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The AIH transcript for July 14, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Powerless. A fire burning near a remote Ojibwe community in Ontario has knocked out electricity, making a bad situation worse for people waiting to evacuate. The chief tells us the province's warnings came far too late.

CH: A choice between worst-case scenarios. A new UN report suggests hundreds of people in Gaza have been killed over a six-week span at or near aid distribution sites. Our guest says that leaves Palestinians there in an impossible situation.

NK: Shelf life. A Librarian says Alberta's new rules for school libraries will rob young people of access to books that speak to their experience.

CH: Branching out. Two years after England's famed Sycamore Gap tree was felled by vandals, an installation featuring a large section of the trunk has been unveiled.

NK: It had its ups and downs. A rollercoaster enthusiast takes us through the chaos and the thrill of riding the just-opened, record-breaking AlpenFury.

CH: And... more like Grandmotherboard, if you yearn for the simple computer pleasures of yesteryear, good news. The new version of the long discontinued Commodore 64 is a real throwback to the future.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition, radio that takes a walk down extremely limited memory lane.

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Part 1: Pikangikum Fire Evacs, Alta School Libraries Folo, Fast Rollercoaster

Pikangikum Fire Evacs

Guest: Paddy Peters

CH: Across Canada, wildfires are burning out of control. In western and northern Canada, fires have forced thousands to flee. And the smoke from those fires has forced officials to declare air quality warnings in Yukon, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec, and Ontario; as of this morning, Toronto was the second-most polluted major city in the world. In northwestern Ontario on the weekend, one Ojibwe community was already dealing with the threat of an encroaching fire -- and then the power went out. Paddy Peters is the chief of Pikangikum First Nation.

NK: Chief, what is the status in terms of power right now?

PADDY PETERS: We have no power to our community.

NK: That's difficult under any circumstances, but what has it meant for people, given that there's a wildfire as well?

PP: It's hard for me to put it in words, but we're in a very difficult situation. Three days ago, the power went out, and we were told it was a lightning strike. But we learned, as of the other day, that it was the fire that took out, burned several Hello! Wooden hydro pools?

NK: How close is the fire right now?

PP: Two days ago, we were told by Ministry of Natural Resources the fire was seven kilometres from the community.

NK: That's close.

PP: That is very close.

NK: As I understand it, about 240 people were able to get out yesterday. They were flown out, but there are hundreds more. The OPP tells our CBC News colleagues as many as 2,000 people overall should leave the community there. Where do things stand right now in terms of getting more people out?

PP: We've been in dialogue with MNR every day to get the fire update. And when the fire was 30 kilometres away, there was ever no mention of our community being warned to get ready for an evacuation. The fire came 25 kilometres, 20 kilometres, 15 kilometres, until three days ago, three or four days ago, when I, the night before, we seen, you know, south of us, the red sky in the night time and we could see flames on top of the tree tops. And she told us to get ready for an evacuation, that she was putting out an evacuation order, stage one and stage two.

NK: The Ministry of Natural Resources is telling you this at that time?

PP: Yes, yes. But at no time did they tell us when the fire was 30 kilometres away.

NK: So, you think the warnings or the orders came too late is what I'm hearing you say.

PP: That's what we're saying as leaders in our community. It was never, they never gave us warning to evacuate.

NK: So now, how do you decide who is getting out and when?

PP: I believe it's nearing 2,000 now, and difficulty comes like finding where people need to be sent.

NK: Where are they going?

PP: Well, we were first told that Toronto and Mississauga area had accepted our people. But as leaders, we appreciated that, but we didn't want to send our people a great distance. We were concerned about the prenatal ladies. There was over 50 that were sent to Sioux Lookout. And the remaining vulnerable were sent to Thunder Bay. And we're still evacuating as of this morning. With the fire, combined with the power outage, has created difficulties in my community. The store that provides essential goods in my community, commercial goods, their power is out. So, we have no store in our community that provides food and other essential necessities to my people.

NK: How much longer can the rest of the community sustain that? I mean, it's so hot in the province right now. In terms of air conditioning, food, and water, as you mentioned, the stores can't stay open. So, how much longer can people deal with that situation, do you think, before they have to leave?

PP: Well, they are. That's why the evacuation has risen. People want to leave my community because a lot of people are running out of food, and a lot children and baby necessities such as milk. And on top of that, people have no lights in their homes. A lot of families are sitting in the dark. Plus, on top of that, a lot people don't have anywhere to cook their meals. We're in a very serious situation right now.

NK: It's such a difficult situation, Chief Peters. You are still there, obviously. You're a leader; you're the leader there. How are you doing?

PP: Yes, I have to be here. I feel that I'm very, very overloaded. But, you know, I have to keep going as a leader. My heart is in pain for all those that are, for all of my people in my community that are suffering. And the way I see it as a leader, this shouldn't have happened. If we would have been warned, like, when the fire was 30 kilometres away, if they would have told us, prepare for an evacuation, we would've been ready. None of this would've happened.

NK: Chief Peters, I appreciate your time in the middle of everything you're dealing with. Please take care.

PP: I'm asking everyone that's listening, and please pray for our community. And we're in a very difficult situation. It's not only our community, the grid line that runs up north is affecting also six other communities. They have no power in their communities. They're probably going through the same difficult situation that we're in, except for a fire. So, that's why I'm requesting prayer. You send your prayers our way.

NK: Chief, thank you for this. Take care.

PP: Okay, thank you.

CH: Paddy Peters is the chief of Pikangikum First Nation. That's where we reached him. We contacted Ontario's Ministry of Natural Resources, which said in a statement that it is, quote, in constant contact with First Nations communities throughout fire season, providing them with updates about conditions and information about fires that could be a danger to their community. However, the decision to evacuate is one that is made by First Nation community leadership. Each community sets its own criteria for the evacuation and return of community members. Supported by information and best advice from the Ministry of Natural Resources. Unquote.

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Alta School Libraries Folo

Guest: Laura Winton

CH: Over the decades, people's back-to-school traditions haven't changed much. But this fall, schools in Alberta are preparing for some fairly significant changes -- when it comes to their libraries. As we told you on the program on Friday, by October 1st, schools across the province will have to ensure that their libraries meet new guidelines released last week by Alberta's Education Minister. Demetrios Nicolaides told us the rules are necessary to make sure kids aren’t exposed to explicit sexual content.

DEMETRIOS NICOLAIDES: Regrettably, we did find examples of this existing in some of our schools, and it's simply not appropriate for underage minor children. This is really, these are really graphic and explicit material. And we need to make sure that students are not exposed to that material.

CH: And Alberta’s premier echoed that message this weekend, during her call-in radio show.

SOUNDCLIP

DANIELLE SMITH: Pornography is a real problem for young adults; it's so accessible. And I don't think seven-year-olds should be exposed to pornographic images. If I am not permitted to describe to you the kind of images that seven-year-olds are seeing because it would offend your audience, then we shouldn't be showing them to seven-years-olds.

CH: Alberta Premier Danielle Smith, speaking this weekend on her radio show, on the station 880 CHED. Laura Winton is a librarian and the past president of the Library Association of Alberta. We reached her in Beaumont, Alberta.

NK: Laura, you've looked at these guidelines, the books, the content, the province is using as examples to make its case. The premier used the word pornography there. What do you make of that characterization?

LAURA WINTON: I would say that that's a gross misrepresentation of certainly the four titles in question. The four titles that have been cited here are award-winning graphic novels. They are in collections for young adults. They have been reviewed by sources like School Library Journal. One of the things that I know the minister likes to say is that even the author of Gender Queer doesn't think it's appropriate for children. But what she has said is that it's not appropriate for small children, but that is certainly appropriate for teenagers.

NK: But his assertion was that even if it's not meant for younger children, it's in the same library, and they could just pull it off the shelf. And if it is not appropriate for them at any age, it shouldn't be on that shelf.

LW: I mean, what I would say is, and I've asked the minister this, is there actually any evidence that anybody in an elementary school has access to these titles? And he has said, no, there's no evidence of that. It is certainly true that if we're talking about a K-12 school, these materials could be in a young adult graphic novel section. But the way libraries are put together is that there are different sections and areas, and material is divided based on age appropriateness and age categories. And you're not, you're just not going to see grade ones wandering into the YA graphic novel section of the library. And the teachers and the librarians are not going to direct those children to those books. And if they brought them up to the counter, they would say, oh gee, sweetie, that might not be the right book for you, and direct you to more appropriate content.

NK: The education minister said that according to his numbers, a majority of Albertans believe graphic sexual content should not be accessible to minors. So, nudity, oral sex, other sexual imagery. We heard from listeners who heard that interview with the minister and agreed, so what would you say to people who are listening, parents of young children who say, well, this sounds reasonable. Of course, I don't want my child to look at that stuff.

LW: So, the four titles in question here are not books that any librarian would place on an elementary school shelf. It doesn't go in our picture book collections. It goes appropriately in a teen collection. I also think it's easy to boil these books down to books that contain graphic sexual content. But again, what we're talking about here in these graphic novels is award-winning coming-of-age stories that are really sensitively dealing with difficult topics for teens. And some of those difficult topics for teens are absolutely sexuality. And so, they are appropriately placed in YA collections and not in elementary school collections.

NK: Many of the critics of this order and what the education minister is doing here say they're very concerned that this, based on the books the province used to make its case, is about sidelining or even erasing 2SLGBTQ+ stories. The minister spoke not directly in response to that, but more broadly about different perspectives. Here's a bit more of what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

DEMETRIOS NICOLAIDES: It's important to make sure that we have material that strikes the right balance between conveying different experiences and different stories and doing that in an age-appropriate way.

NK: What do you make of the education minister there? Is there a way to make sure a broad range of perspectives are available to all students with less, as they put it, graphic detail?

LW: What we know is that these concerns were initially brought to the minister by groups like Action for Canada. These are explicitly religious and right-wing organizations that have launched campaigns against libraries across Canada to have 2SLGBTQ+ materials removed from school libraries. So, I'm deeply concerned that organizations like that are directing government policy at this point. And I think it really opens the door for lots of problems. But I mean, I guess the other thing that I would say is it is incredibly important that we have diverse representations and representations in school libraries that reflect the real struggles that children are facing and that teens are facing. And that may relate to gender identity. It's certainly for most teens who will relate to sexuality. This is a time where they're figuring out their own gender expression and their own way through what sex is and how to interpret and understand their own sexuality. And having thoughtful resources to do that is so important. The minister is fond of quoting Maia Kobabe, who is the author of Gender Queer. And she has a beautiful quote about this. She says, many books that are being challenged often wrestle with a difficult topic like historical atrocities, or experiences of racism, or something dealing with sexual health. In my opinion, books are one of the safest places to encounter that information for the first time. I would rather young readers encounter information in books than in random, unstructured Googling. And I think that's really an important thing to think about. These books are giving children opportunities to encounter information and depictions of sexual development and potentially their own sexuality in thoughtful, compassionate portraits that are in context. And that's the dream for most parents, I would think. It is for me.

NK: We know that the province is not going to give schools any more money to make these changes. How do you imagine all of this playing out?

LW: I mean, I pretty frantically and [chuckling] with great difficulty. We know that September is the busiest month in the school year, and this is also a particularly [chuckling] difficult September in Alberta schools because we're looking at potentially 36,000-plus teachers going on strike. So, I just think it's unrealistic to think this is going to be a very simple thing. And not providing funding and resources to do it is setting schools up for failure. And frankly, distracting from much more important work that schools and teachers need to be doing.

NK: And I wanted to end, Laura, with the same question I asked the minister during our conversation on Friday. What was one book that you read as a student that helped shape who you are today?

LW: Gosh, I mean certainly lots of them. I wasn't a teen at the time. I was in my early years of university, but actually, Blankets, one of the books that is on the list, was really impactful for me. It is ultimately a story, or I thought at the time that it was a story about young love, and first love, and first loss of love. And what it is like when that is also part of your first sexual experiences. And it had a huge impact on me and sort of finding my own way through all of that.

NK: Laura, I'm very glad we could speak. Thank you for your time.

LW: Awesome, thanks so much.

CH: Laura Winton is a librarian and the past president of the Library Association of Alberta. We reached her in Beaumont, Alberta.

[hip-hop]

Fast Rollercoaster

Guest: Jordan Randall

CH: This Saturday, for the first time, the gates opened on the AlpenFury -- the longest, fastest, tallest launch rollercoaster in all of North America. But before there were screams, and heaving into garbage cans, [NK laughs] there was sweat -- and perhaps even a few tears -- as thrill-seekers descended in droves on the Canada's Wonderland amusement park just north of Toronto. And among them was Jordan Randall, a rollercoaster superfan who has been documenting the progress of the ride's construction for months now on his YouTube Channel. We reached Jordan Randall in Bentley Lake, Ontario.

NK: Jordan, obviously, you love rollercoasters. You get excited to ride rollercosters, but knowing that you would be able to sit on it and ride it [both chuckle], for you personally, as a roller coaster fan, what was that like?

JORDAN RANDALL: I mean, it was surreal. This is, you know, one of the most highly-anticipated coaster openings around the world for this year. This is, you know, it's a record-breaking coaster; nine inversions. For anyone that's a roller coaster enthusiast, or like adrenaline junkie, it's a big deal. I think the best word to describe it is relentless. It is nonstop thrills from the moment it leaves the station to moment it comes back into the station. It's a launch coaster, so it doesn't, you know, climb up in ascension and then drop you down using momentum. It actually has mechanisms that fires it off, like it launches you out of the station into Wonder Mountain, where they have pyrotechnics and a secondary launch that shoots you vertically into the air for this massive drop. And after that, it is just loop after loop, barrel roll after barrel roll. It's hard to really make sense of it when it's happening because it's so wild.

NK: [chuckling] Because your brain is being shaken relentlessly in your head. [JR chuckles]

JR: Exactly, yeah, but it is a sensation like no other. I ended up, you know, there was a long line for it, and ended up kinda making friends with the guy behind me in the line. And when the ride was over, we both actually shared a hug with each other because it was just such an amazing experience.

NK: Oh!

JR: And I think that also, in part, was due to the fact that we had to wait a very long time to get on the ride itself.

NK: Let's talk about, though, that long line. [JR chuckles] Because there were some reports of technical difficulties as well and then the long line. How long did you wait?

JR: So, uh, from the, uh, park entrance -- the parking lot to me getting on the ride -- it took four-and-a-half hours. So, it was a pretty long time. But other people did wait longer. I did hear about people waiting up to seven hours to get on the ride.

NK: What?!!!

JR: [chuckling] Yeah. So, it was a bit of a mess. I mean, you know, it's opening day. It was kind of to be expected that there'd be a bit of chaos with all this hype around and the ride opening.

NK: Forget AlpenFury. In that kind of heat that we were having in the GTA, I'm sure a lot of people were furious.

JR: It was more fury than alpen, for sure, yeah.

NK: And how long is the ride?

JR: So the ride is -- from start to finish -- about a-minute-and-20 seconds.

NK: [chuckling] Was it worth it? You know I'm gonna ask you that.

JR: [chuckling]Uh, yeah. It seems a little wild to say, but it was worth every minute. Now, I can't speak for everybody. I know that there's a lot of people in the line that were getting pretty exhausted and pretty burned out with that scorching heat. There's not a lot of shade. Actually, really, there was no shade at all in the line. There's two oscillating fans with misters, with mist machines on them. And, yeah, it really wasn't helping that the rid broke down for like an hour in the middle of that. So, a lot of people left, bailed on the line because they just couldn't take it any longer. But at the same time, it was kind of funny because a lot of the people that stuck around, they almost kind of experienced, like, a trauma bond with each other. Because, like, it kind of felt like being like a rotisserie chicken, you know? Because, like, the line was like a --

NK: It sounds like a barrel of laughs there, Jordan. [JR chuckle] I like roller coasters, but that does not sound fun. What was the technical issue? And were you in line when that was happening? Or you had you already --

JR: Yeah, I was in line, unfortunately. Yeah, it was one of those things where it's like everyone kind of, you know, had this fear, like, is it going to even get back up running? How long is this delay gonna be? How long are we willing to wait for it to come back? Of course, I don't know exactly, like, what went wrong with those technical issues. But at the same time, you know, whenever a roller coaster gets stopped for technical issues, it's kind of a double-edged sword in a sense that it's not great for the people that are waiting for the ride. But at the same time, it means that the security protocols are in place and they are making it as safe as possible, which is also comforting. And also, following the construction of the ride for two months, I was able to see how many tests they had to do. They had to about 2,000 tests without any actual riders -- like human riders -- in the roller coaster trains. They use crash test dummies. And so, there was a lot of testing done beforehand, so I did feel safe and secure.

NK: I think I know the answer to this question, are you going to hop on the AlpenFury again?

JR: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'm out of town right now, but I get back tomorrow night. So, Wednesday morning, first thing, I am going to be on AlpenFury.

NK: Just a cup of coffee and a roller coaster ride.

JR: [chuckling] That's what you need to start your day. [both chuckle]

NK: Why do you think you love roller coasters so much? What is it about them that has captivated you for so long?

JR: So, I mean, I think everybody's going to have a different response to this. But me personally, I think, you know, it's like an adrenaline rush. I think whenever you do something that's kind of, quote/unquote, death-defying, when people go skydiving or bungee jumping and stuff like that, you're kind of living on the edge. You get that endorphin rush. I think with roller coasters, there's a sense of security when they're made by these world-renowned professional companies that I personally don't feel, if I'm going to go bungee-jumping or something, I feel like there's a lot more variables. So, to get that sensation of doing something death-defying, but also feeling safe in doing that, I think that's the appeal, for me at least.

NK: I'm glad we could speak, Jordan. Thank you for this.

JR: Yeah, no problem.

CH: Jordan Randall is a rollercoaster enthusiast and YouTuber. We reached him at Bentley Lake, Ontario.

[R&B]

Peter Jackson Moa

CH: Kay, let's play a game. I'll describe an extinct ostrich-like bird from New Zealand and then I'll guess what you're thinking. Ready? Okay, it was over flightless, over three metres tall with a powerful beak, strong legs, and sharp claws. Think of them as cousins of the cassowary, aka the world's most dangerous bird. And what you are thinking is: we should bring them back to life! Was I right? Of course not. And also, I didn't think that. But we aren't visionaries. And Lord of the Rings director Peter Jackson is. He's obsessed with the extinct monster birds called "moa". To the point where he wants to "de-extinct" them. And not in a fun CGI kind of way, but in a real-life kind of way. Mr. Jackson has given $10 million dollars U.S. to Colossal Biosciences to start working on that. Colossal is the biotech company that claimed to have brought back the dire wolf not long ago. But actually -- as critics point out -- Colossal didn't bring back an extinct species so much as genetically alter a current species to resemble the extinct species. Although I don't think I'd care about that distinction if they do manage to produce a flightless bird that's taller than I am, even when I'm standing on Nil's shoulders, [NK laughs] and has a beak that could crunch through my femur like a baby carrot. Colossal says these are very early days, and it remains to be seen whether they'll be able to actually do it. There's also the problem of what will happen if they do do it. Looks like whether they do or don't, that idea is not gonna fly.

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Part 2: Gaza Aid Killings, U.K. Sycamore Gap Tree Folo

Gaza Aid Killings

Guest: Ellen Gabriel

CH: Yesterday, six children who went to get some water at a water distribution point in Gaza were killed by an Israeli missile. The Israeli military says it intended to hit an Islamic Jihad militant in the area, but a malfunction caused the missile to miss its target. It says it's reviewing the incident. A new report from the United Nations Human Rights Office suggests these kinds of attacks are all too common. Over a six-week span, ending July 7th, the agency found that 798 people were killed in Gaza, at or near aid distribution sites. That includes 615 people in the vicinity of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation sites. Ajith Sunghay is the Head of the UN Human Rights Office in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. We reached him in Amman.

NK: Ajith, these latest deaths, this latest strike on a water distribution site in Nuseirat, what have your colleagues on the ground been able to tell you about what happened?

AJITH SUNGHAY: It is emblematic in a way of what we have seen over the past 21 months of this assault on Gaza. There are plenty of such strikes that have happened that has impacted and killed, injured civilians -- including women and children -- in Gaza. It's interesting to see the IDF has responded, admitting that there was a fault. That's important. I think it's important that they have investigated and reviewed it. The question is what comes after that? We want to see two things. One, of course, a review and correction of the rules of engagement, and how they are acting on the ground. And this is not the only strike. Three days ago, there was another strike where another group of children who were waiting to take supplements were killed. There was a killing of a group of people near the cafe about 10 days ago where 40 others were killed. So, death due to strikes is a huge issue. The second point that we would also want to see is accountability. What happens to people who are in charge and who are responsible for such strikes and such violations of international human rights and humanitarian law? And we don't see much coming out of that.

NK: You know, when we talk about these hundreds and hundreds of people being killed around aid distribution sites, what are Palestinians in Gaza telling you? What are your staff members there telling you about the kinds of choices people are having to make right now?

AS: It's very difficult. I mean, to be honest with you, we are lost for words to describe how things are in Gaza. Two-point-two million people are suffering, and not necessarily all dying, but in different ways. In that background -- against that background -- we see, and I have to say, you know, before the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation stepped in to distribute food, there were 400 places -- 400 centres -- where the UN and its partners were distributing food. That is for 2.2 million people. That's been reduced to about four centres. And now, three centres in the last few days. We're talking about 700,000 people squeezed into each centre trying to get food. It is chaotic, and people are being shot. And this has happened over the last six weeks. We see 700-plus people who have been shot and killed while trying to get food. They are not a threat to the Israeli Defense Force. So, why are they being shot? This is a crowd control issue. So, you can imagine, after six weeks, when people have been shot and killed every day trying to get food, they still go. And that is because their choices are just to either starve and die, or go to these places, struggle, step on each other, fight for this meagre resource, and get shot. And that's a very, very difficult choice to make. And they say we know the risk, but we will take that risk. We'd rather die one way or the other. So, it's that desperate.

NK: As you may have seen, the GHF told Reuters that the figures from the UN were, quote, false and misleading, and that most deadly attacks on eight sites have been linked to UN convoys, unquote. How do you respond to what the GHF is saying?

AS: There are a couple of things. I mean, of course, we have very clearly drawn a distinction between those who were killed at the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation centres and those who were running towards trucks being brought in by the UN or bilaterally by other countries. So, about 650 or so killed at these centres and a hundred and odd around these UN/bilateral, you know, support trucks. It's not about the blame game about who is, you know, providing food alone. It is about why are these people being shot? Why is there chaos? First of all, there's not enough humanitarian aid inside Gaza. Second, we have reduced the number of distribution points. Third, we should question the IDF, why they are shooting? We have to go back. The Israeli Defense Force has actually admitted to have shooten people, and they have admitted to having killed people. And they have opened investigations into this. So, to outrightly reject by GHF and dismiss our concerns is not appropriate. So, we have solid information on the numbers, but we again call for full investigation on the circumstances of such events. And it's not one incident. So, there are plenty of these things that have happened. It's time that there is a serious review and serious investigation into this.

NK: We've had several guests on the program now talking about these GHF sites. What at this point -- after all these incidents -- what will change the reality for people there?

AS: Look, I mean, we really have to change the way we are providing humanitarian aid. I mean we have a method. The UN has been doing this for months now. Let us do the work. We have a formula. We have trucks outside. We have every kind of needed, necessary humanitarian aid to take in, whether it's food, the fuel, chlorine for water, medicine, so on and so forth. We need pressure. End of the day, we need pressure from member states on Israel to allow the UN to do, and other humanitarian entities that work with us, to do our job. And there is a formula. I mean, it's not that we are not used to this. We have done this job everywhere in the world, and we're doing it here too. We were doing it. I mean, in ceasefire times, I don't want to get into counting trucks, but we have taken 800 trucks on a single day. And that is possible. I mean, not just the UN, but our partners, et cetera. So, taking in humanitarian aid and distributing is possible, and that will reduce chaos and that will reduce, you know, the desperate situation there. But at this stage, we are really struggling.

NK: Ajith, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

AS: Thanks a lot. Thank you for having me.

CH: Ajith Sunghay is the Head of UN human rights office in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. He's in Amman.

[R&B]

U.K. Sycamore Gap Tree Folo

Guest: Charlie Whinney

CH: Once again, as in days of yore -- and maybe even a little before yore -- the famed Sycamore Gap tree is standing in northeast England, just a few kilometres from where it grew for 150 years. A section of the trunk more than two metres long is now on permanent display at Northumberland National Park’s The Sill: Landscape Discovery Centre. We've been covering this story on our show for years now. The tree, along Hadrian's Wall, was the site of marriage proposals and picnics. It was featured in the 1991 film Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves and in many, many photographs. Then, in 2023, it was illegally cut down. Two men were found guilty; they're expected to be sentenced tomorrow. Charlie Whinney is an artist in the area who was tasked with coming up with the installation featuring the tree, after public consultation. We reached him in Witherslack, England.

NK: Charlie, as an artist, of course, when you finish a work, you step back, you take a look at it, but this is a collaboration between you and what was left of this beautiful and beloved tree. So, when you stepped back this time to see it standing again in this way, how did that feel?

CHARLIE WHINNEY: You know, it was so strange. The actual moment when the tree became vertical for the first time, and bare in mind, I never saw the tree when it was growing. For me, it had always been, like, for about a year, I'd had it in my life as a horizontal log. And I'd already done one show at The Sill. This is my second show there. And before, we had it as a horizontal log laid out. And we had a public consultation process with people. And then, I had it again in my studio. I'm a professional maker and woodworker. I am definitely not, like, a sentimental person with trees, especially. And yeah, it was actually a very strange and really lovely moment to have it vertical and have it in the same way as a growing tree would be. It was kind of, and with the knowledge that this is gonna be there for the people who loved it. It was really interesting and very unusual.

NK: I've looked at pictures. There's more than what is left of the tree, obviously. There is your work surrounding it. Can you describe what it all looks like when people approach?

CW: So basically, from a distance, it looks kind of a bit like a kind of like a tangle of kind of, like, woody, kind of steam-bent curved branches. And then, as you get closer, what you see is there are actually three benches, which have these kind of branchy tree-like parts coming out of it, which grow above where the tree is. And then, if you look down, you can see they're actually growing on the edges of three stainless steel circles. And then, all of the word and the stainless steel on the ground, and also, there are these kind of frond-like, ferny growths above it as well. They're all made of words. So, there are words, words, words all over the place. Um, and with our work with with the local community, and researching the tree, um, I very much felt like the tree should be represented, you know, in a word form because the tree kind of existed within the human world. And, you know, as a meme and as an idea.

NK: What kinds of words, what kinds of words do you feature?

CW: Okay, so what it is, it's a bit like a game, or it's like a branching poem. So, what we did is we took, I think probably about 80 per cent of all the words on there are actually one-to-one quotes -- like direct quotes -- from things that people have said after the tree came down. So things in the visitors' book, or online, or they had like a kind of notice, like, post-it notice board wall near where the tree grew, and also in conversations with notes that we wrote down. And they're things that people have said, and we've basically re-framed and reconfigured it into this giant poem, and because it branches a bit like a tree, you can have a starting point. But then as you go up the canopy and you're reading the sentences, you then make decisions where you choose, like the left or right fork, and then you get a different sentence, and then it keeps branching. So the idea, as you read the sculpture, I suppose, you also create your own kind of poem as well. And because the tree meant so many different things to different people, we wanted to kind of show that and represent it in some way within the work.

NK: That's so beautiful. Is there a phrase or part of it? It's probably hard to pick, but I didn't see those post-it notes, and many of our listeners likely did not either. So, what are some of the phrases that they might see?

CW: You know, I'm actually going there tomorrow and adding some extra, but I've got some ones here. So, these are all one-to-one quotes, so they're all a bit tangled up. So the one I've just picked out when it says, wind, rain, and sleet. So, these the ones where they're the end, these are the last lines of poems. From a tree, who would have thought? Someone said that. Our actions have consequences. Praying for new growth, this one says. The sadness across this land will be healed. These are just things that people wrote, and these ones are all either the beginnings or the end. The bits I've got here are these kind of flimsy bits that go with the very top of the work, and they look like kind of fine branches.

NK: And we should be clear that the wood used to make your installation and your sculpture, your carvings, is not wood from the tree that cut down at all.

CW: Early on in the process, we decided to basically only use, not to use any sycamore timber in the actual sculpture. The reason being that the people who know their woods will see the sycamore and then they'll think that's part of the Sycamore Gap tree, whereas we were requested by the National Trust, who owned the log, not to cut into the log and to not use it.

NK: The interactive nature of it, the sort of choose your own adventure, choose your own branch or poem, is quite lovely. It's huggable. [chuckle]

CW: The whole thing's supposed to be interactive. Yeah, yeah, having something that you can touch as well.

NK: Why was that so important, the fact that people could hug it and touch it still? Because so much of, so many artworks you can't get close to, right?

CW: That's what they wanted. In the first show we did, which was at the one year anniversary, my colleague Nick and I, we were in the gallery with the log for about a week, and we just chatted to people and we said, this is your log, what's important, when it comes back, what do you want, and what do care about, and how should it be? We had loads and loads of different ideas, many of which have found their way into the final work. But one common idea that there was nobody said that it wasn't important for them to be able to touch it and to access it. And they didn't want it behind glass. So, we're monitoring bark loss. And we've got like a plan B, and a plan C, and a plan D of like what to do. But yeah, we are going to, the idea is that people can come in and it's their tree. And then they can, I mean the thing is the tree's regrowing, so this is like their log from the tree that was there. You can go to Sycamore Gap, it's still an amazing place to visit, and it's next to the Roman, you know, Hadrian's Wall, and then they can see all the new growths and the new places where the trees regrow, which is kind of quite beautiful, but they can also see the log from the previous tree and understand some of the legacy and the story behind that tree in the visitor centre.

NK: It really does sound beautiful, Charlie. I'm glad we could speak about it. Thank you.

CW: You're very welcome.

CH: That was artist Charlie Whinney in Witherslack, England.

[plucked instrumental]

FOA: Rubix’s Cube Ruling

CH: There's the Rubik's Cube -- the one we all know and love… or know. And then there's the upstart Greek company's rival rotational puzzle -- V-CUBE. And last week, the owners of V-CUBE won a victory over Rubik's Cube's parent company, Spin Master Toys, in Europe's second-highest court. The court quashed Spin Master's trademarks related to the shape of its iconic puzzle. That shape being, if memory serves, a cube. Yeah. In the ruling, the court said the shape should not have been registered by the EU trademark office. It's not the first time the Rubik's Cube has faced challenges. Back in 1982, it was sued by Larry Nichols, who claimed that he, not Hungarian professor Erno Rubik, was the true inventor. From Our Archives here is former As It Happens host Dennis Trudeau talking to Mr. Nichols about his lawsuit.

SOUNDCLIP

LARRY NICHOLS: Well, it feels pretty bad at this point. The one saving grace, I suppose, in the whole thing is that my original intention in thinking about games and puzzles, which has always been a hobby with me, was to help people have a good time and enjoy themselves with a challenging puzzle, and that much at least has come to pass. But that's about the only silver lining in the cloud that I can see right now.

DENNNIS TRUDEAU: Well, I don't know if everyone would say that doing a Rubik's Cube is having a good time, but we'll leave that aside. Can you describe what your original cube puzzle looked like?

LN: Well, my original concept, of course, existed just in my head. And it was a set of cubes twisting around each other in space in the way that everyone is terribly familiar with at this point in time. The first successful models that I made some years later because it wasn't something at the time that I was pursuing with any great thought of commercialization was held together with small magnets, so that the same kind of twisting motion that we see in the so-called Rubik's Cube was still possible. And it was also a lot easier to get back to the starting position so that you could try to figure out where things went wrong, which -- at least in my own hands -- is a definite virtue.

DT: Did you get a patent on this idea?

LN: Well, actually, I had the idea back in the early 60s, and it was the late 60s before I had a model that I was really very satisfied with, and I showed it to Dr. Obermeyer, who's the president of Moleculon here, where I work as a research chemist. And he was the one who suggested that it might indeed have commercial merit, and that we should both pursue a patent on the device and talk to some firms that might be interested in commercializing it. And we did file for and receive a patent then in 1972, which is still valid and is assigned to Moleculon.

DT: And did you try to market the idea or the cube?

LN: That's correct.

DT: What happened?

LN: A lot of initial interest, no bottom line type interest with the various companies that we showed it to for a variety of reasons. I think basically none of the people that we talked to realized the ultimate commercial potential of the device. And they were choosing between a variety or novelty items, and they made a bad choice at that point in time as history has shown.

CH: From 1982, host Dennis Trudeau speaking to Larry Nichols about his lawsuit against the company that made the Rubik's Cube. That lawsuit was not resolved until 1985, when a court ruled that Mr. Nichol's patient had been infringed -- except only as it related to the 2 x 2 x 2 cube -- not the vastly more popular 3 x 3 x 3 cube.

[calypso]

New Commodore 64

CH: The early '80s weren't just a crucial time for the home computer. It was also a crucial time for combining exciting developments in computing with exciting developments in music.

SOUNDCLIP

[a very 80's glam rock ad song]

MAN: [singing] Woke up, opened up the door to play games with my 64. But there was Mom with the aliens. Suzzie catching up on the math she'd missed. I'd play music; a little rock [guitar squeal] But Dad's charting his favourite stock. The Commodore 64 is great to use to play and explore. Especially when I get my turn.

ANNOUNCER: The World of Commodore, International Centre Toronto, November 29th through December 2nd.

CH: A powerful ad for the World of Commodore computer expo in 1984. Can we just hear the part about Susie again?

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: [singing] Suzzie catching up on the math she'd missed.

CH: Really, really stirring. Some might say too stirring, given the subject matter. But that incongruously passionate vocal reflected the passion that people felt for the Commodore 64. At the time, the best-selling computer in the world. And in fact, according to Guinness World Records, the best-selling desktop computer of all time. If you grew up in that era, you probably look back fondly at that more innocent time. A time before the Internet, when you were a kid playing blocky 8-bit games you'd loaded from cassettes, or a parent compiling a simple household budget, or --

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: [singing] Suzzie catching up on the math she'd missed.

CH: Exactly. Well, here's something to look forward to while also looking backward: the people who now run Commodore -- which has changed hands a number of times since it filed for bankruptcy in 1994 -- want to sell you a brand-new Commodore 64. A new model which is essentially the old model -- and will be compatible with all the old programs and games that you and your parents and Susie loved back in the '80s. "This isn't tech that controls you," the website tells us, "It invites you to play, learn, and create - just like it used to." We'll see if it delivers. And if your family is nostalgic, you might consider picking one up for your mom or dad. Or --

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: [singing] Suzzie. Suzzie.

CH: See, right.

The AIH Transcript For July 14, 2025

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