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The AIH transcript for July 16, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Unsafe space. A Canadian judge halts the deportation of a non-binary American because of the current climate in the U.S. -- a decision that could open the door to gender-diverse people who fear persecution.

CH: Surprise attacks. Israel launches airstrikes on Damascus as sectarian violence engulfs southern Syria. Our guest says she's lost contact with her parents, who live there, in the midst of a conflict they want no part of.

NK: Step up -- or step down. After weeks of anti-government protests in Kenya -- and the deaths of dozens of protesters -- an opposition leader tells us it's time for the country's president to resign.

CH: A transporting experience. An artist and historian explains his quest to convert a Greyhound bus into a museum celebrating the history of African-American migration -- a history that includes his own family's journey.

NK: A sense of Wonder. There's a persistent half-joke, half-conspiracy theory that Stevie Wonder is not actually blind. So persistent that he finally felt he had to address the rumours onstage.

CH: And...research what the cat dragged in. A scientist reveals the identity of a collaborator who's helped with the discovery of two new viruses: his pet cat Pepper -- who not only catches small wild mammals harbouring them, but delivers them to his door.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday Edition. Radio that hopes he's getting a purr diem.

[theme]

Part 1: LGBTQ+ Deportation Halted, Kenyan Oppo. Leader, Greyhound Bus Museum

LGBTQ+ Deportation Halted

Guest: Sarah Mikhail

CH: A federal judge has halted the deportation of a non-binary American citizen -- citing Donald Trump's America. Angel Jenkel came to Canada in 2022, and was set to be deported back to the U.S. this month after overstaying their visitor visa. But the day before their departure, Justice Julie Blackhawk ruled that the immigration officer that carried out their pre-removal risk assessment had failed to consider the current conditions for gender-diverse people in the U.S. Since President Trump's inauguration in January, he has repeatedly targeted 2SLGBTQ+ Americans with a slew of executive orders. And because of that, there have been calls in Canada to provide a safe haven for those who fear prosecution. This decision by Justice Blackhawk is believed to be the first of its kind to take that into account. Sarah Mikhail is a lawyer with Smith Immigration Law; she represents Angel Jenkel. We reached Ms. Mikhail in Ottawa.

NK: Sarah, what have you heard from Angel at this point? How do they feel about this decision and this result?

SARAH MIKHAIL: This decision was a huge relief for Angel. I believe there was so much uncertainty that was leading into this, and so much concern about returning back to the United States given what the conditions are and how they're presently changing very quickly and becoming much more difficult to live in as a non-binary American.

NK: Justice Blackhawk, to let our listeners know, found that the immigration officer who assessed Angel's case relied on outdated information that does not address how trans and gender-diverse people are being treated in the United States right now. That kind of acknowledgement, what kind of domino effect could that have or do you and Angel hope it might have?

SM: The way that we've kind of interpreted what Justice Blackhawk was saying there and the effect that we're thinking might result from this is that it's a marked recognition that the conditions have deteriorated and that there has been a change since the Biden administration has left office. Now, again, risk assessments are all individualized, and it's hard to say the way that this might impact person-by-person as it is going to ultimately come down to the facts. But with this recognition that the conditions in the United States have changed in the way that they have, it's really an exciting precedent to see, to almost assert that this has to be assessed now. And that these changes are significant enough that when assessing trans and non-binary individuals' circumstances in Canada, that this is something that needs to be taken into consideration.

NK: How does a decision like this -- or what is happening in the United States broadly on this issue -- how does that information trickle down to individual immigration officers? Obviously, as you said, it will be case-by-case for everyone, but are they getting briefings? Are they -- apart from their own knowledge of what's happening in the world -- how does that get to them to inform or not inform their decisions?

SM: So, immigration officers in Canada, when they're assessing an individual applicant, they have a resource available to them called the National Documentation Package for each country. Now, in this matter, the United States's National Documentation Package had last been updated in January, 2024. And so, it's noted that that was part of what the issue was here, was that these immigration officers didn't have updated information in the national documentation package. And that this other information that you know we're all paying attention to because of what's happening in the States, that wasn't sought out and assessed.

NK: Your client, we should mention, did not initially come to Canada thinking they would seek asylum, but they did let their visitor visa expire. They overstayed that visa. If they were sent back to the United States, what specifically were they most concerned about? What were they worried about?

SM: Yeah, I think in ancient circumstance, it is very difficult because the changes in the United States are deteriorating and changing so quickly that there was so much uncertainty about what's going to happen day-to-day, by day. Whether there'd be further restrictions on movement, on using identity documents, on being able to exist and identify as a nonbinary person. And there was so much concern about where things were going. That ultimately did create the basis for this fear. And then, with regards to some of the harm that Angel was facing with return, they're also the primary caregiver for their Canadian fiance, who does have a significant seizure disorder, unfortunately. So, that also factored into the harm that Justice Blackhawk found was present in this matter.

NK: Back in February, some of our listeners may remember, we spoke with your colleague, Adrienne Smith, about the calls she was already receiving every single day, emails as well, from Americans who were thinking about seeking asylum in Canada after Donald Trump's inauguration. I asked her at that point if she could imagine a time where she would recommend clearly that they do that? Here's what she told us.

SOUNDCLIP

ADRRIENNE SMITH: A month ago, I would say no. And in the future, I'm in a wait-and-see situation. I'm not opposed to it yet. What I need to do is I need monitor what's going to be happening at the individual state level. Because in order to meet the requirements to be found to be a refugee in Canada, refugees have to show that they're not safe in any part of their country.

NK: That was five months ago, before this case. As you likely know, just recently a transgender woman did apply for asylum in Canada. That woman's case is still pending, but have we reached that point that we were talking about with Adrianne? Should the U.S. be considered a dangerous place for trans and gender-diverse Americans?

SM: Yeah, I think it's a difficult question because I agree with Adrienne in the sense that everything is changing, and we are really taking it day by day. But as Adrienne said, there's a legal test that has to be applied to state that somebody has to be at risk everywhere in the United States in order to be found a refugee in Canada. And at this point, we're not advising people to file for asylum claims necessarily, but the circumstances are changing so quickly that it's really hard to say that it is not going to get there in the future.

NK: She told us that, you know, she'd be surprised if a day went by without at least one phone call about this issue. Is that still the case now? Has that increased?

SM: I would say it's still the case.

NK: So, this decision means that Angel's deportation will be paused, their case will get a judicial review. What is your sense of the chances that they might be deported in the end, regardless of what Justice Blackhawk decided?

SM: It's a really difficult circumstance at this time to be able to comment on. There's so many moving parts. The federal court process can be very long, so it can be a bit down the line that we'll be finding out. But at this point, all we can do is remain hopeful and continue with the case.

NK: Sarah, I appreciate this. Thank you for your time.

SM: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

CH: Sarah Mikhail is a lawyer for Smith Immigration Law. She was in Ottawa.

[newsy theme]

Kenyan Oppo. Leader

Guest: Stephen Kalonzo Musyoka

CH: Frustration is ramping up in Kenya. And the government is cracking down. As we've told you on the program, the past month has seen major protests against the government and police brutality. According to the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights, more than fifty people have died in demonstrations since June 17th -- many of them young people, and many of them killed by police. This is what President William Ruto said after 38 people were killed last week.

SOUNDCLIP

WILLIAM RUTO: Those who attack our police, those who attack our security men and women, those who attack our security installations, including police stations, that is a declaration of war, that is terrorism. We are going to deal with you firmly. Enough is enough. You can call me whatever names you want to call me, but I will make sure that there is peace and stability in Kenya by all means possible.

CH: In the same speech, President Ruto said in Swahili that police should shoot at protestors. Stephen Kalonzo Musyoka is the leader of the Wiper Democratic Movement, one of Kenya's opposition parties. We reached him in Nairobi.

NK: Stephen Kalonzo Musyoka, do you believe the president there? Do you take him at his word?

STEPHEN KALONZO MUSYOKA: What the president did declaring war on young Kenyans, innocent young people who only want to see adherence to the country's constitution. And the head of state goes on to declare war on them and to call them terrorists, that is really the height of arrogance. And, in my view, it is an impeachable offence.

NK: What is it like in Nairobi today on the streets?

SKM: Well, Nairobi is calm at the moment. Kenyans truly believe in the rule of law, but we are dealing with a rogue administration. And all because in 2024, young Kenyans, Generation Z, took to the streets in accordance with the provisions of the constitution. Kenyans have the right to picket, to demonstrate. They have a right even to lobby parliament itself. And when they came out to lobby parliament against enacting legislation, which are the effect of attacks on Kenyans, then the state came out heavily on them. A lot of them were killed because of the moment they are through with the street demonstrations. They revert to their normal life. So, the city of Nairobi is calm. It's quite calm, because they don't want to be shot in the legs by this president.

NK: Earlier today, you posted on social media that youth leaders from the Democratic Congress Party, the DCP, and about 40 young protesters were granted bail despite the government's push to keep them behind bars. What does that suggest to you? Does it give you hope that the justice system, in part, is functioning as it should?

SKM: Yes, yes, and no, because each one -- 104 were released today -- are required to pay 50,000 Kenya shillings. The majority of them -- in fact, all of them are unemployed youths. So, we are going to have to fundraise to get them at least out of custody, out of police custody. And please notice that they are held in the maximum security prison, known as Committee. So, this is a country that is very angry, by the way. And I can tell you the majority of Kenyans cannot wait to throw out this administration in a democratic manner.

NK: You've also been attending funerals for people who've been killed at these protests, including 22-year-old Boniface Kariuki; hundreds of others were there. You spoke with his family. What did you say to them?

SKM: Well, I had, of course, to condone with them. But Boniface Kariuki was shot on the head. And his only crime was he was selling masks to those who had tears or getting tear-gassed. And for that, a rogue police officer, obviously acting on instructions from his superiors, just went on to shoot directly in the head. So, you can imagine the trauma in the family. He was the first-born in that family. And we saw them, and they were really very seriously negatively affected. So Kenyans, and even yesterday, we attended another funeral in a place called Kiambu, where a young schoolgirl, age 12 years, Bridget, was getting buried yesterday. And she was hit by a police bullet while she was actually in the family's home watching cartoons on television. And a stray bullet just went straight, hit her on the head, and also killed her. So, this is a country that is depressed at the moment, and we hope that all these cases will be documented. And we're even considering, if they continue, then we may have even to engage the International Criminal Court.

NK: We've reached out to the Kenyan government for a statement. We have not, as we speak, received a response yet. It does not appear that the president will heed the calls that you and others are making. It doesn't appear that he's going to resign. So, if you look ahead to 2027, and the general election that is scheduled for that time, what will you be doing to ensure the opposition does what it needs to do if it wants to defeat him?

SKM: We will make sure that we defeat him at the ballot, decisively. We will also make sure, even with the support of, I think, the international community because Kenya is an important country in our region. And I don't think that anybody would want to see this country going to the dogs. We are putting together a very strong opposition, and I have no doubt in my mind that in a free and democratic election, William Ruto will perhaps even have to resign before the ballot is taken.

NK: I spoke back in June with a protestor in Nairobi. Her name is Sophie Mugura Njihiya. Here's a bit of what she told us.

SOUNDCLIP

SOPHIE MUGURA NJIHIYA: We're willing to risk a lot because this government has proven to us that they are not afraid of killing us. And if they don't kill us physically, then they kill our hope and they kill our dreams.

NK: What do you say to young people who you speak with -- or might be listening there -- who've lost their hope?

SKM: What I can tell Mugura and the young Kenyans is never to lose hope. We will do the best we can as their parents to sort out the mess in a democratic manner and give back their country to them. But before we hand it over to them, it must be a functioning democracy. And so, we will make sure that this country is up on its feet again. And we want the young people know, we hear them, we feel them, and we will fight along with them to deliver a country that we can all be proud of.

NK: Stephen Kalonzo Musyoka, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SKM: Thank you for calling.

CH: Stephen Kalonzo Musyoka is the leader of the Wiper Democratic Movement, a Kenyan opposition party. We reached him in Nairobi.

[newsy theme]

Greyhound Bus Museum

Guest: Robert Louis Brandon Edwards

[Promised Land by Chuck Berry/rock]

CH: A little bit of Chuck Berry -- with a song that tells a story that was familiar to a lot of people in mid-century America. It's called Promised Land. And its narrator describes leaving the South in search of a new life, on board a Greyhound bus. Now, a new project seeks to remind people of the history of the time known as The Great Migration, when those buses -- and others -- were central to the African-American experience. It's a very personal project for Robert Louis Brandon Edwards, an artist and historian who purchased a vintage 1947 Greyhound bus last year, and is working to convert it from an RV into a museum on wheels. We reached Mr. Edwards in Cleveland.

NK: Robert, I know you were just working on the bus earlier today. When you're inside and doing that work, what kind of feelings does it stir up inside of you?

ROBERT LOUIS BRANDON EDWARDS: The first one is a humbleness. I know that a lot of history has taken place on the bus. And then, there's an excitement because I'm trying to preserve that history. And there's some mixed emotions. I know some people experienced some challenges in discrimination and segregation on that bus. And so, there's a humbleness that comes with that.

NK: And what did they tell you about what the trip itself?

RLBE: Yeah, my mom and my aunt, [chuckle] today is actually my aunt's birthday, and she --

NK: Oh, happy birthday!

RLBE: Thank you! She often talks about how long the bus ride was. And how she remembers my grandmother's cooking. My grandmother did prepare a meal for them to take along because they didn't know where they could stop or get off and eat. And so, having those types of conversations with my mom and my aunt made me think about the times when I would take road trips with my grandmother, and she would prepare meals for me going back to Virginia. So, kind of experienced a similar thing as my mom and my aunt, but in a reversed role, I guess.

NK: Yeah. When people think of the role of buses in the history of Black America, black Americans, you know, they'll think of Rosa Parks, no doubt, the Freedom Riders who came south on Greyhounds to fight segregation as well. But there are many, many other layers and other stories. What more do you want people to know about? Who else do you want them to know about?

RLBE: Yeah, you're absolutely right. When we Google "African-American Black experience bus", Rosa Parks and the Freedom Riders pop up as top results. But I want people to think of the Journey of Reconciliation, which happened in 1947. It was led by Bayard Rustin, and it was actually the movement that prompted -- or inspired -- the Freedom Riders of 1961. I want people to think about people like Eileen Morgan, who was arrested on a Greyhound bus in Virginia. But I also really want people think about the everyday African-American travel, like my mom, like my aunt, like grandmother, who migrated to these different cities just in search of freedom and better opportunities.

NK: And how will you illustrate that for them? When you're finished, and people are able to come inside, step on that bus like so many other people did -- so many Black Americans did -- throughout history? What will they be experiencing?

RLBE: You step onto the bus, you're wearing a pair of mixed reality VR goggles, and you're prompted once you reach a certain point of the aisle, whether you would sit in the front of the bus or the back of the bus. And depending on your decision, different scenarios will play out. And hopefully, you know, the viewer or the visitor will step off of the bus not only with a different perspective of what it was like to have travelled, but to sit with that decision of sitting in the front or the back of the bus.

NK: What does your family, your aunt, think about what you've decided to do here?

RLBE: So, it took me about a year to find the bus that I was looking for. I was looking for one that came from a city that was a part of The Great Migration. And so, once I found that bus, made the purchase, I had it shipped to our family's home in Fredriksburg, Virginia.

NK: [chuckling] Did they know what was coming?

RLBE: No, they had no idea. [both laugh]

NK: Surprise!

RLBE: Then, I immediately got a phone call from my aunt saying, what the hell is this? [NK chuckles] But she, and along with my mother, are super excited, super supportive, so everyone's been super supportive of the project so far.

NK: That's great to hear, Robert, and great to speak with you today. We'll speak again when you're all done, perhaps. Thank you for this.

RLBE: Absolutely, thank you.

CH: Robert Louis Brandon Edwards is an artist and historian. We reached him in Cleveland, Ohio.

[lounge jazz]

Stevie Wonder Rumours

CH: Stevie Wonder lost his sight early in life. And all that he's accomplished since -- as a pioneering singer-songwriter, musician, and producer -- he has done without being able to see. You know that, obviously, and so do I. So, as weird as it is for me to have mentioned that seemingly out of nowhere, it's even weirder that it was at all necessary. For years, rumours have persisted that Mr. Wonder is not actually blind -- repeated by everyone from Shaquille O'Neal to Lionel Richie and fed by mistaken assumptions about the capacity of blind people to navigate the world. Well, at a recent performance in the U.K., Mr. Wonder decided to address those rumours.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVIE WONDER: I must say to all of you, something that I was thinking of, when did I want to let the world know this, but I want you to say it right now. You know there have been rumours about me seeing and all that. [laughter] But seriously, you know the truth. The truth is, shortly after my birth, I became blind. Now, that was a blessing because it's allowed me to see the world in the vision of truth, of sight. See people in the spirit of them, not how they look, not what colour they are, but what colour is their spirit.

CH: Stevie Wonder at a concert in Cardiff, Wales, addressing long-standing rumours about his sight.

[folk]

Part 2: Suwayda Violence, Pepper Virus Detection

Suwayda Violence

Guest: Tamara Abu Alwan

CH: Today, Israel launched a series of airstrikes on Damascus. Syrian officials say one person was killed, and over a dozen were injured. It's the first time since May that Israel targeted the capital. It claims the attacks are intended to defend Syria's Druze population -- a religious and ethnic minority that branched off from Islam. At the same time, the predominantly Druze city of Suwayda in southern Syria is seeing deadly fighting. According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, at least 200 people have been killed there since Sunday. Tamara Abu Alwan's parents live in Suwayda. We reached her earlier today.

NK: Tamara, when was the last time you were able to speak with your parents?

TAMARA ABU ALWAN: That was yesterday morning.

NK: And what did they say?

TAA: They ran away from their home after the building right next to them was bombed, and by the missiles that they were throwing on civilians' places. So, the house got, part of it got destroyed, so they have to run immediately. And they had to go to a place in the countryside where it's far, where it is hard to reach, for the factions to reach. Thank God they were able to run away, but the thing is this countryside, the village they're in is very far, and they don't have electricity or even basic necessities. Like, it's very far somewhere. It doesn't have medicine, it doesn't have pharmacies, it doesn't have anything. So, unfortunately, they had to run away immediately, and there wasn't time to get food or do anything.

NK: So, you don't know how they're doing today.

TAA: No, no.

NK: And how old are they?

TAA: They're sixty-something, both of them; sixty-four.

NK: And do they need, are there specific medications they need?

TAA: Yes, of course, they have heart problems and they have also the high pressure.

NK: Blood pressure, the high --

TAA: Yeah, the high blood pressure.

NK: We're also hearing reports of another Israeli airstrike on Damascus in a western suburb of the city. Do you have any friends or family in Damascus that have managed to get in touch with you?

TAA: Yes, I know someone who was like the bombing was close to them, but nothing happened to them directly. But it was close to them.

NK: When this all began on Sunday, was this something that your family was prepared for or worried about in Suwayda?

TAA: Not at all. It was super fast and shocking for everyone. So, they weren't prepared. I called them a day before. I told them, please, like, make sure you have your things ready, so in case anything happened. But they were somehow the whole time telling me, don't worry. There's nothing. We're okay. Nothing. No one enters Suwayda. No one can enter. They were very, like, I don't know, they were very calm.

NK: But you, why were you worried?

TAA: I was worried because I'm the only person who documents the violations since the beginning of the massacres that started in the coast. So, the whole time people reach out to me to document and send to people and talk about them. So, I received a week before that they are violating the people on the road to Suwayda, and they are humiliating people, and they're saying --

NK: Who is they?

TAA: The people who started, the Bedouin tribes that started, that were taking care of the checkpoints.

NK: Israel has said that it's doing this to protect Druze people. What do you think? Why do you this is happening now, these airstrikes from Israel?

TAA: I believe it's happening because, of course, it's international decisions to do something to change the Middle East. It's not like we take decisions about our homelands. It's never the case for third world countries. It's bigger than us. It's big than what we want, or what is right and what is wrong. It's always happening between the big countries. So, I think they're doing this using this excuse to do whatever. Like, I'm not sure.

NK: What would help now?

TAA: I don't know, I really don't like what would help is for the aides to enter and for journalists to go cover what the [bleep] is happening, and see what's happening on the ground. And to see people, how women are getting raped, how children are being slaughtered, this is what I care about. For us, from where we stand, we never attack anyone, we don't have enemies, okay? We are peaceful people, we do not want to be in war with any party. But what's happening is that we're being pushed and pressured on to accept either colonization by Israel, or keep up the terrorizing acts that are happening from the Syrian army. So, we're in a very tough situation. We stand with truth, we stand with who can provide us with safety, and shelter and safety. You know, I don't have to die, live anywhere in the world to die because I'm different. Like, of course, this is the standpoint of all Druze. So, for us, this is a very tough situation. I'm not going to worry about the bombing of Damascus because those people are not just doing this to Druze. They're doing this for Christians, they're doing it to Alawites, they are doing this also to Muslim people who are trying to stand against their terrible acts. So, it's not about what we want anymore, it's about ending the violence.

NK: What is Suwayda like under normal circumstances?

TAA: It's very peaceful. In the past seven months, Suwayda was the least city in Syria that went through any kind of, you hardly hear about any violations, or killings, or, it was really safe. You can walk in the street, you can, people don't die randomly, you know? If this happens, it's very individual and few cases. But like, I mean, it was safe. It was safe. It needed some support and further adjustments and developments, and that's what we were hoping for. Like, for the negotiations to go further and to find mid-ground. But the thing is we know that this day will come and they will do this to us because we've experienced massacres from them before.

NK: Tamara, please take care. Thank you for this, and I hope you hear from your parents soon.

TAA: Thank you. Thank you so much.

CH: Tamara Abu Alwan's parents live in Suwayda. We reached her earlier today.

[‘60s britpop]

Bill C5 Challenge

CH: Today, June Black was reduced to tears while talking about her sacred responsibility to the land. Ms. Black is the chief of Apitipi Anicinapek Nation -- one of nine Ontario First Nations that has asked for an injunction to block the federal and Ontario government from implementing Bill 5 and Bill C-5. Both would fast track development projects -- like mines and pipelines -- by sidestepping existing laws.

SOUNDCLIP

JUNE BLACK: [crying] What's about to happen is gonna be very harmful. Bill 5 and Bill C5 are pieces of legislation that attempt to bulldoze over First Nation rights and lands with no respect for our decision-making and jurisdiction. Crown governments are required to act honourably, with respect to all decisions and dealings with First Nations. Speeding through projects and exempting projects from authorizations and approvals is far from honourable. Approving projects without the consent of First Nation peoples who have been on this land forever is even less honourable. Being honourable means advancing reconciliation. These bills from Ontario and Canada show that the Crown has no interest in reconciliation. Again, we have a sacred responsibility to this land. We ask that we be allowed to honour that sacred responsibility given to us by the Creator. Many of us pray, and we pray for you as well, so that you can live on this land. Because I'm telling you, when the water's gone, and when everything's poisoned, what are we going to have? We need to work together. We need support each other. We live in this country together. And the First Nations people have been here, once again, since time immemorial. We must work together. And like my fellow chief said, we're not against economic development. Yes, we need finances to survive in this world. Yes, we do. But we also need the natural resources to survive. That is also very important. So with that, I wanna thank you for listening to me. Chi migwech in my language, and God bless you.

CH: Chief June Black of Apitipi Anicinapek Nation, speaking in Toronto earlier today.

[eerie instrumental]

Pepper Virus Detection

Guest: John Lednicky

CH: Usually, scientists on the hunt for new viruses have to do a lot of legwork -- walking all over the wilderness to track down animal specimens, and then going to the lab to test them for novel new infections. But John Lednicky at the University of Florida can just sit back and wait for the specimens to come to him, through his exclusive delivery system: his cat Pepper. On two occasions now, Pepper has brought him small dead animals that have led to the discovery of new viruses. Pepper's latest catch has revealed a new strain of orthoreovirus. We reached John Lednicky in Gainesville, Florida.

NK: John, we've taken a look at your latest paper. We are not seeing any references to Pepper -- your cat -- getting credit as one of the authors. Why not?

JOHN LEDNICKY: [chuckling] I wish I could do that. You know, it's not allowed by the journals, but that's a very frequent question. People want to know if I'm going to confer a PhD in Pepper soon.

NK: We were thinking that, too. Pepper is getting a lot of credit, in all fairness, [JL laughs] in interviews and in the press. So, hopefully, Pepper is pleased with that kind of attention. What are these gifts, tell us about them, that pepper delivers to you?

JL: I live in a part of town that has a green space behind it, meaning it's wooded. And Pepper likes to go exploring, and he brings me primarily rodents. They can be rats, they can be mice, and similar animals. But in the past, he's also brought me things like frogs and big bugs. And, on occasion, a snake or two.

NK: Oh!

JL: Rabbits and pretty much anything he can safely catch.

NK: [chuckle] You know, pet owners -- and specifically cat owners -- will be accustomed to those kinds of special deliveries as well. But you've taken things a step further. Before we get to the research, though, is Pepper very pleased as he presents them? What is the presentation, the offering ceremony like?

JL: Oh he's very proud. You know, he'll meow at the door, with his tails straight up. And he centres animals perfectly in front of my front door. I don't know how he knows how to do that. He'll often times eat the front part -- the head of the four limbs -- and leave the rest for me. But sometimes, he leaves me the whole animal. He won't eat frogs.

NK: Oh, he's discerning? What made you decide, John, to start testing these offerings?

JL: I have a separate project where we're looking at the viruses that are killing farm deer in Florida. And one of the viruses we discovered, no one knew it was really an issue here in Florida, was deer pox virus. Pox viruses, many of them are carried by rodents, like monkeypox. Pepper brings me animals and they're dead. Instead of throwing the animals away, we see if we can find monkeypox in these rodents. So far, we haven't found them, but we certainly found two very interesting viruses. You know, the orthorheovirus is the latest one. But last year, we reported another one that was very interesting also. And it's important to see what these animals are carrying because they kind of can tell you what's circulating in the community.

NK: When people hear, though, about new viruses, obviously they might be getting worried. Should they be?

JL: I think they should be thankful we're finding them because a lot of people get sick and no one can tell what they have, right? And these rodents carry pathogens, but they also carry, oftentimes they have ticks on them, and fleas. And the ticks also carry things that could make you sick. A lot of people have no idea what's in their own backyard. And sometimes, there are things that can make you sick. When we find these things, we also develop tests that allow us to, you know, detect and identify them quickly.

NK: So, knowledge is power is what you're saying there. But just to be clear, is what Pepper is finding and what you what you find in the animals -- the offerings Pepper is giving you -- is Pepper at risk, or are people at risk? People will think of the next pandemic, potentially, as well.

JL: [laughing] Should an outbreak by one of these viruses happen in humans, we'll be better to diagnose that more quickly. Now, cats in general, you know, evolved to eat rodents. You know, Pepper's never been sick by, that I can tell from any of the things he catches. But you have to keep in mind that every wild animal, it doesn't matter what the animal is, will have all kinds of viruses in them. And it's true with humans, by the way, if I check your saliva, I'm going to find viruses in them like epsom bar virus and that sort of thing. But your immune system keeps it in check. Should people be worried? I think they should be thankful that we're finding, and able to identify these pathogens.

NK: How do you reward Pepper for his work?

JL: [chuckling] Oh, he's very spoiled. He eats very well. [NK chuckles] And he absolutely loves beef and lamb. He'll tolerate seafood.

NK: Oh will he? [laughing]

JL: Even in canned form, right? He loves salmon, by the way. Chicken, forget about it. Turkey, absolutely no way. But He eats really well. He gets lots of treats.

NK: Yeah. And he does his own foraging as well. Pepper's a black cat, right?

JL: Yes.

NK: Yeah. A lot of people, I know several people who have black cats and love them. You know they get a bad rap. So, maybe Pepper is doing good work on a number of fronts, making a name, a good name for black cats.

JL: [chuckling] Oh, I love black cats.

NK: John, a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you.

JL: All right. Very good. Have a good evening or afternoon. [chuckling].

NK: You, too.

CH: John Lednicky is a virologist at the University of Florida College of Public Health and Health Professions. We reached him in Gainesville.

[bass funk]

Les Gillis Tour

CH: As of this week, Winnipeg musician Les Gillis is on the road on a cross-Canada tour. He's not playing bar-rooms or concert halls; he's performing exclusively at homeless shelters. He told the CBC the plan is outward-looking -- but inward-looking as well.

SOUNDCLIP

LES GILLIS: I decided to do this a couple of years ago because I just felt that there's a huge need for the shortage of beds, and I've seen a lot of stuff as I've been going into the shelters. And so, I did some research. And some of the information that I got was outdated. And, you know, so I decided do a little investigating into it, right? And I thought, somebody has to say something. So, I decided to put myself forward, stand in there, and give it best I can for everybody, right, that's dealing with this, right? So, I'm hoping for the best.

MARJORIE DOWHOS: Yeah. Is there a personal connection for you, you know, to do this?

LG: No, it's just that I feel like that, you know, I've played music most of my life, and I just want to give something back. And I wanted to pick people's spirits up. And it makes me feel great. And I met some amazing people through my travels, and I want to continue to do that and just let them know that they're not alone. And that I'll stand with them no matter what.

MD: Yeah. I mean, how do you think your music career led you to this moment?

LG: Well, I started off on the streets of Toronto when I was about 19, played in the subways, and I travelled all over the place, singing. And I was lucky enough to meet some fantastic people in Winnipeg. And I made my home here. I met a lot of wonderful people that helped me along the way, right? And I just, I travelled for years going up and down the highways. So, I thought, maybe I can just go out and do something that can help somebody now, right? And it helps me, too, because it's very good for my soul.

MD: Mm-hmm.

LG: It makes me feel like I'm doing something that's small, but it means something to somebody else, right? And that's what's important to me.

MD: Is it just you?

LG: Yes, just me in the car and the guitar, [both laugh] and I'm looking for a place to sleep, and that will be in the car.

MD: So, I mean, you don't even have that planned out.

LG: This is so right by the seat of my pants, basically.

MD: Wow.

LG: Because I made the step to try to do something, and I'm going to gather as much information as I can. I'm looking for sponsorship, of course. I'm looking for help, of, course. I can only do so much on my own. I'd love to have a bunch of people that would help me now. All I can do is just go in and talk and just play my guitar and sing for people. That would be wonderful. But I was the one that decided to do this. So, it's up to me to move forward with it, right?

MD: Yeah. What have people been saying to you about your tour?

LG: I've been getting a lot of positive responses, like lots of pats on the back, you know, all those wonderful things, right? But, you know, that's all nice and everything, but the goal is to just to try to bring awareness to this crisis that's going on in our country, because we're a very rich country, right? This isn't about me personally, I'm just trying to put my foot in front of it. That's it.

CH: Musician Les Gillis, speaking with CBC Winnipeg's Marjorie Dowhos.

The AIH Transcript For July 16, 2025

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