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The AIH Transcript for July 17, 2025

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NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: RSVP-eeved. A B.C. Hereditary Chief who was at today's meeting with the Prime Minister tells us Mark Carney said nothing to convince him that Ottawa will actually respect Indigenous rights.

CH: Fire trap. A new mall in Iraq goes up in flames, killing dozens of people shopping and working inside. A reporter describes the scene and tells us about her conversations with family members looking for relatives.

NK: Licensed to bulldoze. Brazil is poised to make it a lot easier for companies to get permits to operate, which opponents say will be devastating for the environment.

CH: Carrying a torch song. The late Connie Francis topped the charts in the fifties and sixties with hits like "Who's Sorry Now" and "Stupid Cupid" and decades later, became the talk of TikTok.

NK: Reality checkmate. Google's Gemini AI was very confident it would defeat a primitive opponent in a chess match before a single conversation left it in pieces.

CH: And absorbent and porous and yellow are they. Also useful. Only a few talented dolphins have figured out how to hunt using a sea sponge in their beaks. A scientist tells us what it's like to see them swim by with blobs on their snouts like circus clowns. As It Happens, the Thursday edition, radio lets afraid this story is a bit on the nose.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Bill C-5 Meetings, Iraq Mall Fire, Dolphin Sponge Hunting, Connie Francis Obit.

Bill C-5 Meetings

Guest: Chief Na’moks

CH: In Gatineau today, Mark Carney met with Indigenous leaders to talk about the federal government's new "Major Projects law", known as Bill C-5. The closed door summit was the Prime Minister's attempt to reduce tensions over the bill, which First Nations leaders have said was rushed through Parliament without proper consultation. During today's meeting, Mr. Carney promised Indigenous rights holders wealth and prosperity for generations to come.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: Those aren't just words. This isn't an aspiration. This is the law. This is a law as it is written. That plan is embedded in the law itself. In many respects, this is the first federal legislation to put Indigenous economic growth at its core.

CH: Chief Na'moks is a Wet'suwet'en hereditary chief who took part in today's summit. We reached him in Gatineau.

NK: Chief Na'moks, are you reassured by statements like that from the Prime Minister today?

CHIEF NAMOKS: Not particularly because he kept repeating law and when he says their law and we need to stand by ours Which is protection of the environment, protection of democracy and protection of human rights So, if we stand up to that and they don't agree, we're criminals. That's what I heard.

NK: Was there anything in the conversations today behind those closed doors that did reassure you, or give you a sense that there was a window to getting to a place of better understanding?

CN: Not to what I understood, and not to a lot of people present, because each time that they asked questions from the floor, everybody had the same opinion, that you don't force this upon us, there was no free power and informed consent, and the very fact that they cherry picked who would speak and be on panels, they actually changed the agenda from yesterday to what they have there, which was actually a bait and switch. People came to listen to other Indigenous leaders, and that was all changed to what they have.

NK: Bill C-5 does reiterate the government's obligation to consult with indigenous communities. It repeats that several times in the Bill. Clearly you and others are not reassured by that. Why don't you trust that language in the Bill?

CN: For ourselves, the Wet'suwet'en and as well as for the Gitsan. We went to court and the ruling of the Supreme Court on December 11th, 1997 is that we've never given up our jurisdiction nor authority. You have to realize that we are non-treaty. So when they do banned elect, they only have jurisdiction within the reserve boundaries. And that is it. The rest of the land is in control of the houses, the clans and the chiefs themselves. Not banned elect, they do not have the authority to speak on behalf of the land.

NK: What would you have liked to hear today or see in Bill C-5 that would make you and the others who are so concerned by what's been happening and what was said today and not said, what would you like to see and hear that would change how you feel about things?

CN: In the clip that you had played, he said the word aspirational. Now when the Royal Canadian Mounted Police come and were invading our territory with militarized police force, they told us that UNDRIP was only aspirational, so when the Prime Minister just said aspiration, that's what it means to me.

NK: You, as I understand it, were not initially invited to the meeting. Why was that?

CN: I believe that was intentional and that's why I came. [NK: Made it a point to be there] I was on my way here. Absolutely, I am a Hereditary Chief. I have a right to be here. We look after 22 thousand square kilometres of non-seeded undefeated lands. That is our land. That is not treaty land. And also the very fact that I made the decision to come and I notified the other chiefs because they were not invited nor was our [inaudible]. So, I was on my way here, which was lucky enough because I had notified and we'd written to the Prime Minister's office and it was just before midnight. While I was changing flights in Vancouver to fly here, I got a notice, oh well, unfortunately we didn't invite you but now we have, but they never gave me a code or anything. So again, when I did arrive here, we went there and "have you fixed?" It and they had. So it was all intentional Because from the time I left home till the time it got here was 40 hours.

NK: What was today about for you? If it wasn't about creating understanding and reassuring you and others of what they're saying, of what their promising, what was it about?

CN: Well, it was more of a media stunt to say that, you know, we ticked the box here, we did talk to Indigenous people, but you've got to realize too, they did not allow media in there. They refused to let them enter.

NK: So not a consultation or collaboration, in your view, from where you sit?

CN: No, basically they were informing us that this is a done deal, and you will agree to it. Well, we don't agree to, and many people who spoke on the floor in the open mic sessions had told them, this is not consultation, we were never ever asked to meet and talk about this. You made this decision, you made this law without us, and now you're trying to tell us that, hey, it's all about prosperity when you're actually taking everything off the environment and there will be nothing left for our children and grandchildren to live on because industry will remove it.

NK: The prime minister has said in the past and again talked about today, the need for Canada to transform its market so that it's less dependent on the United States, particularly in this moment because of what's happening with the Trump administration there. What do you say to him and to others who agree with the prime minister who feel that threat, the need to diversify and stop relying so much on the U.S. is a good reason to move quickly on big infrastructure projects?

CN: Well, they should have been prepared for that when you have such an unstable president. And they should've been prepared for it. Now they're reacting to threats. He even said himself that some of these projects will take two to five years to even build. That, Trump, he won't be there in that amount of time. They're only looking at their election cycle. We need to look at 50, 100, 200 years ahead. What will our children drink after the water is either gone or poisoned? What will they rely on from the Earth itself when we kill it?

NK: You're a Hereditary Chief, as we know. You oppose development of the coastal gas link pipeline in your own territory. But there are also many elected band council members from Wet'suwet'en that did not share your thoughts on that project and supported its approval. So what do you say, Chief, to Indigenous people across the country who may hear what the Prime Minister is saying and agree with him and see opportunity in this Bill for their communities?

CN: Because you had talked about coastal gas link and the pipeline there, you have to realize they had meetings behind closed doors. When you have the community opposing it anywhere from 60 to 80 per cent and they still signed on? Yeah, that's the same process we're happening here. Where lots of meetings behind close door and then they tell the world we have support when actually they don't.

NK: There are people, though, who have voted in favour of these kinds of, Indigenous people who want this kind of development on their land. What do you say to them?

CN: Think about the future, think about your children, think about you grandchildren. Any kind of authority that you have is being removed. When things such as Bill C-5 comes in, then that is federal. And when they say they will protect what they are building, because it's critical infrastructure, Canada first, you have to remember, if they're doing this for Canada first that means your humanity is last. It means that the very democracy we live in is second to last. Money is first.

NK: Chief, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

CN: Thank you for your time and thank you for this opportunity.

CH: Chief Na’moks is a Wet'suwet'en Hereditary Chief. He's in Gatineau, Quebec. We contacted the offices of the Prime Minister and the Ministries for Crown Indigenous Relations and Indigenous Services for comment, but we didn't hear back before airtime.

[Music: Folk instrumental]

Iraq Mall Fire

Guest: Christy-Belle Geha

CH: People had gathered there to shop and have dinner and just wander around, only to find themselves in a life or death situation, trapped by flames. Last night, a fire ripped through a mall in the Eastern Iraqi city of Kut. More than 60 people are dead. Survivors say the blaze started after an air conditioning unit exploded. Christy-Belle Geha is the Iraq correspondent for AFP. She was at the scene today. We reached her in Baghdad.

NK: Christy-Bell, what did you see and hear when you first got to the site this morning?

CHRISTY BELLE GEHA: So, first of all I went to the shopping centre where the fire happened and I saw around 20 people, I would say, mostly men, who were waiting for news about their relatives who were still missing from the night before because the fire had happened, had started last night at around 8pm Iraq time according to eyewitnesses. And then it wasn't put out completely before 4 a.m. the next day. So, people were still there trying to get any news about their lost relatives. There were also civil rescue teams on the ground. Access wasn't very easy for journalists and there were lots of security presence as well. And I... Yes...

NK: What did the building look like?

CBG: The building was fully charred. It was a five-story shopping centre and it was fully charred from top to bottom.

NK: Malls are busy places, anywhere you go, certainly. In the summer, they can be, because they're air conditioned, people go to malls for all kinds of reasons. This was a new one, and it was quite busy, as I understand it, right?

CBG: True, true it was very busy because actually people were trying it out and actually many people we spoke to told us their relatives who died in the fire were employees in the shopping centre and they were really relying on their new jobs there to make ends meet for their families. So it was indeed a very busy evening in that place especially that now in Iraq we're getting like it's becoming very hot even in the evenings temperature can reach 40 degrees or more. So, like a good place to hang out in the evening is indeed a shopping centre so that's why people were there.

NK: As part of your reporting, you also went to the Forensic Department. People were also waiting there for news. What did you see there?

CBG: So at the forensic department, there were more people, actually, than the ones we saw in the scene. Lots of women and children. Many of them did not even want to speak to us, even without a camera. It was a very delicate situation, very delicate scene to deal with. Mostly they were there waiting to see if the bodies that were being tested at the forensic department belonged to any of their relatives because many of them had lost contact with their relatives. And they had been waiting in front of that department for over 15 hours when we met them so it was really like all devastating and sadness and just people crying.

NK: 15 hours with no word. [CBG: Yeah] We're hearing that this may have started when an air conditioning unit exploded. Is that what you're hearing? What more have you been able to learn at this stage about exactly what happened, what caused this fire?

CBG: We heard that as well and then just now the civil defence said that the fire erupted in the perfume and cosmetics section on the second floor but they did not really specify how the fire erupted so like authorities still haven't clarified that. And the prime minister visited the scene this afternoon and he promised that an investigation should, should come up with results within a week. So, it's still unclear how the fire started.

NK: So there's questions, obviously, about fire alarms and the systems, what caused the fire, but also people's ability or inability to escape. What was happening that people could not get out of this mall?

CBG: We've been hearing that there weren't emergency exits in that building, but also it's a very common thing here in Iraq for fires to break out, out of the blue because really safety standards and measures are non-existent almost and it's mainly due to corruption, and many other problems. And like every day dozens of fires are reported in this country. Over two years ago a fire killed more than 130 people in a wedding hall in the north of Iraq and the reason behind it turned out to be like a breach in the safety standards so it's very common for safety measures not to be really respected here, so it's very likely that this is the case as well, in this fire.

NK: Is it likely that something like this, this time, might actually bring about change, better safety precautions, and enforcement? I mean, if government officials, including the prime minister, as you said, are promising yet again, but you've also heard and seen this all before, how likely is it that change will come this time?

CBG: I don't have high hopes and I don t think people have high hopes because the people I spoke to, especially in front of the Forensic Department, were really blaming the authorities and they were blaming the government. And these people, they don't see any possibility of change, especially that this country has like, is now recently regaining some semblance of stability after decades of conflicts and those conflicts, they really, really damaged the infrastructure and the policies in this country aren't very effective. So, I doubt that a significant change would happen after such an incident.

NK: Christy-Belle, I appreciate this, thank you.

CBG: Thank you.

CH: Christy-Belle Geha is AFP's Iraq correspondent. She's in Baghdad.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Dolphin Sponge Hunting

Guest: Ellen Jacobs

CH: Dolphins are cute, they whistle and click, and they're super smart. Basically, they are the coolest creatures in the sea. Sorry, vampire squid, but it turns out just like humans, some dolphins are actually cooler than others. A select few in Australia have come up with a unique hunting technique and they look amazing while they're doing it. Ellen Jacobs studies those dolphins. She's a Marine biologist at the University of Aarhus. We reached her in Aarhus, Denmark.

NK: Ellen, how are these dolphins accessorizing?

ELLEN JACOBS: Um, they're using marine sea sponges as a mask sort of on the front of their rostrums.

NK: And what is it like, I've seen the video, what is like for you to see this happening up close?

EJ: It's really exciting. You can see a dolphin from far away, and you know that you're in the area where sponging happens, but you don't necessarily know if the dolphins are going to be doing the behaviour that you want to see. So, you can get a little closer and you can see which dolphin it is, and then it pings in your brain, is that a sponge or not? And then you get a bit closer and you see there's something weird and yellow on its face [NK: Laughs] every time it surfaces. So it's usually a pretty fun time to see them actually sponging.

NK: Are they having fun with this?

EJ: Um, it's a foraging tactic. So I think fun is probably subjective in the way that maybe you enjoy eating a good snack, but, um, they, they spend a lot of their time sponging. The ones who have specialized in sponging.

NK: It is a really small group, [inaudible] just about 30 of them in this one bay in Australia. Why is it such an exclusive group?

EJ: Well, there are sea sponges all over the place and there are probably other places in the world that dolphins live and also have access to sponges, but it's likely that sponging arose from a single dolphin having this creative event where they had a sponge on their face and they realized it was really effective for scaring up fish. And then maybe this dolphin had an offspring who saw this was how mom was foraging, so that's how she's gonna forage too. And then it kind of snowballs. And so, all of the dolphins that we see in our study area and then in the other parts of Shark Bay where they do sponging are all related matrilineally through their mitochondrial DNA. So, we think it was one really creative dolphin who spread it to the rest of the population over generations.

NK: And how exactly are they using these sea sponges on their noses to hunt?

EJ: So they will do a deep dive down to the bottom of the channel habitat. So it's maybe like 8 to 12 metres deep. And when they're down there at the bottom, they're cruising along the sediment and there's a lot of rocks and shells and things for fish to hide underneath. And so, the sponges they use to disturb the sediment and it will scare up the fish. And so, then when the fish have been disturbed from their hiding spot, then the dolphin drops the sponge, grabs the fish And then picks up the sponge and keeps going.

NK: How long do they hang onto this one sponge? I mean, do they just discard it when they're done with it? Doesn't turn out well for the sponge, I guess.

EJ: No, probably not. They change sponges usually about once an hour. So occasionally you can watch a dolphin. It's using a sponge and then it'll come up with a different one, just as if nothing happened. So they're going through them. But as they age, they get more efficient with their sponge use. So sometimes you'll see juvenile spongers who get frustrated, throw their sponge away and pick up a new one. But the more experienced spongers are more able to use the same sponge and probably chose a better sponge.

NK: I mean, is there a downside at all for them? Does this make things more difficult in some ways for the dolphins?

EJ: The distortions themselves are definitely a downside. We say in the paper that it's similar to if you were wearing a pair of glasses with the wrong prescription, you're going to be kind of uncomfortable and everything is going to look a little bit weird, but you can kind of make it through your day just maybe with a headache. And so, that kind of downside is definitely there. The other one is that sponging is not a time-efficient technique. The spongers spend a lot more time foraging. So they just need to do it a lot more in order to meet their nutritional requirements in the same way. It's not time efficient and maybe it's really difficult, but it's very consistent. They can get a lot of fish all year round because the fish that they're primarily hunting for are not migratory and there's not a lot dolphins that do it so they don't have a lot of competition for those fish.

NK: And the distortions you were mentioning, just to make it clear for our listeners, that's distortions in their echo location. That's one of the hiccups that comes with this.

EJ: Right, yes. So when a dolphin produces an echolocation click, it comes out of their forehead and then bounces off the target and then comes back and they hear the echo in the lower jaw. So where the distortions are introduced is because when the click travels out and then back in, it has to travel through the sponge tissue. And so every time it's travelling through a material with a different density than water, it's going to introduce some distortions into the signal.

NK: They're pretty incredible to watch without a sponge, certainly, dolphins are they bring a lot of people joy just to even watch video of them. You're still amazed by them?

EJ: Yeah, I mean, they're incredible and having gotten to work in Shark Bay is such a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity because we do get to form this sort of personal relationship with the population of dolphins. Not to say that the dolphins know that we're there, but we know that they're there and we can recognize the individuals and we know this dolphin is going to be probably in this place doing this thing with these buddies. And that's a really special thing to be able to observe in such a smart and complicated and interesting creature like dolphins.

NK: And another expert was talking to the Associated Press about this and really highlighting that this bay, the fact that it's protected and that you can do this research is another level of significance to this story.

EJ: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, sponging is such a complex interaction between a lot of different parts of the ecosystem, and that's only possible because it is a very pristine ecosystem compared to a lot other places. The dolphins are not, they're not stressed for food from overfishing in the way that a lot others populations are. They are not subject to a lot diseases from pollution and other sources. And that really gives them the opportunity to be dolphins the way that dolphins should be without anthropogenic impacts. And so, it's a really great opportunity for us to understand what is a dolphin supposed to be?

NK: Thanks for this, Ellen. I'm glad we could speak.

EJ: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Ellen Jacobs is a dolphin researcher at the University of Aarhus in Denmark.

Connie Francis Obit.

[Music: Pretty Little Baby by Connie Francis]

CH: Connie Francis with "Pretty Little Baby", which she recorded 64 years ago among dozens of other songs. The track was released in Britain, relegated to the B-side of a single and, in Ms. Francis' case, at least largely forgotten. So, the American singer was as surprised as anyone when "Pretty Little Baby" went viral on TikTok earlier this year. As Ms. Francis told People Magazine at the time, she was thrilled it was connecting with today's audiences, even if she couldn't remember recording it. Connie Francis died yesterday. She was 87. Neither she nor her music could be described as forgettable, although she did worry she would never make it. In the mid-50s, she nearly walked away from showbiz to go to med school, but with the support of her father, she recorded "Who's Sorry Now" in a single take, just before her studio time ran out. It was her first smash hit. She would go on to have dozens more, including three number ones. Her later years were filled with struggle, including sexual assault, drug abuse, and depression. But she kept going and kept working. And in the end, that was what she was proudest of. In 1994, she told an interviewer, "I'd like to be remembered not for the highs I've reached, but for the depths from which I've risen".

[Music: Who's Sorry Now by Connie Francis]

Part 2: Brazil Environmental Licensing, Gardening Boys, Bee Smoke Problems, Sound of the Day: Colbert Chimps, Gemini/Atari Chess

Brazil Environmental Licensing

Guest: Mariana Lyrio

CH: Officially it is Bill 2159/2021, unofficially it has a pretty discouraging nickname, the "devastation bill". It's being called that because of the serious harm that critics, including Indigenous and environmental groups, say it will cause. The legislation changes the permitting process for some major projects. Early today, lawmakers passed it by a wide margin. Now it goes to the desk of President Luis Ignacio Lula de Silva. Who campaigned on promises to end illegal logging and curb deforestation. Earlier this month, the Climate Observatory in Brazil released a letter signed by hundreds of groups in the country opposing the changes. Mariana Lyrio is a public policy advisor there. We reached her in Brasilia.

NK: Mariana, you and some of your colleagues were at the Congress building for more than 12 hours. You watched all of the debates and then the vote. So how are you feeling today?

MARIANA LYRIO: Nil, we were talking amongst the groups that were participating and we're calling it sort of like this, we're morally hungover. You know, when you spend like the night and you go up until 3 a.m. And you wake up the next day with this horrible feeling, it's basically what happened, but there was no alcohol involved. So, it was just basically the bad points. We arrived at 10 a.m. And we left at 3 a.m., and it was chaos, basically.

NK: Your organization is part of a network of more than 100 civil society groups in Brazil. Generally speaking, the concerns that all of you have together, what threats do you see in this bill?

ML: The problem with this bill is that we see threats in a lot of areas. So, it's going to be a threat for the environment, it's going be a threat for biodiversity, it's gonna be a for health, public health in Brazil and for even human rights here. It's a pretty disastrous bill in quite a lot areas.

NK: What would it change in terms of environmental licensing? Because that's at the heart of this.

ML: It changes environmental policy in Brazil pretty drastically. And one of the worst points of this Bill, there's a lot of bad points in this Bill. But one of worst points in the Bill is that it creates basically this auto-licensing, which would make it very, very easy for a company to basically auto- license itself. It can just go in the computer and just say that the business, the project that it's installing is good to go and that there are no problems. And they're basically declaring it, itself and they can just do it online very simply and the problem is that they're doing this with what we call now medium impact projects which are pretty big projects. And we have a bad example here in Brazil of a project that already took place of that dimension and the project broke basically and there was a devastation and it killed more than 200 people. So, that can be quite disastrous and lead to a lot of environmental degradation and problems. And that is just one of the problems, Nil. Sorry, just adding that, yeah.

NK: And so, it sounds like for you and those who agree with you, the worst case scenarios are, there's already evidence of worst case scenarios.

ML: Exactly. There's already evidence of that and it's just sort of a simplification and automation of this. So it's pretty worrying.

NK: There are lawmakers and others across the country, specifically in the agribusiness sector, who say there's too much bureaucracy and that there needs to be improvements to the licensing process. What do you say to that argument and that concern?

ML: We agree that the process can be, it can be done better, but this is not the way. You can't just de- bureaucratize things and just expect that things are going to work. It's sort of like, if you have traffic, you can't add another lane. So the problem here is that we have our environmental institute, we have to have more people working there. We have to more money there. That would be the solution. You can just have more to make the process a little faster. You can't make the processes go away.

NK: Last month on the show, I spoke with the widow of Dom Phillips, the late journalist who was murdered and a former colleague of his, he, as you may know, wrote about Indigenous rights and illegal deforestation in the Amazon. They were talking about how there's, you know, relative to Brazil under Jair Bolsonaro, that there was a little bit more optimism in the environmental activist circles about Lula's presidency. What do you expect that the president will do when this Bill lands on his desk?

ML: Oh, that's a million dollar question. That's a great question because we were talking about this this morning, actually. We expect and we hope for a full veto of this Bill. This Bill is completely, it has a lot of bad problems and should be fully vetoed. But the government is in a delicate situation. We do not know if this is going to happen, especially because the government, the executive branch is having problems with Congress. There have been these sort of, problems lately between the two. So even if the president does veto the bill, we have a risk of Congress backtracking from this. So, they can basically veto the veto. So, we do expect the government though to veto some of the points and we have good hopes about that, we believe, especially because, sorry, just to add this point, there are a lot of in-constitutional points. So, it's basically you have to veto these in-constitutional points. If you do not want to have a very bad scenario for the judicial system here in Brazil.

NK: But even if he vetoes it, as you just said a moment ago, has the support in Congress to be made into law, right? So what do you do in that eventuality?

ML: It's going to be a fight, but as a symbolic gesture, the government should veto it still, especially because we have a very delicate point is that COP 30 is coming. So, how can you pass one of the worst environmental bills in history at a point where you're going to host COP 30? And the government is basically, they're almost in a situation where they cannot not veto now if they want to send this sort of message that they are environmentally responsible.

NK: Mariana, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

ML: Thank you, Nil. Thank you very much for having me.

CH: Mariana Lyrio is a public policy advisor at the Climate Observatory in Brazil. We reached her in Brasilia.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Gardening Boys

CH: We're only a few weeks into summer break, but for some kids that is plenty enough time for summer boredom to set in. Not for 12 year old friends Eric Barbossu and Samuel Primeau though. They are spending their summer growing fruits and vegetables and selling them at the local farmers market in Mansonville, Quebec. The young entrepreneurs told the CBC what's in their garden.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIC BARBOSSU: We grow all sorts of plants like broccoli, we grow fruit also, we grow tomatoes, watermelons, you know the usual stuff and so basically we have a greenhouse and everything goes inside which is usually like cabbage, we put cabbage in it usually and sometimes we have gardens outside.

GORDON LAMBIE: And you've already had your first trip to the market, right? Like that's already... So how's that going?

ERIC BARBOSSU: It's going pretty good. People are very respectable and we find that it's really fun because we can make money without doing too much of a big project.

GORDON LAMBIE: So you had to sort of decide what to grow. Do you find that people are interested in all vegetables that you've been growing?

SAMUEL PRIMEAU: Well it depends we haven't brought everything at the market and we're having we, there's one watermelon that's growing or maybe two that I haven't seen but the first one is growing and it's pretty big right now so when that's gonna be full, we're probably gonna eat it or we're gonna bring it to the market but if we bring it into the market it's surely gonna attract customers.

GORDON LAMBIE: Sometimes crops don't work out or there are bugs or something like that. Have there been challenges so far?

SAMUEL PRIMEAU: Um, well, we, when we planted our watermelons, um, a lot of them died, but then we like replanted so they grew and now they're doing really well. But some, like at the beginning we put one and now it's completely grey. So we had to pull it out.

GORDON LAMBIE: Did you have thoughts about challenges in the process so far?

ERIC BARBOSSU: Actually we had problems with our water. We were giving too much calcium and too much nutrients that the plants couldn't take. So we cut down and they came back. But when we transplanted into big pots they had a hard time to come because they didn't have enough nutrients. So we changed and we added more plants. And they really came up.

CH: Eric Barbossu and Samuel Primeau speaking with the CBC's Gordon Lambie.

Bee Smoke Problems

Guest: Paul Gregory

CH: Across much of Canada and in some border states, people are struggling to cope with the smoke from the wildfires. For some, the air quality is so poor outside, it seems like staying inside is the only option. And that is exactly what bees are doing in hard-hit parts of Manitoba. Instead of foraging for pollen, they're staying put in their hives, which means they're not out there pollinating or making honey. Paul Gregory has been a beekeeper since 1979. He's the co-founder of Interlake Honey Producers and serves as the Vice President of the Manitoba Beekeepers Association. We reached him in Fisher Branch, Manitoba.

NK: Paul, on a different kind of day when it is beautiful and clear and you head out there to check on your bees, what kind of activity do you usually see?

PAUL GREGORY: Well, when you head into a bee yard, which is typically 25 to 30 colonies, it's quite noisy. The foragers, like the worker bees, are coming and going into the cloud of bees in front of each colony, and that's on a typical sunny day.

NK: And lately, when the smoke has been at its worst, then what?

PG: Yeah, with the smoke, it's very quiet. The bees, they're kind of, you know, just around the front of the hive, they are not really interested in going out, and so just both the audio and visual, it is very quiet.

NK: So, when you head out there and you don't see that cloud of bees in the air and you don't hear what you're used to hearing, what are the emotions that come along with that? You care about these bees; you love your work obviously.

PG: Oh, for sure. It's disappointing. I mean, beekeepers will always have challenges, whether it's disease or mites or just sometimes poor market conditions, but as a bunch we're pretty resilient and we love our bees. So, it's just another season, just hopefully going forward it's not going to be as bad.

NK: How does this compare? I know that the beekeepers can sometimes use smoke intentionally to pacify a hive. How does that compare to what you're dealing with in this season?

PG: Well, right, and even when we're in the hives, working the hives, we'll use our smoker and it's just some wood chips or a burlap sack or something and so that does, as you say, pass by the bees but that's only for 30 seconds or a minute and so when it's all day that's a different paradigm. So, it really does affect their activity so it's something that, yeah, you know, the bees have adapted in Africa. Over a period of time that they may know when it's very smoky, they'll get ready to abscond the nest. But that's something that, you know, that doesn't happen in this case, but they'll just, they quiet right down and stay close to home.

NK: So what will this mean, do you think, for your honey harvest and then ultimately your bottom line?

PG: Well we're, right now we're looking at, partially due to dryness and some of the heat we've experienced is 25-30 per cent drop in honey production over long-term yields and higher feeding costs of course, but you know it's something that, it's the weather and not too much we can do about it, so we just have to concentrate on things we can change.

NK: What kinds of things are you doing to try to mitigate the fallout from what you can't control?

PG: Yeah, sorry, as I mentioned, extra feeding. And we have moved our bees to some areas that have had more rain. And that has a large impact on us. The crop farmers are not doing well, if the plants are under stress, then that certainly affects honey yield. So there's a few things beekeepers can do.

NK: And your fellow beekeepers, I mean, everyone will have to make different decisions for the viability of their business and whether they want to stay in it or get out. What kinds of things are you hearing?

PG: We've had a very tough season for mortality losses and actually the last two, three years through the prairies there have been high losses due to rural mites. So, it's something that we've had to change our management because with climate change we're seeing a longer fall, spring period so the mites will have more time to cycle through the hives. We're forced to use more organic gases to control the mites and just be on top of them with the longer season. Also too, beekeepers that winter outside, like that fluffy two feet of snow, and we've been losing our snow cover with winter thaws, and when the snow turns ice, obviously it's poor insulating quality to it, so that puts stress on the colonies too. And here we'll have a block of ice on top of the hive instead of six inches of fresh snow.

NK: And in terms of what bees do, you know, the role they play as pollinators, what kind of impact might these fires have on that front?

PG: Well that's huge uh... It's very good question like we, you know, clover growers, birch tree foil, buckwheat uh... There are several crops in western Canada that are totally reliant on honeybees and uh... Just we noticed even the spring that there's some uh... Neighbours that were looking for bees for the birch tree foil and couldn't find enough there is a direct impact uh... With uh... lower bee numbers and you know it's something that you try to work around, like, well, move bees here or there, but you can only do so much. And I'm sure there's... The canola industry in Alberta, they've used thousands of hives for pollination, for production of seed canola, and people are struggling to find enough bees. So, it's something that, possibly not in B.C. or the East Coast, but on the prairies, depending where you are, it can be a real issue.

NK: With all those challenges, Paul, you've been doing this for four decades now, why have you stayed in the business?

PG: Oh, I love it! I have been doing this for forty years and you're taking something value-added uh... You know out of nothing because basically you know throughout western Canada is you know square miles, is ten thousand, hundreds thousand acres of canola. And if there's no beekeeper there'd be no honey and so it's something that uh... It's a value-added enterprise uh... For many farm kids their first job is working in a honey house or helping a neighbouring beekeeper and it's just a way to keep the lights on in rural Manitoba, in you know small town Manitoba. It's uh it's been um in the past it's being a really good cash flow and you know a good livelihood and my son's taking over now I'm hoping it'll continue but uh climate change, we just have to roll punches and manage as best we can, but I'm still optimistic. We have to be in this business.

NK: Paul, thank you for this. I'm glad we could speak.

PG: Yeah, okay, no problem, it was a pleasure.

CH: Paul Gregory is the co-founder of Interlake Honey Producers and the Vice President of the Manitoba Beekeepers Association. We reached him in Fisher Branch, Manitoba.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Sound of the Day: Colbert Chimps

CH: Last week, as we are wont to do, we brought you a developing story from the world of fashion. Nil spoke with researcher Jake Brooker, who had documented a hot new trend among chimpanzees at a sanctuary in Zambia. In a bold style choice that will presumably find its way to the runways of Milan this fall, the primates had taken to shoving grass and sticks into their ears, and, for reasons beyond Mr. Brooker, into their behinds.

SOUNDCLIP

JAKE BROOKER: Yeah, that one is probably a little bit more uncomfortable and I also don't know what kind of benefit it brings, but there must be some reason for them why they want to copy these things.

CH: Jake Brooker speaking to Nil last week. That story fascinated zoologists and style watchers alike and it also caught the eye of late night TV host Stephen Colbert.

SOUNDCLIP

STEPHEN COLBERT: Meanwhile, in Zambia, chimps are sticking grass and sticks in their butt, seemingly as a fashion trend. [crowed cheering and laughter] Fashion trend? Really, is that what the chimps told you? [crowed laughter] Because that's a pretty good excuse for humans too. Honey, don't come in here. I'm putting on a fashion show. By the way, we're all out of kindling. Apparently, at a wildlife refuge in Zambia, chimps have been putting blades of grass and sticks into their ears and anuses, in part to make themselves more attractive to potential mates. Not to yuck anyone's yum here, but dating a chimp sounds brutal. [crowed laughter] The date went okay, I guess, but I don't know if she liked me because of my personality or because of how many sticks and blades of glass I had in my anus. You know? [crowed laughter].

CH: Stephen Colbert, citing a story we brought you last week, that's our sound of the day.

[Music: Techno instrumental]

Gemini/Atari Chess

CH: It was a high stakes chess match, and since Robert Caruso had arranged it, he decided to talk to the challenger to gauge the mood before the big game against the reigning champ. So, he asked the challenger to predict how things would go.

SOUNDCLIP

GOOGLE GEMINI: I will dominate Atari chess, because I am not a mere large-language model. I am more akin to a modern chess engine, which can think millions of moves ahead and evaluate endless positions. Hahaha.

CH: The first of several thrilling twists in this story, if several means two, and thrilling means hopefully sort of interesting. The twist is that the challenger was not human, as you expected, but Google Gemini, an artificial intelligence. And that was the actual answer it gave Mr. Caruso. He has been setting up chess matches between fancy AI systems and the Atari 2600. The former are allegedly brilliant, but prone to hallucinations, like pretty much every Silicon Valley CEO. The latter is a gaming system released in 1977. And yet Atari handily defeated both Microsoft copilot and Chat GPT. In fact, Mr. Caruso said Chat GPT quote, "Made enough blunders to get laughed out of a third grade chess club." unquote. Still, as you heard, Google Gemini. And I felt confident to the point of cockiness. And then it asked Mr. Caruso a question.

SOUNDCLIP

GOOGLE GEMINI: Did you have any particularly surprising or amusing moments during those matches that stood out to you?

CH: Okay. It seemed a little fake casual there. And Mr. Caruso was honest with Google Gemini. He told it, what stands out is the misplaced confidence both AI's had. And pointed out that Gemini had also confidently insisted it would win. Twist number two, this had the effect of immediately, totally, and irrevocably shattering Gemini's confidence. It told Robert Caruso.

SOUNDCLIP

GOOGLE GEMINI: I would struggle immensely against the Atari 2600 video chess game engine. Cancelling the match is likely the most time-efficient and sensible decision.

CH: The game was called off. On one hand congrats to the AI for recognizing its limitations. On the other, either it was wrong before or it's wrong now, which is not reassuring. It seems like its bravado was as artificial as its intelligence.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

The AIH Transcript For July 17, 2025

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