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The AIH transcript for June 10, 2025

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STEPHANIE SKENDERIS: Hello, I'm Stephanie Skenderis, sitting in for Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

SS: Mending defences. The auditor general exposes the ballooning cost of the F-35 program -- but Defence Minister David McGuinty says Canada needs to revive its military with new spending regardless.

CH: Anti-inflammatory language. A human rights lawyer says Canadian sanctions against two Israeli government ministers for inciting violence with their rhetoric are long overdue -- but very welcome.

SS: Doing justice to justice. As the high profile sexual assault trial of five former members of Canada's world junior hockey team wraps up, an advocate calls on Ontario to drop its ban on restorative justice -- to give complainants more options than court.

CH: Changing of the guard. California lawmakers decry Donald Trump's deployment of U.S. troops to the streets of Los Angeles. -- and one spars with the defence secretary over whether it's even legal.

SS: You could have heard a pin drop. A museum manager in Taber, Alberta tells us about the moment she found a grenade while going through boxes -- and the moment she started seriously panicking.

CH: And...never a dull moment. The owner of a giant pencil in Minneapolis tells us about this year's grand sharpening -- which happens with great pomp and ceremony on his front lawn.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday Edition. Radio that warns you: one of the following stories includes graphite content.

[theme]

Part 1: Defence Minister, Restorative Justice Letter, Giant Pencil Sharpening

Defence Minister

Guest: David McGuinty

CH: Spending large amounts of money can be complicated. Especially when you're a government. As we told you on the program last night, Ottawa will shell out an additional $9.3 billion dollars this year to finally meet its current NATO obligation -- which is two per cent of GDP. Prime Minister Mark Carney is promising to give raises to soldiers, rearm the military, and bolster domestic defence production. That's left the opposition parties -- and everyone else -- wondering how the government plans to pay for it all. And it comes as the auditor general reports that the cost of Canada's plan to buy 88 American-built F-35 fighter jets has ballooned from $19 billion to nearly $28 billion. David McGuinty is the Minister of National Defence. We reached him in Ottawa.

SS: Minister McGinty, how can Canadians be confident about your new major defence spending plan when they see this big cost overrun with the F-35s?

DAVID MCGUINTY: Well, the F-35 acquisition began, as you know, and listeners might know, in 2011, and we've been managing our way forward since then. Obviously, like all of the participating member countries in NATO that are purchasing the F35, there were some snags, some challenges around, obviously, the pandemic, which set us back three years, which had a bearing on logistics, on the price of materials and inputs, and, of course, inflation. And so, having just come back from the NATO meeting last week in Brussels, a number of countries, including Canada, have seen some cost overruns, but we are confident we're moving forward now. We've acquired 16 of these. We're waiting to take possession early in the new year, and our top pilots are beginning to start their training.

SS: And are you committed to sticking with these F-35 purchases? I mean, the cost has skyrocketed, the jets are not arriving on time. How committed are you?

DM: Well, we're committed to participating in a fifth generation fighter jet fleet. And this is the top fleet at this stage. We've asked our department to conduct a review. They will be producing that for Canada and releasing it sometime over the summer, they've said. We've let them take the time they needed to do so. And they just reported two days ago that they're going to be delivering that result soon.

SS: So, let's get into this NATO meeting. Because NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte has signalled that the two per cent of GDP spending asked is gonna rise, likely to five per cent. At a speech in London yesterday, he said member countries need to find a way to pay this new five per cent target, or if not, they'd, quote, better learn to speak Russian, unquote. So, will the government commit to increasing defence spending to five per cent if that is what NATO decides?

DM: Well, this is a process that's under way. The prime minister will be leading the leaders delegation to the Hague at the end of this month to, in fact, pursue these conversations. We're gonna be discussing these additional targets. And right now, we fully anticipate that we're going to need to spend more relative to our GDP over time. The question is what time? What timelines? What phase in, et cetera? And we'll learn a lot more when we get to the Hague in a couple of weeks.

SS: You mentioned a timeline there. What kind of timing do you think we could be looking at?

DM: Well, there was early discussion that I think the secretary general had been talking about 3.5 per cent by 2032. That's a short seven years from now. That, again, is going to depend on the membership. This is a consensus-based decision-making body. But what we are seeing from NATO is a better assessment of the needs and, for that matter, an allocation of the responsibilities from each member state in terms of the responsibilities they would take on to deal with this particular skirmish now, this terrible war, in fact, that we're dealing with in Ukraine through this illegal invasion by Russia.

SS: But the other big question will be, how do we pay for this rise in spending? The government will have to find a way to pay for this, at the very least, that'll likely involve some sacrifices, and you yourself alluded to that two weeks ago during a speech in Ottawa. We have a clip of that, we can just play that for you now.

SOUNDCLIP

DM: I read yesterday that the Netherlands let 22 per cent of their public servants go, except for the Defence Department, to meet their obligations. Other countries are doing away with national holidays. Others are, yet again, increasing corporate taxes, or running larger deficits in anticipation of the troubles that might be forthcoming.

SS: Increasing taxes, doing away with national holidays, what will Canadians have to sacrifice?

DM: Well, the very good news that Canada's debt to GDP ratio is the strongest in the G7. Many European countries don't have that same performance. But that being said, our plan is to proceed, as we said during the election, and we will see it reflected in the budget, which is going to be tabled in the fall. We're not planning on major cutbacks of these kinds, or major measures of these kinds. We believe that Canada's in a very good position. And what we really want to do economically is grow the economic pie for the country at the same time. We have to remember that one of the net effects of the investments launched or announced yesterday, Stephanie, $9.3 billion this year, is to really help accelerate industrial benefits in the defence sector. More companies, more production, more manufacturing. So, we are confident that as we get our economy moving, this is one of the core industrial sectors that will be driving. We're going to be in a very good situation to be able to meet these expenditures, meet the moment. Because the situation in Russia is, to be frank, very serious.

SS: But what if the economic pie doesn't grow the way that you hope? Could we see a tax increase to cover this?

DM: That's a very big if. I think what we're going to do now is manage our way forward. Then we'll see where we are in terms of the budget by the fall. But let's not forget also what we are really about here, Stephanie, is we really want to rebuild, rearm, and reinvest in the Canadian Armed Forces. We're going be moving forward on making sure that some of the basics are taken care of. Housing, health care, child care, kits, women's uniforms. If we're going to recruit and retain another 13,000 members, then we have to treat them respectfully. And that's one of the reasons we fought so hard to provide a 20 per cent pay increase.

SS: Do you think Canadians are ready to accept that kind of increase in spending? We're just getting to two per cent defence spending at this point. Do you think Canadians have the appetite to spend five per cent?

DM: I think that the Canadian people overwhelmingly understand that the situation in Ukraine is very serious. I think they understand that the Russian government has converted its economy to a wartime economy, that it has taken control of its manufacturing base, and converted it into the manufacturer of weapons and armaments. So, I think Canadians understand there's a lot at stake right now. Now at the same time, this is also a moment for Canada to strengthen its security and its sovereignty in the face of a new kind of relationship that we're managing our way through, Stephanie, in the United States with the White House. Canada can be strong, and this is one of the sectors where we can make, I think, a considerable difference while helping on the international scene.

SS: Okay, Minister, thanks so much for speaking with us.

DM: Thank you so much, Stephanie.

CH: David McGuinty is the minister of national defence. He's in Ottawa.

[indie rock]

Restorative Justice Letter

Guest: Marlee Liss

CH: This week, in a courtroom in London, Ontario, defence lawyers for five former members of Canada's world junior hockey team are making their closing statements. The highly publicized criminal sexual assault trial began in late April -- and saw the complainant spend nine days on the stand, including seven gruelling days under cross-examination. And that cross-examination is one aspect of the trial that has yet again raised questions about how sexual assault cases are handled in the justice system. And in an open letter, a group of survivors is calling for the Ontario government to drop a ban on restorative justice -- and offer it as option for complainants in sexual assault cases. Marlee Liss is the founder of Survivors 4 Justice Reform. We reached her in Toronto.

SS: Marlee, as a sexual assault survivor yourself, who's been questioned in a preliminary hearing, what words would you use to describe that experience?

MARLEE LISS: Definitely re-traumatizing, dehumanizing, victim-blaming, and just really emotionally-taxing.

SS: And eventually, your case was referred to the restorative justice process in 2019, one of the first in Canada, and one of the only cases in Ontario where a criminal sexual assault offence was actually resolved through restorative justice. So, what did that process look like?

ML: Restorative justice is not a one-size-fits-all. For me, what that looked like was my assailant going to therapy for about seven months, where he was supported by a professional in unpacking everything that led him to justify that degree of violence, learning about consent, challenging power dynamics, all of these things. And then, we eventually met in a restorative justice circle, which is a practice that's rooted in Indigenous communities. So, people are invited into the circle who were also impacted by the harm by secondary or vicarious trauma. So, my mom and sister were in the circle as people there to get closure. My assailant's closest friend was there to deepen accountability. And there were two mediators who facilitated this process, really prioritizing, like I said, healing, having my needs met, having space for me to voice the impact in an uncensored way, and my assailant, of course, taking accountability and really demonstrating how he's not just saying sorry, but doing sorry in terms of action and how he is moving through the world.

SS: And what was that like just to speak directly to this person who harmed you?

ML: Of course, it was still scary, but what I really valued about it was the space to show up authentically. Because in court, victims are coached and expected to show in a way that fits with the court's version of a, quote, credible victim. And that means, like, being not too emotional but not too stoic and all of these things. Whereas in this circle, I could just be real with all of the emotion, all the questions that I had, all the impact, I could just, like, let that out.

SS: And so, now you and more than 50 signatories have signed an open letter calling for Ontario to rescind its ban on restorative justice in sexual assault cases. But just tell us why you believe it's a better option, restorative justice is a better option than a criminal trial, at least in some cases.

ML: If we look at statistics from the sexual assault attrition pyramid, which is from Statistics Canada, we can see that less than one per cent of sexual assault cases end with legal sanctions. So, we're seeing rates of acquittal, we're seeing charges dropped, stayed, withdrawn. We're seeing a very small percentage of survivors even reporting because of how re-traumatizing the criminal legal system is. For that reason, we need to open more doors to justice for the sake of victims' healing, for the sake of rehabilitating perpetrators when that's possible. I certainly recognize it's not possible in all cases. And also, for the sake of public safety.

SS: So, the Ontario government right now says sexual assault is too serious to be handled outside the courts. What's your argument to those who might say that restorative justice in sexual assault cases is too soft on crime?

ML: It's almost a joke to me [chuckling] to say that it's too serious to happen outside the courts. Because if we're taking sexual violence so seriously in the criminal legal system, that's not being translated into the facts, into the lived experiences, into statistics. And then, I'll say this emphasis on being tough on crime versus soft on crime, it's a very ineffective and non-pragmatic debate to me because what does that even mean? And what would happen if we asked much better questions like, is it healing for the people harmed? Is it preventing future violence? Is it keeping the community safe?

SS: Right as you're calling for these changes, there's, of course, this really high-profile trial happening in Canada with these five former world junior hockey players. There's been pretty graphic details heard from the complainant; she's known as EM. She's been testifying, being cross-examined for days. How challenging has it been for you to watch this trial and do the advocacy work that you're doing?

ML: Yeah, I know so many survivors have reached out sharing just how re-traumatized they feel, and I feel that as well, to be honest. Like, in order to make this work sustainable for me, I always respect my own boundaries with how much information I take in. So, I've been watching and following along, but I don't personally want to hear the really graphic details and the defence lawyer's questions that echo my own experience on the stand. So, I would never speak on behalf of EM, who I don't personally know. But, you know, she deserves to have some version of justice that doesn't re-traumatize her.

SS: Has Ontario's attorney general, Doug Downey, responded to your letter?

ML: We have not received a response yet. So, we sent it yesterday morning, and hopefully, we will receive a response soon.

SS: And if he is listening now, what would you say to him?

ML: Just please listen to survivors. I think we've had this sort of tough-on-crime rhetoric for so long, and it's embedded in a patriarchal context, and it has gone unquestioned for so long, but we have to look at the facts of sexual violence not declining, of survivors being re-traumatized, of rapists being acquitted. We have to look at those facts, and just get really practical about the need for more doors to justice to be opened.

SS: Marlee, it feels like such a timely conversation, especially as we're watching this trial play out, and as we think about, as you say, other doors to achieving justice. Thank you so much.

ML: Thank you so much for having me and for amplifying this work.

CH: Marlee Liss is the founder of Survivors 4 Justice Reform. We reached her in Toronto.

[lounge jazz]

CALIF. National Guard

CH: Donald Trump says California should be thanking him for deploying Marines and National Guard members to Los Angeles. But lawmakers there are not feeling especially grateful. The troops were sent in response to anti-deportation protests which began on Friday. They're ostensibly limited to protecting federal buildings, but their presence is triggering a constitutional showdown. It's the first time a U.S. president has federalized a state's National Guard without gubernatorial sign-off since Lyndon B. Johnson sought to protect civil rights advocates in the 1960s. And in a heated exchange today, California Democrat Pete Aguilar questioned Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth on the legality of Mr. Trump's move.

SOUNDCLIP

PETE AGUILAR: With the most recent deployment of the Marines, Mr. Secretary, what's the justification for using the military for civilian law enforcement purposes in L.A.? Why are you sending war fighters to cities to interact with civilians?

PETE HEGSETH: American citizens deserve to live in a community that's safe. And ICE agents need to be able to do their job. They're being attacked for doing their job, which is deporting illegal criminals. That should happen in any city -- Minneapolis or Los Angeles. And if they're attacked, that's lawless, and President Trump believes in law and order. So, he has every authority and he has done mobilizing National Guard or active duty troops under U.S. code to protect federal agents in their job, which is exactly what we're doing and we're proud to do it.

PA: Mr. Secretary 10 USC of the U.S. Code 12406 as a legal basis that the president used cites three examples in circumstances for the Guard. Invasion by a foreign nation, rebellion, or dangerous rebellion against the authority of the government of the United States, or the President is unable with regular forces to execute the laws of the Unites States. Which authority is triggered here to justify the use?

PH: I don't know. You just read it yourself, and people can listen themselves, but it sounds like all three to me.

CH: An exchange between California Democrat Pete Aguilar and U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, during a House Appropriations Defense subcommittee hearing today.

[percussive]

Giant Pencil Sharpening

Guest: John Higgins

CH: That is the dramatic and intense buildup to a really big joke. A big tall joke. And yes, you did hear the words "one moment to the sharpening." Bellowing that threatening sentence is John Higgins of Minneapolis, Minnesota. On Saturday, he stood on his lawn before a crowd of thousands, hyping them up for what is now a highly anticipated annual tradition: the sharpening of a giant pencil. It's known as the Lake of the Isles pencil. It's six metres tall, and it's sharpened once a year, in front of an audience, by a red, manual pencil sharpener, built to scale, that must be operated by two people. We reached John Higgins on a trip to Glasgow, Scotland.

SS: John, there were quite a few people at your place this weekend. Do your neighbours see the point of this event, or are they beginning to dread it a little?

JOHN HIGGINS: Ha! Yeah, the neighbours have been great, very supportive. They have thanked us, they've encouraged us. All around, their support is part of what's driven us to keep doing it.

SS: And for those of us who weren't lucky enough to be there, what exactly happens at The Sharpening? Because I understand it's quite the ceremony with an actual literal sharpener.

JH: Yeah. So, the humour of this, beyond it being, I think, a really spectacular piece of art, that the humour is that we've all used a pencil, but pencils, for them to really work, they've got to be sharpened. And so, we came up with the idea to make this a living sculpture, kind of ephemeral. It is going away, but we sharpen it. And our sculptor, our friend now, he made a to-scale, proportional-sized sharpener. It's about four feet large, weighs 100 pounds, but we hoist that up and turn it around a few times and the pencil gets sharpened.

SS: This is a lot of work to sharpen this pencil! [laughing]

JH: Well, it's worth it, but it's fun. [SS chuckles] I mean, I think our genuine interest in doing this really translates well. Because while we thought we'd do this for 100 neighbours, just kind of the immediate local block or two, this year is multiples, multiple thousands.

SS: Wow!

JH: We're still trying to get a count. But, I think, people come and they really have fun. Grandparents are bringing grandkids, a 30-year-old daughter from Pennsylvania, you know, 1,200 miles away wanted to come. And she came with her mother, and that was totally unexpected.

SS: Wow. And this year had a Prince element to it as well, right, as in Purple Rain?

JH: Yes, it did. You know, Minneapolis is the hometown of our beloved and lost rock hero Prince. It was his birthday, so we call it number four birthday for the pencil. Number 67 it would have been. We had a medley of Prince songs. We opened with a Prince tribute. We had some comments, Prince actually went to grade school, elementary school, five blocks from our home.

SS: Oh wow!

JH: And when I mentioned that, you know, half the crowd knew that, and they just roared and cheered. I mean, they love Prince, of course, locally. But I think they're very proud that know that Prince is a hometown boy. He wrote songs about Lake of the Isles, the very lake we're on. We had a fun sequence where we brought out our costume pencils, and they did a band choreographed into a Prince song. We had purple smoke bombs, handed out purple pencils. [SS chuckles] So, it wasn't the entire program, but I think very fitting that we tie into Prince.

SS: And, I mean, if he went to grade school so close to where you were, he was probably using a number two pencil there too, so I guess -- [laughing]

JH: I bet he was, I bet he was, 50 years ago.

SS: But let's back this up a little because where did this pencil come from?

JH: So, our front yard had a massive oak tree. And a massive windstorm came suddenly on an early June Saturday morning in 2017. It was all of a 10-minute storm, but like a mini tornado. It crushed the tree, it smashed our neighbours' house, and it brought some of the siding off. It crushed a wall in front of our home. And anyhow, we cleaned it up over a couple weeks. The 25-foot trunk, kind of remaining trunk, it looked very, you know, almost sinister. Just marred wood at the top. Kind of at nighttime like a broken skeleton. But we're looking at this thing, and this is 35 inches wide diametre, I mean it's a massive piece of wood, it's very good, high-quality oak, we could do something with this.

SS: And what did people who went tell you about why they wanted to come watch The Sharpening?

JH: A big part of our message, or, you know, my wife and I really enjoy welcoming the crowd, and thanking them for coming. A lot of them, we estimate people from over 15 states, maybe as many as 20. There's a family from Switzerland here. I mean, so people travel. But a part of it is there's a lot going on in our world right now. You know, a lot of distraction, a lot about the people may not be happy about, but we are here for fun. There's no agenda. This is for fun. As kids, we've used pencils. We've made shopping lists with a pencil. We wrote a thank you note, or maybe a love letter with a pencil. We made a mistake. We erased it. This is a community's pencil. We talk about sharpening it and, you know, with the sharpen, there's a chance for, you know, a renewal, a new beginning, a promise for writing another note. You know, writing another thought or idea, you know, a poem or something. And so, we share this and we genuinely believe this, that it's symbolic of something more than just a piece of carved wood. People love that message.

SS: So, it's really become the community's pencil, but the pencil is, as you say, this is all ephemeral. You've taken off a few more centimetres this year, but there's still plenty of pencil left, but do you worry that the fun will end once the pencil gets down to a nub?

JH: We do ask that. And honestly, it is a mystery. We don't know. I mean, I doubt we're going to live in this house forever. I don't doubt it. I know we won't live in this house forever, life moves on, but the pencil, as we sharpen it, it is getting shorter. And how short, how many years, what do we do with it? We don't have answers to that, and we're fine with that. It's a begging question, but it's a mystery, and there's a lot in life that we just don't know right now. But for today, for this moment, we're going to take what we have and make the most of it.

SS: John, thank you so much for telling us all about this giant pencil.

JH: Well, happy to do it, Stephanie. Thanks for your time here.

CH: John Higgins owns the Lake of the Isles Pencil.

[lounge jazz]

Part 2: Israel Minister Sanctions, Taber Grenade

Israel Minister Sanctions

Guest: Sari Bashi

CH: Two prominent Israeli government ministers are no longer welcome in Canada. Canada -- along with New Zealand, Norway, Australia and the U.K. -- says Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich incited extremist violence against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, while advocating the expansion of Israeli settlements. Today, all five countries have imposed sanctions against them -- including travel bans and asset freezes. Canada's foreign minister, Anita Anand, talked to reporters about the sanctions in Ottawa today.

SOUNDCLIP

ANITA ANAND: As the prime minister said on May 19th, in the joint statement, if the ongoing expansion of settlements in the West Bank did not stop, concrete actions would be taken. These measures are directed against individuals who directly contribute to extremist settler violence. The measures are not directed against the state of Israel itself. Canada remains unwavering in its support to the state of Israel. Canada remains steadfast in its support for a two-state solution, so that both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and security. Canada will continue to call for the immediate release of all hostages, a ceasefire, Hamas laying down its weapons, and the free flow of urgently-needed humanitarian supplies in Gaza.

CH: The sanctions against the Israeli ministers focus on violence by settlers in the West Bank. But the countries' joint statement references the, quote, "catastrophe" in Gaza and the denial of essential aid. Sari Bashi is an Israeli human rights lawyer. We reached her in the West Bank.

SS: Sari, did you ever think you'd see a country like Canada actually impose sanctions on serving ministers in the Israeli government?

SARI BASHI: It's definitely a welcome step. I'm sorry that things had to hit rock bottom for Canada to finally take this step. I think it's a testament, certainly, to good progress on the Canadian side, but also just how violent and extreme the Israeli government has gotten.

SS: You've been pushing for sanctions for a long time. Why do you think we're seeing this action now?

SB: I think it's a couple of things. First of all, the U.S. administration has also become more extreme in its support for Israeli abuses in Gaza, including an initiative by President Trump to forcibly displace Palestinians from Gaza, which is a crime against humanity. And until recently, Canada was reluctant to allow daylight between the Canadian and U.S. policies. And, I think, as the U.S. policy becomes even more odious, it's becoming easier for Canada to appropriately differentiate itself. Also, these two government ministers are engaging in incitement to genocide, supporting extremist violence in the West Bank, and actively funding and supporting the expansion of unlawful Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

SS: One of these ministers, Bezalel Smotrich, has already hit back. He has said, quote, we are determined to continue building. He said, we overcame Pharaoh, we'll overcome Starmer's wall, referring there to the U.K. prime minister, Keir Starmer. Are you worried at all that these two ministers will use these sanctions, wear these sanctions, as a badge of honour?

SB: It doesn't worry me, because they've already done that. These ministers, as well as most members of the Israeli government, have characterized any legitimate criticism of the Israel government's abuses as anti-Semitism. So, let them complain. What's important is for the Canadian government to reduce its risk of complicity in these very, very grave abuses. The Canadian government has taken important steps via direct arms embargo on sending weapons to the Israeli government. It needs to do more, for example, ensuring that the weapons it sends to the United States don't end up committing grave abuses in Gaza, but today is a good day.

SS: Just on the sanctions specifically, will they have any practical effect? Because presumably these ministers continue serving, continue to advocate settlement expansion. So, what is the point of sanctions?

SB: They have an effect. First of all, they make it clear that these people can't land in countries like Canada or the U.K. and be expected to be received. That's important. There also are asset freezes and freezes on financial transactions that make life more difficult. But I think it's the statement that's quite important. Up until very recently, Western countries, including Canada, have been backing the Israeli government as it committed horrendous abuses. That didn't start, by the way, recently. This has been a long time coming in terms of an entrenched system of apartheid that the Israeli Government has maintained for decades in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. And so finally, the Canadian Government is starting to say, wait a minute, that's not okay. That's really important, and more needs to be done.

SS: With regards to the reasoning behind the sanctions, the statement that's been put out and the response from our government, as we've heard from our foreign minister, it's very careful to point out that this is about settlements, that it's not specifically about Gaza. What do you make of that? Are you disappointed that Gaza is not more front and centre in this?

SB: So, first of all, the government did mention that this is not isolated from the catastrophe taking place in Gaza. And certainly, there are enough grave abuses taking place in the West Bank to justify these sanctions. These two ministers have been involved in, first of all, inciting toward a complete shutdown of humanitarian aid into Gaza, the forcible displacement of Palestinians from Gaza, as well as actively expanding Jewish settlements and backing violent Jewish settler attacks on Palestinians. Since October 7, 2023, every day, there have been multiple attacks on Palestinian communities by Israeli settlers who enjoy complete impunity, funding from Smotrich, the finance minister, and backing from Mengevir, the police minister.

SS: What would you like to see next from countries like Canada?

SB: I think Canada needs to do more on the arms question, including making sure that the arms exports that it does to the United States don't make it to Israel. I think it should strongly and clearly support the independence of the International Criminal Court, which has issued arrest warrants for senior Israeli officials, and is being attacked by the United States and other countries. And I think, it needs to review its bilateral and trade agreements with the Israeli government to ensure that it is not complicit in very grave abuses.

SS: And what about where you are? How is news of these sanctions being received there?

SB: Look, things are really hard in the West Bank, not nearly as hard as Gaza, but there have been, there's been very stepped up military violence, settler attacks, the roads are closed down by Israeli checkpoints, the economy is tanking. You can't expect people to be celebrating. But this is important. This matters. And I hope it is another step in a series of steps by the Canadian government and other Western allies in making it clear that they do not want to be complicit in grave abuses and even in genocide.

SS: How about in Israel? How is this being received there?

SB: Most people in Israel see the government's actions as just, and criticism of the government, they see it as anti-Semitic, or illegitimate. Some people in israel are fighting for a different regime, a regime that is based on equality. And for those of us who feel that way, these sanctions are like a breath of fresh air.

SS: Okay, Sari, thanks so much.

SB: Thank you.

CH: Sari Bashi is an Israeli human rights lawyer. We reached her in the West Bank.

[bright, moody piano]

NIH Hearing

CH: Yesterday, more than 300 people who work at the U.S. National Institutes of Health slammed President Trump’s proposed $18 billion funding cut -- which would amount to nearly 40 per cent of the agency’s budget. In an open letter, they warned it would waste years of work and millions of dollars — not to mention that it would put lives at risk. At today’s Senate hearing, Illinois Senator Dick Durbin confronted NIH Director Jay Bhattacharya about the plan.

SOUNDCLIP

DICK DURBIN: How are you able to reconcile these budget decisions with the reality of research, and what it means to alleviate suffering, and more importantly, to give people hope? If research is under way, you at least have the hope that maybe there'll be a cure, maybe in the lifetime of someone I love. How can you walk away from that?

JAY BHATTACHARYA: Listen, my intention is not to walk away from that. I mean, I think that --

DD: But the budget speaks for itself; you cut 18 billion in research.

JB: Senator, the budget is a collaboration between Congress and the administration. So, you know, I look forward to talking about the advances that NIH research has made. I mean, I think the transition has been a very bumpy time. And I don't mean to, like, downplay that, but there have been opportunities for reform for how the biomedical research enterprise works. The way that the universities operated during the pandemic didn't always make it easy for scientists to do their work. I can tell you that personally from being a professor.

DD: Eliminating grants, eliminating research, how can that solve the problem?

JB: So, I think that I'm very hopeful that a resolution can be made with the universities where those decisions, those grants have been paused. I've worked very hard to make sure, for instance at Harvard, we didn't pause grants, for instance, to the medical centres because there were clinical trials going on. But I think, I'm hopeful that these universities, where these pauses have happened, will come to terms so that we can move forward with the agenda that I think you and I both share.

DD: Well, let me say this, I am personally disappointed. You know, you try as a senator to pick one or two areas and really make a difference. And, I think, this committee, and members of this committee on both sides, made a difference, dramatic difference, 60 per cent increase in NIH research over the last 10 years. You've wiped it out. Just wiped it out.

CH: U.S. Senator Dick Durbin speaking with Jay Battacharya, the Director of the U.S. National Institutes of Health.

[elevator music]

FOA: Pencil Sharpener

CH: Earlier in the show, we told you about the annual ritual that is the sharpening of a six-metre-tall pencil in Minnesota. If you're a pencil enthusiast, you already knew about that event. And if you're a longtime listener to this program, you're familiar with a famous pencil enthusiast who is a big fan of that big event. In 2012, we introduced you to David Rees, widely renowned as one of the world's top artisanal pencil sharpeners. Very possibly the top. He literally wrote the book on sharpening pencils, entitled How To Sharpen Pencils. And at very first giant pencil sharpening a few years ago, Mr. Rees came out of retirement to lend his expertise. He's guest-hosted the event a couple of times since. Back in 2016, when his business model was proving less-than-lucrative, he came on the show one last time to talk about hanging up the specialty knives and sanding blocks -- even despite the boom in adult colouring books at the time.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID REES: So, the adult colouring books have been really interesting, and I think they have been a boon for the pencil industry. You know, I don't know how long that will last. I can't tell, you know, if that's the type of thing where everyone has now received an adult colouring book for Christmas, and it's going to take them five years to actually complete all the incredibly detailed colouring that needs to be done. But for now, I'm just happy that people are buying coloured pencils and are buying pencil sharpeners to sharpen them, even though I will not sharpen coloured pencils for money, you know? This past Christmas, my sister-in-law gave my girlfriend an adult colouring book and 72-pencil set. And my girlfriend gave her mom an adult colouring book with a big, you know, coloured pencil set. It was just like a barter economy where [CO chuckles] the only things to barter were adult colouring books and coloured pencils.

CAROL OFF: But it's surprising to hear that the business has turned on you in this way. I mean, when we spoke the first time, you spoke so whimsically about the sharpening of a pencil, the perfect sharpening of that tool, the smell of the graphite, the cedar filling the room, these excited you once.

DR: Well, you know, capitalism is a brutal and unforgiving mistress. And, you know, she'll have her way with you, and you'll be the Belle of the ball for some time, and you will enjoy a lot of media attention. And you may even be able to publish a book about pencil sharpening, and tour the country, you know, talking about pencil sharpening. And then at some point, the sad fact of the matter is people move on. And I'm sure I'm not the only white guy wearing an apron doing something by hand who's seen his fortunes turn in the last couple of years. You know, it's not like we're making automobiles or something. Although, [chuckle] I just picked the worst possible example.

CO: [chuckling] You did, you did, yes. Or drilling for oil or something really with a future.

DR: [laughing] No, exactly. I'm not different than Exxon Mobile, you know? The economy changes, and people seek other forms of energy and things like that. And so, you know, I feel like my experiment with free market capitalism and conspicuous consumption is coming to a close. I'm sure I'll have other experiments in the future.

CH: From Our Archives, that was former As It Happens host Carol Off speaking with artisanal pencil sharpener David Rees in 2016.

[lounge jazz]

Taber Grenade

Guest: Taia DeBona

CH: Starting a new job always comes with some surprises. Maybe someone eats your lunch, because you didn't use the office-wide labelling system. Maybe your supervisor insists she has the authority to claim your lunch, and then eats it right in front of you. Maybe someone forces you to eat their lunch. Or maybe the surprise has nothing to do with lunch. Maybe the surprise is a grenade. That's what it was for Taia DeBona -- who made the discovery about a month into her new role as the manager of the Tank 77 Museum in Taber, Alberta. That's where we reached her.

SS: Taia, is the museum open and safe to visit today?

TAIA DEBONA: Yeah, it's all good now, we've gotten the all clear.

SS: Okay, and take us back to that moment you first found this grenade. What happened?

TD: At first, I just thought it was a prop. I find a lot of really interesting and crazy things here at work. And the box that I found it in had a bunch of military stuff in it, but it also had a lot of props and toys. So, my first kind of thought was, well, it's a prop. Like, I didn't even actually think about it. But when I had picked it up, it was so heavy in my hand. Like, it felt like I was holding a big piece of cast iron. And the pin kind of rattled around, and it was like all of a sudden, my heart started racing. And it was just like this is dangerous. I'm holding a real grenade. It was just so crazy the just quick switch to, I think this might be an issue, you know?

SS: Why were you looking in this box in the first place?

TD: So, part of my job, part of our offering at the museum, is we do group tours. And the Air Cadets wanted to do a big group tour. And so, you know, not only was it my first-ever, you know, big group, tour, but it was with a bunch of teenagers. [chuckling] And so, I was like, how do I occupy a bunch of teenagers? [SS chuckles] And I thought, because they're Air Cadets, they're probably interested in military history. And so, I pulled all of our military artefacts together. It was my first time going through it all, and I had the tour all ready. They got to have a VIP look at a bunch of our artefacts. And so, they really enjoyed it. But yeah, that's when I found the grenade.

SS: And when did you decide, okay, it's time to call the police?

TD: I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it, but it took me about an hour. I set it on the floor. Well, actually, my partner was here volunteering that day, and he knows quite a bit more about this kind of history. And so, he took it from my hand, because I was like, this is really heavy, and picked it up, and said, I think this is a real grenade. [SS laughs] And then, we didn't know what to do.

SS: So you were like, let's just put this down on the ground. [chuckling]

TD: Yeah. It felt weird to, like, put it on a shelf. And so, it's actually kind of ridiculous, because I told the police dead cat logic.

SS: What is dead cat logic?

TD: [laughing] I put my jacket on the floor, and then the grenade in the jacket, and then I covered it with the jacket [SS laughs] like it was a dead cat. It just felt weird to have it just laying around in the open, and so.

SS: I think I'm not going to look at this. I'll cover it.

TD: Yeah, the cops actually kind of razzed me about that, because they're like, what is this going to do? I don't know. My brain wasn't working.

SS: So, what happened when the police showed up?

TD: So eventually, my board member, she came to the building, she was going to come here anyway, and we asked her, we told her about the whole situation, and she says, call the police, obviously. I was just, I was so unsure of calling them because I was worried that they were going to make fun of me. It sounds ridiculous, but I thought that, like, they would see it and they would just think, oh, this is obviously a toy, or obviously a prop. But I did call them and I'm very thankful that, I mean, I think I probably would have anyway, but I'm glad that there was more people there with me and it wasn't just me alone with the grenade, because we were all able to make the right decision. And so, I called them and two officers showed up on the scene. And it was actually kind of funny because the same day that the Tabor Police Facebook page posted about what was going on, the prior post, if you look back, it's them talking about their brand-new constable, and he was the first one on the scene. [chuckle] So, I think when they sent out the cops, they said, let's go send out "New Guy" to the grenade at the museum. So, I think there was a bit of razzing going on, in general, that day. [laughing].

SS: What did they tell you? Was it actually live?

TD: Well, they showed up and they had their bomb jackets in their hands. And so, I think, you know, they were maybe thinking, well, just like me, like, there's no way it's real. But then, the second the officer saw it, he got this kind of wild look in his eyes, and he immediately put the jacket on and zipped it up. And so, that's when I got kind of freaked out, because it went from being, you know, I'm crazy to, oh my goodness, this might actually be a real grenade. Like, I might be right. It is a grenade. And they jumped into action. They immediately called the military out in Suffield. And yeah, it was like, it went from being two cops on the scene to all of a sudden there was, like, 20, and the whole building had to be barricaded off. It was, it was really crazy.

SS: So, was it live?

TD: It kind of depends on your interpretation, which is kind of funny. Um, the military told me that at one point, this was likely a training grenade, which means that it would have been painted blue. And that's why they kind of freaked out so much because it was green, um, which means that is a live grenade. And when they actually, uh, 'cause the military came and they took it in a bomb-safe box and then drove off. And, um, they kinda analyzed it, and although it had explosives inside of it, I don't know if it's gunpowder or what, like it had the ability to explode it had no fuse.

SS: Okay.

TD: So, probably would have gone off from me holding it or bumping it. But it is from the '40s, so it was definitely dangerous enough for them to confiscate it from us, that's for sure.

SS: Wow! Uh, Taia, this has been, I've learned a lot. [TD chuckles] Thank you so much.

TD: I appreciate it so much, have a good one.

CH: Taia DeBona is the manager of the Tank 77 Museum in Taber, Alberta.

[poppy instrumental]

Part 3: Rhino Horn Study

Pedestrian Driver

CH: Michael Taylor has a story to tell. It starts out pretty mundanely. He was driving in Toronto in the morning. Stopped to get coffee. And amid a fair amount of traffic, he started to parallel park. But Mr. Taylor wants you to hear what happened next on that ordinary day. Because it could happen to anyone. This is what he said today on Metro Morning.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL TAYLOR: Thankfully, I had my windows open, and I was relaxed and not too stressed about getting it done. And I put the car into reverse, looked at my cameras, looked over my shoulder, and then, unfortunately, heard a thud as I started the backup process. Put the car into park, thankfully it went into park, turned it off, got out, ran around at the back of the car, praying that there wasn't someone lying on the pavement. But unfortunately, there was. There was a man lying on the road behind my car. And I struggled, he and I both struggled, to get this man to his feet. All the while, he was apologizing for jaywalking, and he said, I had done nothing wrong, and I had everything right, and he had done everything wrong. I used my hands and I steadied him, finally got him to his feed and his back was to me. I slowly turned him around, and then I immediately looked at his neck. And as I said in the article, I honestly don't know if I said this out loud or said it to myself, but I said, oh my God, I've just hit a priest. But, you know, thankfully for both of us, and for all of the witnesses as well, he seemed to be perfectly fine. I said don't move, let's call 911, let's get the police here, let's get an ambulance, let's make sure you're okay. He said, no, I did everything wrong, you did everything right, I really apologize. I handed him his briefcase, he got into it. He put his brief case into his car, went into the bank, and I just stood there not even being able to imagine what had just happened. And in the blink of an eye, you know, my day and life had certainly changed, as had all the people who had just witnessed this. And I'm sure his day did, too. You know, jaywalking is just not something you should be doing. And thankfully, I wasn't distracted driving. I was completely focused. And I love, I always drive with my windows and sunroof open so I can hear what's going on around me. I think that played a role in all of this. But I really wanted to share it. And I thought if I could share this and help anybody, just don't be distracted driving, just slow down a little, try and be patient. Two humans walk to each other on the sidewalk and bump into each other and both just apologize. That's all you do. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You get into a car and you get this red mist as you drive this 4,000-pound weapon. And we have this road rage, it's, it's terrible. And it's, it's not getting any easier because driving in big cities like Toronto is extremely frustrating.

DAVID COMMON: What have you learned through this experience?

MT: I was very lucky, and the gentleman involved was very lucky, and all of us who witnessed this. I mean, if it, if I had backed up another three feet, I don't even want to think what would have happened. And we would have all been involved in it and witnessed it, and it would have been tragic. And you can imagine how your life would be ruined forever. And it's amazing that people don't care.

CH: That was Michael Taylor talking to CBC Toronto host David Common.

[ambient]

Rhino Horn Study

Guest: Tim Kuiper

CH: If a unicorn lost that pointy, silvery horn on its forehead, would it still be a unicorn? It's one of the great philosophical questions…it's one of the good philosophical questions. And the answer seems fairly straightforward: yes. It would simply be a unicorn without a horn. This is why we call horses "hornless unicorns". Mind you, some people will tell you unicorns are fictional. Whereas we all agree that rhinos -- the increasingly rare giants of the savannah, with horns -- are very much non-fictional. Now, scientists in South Africa have shown that pondering the dehorning of rhinos really matters. Insofar as it can save their lives: rhinos whose horns have been removed are far less interesting to poachers who want them. Tim Kuiper is a biodiversity specialist at Nelson Mandela University and an author on this new study. We reached him in George, South Africa.

SS: Tim, is a rhino without its horn still a rhino?

TIM KUIPER: That is a great question. My gut reaction is no. [chuckling] I think a rhinoceros, if you look at the etymology of that name, it refers to the horn. So, we think of dehorning as a necessary evil because it means removing the one thing that really makes a rhino a rhino.

SS: What do they look like up close?

TK: Okay, so rhinos in southern Africa have two horns -- both the black and white rhino species. There is a one-horned rhino species in India. And it's really fun to see how different the horn is from rhino to rhino. So, you've got rhinos with really long, thin horns. You've got rhinos with, you know, shorter and stubbier horns. But they're really majestic appendages, if I can put it that way.

SS: So poaching, how many rhinos are lost to poaching in South Africa right now?

TK: Yes, that's a good question. I mean, at its worst, about 10 years ago, 10, 15 years ago, there were over 1,000 rhinos killed per year in South Africa. And just to put that into perspective, in our study area, about 15 years ago, there were over 10,000 rhinos. And today, there's less than 2,000. So, the population has plummeted.

SS: We'll come back to your study and to the process of dehorning, but first of all, what other strategies are being used to reduce the amount of poaching?

TK: In terms of increasing risk, you're trying to increase the risk of the poacher being caught. So, from the poacher's perspective, there's an increased risk of being caught, you know, if there are cameras out in the field that can detect them, or if there are tracking dogs, sniffer dogs, that rangers are walking around with to track down the poachers when they enter the reserves. Or even helicopters are used to survey reserves, or to follow up on an incident approaching.

SS: And out of all of those options, what your study has found is what works the best is dehorning. How does that work? Why does that work? Why does that make such a difference?

TK: We looked only at things that can be done, like, at the reserve level. We didn't look at demand reduction. We did not look at addressing the poverty of the areas surrounding reserves. But in the suite of things that we did look at, dehorning, so removing the rhino's horn intentionally, the rangers and the reserve managers sawing off the horn with a chainsaw, across many different sites and across a seven-year period, every time that reserves implemented dehorning, we found quite drastic reductions in poaching in the months and years after dehorning was implemented.

SS: What kind of number do you mean? How drastic?

TK: So, the average we found was about 80 per cent. Yeah, we're talking quite big numbers. And we estimate that, you know, 100-200 rhinos conservatively will have been saved by this intervention.

SS: Clearly, you know, this has an impact. But can you talk to me about the process of dehorning? Because like you're saying, taking a chainsaw to the horn and cutting it off, I mean, it sounds aggressive. So, how does it work? Is it painful for the rhino? What effect does losing the horn have on it?

TK: Yeah, that's a really important consideration. And actually, that's one of the main reasons people were holding off dehorning for so long. Because in one sense, it's a fairly logical thing to do. We can assure your listeners that this is a completely painless procedure in the sense that the material that the horn is made of is the same material as our fingernails and as our hair, it's called keratin. And so, maybe an imperfect analogy, but when you clip your fingernails, you don't feel it. Or when you cut your hair, you don t feel it. And it's the same with the rhino. To dehorn it, and these are wild animals, they're normally tracked down by a helicopter. And once they're located, a ground team goes in. The rhino is immobilized using a dart gun. It allows the veterinarians and the team to work on the rhino and remove the horn safely.

SS: So, you mentioned that the horn is kind of made of the same material as fingernails. Fingernails grow back pretty fast. How fast does the horn grow back? But what kind of impact does losing it have on a rhino?

TK: Yes. So, the horn does grow back in the space of 18 months. So, it's remarkable how quickly it can grow back. Rhinos, one of the main uses of the horn is for males in territorial disputes. The rhinos keep their home ranges or territories, and adult male rhinos will fight to protect their territories. But what we found, the research to date, my research and the research of some others, is that no major red flags have been raised. Like, rhinos without their horns are surviving just as well as rhinos with their horns. And they're reproducing just as well. They're moving about in a similar way.

SS: So, I mean, do you think that this is a long-term solution?

TK: Well, thanks for asking that. You could probably tell I wanted to talk about that, because it's a really important thing for us to highlight that we see this as a really effective and powerful short-term solution. And we're hoping this message gets out to funders. Because whilst it was one of the most cost-efficient interventions, it's also an expensive one in real terms. We think of it best as buying time to address the real causes of poaching. So, in South Africa, there's a lot of poverty, and these kind of conditions are just the conditions where these criminal syndicates thrive. These organized criminals come into these areas and they influence, recruit, manipulate, threaten people living alongside these reserves, and get them to get involved with poaching. We need to address poverty, I guess, is what I'm getting to. But we're happy that dehorning provides some hope and buy some time to do that more important work.

SS: Yeah, buying some time in order to tackle a much bigger issue. Tim, thanks so much for talking to us about this.

TK: My pleasure.

CH: Tim Kuiper is a biodiversity specialist at Nelson Mandela University. He's in George, South Africa.

[eeire instrumental]

Nunavik TB Outbreak

CH: Municipalities in the Nunavik region of northern Quebec are sounding the alarm over a serious outbreak of tuberculosis. In a letter to provincial health minister Christian Dubé, the mayors of the region's 14 municipalities asked the government to declare the disease a public health emergency. According to the Nunavik Regional Board of Health and Social Services, Inuit communities in the region face tuberculosis rates more than 1,000 times higher than in the rest of Quebec. Maggie Emudluk is a member of the executive committee of the Kativik Regional Government. She told the CBC that existing disparities are only making things worse.

SOUNDCLIP

MAGGIE EMUDLUK: This is not new, we really feel that we're not treated equally in the Quebec health system. We have no roads connected to the two hospitals that are in the region, so there are clinics. You have to fly into these bigger communities that have X-ray machines and weather, if there's no flights. I mean, all these put together, it's a very worrisome. And it's also a big reminder of many years back in the 1950s and '60s where many Inuit would be sent to the south, to sanatorium, because of TB. And some never actually never came back to their families. So, if we hear on the news, let's say TB outbreak somewhere down south, let Montreal or, I don't know, Ontario, or Quebec, what we would hear, I think, is that there would be vast effort to try to stop the spread of TB. So, we really feel that we need that attention now because it is treatable. There is medicine, but we need the means to be able to direct the efforts on trying to end the tuberculosis.

JULIA CARON: What more would you like to see the Quebec government do and do quickly?

ME: I do like, as if this was down here. [chuckle] To make sure that there is availability in terms of resources, medical resources, funding. We shouldn't be discussing TB today in 2025. We live in Quebec. We are taxpayers, we are Canadians. We should be receiving the same type of health care like any other Quebecer.

CH: That was Maggie Emudluk talking to Julia Caron, host of Quebec AM, earlier today. The CBC requested comment from Quebec's Health Ministry. In a statement, it says that it takes the situation in Nunavik seriously, and that it's, quote, "working in conjunction with Santé Québec and the Nunavik Regional Board of Health and Social Services," unquote. The CBC also requested comment from the Nunavik Regional Board of Health and Social Services, but has not heard back.

[folk]

Flotilla Deportations

CH: Greta Thunberg and the eleven other activists on board a ship bound for Gaza say they were kidnapped by Israel. The Swedish environmental activists arrived in Paris today, after being deported. Yesterday, the boat she was on, which was operated by the group the Freedom Flotilla Coalition, was seized by Israel in international waters. Ms. Thunberg and the other activists say they were trying to reach Gaza with a symbolic amount of aid -- in an attempt to get by Israel's restrictions on aid into the territory. Israel’s Foreign Ministry says it was a publicity stunt and dismissed it repeatedly as a "selfie yacht". Last month, another vessel run by the Freedom Flotilla Coalition was attacked by drones while attempting a similar journey. Greta Thunberg spoke to reporters just after her flight landed in Paris, en route to Sweden.

SOUNDCLIP

GRETA THUNBERG: On international waters we were illegally attacked and kidnapped by Israel, and taken against our will to Israel, where we were detained and then some of us deported, some are still there. There are very big uncertainties because it was quite chaotic and uncertain. So, I don't really know what's going on; I haven't had a phone for many days.

REPORTER: What were the conditions for you over the last few hours?

GT: They were absolutely nothing compared to what people are going through in Palestine, especially Gaza right now.

REPORTER #2: Are you worried about the others, that they might be detained for any length of time?

GT: Yeah, I'm very worried about them. We heard many different messages pointing towards that they would not make it easy. And there were troubles with being able to see lawyers. So, I am very much calling for their immediate release, and calling for everyone who can to mobilize to their governments and other ways to demand their immediate release. And, of course, to demand not only humanitarian aid being let into Gaza, but also a ceasefire. But most importantly, an end to the occupation, an end to the systemic oppression and violence that Palestinians are facing on an everyday basis.

REPORTER #3: Will you try to break the blockade in some way again -- by boat or another method?

GT: There will be a march to Gaza happening in the coming week, I think, of people trying to come to the Rafah border, which is yet another time to break the siege. This is definitely not the end. This is going to continue, of course.

CH: That was Greta Thunberg speaking to reporters just after landing in Paris.

[chillhop]

Encore: Fainting Goats

CH: They're the best-of-the-best in their field. Any field, presumably. Which is why they are coming to a field in Toronto. A special team of 50 goats from King City, Ontario has been given a special mission: to graze on invasive species and plants, in order to restore a small meadow oasis in the middle of Toronto -- for the benefit of the butterflies, birds and other species that live there. If all goes well, the ”Prescribed Goat Grazing Project” -- or PGGP -- will take just two days. But if these goats are anything like Gene McNutt's goats the job will likely take a little longer. Especially if they're not used to the noise of honking car horns in heavy Toronto traffic. In 2003, Gene McNutt of Chapel Hill, Tennessee spoke to guest host Julie Van Dusen about his goats -- which fainted any time they were startled.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIE VAN DUSEN: So, Mr. McNutt, first of all, can you tell me just how the fainting goats earned their fame?

JVD: What's your goat's name, the one that your wife's first pet there?

GM: Her first, her very first goat, her name was Abby.

JVD: Now, Gene, how did you know that Abby's behaviour wasn't just a rare display? Like, what did you do to make sure that you did really have a fainting goat?

GM: When we studied the goats and the condition that our neighbour had told us about, we began to observe the goat and see that she, indeed, had the traits to be a myotonic goat. She wasn't the most myotonic goat in the world, but her condition wasn't severe, severe. But you could still tell from the double muscling, the pointedness and slightly forward of her ears.

JVD: Mm-hmm.

GM: And all the traits that it takes to be a good fainting goat she had, except she didn't faint a lot.

JVD: How do you get them to faint exactly?

GM: Well, just a good loud shout, sometimes, clap your hands. Sometimes, they'll get excited and fall out on their own. Sometimes, they will butt each other and one of them will fall out.

JVD: Now, what happens after you scare it and it faints, does it go back to what it was doing?

GM: Well, normally, it'll take it a few seconds, up to maybe a minute or so, to recover. And usually, it'll get up, and while its rear legs may continue to be stiff, it will hop off and get away from whatever made it faint to start with. [both laugh] And I don't blame it, I'd do the same thing. I'd want to be away from somebody screaming at me.

JVD: Now, which is your star fainter?

GM: We have several. We have one that is a registered animal. There is a registry for our goats. His name is Bobby G. He is a fantastic fainter. We have won that we named Death Actor. He'll fall over to anything.

JVD: What's so special about Bobby G though? What do you have to do to get Bobby G to faint?

GM: Well, Bobby G is, he is a repeater. You can scare him and he'll fall down. He'll get back up and you can scare him again and he will fall down again. And he is just a, he's a real docile goat, a little shy, but he is a repeater fainter. He just, he never quits. [JVD chuckle] Most goats will be --

JVD: Like an Ever-Ready bunny or an Ever-Ready goat.

GM: [laughing] You got it. He's the Ever-Ready battery, he never wears out.

JVD: [both laugh] Now, how much fun is it to scare a goat?

GM: Well, because we've been around them for so long, our heart is with the goat, [both chuckle] and we just love the animal, and it's really, I don't consider it a fun thing. Many of my goats will faint on their own for other reasons. Sometimes, walking through the pasture they'll have a little piece of grass get rubbed along their belly and it'll scare them and they'll fall out. Let them do it on their on, I don't really don't call it fun.

JVD: Well, let me just ask you one last question then. Can you just give us a little summary about the Fainting Goat Festival? When is it? And you know, just what would be the highlight?

GM: We are having a two-day festival this year on October the 10th. On Saturday at 9 a.m., we'll be having a parade through town. Bobby G will be in the parade, that's for certain. I'm going to ride him on my --

JVD: You'll be clapping your hands behind him constantly.

GM: [laughing] Well, we'll just hope it's for applause.

JVD: Yeah, but he'll be lying on the road all the time, anyway.

GM: [chuckling] But we'll be giving him a ride rather than letting him walk because I think it's just too stressful for the animals to walk a couple of miles on hard pavement.

JVD: Especially when they're falling over all the time.

CH: From Our Archives, that's Gene McNutt -- a Tennessee farmer -- speaking to guest host Julie Van Dusen about his myotonic goats in 2003.

[ambient]

BTS Back?

CH: Today is the day that you've been waiting for -- if you are a massive fan of BTS. Which you are, so today is the day you've been waiting for. The K-pop superstars have been on hiatus since 2022 when all seven members of the group were forced to leave the loving embrace of their BTS ARMY and join the less loving embrace of the actual army. But today -- for two of the members at least -- that mandatory military service is complete. And absence seems to have made the hearts of frenzied fans grow even more frenzied. Fans -- who were urged not to show up at the discharge locations -- showed up in droves at the discharge locations. Hundreds gathered near two army bases just outside Seoul where the BTS members were released; some fans travelled from outside the country to be there. Now, I should stress that there's no word of an official end to the heartbreaking hiatus just yet. But two more BTS members will complete their military service in a few days' time. And the last will be released from duty at the end of the month. And at that point, I fully expect the former troops in BTS to rally the BTS troops.

The AIH Transcript For June 10, 2025

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