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The AIH transcript for June 11, 2025

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Stephanie Skenderis, sitting in for Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: City limits. His L.A. district was a target for ICE raids -- and a California Assemblymember says Donald Trump's deployment of the U.S. National Guard is making the city a testing ground for democracy itself.

CH: Fighting for Philomena. Her name has become synonymous with the scores of unmarried mothers whose children were sold to American families by Irish nuns. And now, Philomena Lee's daughter is fighting to make sure every survivor gets the compensation they're owed.

NK: God only knows what he'd be without him. Steven Page reflects on the musical genius of the Beach Boys' Brian Wilson -- and tells about the surreal moment Brian Wilson sang him his song, which is called "Brian Wilson".

CH: A scandal of the highest odour. The mayor of St. Mary's, Newfoundland hopes a shuttered fish sauce plant that's been stinking up the joint for two decades will be cleaned up at last.

NK: Ahead of their time. A satirical article claiming Cape Breton has its own new time zone that's 12 minutes ahead of the rest of Nova Scotia has been causing some confusion, for AI at least -- which doesn't seem to be in on the joke.

CH: It so rarely is. [NK chuckles] And...greens with envy. A Canadian author's cookbook titled Every Salad Ever is not sold on Amazon. But to the author's chagrin, Amazon was selling a fake version of the book, written by AI.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday Edition. Radio warns against taking the slaw into your own hands.

[theme]

Part 1: CALIF. Assemblymember, CDN Cookbook Dupe, Brian Wilson Obit

CALIF. Assemblymember

Guest: Isaac G. Bryan

CH: The constitutional showdown that began in Los Angeles this week appears to be growing -- with President Donald Trump threatening to send U.S. troops to other American cities, if their residents defy immigration authorities. This kind of deployment of federalized forces to help pacify U.S. citizens is virtually unprecedented in modern American history. And it may be spreading, but its epicentre is still in Los Angeles -- where Mayor Karen Bass spoke to reporters alongside some 30 other California mayors this afternoon.

SOUNDCLIP

KAREN BASS: A week ago, everything was peaceful in the city of Los Angeles and in all of the representatives behind me in their cities as well. Things began to be difficult on Friday when raids took place. And it's important that I begin there because that is the cause of the problems that have happened in the city of Los Angles and other cities. This was provoked by the White House. The reason why, we don't know. I posit that maybe we are part of a national experiment to determine how far the federal government can go in reaching in and taking over power from a governor, power from the local jurisdiction, and frankly, leaving our city and our citizens, our residents, in fear.

CH: Los Angeles mayor Karen Bass, speaking to reporters today about President Trump's deployment of National Guard troops and U.S. Marines to the city. Isaac G. Bryan is a Democratic member of the California State Assembly; he represents a Los Angeles district where ICE arrested a number of residents earlier this week. That's where we reached him.

NK: Assemblymember Bryan, what is it like in your district on the streets right now?

ISAAC G. BRYAN: It's very, very high anxiety. There's a lot of fear. There is a lot of sadness. There were a number of car washes across the Westside and in my district, where over two dozen community members were snatched out of their places of work. There were also patrons who were just getting their cars washed who were profiled and taken on site. There's a lot of fear right now.

NK: In addition to that fear and anxiety, and I'm going to ask you more about what those constituents are saying, but is there also protest and maybe even violence at this stage?

IGB: There is protest, but there is absolutely no violence. There's only very incredibly small pockets of violence that happen very late at night. Throughout the day, people are taking to the L.A. streets and they're demanding justice through peace, through solidarity, through action. We had some interfaith clergy last night in Grand Park in downtown Los Angeles praying in front of the National Guard. It's a beautiful showing of solidarity.

NK: What kind of impact is the president's deployment of the National Guard having on the ground from what you've seen? There have been some clashes between Angelino's and LAPD or sheriff's deputies, but not with the National Guard or the Marines, as we understand it.

IGB: It's because the National Guard don't want to be here. I can tell you that from personal experience. I went up to the federal building to try to get into David Huerta's arraignment. They were blocking entrance to the Federal Building, by the way, not just for me, but for undocumented community members who had court hearings of their own. But when I walked up to Federal Building and they wouldn't let me in, I was talking to the lead commander and they're just following orders. These are good soldiers. My brother served two tours in Iraq. My grandfather was in World War II. These guys are here to protect the country, and they don't understand why they've been deployed against citizens of this country in the war in Los Angeles that has been called by this president.

NK: David Huerta is, just for our listeners, a high-profile labour organizer who was taken into custody. From where you sit, why do you think the U.S. President is doing this?

IGB: It's hard to tell. I mean, for sure it's a distraction, but I think he's also testing the powers of the president. He believes himself to be a dictator-in-chief. He believes himself to be above the law in the singular voice of governance in this country. He's rejected the other two branches of government. And he wants to see what will happen if he pushes that. And that is why he is called in the military immediately. From the Marines to the National Guard, he is daring anybody to step up and to defy him. What he wasn't counting on is the courageous everyday people in Los Angeles who are willing to put their own bodies on the line, for their immigrant brothers and sisters, for our way of life, and for basic civility, due process, and the American way.

NK: California's governor, Gavin Newsom, as we've said on the program, is suing the U.S. president because of what he's done -- the deployments. The Trump administration doesn't seem deterred at this stage, perhaps not surprisingly. The White House press secretary responded to questions about this today.

SOUNDCLIP

KAROINE LEAVITT: The president called the governor on Friday evening and told him to let law enforcement in California do their jobs. And Los Angeles Police Department, by the way, are fantastic people. They are trying to do the work that they've so bravely signed up to do to enforce the law. But they have been kneecapped by incompetent Democrat policies and Democrat politicians who do not allow their local law enforcement to correspond and coordinate with federal immigration authorities.

NK: You heard what Karoline Leavitt had to say there, Assemblymember Bryan. Is it true what she's saying, that the LAPD does not help with these raids?

IGB: That's correct. And the reason that they don't help is because over 50 years, federal immigration has been the responsibility of the federal government. It is not on the burden of taxpayers in Los Angeles and in the state of California to enforce federal laws. That's what we pay federal taxes for, by the way. This is not the way to move us forward. This is not the direction our country should be going. And I want to thank the governor for stepping up. The governor has decided, along with Mayor Bass, that they're going to protect Californians and Los Angeles. And it's not unsurprising to me that the president lies about his communications with folks. He lies about his communications with foreign leaders. Anything that he can do to appear tough while demonstrating an absolute weakness in leading is the way that he's decided to govern. And we've seen this time and time again.

NK: Yeah, the governor said they did not speak. The president has shown, and we've talked about, you know, legal decisions, that he's not necessarily swayed by those or legal arguments. What do you think Los Angeles or California can do to fight back?

IGB: I think California is a microcosm of this entire country. This isn't about immigration, it's about, are we as a country willing to allow rule by violence, rule by force and authoritarianism to dictate our way of life? And the 10 million people in L.A. County and the 40 million people of California, the one in eight total Americans who call our state home. Are saying no. In fact, they're resoundingly saying, hell no. This man is not the singular governing voice of our country. We all have a voice in this democracy. We are governed by the people and for the people. People power is undefeated This is a moment in American history and it's time for folks to decide what side will you sit on. Will you sit on the side of the people, or will you fit on the side? Of an authoritarian who is trying to demonstrate that he is bigger than all of us?

NK: Before we let you go, Assemblymember Bryan, you mentioned the anxieties of your constituents where a lot of the raids have been unfolding. What are you telling them?

IGB: I'm telling them that they're not alone. I'm telling them that I will be out there with you. I will be in these streets with you. I will be in the community with you. I am telling them to pray and to keep faith in things bigger than themselves. And I'm them to get organized and to stay organized. If we are truly the democracy that we have been for the last several hundred years, then this is an American moment where the people have to stand up and say enough. And through that collective action, we can organize our voices to demand the humanity and the change and the civility that is becoming of our nation. This is a dark, dark moment, but the people are the light.

NK: Assemblymember Bryan, I appreciate this. Thank you for your time.

IGB: Thank you so much.

CH: Isaac G. Bryan is a Democratic member of the California State Assembly. And we reached him in Los Angeles.

[indie rock]

CDN Cookbook Dupe

Guest: Greta Podleski

CH: Imitation is supposed to be the sincerest form of flattery. And yet, Greta Podleski could not be less flattered. She's a bestselling Canadian cookbook author. And her latest title, Every Salad Ever, is Canadian-made in every sense. It's even being sold exclusively by the Canadian bookseller Indigo. And that's why you won't find it on Amazon. But you will find a cookbook called Every Salad Ever with the name Greta Podleski above the title. We reached Greta Podleski, the real one, in Sarnia, Ontario.

NK: Greta, how did you first find out that this fake was up there being sold on Amazon?

GRETA PODLESKI: Well, interestingly, it was an American that contacted me over email to say that his friends told him about the book and that he should get it. And he searched for it on Amazon, was suspicious, sent me the email with the link. And when I looked at it, my heart sank. And my first thought was, please don't be on Amazon Canada. And sure enough, there it was.

NK: Oh no! And was this American who wrote to you familiar with your actual work and your other work as well? What, you know, what tipped them off?

GP: He didn't seem familiar with my previous work, but it was his friends in Canada gushing about my new cookbook that made him want it. And so, the first thing people normally do is they search Amazon. And he found this listing, and for some reason, he thought it was suspicious. So, he sent it to me and said, is this your book? Should I be buying it? And I wrote him back obviously and told him it was not my book and I had nothing to do with it. Then I searched amazon.ca and it was there. And it was classified already as a bestseller, and so you can imagine how I felt.

NK: Oh my gosh! I think people are probably screaming at their radios or phones right now, just thinking about that. What does this fake cover look like?

GP: It uses my exact book title, Every Salad Ever, in large font. My name appears at the top above the title. Strangely, there is another author's name listed below the title, and when I clicked on that, I found out that this fake author also has probably 15 other AI-generated books that they're trying to sell. It's just black and white. People have criticized it, saying that there's no index, there's no page numbers, it's repetitive recipes for one or two people, no imagination, all these negative reviews were posted. And some people were fooled into thinking it was my work, which to me, honestly, was devastating.

NK: Do you know anything more about this person who has put their name on this?

GP: There's not really any way for me to know who's behind it. I would love to know, but it's just clearly somebody taking advantage of an opportunity here. I am exclusive to Indigo. So, when people do the search bar on Amazon, nothing was coming up. I bet there were thousands and thousands of searches for my name and that book title. And somebody went, I think I can make some money off of this by putting up a pretend book. It was $19, so it was cheap. It made it to number 60 overall on Amazon, which when you realize they sell millions and millions of titles is quite a feat to get to number 60. Unfortunately, a lot of Canadians were duped by it and I felt so sick about it. That's when I decided to take matters into my own hands and figure out what to do.

NK: Yeah, you spoke to CTV News initially. That's where we saw your story first. Amazon sent CTV news a statement saying it has, quote, proactive and reactive methods that help us detect content that violates our guidelines, whether AI-generated or not. We invest significant time and resources to ensure our guidelines are followed, and remove books that do not adhere to those guidelines, unquote. What if anything, has Amazon done to take this fake down?

GP: Well, they did take it down eventually. Interestingly, within one hour of the fake book being taken down, a replacement book by the same scammers went up.

NK: Oh my!

GP: So, all they did was take my name off the cover. It still said Every Salad Ever. They probably got ChatGPT to design a new cover in 60 seconds and they put it back up. It was right back up. But it just goes to show you what is possible now when you combine the number of fraud and scams out there with artificial intelligence. Things happen very quickly. But to Amazon's credit, they ended up taking that one down, too. I did file a formal complaint with them several days ago. I know people have called on my behalf. I posted about the scam on my Facebook page. People were outraged. I have people who support me from across the country. So, they went to Amazon on the fake book to post reviews saying this is a scam. Don't buy it. It's not Greta's book. I think all of that combined helped to draw the attention to it so that Amazon would remove it.

NK: But overall, what can you and other authors do, and also people who love books and are buying them?

GP: Well, first of all, whoever the people, person, entity behind this scam Every Salad Ever was, they made money from this. They made, I would love to know how much they made from it. And remember, Amazon probably took half of it. So, there was profit to be made here from a book that I put my heart and soul and blood, sweat, and tears into for over a year. And that infuriates me because it's just so unfair. But I'm gonna keep checking because honestly, I wouldn't even be shocked in a week from now if it reappears. That's just the way the world is working now. There's a lot of fraud out there.

NK: Is there legal recourse for you to take?

GP: Uh, I think, there probably could be for reputational damage because of the negative reviews that were posted by people who thought it was my book. And then, it was reviewed as one star with many reviews because it was a garbage book. So, that really hurt me and that really upset me. But I feel like there's very little that we can do other than to complain when it happens and to be diligent when shopping, especially if you're going to buy online. I mean, obviously, if you walk into a bookstore, you're not going to get scammed. But when you order online, usually it's legit. Sometimes it's not. So, it's a bit of a buyer beware situation.

NK: Greta, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

GP: Thank you.

CH: Greta Podleski is the author of Every Salad Ever -- which is not sold on Amazon. She was in Sarnia, Ontario. We reached out to Amazon for comment, but we did not hear back before airtime.

[folk]

Brian Wilson Obit

Guest: Steven Page

CH: He was a Beach Boy who couldn't surf. A musical visionary who took the band from its surf-rock beginnings to boundary-pushing wall-of-sound masterpieces that defined the 1960s and redefined the possibilities of pop music. Brian Wilson died today. He was 82 years old. He had a golden touch in the studio, sending 13 Beach Boys singles into the top-10 -- three to number one. And then came Pet Sounds -- with its complex arrangements, new lyrical depth and experimentation. Paul McCartney once told an interviewer, "I’ve just bought my kids each a copy of it for their education in life — I figure no one is educated musically ’til they’ve heard that album. But Brian Wilson became known for his increasingly eccentric behaviour -- and struggles with mental illness -- made worse by drug use. And that was the phase of his life that a young Canadian musician was thinking about when he wrote this:

[Brian Wilson by the Barenaked Ladies/Canadian rock]

CH: When Steven Page of the Barenaked Ladies wrote that song -- he had no idea that he'd one day not only get to meet Brian Wilson -- but that Brian Wilson would record and perform his own version of Steven Page's song. We reached Mr. Page in Toronto.

NK: Steven, I wonder if you could take us back in time. You're in the studio, the Cello Studios, your producer says, I have a surprise for you. What happened?

STEVEN PAGE: [chuckling] So, we are making an album at this point. We're making our Maroon album with Don Was as the producer. And Don says to us, okay, come into Studio One here. We're going to, I've got a surprise for you. We all sit at the console. And then he brings in Brian Wilson, and Brian Wilson walks into the studio. And this is the studio where the Beach Boys made Pet Sounds, their most legendary album, one of the greatest albums of all time. And there he is, standing in the studio, 10 years after I'd written the song with his name in the title. He says, I have something special for you. And he presses play on the CD player and out of the speakers comes Brian and his new band singing our song, Brian Wilson. And that is the most, like, shocking and amazing thing that had ever happened to me.

NK: I'm going to fall over and I'm not you, obviously, and I didn't write the song. [chuckling] So how did you, I mean, do you even try to keep your cool in a moment like that?

SP: Well, just, we're trying to listen.

NK: Right.

SP: And I think part of it is like, well, you know, how much, is he making fun of us? [both laugh] I'm sure while he's singing the song, he's thinking, are they making fun to me? But they played the song. And he changed one of the lyrics from when I say, playing my guitar and building castles in the sun, he sings playing my piano and building castles and the sun. He just turned to me in the studio and said, I don't play guitar. [both laugh]

NK: You're like, I know. I know. [chuckling]

SP: Yeah, you know, it was working for me when I wrote it in my parents basement in 1989. But, you know, then later on that summer they played at what was then the Molson Amphitheatre, now the Budweiser Stage in Toronto, and invited us to the show. So, I got to watch Brian Wilson with his band in soundcheck. And, you know, Brian Wilson, I think famously, people weren't sure how engaged he was in those live concerts in that era, like he could look like he was kind of checked out. But watching him in the sound check, he would be rehearsing each of the singers and, like, you know, directing them as to which note they should sing and how they should approach it and so on. And you could see he really was truly engaged in the music, which was amazing. And then, they invited us to come and sing Fun Fun Fun and Love and Mercy with them on stage that night, which was mind-blowing. But add to that the first song they did that night was our song, Brian Wilson. And, of course, everybody in the audience just, like, turns around and looks at me. I don't know whether to, like, wave or hide under my seat. Like, how do you respond to that?

NK: No, you just soak it in, I guess, right?

SP: Exactly. Now, you know, now that I'm older and more mature, I might be able to appreciate it. At the time, I just, I wanted to scream.

NK: When did you first press play on the Beach Boys? When did they first enter your life?

SP: You know, as a kid, I did not love the Beach Boys. I was a huge Beatles fan, of course, I still am. But I always saw the Beach Boys as being kind of, I don't know, like lightweight. I didn't understand the depth of their music and, like, what they did that was special. And then, I had a friend in university who made me a mix tape as we did back in the '80s of all the kind of the deep cuts and the art music that the Beach Boys did. And I understood very quickly, uh, how rich their music was.

NK: What was it about the songwriting, but also the composition, the technical stuff he was doing in the studio, too, that influenced you so much? What was it about what he did there? It was revolutionary, certainly. That's not overstating it.

SP: Right, no, it was absolutely revolutionary. Because, you know, although they are, especially in their early records, they're so closely associated with kind of good time rock and roll. And then, you add to that the complexity of the vocal harmonies that come from his love of acts like The Four Freshmen, but then there is also this influence that comes from his favourite work of art, which is Rhapsody in Blue. Like, you get these kind of elements of Gershwin and of classical music that hadn't made their way into pop and rock yet. It was the first time that we were starting to see the real artistry of, like, straddle both the commercial world, you know, that paved the way for hard rock and for progressive rock and experimental music.

NK: And reading the response from fans to Brian Wilson's passing and fellow musicians as well, Questlove is one of them. And he says what you were saying, you know, when he was 10 years old, like, I'm not interested in this music. What is this going to teach me? But his dad in Philadelphia loved it. But when he started listening to it, it started resonating with him. And he was saying that he's not sure without Brian Wilson if so many others that came after would have felt safe or able to express the sadness that people were often ridiculed and punished for. Because, you know, it's such breezy music, but it's there, what he was going through. Did you feel that way as well?

SP: That's an amazing point, and it actually does lead me exactly where I was thinking was that in the '80s when you would read about Brian Wilson in Rolling Stone or that type of thing, when people would talk about him, they talked about him as a casualty of rock and roll. He was almost a punchline to a joke. So, his kind of eccentric behaviour, or behaviours that were expression of depression, of sadness, of mental health struggles, um, became interpreted as kind of eccentricities that were laughable. And I knew as I started to learn that stuff that there was something more to it. I didn't know what it was. I was still, you know, in my teens, and we didn't speak about mental health struggles then the way that we do now. But I understood that there was a connection that I felt that was deeper. There was about that the way he was able to marry the light and the happy with the dark and the sad from as early as songs like In My Room is a perfect example. But as he grew as an artist, it became much more complex. That was hugely influential to me. That's what the song, Brian Wilson, is really about. It's about me trying to come to terms with my own mental health struggles and depression, but also the power that music has to help lift people out of that.

NK: I really appreciate this, Steven. Thank you.

SP: Thanks, Nil.

CH: We reached Steven Page in Toronto.

[ambient]

Part 2: Philomena’s Law, Cape Breton Time Zone

Philomena’s Law

Guests: Jane Libberton, Liam Conlon

CH: Ireland is finally confronting a painful period -- one that's become synonymous with the name Philomena. Philomena Lee's story was chronicled in a book and 2013 Oscar-nominated movie starring Judi Dench. Both are about Ms. Lee's 50-year search for her son -- who was sold by Irish nuns to an American couple against her will. In 2014, Ms. Lee told As It Happens her story.

SOUNDCLIP

PHILOMENA LEE: The lady they came to adopt, she came to pick a little girl out. She didn't want a little boy, because she's already had three boys of her own. So, she came and she picked this little girl up. But every time they came to look at Mary, Anthony was with her. He was always looking after her, you know? And then, when they finally came to take them away one day, he went up to the mother the last time she came, gave him a kiss, and she said, I can't leave him here. I just can't leave him there. So, she rang her husband in Missouri. And he said, oh, bring him along as well. So, that's why he went off quickly in the end. I just saw the end of him going off in the car. And this nice nun that was in the convent, she ran me up the stairs and all I could see was his little face peering out the back of the window, and that was the last I ever saw of him.

CAROL OFF: You remember that moment clearly? Can you see that image?

PL: Oh do I! I have never forgotten that moment in my whole life, and I don't suppose ever will.

CH: Philomena Lee talking with our former host Carol Off in 2014. Ms. Lee eventually did track down her son, only to learn he had died of AIDS in 1995. Her story opened the floodgates -- prompting tens of thousands of unmarried mothers who'd been shunned from society and forced to work in abbeys without pay to come forward with similar stories. Ireland has begun compensating them for those abuses. But for survivors living in the U.K., getting that compensation means losing benefits from the British government. A new bill called Philomena's Law hopes to change that. Yesterday, it was debated in Westminster Hall. Jane Libberton is Philomena Lee's daughter. We reached her in St Albans, England. And Liam Conlon is the Labour MP who introduced the bill. He's in London.

NK: Jane, I think it's fair to say that anyone who heard that interview, or knows the story, perhaps saw the movie about what happened to your mother and so many other women, can never forget and get that image out of their heads, but your family, your mother, obviously, lived it. Do you remember the first time she told you?

JANE LIBBERTON: Oh, the first time she told me, yes, absolutely. I'm thinking it was 20-something years ago now that she first told me. And she did come out with it. She'd been home to Ireland and her brother knew the story, and he said to her to come home and tell myself and my brother. And as soon as she told me, she just thought that we were going to reject her, that we didn't want to know her, because that's what she'd been led to believe by the nuns. But the first thing I did was throw my arms around her. I felt so sorry for her. And actually, hearing that clip just now brings a lot of it back, yeah.

NK: It's quite something to hear her.

JL: Yes.

NK: And to hear you. So, I appreciate this. Knowing everything that she has gone through, and other women there went through, to not get this compensation or to lose other compensation because they sign on to this, I mean, was that something you saw coming? Did you think that that was going to be another hurdle they would have to contend with?

JL: No, not at all. I didn't even consider it. I didn't think about it. It just didn't cross my mind until, obviously, Liam got in touch and mentioned it. And I didn’t really think it was going to affect my Mum too much because she's on pensions and things like that. But it will. She's getting older and frailer, so she's probably going to have to get carers at some point. So, the compensation money, she'd have to pay for carers out of that. So, it does actually affect her in a way that I hadn't considered.

NK: And let me ask you, Liam, just if you could break it down for our listeners, what kinds of benefits would women living in the U.K. lose if they decide to receive this other compensation that they are entitled to for this historic wrong?

LIAM CONLON: Absolutely, so it's anything what we would call in the U.K., what's called means-tested. So it's any benefit that's kind of the eligibility of it is dependent on your income and the amount of savings that you have in your account. So, things like pension credits, housing benefits, the support you might get for social care, so things, you know, having a nurse come out to your house maybe once a day or twice a week. People are being awarded compensation up to sort of 80,000, I think, up 100,000 euros or pounds. That you'll then be seen as, okay, this person's got a lot of money. They've got a lot of savings. They don't need this pension credit anymore, or this housing benefit. And so, you know, all of that the compensation will run down until you've spent it all, and then you'll have to reapply for it again. So, it kind of nullifies the point of the compensation. And as Philomena has said herself, you know, it doesn't right all the wrongs, but it's an important acknowledgement of what happened alongside an apology. You know, that this had a significant impact on every corner of a survivor's life. And that's why it's so wrong that this would happen.

NK: And you reached out to Jane straight away when you learned that this is what it was going to be unless someone intervened.

LC: Yeah, so, I mean, I've reached out to lots of survivor groups as well. And, I think, the thing, you know, as I'm a brand new MP; I got elected in July last year in South London. And I've got a lot of Irish family. And so, I was aware of this issue. And, for me, what I think, you know, Philomena is a really inspirational and courageous woman. And I think what she has done more than anyone is brought the scandal of the mother and baby homes to a global audience. And so, if you say to someone on the street in London, mother and baby home, they'll look at you a bit puzzled. But if you said to them, have you seen the film Philomena? They'll go, oh yes, I know what that means. So, I think, what Philomena has done is through her story, she has brought the scandal to a global audience and now also catalyzed support for this change to protect the survivors.

NK: Jane, you're also pushing for the Irish government to expand eligibility overall for this compensation.

JL: Yes.

NK: How so?

JL: Absolutely. Well, they excluded anybody, any child, under six months. If they were under six months when they were adopted, they were excluded from the scheme. And that's up to 24,000 people who were in these institutions.

NK: Why?

JL: I don't know. Nobody could give us a reason. I think the minister was believed to have said, oh, they won't remember because they were babies.

NK: Oh my!

JL: So, you know, it doesn't really take into account that they were forced family separations and loss of identities and all that kind of thing. Whether they were one month old or four or five years old, it's still the same kind of hurt that people go through.

NK: You do have broad support, Liam. And I understand more than 100 MPs have now signed a letter of support as well. What does that do in terms of how hopeful you are about whether this will be successful, ultimately?

LC: It's huge. Look, I think there's two things. And I said this in, we had a debate in parliament yesterday. And you're right that over 100 MPs and peers from lots of different parties, you know, every main party in the U.K., there were MPs who signed that letter. There's really strong precedent on this. So, the mechanism to ring fence the payment is the same thing that we did for the Windrush scandal in Britain. And the same we did very recently for a blood contamination scandal. What's unprecedented, and what would be a landmark change in the law in Britain, is it would be the first time we've done it for payments from a foreign government. There's a hurdle there, but it's one that we need to happen. I said in the debate yesterday, everything's unprecedented until it happens, and this needs to happen. And I'm going to keep campaigning until it does happen.

NK: Jane, your mother is in her 90s now. How is she doing?

JL: She's 92 now, she's definitely getting frailer in the last year or so, but she's still the Philomena that you all know and love.

NK: Ninety-two, she's lived quite a life. And she's been through so much, as we all have seen and learned. How does she feel about where things are at with this part of the story?

JL: I think, you know, I think she's very happy about it. She recognizes that there's a need for it. I mean, the whole thing with my mum is she never realized that she had a story to tell. And, you know, and her story, as Liam said, has made so much impact around the world and to so many people. But she just sees it as it was just her life. And it happened to, obviously, hundreds of other people as well, girls as well. But, you know, she's pleased that this is gonna be a lasting legacy in her name. And, you know, hopefully that it will be successful.

NK: Jane, Liam, I'm very glad to speak with both of you today. Thanks very much for your time.

JL: Oh, thank you.

LC: Thank you very much.

CH: Jane Libberton is Philomena Lee's daughter; she’s in St Albans, England. Liam Conlon is a Labour MP, and he’s in London.

[sombre instrumental]

FOA: St. Mary’s Stink

CH: The Atlantic Seafood Sauce Company in St. Mary's, Newfoundland and Labrador closed about 20 years ago. But residents still think about it every day. Because it reeks. Imagine a giant vat of rotting fish, and then imagine pouring some pineapple juice in it. Then, imagine leaving it out for a couple of decades. People there don’t have to imagine it. And they also haven't been able to clean it up. Until now: the mayor of St. Mary's has announced that, finally, the provincial government has set aside money in the recent budget to clean up the plant. In 2023, a CBC investigation revealed that Environment Canada found the stuff inside the vats was acutely lethal to fish. But they never informed the town. Mayor Steve Ryan told us at the time how that made his town feel.

SOUNDCLIP

SR: The smell! The smell is just unbearable. But your reporter at the time, he was there Friday, he said he said… he said it gets into your throat and it won't get out. [laughing]

NK: That Rob Antle, yeah.

SR: He said… Rob said, it just won’t leave. It just stays there. And our community is not that big. It's 309 residents. But the plant is right in, I'd say, the nucleus of the community. It's right in the centre. Like the majority of our people are around the plant, within a half-kilometre radius. We have a resident across the road that lives, I'd say, about 60 feet from the building, 60 feet. She's worried today. And she was always worried. One lady today, Muriel, she says she spent the whole day crying.

NK: Oh.

SR: The whole day crying, yeah.

NK: You're just at the mercy of the wind, too.

SR: Yeah. Whatever way the wind blows. Usually, August, September and October is the worst months. It's the fall weather. The prevailing winds really bring the smell out to the… to the local residents and say towards… up towards our school, our ballfield. And it's really… the other day, I was telling Rob, I said, this is a good day. We picked a good day to do this. I said, there's days here that you would not stand up here and do this interview.

CH: That was St. Mary's mayor Steve Ryan speaking with Nil in 2023. The provincial government has set aside money in the recent budget to finally clean up the putrid plant.

[lullaby]

Kamloops Elder Award

CH: Denise McCuaig says she's still pinching herself. The Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association recently awarded the Metis elder one of its highest honours: the Professional Champion Award. In a press release, the association said Ms McCuaig was known for her, quote, "leadership in culturally safe mental health services and Indigenous health equity across Canada." Unquote. Previous recipients include the late Murray Sinclair and Cindy Blackstock. Here's Denise McCuaig reflecting on the award.

SOUNDCLIP

DENISE MCCUAIG: The Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association is celebrating their 60th anniversary, and they've been on a long journey of looking at how counselling and psychotherapy services are delivered. They were well into their work on a code of ethics and standards of practice that included perspectives of Indigenous wellbeing. And they wanted to respond to the 94 calls to action in the Truth and Reconciliation Report. So, I guess, I walked alongside them for a few years, and they felt that I gave them some better tools to do that.

DOUG HERBERT: How did you help people understand counselling and therapy through more of an Indigenous lens?

DM: Well, I started from lived and living experience. So, probably like many of your listeners, I've experienced depression in profound and debilitating ways. And so, I myself have accessed counselling many times in my life. And not always was it helpful. I'd say I sit here today because much of it was, but there are stereotypes and intolerance when it comes to First Nations and Inuit and Métis people, and this profession is not exempt from that.

DH: So, you've been working.

DM: I was really passionate about change. [chuckling]

DH: Yes, I understand. It sounds like you've been working to try to make things a little bit more open-minded and helping your colleagues approach, you know, counselling with an Indigenous person differently.

DM: Mm-hmm. I really took them through some difficult emotional journeys. This is not always easy work, but I try and ground them in looking at their own experiences and histories, who they are as individuals, how they experience privilege in their lives, how that feeds their unconscious bias and may impact the way that they interact with Indigenous people. And it can be really emotional work, but they were really committed. I think a moment happened last Friday, when I received my award, when a counsellor that had been part of this journey approached me and said she had really invested in cultural safety training and trying to understand more about the history of First Nations and Métis people, and that I was the first person she had done that with where she didn't leave feeling guilty or hopeless. And I think that's a pretty big compliment. It's amazing to think that something that I've done has made that kind of difference for someone.

CH: That's Denise McCuaig, talking to the CBC's Doug Herbert. Ms. McCuaig is currently an executive director of health transformation and capacity building at Healthcare Excellence Canada, and she’s based in Kamloops.

[R&B]

Cape Breton Time Zone

Guest: Janel Comeau

CH: Cape Breton knows it will be confusing. And that's exactly why it has established its very own time zone -- 12 minutes ahead of Halifax and 18 minutes behind Newfoundland. Well, it hasn't, actually. But some of the world's biggest tech platforms were pretty convinced it had. If you searched that question, there was a good chance that Google or Meta's AI-generated result would have told you it had. That raises questions. Chiefly: why? Where did the AI get that ludicrous idea? Well, in this case the source appears to be one article from one source: the satirical Canadian news site The Beaverton. Janel Comeau wrote that article. And we reached her in Halifax earlier today.

NK: Janel, time zones are a pretty big deal for us here at As It Happens, so let's just do a quick check. What time is it in Cape Breton right now?

JANEL COMEAU: Uh, well, that's tough to say. [both laugh].

NK: Uh, is it?

JC: I guess it depends who you ask, apparently. Officially, it's 5:20.

NK: Okay. Thank you. [JC laughs] And a couple seconds. Okay phew! We got that out of the way. [JC laughs some more] Explaining jokes isn't the most fun I know, especially for those who make those jokes. But for our listeners who haven't read your Beaverton piece, and it's not a new one, it's been, the piece was published a while back, right? What, what --

JC: Yeah! it came out sometime last year. [chuckle]

NK: Yeah, what's the crux of it?

JC: So, the crux of it is poking fun at Maritimes time zones. So, I think most people hopefully know that Nova Scotia and Newfoundland are half-an-hour off from each other, which is inherently funny, I think. [both laugh] So, I wrote a piece to take it one step further, suggesting that Cape Breton Island was going to have their own time zone; that they were very tired of being ignored, and that they were going to be 12 minutes ahead of Nova Scotian and 18 minutes behind Newfoundland.

NK: Obviously, yeah! [JC laughs] And so, when did you realize that Google and Meta AI were using your satirical piece to answer very real questions about time zones?

JC: [laughing] Um, I had gone looking for some of my old Beaverton pieces just to gather some writing samples for myself, because it's tough out here for a writer in the world of AI. And I realized underneath the piece, there were sort of those Meta AI, you know, when you go on Facebook now, and AI will prompt you, like, questions to give you more information. So, I was clicking on them. And I realized very quickly, like, oh, it's treating this as a real article. It was, like, find out more information about when this time zone change will take effect. How will this affect businesses? I was like, oh my God, it thinks this is real. So, I went searching on Meta and sure enough, it was popping up, yes, the time zone will be changing. It will be 12 minutes ahead. And I thought that was very funny. So, I was, like, surely Google was not also fooled by this. So, I just Googled, "does Cape Breton Island have its own time zone?" And it popped up with, yes, it absolutely does.

NK: Oh my goodness!

JC: It's 12 minutes ahead of Nova Scotia. [laughing]

NK: And did you feel like a genius at that point, or just terrified?

JC: Yeah, kind of like in between, like, this is very funny and, like, oh no! [laughing] What have I done?

NK: This is where we're at, yeah. [JC laughs] But is any part of it heartening, given, you know, you just mentioned how tough it is to be a writer in this time of AI, but the fact that it can't, apparently, detect satire or sarcasm at this stage. Does that, did that give you any relief?

JC: I mean, it's a little alarming for anybody who uses these tools. And they're, obviously, we don't have much choice about AI at this point; it's on our phones and our computers, whether we want it to or not. But it is a little heartening because as a writer, we're some of the most affected by this generative AI. And it sort of felt like there was nothing we could do. But, apparently, we can. We can just feed it bad information and embarrass it. [laughing] Make it look bad, I guess. And that's something.

NK: And, obviously, humans make mistakes, too. But when you initially published this, wrote this for the Beaverton, did anybody believe it at that stage?

JC: I think people are sort of willing to believe a lot about the Maritimes.

NK: [meekly] Oh no...

JC: So, if you go under the comments of any Beaverton article, you will see the comment, I thought this was satire, this is real life. [laughing] And I do know a lot of people here locally in the Maritimes were sharing it with, like, friends and family in Cape Breton to sort of make fun of them, I think, more than anything. But yeah, I didn't think that I could fool Google. [laughing]

NK: Apparently. What about correcting this to set the record straight?

JC: Um, I, it's, it's still up. If you Google what --

NK: At this moment.

JC: If Cape Breton has its own time zone, yeah, you'll still find out, I actually think I've made it worse by sharing the error because I did, I thought it was funny. I went on to my social pages and sort of, [chuckling] I was like, look at this! This is kind of funny that it's picked this up as real. And the posts have gotten a lot of attention. So, I think I may actually have made it worse. Because now, instead of having just the one hit at the top for The Beaverton, there's like five or six hits now. [laughing]

NK: I, but aren't these, these sites supposed to be weeding out this sort of thing? [JC laughs] I mean, I don't know. Isn't that what they've said they, they do diligently?

JC: That's, I think that's the idea. [NK chuckles] I don't know if maybe what time it is on Cape Breton Island is just of no concern to the likes of Google, or. [laughing]

NK: What about Cape Bretoners? Are they enraged?

JC: [chuckling] I've been hearing a lot of, like, my mom thinks this is very funny, or my family up in Cape Breton. I've not heard from any tourists who've, like, missed their ferries as a result of this, but maybe they're out there. [laughing]

NK: It is the burden you'll have to bear, knowing that people may not have the time right now in Cape Breton. Are you going to be able to live with that for the rest of your life, Janel?

JC: [chuckle] Knowing that somebody may have not gotten to Greco Pizza before it closes, I don't know. It's a heavy cross to bear. [laughing]

NK: I've never been, but now I guess I have to. Janel, this has been a pleasure. Thank you.

JC: Thank you for having me.

CH: Janel Comeau is a freelance writer. We reached her earlier today in Halifax -- at the exact same time we would have reached her in Cape Breton.

[indie rock]

Part 3: Defence Spending: Economist, High Seas Treaty

Defence Spending: Economist

Guest: Todd Hirsch

CH: In less than two weeks now, Prime Minister Mark Carney will gather with other NATO leaders in the Hague. As you know, he's just pledged to meet NATO targets by spending two per cent of GDP on the Canadian military. But he'll very likely be asked to spend even more than that. The promise his government has already made means that Ottawa is spending an extra $9.3 billion dollars this year. And where that money will come from is not clear. Earlier this week, NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte warned that member countries will have invest more -- and figure out how.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK RUTTE: Look, if you do not do this, if you will not go to the five per cent, including the 3.5 per cent core defence spending, you could still have the National Health Service, or in other countries their health systems, the pension system, et cetera, but you'd better learn to speak Russian.

CH: Todd Hirsch is an economist. We reached him in Calgary.

NK: Todd, you heard what Mark Rutte is saying there. Is the choice NATO countries are looking at really that stark?

TODD HIRSCH: Well, I don't know if they're quite that stark. I think he's really underlining his point. But, you know, I think the whole conversation for European countries, for Canada, for all the NATO countries, is, you know, if we are going to be serious about this, we have to figure out how are we going to pay for it? And I think that is the upshot of, you know, what he's talking about. And also, the piece that I had written for the Globe and Mail.

NK: From where you sit, is this a worthy expenditure?

TH: I do think it is a worthy expenditure. I do it's overdue. We have been a laggard for many, many years in NATO, and that was sort of easy to slide by. But in 2025, the world is a different place, and it is much more urgent idea that we all need to carry our weight militarily. I wish it wasn't so, to be honest. I wish we could spend those billions and billions of dollars on something more productive like health care or education, or scientific research. Unfortunately, the world we live in does not allow us those choices. So, I am in favour of the prime minister's move to increase spending to get us to at least the two per cent of GDP. And now, if the goalpost shifts further down the road, that is going to have to be a different conversation.

NK: Yeah, and it appears that it's going to. I mean, that's the suggestion, right? That we're going to get to five. So, we'll have that conversation with you again. But at this point in time, Prime Minister Carney says there's not going to be a tax hike to pay for increased military spending. Defence Minister David McGinty was on our program yesterday, and said there were no major cuts coming. The defence minister said Canada is going to grow the economy to pay for all of this. And, of course, he was echoing his prime minister there. Is that going to work? Can you pay for what you're seeing in this defence budget just by growing the economy?

TH: Well, there's an economist answer to that and then there's a politician answer to it. [NK chuckles] And it isn't possible. I mean, we should always be expected to grow the economy as a way of contributing to that. But even this NATO requirement, it's two per cent of GDP. So, you know, even basic Grade 4 math would tell you that if you're growing the size of the economy, it increases the amount of you need to put towards your military. So, it's a bit of fairy dust to say to Canadians, we're just gonna grow the economy and we don't need to make any tough choices, or tough decisions around where that money is going to come from.

NK: What do you think those choices are going to have to be to find all of these billions? What will Ottawa have to do from where you sit?

TH: Well, I used to teach public finance at the University of Calgary and I always would tell the students there's really only three options. You can either cut spending and cut programs, you can increase taxes, or the third option is you can add it to the deficit, borrow the money, and kick the can further down the road. None of those are pleasant options. Politically, the easiest one is add to the debt. But we've been through this story before. You know, Canada back in the '90s, some listeners will recall, the debt crisis that Canada was getting into because our deficits and debt had grown unsustainably high. And no one is talking now about what kind of debt treadmill are we getting onto here? If we're not going to cut spending, if we're going to increase taxes, it really only leaves us that option of piling it onto the existing deficit, and growing that debt and letting someone else down the road deal with it.

NK: Prime Minister Carney, given his background, he would know all of this, certainly, right? This can't be news to him.

TH: [chuckle] He would know all of this very well.

NK: So then, does it surprise you that he's not being more vocal, more frank, potentially, with Canadians at this stage?

TH: Well, not really. I mean, now his role is different. Now he is the prime minister, and that is a different role than being the head of a central bank or being a bank economist. And he needs to speak to Canadians in a different way, but I would hope that he's also speaking to them in an honest way. In other words, not sugarcoating that we can just grow the economy and sprinkle fairy dust on this matter, and all will be well. You know he needs to, I hope we will see this in the fall budget, to present some tough choices to Canadians. What's it going to be? Some really deep cuts in discretionary spending? Is it going be increase in taxes? Maybe not on middle income earners, maybe not income tax. Other ways the government has of raising taxes, business taxes, or fees, or levies. Or is it, you know, are we just going to be honest and say we don't want to do either of those things and we're just going pile it onto the debt and ignore it?

NK: Do you think Canadians are prepared for what might come, the sacrifices that they might have to make?

TH: Well, I don't think so. Nobody wants to talk about tax increases. No one likes the idea of adding to the deficit. Everyone has an opinion about, well, we should cut other useless programs, or find efficiencies, or trim the waste, or whatever language they want to use. The problem is, what is a useless program to one Canadian is an essential service to another one. And my piece in the Globe and Mail pointed out, if you want to start cutting, there really isn't that much discretionary budget Ottawa has to cut from. Of the roughly $490 billion in spending, only about $90 of it, $90 billion, is discretionary program spending. The rest of it is transfers to individuals like old age security, or guaranteed income supplement, employment insurance, or direct transfers to the provinces, or it's debt repayment. Those things aren't really negotiable. It's not program spending that you could say, well, maybe we could do without this program or that program. So, it's not that easy to trim $9-plus-billion out of a $90 billion discretionary budget. That is going to take some really, really tough choices. There's going to be very little consensus on what is essential and what is useless.

NK: Todd, I appreciate this. Thank you.

TH: Thanks for having me on the show.

CH: Todd Hirsch is an economist. He’s in Calgary.

[surf rock]

Senior Who Planks

CH: Planking is one of those exercises that looks easy, until you do it. Within seconds of getting into position, your arms are shaking, you're gasping for air, your core is spasming violently. And after an eternity, you collapse in a heap, only to realize that the eternity was 14 seconds. But 84-year-old Suzanna Wish of Osoyoos, B.C., makes it sound like a piece of cake. She spent months training to hold a plank for more than seven minutes, to earn a spot in the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest plank by a woman in her age group. She talked to the CBC about how she prepared for the official attempt this week.

SOUNDCLIP

SUZANNA WISH: My daughter introduced me to the plank many years ago, and I was fascinated with it. And when I started at the gym, after the doctor had told me I was getting a dowager's hum, I signed up at the gym, and I had to do about an hour of stretching before I could do any weight lifting or anything like that. And so, I was going through my prelude, and I always would start with the plank. And the stronger I got with it, the more fascinated I became with it. And there we are. I ended up yesterday trying for Guinness.

CHRIS WALKER: Now, this sounds easy. It is not easy to hold it for very long. Isn't that right?

CH: That was Suzanna Wish, a senior from Osoyoos, B.C., who this week attempted a Guinness World Record for planking. She was talking to Chris Walker, the host of Daybreak South in Kelowna earlier today.

[bluegrass swing]

Encore: Returned Wedding Photo

CH: Weddings are important. That's why we take so many pictures. But until recently, Sarah Ruggirello had missed out on one of the pictures of her grandparents' big day. She hadn't even known it existed. Then, a friend tagged her on a social media post by the Sterling Heights Public Library in Michigan, entitled Lost and Found Love Story. A volunteer there was going through some donated books when she found a photo of Frank and Josephine Ruggirello, dated 1953 -- and put out a call hoping someone would recognize them. Their granddaughter did. She told 7 News Detroit her grandparents were married for 67 years, and she's excited to frame the picture and hang it in her house. That reminded us of the vinyl Katie Ornelas bought for less than five dollars in a Texas thrift store. Its cover read The Modern Jazz Quartet at Music Inn, but turned out an audio recording of Phil and Donna Schmidt's wedding ceremony -- which she'd discovered over 50 years after it had taken place. Last November, Katie and Donna talked to Nil about the discovery.

SOUNDCLIP

DONNA SCHMIDT: We listened to it right after we were married. It came and we were excited and we listened to it. And that was, I think probably maybe once, once or twice. And then I got tech safely into the cabinet. And our children say that they had never listened to it, which isn't that awful.

NK: [chuckles] Well, I think this happens a lot with wedding videos or those kinds of things. But wedding vinyl, when our producer Cassie raised the story, we all asked, what's wedding vinyl? Is it like a playlist from your wedding dance? What is it? Tell our listeners why you had this made.

DS: Well, don't forget, this was 58 years ago. Technology was so different. There were no videos. So my mother had this record made which was, which was genius. And we were thrilled to get it.

NK: And was it, is it just every moment of the wedding as if it were a video, but just the audio of the entire ceremony and all of that sort of thing?

DS: It's an audio of the entire ceremony from, as I recall, Katie knows it better than I do because she just listened to it. [KO: laughs]

NK: Well, let's bring in Katie. And I love this. You're already corresponding, obviously, as all of this unfolded, but this is the first time you're on a line together. So I'm very honoured to be in the midst of this.

KATIE ORNELAS: Yes, I've...

DS: Thanks for bringing us together Nil.

KO: Yeah. Thank you so much. We've just been having a lot of fun emailing and texting and getting to know each other, and I'm really excited to meet Danny tomorrow. But yes, I have to tell you, I haven't listened to it in its entirety, but I have listened to, you know, pick up the, would you say arm on the on the record player. And I just kind of bounced around and yeah, it's just their beautiful ceremony. And...

NK: I was going to ask when you dropped the needle on the vinyl the first time thinking it was going to be "The Modern Jazz Quartet at Music Inn" I believe. What? [KO: Yes.] What's the first thing you heard?

KO: We heard the rabbi. He was welcoming everyone. And you hear like music right before, you know, everyone sitting down and the ceremony begins. And my girls and I, we just, we I was cooking dinner that night, and we just stopped. And we just, like, all crowded around the record player and just listened.

NK: So then you have to try to find the owners. You need to find Donna and Phil, who got married in 1966. What did you do to track them down?

KO: I was sharing with some of my friends that, you know, my goodness, this is a wedding album. And so they encouraged me to reach out to Kelsey Thompson, it KXAN.

NK: That's your local station.

KO: Yes. And it's really all thanks to her that this connection was able to happen, because the story goes that several of Lauren, Donna and Phil daughters, her friends saw it and reached out to me on Facebook and reached out to Donna, I think, to get you to connect to Kelsey. And then that's how it all came about, because I wouldn't have found, I wouldn't have found them.

NK: So, Donna, was it a phone call or sorry, it was it an email in your inbox? What did you think when you first learned that this was out there?

DS: Well, it was early Sunday morning, and I looked at my messages and it was a message from my daughter, Lauren, with a picture of the, of our wedding record. It said, is this really yours? [chuckles]

NK: Did you know it was missing?

DS: No, [NK: laughs] we did not know it was missing because we had to let go of our vinyl collection when we downsized. And I guess somewhere along the way, we put it into a cardboard cover of that jazz quartet to keep it safe. So it inadvertently went out with the whole other collection.

NK: And so your son, Danny, is set to have dinner with his family and Katie's this weekend. And they'll be the first to retrieve the wedding vinyl. Are you excited? Are you and your husband excited to hear it again?

DS: Well, we're very excited to hear it again. I remember parts of it very well. The rabbi said this is a marriage made in heaven, which I thought was such a, such a wonderful remark. And then in the Jewish wedding, and I think this is what Katie and the girls enjoyed so much. The groom stomps on the glass. [NK: Yeah]. And then everybody cheers. It's a beautiful moment.

NK: And here you are 59 years in August.

DS: Yes. Isn't that amazing?

NK: It is amazing. How are you feeling about it?

DS: Old. [laughter]

NK: Oh come on. You know. Well, are you going to? I wonder, Katie, if you are going to be getting some advice on how to sustain 59 years.

KO: I would love your advice, Donna.

DS: Boy, I wish I could say something profound, Katie. You take one day at a time, find joy in each day and show respect for each other and enjoy each other. Be each other's best friend and just hang in there together. But where we are now enjoying our adult children and our beautiful grandchildren, we're reaping the benefits and having this record back just rekindles the joy of young love. You know, it's beautiful.

NK: It is beautiful. And I'm a puddle at this point. Very glad to have spoken to both of you. [KO: Same, same] This is just beautiful. I'm so grateful to spoken with you both. Thank you very much.

DS: Oh Nil, thank you so much for bringing us together and for sharing Katie's story of showing the kindness of strangers and the joy that it brings to the world.

KO: Well, I think I'm the lucky one in this situation. Thank you so much for your advice. And I just, I'm so glad that we're friends. And now we met each other in the wildest way that I'm really glad.

DS: And we are really bonded, Katie. We are totally bonded. Yeah.

KO: I cannot wait to see you in person! [DS: I know.] Bye Donna!

DS: Happy Thanksgiving, Katie. And have fun tomorrow too, Katie.

KO: Oh Yes. I'm looking forward to meeting your granddaughter.

DS: I know. And they are so looking forward to meeting you, too. I can't wait to hear all about it.

CH: From Our Archives, that was Katie Ornelas and Donna Schmidt, speaking to Nil in November 2024.

[lounge jazz]

High Seas Treaty

Guest: Rebecca Hubbard

CH: This week, the United Nations Ocean Conference kicked off in the French city of Nice, on the Mediterranean Coast. But the Mediterranean isn't the focus of the conference: efforts are underway to ratify what's known as the High Seas Treaty, which focuses on the waters that lie beyond countries' maritime jurisdictions. It's an area that covers about half of the Earth's surface. Sixty countries are needed to ratify the deal. And they're not there yet. Rebecca Hubbard is the director of the High Seas Alliance. She's at the conference in Nice. We reached her earlier today.

NK: Rebecca, I've been keeping an eye on the online tracker you have. Where are things at now, though? How many more signatures do you need?

REBECCA HUBBARD: So, we currently have over 135 signatures to the High Seas Treaty and 51 country ratifications. And we need 60 country ratifications for it to enter into force. We're definitely optimistic that we'll get to the 60. If we make it this week, we're not sure. Countries can still ratify every day, and there are quite a few that we spoke to who said they would this week and we haven't seen it. But, you know, we know that in the coming few weeks, that we'll definitely see at least we'll get to that 60.

NK: In terms of Canada, a senior assistant deputy minister at Fisheries and Oceans Canada told the Globe and Mail newspaper, quote, as we're nearing the close of our parliamentary session this summer, we'll be aiming to table the treaty at the earliest opportunity when the next session begins, unquote. The U.K. says it plans to head towards ratification by the end of this year. The participation of countries like Canada, like the United Kingdom, how much of a role does that play in the overall mission here? How significant or not is their participation?

RH: Yeah, look, it's definitely very significant. And the reason for that is that countries who become parties to the treaty contribute funds to it functioning. And that is really important that we have a good balance of developed countries and developing countries who engage and ratify the treaty. We definitely urgently want Canada and the U.K. to ratify, same with Australia. And all three of those are good examples of developed countries who have said that they will do it, are working on it, but really need to have parliamentary processes which can be a bit arduous. And so, you know, but we still really need that public support and pressure to ensure those governments prioritize the ratification process.

NK: And what exactly will this treaty accomplish or change if you get the numbers you need and you make it to ratification?

RH: So, what the treaty does is it fills a really big gap in international ocean governance because for the first time it gives the legal framework for creating marine protected areas in the high seas. It also requires environmental impact assessments on damaging activities out in those high seas. And fundamentally, and importantly, also works to redress the access to the high seas, and the benefits that come from that, and countries' involvement in its conservation and management. So it's really, basically, it really revolutionizes and brings international ocean law into the 21st century by prioritizing the conservation of biodiversity and sustainable management of resources. And it really addresses equity in terms of making sure that developed and developing countries have access and responsibility and a part to play.

NK: Some environmentalists, as you likely know, are worried that what won't happen is that there won't be specific protection from bottom trawling. What do you say to those concerns?

RH: Well, the treaty basically sets out the framework to create marine protected areas, but it's true that then the treaty and countries need to work with other countries who operate fisheries in those areas and through other bodies like the regional fisheries management organizations. But I think that we really have an excellent opportunity to stop bottom trawling in these vulnerable ecosystems. And there's already been commitments in the past to that. And I think that what the High Seas Treaty does is it adds an enormous amount of extra political will behind that call for banning bottom trawling in those vulnerable areas. So, it's really kind of raising the ambition and kind of creates a race to the top. So, we think that this is gonna build on a lot of work that other NGOs and other conservation organizations have been doing for a long time in those regional fisheries organizations.

NK: And then there's the issue, of course, of enforcement. How do you see that happening when it is such a vast space we're talking about?

RH: Yeah, it's an enormous space. I think what we're going to see, and again, we're doing things for the first time, so we're really, it's almost like a test run in some ways. Having said that, there is already fisheries monitoring on the high seas. There's a lot of technology with satellites and ship tracking and vessel tracking that's available that we can utilize, and those kinds of technologies are improving and advancing all the time, but it will also require countries cooperating.

NK: It sounds like it's, for you, it's a matter of when, not if, but are there holdouts that you're concerned about? Does that keep you up at night that you are now at this point and you need a few more countries?

RH: Yes, it's a really good question. I mean, it's definitely a matter of when, not if, and we can feel the momentum, you know, like governments moving. So, it's really, and the fact as well, just, you know, even though we need, we're talking about the ratifications because that's what legally ties a party to delivering on the treaty. Once we get to 60, we really want global ratification. And we want more countries around the world engaged in this because that will make it as effective as possible in terms of what we can do in the water.

NK: I'm glad we could speak, Rebecca. Thank you.

RH: Thank you.

CH: Rebecca Hubbard is the director of the High Seas Alliance. She's in Nice, France.

[poppy beat]

Humans Resemble Dogs

CH: If you've been to a park, you've seen them: people who resemble their dogs. Or dogs who resemble their people. It's a kind of chicken-and-egg thing, if eggs looked like chickens. I don't know how it works. But doggelgangers, as they will come to be known now that I've said that, are everywhere. Alternatively: puppelgangers. It turns out the topic is catnip for researchers like Renata Roma -- a research associate at the University of Saskatchewan with the Pawsitive Connections Lab. (Yes, that's P-A-W-sitive.) She says the similarities aren't just about what our dogs look like but what they are like -- personality-wise. Ms. Roma told the CBC what researchers believe is behind the phenomenon.

SOUNDCLIP

RENATA ROMA: This is something that we are trying to further understand from an evolutionary perspective. We have this tendency to seek connection with people who are more similar to us, like who are like-minded, or who have similar traits. And this is something we do in our choice of friends and partners. Even if we are not aware, this is something that plays a role in our choices. So, it seems like we learned how to apply the same mechanisms to our relationships and choice of dogs that we want to interact with. And, of course, the more we live with the dog, we also have mechanisms related to emotional co-regulation. We learn from each other. We reinforce certain behaviours in our dogs based on what we want and like. So, there are factors that are under our control and some of them we are not so aware of.

THERESA KLIEM: So, you touched on emotional regulations. I'm trying to understand this a little better. You know, how does this all, this resemblance, impact our emotional bond and investment with our dogs if it maybe looks a little bit like us or behaves a little like us?

RR: Yeah, and I think this is a very interesting question, because it's more than something that it's just curious. I think that this type of research is helpful first because this helps us to see if similarity helps to build stronger relationships with our pets. And also, it's possible that when we see these levels of similarities, we will be more empathetic and patient when the dog behaves in ways that are not what we expect. So, it might be easier to put ourselves in our dog's shoes and just try to use more gentle strategies to help them. At the same time, the benefits of dog ownership might increase, might be enhanced, because we might have this point of being understood by our dog.

CH: University of Saskatchewan research associate Renata Roma speaking with the CBC's Theresa Kliem on Saskatoon Morning today.

The AIH Transcript For June 11, 2025

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