Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2025

The AIH transcript for June 19, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Family ties. A Canadian man whose partner was visiting family in Iran when the bombs began to fall tells us about his struggle to reach her -- and about why she won't leave until she knows her loved ones will be safe.

CH: The sky is the limit...for foreign-owned airlines. But Canada's competition bureau wants more of them to be allowed to take flight -- to bring down the price of air travel in this country.

NK: Surface tension. Researchers investigate the impact of expensive beauty products on their teen and pre-teen users -- and find that the potential harms are more than just skin deep.

CH: Engulfed. As the flood waters recede in South Africa, the extent of the damage is becoming clear. Our guest says she'll never forget watching her own house disappear in the deluge.

NK: No present like the time. A new study finds that -- when they stick around -- baboons are surprisingly involved fathers. And baboon daughters who maintain strong bonds with their dads appear to live longer.

CH: And...break it to them dentally. Patients in the Czech Republic will be down in the mouth to learn that the young dentist who worked on their teeth over the past few months has been arrested for not being a dentist at all.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday Edition. Radio that guesses it was just a case of enamel magnetism.

[theme]

Part 1: Canadian In Iran, South Africa Flooding, Baboon Father-Daughter Study

Canadian In Iran

Guest: Philip Chisholm

CH: As the war between Israel and Iran continues, a lot of people are trying to leave the region. And today, the Canadian government said that it's stepping up to help. This morning, Anita Anand confirmed that the government is helping organize commercial flights out of neighbouring countries for Canadians fleeing Israel and Iran. The foreign affairs minister is urging Canadians in both countries to head to Turkey, Jordan, and Armenia -- where Canada is boosting its consular services. While entire neighborhoods in Tehran empty out as people look for safety, friends and family members here are only able to watch and worry. Philip Chisholm's common-law partner Maryam has fled Tehran after she went to visit family earlier this month. We reached Mr. Chisholm in Montreal.

NK: Philip, when was the last time you were able to speak to Maryam?

PHILIP CHISHOLM: I spoke to Maryam yesterday morning around 9 o'clock, just before 9.

NK: She called you this morning. You weren't able to get to that call. What did she say in her message?

PC: That's correct. That they have left Tehran and they are now in the mountains in the north in a beautiful place.

NK: Did that, they being, she's with her family, with her parents, yes?

PC: Yes, no, she moved, no, not with her parents, with her brother and his family. They went to the, they're in the northern, northern of Tehran, and the way she worded it was, they're the northern in a beautiful place, in the mountains, in a safe place. That's what she said.

NK: Did that give you some relief at least?

PC: Oh, it definitely did, yes. It gave me quite a bit of relief just knowing that she was out of Tehran.

NK: Our listeners heard, as you have as well, about the Canadian government's plans to try to organize flights from neighbouring countries. And I know just from speaking to friends, they're frantically trying to get visas for family members to go to other countries, or to get to Turkey where they may not need a visa. Is she going to get on one of those flights?

PC: I can't say for certain, but I would think not at this time. She does not want to leave her family, which I understand.

NK: That must be a hard conversation to have?

PC: Yeah, but I understand. I get it.

NK: Have you ever been to Iran with her?

PC: No, I have not. I'd planned on it at some point, but just never did that yet.

NK: Yeah. People go back all the time, whether there are things happening in the region or not, I know. Were you worried when she made this particular trip? When did she go?

PC: She left here on June 9th in the evening, so she arrived there on the 10th. I was somewhat worried, but she didn't seem very worried, so it made it easy for me, basically. So, I was worried, but I wasn't showing anything, you know? It's a worry to go to that part of the world, unfortunately.

NK: And how long was she intending to stay? What was this trip all about?

PC: Uh, for five weeks. She's planning to stay for five weeks, and just basically to go and just visit family because she hasn't been there in, like, seven, eight years. Just, really, just to go because she had some time that she could spend away from work, so why not?

NK: When she went, when our producer did manage to speak with her briefly before the internet lines went down, she, she mentioned that she saw airstrikes from the high rise apartment she was in in Tehran. What did she tell you about what that experience was like for her?

PC: Uh, she basically was saying she was remembering her childhood.

NK: Yeah.

PC: She was remembering childhood. And I've heard, when I was speaking with her, I've also heard the same thing. I've heard them go by, the explosions, as well since Day One.

NK: And when did they decide, as a family, to leave?

PC: I am thinking yesterday at some point, after they lost internet. Because I had no contact until, yeah, until the call this morning.

NK: Were you able to get a message to her? Do you know if she's able to receive what you've sent?

PC: I am not certain. I don't, I cannot confirm or deny. Actually, I did speak with her, well, we got a contact from one of her cousins last night around 8:30 that they were still in, they were safe. So, we think they were sill in Tehran at that point. So, they left after that.

NK: And in her message, did she give you a sense of what that journey to that beautiful place was like?

PC: No, she did not. She basically just said that they were safe in a safe, safe, beautiful place.

NK: It's difficult to hear how much pain you're in, Philip. And also, I mean, there are people right across this country and beyond who are worried about their family and friends and loved ones in Iran, and trying to figure out how to get them to safety. What are your next steps? What do you do when all you have to rely on are those phone calls or those messages?

PC: I'm going back to visit my family in Nova Scotia next week, just to have a better support system.

NK: That's good.

PC: A more close support system I should say.

NK: Yeah. What are they saying about all of this? They know, they know Maryam, of course, I imagine.

PC: Oh, of course. And they're, of course, they're sad, they're worried, they are praying every day.

NK: Has Maryam given you a sense of, she doesn't want to leave them right now, but will it be beyond the five weeks she was initially planning to stay, or do you think she'll be back in a few weeks?

PC: That is a very good question. I honestly don't know. She does not want to leave until she knows her brother and his family are completely safe, which I understand.

NK: I thank you so much for this. As I said, I can tell how difficult this is, but I appreciate it.

PC: I apologize, but yeah.

NK: Oh, please don't apologize. No, don't apologise. Please take care of yourself. Thank you.

PC: Of course.

CH: Philip Chisholm's common-law partner, Maryam is a Canadian citizen who has fled Tehran. We reached Mr. Chisholm at home in Montréal.

[R&B]

South Africa Flooding

Guest: Zukiswa Mbuku

CH: Today, South Africa declared a national disaster. After several days of severe rain and flooding in the Eastern Cape region, more than 90 people are dead. And thousands more have been displaced after their homes were destroyed. One of the worst-hit areas is Mthatha, a town on the banks of the Mthatha River in the Eastern Cape. Zukiswa Mbuku and her husband were at home there when they were forced to flee. We reached Mrs. Mbuku in Norwood, a suburb of Mthatha in South Africa.

NK: Zukiswa, when did you realise you would have to leave your home?

ZUKISWA MBUKU: Uh, it was Tuesday last week, at about 8:30.

NK: You had just had breakfast, and then you realized something was wrong, right?

ZM: I just had breakfast and we realized, and we had people, somebody came and said, people come out, the water from the river is coming towards the houses. And my husband rushed to the back, and when he looked at the back, he saw the water flooding in our garden.

NK: Oh no.

ZM: Then, we went out through the front door. When we looked down the road, the water was coming. It was so heavy. And the houses down next to the river were already half-covered. It was very fast. It was abrupt. He had to take the car out, and we had to rush out without taking anything, because everything happened so fast.

NK: It sounds terrifying, Zukiswa.

ZM: Very much.

NK: Was there any warning? Had there been announcements from officials to prepare for something?

ZM: Nothing. We never expected that. Because during the night, it was raining and there was a wind. And in the morning, it was quiet. The rain had stopped and we never expected anything of that nature.

NK: And where are you and your husband staying now?

ZM: We are staying at Norwood Bed and Breakfast.

NK: How far away? What was the journey like when all of that water is rushing through and taking all of the homes? How did you get out and get to that bed and breakfast?

ZM: What happened is since we saw the water coming from the back and from down the road we rushed out when it entered our yard. It was still low, but when we went out of the gate it quickly went up the walls to the windows, to the window leeve, both sides, from the back and from the front. And we couldn't do anything. It was galloping, but with no sound. It was quiet.

NK: And so, this bed and breakfast is at the top of the hill. It's not, the distance is not too far, but it's a trek to get to, right?

ZM: It's not too far, but we are at the curve of the river. So, all the houses that are at the curve before the river straightens, they were affected.

NK: Have you been able to go back and see where your house is and how it is?

ZM: Yes. We had, we had to go back. And when we opened the front door, when my husband opened the front door, the water rushed like anything. It was forceful from inside the house. The fridge was floating, chairs were floating, couches were floating inside the house.

NK: That's a difficult thing to see your home like that.

ZM: Very difficult. The bedroom! The bedroom headboard with pedestals, the pedestals were broken and thrown far away from the headboard.

NK: So, how are you and your husband doing given what you've been through, what you witnessed?

ZM: We are 70-something years old; it's quite traumatic.

NK: I'm sorry.

ZM: Very painful. How do you gather and restore what you collected all these years? What do you do?

NK: How is the community coming together and helping each other?

ZM: Oh, they are helping, and our church people are also helping us, so we are assisting one another.

NK: We know that the president visited Mthatha last Friday. Do you feel that you have enough support from the government to eventually rebuild?

ZM: Yeah. You know, when the water came in, my husband took the car and rushed to OR term with disaster management officers to tell them that we're going to experience a problem. The river is coming to our houses. They went there and they said they are already attending to that. They have come down to here. They did go to other areas, but they never came to us.

NK: Why not?

ZM: I don't know?

NK: Do you have any more answers today?

ZM: No, but they formed there after, I remember. I think a day or two days thereafter. And the counsellor formed and asked my husband to go to a community hall in Northcrest so that they can list us with people who are affected. And they promised that they would do something because of our age. And we thought they would provide us with accommodation. But they didn't. It's our kids and our friends and relatives that secured this accommodation for us.

NK: Our producer spoke with your daughter and your son. I understand he is coming to visit you tomorrow. Is that right?

ZM: Yes, yes.

NK: How long do you think you'll have to stay at that bed and breakfast?

ZM: We really don't know. Because what is happening is the grounds are muddy and wet inside the house. The floors are not dry yet. The walls are not dry yet. I am asthmatic. So, it's not easy for us to go back there if we don't guarantee that the house is dry, dry, dry.

NK: Of course, yeah.

ZM: But we'll see.

NK: Zukiswa, I'm glad you're safe and that you're with your husband. And that your son will be there tomorrow. Please take care. Thank you very much for speaking with me.

ZM: Thank you, dear.

CH: We reached Zukiswa Mbuku in Norwood, Mthatha, South Africa.

[electronic]

Baboon Father-Daughter Study

Guest: Beth Archie

CH: It's not uncommon to find absentee fathers in the mammal world. Especially among baboons. Male baboons tend to mate and move on, leaving the parenting to the mothers. But a new study from the University of Notre Dame and Duke University, in the U.S. suggests that when baboon fathers do stick around, it can make a big difference -- especially to their daughters. Beth Archie is a behavioral ecologist at the University of Notre Dame and the senior author of the study. We reached her in South Bend, Indiana.

NK: Beth, it's not often that baboon and good dad find themselves in the same sentence, but your study does suggest a connection. What did your research reveal about these father-daughter relationships in baboons?

BETH ARCHIE: Yeah, that's a good question, and I think we maybe have been under-appreciating those male baboons. [NK chuckles] But we found that young female baboons, so those in just the first few years of their life when they're juveniles, if they have stronger relationships with their dad, or are lucky enough even to just live in the same group with their dad for as long as they can, once they reach adulthood, those females live longer.

NK: And you looked at more than 200 female baboons for your work. What kinds of behaviours were you tracking?

BA: Sure, we looked at, first, just how long do males and females, daughters and fathers, live together? And we do that by going out every day and writing down which animals are in the group, and we can use that to see how long they live together. And then, we also looked at grooming relationships between fathers and daughters.

NK: And what does that look like in baboons?

BA: Sure. So, I mean, what it looks like if you're there watching baboons is it's just one animal gently combing through the fur of another animal.

NK: Awe!

BA: A good friend of mine sort of compares it to, [NK chuckles] I know, to sitting down and having, like, a good chat with a friend. So, baboons basically use grooming to solidify friendships. Animals who groom more have stronger and more stable friendships.

NK: And what does "Dad Mode" look like in baboons?

BA: Yeah, so dad mode looks a little like, you know, middle-aged males tend to be the most likely dads in our population. Those males, we know, if their kids get into a fight with other members of the group, those dads will step in and help their daughters. We also suspect that those dads are sort of creating maybe a safe space, or a safe zone, for their daughters to feed and socialize. Other animals may find the dad a little bit intimidating. So, if that daughter sticks near her dad we suspect that she's just able to feed interrupted...uninterrupted.

NK: And why do you think some fathers, some of these fathers, are more involved than others in their daughter's life?

BA: Yeah, it's a good question. I think it partly depends on how sure he is that he is the dad.

NK: Okay. [chuckling]

BA: So, we know that moms mate with multiple males. And so, he's not always maybe very sure he's the dad. So, and we actually have some evidence that that's the case. And in addition, we think it also has to do with age. So, when male baboons are young and in their physical prime, they're really focused on climbing the dominance hierarchy, fighting with other males, mating with females, but they can't sustain that effort for very long. And so, once they reach middle age, their condition is declining a little bit, and so we think they switch into acting more like dads.

NK: There is this prevailing sense that male primates are not the greatest or the most involved fathers. Did, you know, once you kept that in your mind, did any other behaviours by these baboon fathers surprise you?

BA: That's a good question. I mean I think what really, I guess one thing I will say is the one exception to primates not being a good dad is human, of course. So, humans are this real exception where human fathers are almost always really heavily involved. And, of course, contribute hugely to raising their kids. In baboons, I think the thing that really surprised us was, you know, these cares, these behaviours that seem to be subtle, you know, grooming and helping their kid out in a fight, really were translating to, you know, increasing the female's lifespan by two to three years. So, a female baboon, once she reaches adulthood, can expect to live about 18 years. So, getting an extra two to three years is really a pretty big boost for her.

NK: Certainly. Why did you want to study these relationships in particular?

BA: We have really wondered about the importance of dads. You know, in baboons, the mother's role is so obvious because mothers gestate and they lactate and they carry the infant. But we've known that dads can recognise their kids, you know, actually really for more than a decade now, but we wondered how important are those relationships really? And so, that was why we set out to look at those effects on lifespan.

NK: Did this research change the way you look at father-daughter relationships beyond baboons?

BA: Yeah, I mean, I think it, you know, we have this idea that humans are really unique in the role that fathers play in raising their kids, at least unique among primates. And I think maybe what changed for me is suggesting that, oh, maybe we should look a little bit more carefully at the role of fathers in some of these other primates where we've maybe been underappreciating them.

NK: And what are you going to look at next?

BA: Um, you know, one thing we would love to do is really, like, so all we really measured was grooming relationships and how long they live together. And you're sort of your questions have been sort of getting at, like, what's really going on in these relationships. And we would like to do more careful, fine-grained work, really looking at fathers and daughters in those early years, and trying to understand how is it that dads are really having these big impacts on their daughters.

NK: What's it like sitting there and observing these creatures play out these important relationships?

BA: Oh, it's so great. It's, the animals, so the study has been going on for more than 50 years. So, the animals are very used to us. That takes a lot of work. When I say us, they're used to our team of Kenyan researchers. So, when we're out there, we're following them on foot. You know, you we go out, we catch them before dawn, when they're just about to descend from their sleeping trees. And yeah, and follow them throughout the day. And they lead us through the habitat. It's really cool.

NK: I'm glad we could speak, Beth. Thank you for this.

BA: Yeah, thank you for your interest.

CH: Beth Archie is a behavioral ecologist at the University of Notre Dame. We reached her in South Bend, Indiana.

[cop music?]

Czech Dentist

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: Hey guys, if you wanna learn how to knit, then you've come to the right place.

TIM GIBSON: Hi, I'm Tim Gibson, and I'm going to talk to you about diagnosing your dishwasher.

WOMAN #2: What we're going to do today is show you how you can fix it all by yourself in about 10 minutes with a $13 part.

MAN: When starting out as a Santa Claus representative, it's important to keep improving upon your skills and appearance.

MAN #2: In this video, I'm going to show you everything you need to make your first tutorial video right away.

CH: How to knit. How to be Santa. How to make a how-to video. Is there anything the internet can't teach us? Funny I should ask, because yes there is: dentistry. Now, look, I know, I hear a lot of you protesting that YouTube showed you how to pull a tooth, or how to glue on your veneers, or how to replace your molars with the souvenir pebbles you got on your trip to Bermuda. And, look, of course, we all have our own amazing success stories about doing our own dental work. But it's still true that pretending to actually be a dentist, to other people, is against the law. Here, and in the Czech Republic. Czech police have just arrested a 22-year-old man, and his two assistants, who were running a dental practice out of their home in the town of Havlíčkův Brod. Excuse me. Services offered included: cleanings; fillings; extractions; and complicated root canals requiring anesthesia. And he did all this stuff by -- as the BBC puts it -- "drawing on information he had obtained online". I assume that means he looked at YouTube. And if you've experienced a root canal performed by a professional, then I strongly suggest that you not imagine what it would have been like if some guy had done that root canal in his living room, while hitting pause on a video every three seconds and complaining about the wifi. The three suspects have all pleaded guilty to multiple charges, including operating an illegal business, after treating dozens of patients and making the equivalent of $250,000 Cdn. So, at least they admit their mistake. And maybe things just got out of hand. Maybe this whole thing was acci-dental.

[western]

Part 2: Foreign Airline Ownership, Sephora Kids

Foreign Airline Ownership

Guest: Anthony Durocher

CH: Ask any Canadian about the last time they flew somewhere in this country and the odds that you'll hear a rave review are pretty slim. You'll more likely hear complaints about ticket prices, or service, or delays, or cancelled flights, or how hard it was to get a flight at all. Domestic air travel in this country is dominated by two big Canadian carriers -- WestJet and Air Canada. Smaller airlines often struggle or go under. And people who live outside big cities can face limited service. Well, a report out today from the Competition Bureau of Canada is calling for change -- in the form of more competition. And one way the Bureau wants to see that happen is through more foreign ownership. Anthony Durocher is a deputy commissioner with the bureau. We reached him in Gatineau, Quebec.

NK: Deputy Commissioner, you certainly heard from the public as you were putting this report together. Did you get an earful?

ANTHONY DUROCHER: Well, we certainly had a lot of interest and engagement from Canadians. We had over 1,500 people write in to us with their experiences, their ideas about competition in the airline sector.

NK: What was the biggest frustration that people were sharing with you?

AD: You know, a lot of frustrations about options, about price, the level of service was another issue. Certain Canadians expressed the view that it can be cheaper to fly to Europe than it is to fly within Canada.

NK: I think that it may surpass weather in terms of the kinds of things that Canadians love to talk about and hate to experience. Do you get that sense doing the work that you do?

AD: Well, it's often a desire for more competition from people in this sector. And, you know, when we look at the benefits of competition in the airline sector it's not just in price, but it's better service, better conditions, more innovation in the sector. And a lot of our recommendations in this market study are really geared towards tangible steps that governments can do to improve competition in this sector.

NK: And specifically, you found that the two largest carriers in this country, WestJet and Air Canada, not only have the biggest share of passengers, but that there's actually less competition between those two airlines than there was even just a few years ago.

AD: That's right. Well, what we've seen by looking at the data is that Air Canada, a little bit less present in the West. And WestJet, a little less present in the East. So, we see less head-to-head competition. But one of the key findings of our report was just the nature of the industry and the level of concentration. So, if we look at Canada's eight busiest airports combined, WestJet and Air Canada would have somewhere between 56 and 78 per cent of the passengers serviced in these eight busiest airports. So, by any stretch, that is a concentrated market. And a large part of our 10 recommendations are geared towards making the conditions more ripe for new entry, new competitors to participate in the market, recognizing that that leads to significant benefits for consumers.

NK: Increasing foreign ownership in domestic airlines is one of the key recommendations you've put forward here. Why are you and your colleagues convinced that that will be a game-changer here?

AD: So, that is something that we've heard very consistently in our market interviews and the information we collected from stakeholders in the industry, including new airlines, as the importance of access to foreign capital and foreign expertise. So, we know that new and smaller airlines need to expand. They need to invest in fleets. And opening up the Canadian marketplace to more foreign capital is a critical input to enable them to expand, and enable them to provide more vigorous and sustainable competition across the country. So, that's why one of the three pillars of our recommendations is really to leverage foreign capital and foreign expertise to drive domestic competition within Canada.

NK: But would increasing foreign ownership, I mean, would those foreign investors care about making sure that these airlines service people in the more remote areas of Canada, where your report does note air travel is a necessity, not a luxury? How do you ensure that that expansion actually helps expand to where it's needed most?

AD: Yeah, that's a really good point. In the north, not just the north but more rural areas in Canada, we know that airline travel is significantly important. Even if you don't travel yourself, that's how you access health care, food, for some people, their work as well. So, it's critically important. We put forth three recommendations that are really specific to driving that issue about connectivity in the north. You know, it recognises the unique circumstances in Canada's north, and the reality is the economics are such that we might not see three or four competitors on a given route in a remote area. What we want to do is make the conditions right for companies to succeed, and make these markets more contestable by bringing down barriers for other participants to be able to enter in the north.

NK: Your office has pushed for more competition through that very thing, through foreign ownership, in the past. There hasn't seemed to be a lot of appetite in Ottawa for relaxing those rules. But I wonder, especially now, when we're talking about national identity and buying Canadian, are you worried that it's going to be even more difficult? Do you think the federal government is actually going to adopt these recommendations?

AD: Well, I think we're very confident in our findings and recommendations. And I would say that what we've seen, particularly in the last few years, is much more interest in competition from policymakers, from parliamentarians, largely because that's what Canadians are asking for. Perhaps as a result of, you know, high inflation period, people are more focused on affordability issues. And are really connecting the dots between competition and affordability. And policy makers are asking us how can we bring more competition? In sectors across Canada, we've seen that in the grocery industry. And now, we're turning to airlines. And we think there really is an appetite to increase competition for Canadians because that's what they're asking for.

NK: There's also a lot of frustration and cynicism that anything will ever change because Canadians have seen time and time again that they don't have the same rights and access that folks in other countries do. So, if they don't adopt this, if things don't change, what should consumers do with that?

AD: Well, I think if consumers keep asking for more competition, certainly the Competition Bureau is going to fight for them. And so, our 10 recommendations really try and get at specific steps that we can take to make sure that the market is as competitive as it can.

NK: Deputy Commissioner, thank you for this.

AD: It's my pleasure. Thank you.

CH: Anthony Durocher is a deputy commissioner with the Competition Bureau of Canada. He’s in Gatineau, Quebec.

[chillhop house tour music]

Ford Apology

CH: Doug Ford says he was just being a bit too passionate yesterday, when he said he treats First Nations "like gold", but they -- quote -- "can't just keep coming hat in hand all the time to the government." Unquote. The Ontario Premier made those comments ahead of a planned meeting with chiefs to talk about the bill that would speed up the construction of mines in the province's mineral-rich Ring of Fire region. That bill has been met with resistance -- which has frustrated the premier. The NDP MP who represents that riding -- Sole Mamakwa -- described the comments as deeply offensive and racist. Today, Premier Ford apologized to the chiefs who'd made their way to Toronto for the meeting.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: I sincerely apologize if I've offended anyone. I thought we had a phenomenal meeting, and there's a lot of work to do. We're going to continue to meet. I've been invited up to a lot First Nations communities because Minister Rickford always promises me he's going to bring me fishing but he never does. But a lot chiefs have said come by. And I've also always said any time I go to First Nations communities, they treat me like gold. And that, I'll be forever grateful. But we're going to work together, we're going to get through this, and we're going to have a great collaboration. And as I said before, I'll always respect treaty rights, and I'll always respect duty to consult. Because without First Nations, we can't get the critical minerals out of the ground. We can't have the energy that we need, that the whole world wants. So again, megwich. Appreciate everything. Megwich.

REPORTER: Do you accept the premier's apology, and how did the meeting go?

LINDA DEBASSIGE: Well, my name is Grand Council Chief Linda Debassige, and I understand the media is here to, you know, potentially highlight some of the discussion points, but also to continue to breathe life into perhaps what people call racist comments that were expressed yesterday. As First Nations people, we continue to uphold our treaty agreement with the Crown. Our nations today have met with the premier at his invitation at our request to meet. So, I can confirm that before the meeting started that the premier has indeed, and did indeed, apologize to our First Nations rights holders sitting at that table today. While there are many other rights holders in this province, our chiefs felt today that the apology was sincere. He has fulfilled his responsibility in his apology to our chiefs that were sitting here in the presence of the premier today. And I know the premier knows that there is more to do in this regard. And I believe his words.

CH: Grand Council Chief Linda Debassige, and before her, Ontario Premier Doug Ford, speaking in Toronto earlier today.

[hip-hop]

Sephora Kids

Guest: Molly Hales

CH: If you spend much time on the internet, you've probably come across "get ready with me" videos -- in which influencers show off their morning routines for the camera, and their followers. But lately, the content creators behind those kinds of videos are getting younger and younger. And they're very focused on skin care.

SOUNDCLIP

GIRL: Hey y'all, get ready with me for school.

GIRL #2: Tweed root tea.

GIRL #3: So first, I got the milk makeup cooling water serum.

WOMAN: And why'd you buy that?

GIRL #3: My eyes are really puffy in the morning.

GIRL #4: And then, I'm using this eye booster. This is so rad.

GIRL #5: But that's it, bye guys, I love you.

CH: It's a concerning trend for some parents, as more and more children and teenagers increase their use of skin care products. And now, a team of researchers at Northwestern University has found those routines could actually cause more harm than good. Molly Hales is a dermatologist and a postdoctoral research fellow at Northwestern. We reached her in Chicago.

NK: Doctor, [chuckling] to hear young people, very, very young, talk about their eyes being puffy in the morning and that sort of thing, obviously you want people to take care of their skin, but to hear that, teens and tweens talk like that, how does that sit with you?

MOLLY HALES: It's certainly very disturbing. And we found that in some of the videos as well, kids who are, you know, 12, 13 years old, who are trying to rid themselves of under eye circles, or under eye bags, or things that really, really, you should not be having to worry about at that age.

NK: You looked at TikTok videos for your study. You created your own profile, setting the user's age to 13, and then seeing what turned up in that imaginary 13-year-old's feed. What kind of videos did you see?

MH: I mean, the videos in the beginning were all over the place, but it didn't take us long to scroll through those videos and come across the first ones that were introducing skincare routines. And from there, we were selectively liking and saving posts from creators that were teens and younger than teens. And then, that way we kind of skewed the algorithm towards showing us more of those videos so that we could get a pretty robust sample size and take a look at what the were actually showing.

NK: And when you say younger than teens, how young are we talking?

MH: I mean, there were definitely girls in elementary school. We were not always able to determine the age based on the videos. But there were definitely videos that said, you know, my eight-year-old's skincare routine, or where when we looked at, you know, the creator's profile, we could see, you know, for example, birthday videos for, oh, this is my 10th birthday.

NK: So their parents are doing this too, right?

MH: The youngest users, it was generally kind of a mommy-and-me, we called it like a mommy-and-me genre, where girls in that kind of, like, eight, nine age range were putting skincare on with their moms, alongside their moms, and usually on their mom's profiles. But then, it didn't take long for the videos to be showing those girls, you know, having their own pages and posting their own skincare routines, often longer and more elaborate than the ones that their moms were ostensibly using. So, I mean there were lots of 10, 11, and 12 year olds who were, you now, posting a lot of content around their skin care already.

NK: And what kinds of products were most popular.

MH: Sometimes cleansers, but mostly a lot of, like, mists and serums, moisturisers. When we analyzed the routines, well, for one thing, they're very complicated. They are time-intensive. They're quite costly. The average skincare routine by these teens and preteens used six different products at once. The total cost of the product on average was around $170. So, we have this whole set of risks to the skin that we identified based on our analysis of the products and the ingredients in the product. But then, you also have these kind of more nebulous risks associated with being exposed to content that suggests that maybe you should be waking up super early in the morning and spending hundreds of dollars and a lot of time and energy trying to improve the skin's health and appearance.

NK: When it's still developing, I would imagine at that age, right?

MH: For sure. Yeah. And, um, you know, it's also interesting that a lot of the products that the girls were using are really developed and marketed as anti-ageing products. In other cases, it seems like it's questionable what benefit the girls are even seeking to get from these kinds of skin care products, especially because they're costly and often quite irritating. So, that was one of the main risks that we identified is just that many of the products that they're using have active ingredients in them like hydroxy acids that are chemical exfoliants, for example, that can maybe make the skin a little bit more youthful-appearing, but that are also irritating, especially when they're used in combination, or layered one over the other, which were both common practices to see in these skincare routines.

NK: So, irritation would be your biggest concern as a dermatologist for someone that young, or are there other scenarios that you're concerned about?

MH: So, irritation is probably the most common. The other ones that we identified were sun sensitivity and skin allergy, which we call allergic contact dermatitis. So those alpha-hydroxy acids I mentioned, they are known to increase sun sensitivity. And that means both that they can make you more susceptible to getting a sunburn, but also they can make the skin more susceptible to UV-induced cellular damage, meaning, like, the actual cells themselves, the DNA, are being damaged by the sun. And that can be a marker of skin cancer risk, actually.

NK: Ultimately, Doctor, what advice would you give to, to young people who are listening and their parents? Maybe they're asking to buy these products. Maybe they are already using them. What advice would give them as they're listening right now?

MH: There are certainly ways to have a skin care routine that isn't posing as many risks to young skin. And so, if you have a teen that's really into doing this, I would say try to make sure that they're not putting on more than one active ingredient at a time. So, look at the labels, read what's in it, make sure they're putting sunscreen on, especially because so many of these products are sun sensitizers, but also because that's the best way to prevent the ageing of the skin, to prevent the risk of skin cancer, and it's a great way to build on this phenomenon of teens wanting to put stuff on their skin. I think one of the things that was most disturbing to me watching these videos as a mom, as well as a dermatologist, was just the way that the kind of pursuit of beauty got intertwined with this language of health, so it makes it seem like these girls are promoting and protecting the health of their skin. And I certainly don't want girls to get the message that that's how you are healthy, or that that is what you need to do to be healthy. Certainly, these routines, if anything, are taking away from the health of the skin, so you should never feel like it's something that you need to be doing.

NK: I'm glad we could speak, Doctor. Thank you for this.

MH: Thank you.

CH: Molly Hales is a dermatologist and a postdoctoral research fellow at Northwestern University. We reached her in Chicago.

[ambient]

Juventus Visit

CH: An invitation to the White House was once an incomparable honour. A thrilling gesture of respect. Something to tell the grandkids about. And for some people, it still is. But Timothy Weah says it's just weird. Mr. Weah plays for the U.S. Men's National Soccer Team, and the Italian club Juventus. He and several fellow members of that squad were invited to visit the Oval Office ahead of their match in D.C. And when they arrived, there were the typical handshakes and photo-ops -- but for the majority of the 20-minute visit, U.S. President Donald Trump took questions from reporters from the Resolute desk as the Juventus squad stood behind him, confused. The president wasn't even answering questions about soccer -- but instead, questions about the state of the Middle East, and transgender women in sports. Here's what that sounded like.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: Mr President, on Iran, if regime change does happen, if the regime falls, do you have a plan for what you think would happen?

DONALD TRUMP: I have a plan for everything, but we'll see what happens. Got a ways to go. They should have, look, they should have made the deal. I had a great deal for them. They should've made that deal. Sixty days we talked about it, and in the end, they decided not to do it. And now, they wish they did it.

REPORTER #2: The Senate Judiciary Committee is holding a hearing on who exactly was running the White House under Joe Biden. Who do you think that was?

DT: I think the auto pen ran the White House. You know, we have an auto pen president before me. I think it's one of the greatest scandals in the history of this country, one of biggest scandals. He wasn't making a decision. He was never for open borders, where people came in from all over the world, from prisons and gangs and drug dealers and all of that, mentally, the mentally insane. He was not for that. He was never for open boarders, and he was never, if you think, he was for transgender for everybody, or men playing in women's sports. You know, have you ever had women, could a woman make your team, fellas? Tell me, you think? You're being nice. What do you think, think a woman could make the team? General managers, what do you think? We do say it.

TIMOTHY WEAH: We have a very good women's team, though.

DT: But they should be playing with women, right? You know, it's one of those things, one of the things. See, they're very diplomatic.

CH: And so on. Afterwards, Timothy Weah said, quote, "It was all a surprise to me, honestly — they told us that we have to go and I had no choice but to go. It was a bit weird. When he started talking about the politics with Iran and everything, it’s kind of like, 'I just want to play football man.'” Unquote.

[ambient]

Part 3: Israel Hospital Strike, Royal Viking Site

Israel Hospital Strike

Guest: A. Mark Clarfield

CH: Day after day, the missiles keep coming. Iran has fired hundreds of ballistic missiles toward Israel since Israel launched its attacks on Iranian nuclear sites a week ago. Iran has reported 224 deaths from the Israeli strikes, including civilians. Israel has reported at least 24 dead. Most of the Iranian missiles have been intercepted. But early this morning, one got through -- and hit one of Israel's main hospitals, the Soroka Medical Centre. Luckily, yesterday, patients were moved from the top floors to protected areas of the hospital. Dozens were injured but no one was killed. A. Mark Clarfield is a Canadian-born doctor who works at the hospital. We reached him in Jerusalem.

NK: Doctor, what have your colleagues been telling you about what it was like inside the hospital when the missile hit?

A. MARK CLARFIELD: Yeah, well, that's terrifying for the patients and my colleagues because it's a huge, you hear a huge explosion, you feel a huge explosion, and depending on how far away you are from it, you can be very badly injured by it. Fortunately, it was far away enough from an evacuated ward that people weren't killed. They just felt it, and heard it.

NK: There were emergency plans put in place last week, if I'm not mistaken. What kind of plans and strategy goes into that?

AMC: Well, the instruction came in a couple of days ago that they should evacuate the particular ward that was hit because it's in an old building, and was thought to be particularly sensitive to any kind of missile. Other wards in the hospital are newer and they're built to a newer standard and they to a kind of ability to withstand a certain amount of explosives.

NK: You've spent a lot of time working in this hospital. When did you find out what had happened?

AMC: We were woken up about 7 in the morning by an air raid siren for the whole country, or not the whole county, but large swaths of the country, including Jerusalem, where I live. We have a bomb shelter at home. So, we went into the bomb shelter and we opened up our phones, and what happens is people sort of talk with each other, how are you, are you okay, waiting for the missiles to fall, because we were given a couple of minutes warning, since these things are coming from 1,000, 1,500 miles away. So we know they're coming, we have a few minutes. And then, we opened up our phones and somebody sent me a picture of a mushroom cloud above the hospital without any, without any caption. I said, that's really odd. And then I went then, you know, I went into the various online things and it turned out that we learned that the hospital had been bombed.

NK: What was it like for you to see a place that you've spent so much time in and clearly care about in that state?

AMC: I could see places that I'd seen two, three days ago, looking perfectly normal, smashed to bits, the cafeteria entrance, for example, the entrance to the emergency room, the ward itself that was hit, and all the glass and acoustic tiles from the ceiling that have fallen into the foyer.

NK: Will you go back next week?

AMC: Yeah, no, no. Of course, I'll go back. I'll go back, I was planning to go back on Monday or Tuesday, and I'll go back, yeah.

NK: You say, of course, but many people listening might not feel, of course. That they might think, of course, he should stay away; it's not safe.

AMC: Of course, I meant that I'm a doctor and I go to the place where I am called to work. And that's a holy mission, and I think all doctors will recognise that and all patients will hope that their doctors will have that attitude. And from my experience in Canada, most doctors would do the same thing. In so much as one can get used to this, we're used to it, and we soldier on and we do what we have to do. It's funny that I say of course. I just finished, oddly enough, I just finished reading a book on the Blitz in London. And I was always curious how these people got up in the morning after spending the night in The Tube, you know, in the subway, in the metro, through the bombs, and get up in morning, dust themselves off, and go to work. And I was intrigued by that. And it turns out that we do it, too. And I do it, too. And my wife does it, and my children do it. And we all do it because there's really no choice.

NK: Iran's Revolutionary Guard, as you may have read, has said it was not trying to hit the hospital, and said that it was attempting to hit an Israeli military intelligence compound about three kilometres from the hospital.

AMC: [chuckling] Yeah. So, first of all, you can believe that as far as you can throw it. I have no knowledge that says that they were trying to hit this hospital. I can't claim that I can prove that. However, their missiles are pretty accurate, unfortunately. They know what they're doing. And this, quote, military complex, which I don't even know which one they're talking about --

NK: the Gav-Yam technology park.

AMC: That's in the university. That's a technology park like you'd have at U of T, or McGill, or something like that, and the accusation by the Iranians is that these technology companies work with the Israeli military, and so they're military targets. Well, they're not military targets, they're companies. Deutsche Telekom is there, and IBM is there. You know, it's sort of like shooting at IBM in Canada saying that IBM works with the Canadian Armed Forces. I mean, it's, you know, you're, there's lots of army bases outside of cities if they want to aim at them. And they haven't been very successful at doing that. They've managed to hit downtown Tel Aviv and other places in Be'er Sheva, you know, that, where, where the army is not located. The army is located in many places in the country, but not there.

NK: In terms of what we're hearing from the United States, a lot of mixed messaging, no clear answers. How are you feeling at this moment about the possibility about a wider war and U.S. Involvement, given the toll it's already taken on Iranian people and Israelis?

AMC: Well, I think everyone agrees who understands the situation that the Iranians should not have a nuclear bomb. And if Mr. Trump will succeed via a negotiation, obviously, any sane person, I think, wants this to end peacefully. And I hope that Mr.Trump's threat will make them stand down and agree, as they had earlier, years ago, to not not have a nuclear bomb.

NK: And just finally, Doctor, for you personally, in terms of personal safety, is there a point where you would consider that it's not safe to stay and that you would come back to Canada?

AMC: No, no. First of all, my life is here. I love Canada very much. I grew up there. I'm eternally grateful to the education and upbringing I had. But I have lots of Canadian colleagues and friends, and we do projects and work together. So, it's a great country. But I made a decision a long time ago to move here, and I stick by that. I've got three kids, three grandchildren, a wife, a job, and, no, I wouldn't come back. But I've made a choice as a Jew to live here, and I'll stick by that choice.

NK: Doctor, I'm glad we could speak. I appreciate your time. Please take care.

AMC: Thank you, Nil. Thank you very much, and my best to all the listeners. Let's hope for peace.

NK: Let's hope for peace. Thank you.

CH: A. Mark Clarfield is a Canadian-born doctor who works at the Soroka Medical Centre. We reached him in Jerusalem.

[grunge]

Amazon Promo

CH: The original subtitle for Dom Phillips' book How to Save The Amazon was Ask The People Who Know. And that's what Mr. Phillips did, to his credit. And ultimately -- at his peril. The British journalist was killed almost exactly three years ago while reporting on illegal deforestation, and its impact on Indigenous peoples in Brazil's remote Javari valley. This month, a group of his friends and colleagues published the book he was writing at the time, with the new subtitle, A Journalist's Deadly Quest for Answers. Tomorrow, we'll have Nil's feature conversation with two of the people involved: Dom's widow, Alessandra Sampaio -- and one of his frequent collaborators, investigative journalist Andrew Fishman. Their interview speaks to the urgency of protecting the world's largest tropical rainforest; the sophistication of existing, local-level approaches; and the potential of unapologetically empathetic journalism.

SOUNDCLIP

ALESSANDRA SAMPAIO: Dom had this humble posture to listen everyone, to hear people with no judgement. Even if they are doing illegal activities, he want to understand the context. And in this place, he talked with everyone that he could to understand what the challenges that Amazon is facing now. It's really complex to understand. Amazon is not just a block of forest; it's a home of 29 million people. And you have a lot of social issues, you have a few job opportunities. So, Dom want to understand this and propose solutions, real solutions, to do this.

ANDREW FISHMAN: You know, one of the things that stuck out about Dom, and we had a lot of conversations about, you know, just the philosophy of journalism and how it's changing and what needs to happen. You know, there's a lot of journalism that presents itself as not having any point of view, being absolutely neutral and impartial. And we know that human beings are not that. They never are. And my personal opinion is that when, oftentimes when journalists say that, what they're actually doing is they're reflecting the status quo opinion of society. And we are coming from societies that, as you know, have a very long history of exploiting and abusing and, you know, creating terrible tragedies in Indigenous communities and with, amongst nature. So, Dom did not say that he had, he didn't have a point of view. He very much did. You know, he wanted to save the Amazon, protect the Amazon, to defend the people that were there. But those people Included the ones who were doing the illegal mining or deforestation because they, he saw that they had no other options. They were making rational choices. They, it's not that they wanted to destroy. It's that the way that the society was structured, the way the economy is structured, where they lived, the best option they had was to do things that they knew were detrimental to their society. And they, many of them lamented that fact. And so, he wanted to go out in the field, and this is why he went back to the Javari, because he wanted get those little moments that make people understand the intense love and care that he had for these people, and that they had for each other. And that was the way that he was doing the work. And I think that that's the way that journalism should be. And that the best journalism is done.

CH: An excerpt from Nil's feature conversation with Alessandra Sampaio and Andrew Fishman about the new book, How to Save The Amazon: A Journalist's Deadly Quest for Answers -- and about the life and legacy of the late Dom Phillips. You can hear the full interview on tomorrow night’s show…or look for a special edition of our podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

[lounge jazz]

Royal Viking Site

Guest: Mads Ravn

CH: It was supposed to be a new soccer pitch. But history had already arranged for a different fate for a nondescript-looking Danish field. And now, archaeologists there are racing to catalogue an impressive trove of 10th-century treasures -- which they say holds new insights about the reign of Viking-era King, Harald Bluetooth. Who is the ancient monarch for whom the short-range wireless technology was named. Mads Ravn is lead archaeologist at the nearby Moesgaard Museum in Aarhus, Denmark. And that's where we reached him.

NK: Mads, did you or anyone else involved have any inkling, any clue of the kinds of treasures that were there?

MADS RAVN: No. Actually, not at all. We were basically doing routine archaeology there, sort of standard routine excavation, and we thought it was some traditional pits that we do have from the Iron Age in numbers here. And then suddenly, we found out it was graves.

NK: The Iron Age precedes, by quite a bit, the Viking Age, of course, so what makes Viking era finds so special?

MR: Personally, I think the Viking Age and the pre-Viking Age is almost more important because it's very international. It's a kind of a globalization in the, it's a strong word, but it is kind of a way when, due to the boats' technology, they came pretty far away, actually, even to Canada, as you probably know.

NK: Yes.

MR: And in Denmark, Viking Age is particularly sort of cherished because it has been traditionally used in a way of, in bad times, where we're losing a lot of territory in the 19th century. So, in some ways, it is a bit of a nationalistic sort of history we have. But still, we can see that the Viking Age is quite special. And it's actually only in the Viking Age that we start getting, you know, money economy and writing and christianity, which is why we put what we call the Middle Ages a bit later than they do in Central Europe.

NK: Once you decided that this was not going to be routine in any way, did you and the team have to change your strategy as you continued to dig?

MR: Yes, yes we did. We were going pretty roughly to the pits. And sometimes, we do them by shovelling or by machine, and just kind of just cutting them in half to get an idea of the depths. But if you dig a grave, you have to approach it differently because it's kind of emptying a bathtub in some way. So, you have start scraping off from both sides and then you can pick out finds on the way down.

NK: How many artefacts have you uncovered at this point there?

MR: We have about 100, broadly speaking, and that includes everything from swords to brooches and rivets and nails and iron knives and stuff, so it's quite varied, too. And coins, of course.

NK: Is there one that stands out for you, that you like the most?

MR: Yeah, I mean, the coins are quite important because they can date it, they actually have a writing on when they were printed. So, we know some of the coins, which sort of are dated to the middle or late 10th century, which is exactly when King Harald Bluetooth was gaining power and, you know, remodelling the whole kingdom to his liking. And then, we also have found a casket, which is very rare, it's kind of a small box, square box, 25 by 25 centimetres, and we have a preserved version of it in Germany, which we know is made by Harald Bluetooth and given to the emperor down there at that time. So, we think it's from the same workshop maybe.

NK: What does that suggest to you and everything else you've found so far about who they might have belonged to?

MR: Well, it suggests that we're dealing with the highest echelon of society. It's probably the steward or the earls of the king. And the king was an itinerary king who was riding with his whole court around the country in order to keep it together because it was always sort of falling apart in some end of the kingdom. And so, he was always on the move. And therefore, he had to have these. nodes where he could stop over and claim his power. And this point here was very important, and also became very important for Aarhus, the city.

NK: I want to ask you more about King Bluetooth as well. Our listeners heard a little bit about where the Bluetooth technology name came from, being named after King Bluetooth. How did that happen?

MR: Yeah, it's a bit of a strange thing that we found out quite late. But personally, it's a kind of a computer nerd who was sitting and doing programming for the Bluetooth technology. And he found it very genius that combining two different devices, which normally cannot be combined was, he thought, the same way as King Harald Bluetooth claimed that he has claimed both Denmark and Norway, which are also geographically separated by a deep sea. So, in some ways, it's a bit of a geeky thing, but it came out and became a well-known technology. That's quite funny. And the symbol for Bluetooth is two runes.

NK: H and B.

MR: Yes, exactly. [NK chuckles]

NK: I wonder what you are hoping to learn, what else you're hoping to learn as you keep looking at these artefacts and what you found in these graves?

MR: You know, of course, I'm interested in the Viking Age and the development of society and the kingdom. And it was a very sort of, you know, fragmented time where there was a lot of war and things going on. So, it's a bit of a mystery how they managed to keep the kingdom together. And it's, you know, it somehow is also relevant today when you see that keeping a realm together isn't just not the usual thing, that's actually the unusual thing. You see it in some countries falling apart. And in some ways, it's sociologically and historically interesting to study these societies, how they actually manage to keep things together. It's a history lesson for all.

NK: Mads, a pleasure speaking with you, thank you.

MR: Yeah, it's my pleasure.

CH: Mads Ravn is an archaeologist at the nearby Moesgaard Museum in Aarhus, Denmark. And that’s where we reached him.

[ambient]

Wildfire Homeless

CH: Gregg Charles is making the best of a tough situation. He and his wife have been staying in a tent in Air Ronge, Saskatchewan, since wildfires forced them out of the cabin they called home. Since they left, it's burned to the ground. So for the foreseeable future, a relative's back yard will be home.

SOUNDCLIP

GREGG CHARLES: When it started to, the fires were starting, we decided to come and set up here, me and my wife. We're at this tent for quite a while now. So, we pitched a tent and got our little things there, a bed and stuff like that. You know, we got all the trees and stuff like that and it's kind of secluded here. And it's nice, you know? It's a lot of shade. So, the only problem that we have is there's so much noise at night. And it's we're used to being in a place where it's calm and always there's no noise whatsoever. You know, just owls sometimes at night and that's about it. But now, you know, the sirens, you know, quads from, like last night, from 11 o'clock till 4:30 there was quads running around here. So it'll take a long time to, you know, get that place back in the way it was before. Well, it's all burnt now. There's nothing there. We can't even cross the bridge now. It's burnt there. I have to fix it up in order to go in there. And it's just bare, just like, you know, prairies. And all those little trees were bent like that. So those are the ones that are burnt now, and just like kindling. And just went up in flames just like that.

NK: Have you been back to see it?

GREGG CHARLES: No, but I got pictures of it, yeah. You have to walk in there in order to see it, but I was, it's always been my home over there. My parents were trappers over there, and we grew up there. I grew up, I'm one of the youngest in the family.

CANDICE LIPSKI: How are you feeling now that that is lost?

GC: Well, I sort of knew it was going to happen one of these days, because it's so dry and everything like that. And in the summertime, we have a lot of mushroom pickers, chanterelles, and there's a lot campers, and I, you know, one of the days I thought, you know, somebody's going to start a fire, you know, well, just about did a couple of times already. Yeah, it's been really hard for us to keep going as much as we can and help each other. We know that, we're glad that there's not anybody lost their lives from that fire. I'm happy for that, you know, so many houses burned, different communities, and I feel for them, you know?

CH: Gregg Charles is staying in a family member's yard in Air Ronge, Saskatchewan. He was speaking with CBC's Candice Lipski.

[ambient]

Encore: Animal Theft

CH: Darren Pardoe is a repairman in Cornwall, England. On social media, he advertises many skills: roofing, gutter replacement, plastering, and installing seagull deterrents. Well, it seems like the seagulls don't take too kindly to that work. Because recently, one decided to get back at Mr Pardoe. Earlier this month, after working on a roof, Mr. Pardoe decided to grab a cup of coffee. He was just chatting, taking some pictures of the harbour, when a seagull arrived. He told the BBC what happened next, quote, "I turn round and sure enough a seagull's got its beak in my coffee... next minute the bird picks up the coffee cup by its handle and takes off across the harbour with it... It flew round the harbour and then landed on the water, put the cup down, and the cup just sank." Unquote. Mr. Pardoe snapped a picture of the bird mid-flight, with the cup in its beak, that's been shared online. Now, of course, here at As It Happens, we have an archive full of stories about animals that dabble in thievery. But perhaps the top dog is Dusty, a cat. Over a decade ago, Dusty became an international celebrity for his cat burglary. Owner Jean Chu spoke to our former host Carol Off in February 2011.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Hello, Jean?

JEAN CHU: Yes, hi.

CO: How's Dusty today?

JC: Dusty is sleeping right now. [chuckling] But he's great.

CO: [chuckling] Now, we're not just talking about stealing the odd chew toy or an old sneaker. We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of items that Dusty has stolen. When did you first start to notice that this was going on?

JC: We probably started to kind of notice about three-and-a-half years ago, because we'd see little things here and there. Originally, it was a piece of a glove on our bed, and I'm yelling at Jim that he should not be leaving these things up here, he should throw them way downstairs. And he's like, I think Dusty brought that. Then after a while, we noticed those gloves here and then towels, and he had a little hiding place out in the front yard that he'd like to sleep at. And when we found a glove and a towel there, and it's like, for sure, it's gotta be this cat. [CO chuckles] And I finally started collecting it, I mean, truly collecting it all, after I saw a People magazine article about another cat that was bringing things home. And I just said, oh, Dusty brings way more stuff than this. And I started to keep it.

CO: Now, you say towels, bathing suits, wasn't that a specialty of Dusty's?

JC: Yeah, he likes bathing suits. And I always figured it was things that people left outside. So maybe a bathing suit they were drying, but we had a lot of bathing suits, children's mostly, but then we got our neighbour's bikini, you know, top and bottom.

CO: And he made two separate trips. He went back for the top.

JC: Yeah, that one he went back for, yes. [chuckling] That was funny, because the bottom came first. Then, the next morning, we got the bra top, the top of the bikini, and I thought, this is perfect, I can display it right up with everything else. And before I even had a chance, the neighbour came by and asked for her bathing suit back.

CO: When did Dusty, or better known as Klepto the cat, when was Dusty on his route there stealing this stuff?

JC: Mostly in the evening, just about when we would go to bed, he would start heading out. And sometime during the night, sometimes I'd hear him meowing and meowing, which meant he brought something home. And he'd be home maybe at 4 in the morning or so.

CO: And now, there were a lot of toys there, and some look like little stuffed toys that maybe some little kid was missing.

JC: Yes, we had several, several stuffed toys. And then, he has footballs, the puppets, the little bears. We'd find little animals like from Happy Meals.

CO: Did you try and find the owners of these objects?

JC: You know, this is really funny because I would go out and go to the neighbours that had children that I knew of and knock on their doors and ask if any of these things looked familiar. And the other night, after all this aired, I had some neighbours come by and ask, you know, am I the cat lady? And I said, yeah, I think so. And I think you have some of our things. And he told me the board shorts and the car wash mitts. And I asked him where he lived and he told and I said you know I went to your house. And he said, you now, we just thought our son was leaving his shorts at swim school.

CO: Did you find any embarrassing items that maybe people did not want to claim?

JC: The men's briefs no one has claimed yet. The lady's bra, when Animal Planet came out, we were doing a lot more talking and I found out who it belonged to, and she what she did want it back.

CO: Animal Planet is a TV show?

JC: Yes, and they're the ones that aired the must-love cats with the Dusty in it.

CO: Well, they managed to catch Dusty in his operations. [JC chuckles] He was the night vision camera, which was quite something to see Dusty in action.

JC: The night vision camera was the best. I mean, I wish we had done that ourselves.

CO: So, you know that there's one other cat that's done this. Any concern there might be some copycats?

JC: [laughing] Dusty, you're a bad example! [both laugh].

CO: Well, Jean, it's great to talk to you.

JC: Well, thank you so much.

CO: Bye-bye.

JC: Okay. Bye-Bye.

CH: From February of 2011, that's Jean Chu speaking with our former host Carol Off about her cat, Dusty, who had a penchant for stealing items -- from toys to clothes. Dusty died in 2023 at the age of 17. Jean Chu told ABC7 News then that she hoped people would remember him as a "fun cat that went out and tried to bring presents home."

The AIH Transcript For June 19, 2025

Social Sharing