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The AIH transcript for June 6, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Outnumbered. A volunteer firefighter from Saskatchewan tells us about battling a fire that would eventually engulf his community -- and his home.

CH: The situation of the situationship. After years of diplomatic tension, Canada appears to be mending fences with India. But some members of the Sikh diaspora won't give Narendra Modi a warm welcome.

NK: Levy metal. Canada's industry minister Mélanie Joly tells us -- and workers -- what she'll do to try to protect steel and aluminum jobs -- in the face of punishing U.S. tariffs.

CH: Reframing her narrative. The first woman to open an art gallery in France -- and to sell a Picasso -- has faded from view. We hear from the researcher who is trying to restore her to her rightful place.

NK: They both deliver the goods -- but who delivers the bests? The piping hot rivalry between two Ontario cities over who makes the best pizza pits shredded pepperoni and canned mushrooms against extreme cheese and a dough ball.

CH: And...their self-chair routine. It's traditional in Spain for seniors to sit outdoors and chat with friends -- so when one town implied they should take it inside, some angry people wanted to take it outside.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio that thinks: from where we sit, there's nothing wrong with where they sit.

[theme]

Part 1: SASK. Firefighter, Melanie Joly, Cornwall/Windsor Pizza

SASK. Firefighter

Guest: Harley Vliegenthart

CH: It has been a very hard couple of weeks for Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Upwards of 30,000 people are still out of their homes, as wildfires rage across both provinces. It's exhausting for everyone. And it's been particularly trying for the many volunteer firefighters who've seen the flames approaching their own communities. Harley Vliegenthart is one of them. He was battling a wildfire in his hometown of Denare Beach. We reached him in Sainte Rose du Lac, Manitoba.

NK: Harley, you have certainly seen a lot. You've lost a lot as well. How are you doing at this point? Have you been able to rest at all?

HARLEY VLIEGENTHART: I'd say I'm doing not too bad. I'm one of the lucky ones, you know? I've had a place to land. I've got my extended family here, my family friends and stuff here in Saint-Rose-du-Lac. And the rest of my family's here. We're all safe. So, I'd said I'm not doing too bad. I'm one of the lucky ones.

NK: And where you are right now is about seven hours from Denare Beach. Under the best of circumstances, it takes seven hours. What was that trek like?

HV: Well, I left home on June the 2nd, just shortly after we had the emergency evac order to leave our line when we were trying to fight the fire in Denare Beach, and we were stationed in Creighton for a while when me and a few of my other firefighter friends and family, we made the tough decision to leave the fight. We had to take an emergency escort out of Creighton down the Number 10 Highway past Snow Lake Manitoba. I stayed in Wanlis for the night, and then I drove down to St. Rose the next day. So, she was quite the long trek, that's for sure.

NK: What was it like around you?

HV: On the Number 10 there, they had some small flare-ups; quite a big fire now, actually, down by Bakers Narrows there just outside of Flin Flon, that we had to be escorted through by the RCMP. So yeah, at some points there was flame on either side of the highway. You know, it doesn't shake you too much after everything you see with your community going up, but not the easiest trip, that's for sure.

NK: This is a small volunteer fire department fighting hard, as you as you've said. But did you feel equipped as a team to deal with what you were actually facing?

HV: Well, as a team, I'd say we had, you know, some of the hardest-working men and women I've ever known. But for equipment, no, we were not well equipped at all for a fire of this magnitude, no. Denare Beach here, we're just a small volunteer department of 13 people on a good day. And to be fair, we did have the SPSA fire base there as well, but they were spread all throughout the province. And they didn't really have anything they could spare us. A type one crew here or whatever, but not much for equipment at all.

NK: Were you surprised by that?

HV: Not too really, not really, not too surprised. We were just talking earlier this summer that this might, you know, joking around, maybe this is the summer that we get it, and it was, and we all knew then that we weren't in too good of a spot if it happened to come through Denare Beach here. Obviously, as the world is now seeing, we weren't.

NK: I spoke yesterday on our show to Gracie Dareichuk. She was visiting their family home in Denare Beach as well. And then, they ended up, you know, after they fled, they saw it burned to the ground, and others, through their neighbours' doorbell camera. She said that she feels more resources should have been deployed. We'll play a little bit for you and our listeners of what she said.

SOUNDCLIP

GRACIE DAREICHUK: It's mainly local fire departments fighting this fire from Saskatchewan. You know, when winds changed, we just did not have enough firefighters out there. Like, it was only local. And, you know, this was a big-scale fire, but it should have been dealt with way before this happened. Like, I think it should've been dealt with, like, weeks before then.

NK: It sounds like, you know, you and your colleagues felt that way as well, Harley. What lessons do you hope people in power take away from what has happened and what you've experienced?

HV: Well, absolutely what Gracie was saying there is correct, not just Denare or Creighton, but I'd say a lot of northern Saskatchewan communities rely on a volunteer basis to make up our fire departments. It's spitting in the wind when a rank six wildfire comes to your community. I really hope that what happened to Denare Beach Saskatchewan can be a shining example of how these things happen, the result of things being put off, the lack of resources, confusion, and a reminder of how we have to work better in the future, take our time and really change the face of firefighting strategy in this country. So that something like this never happens again.

NK: Confusion. When you say confusion, what did that look and feel like when this was all unfolding when you were there? What was not being communicated clearly?

HV: Well, as far as resources go and confusion, I mean, as many times we felt as if we were fighting two different fires there, Flin Flon, Creighton, and Denare Beach were a very tight-knit tri-community there. But Flin Flon’s side, they had multiple detachments sent up to help them with pumper trucks and the like. And Creighton and Denare, we were more or less left to fend for ourselves.

NK: When did you realize, Harley, because you fought fires before, I expect, when did you realize this was so clearly different than what you'd seen before?

HV: Oh, well, we've never been a wildfire department or nothing. We fought house fires, small house fires, grass fires, and the like. So, we were headstrong and ready again to do our best to defend our community. But we all knew that we were in over our head. And that was felt all the way down the line. I feel like we aren't wildland firefighters.

NK: It takes a lot of bravery to be a firefighter, volunteer, or otherwise, but what you're describing and knowing, going into that knowing what you are and are not equipped for, is even more frightening and unimaginable.

HV: That was a pretty tough spot, that's for sure.

NK: You lost your own home in the fire. How are you dealing with that? And I mean, are you even able to think about what you do next?

HV: You know, the smoke is cleared for the most part, and all I can think about is rebuilding. We're here to pick up the pieces, and most of the people I know, they lost their homes, they lost their houses. But we're one big, strong community. I'd like to mention, if I get a chance here, that I'm, not myself, but a few of my firefighter friends and brothers and sisters there were putting together an archival project for any sort of photo, video, written testimony for this fire. It'll be going up online. It's called Songs From the Camp Fire. And as we rebuild and everything, I think it'd be a reminder of how these things happen, and how we can make sure it never happens again.

NK: I'm glad you told us about that, Harley, and I really do appreciate your time in the midst of everything you're dealing with. Thank you for this. Please take care.

HV: You too.

CH: Harley Vliegenthart is a volunteer firefighter from Denare Beach, Saskatchewan. We reached him in Saint-Rose-du-Lac, Manitoba. We requested comment from Saskatchewan's Public Safety Agency, but we didn't hear back by air time.

[sombre instrumental]

Melanie Joly

Guest: Melanie Joly

CH: Since the latest tariff bombshell this week, the Canadian government has been trying to buy some time. The Liberals have faced calls from Ontario Premier Doug Ford, unions, and the opposition to hit back hard, after the U.S. doubled tariffs on steel and aluminum to 50 per cent. But so far, the government has held off on retaliation, in favour of private talks between Prime Minister Mark Carney and Donald Trump. Sources say the two have exchanged text messages and phone calls with the goal -- at least on the Canadian side -- of seeing tariffs lifted. Melanie Joly is Canada's minister of industry. She was in Hamilton today meeting with management and workers at a steel company. And that's where we reached her.

NK: Minister Joly, you were meeting with steelworkers in Hamilton today. These are people whose jobs are on the line, their livelihoods. What did they tell you?

MELANIE JOLY: Well, absolutely. Indeed, their jobs are on the line, and that's why I went to meet with them. Because we want to make sure that it's not the case. That we protect them, protect their livelihoods, because we know that many communities that live off steel across the country are right now threatened by these unacceptable, illegal, unjustified tariffs by the U.S. And so, my job today was to meet at ArcelorMittal Dofasco in Hamilton, to be in solution mode on the short-term, middle-term, and longer-term. And I can tell you, Nil, with pleasure what we're looking at.

NK: I do want to get into those details. I wonder though, you know, these are people, as you well know, a lot is on the line for them. They're tough, and they don't have a lot of time for promises that don't come to be. So, do you feel you were able to reassure them?

MJ: I think so. But you know, as everything in life, what is important is actions, not only words. So, what was clear, and the message I conveyed was, first, we will make sure that we will protect our workers. And we will continue to make sure through supporting the domestic market, we know that we can't accept any unfair trade practices from other countries. We can't accept any form of dumping in our country. This is an existential moment, and we need to make sure that we take consequential decisions. So, I'm working right now with the CEOs of the steel industry, with the labour organizations to find the right solution. So, I think we can announce very soon some ways to make sure that we target and we tackle that issue directly. What we need to do is also, we need to build. Short-term, we're fighting against these tariffs, and with counter-tarrifs. Also, we are protecting our workers, protecting our market, protecting also against unfair practices. And we're building much more in the longer term also. That's why the prime minister tabled an important bill today, which is about one Canadian economy, getting rid of internal barriers between provinces, but also building up major infrastructure projects.

NK: You mentioned, Minister, your conversations with labour. I spoke with the president of Unifor earlier this week, and she said she wants to see immediate counter-tariffs levied against the United States. She agrees with Ontario's premier on that. And she said, you know, she understands the predicament that the federal government is in, and who and what you're dealing with in the U.S. But she said it has to come quickly. They're saying retaliate. So, are you going to do that? How much longer will you wait?

MJ: Well right now, everything is on the table. And obviously, we need to fight back. We're working with industries and with labour to find a solution. We're all on the same boat, and we need continue to fight. And we need to, at the same time, think about how can we invest in ourselves by making sure that through major projects, major infrastructure projects, we support Canadian steel and aluminum from here. And that will create jobs down the line.

NK: Lana Payne also said to us in our conversation, she said, you know what, if it comes to it, if we're in that position, the U.S. needs our aluminum and steel, we should stop sending it to them at these tariff rates. We should just stop sending it to. Is that something that you are considering?

MJ: So, there are a couple of things. So, we're in a trade war. I used to be the foreign minister, and I've been saying I left the diplomatic front to go to the economic front of the trade war. In any war, there is fighting happening, and at the same time, there's always a diplomatic table when negotiations are happening. We're doing both right now. So, we have the highest counter-tariffs in the world, and there's only two countries that have put counter-tariffs against American products, and it's China and us. And at the same time, what we're doing is, indeed, we're negotiating. And that's why my colleague Dominic LeBlanc was in Washington this week. And I hear the calls for counter-tariffs. I've been working on the U.S. file for now months. And I know that pressure is important. And, you know, that's what I'll do. Meanwhile, we need to help the workers, we need to help the companies, and we need liquidity for these companies to make sure that they're bridging their, you know, their operations and their finances until we're able to get them with good business with major national projects. Because time is of the essence, there's urgency, and we're in a trade war, and we have to fight back.

NK: Just really quickly, Minister, we know the private talks, we know about them, that Prime Minister Carney is having with the U.S. president. But you also know very well, he's shown over and over again, the U.S. president has, that he's willing to tear up long-standing agreements and change course very quickly. So, how can Canadian workers, Canadians right across the country, trust any deal that may come out of these talks?

MJ: Well, we know that there's a lot of unpredictability that comes out of the White House. We know that. We're not surprised by it. But at the same time, we have leverage. We're the biggest client of the U.S. You know, our tariffs are hurting right now Americans. And we need to continue to buy local, buy Canadian, and, you know, stand strong together. I know that it seems completely unfair because it is unfair. But, you know, we are taking the right decisions right now to make sure that we're positioning ourselves not only now but also in the future to make sure that were Canada strong. And meanwhile, we're taking it day by day. As the minister of industry, my job is not only to protect jobs, but to create ones. So, while I was at ArcelorMittal Dofasco in Hamilton, not only did we talk about making sure that we were protecting jobs, but we were talking about new investments by the company to create more jobs. Because we're able to do that, not withstanding the unpredictability that is coming out of the White House that is not just affecting us, but the entire world.

NK: Minister Joly, I appreciate your time. You'll need to come back when you have those other measures to announce. We hope you do. Thank you for this, Minister.

MJ: Thank you, a couple of days, thank you.

CH: Melanie Joly is Canada's minister of industry. We reached her in Hamilton, Ontario.

[indie rock]

Cornwall/Windsor Pizza

Guests: Kev Kalaydjian, Steve Vavougious

CH: If I told you there was a pizza rivalry for the ages between two great cities, which metropolises would you guess I was talking about? Naples and Rome? Maybe New York and Chicago? Actually, you know what? Those are both great guesses. But I'm talking about Windsor, Ontario -- and Cornwall, Ontario. Windsor has its own signature style of pie, which is topped with shredded pepperoni. But Cornwall claims its signature pie is infinitely superior. Someone even wrote a song about it:

SOUNDCLIP

[P-I-ZZ-A The Cornwall Way by Bloodshot Bill]

BLOODSHOT BILL: [singing] They come from the east when they want a piece, They come from the west when they want the best, Yes, of course, they come from the north, They come from the south just to put it in their mouth, Talk about P-I-Z-Z-A, Pizza made the Cornwall way.

CH: Bloodshot Bill with his song extolling the virtues of Cornwall pizza. Now, the mayors of Windsor and Cornwall say they're prepared to hold a contest to establish once and for all whose pie is better. And our two guests today both know who they think will win. And I assume neither of them thinks it will be each other. Kev Kalaydjian is the co-owner of Capri Pizza in Windsor, Ontario. And Steve Vavougious is the co-owner of North End Pizza in Cornwall, Ontario.

NK: Kev, Steve, thank you for stepping away from the pizza ovens when when your people need you the most. Thank you.

STEVE VAVOUGIOUS: No problem, we'll take it on this hot day.

NK: What did you think when you heard that this was bubbling up?

STEVE VAVOUGIOUS: I'll go first, I guess. It's something that's been brewing all the time. I get customers that say it all the time, I get people that travel that say it all time. It seems there's a little bit of a competitive nature up in the air about this topic, but that's about all I know.

NK: Okay, you're just making a pizza. And, Kev, what makes a Windsor-style pizza a Windsor-style pizza

KEV KALAYDJIAN: Some of the main ingredients would make a Windsor-style pizza. We have a bread crust; it's a thinner crust. We've got cheese from a local company here from Galati Cheese. Shredded pepperoni is a very distinct characteristic of our pizza.

NK: Shredded, okay.

KK: That's for sure.

NK: What makes the difference in the shredding?

KK: I can remember when I was very young, they used to cut the pepperoni with, like, just regular kitchen knives here. And you would just cut it and julienne it, [NK chuckles] and it would make for the pizza to have the toppings more evenly spreaded, you know what I mean? I think that's the number one reason why they did it. But ever since, I don't know the 50s, that's how Windsor had their pepperoni. It was always shredded.

NK: Interesting. And, Steve, what is Cornwall pizza like? I have to admit, I've eaten a lot of pizza, you guys, and I don't think I've had pizza from either of your great cities, which is a huge loss on my part, clearly [chuckling]

SV: Cornwall pizza starts with the dough. I mean, we make it fresh every day. It's always for the next day; you got to let it rise, but we usually use the thicker style crust. So, you get, like, your one-and-a-half to two-inch crust. And along the same lines, we use sliced pepperoni, not shredded. Cornwall, I would say, is known for, like, really thick, you know, like two layers of pepperoni, two layers of cheese, and your toppings, your mushrooms, your green peppers, anything else you want. It's mostly known for the size. I mean, it's like a one-to-two slice per person meal in Cornwall.

NK: What do you think it is? I mean, is it just that, you know, Kev, you can take this one first if you want. Is it just the people are used to what they have in their own community?

KK: Yeah. Like, Nil, everybody grows up on a memory, right? And because of that memory, people, you know, they're, whether it's, you know, a Friday night pizza night with the family, or a special occasion, or whatever it is, everybody has their local go-to pizza place. And you know what? Windsor's full of them. And we've got some really good competitors here in Windsor. And I think that's what really drives Windsor's, you know, competitive edge on being, you know, world-famous, I think. Because everybody is always, you know, you always have to deliver that same pie for that, you know, that customer, that next generation, right?

NK: In a world that's changing a lot, they want their pizza to taste the same. It's not clear at this point how this contest is going to work. Cornwall Mayor Justin Towndale suggested to our colleagues at CBC News Windsor that each city would have a competition to determine their best pizza, and then impartial judges from outside both cities would crown a winner. Steve, let me start with you. Why are you confident that your city might come out on top?

SV: Um, I mean, look, we haven't changed the recipe in 40 years at our restaurant, right? And we sell a lot of pizza, right? And we get the same people coming back, coming back. I get the comments, this is the best pizza every day. Get people that stop from Montreal on the way back from Toronto, to Toronto, Kingston, and they just keep coming back. So, I mean, I'm going to stick with that. I'm gonna let the customers do the talking.

NK: I'm excited to try pizza from both Cornwall and Windsor, from your restaurants, for sure. You said --.

SV: Yeah, you could be the judge. You come down and be the judge.

NK: You used the phrase world-famous. You know what? That could be another career for me. We'll mull that over, [SV and NK chuckles] but they never let me leave the studio. So, I have to ask you, both of you, your opinions on Hawaiian pizza. We have a long tradition of talking about Hawaiian pizza on this program, many, many interviews. It's arguably more divisive of an issue than which of your cities makes better pizza? [SV laughs] Uh, Steve, any thoughts on Hawaiian? Is this something that you can get behind?

SV: Absolutely. The amount of people that order it, they like it, they want it, there's a market for it.

NK: You serve it?

SV: Let's serve it, let's do it.

NK: You serve it at your restaurant?

SV: All the time.

NK: Okay. And Kev?

KK: Oh yeah, I'm a big fan. I mean, I don't eat it all the time, but I'm a big fan. It's nice to switch it up. I can remember, I'll tell you a funny story, when we first started doing pineapple, we'd open just maybe a small can, and it was more of a novelty. And now, we're, you know, we go through cases. It's a real, it's on people's palate all the times, for sure.

NK: It's a Canadian classic.

KK: No, it's great.

NK: Kev, Steve, it was really great talking to both of you. You know what, before we go, I did want to ask you, because I've been having a lot of conversations, and maybe people at your restaurants are too, about tariffs, and the disputes with the U.S., and all the other international trade issues we've been talking about. Is it kind of nice to just have this, if this is the only battle you have to deal with?

KK: [laughing] Absolutely. I agree with you. Absolutely. And both of us are going to be winners. So, absolutely. [laughing].

NK: Steve?

SV: Yeah, absolutely. We serve local products, all our products are locally sourced, so we'll let the politicians do the talking about the rest, and we'll just focus on the pizza.

KK: Yeah.

NK: Steve, Kev, a pleasure. We'll let you get back to your customers. I appreciate this, gentlemen. Take care.

KK: Likewise. Thank you. Okay, Neil, thank you very much.

SV: Thank you. Good luck, Kev.

KK: Have a great day. Bye.

CH: Kev Kalaydjian is the co-owner of Capri Pizza in Windsor, Ontario. And Steve Vavougious is the co-owner of North End Pizza in Cornwall, Ontario.

[indie rock]

Spain Seat PSA

CH: For generations, science has struggled to answer a vexing question: pie or cake? And now, finally, we have an empirical answer. Using the Large Hadron Collider --

[muffled house music sounds]

CH: Oh, come on, not again. I'm so sorry about this. Neighbours? Neighbours! It's the radio program next door? Hello? We've talked about this! We really need you to please stop blasting Rhythm is a Dancer! Turn it off! Turn it -- I'm sorry. Some new people moved in next door, and they're always blasting Rhythm is a Dancer. I have confronted them. I said, "Listen: I don't understand what 'rhythm is a dancer' means." But they just smirked at me and, "um, it's pretty obvious, young man." Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention our new neighbours are in their eighties. Honestly, that's why, at first, I thought police in the Spanish town of Santa Fe had done the right thing. They recently put up a social media post that read, "We know that putting chairs or tables outside the door is a tradition in many towns, but the public road is regulated. If police ask you to remove them, do so out of respect and in the interests of coexistence." The problem was the photo with those words. A photo of six older women sitting outside, enjoying the traditional Spanish evening pastime of tomando el fresco, or "taking the cool air." They're just having a nice time. And people did not take kindly to the suggestion that they, or their chairs, were problematic. In fact, people were so angry about this disrespectful post that the mayor of Santa Fe had to go on the radio to calm everyone down, saying the police just wanted residents to disturb anyone's sleep -- and assuring everyone that local seniors should feel, quote, "totally safe in the knowledge that they can carry on cooling off outdoors." Unquote. Well, good. I hope they enjoy being outside. Even if there's an outside chance they'll start blasting Rhythm is a Dancer.

[hip-hop]

Part 2: Modi At G7, Berthe Weill Exhibit

Modi At G7

Guest: Saira Bano

CH: Canada's on-again-off-again relationship with India appears to be back on. After reportedly failing to extend an invitation to Narendra Modi, Prime Minister Mark Carney's office has confirmed that the Indian PM will be attending next week's G7 summit in Kananaskis, Alberta. That's a major shift in relations between the two countries, nearly two years after the assassination of Sikh separatist Hardeep Singh Nijjar in British Columbia. Canada accused India's government of involvement in that killing -- which precipitated a full-blown diplomatic crisis. Speaking to reporters today, Prime Minister Carney explained the reasoning behind today's olive branch.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: Uh, India the fifth largest economy in the world, effectively the most populous country in the world, central to a number of those supply chains, at the heart of the number of supply chains. So, it makes sense. And in addition, bilaterally, we have now agreed, importantly, to continued law enforcement, to law enforcement dialog. So, there's been some progress on that that recognizes issues of accountability. I extended the invitation to Prime Minister Modi in that context, and he has accepted.

CH: Saira Bano is an assistant professor of Political Science at Thompson Rivers University, specializing in South Asia and Canada's relationship with India. We reached her today in Toronto.

NK: Saira, were you expecting this to happen, for Modi to get this invite?

SAIRA BANO: Yes, I was expecting this to happen because there were signs of improvement in relations. For example, last month, our foreign minister, Anita Anand, she had a phone call with her Indian counterpart. And she said that both these foreign ministers, they had a productive talk. And during election campaign, Mark Carney said that our relations with India are incredibly important. So, there were signs there with change of leadership there are going to be improvements in relations.

NK: So, the groundwork was being laid over the last several weeks and months, as you said there. Ultimately, though, what does this signal to you? Is the diplomatic dispute over, or is this just the beginning?

SB: It's the beginning of potential resolution. It's not over yet because both states, they do have concern. As our prime minister said that we agreed to have a dialog of law enforcement. It means that Canada is going to express its own concerns of India's involvement in killing of its citizens on Canadian soil. That is a blatant violation of its sovereignty. On the other hand, India is going to express its own concerns of this security concerns of pro-Khalistan activities in Canada. So, this is a good sign that both states agree to have dialog, to have negotiations.

NK: There are others who agree with you that this is a good sign, but as you well know, Saira, many people, particularly in the Sikh diaspora, are deeply concerned about the killing of Hardip Singh Nijjar, the allegation the Indian government was involved, and potentially involved in other murders on Canadian soil as well. So, Sikh groups are saying this, to them, signals the federal government is putting economic concerns ahead of human rights. What would you say to them?

SB: Yes, they are going to, like, both countries have concerns, security concerns. Both countries are going to express their concerns. And this is where you need a dialog. You just can't cut off diplomatic relations, and you just can't let diplomatic relations deteriorate. You need to improve relations because it is in the interest of both countries to improve relations. As our prime minister alluded that India is the fifth largest economy. It means that Canada has economic interest to establish economic relations. Before this incident happened, India and Canada, they were in the process of negotiating a free trade agreement. Canada needs to diversify its economy, and India provides excellent opportunity.

NK: So, that's what would potentially be of Canada's interest, certainly, at this moment in time when we're talking about International trade. But in terms of what is in it for India in this moment, what would you say?

SB: India has diaspora in Canada. Both countries have people-to-people contact. Both countries are democracies. These trade relations are going to be in mutual interest of both states. It's not that Canada is going to get benefit, India is going get benefit of these trade relations as well.

NK: What are you going to be watching for to make sure that this relationship is heading in the direction that you and others hope it heads into?

SB: So, I will be watching for meeting between these two leaders. I will watching how these diplomatic relations are going to be normalized as the way before September 2023, a resumption of all the diplomatic posts that Canada and India expelled from each other's country. And I'll be watching how a resumption of negotiations, institutionalization of negotiations where both countries are going to agree to meet on regular basis to address these concerns.

NK: And what do you think would need to come out of these discussions, you know, out of Kananaskis when these leaders meet face-to-face, even if it's for a short time, what would Sikh Canadians and others in the diaspora, what do you think they would need hear to feel better about this invitation?

SB: They need to hear from Prime Minister Carney, allay their concerns that we are going to prioritize our national interest in protecting its citizens. We are going to take this very seriously. We are to make it clear to India that Canada is very much committed to protecting its citizens. And these types of cross-national murders are going be unacceptable. These are red lines for us. Addressing these concerns are very important for Sikh community right now.

NK: Saira, I appreciate this. Thank you.

SB: You are very welcome. Thank you for having me.

CH: Saira Bano is an assistant professor of Political Science at Thompson Rivers University. We reached her in Toronto.

[ambient]

Seventy-Six-Year-Old Grad

CH: Judy Obee joined her classmates at Alberta's Athabasca University today in a triumphant moment -- walking across the stage to get their degrees. But unlike her classmates, Ms. Obee won't be working on her resume over the next few months. She's not really in the job market. She's 76. Nevertheless, it was thoughts of her future that sent Judy Obee back to school.

SOUNDCLIP

JUDY OBEE: So, the biggest issue in my life is that both of my parents lived past 90, and they both had dementia. And my mom's was probably Alzheimer's. And my reading on the subject has indicated that, you know, live a healthy lifestyle and, you know, exercise your body, eat healthy, and that sort of stuff, and you can help to delay it. But they also say that if you use your brain, this is a good thing. So, I said to myself that if I actually went back to university; I have a degree from 1970, going back to University, that would really stretch the brain. And I did some investigation and found Athabasca's online program and I decided it was a good fit for me.

CHRIS DELA TORRE: That's incredible. And I know that the degree that you had already is a math degree.

JO: Correct.

CDT: How did you decide on what to study this time?

JO: Well, I found that Athabasca had a Bachelor of General Studies program. It was only a three-year program, which was kind of nice, but the whole thing about it is I could learn whatever I wanted. [CDT chuckles] I could take all sorts of different courses. Because, I mean, at my age, I've been exposed to a whole lot of things, and I could get deep into these courses. You could take whatever you want. This is so cool!

CDT: [laughing] So what kinds of things did you study?

JO: Well, I started with humanities, which is as far away from math on the academic spectrum as you can get. [CDT laughs] And I actually did quite well, which totally surprised me, because it was so far away from math. And I took a bunch of psychology courses, sociology, economics, finance, statistics, physics. Um, and I culminated with math and music because those are my absolute two favourites. But it was just that every time that I finished a course, I would go and say, okay, what am I kind of interested in now? What an experience. And the other aspect of it from my age is that I don't have a career at the end of this.

CDT: Mm-hmm.

JO: I'm taking stuff because I think it's interesting. I think the whole learning process is interesting. I'm, you know, there's nothing driving me other than me. And that's so much nicer than when I was working my first degree.

CH: That's 76-year-old Judy Obee. The Calgary woman has just earned a bachelor of general studies degree from Athabasca University. She was talking to Chris Dela Torre, on The Homestretch in Calgary.

[hip-hop]

High Schooler ICE Arrest

CH: He was just on his way to volleyball practice -- when he was arrested by ICE. Eighteen-year-old Marcelo Gomes da Silva of Chelmsford, Massachusetts, just spent almost a week in a detention centre. He emigrated to the U.S. from Brazil when he was seven. Last Saturday, he was apprehended by authorities who say they were looking to arrest his father for reckless driving. Marcelo Gomes da Silva is now out on bond. Here's what he said about the conditions in detention.

SOUNDCLIP

MARCELO GOMES DA SILVA: I don't want to cry, but I want to say that that place, it's not good. It's not good. Ever since I got here, they had me in handcuffs. They put me downstairs. And I was in a room with a bunch of 35-year-old men. And those rooms were small compared to the size of how many men were there. There was like 40 men in there. We would barely get any attention from the people there. It would be really hard. I haven't showered in six days. I haven't done anything. The only thing I could do is thank God every day because that's all I would do. I would pray there; I would talk about the Bible to them. Sometimes our lunch and dinner would be crackers. At the end of the day, this place is not a good spot to be. Nobody should be in here. Like, most people down there are all workers, they all got caught going to work. And these people have families, man, they have kids to go home to. And there's like genuine criminals out there that people aren't giving attention to. They're getting good people that don't deserve to be here. I was one of the translators in there because I speak English, Portuguese, and Spanish. And they would come in there with their papers and they would say can you translate this for me because I don't want to sign something and get deported. And a lot of those papers, I'd have to look back at them and be like you're being deported. Like, they're taking you out of the country. I would have to watch people cry. Like, people with kids, like 10-month-old babies. No one deserves to be down there. You sleep on concrete floors. This right here is a bracelet that a Brazilian friend made me there. This is how we sleep. This is our blanket. They give us a really long sheet of this thin aluminum, I'm guessing, and we lay down on the concrete floor and put that over us and just sleep through the night. The doors are very, like, the doors are big, but there's only a small gap. And, like, there's days where we peek out the gap and we say, hey guard, can you give us something? And he'll be like, yeah, I'll get you it. And he would never come back.

CH: That was Marcelo Gomes da Silva speaking to reporters outside the detention centre in Burlington, Massachusetts.

[chillhop house tour music]

Berthe Weill Exhibit

Guest: Marianne Le Morvan

CH: She's believed to be the first woman to ever open a gallery, and the first person to sell a Picasso and a Matisse. But there's a very good chance that you're about to hear her name for the first time. Berthe Weill was born in 1865, became a well-known, influential art dealer in Paris, and then, she was all but forgotten. But now, thanks in large part to Marianne Le Morvan, her talent is finally starting to get the attention it deserves. Ms. Morvan is an independent researcher who reconstructed the archives of Ms. Weill's gallery, and helped curate a new exhibit on her career at The Montreal Museum of Fine Arts. She also wrote a biography of Ms. Weill. We reached Marianne Le Morvan in Paris.

NK: Marianne, if you had to describe Berthe Weill in one word, what would it be?

MARIANNE LE MORVAN: Pioneer.

NK: Yeah? When did she first enter your world? When did you first learn about her?

MLM: I think it was 17 years ago. [chuckling] One of my friends explained to me that she was the first woman art dealer specialized in art moderne, and she explained to me that she was totally unknown. I researched and I discovered that there is absolutely nothing about her.

NK: You became passionate about Berthe Weill, clearly.

MLM: Yes! [hearty laughter].

NK: And she was a passionate person, passionate about art, this pioneer. Where did her passion for art come from?

MLM: She has created a way to be free. She is from a very poor family. And with the art, she discovered a new world, and she contributes to this revolution, I think.

NK: It was an escape for her, a way to get out of the confines of being a woman at that time.

MLM: Absolutely.

NK: But it's one thing to do that and then to take the very next step, even though there was an art seller in her family, certainly a noted one, how did she end up opening her own gallery?

MLM: She had to contribute to find money for her family, so she began to work with a very far cousin of her family who was called Salvatore Meyer until he died. And at this time, she wants to create her own situation. She decided to open a gallery at the first time with one of her brother. And after, with a very important man was called Pedro Maniac. By Pedro Maniac, she was the first one to sell Picasso artwork in Paris.

NK: And he was just 19, a 19-year-old Picasso at that time.

MLM: Exactly.

NK: And our listeners heard some of the other incredibly well-known names and celebrated artists. What was it about her, I mean, to have that eye for that kind of art? [MLM chuckles] What did you learn about her when you were doing your research about that?

MLM: I learned how she understands things because I was wondering how she tried to understand pictures and new art at the time just when it was new. It's easier one century after, [chuckle] but I think she has this sense of freedom. And they share -- the artist and her -- exactly the same things.

NK: They understood each other, and she understood what they were trying to do.

MLM: Exactly.

NK: I suspect then there's a trust there, and that's how those relationships are built. She had support, she had connections with these artists, understanding with these artists, but she was still a woman in that time period. So, what kind of challenges did she experience because she was a woman?

MLM: A lot. Because it was a life entirely dedicated to art. She refused to marry and had no children, so she shared absolutely everything she had for help her artist and she never get money. [chuckling] So, it's really ironic because she was the first discoverer.

NK: What do you mean, she never got money? She must have, did she get any commission?

MLM: Just very few, and she never has to pay for exhibition for the artist. She never practices exclusivity in contract. And I think this is why she is so interesting. All of the artists stay really fair about her. They left, but they will be around and never too far from her.

NK: Did they thank her? I mean, did they appreciate what she did for them?

MLM: Absolutely. After her death, all of them organized a very big auction. All of them offered one painting and the money to thank all of her efforts to begin to their career.

NK: Being a Jewish woman as well, at that time period, the war impacted, you know, she had to close the gallery.

MLM: Absolutely.

NK: But what other obstacles did she face because she was Jewish as well?

MLM: So, I think she's really discreet about antisemitism, but it's a shadow. When you read the personal letters, you can feel strongly she was still there.

NK: Tell her listeners what she said in those letters.

MLM: How it's difficult and an awful situation. People was just in front of the door and say absolutely awful things. She was a very courageous woman.

NK: She was unique, a pioneer, a rebel in a lot of ways, clearly, based on what you've said. And you've done so much work on her, Marianne. Now that this exhibit is happening, what is it like for you to see that she's going to be recognized?

MLM: [chuckling] I have to say, if I was really patient, this is because it was unfair. This is a huge step for me, it's a very big act of justice for her, and it's the occasion for the museum to show two very important paintings of Berthe Weill.

NK: The pictures are, those paintings are beautiful; I was looking at them. The one where she's standing in front of all the frames, and she dressed very differently for the time as well when we talk about being rebellious.

MLM: Yes. She looks like religious, [chuckle] but for the art, not for God. [chuckling]

NK: Marianne, thank you for this.

MLM: Thank you to you.

CH: Marianne Le Morvan is a co-curator of the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts' exhibit on Berthe Weill, and the founder of her art gallery's archives. We reached Ms. Le Morvan in Paris.

[percussive jazz]

Part 3: Russian Sanction Arrest, World’s Smallest Violin

Cambridge Microcinema

CH: There are certain movies you just need to see on a big screen. Others you might prefer to watch at home on a smaller screen. But there are also movies that sit in between -- the ones you want to see with a group of twelve friends. Twelve friends exactly -- no more, no less. And for those, Leigh Cooney has just the thing. He's the owner of the The Little Prince micro-cinema in Stratford, Ontario...which holds the world record for "smallest purpose-built cinema in operation." And now, he's opened up a second tiny theatre -- in nearby Cambridge, Ontario's Gaslight District. This morning, he told the CBC where the idea for a micro-cinema first came from.

SOUNDCLIP

LEIGH COONEY: It happened kind of organically, I guess. I did own a gift shop in the same space in Stratford, and we had a small space at the back where we used to host little art shows, that sort of thing. And, but offsite, we used to also do, you know, local filmmakers, you know, screening events for short filmmakers, local filmmakers, that sorta thing. And we thought eventually, we're like, you know what? Why don't we just turn this space at the back of the shop into something permanent that we can do year 'round. And slowly but surely that started turning into, you know, tearing the seats and red velvet curtains and wallpaper. And yeah, at some point along the way, we came across the Guinness record holder, which was already bigger than what we were building. So, you now, we thought, well, why not jump in? And the only way to do that was to renovate the whole thing, to get a lobby built, you know, a concession stand.

CRAIG NORRIS: Wholly smokes!

LC: Yeah, and turn it into a proper tiny movie theatre.

CN: Does it still hold the record, the Guinness record?

LC: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it's still, yeah. We still have the Guinness record. Yes.

CN: Wow. So, what about Galt? I mean, is --

LC: Yeah. It's a few, it, so it's based on square footage, and the square footage is slightly bigger than our Stratford location. So, it's, it's what we're calling the "World's Second Smallest Movie Theatre".

CN: Yeah. How does it work? I mean, can someone, do you just show up and buy a ticket for the night showing, or how does this work?

LC: Yes, so a little bit of both. Because we're so small, you know, probably 80 per cent of our bookings at this point are private. So, you know, people just take the whole thing, they choose their own movie, we line up the movie with a trailer that matches the time period of the movie, things like that. And, and then, you know, the other 20 per cent of the time we do ticketed events like regular movie theatre, yeah.

CN: So, how, you know, you don't need to get into your business model, but I mean, there's not a lot of seats. I mean, how does one make money? Popcorn is $84 a bag.

LC: [laughing] Exactly. That's right. [CN laughs] We also hold the Guinness World record for most expensive popcorn. [both laugh] No, no, no. Honestly, we're never going to become millionaires, but we like what we do.

CN: Yeah.

LC: And honestly, those private bookings, it's a sold-out show every time, basically. But those private books are what keep us going.

CN: So, tell us the movie that you're showing tomorrow.

LC: Uh, so tomorrow, uh, well tonight actually, so we moved it up to tonight, um, because I wanted our first movie to be Gaslight from 1944.

CN: Nice!

LC: I thought that was amusing. And, uh, because tomorrow morning we're going to show a kids movie, uh, I was like, I don't want to look back and say our first movie was, you know, Toy Story or something. Uh, so we decided to go, uh just do one single screening tonight, just for posterity, so I could say that 1944's Gaslight was our first movie. And we're doing some classics, Princess Bride, It, Goonies, a lot of 80s things, [chuckling] things that I loved growing up. And since I get to pick them, I thought, you know, I'm going to go with what I enjoy, right? [CN chuckles] So, yeah.

CH: Leigh Cooney is the owner and operator of two Ontario micro-cinemas. He was speaking to the CBC's Craig Norris this morning.

[hip-hop]

Russian Sanction Arrest

Guest: Ihor Michalchyshyn

CH: It's the first-ever arrest under the Canadian law that put sanctions on Russia for its actions in Ukraine. Last month, a Russian national in Toronto was arrested for allegedly shipping drone parts to Russia. Today, the RCMP held a press conference to give more details about the case. Anton Trofimov was charged after a three-year investigation. The RCMP touted the cooperation of Canadian authorities as well as the FBI. In 2023, The Ukrainian Canadian Congress -- or UCC -- wrote to authorities asking them to investigate Mr. Trofimov. Ihor Michalchyshyn is the executive director of the UCC. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Ihor, these sanctions against Russia have been in place in Canada since 2014. We're just seeing the first arrest under this law now. That's more than a decade. Does that worry you?

IHOR MICHALCHYSHYN: It does. It's a long period of time. And as you mentioned, this is also the first of these kind of arrests and investigations. So, we have been pushing this. We've been writing to the department and to RCMP for the last two years on this issue, since it became public thanks to a Reuters investigation. We think that there is much more of this that's been happening, but we are pleased that the Canadian authorities are taking this quite seriously, and we hope that this will be the beginning of more investigations.

NK: And you flagged that Reuters report about Anton Trofimov. He was living in Toronto quietly. What, allegedly, was he doing to evade these sanctions?

IM: Well, yeah, the Reuters report that we saw that we wrote to the government about was about allegations of someone who was exporting items of technology from Canada to second or third parties and then eventually to Russia. The Ukrainian government has for many years shown the drones that they catch and capture, the ones that haven't exploded, that there are many components of every kind of system, every kind of country that is allied with Ukraine. but somehow, these components end up in these drones. So Trofimov, his company or companies, I guess, in this case, were alleged to be, basically, circumventing by selling to themselves and to others in numbered companies, third parties companies, that kind of thing.

NK: And these drones, in particular, tell our listeners a little bit about them and how they were being used in Ukraine.

IM: Well, in this case specifically, there's a drone called the Russia Orlan-10. It's the primary drone weapon that the Russian military uses. We saw, you know, last night in Kyiv over 200, I think maybe up to 400, Russian drones that were sent to Kyiv and various cities. So, this is how Russia punishes and kills civilians in Ukraine every day for the last three years. So, it is a major concern to us that Canadian components, frankly, that any Western components from countries that claim they have a sanctions regime, it really begs the question of how are these components getting through these alleged sanctions?

NK: These are charges at this point. They have not yet been tested in court, of course. But when you heard that there had been an arrest, what did you think

IM: We were pleased. Again, it's taken even from the time we wrote the letter, two years, to get to this point. So, we're pleased to see it's the first one. It's getting a lot of attention, which is, I think, should make everyone who is participating in these kind of activities nervous, and they should know that the media, Ukrainians, now the law enforcement agencies, are watching and they're tracking this. And I think it speaks to the kind of cooperation that's needed to really enforce the sanctions that are meant to be crushing the Russian economy and crushing the Russian military, from stopping them and these components

NK: What's your sense of things? Do you think that there's going to be similar arrests?

IM: I do, and we are hopeful, we've heard that lessons have been learned here, partnerships have been established with international law enforcement, and even amongst Canadian agencies, whether it's border services, RCMP, and it's not only Russian weapons. I mean, we're talking about North Korea and Iran, and there's many, many regimes that Canada has sanctioned where there are potential places that these kind of components have exported using these second and third-party numbered companies through pervasive tactics. So, I am hopeful that this is the beginning of more, and that we will see this as the first in a series of crackdowns.

NK: After you first flagged that Reuters reporting we were speaking about, were you checking in regularly with RCMP to find out what was going on? And if you were, what were they telling you?

IM: We have been checking with the RCMP, with Global Affairs, with other officials that we speak with, but we don't really receive those kind of updates. They don't share with us the details of what they are or are not investigating.

NK: We spoke recently about, on the program, with another guest about the surprise attack on Russia, Operation Spider's Web, and how that was carried out. The expectation was that there would be retaliation from Russia. We certainly saw that overnight. What did you make of the kind of retaliation that Ukrainians have experienced overnight at this stage of the war?

IM: Well, I don't like the word retaliation. I think this is a daily occurrence that Russia is daily bombing Ukrainians and Ukraine. Retaliation implies that there's some kind of tit for tat. Russia's invaded and consistently attacked civilians, particularly children. Ukraine is targeting military targets, and Russia is killing civilians. It's shocking how normalized and regular it's become. So, I think the Ukrainians are very used to this, they're used to living in fear, and the daily and the nightly air raid sirens. I think that it's for us in the West to be reminded that this is the regular life, the regular pattern, and that Russia has no hesitancy to kill civilians wherever they are.

NK: And as significant as an arrest like this one is, as you've been saying, Ihor, to you and many others, can it feel like enough? Can it feel anything is enough, given what you've just described?

IM: No, it's definitely not enough. I mean, it's, you know, we're talking about the allegation being that one or two components you know of a drone that ascends, you know, are made in Canada. There's hundreds of components, there's dozens of places they could have come from, so I think this is, you know, but one small step in the battle to clamp down. I mean, if Russia was unable to build these drones because the components were not available, then they would not be able to send them, you know, into Ukrainian cities. Arguably they would manufacture them themselves, although they don't necessarily have the wherewithal and the technology to do it, so they are relying on people to illegally get them these parts. But Russia has seen, they've been bringing in North Korean troops, they have no hesitancy to buy drones from Iran, so this is a terrorist regime, and they have no hesitancy to break all the rules all the time.

NK: Ihor, I appreciate your time, thank you.

IM: Thank you very much.

CH: Ihor Michalchyshyn is executive director of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. We reached him in Ottawa.

[vocalization]

World’s Smallest Violin

Guest: Naëmi Leo

CH: What's the matter -- something bothering you? Well, here's the world's tiniest violin, playing just for you. Actually, I'm afraid it can't be played. But hopefully, it will cheer you up just to hear an interview about the world's tiniest violin. And I'm sorry you're upset. This violin is laser-cut, and microscopic -- it’s smaller than a strand of human hair. And it can’t be played -- not even by a classically trained ant -- but it’s making a lot of noise in the world of nanotechnology. It was crafted using the new nanolithography at Loughborough University, which allows researchers to build this kind of teeny-tiny structure. Dr. Naëmi Leo is a research technician at Loughborough who helped lead the test project. We reached her in Trondheim, Norway.

NK: Naëmi, 35 microns by 13 microns. We don't deal in microns every day here in the As It Happens studio, but we are pretty curious. How small is that?

NAËMI LEO: It is very small. So, if you have like your hair, hair can be very thin, it can be kind of a little bit thicker, so it typically ranges from, like, 20 to 180 micrometres.

NK: It's small. It's very small. You'd need a microscope to see it. I remember first hearing this phrase about the tiniest violin, I think it was Grade 6, a sometimes prickly teacher. It wasn't directed at me, fortunately, but why did you guys decide to use this to test what you wanted to test?

NL: We got this new lithography machine, right? So, it's a nano lithography machine, very, um, modern technology. And nano means we kind of can make things, pattern them really, really small. And you can kind of do your standard tests, but we've decided to do something a bit more fun. And we had this idea that was actually the university after each person had kind of, Meg had the idea of kind of trying to pattern a violin because a violin has kind of some very fine details.

NK: It's true.

NL: Kind of really testing how small we can pattern things. And it has some larger features that are important to kind of figure out how we can kind of make those. So, we have inside material, outside material, and so, it has, like, interesting features that are kind of good to test.

NK: It wasn't because you loved that saying so much, and the show M.A.S.H, where it first debuted in the '70s?

NL: [chuckling] I have to admit, and that is really embarrassing, somebody had to explain the phrase to me. Because, of course, that's kind of some cultural background.

NK: Yes. [both chuckling].

NL: And I didn't knew the saying, I had to kind of learn it.

NK: You'll never forget the first time you learned it, yeah.

NK: So, you've described this as similar to the silk screening process or screen printing. You know, when people put patterns on a t-shirt. That's an easier way for people to visualize it because the science involved is a lot more intricate. But tell us a little bit about why you thought that was a good way to help people understand.

NL: We have a multi-step process. And the goal is obviously to pattern a violin, but we start with on what we want to pattern. So, for screen printing, it would be a t-shirt, and in the lab we use a very polished silicon chip. So, you can kind of imagine it looks a little bit like a mirror. So, it's very flat. So, the second step is having this mask layer where we can write the mask in. In screen printing, that's our screen. And for the nano fabrication we use our new tool, That is the exciting part. And it's basically a hot tip. So, it's kind of like if you have done hot ironing kind of on wood, for example, so you kind of have a hot to tip. And every time you kind of put it down, you burn a hole.

NK: The precision that has to be involved, Naëmi, in creating this image, this stencil, there's no room for error, I would imagine.

NL: Yeah, it's very precise. So, on the tool, so the nanofabrication tool, it has this tiny tip. It's very very small. We basically can move by fractions of a nanometre.

NK: The ultimate goal of something like this is not just, you know, to create the world's smallest violin, obviously. What is the hope for this kind of research and this process, in particular, nanolithography? What else would you want to make in this way?

NL: My research is about metre materials, and the idea with metre materials is that you take some base materials and you add structure to it and then it behaves differently. So, one example, you could think of a flat sheet of paper, and then you start doing some origami and you fold it up. And then, instead of having a flat and floppy sheet of paper, you now have a 3D structure that is rigid. And that, for example, if it were a bird that you folded, that it can flap its wings. So, instead of kind of having the properties of the paper, you have made something new. And if you do that on a nanoscale, you can kind of create functionalities that are very different from how the material would behave if it were like a big chunk.

NK: And how might that show up in our daily lives in the future? It already does, obviously, this kind of work, but at this level, and what you're hoping for in the future.

NL: So, I'm interested in using these nano-materials, so kind of using the processes that we developed now with the nano violin, for changing how we compute. If you were moving, for example, you're moving house, and you need to pack up everything, that is a logistics problem. So, in your household, you have a lot of different items, you have big furniture pieces, you have cushions, you have all the cutlery. And the more stuff you need to move, and the most stuff you need to pack, the more combinations there would be. And it gets very inefficient for a computer to kind of just try out each and every combinations of where things are packed. And the hope with my research is that we find ways how we can use kind of physics to kind of get algorithms that work not just in a computer program but in matter itself.

NK: And will you be, will you and the team be trying other, you know, interesting images as you continue this work?

NL: I'm kind of very excited. No, I'm really excited about doing the research. The research, the patterning for the research I want to do doesn't look as exciting because it's just simpler shapes, [both chuckle] but we now know kind of the process of how we can do that. Because it is not just writing the shapes, but of course, also transferring the material and kind of getting all of the features that they up clear in the final product.

NK: Naëmi, I thank you for your time.

NL: Thank you.

CH: Dr. Naëmi Leo is a research technician at Loughborough University. We reached her in Trondheim, Norway. And whether she knows it, Dr. Leo and her team are building on the work of tiny violin trailblazers that came before her. I mean regular-sized trailblazers of tiny violins. Including Adolf Petroza. Mr. Petroza's violin was far from microscopic. At 1-and- 3/8 inches long, it was visible to the naked eye. But unlike Dr. Leo's it was audible to the naked ear as well. In 1976, he described his creation to As It Happens guest host, Rob Parker.

SOUNDCLIP

ADOLF PETROZA: It looks just exactly like the real Stradivarius, made similar. It's made of mostly wood. And it would fit inside of a peanut.

ROB PARKER: Can you play us a note on the violin?

AP: I will try. And it is so small that it's even hard for me to hold between my thumb and forefinger, you might say, but I will try and see if we can get a sound out of it, which can be heard. It can be a heard when you hold up to your ear, but over the phone, this may not be, but I will try.

RP: Okay, well, hold it up to the phone, we will turn up the volume.

AP: Okiee dok, I'll have my wife hold up the phone here for me. Just start stroking it now. [this sounds like when you scratch a balloon].

WOMAN: Did you hear that?

RP: We sure could. Thank you very much. It sounds a little out of tune, but I suppose it's difficult to tune. What do you use for strings on the violin and on the bow?

AP: There are human hair.

RP: And on the violin as well?

AP: No, the violin, they are little steel, they're steel strings that I got off of a fishing lure that was wrapped into a cable form. And they were just small enough that I was able to use them. Otherwise, it's quite difficult to find a steel wire that small.

RP: How did you make the violin? Did you whittle it, or?

AP: Yes, I started whittling on it. And, in fact, I made about three or four before I finally got this one made. Certain parts just wouldn't, didn't materialize, you know, or I'd split something and have to start anew. And there were times when I would be looking for some little part, and it would be lost under my thumbnail. And I'd be on the floor looking for it.

CH: From our archives, that was Adolf Petroza, talking to guest host Rob Parker on As It Happens in 1976 about his tiny violin.

[toy store music]

FOA: Wild Otters

CH: A Wisconsin zoo is admitting defeat -- and calling off the search for Louie the otter. Louie and his companion Ophelia escaped during a snowstorm in March. And Ophelia was back in their enclosure less than two weeks later. But Louie has stealthily avoided recapture. In a written announcement, the zoo now explains that, quote, "Due to the length of time that Louie has been missing, we believe he has made the decision to be a wild otter." Unquote. They also say they believe he's doing just fine on his own -- despite leaving Ophelia, his “Significant Otter”, behind. Still, we're all relieved that this saga is over, and we've all got some en-closure. Except for Louie. Whose wanderlust reminded us of another otter with a lust for life -- particularly when it came to surfboards. In the summer of 2023, Otter 841 was entertaining and annoying Californians by biting, stealing, and riding on people's surfboards. Guest host Aarti Pole spoke with Jessica Fujii -- the sea otter program manager at the Monterey Bay Aquarium, where Otter 841 was raised before being released into the wild. At the time, Ms. Fujji was part of a team attempting to recapture the otter -- even though 50,000 people had signed a petition urging officials to leave 841 be.

SOUNDCLIP

JF: Yeah, this is pretty unique. So we don't really understand why. In the past, there have been other cases of interactions that were precipitated by being fed. We don't have any evidence that that happened with 841, so we really don't know why she is particularly focused on surfboards, but we are concerned about it because this is such an unusual behaviour and is demonstrating a lack of fear of people that we would expect to see in other wild otters.

AP: So, you mentioned there that it's a pretty unique behaviour. A lot of people are very delighted by it. A lot of chatter on social media. I even saw T-shirts for sale, saying, "being an otter is not a crime" T-shirt. But you want to highlight that this is potentially quite dangerous, what we're seeing with Otter. 841.

JF: Yes, absolutely. This is not a normal behaviour for sea otter. It's potentially dangerous for the otter herself, as well as for the public. Sea otters have very strong jaws intended for being able to crush their hard-shelled prey. So, if they were to bite someone, it would be a significant injury. They can also have diseases that can be passed on to people, but there's also risks to the otter herself. Being this used to people puts her at greater risk of injury.

AP: It's not really, as you've outlined here, a black-and-white issue. Can you explain again, for the people who are so adamant on their position about Otter 841 being free, why it is that your team is so strongly trying to bring her back to captivity?

JF: Yeah, I mean, we, we would very much like it if it were in the best interest of the otter and the public for her to be able to stay in the wild. That is our goal in the rehabilitation and rescue work that we do. We are taking care of these animals so that they can be released back to the wild because we know from decades of research how important they are to their ecosystem health. In this particular case, though, her behaviour, how persistent it has been, her lack of fear and potential aggression really makes it an unsafe situation for her and the public. So that's why we're working with state and federal agencies to safely capture her.

CH: From our archives, that was part of guest host Aarti Pole's conversation with Jessica Fujji, the Monterey Bay Aquarium's sea otter program manager in 2023. As of this writing, Otter 841 remains in the wild.

The AIH Transcript For June 6, 2025

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