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The AIH transcript for March 21, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Borrowing trouble. The Haskell Library straddles the Canada-U.S. border, and is a symbol of the close relationship between the two countries. But a new American crackdown has communities on both sides worried it's becoming a symbol of something else.

CH: A symbolic victory. The Sudanese army seizes back control of the presidential palace in Khartoum. That marks the end of a long campaign -- but a journalist tells us it's nowhere near the end of the civil war.

NK: A firm stand against her firm's stand. A young associate no longer wants to be associated with the prestigious law firm where she worked; she'll explain her decision to resign, after it failed to stand up to the Trump administration.

CH: Somewhere to run. As Canada waits for a federal election call, Mark Carney hasn't yet announced what riding he's chosen to run in. A data analyst tells us the new Liberal leader better choose wisely.

NK: You're all grounded. Hundreds of flights were disrupted at Heathrow Airport in London, after a power outage caused by a fire. That made things tricky for a British school principal who was scrambling to try to get 100 students home from Barcelona.

CH: And...point Geiger counter point. An Australian man thought collecting all the elements on the periodic table was a great idea -- until he was arrested for ordering some plutonium online.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio with dangerous levels of radio activity.

Part 1: Haskell Border, Paul Weiss Firm, Heathrow Closure

Haskell Border

Guest: Jody Stone

CH: The Haskell Free Library and Opera House has long been a symbol of U.S.-Canadian friendship. But now, it's more of a symbol of mutual mistrust. The library is famously situated on the border of Stanstead, Quebec and Derby Line, Vermont. A black line runs across the floor: that's the border. And for more than a century, that line was just a sort of fun illustration; Canadians could walk in to the library without showing a passport. But now, citing security concerns, U.S. Customs and Border Protection have announced plans to limit Canadians' access. Jody Stone is the Mayor of Stanstead. We reached him in Stanstead, Quebec.

NK: Mayor Stone, you share this library with Vermont. So, how is it that you could be prevented from entering it -- Canadians, at least?

JODY STONE: Because the entrance is in the U.S. It's on the American side. For the last hundred years or so, it's been accepted that we can go along the sidewalk, enter, as long as you stayed on the sidewalk, could enter to the library without having to report at the U.S. customs.

NK: So now, this change. What, what will that mean for people who want to walk into the place they've been able to walk into for so long?

JS: Well, currently, in the short-term, if you are a member -- a card-carrying member of the library -- if you bring your passport, they will continue to allow you to use the sidewalk until the 1st of October. But as of the 1st of October, the sidewalk will not, no longer be an option. So, the only other way would be to go through a border crossing and enter the U.S. into the library through the U.S. door. So, that's the problem. The solution is that the library's looking into possibly creating a new entrance for the Canadians on the Canadian side.

NK: How did you find out that this was, this is going to be happening -- that these changes were coming in?

JS: Yeah, the U.S. Border Patrol met with the library and let them know that these were the decisions they had made. And we found out just the beginning of this week.

NK: And how did you react?

JS: Well, when the library let me know, I was disappointed. Disappointed that something that's worked for us for the last 100 years no longer works.

NK: Have you spoken to your counterpart in Derby Line?

JS: I haven't spoken to the members of the Select Board yet. And it doesn't really affect them, right? They're still getting to enter the library on their side.

NK: Yeah, it doesn't affect them, but I wonder if they were, if they had any feelings about it, given the close relationship between your communities? We spoke with the senator -- Democratic senator -- from Vermont earlier this week, and he talked about that love and the connection between the communities, you know, and trying to deal with the tariff threats. I mean, with all of that, did you think, did this ever cross your mind, even with what is happening, you know, the messaging from the White House and the tariff threats, did this cross your mind that this was going to happen?

JS: Oh, it absolutely crossed our mind because a few weeks back, we had a visit, the library had a visit from Kristi Noem, which is one of the secretaries of Homeland Security, or I'm not sure of her title exactly, but she went and visited. And, and with that visit, we assumed that something else was coming down the road.

NK: Our colleague, CBC News colleague Benjamin Shingler requested a statement from U.S. Customs and Border Protection. And in that -- part of it -- they said that, because they outline these changes, that this, this was about, quote, a continued rise in illicit cross-border activity, unquote. Is there any evidence of that in Stanstead or near the library?

JS: Well, if it's, if it's related to the library, we have no, I, I've not heard of anything. They haven't mentioned it. It hasn't been raised. So, I don't know what that statement refers to.

NK: There have been cases in the Eastern Townships of, of human smuggling and, you know, concern about that. Do you think that, that this is going to quell any of that? I mean, what do you think this is about, at the end of the day? If you haven't seen any evidence of that near the library, what do you think this is about?

JS: It's about control. It's about controlling that front entrance door, and having total control of that. But at the end of the day, it's going to change absolutely nothing. Because if we, the Canadian side, have a door that the Canadians can enter and exit, Canadians and Americans will still be inside the building. So, there's no, there's no advantage, advantage to having us, force us to use the Canadian entrance.

NK: In terms of the folks who live in Derby Line and the folks who live in Stanstead, are you sensing a shift in how they feel about each other? Maybe when they come to, face-to-face in the library, even if they're not the ones making these decisions? Is, is the relationship -- the tone of that connection -- shifting?

JS: No, that, that connection is going to be there, and it's going to stay. We've, we've, we've been brought up together. It's, it's two communities, but it's one town basically. If, if the border wasn't there, you wouldn't know that it was two separate communities. The buildings are often on that line. The road is straight, straight across. So, there is no difference. The building, the looks of the buildings are similar. It was one community divided by a border. And then, as the years go on, it's getting stricter and stricter, so it's more difficult to cross that border.

NK: What is the feeling that that space has given you and others there -- up until this point?

JS: It's a pride. That the building is, it's a pride. It's pride for Stansted. If ever you have a chance to visit, I recommend it. It's such a beautiful building. The opera house is jaw-dropping. It's an awe. Like, you're amazed at this building from the outside looks smaller than when you get in the inside. It's just so much bigger. It's so impressive.

NK: Mayor Stone, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JS: Thank you very much.

CH: That was Jody Stone, the mayor of Stanstead, Quebec.

[psychedelic rock]

Paul Weiss Firm

Guest: Rachel Cohen

CH: One of America's most powerful law firms was the target of an executive order from Donald Trump. And now, it isn't a target anymore. The firm Paul Weiss has agreed to do $40 million' worth of pro bono legal work on causes supported by the administration, and to gut its internal DEI initiatives. It's one of several major legal outfits with Democratic connections that have been targeted by the president with executive orders that would restrict security clearances, and cancel federal contracts. Today in the Oval Office, President Trump took questions from reporters on the subject.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: What do you say to critics who say that your actions towards law firms are amount to coercion?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, the law firms all want to make deals. You mean, the law firms that we're going after, that went after me for four years, ruthlessly, violently, illegally. Are those the law firms you're talking about? They're not babies. A very sophisticated people. [chuckling] Those law firms did bad things, bad things. They went after me for years.

CH: Rachel Cohen was a third-year associate with another major U.S. firm -- Skadden Arps. She wrote an open letter denouncing the President's actions that has been signed by over 900 lawyers. And today, she announced that she was resigning from her position to protest her firm's failure to act in support of other firms targeted by the President. We reached her in Chicago.

NK: Rachel, you wrote, quote, I spent 30 years getting into these spaces. I do not give them up lightly, unquote. What made you decide that this was something worth resigning over?

RACHEL COHEN: It was a combination of things. This was not a split second decision, and it was certainly not my first attempt at trying to get the industry broadly to take the Trump administration's attempted coup seriously. Over the course of the last couple of weeks, I've been working along with many, many, many other large corporate law firm associates to try to pressure our partnerships to, to do something about the president's total disrespect for the rule of law, and legal norms, and legal process. No one's getting a satisfactory answer on anything.

NK: When you say a coup attempt, what do you mean by that?

RC: The president is ignoring the rule of law, and he's doing it in an all-out attack on the courts and the judiciary system. And attacks on large corporate law firms are one prong in a very, very clear attack on the one branch of government in the United States that still has the potential to hold him to account, and require that he follow the constitution and respect due process. And so, when I learned that what Paul Weiss was doing was giving him everything that he wanted and more. It made me realize that the unsatisfactory answers that I and other associates were getting across the industry from our law firms were the same answers that I am sure that Paul Weiss and Brad Karp were giving their associates prior to them finding out in The New York Times that they were capitulating to the Trump administration on everything. And I will say on the Paul Weiss DEI point, something that I think is really important that we need to be talking about is that it's not just their future hiring practices. It's allowing the Trump administration, and to evaluate their past hiring practices. And that is a massive, massive problem, particularly when you couple it with the EEOC demand letters received by 20 corporate law firms, including my own, that request personal information clearly targeted at SEO fellows and diversity scholars. The SEO fellowship is a program that is primarily aimed at people from underrepresented backgrounds. And so, letting them in to evaluate the hiring practices in the past at Paul Weiss or anywhere else, is a clear hat-tip that these firms are going to sell out their nonwhite associates. And as a white associate with a lot of agency, whose voice is listened to, I cannot sleep at night if I allow that to happen, and do not point it out as widely and as loudly as I can.

NK: In an internal email to its lawyers, the chairman of Paul Weiss, Brad Karp, and I have not seen this letter, Reuters has viewed it and reports that Karp is defending the agreement, saying it's in line with the firm's principles, including a commitment to remaining politically independent. Did this firm have a choice here? What could or should they have done legally?

RC: They did have a choice. You look at what Perkins Coie is doing. I think they're doing a very admirable job of fighting this blatantly illegal action. And William and Connolly is helping them. And I think that the way that they are fighting it, and how effectively they're fighting it, the narrative on this would be totally different if the industry was behind them. And instead, Paul Weiss and, frankly, Covington -- which is another firm that's been targeted by the Trump administration -- is showing people that there's a different option. But unfortunately, that option leads to a dictatorship and leads to immense harm, not just to associates at those law firms, but also to people across the country. Because there will not be appropriate representation and impact litigation in this country if the resources of big law are not used to back up the public interest attorneys at the front lines of those fights.

NK: You were a third-year associate at Skadden. We have not seen or heard any statements of solidarity from leaders, you know, at the highest levels at big law firms in response to this. Why don't you think they're all banding together? They have a lot of power and presence. Yes, they may be competitors in the field, but why wouldn't they get together and fight this?

RC: Lawyers are notoriously risk-averse, and high level corporate lawyers are notoriously profit-motivated. But I do have to say, as someone in this industry for, for three years with many colleagues that I like and respect, I did not think that we had this degree of capitalist cowardice in us.

NK: What do you think would stop this at this point from going beyond Paul Weiss? I know you mentioned the other firms are doing other things. But is there something at a higher level that could change the trajectory of what you're seeing so far?

RC: GCs at major companies need to start telling people that they will move their representation to Perkins Coie, to Williams and Connolly, to firms that make a statement. Because there's a lot of fear about being a first mover, a lot of fear. The industry, as, as people become more aware, the entirety of the country, the entirety of the world is watching this happen, saying, why isn't there anyone doing anything? And if you are the person that does something, that is something that will be remembered. And if you are Brad Karp and Paul Weiss, that's something that will be remembered, too.

NK: The silence and the fear you mentioned, what message does that send to the U.S. president?

RC: I think it sends the message that his coup is very close to being successful.

NK: Has anyone offered you another job yet?

RC: I have, I would say at this point, probably a couple hundred unanswered LinkedIn messages. And so, I'm hoping that there's at least one or two in there because the previews seem good. [chuckling] But I've been spending my day mostly focused on trying to make sure that people understand what's happening. So, I haven't taken a look yet. And quite frankly, after that, I'll probably take a quick vacation.

NK: Do you feel like you want to continue working in this field?

RC: I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't see a future that felt optimistic and possible. There's no point in putting yourself out there if you feel like nothing can be done. I am confident that something can be done, and there's a job for that. And there, I'm, I'm on board.

NK: Rachel, I really appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

RC: Thank you so much.

CH: Until her resignation last night, Rachel Cohen was an associate with the Skadden Arps law firm. We reached her in Chicago.

[plucked instrumental]

Heathrow Closure

Guest: Diane Compton-Belcher

CH: Heathrow is Europe's largest, busiest airport, it's not even close. So, when flights were grounded today, it was more than inconvenient -- it was temporarily catastrophic. Huge orange flames and plumes of black smoke could be seen at a power station roughly three kilometres from the airport. It took about 70 firefighters seven hours to get the blaze under control, according to the London Fire Brigade. A subsequent power outage forced the airport to shut down for hours. Heathrow has since resumed operation -- but some 1,300 flights were disrupted. Among those affected were 100 elementary-school students from Nuneaton, England, who are currently stranded in Barcelona. We reached their head teacher, Diane Compton-Belcher, in Nuneaton, England.

NK: Diane, has your phone stopped ringing yet?

DIANE COMPTON-BELCHER: It's been very busy today. It's been very busy, indeed. But it's slowly, it's, it's slowing down now.

NK: And do the students have any idea what's been going on? I mean, how are they dealing with things?

DCB: They found out around 4 this afternoon. Initially, they were, some of them were a little apprehensive, a little anxious because they were expecting to return to their parents this evening. But they're all good now. After a few hugs and some reassurance from my staff, they're a lot happier.

NK: Yeah, this is, this is a big group, a big trip for them at this age, I bet. But what about the parents? I mean, what kinds of calls were you getting from them?

DCB: As you can imagine, a lot of anxious parents this morning, but I put out the communication early on to say that I was working on the case, and that I would keep them informed throughout the day. They're, are a lot calmer now, and just looking forward to welcoming their children back.

NK: How did you initially find out about what was going on at Heathrow?

DCB: So, I got up at 4:30 this morning to attend the gym, and what I noticed when my alarm went off that I had a message from a friend that said, not sure if you've seen, Heathrow is closed. Won't be open for a good few hours. Not sure if that impacts your trip. [NK chuckles] So, I, [chuckling] I read the, I went online, I read the news, and confirmed Heathrow is closed. So, I got straight onto the British Airways website, joined an online chat with an agent at 6 this morning. They managed to speak to me, and they said I needed to communicate with group bookings instead, which didn't open until 7:30 this morning. So, there was lots of toing and throwing.

NK: In those initial moments when you read that, that first email, and then you see the images -- as we have -- of this fire, and the impact that it's, that, that it's had since, what were you saying under your breath as you look at that, those screens?

DCB: How on earth am I going to get these children home to their parents? And how am I going to get my staff back to their families? I love a challenge. But, you know, there's a challenge. And then, there was today.

NK: I know initially the students didn't know that anything had happened. They were going about their day. It's a, it's a pretty fun place to be, [chuckling] even stranded. I understand their anxiety later when they saw and learned what was happening. But how did they spend that extra time?

DCB: So, the plan was they were going to go to the beach, to the parks. They've got some beautiful parks in, within Barcelona. However, the weather wasn't kind to us. And as I was on the phone to one of my vice principals, the aquarium popped up. So, they spent the afternoon at the city's aquarium, had a great time, were completely clueless that they were going there because their flights weren't happening. And in the meantime, one of our parents phoned up and donated 1,000 pounds to cover the costs for the aquarium. Because whilst travel insurance will cover the travel and any meals or anything else needed to get the children home, what it wouldn't have covered was that extra activity. So, the parent's kindness really helped me out because it my initial thoughts were were not where am I going to find this money? My initial thoughts were, right, I need these children dry. I need them safe. I need my staff dry and safe. What am I going to do? Where can I send them?

NK: You said British Airways wasn't able to help, and that you're being bounced around. This is, I mean, any traveler who's been stuck understands that being, feeling like a ping pong ball. But you're talking about a large group, and a large group of children in another country. So, what kinds of things were you saying to them? What were they saying in response?

DCB: So initially, I said, you know, we're, we're based centrally within the U.K. We're in the middle of England. So, I was like, send me to Manchester, send me to Birmingham, send me to Bristol, I'll, send me anywhere. I will sort out the onward travel. I just want the children home. And the response was, unfortunately, we need to send you back to your original airport. And I said, well, that's not open, so that's not going to happen. So, then they said, well, we could do other airports with in London. I said, great, you can split the group across two. I don't mind, I just want the children back. And then, the response was, well, that doesn't appear to be any availability. But also, we're not allowed to book any further flights until Heathrow is back open. And then, I tried my luck again a bit later, and I phoned and spoke to someone else. Their advice this time was: I think you should show up to Barcelona airport because they have a duty to get you back. And I said, who has the duty, British Airways? And the call handler said, actually, it's the airport's duty. But in this time, I'd already spoken to several of the carriers, and they had no availability. So, even if we did show up at Barcelona airport, we couldn't get any alternative flights because there weren't any available back into the U.K. for the number of people within our party. So, that wasn't going to happen. So, third time lucky I tried, and yeah, they just said, look, you should just go ahead and find alternative arrangements. And I was like, wow.

NK: And so, when are they coming back?

DCB: Currently, on their journey from Barcelona into France, they are due to get to Calais tomorrow, mid-afternoon, and they are then going to -- once in France, in Calais, at the ferry port -- they're going to swap coaches, and join a U.K. coach company. And they're going to escort them onto the ferry and then bring them back home. So, they're due back tomorrow evening. So, a long day for everyone involved.

NK: Trips like this are obviously learning experiences, in addition to being fun for, for students, but this is another level of learning experience, I think.

DCB: This will help develop resilience. They'll always be able to recall that time they went to Barcelona. It will be one that will last them a lifetime. And we pride ourselves on making memories.

NK: Yes. [chuckling]

DCB: Not quite like this one. But you know, a memorable experience is a memorable experience. And it will be positive all the same. I've seen a video this evening of the children singing some Taylor Swift compilations, so they're all in high spirits.

NK: Well, safe travels to the students and your team, and I hope you have that drink and that rest soon, Diane. Thank you.

DCB: Thank you so much for your time.

CH: Diane Compton-Belcher is the head school teacher at Michael Drayton Junior School in Nuneaton, England.

[bluegrass folk]

Periodic Table Collector

CH: On the one hand, Emmanuel Lidden is guilty. But on the other hand: he didn't do it on purpose, exactly! He just needed some plutonium! For fun! Look: on the one hand, collecting things is a great hobby. And 24-year-old Mr. Lidden of Sydney, Australia simply decided to collect all the elements on the periodic table. On the other hand, though: how was that ever going to work? You can keep magnesium in a shoebox, I guess, but what about the gaseous elements? Do you just put a Mason jar full of xenon on your element shelf? I mean, yes, on the one hand, Mr. Lidden's lawyer says he's a "science nerd". But on the other hand, wouldn't a science nerd know that plutonium was radioactive? And that radioactivity is widely considered to be not really very good to have or be around? Well, he didn't know that, so on the one hand, you can't blame him for ordering some plutonium on the internet. But on the other hand, you also can't blame Australian police, firefighters, paramedics, and border officers for swarming his house in August, 2023, when the plutonium arrived in the mail. I mean, on the one hand, he could have been building a weapon! But on the other hand, he wasn't. He wasn't even being sneaky: his name and address were right on the package. And for innocently pursuing his hobby, he lost his job, and got arrested, and had his beloved plutonium confiscated. He's pleaded guilty, and he'll be sentenced on April 11th. And on one hand, he shouldn't have done it. But on the other hand, he's already learned his lesson -- things just got out of hand. And sure, the authorities were shocked that he ordered plutonium -- but he's already given up the element of surprise.

[ambient]

Part 2: Khartoum Reporter, Carney Riding

Khartoum Reporter

Guest: Declan Walsh

CH: In videos, you see soldiers with guns and grenade launchers. They enter a large building; you can see an ornate chandelier dangling overhead. And looking at the camera, one man declares that he's inside the palace. It's the end of a significant day in Sudan, where the army says it has re-taken control of the presidential palace in the capital, Khartoum. The news comes as the civil war between the army and the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces approaches the two-year mark. In the middle of it, are millions of civilians who've been displaced, and tens of thousands of others who have been killed. Declan Walsh is the chief Africa correspondent for The New York Times. We reached him in Khartoum.

NK: Declan, we're hearing and reading reports of periodic gunfire through the capital today. Does that line up with what you've been seeing and hearing?

DECLAN WALSH: That's right. I mean, there were dramatic scenes this morning at the presidential palace, where the Sudanese army broke through after months of fighting and finally recaptured that key symbol of power in Sudan from their rival -- the Rapid Support Forces. But then, it became clear that the fighting wasn't quite over. Even though the support forces withdrew their troops, they continued to attack that area with drones that hovered over the palace area. And at one point, opened fire, killing a Sudanese TV crew and a couple of military officers who were accompanying them.

NK: Based on what you've, you've seen as you've been in Khartoum the last little while, how does today fit into that? How does it compare to the intensity and the kind of fighting and aftermath you've seen?

DW: Well, this is the culmination of a six-month long campaign by the Sudanese military to retake the city. When the war started here almost two years ago in April 2023, the Rapid Support Forces -- the paramilitaries challenging the military for control of the country -- basically swept across almost all of it, captured nearly all of the capital, leaving the military really in just one area on the western side of the capital. And that situation continued for the first 18 months of the war, until last September, when the military started this counter-offensive. And they've been gradually pushing back ever since. They captured a number of bridges on the Nile. Then they captured these neighborhoods to the north and east of the city. And for the last weeks, they've been pushing towards the city centre. But really, with the focus on recapturing this palace because it is such an important symbol of sovereignty and legitimacy of power in Sudan, and they achieved that goal this morning.

NK: Is the battle for that palace over, though? You know, we've seen their videos, and, and their sort of declaration of that, that victory, and that, that symbolic, and that symbolic, the symbolism of the palace. But what happens next?

DW: Well, as we understand, the military is in control of the palace compound. It's a large compound. And in fact, there are two palaces. There's a, there's an old colonial era building and then a newer one that was built about 10 years ago. But the area is still not safe. The RSF maintains positions in office blocks nearby. They still obviously have drones they can fly in that area. And I guess it points to the wider question at this point, which is whether the RSF is going to continue to try to hold onto the territory it still has in the capital, or whether the army is going to succeed in pushing it out in the coming days?

NK: There's a video in, embedded into the piece that you, that you did for the New York Times. It's not all from today. And there is a, a photojournalist with you there, and it seems like you're warned about snipers. They're just 500 metres away. You also write about an army sergeant as he pears through binoculars, looking at the bombed-out presidential palace. What did he tell you earlier this week?

DW: That's right. We climbed to the top of an apartment block -- a luxury apartment block -- that was overlooking the Nile, across from the palace. We wanted to get a sense of how that battle was going on the frontline. And we met with Sudanese army snipers who were, you know, kind of had taken up a position and were peering out the windows. And they told us that they were confident that they were going to be able to move across the river into the city centre in the coming days. Indeed, that is what happened. But there was also a degree of uncertainty about what was going to come next. You know, whether they were entering into a sort of protracted urban battle for the rest of the city, or whether it would be something that will be over more swiftly. And I think that still remains an open question today.

NK: We have covered what is happening in Sudan many times on this program, and specifically the humanitarian impact -- the deep humanitarian impact -- of this conflict there. What have you seen in your most recent reporting that, that illustrates where things are in terms of, of the suffering and the humanitarian efforts there?

DW: Well, over the last 10 days, I've been traveling quite extensively in parts of the city that have been held by the Rapid Support Forces, and have recently switched hands to the army. And I got to say, I was really shocked by the extent of the devastation that we witnessed in the city. You know, there are just huge swaths of this very large city that have been completely emptied out. Where, you know, there is massive destruction. People's homes have been looted. Those areas where people have remained on, you see them often living in pretty desperate conditions. You know, what really struck me was visiting the handful of hospitals that were still operating in these areas. You had a combination of, you know, very, very poor facilities, medical staff telling these harrowing stories of how they'd been victimized by gunmen during the fighting. And then, you met some of the patients, which included people who had been very badly abused and in some cases, you know, very small children who were severely malnourished. You know, those scenes were a product of the fact that many people who were stuck in the city during the fighting found it very difficult to access basic food. And so, you know, people would say that either they weren't able to get food, or they only had access to perhaps one kind of food for months on end. And that would lead to, you know, small children getting severely malnourished, and developing or being prone to diseases like tuberculosis. And in those hospitals, some really hard scenes of malnourished children and very, very, very meager facilities to help them.

NK: Is there any sense -- Declan, at this point -- from the people you've spoken to -- the people who are in the middle of this fighting -- that there is an end in sight?

DW: Well, right now, both sides in this war appear to still believe that the solution is to continue fighting, not talking. In fact, the army chief, General Abdel Fattah al-Burhan, gave an interview or made comments today after the fall of the palace, indicating that he was not interested in talking. And he felt that they were going to press the attack on the RSF. So, you know, there, there appears to be very little space for negotiation or for diplomacy at this point. But the truth of the matter is that this isn't just up to the two warring parties here in Sudan. This has developed into a sprawling war, partly because so many foreign powers are involved, taking sides, supplying weapons to the warring parties, and really fueling the fight. When the dust settles on this present battle. I think there may be a renewed effort to try and press for some sort of a move towards, towards politics, towards diplomacy. But that will depend not just on the Sudanese parties, but also on these other countries that now have a stake in this war as well.

NK: Declan, I appreciate this. Please take care. Thank you.

DW: It was a pleasure. Thank you.

CH: New York Times correspondent, Declan Walsh, in Khartoum.

[newsy theme]

Carney Riding

Guest: Dan Arnold

CH: It's all but official that Prime Minister Mark Carney will call a federal election on Sunday. And when he does go ahead and ask the governor general to dissolve Parliament -- just a week after he was sworn in -- the campaign will commence. With the clock ticking, parties of all stripes are working to finalize their slate of candidates in all 343 ridings. As of this week, the Liberal Party has only selected 185. And the big question is still unanswered: where will Mark Carney himself run? Dan Arnold is a data analyst who worked on all three of Justin Trudeau's campaigns, and then in the Prime Minister's Office. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Dan, if you had to rate the importance of this decision -- of picking a riding for Mark Carney to run in -- one to 10, how would you rate it?

DAN ARNOLD: In the scheme of things, it's probably a two or three. You know, you don't wanna make, you don't wanna make a wrong decision. If you make a wrong decision here, it could be pretty disastrous for him that he picks a place and ends up losing his seat.

NK: So, how is that a two?! [laughing]

DA: Well, if you make a wrong decision, I don't think.,I don't think he's going to make a wrong decision because there's a lot of options on the table that would be a good fit, that he's got a pretty good chance to win. So, unless he does something incredibly wild here, I think it's, yeah, it should be an all right call for him.

NK: And in terms of timing, when do you think he might announce where he's going to, to run? We know the, the election call is expected on Sunday. Will he wrap his, his intention in there? Or will that be a separate announcement?

DA: Yeah, I'm assuming he's going to have to make an announcement sometime very soon. I would assume that he's decided by now, and it's really just coming down to a communications decision. You know, there's a lot of people that are interested in this topic. So, we'll, it will generate some news when it gets announced. And I assume the campaign is, is thinking about when they want to maximize that. It could be an okay weekend story if you're trying to get something or even on the Saturday before the rig gets dropped to kind of get a bit of news out there. So, that wouldn't surprise me. Or they might be thinking about, you know, one of the first couple of days of the campaign, doing a big announcement in the riding his running in, kind of making that a bit of a news driver out of the gate in the election campaign. But either way, I mean, we're going to know within a week in terms of where he's going.

NK: So, we've got where he was born, where he grew up, where he currently lives as options. Let's start with where he was born, Fort Smith, Northwest Territories. Do you think that that is, is actually a viable option, and one that his team would seriously be considering?

DA: Probably not. It would be the most interesting option. I mean, we've never had a prime minister from the North before. There's something a bit kind of Canadian and iconic about that. So, you know, you can romanticize these things and look at that and say, wouldn't that be really interesting? But logistically, you know, the people from the territories, they need an MP is going to be on the job 24/7, not somebody who's running the country. Because there's a lot of territory to cover for an MP. There's a lot of local issues they need to raise. Like, they need to be living there. They need to be on the ground there. And he -- if he's prime minister or opposition leader after the fact -- is not going to be that person.

NK: Then there's where he lives right now -- our nation's capital, Ottawa. We know the Liberal Party pulled MP Chandra Arya's nomination to run again there. Did that move signal to you that, that Ottawa is the place he's going to pick?

DA: Well, I mean that move certainly has got people talking in Ottawa. I never in Ottawa liked to speculate about these sort of things. [NK chuckles] And it doesn't take a lot to get them talking about these sort of rumors. So yeah, everyone I've talked to is certainly speculating about Nepean being a possibility. It's, it's not stunning that Arya was, was pulled as a candidate just because he was previously disqualified from running in the Liberal leadership race. So it would have been a little weird for the party to say you can't run to be a leader, but you can run to be an MP. So, you know, in of itself, yeah, it might just be smoke, but it has open up a seat. And, you know, unless another elected MP decides to step down and give up their seat for Carney, there really aren't a lot of options on the table for him in Ottawa.

NK: And then, of course, there is Edmonton, where Mark Carney grew up. He's been spending some time there. He spoke there yesterday. Let's play for you -- and our audience -- some of, of what he said, in fact, how he opened that news conference.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: I'm back in Edmonton. I owe everything to this city. It's where I grew up. It's the place that shaped my understanding of our great nation. It's where I was taught in the classroom, around the kitchen table, at the rink, the value of hard work, the strength of community. These are good values. These are Alberta values.

NK: A Western perspective. The party certainly needs it. A presence, not just a perspective. Do you think that hometown advantage, and the fact that he's been spending time there, not speculation, but data -- as you love data, as we know. What does that all tell you about the likelihood of Edmonton being the spot he picks?

DA: Yeah, it's, it's interesting to speculate. I mean, we've had prime ministers obviously from Alberta before, but there's never been a liberal prime minister who had a seat in Alberta. And again, I think there's a, an interesting story he could tell if he ran there. And I'm sure the campaign team has thought about that. It would carry a bit of a narrative about him as a nation builder, as somebody who has roots in other parts of the country, and they haven't shied away from leaning into that. That's where he launched his leadership campaign was in Edmonton. So, it's something he's tried to play up. And that clip you played there obviously is, again, an example of him trying to highlight that connection. The one thing missing from that clip, though, would have been, and that is why I am running in Edmonton [NK chuckles] in this election.

NK: Yeah, the timing, the fact that he's there now instead of, as you said, you know, doing a big leadership launch suggests that maybe that isn't on the table anymore.

DA: Yeah, I kind of assumed, like, had the decision been made for him to run in Edmonton. Like, yesterday would have been a perfect time to do it, right? You've got all the visuals of him on the ice with the Oilers, and, and he's there, and he's making the announcement. And that, you know, the writ's about to be dropped. Like, that feels like had they decided Edmonton was the place to go, you know, that would have been the time to really announce it. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a more high-risk option, for sure. In 2019, the Liberals lost every seat in Alberta. And if the election doesn't go great, you're taking a chance in any of the ridings there, which leads me to think that they're probably looking at safer options just given the timing.

NK: And so, does Toronto fit that bill then?

DA: Yeah. I mean, look, if you're, if you're a Liberal, there's nowhere safer. [both chuckle]Although I guess that was put to the test in a few byelections recently, so --

NK: So anything is possible

DA: Yeah. Yeah. Shouldn't take anything for granted, I guess, in that situation. But there are a couple of ridings in Toronto have opened up. Marci Ien's not running again in Toronto Centre. And Markco Mendicino just actually recently stepped down to become interim chief of staff for Mark Carney. There's, I think, a couple of other ridings missing incumbents in Toronto. So, if you're just looking for a place to plug him in, you know, it's kind of a puzzle right now if you're gonna ask who goes where. But I think Toronto would certainly be one of the possible landing spots, given that.

NK: You've been part of a, a winning Liberal campaign team. If you were on this team, what would you be focused on in this moment?

DA: Yeah, I think it is, it is, the moment is what you focus on right now. You know, there's a, there is a

moment right now with tariffs, and Trump, and everything that's going on, and the swell of Canadian nationalism. And there seems to be a perception out there that Carney is somebody who is perfectly fit for this moment, given his experience, given his background. And really, that's, I mean, I assume that's why they're calling the election right now is the kind of things are lining up. And you have take advantage of those moments when you have them.

NK: Really glad I could speak with you, Dan. Thank you.

DA: Yeah, happy to chat.

CH: Dan Arnold is Chief Strategy Officer at Pollara Strategic Insights. We reached him in Ottawa. While Mark Carney was in Edmonton this week, he didn't just skate with the Oilers and play up his hometown roots. He also met with Alberta Premier Danielle Smith to talk emissions. And it doesn't seem to have gone very wall -- because Premier Smith had some choice words about the Prime Minister after their meeting:

SOUNDCLIP

DANIELLE SMITH: Yesterday, in my discussions with the prime minister, I made it clear that Alberta will no longer tolerate an emissions cap on oil and gas, which absolutely works like a production cap that scares away billions of investment and thousands of jobs, makes us more dependent on the United States, and has been found by Ottawa's own Parliamentary Budget Office to be greatly destructive to the Canadian economy. He both told me in the meeting, and then later in his press conference with the media that same day, that he wasn't in favour of hard caps like that. He said he was interested in results, and getting projects like pipelines in the ground. And that's good because you can't fill new pipelines and cap oil production at the same time. So, the prime minister's words sounded kind of nice yesterday, until I looked at my phone right after the meeting with him and found out that his new environment minister had just told media on the other side of the country that the federal Liberals would be keeping the emissions cap in place. And this has been the same story for the last 10 years. Liberals come to Albertans, Alberta, they smile for the cameras. They tell everyone how much they're going to work with Alberta and support the energy sector. Then, they go home and proceed to do everything in their power to roadblock and scare away investment from the energy sector. And now, they're doing it when Canadians are literally demanding that we build new pipelines and production to become more independent from the United States. So, we're just asking the question of the prime minister, is he prepared to lift this destructive and unconstitutional production cap or not? Albertans and Canadians, do you want the answer before they go to the polls and not after. In fact, we'd like to have the answer today, and I hope that we know whether or not it's the prime minister's message or the environment minister's message.

CH: Alberta Premier Danielle Smith talking with reporters yesterday.

[ambient theme]

Quadball For Alexes

CH: You might assume Quadball is a pretty niche sport, in the sense that it probably doesn't ring a bell at all. and, in fact, right now you're asking yourself, "did he say 'Quadball'?" I did. And, you're right; it is niche. But it's very popular in one particular demographic. If you're a Harry Potter fan, you know that Quadball is the real-life version of Quidditch -- a fictional game played by wizards flying around on broomsticks. But in the non-flying broomstick version, a couple of Canadian Quadball players noticed a trend out on the pitch -- that a lot of players shared their name: Alex. So Alex Downey-Ging has organized an “Alex meetup” at the National Quadball championships this weekend. That move was inspired by Alex Lamoureux, who organized Alex group photos at previous tournaments.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEX LAMOUREUX: They were eight Alexes there --

ROBYN MILLER: Oh, eight. Okay!

AL: Out of about 150 people at the tournament. So, I noticed that, you know, more Alexes that there were Sarah's or Michael's, which is unusual. And I said, let's all do a photo together. And the next year, we did it, and there were even more Alexes.

ALEX DOWNEY-GING: And after the event, I was telling people about it because it was funny. And I noticed everyone I told knew an Alex. Everyone said, oh, I have a coworker, my dad, my landlord. And so, I thought, well --

RM: Yeah. My sister's named Alex, so.

ADG: Yeah, what if we open up to any Alex? Let's see how many we could get.

RM: And so, when you decided to do this meetup, like, what was behind that? Why did you want to do that?

ADG: Well, I think we were planning on doing the meetup again, as we did the last two years. And I thought, you know, let's, let's see how many Alexes there are. As well, I've seen other groups do meetups for various reasons, and often they just do it in a park, and there's nothing to actually do. Whereas we have a fun game, you know, you could, you could meet up and then watch a fun sport while you're there as well.

RM: How many people -- how many other Alexes, I should ask -- are you expecting to, to attend?

ADG: I don't know. We got some pretty good traction on Reddit. And we definitely, each of the teams, we, everyone who attended before said they'd be coming out. So, we're looking forward to see the same plus additional. [chuckling]

RM: Okay. And people will be coming from all over the place. This is national, right?

ADG: Yeah. So, we have, we have nine teams competing this weekend. The farthest, I think, is Vancouver is where they're coming from. So yeah, people from across Canada are coming.

RM: Okay. What are you hoping to, to get out of this meetup, Alex?

AL: A big group photo with all the Alexes, [ADG laughs] and I'm hoping that they stick around to watch the bronze medal game.

RM: So you can still play this game if your name is not Alex, though?

ADG: Yes.

AL: Yeah.

RM: What is your ultimate goal, I guess, heading into this competition?

ADG: I think just more friendly competition. Seeing people do their best. This is our national championship, so a lot of teams have prepared all season, and we want to see them do their best.

RM: All right. Anything to add to that?

AL: Well, I'm with the Alberta Clippers. And our goal is to win a gold medal.

RM: I guess that's the goal for everyone, right?

ADG: Yes.

RM: Gold is, gold is key.

CH: Alex Downey-Ging is the membership director for Quadball Canada. Alex Lamoureux will be playing in the National Quadball championships this weekend. And they were both speaking with Robyn Miller on Ottawa Morning.

[hip-hop]

Part 3: Greenpeace Damages, Hudson’s Bay Salon

Greenpeace Damages

Guest: Deepa Padmanabha

CH: Greenpeace is known for its opposition to fossil fuels. And this week, that opposition proved to be shockingly costly. A jury in North Dakota ordered the environmental group to pay more than $660-million USD to a pipeline company for defamation, and other claims. The case is connected to protests that happened nearly a decade ago, against the Dakota Access Pipeline. In its suit, Energy Transfer and subsidiary Dakota Access accused three Greenpeace entities of planning, organizing, and funding the protests -- and said it ran a "misinformation campaign" that cost the business time and millions of dollars. Responding to the decision, Energy Transfer said it was pleased with the outcome, but said it was really a win for the people of North Dakota who had to live through the, quote, "daily harassment and disruptions caused by the protesters." Unquote. Deepa Padmanabha is a senior legal advisor at Greenpeace USA, the entity that's been ordered to pay the bulk of the damages. We reached her in Takoma Park, Maryland.

NK: Deepa, we know an appeal is in the works. But if this judgment were to stand, what would it mean for Greenpeace USA?

DEEPA PADMANABHA: To be clear, it is no secret to the world, and certainly to Energy Transfer, that the Greenpeace entities do not have $667 million. And that was clear at the time the lawsuit was filed, that even $300 million we did not have. And so, this lawsuit was really intended to buy silence. And so, while the fight continues, you know, we still believe that the law is on her side. And so, we do not believe that we're going to be paying any sum in the near future. However, obviously, if ultimately there is a judgment, you know, that reaches that kind of figure, the entities will have to figure out what to do. And I do want to be clear about one thing. You know, Greenpeace and what it represents is bigger than just a set of entities. The work of Greenpeace will never stop.

NK: The suit accused Greenpeace -- various entities of Greenpeace, we should say -- of a, quote, unlawful and violent scheme to cause financial harm to Energy Transfer -- physical harm -- to its employees and infrastructure, and to disrupt and prevent Energy Transfer's construction of the Dakota Access Pipeline, unquote. The company's lawyers -- one of them, Trey Cox -- said, quote, Greenpeace took a small, disorganized local issue and exploited it to promote its own selfish agenda. They thought they'd never get caught, unquote. I know you and your team argued that Greenpeace played a limited role, but the jury didn't agree with you. Why don't you think they bought that?

DP: Well, let me just be clear that the evidence in this case showed none of that. What was very clear from the evidence is, one, Greenpeace's unwavering commitment to nonviolence and no property destruction. And two, a very limited involvement. This was an Indigenous-led resistance, and that was quite clear even in the presentation of Energy Transfer's case. Now, we were in a jurisdiction that had very strong feelings about the protests. I mean, that was one of the reasons why for several years we have been arguing that this was not the appropriate venue to hear this case. And so, there was a play and, frankly, a manipulation of the sentiment of the experiences and emotions that that community had. And we feel that Energy Transfer did all that it could to play into those emotions and into that sentiment.

NK: Energy Transfer's lawyer -- again, Trey Cox -- said Greenpeace paid and trained protesters, shared sensitive information, and sent lock boxes to demonstrators so people could attach themselves to equipment. Did that not happen?

DP: Greenpeace USA did send lock boxes. And I just want to be clear about what lock boxes are. Lock boxes are one of the most quintessential examples of passive resistance, of peaceful resistance. And we actually presented a lock box so that the jury could see that all it is, is it's a, it's a device that you put your hands into. It's just like locking hands. Instead of locking hands, you have a device that your arms go through so that you, you are in an incredibly vulnerable position. You cannot, there's nothing you could do that even could be perceived as violent. And there is also certainly no property damage. And so, part of our values, our inherent values, is we take accountability. We own what we do. And we feel that lock boxes, as demonstrated throughout the history of civil disobedience, nonviolence is a part of the past and the future of peaceful resistance. So yes, we did provide those. However, this idea of training and all of that, those things, you know, what the evidence actually did show is that when there was a concern of what was happening on the ground, of people getting hurt, of the massive amount of arrests and confrontations happening between law enforcement and protesters, there was a need. There was a requested need for training on de-escalation and nonviolent direct action. And Greenpeace helped support a delegation of Indigenous trainers to provide just that.

NK: The standing Rock Sioux Tribe was at the forefront of all of this. Other Indigenous communities were involved as well. The standing Rock Sioux Tribe's reservation sits near the route. How have Indigenous communities responded to this ruling?

DP: We have heard nothing but incredible solidarity. And I, you know, on behalf of Greenpeace, we express deep gratitude. Greenpeace's role is not to tell the story of Standing Rock, despite the allegations in this lawsuit. And what we saw was an absolute blatant disregard by Energy Transfer of the voices of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. You know, as allies, and as seeing how this lawsuit has unfolded, we have been really honored by the solidarity that they have shown all along the way.

NK: Some legal experts have said this is an example of, of a strategic lawsuit against public participation, or a SLAPP -- s.l.a.pp -- lawsuit they say are meant to silence critics, and create a chilling effect. You talked a little bit about that at the outset of our conversation. How does that play into the significance of this moment and this ruling at this stage for you? Because as we know, there's messaging and action coming from the U.S. administration, where other environmental groups have pointed out that they're concerned about that as well.

DP: SLAPPs are a very dangerous tool that are used by, you know, not only corporations, but, you know, frankly, by the government to really shut down dissent. And the intent is just the mere filing of these kinds of lawsuits, lawsuits that attack First Amendment-protected speech. The mere filing often has the intended impact of intimidation and of silencing. And so, what I would say in this moment, you know, yes, there was a bad verdict, but this is a really critical moment for the larger movement. We have to send a message that those considering this tactic, it doesn't matter if you win in court, there is going to be a backlash, and we are going to be united. And the truth is, is that we're we're bigger in numbers. And so, if we collectively come together in this moment, we can still send a message that these types of tactics are not going to silence.

NK: But there are those who will see these headlines, whatever happens in the future and with a potential appeal, and say this, this is a win. And to them, this signals that things that they disagree with, and the kind of protests that they disagree with is going to be off limits. What do you say to people who say that they're happy about this decision?

DP: I think it's really sad to see the manipulative narrative around the First Amendment, and what it is intended to protect. The thing about this case is it brings a lot of issues to light. Really important conversations in this moment. But I would say that, you know, the truth is on our side, justice is on our side. And I think ultimately, as this fight continues, all of that will come out and we will prevail.

NK: Deepa, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

DP: Yeah, thank you so much.

CH: Deepa Padmanabha is a senior legal advisor at Greenpeace USA. She's in Takoma Park, Maryland.

[chillhop house tour music]

SOD: ‘The Debaters’

CH: In this time of tension with the United States, a lot of Canadians are thinking and talking about the best strategy for dealing with Donald Trump's aggression -- and who's best to deal with Mr. Trump himself. Well, Steve Patterson -- host of the CBC Radio Comedy show The Debaters -- has an idea. Imagine Canada told the White House that Celine Dion was flying down to talk about tariffs. That's an offer that no sane person would ever turn down. But then, in a cunning switcheroo -- that's a fancy diplomatic term -- they actually send former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien. Here is Steve Patterson before a recent live taping of The Debaters, envisioning what that might sound like.

SOUNDCLIP

STEVE PATTERSON: [singing in a Jean Chrétien parody, to the tune of It's All Coming Back To Me Now by Celine Dion] But if you tariff our this, we're gonna tariff your that. If you keep this crap up, I'll tear off your neck fat. You say 51st state. I say nes pa part to that. I've been gone for a while, but I guess I'll come back for this. We are neighbours and friends. our two country are so tight. It was great when you left. You came back way too far-right? And if we team up with Mexico, we could squeeze U.S. right out of sight. So stop being such a baby, baby. All right.

CH: Comedian, and host of The Debaters, of course, Steve Patterson with our Sound of the Day.

[international]

Pet Pigeons

CH: Pigeons. Despite their shimmering feathers, their confident strut, and their soothing coo, some people consider them a nuisance. For example, the people in charge of keeping statues clean. But others are succumbing to their blank-eyed charms. It's become quite popular for people to adopt them as pets. Apparently, pigeons are smart birds that adapt well to being kept indoors. At least according to Gabrielle Drolet in Montreal. She's had her pigeon -- named Pidgey -- for around a year. And she told the CBC all about Pidgey the pet pigeon.

SOUNDCLIP

GABRIELLE DROLET: She is incredible. So, I got her about a year-and-a-half ago because I wanted a pet. I live alone, so I wanted something low maintenance, like not a dog, not something that, you know, you have to really give, like, a lot of energy into. And I was looking at the SPCA website, and they had these two doves, and they always have, you know, birds coming in. And they had doves and pigeons. And I looked into it because I've always loved birds. And pigeons are amazing because they're quiet, they're low maintenance, they're social. I work fully from home. So, all day long, she sits on my shoulder. We, we hang out --

SABRINA MARANDOLA: Keep each other company because okay.

GD: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, she's very social. And yeah, she over time has just become far more social. She loves to just sit on my friends' heads. She flies around the apartment. She's great.

SM: Okay, so how does a pigeon show that she's social? What does she do?

GD: Yeah. So, when I first got her and she was more nervous, she was kind of just sitting in her cage all day. I'd open the door, and she would sit in or around her cage. That was kind of it. And now, it's like I'll be sitting in the living room with friends watching TV, and immediately she flies up to the living room, she's sitting with us on the couch. She's sitting on the TV. She wants to be where the people are. She wants to explore. She wants to peck. She wants to sit on our laps. She's just very sweet. Every morning, I get up, and when I start my workday, I open her cage.

SM: So, she sleeps in her cage at night, yeah?

GD: Yeah, exactly. And she's very, you know, she has a great sleep schedule. [chuckling] She, whenever the sun sets, she goes back to her cage. Whenever the sun rises, she's awake. She's out. And so, yeah, we spend the day together. And I just, so long as she has, like, a clean cage and fresh food and fresh water, the food is just seeds --

SM: Okay.

GD: She also, she loves blackberries sometimes as a treat. But just seeds and water. I give her a little baths. I'll set out a bowl for her. She splashes around. It's great. Like, it's a very low maintenance pet. Of course, they require socialization. They require, you know, attention. But, yeah, I just, I just feed and water her, and spend time with her, and that's it. And now, everyone loves Pidgey. She, I mean, she's just, she's hard, she's hard not to like. She's just very, yeah, she's very sweet. She doesn't do much. [both laugh].

CH: That's Gabrielle Drolet speaking with the CBC's Sabrina Marandola on Let's Go.

[pop]

Hudson’s Bay Salon

Guest: John Nguyen

CH: It's a clearance sale -- on the stores themselves. Starting on Monday, the Hudson's Bay Company will start liquidating nearly all of its locations across the country. An Ontario Superior Court Judge has given the retailer permission to start selling off inventory at dozens of stores, three Saks Fifth Avenue locations and 13 Saks Off 5th shops across the country. Six stores will stay open -- for now -- including the flagship store in downtown Toronto. John Nguyen owns Hair Republic, a salon with locations inside The Bay at Ottawa’s Rideau Centre and Toronto’s Sherway Gardens. Both are now facing liquidation. We reached Mr. Nguyen in Ottawa.

NK: John, some stores, six stores are staying open, including in Toronto. But, but the locations where your salons are not part of that list. Have you had a chance to digest that news and process it?

JOHN NGUYEN: Yeah, I just cut one of that just 10 minutes ago, actually. Somebody sent me the article.

NK: And when you read it?

JN: Yeah, it's quite shocking. I don't know what to think of it right now, but I do have to have a plan moving forward, for sure.

NK: You were hopeful, it sounds like that, that your locations would be on that list.

JN: I was because of the prominence of those locations, and the fact that the retail location was owned by Hudson's Bay. So, I mean, there was a lot of speculations that some stores might stay open as a result of ownership. But as you know, the speculation minds are just opinions, right?

NK: As you think back over the months and years that you've had these salons, when did you start feeling like something was shifting?

JN: It was really early 2024 when we started noticing delayed payments. Hudson's Bay captures all of our sales and then settles with us after 30 or 45 days. So, when we didn't get paid on time, there was a bit of a red flag there, along with other operational challenges such as, you know, HVAC issues. They didn't have the music playing in the background, like, in the, in the department store. So, little things like that, that kind of was a bit of the writing on the walls. But because it was a bit surprising to me when, when we started talking about the expansion plans across the GTA, they had given us a list of several locations that they would have us potentially consider opening. And that was just a couple months ago.

NK: A couple months ago, they were talking expansion?!

JN: Yeah, exactly. January 2025. So essentially, there was a bit of a shock. So I'm just glad that I caught this, caught wind of this now before we got further into our expansion plans.

NK: What's your sense of, of why they were doing that when, you know, they were delayed payments and, and you know, they didn't even renew their, their music licensing. That's why there was no music in the stores, things large and small. So, what's your sense? I mean, why were they planning that kind of expansion?

JN: I mean, I understand why it makes sense to restructure the retail space by adding, you know, licensees like myself -- like Hair Republic -- to kind of to the, the whole shopping experience. You know, when we spoke to them in 2021, the whole objective was to create a marketplace environment. And I, and I understand that, right? Everybody's emerging from, from the pandemic a few years back, and I understand department stores are struggling the most. But if they had doubled down on making all locations the marketplace model that we're trying to achieve, then I think they would have had a good chance. And that's why I felt confident that if we continued to open stores within Hudson's Bay, that it would be a viable, you know, path for us to grow with them as well.

NK: What went wrong, do you think?

JN: I mean, this is, as a business owner ourselves, we you know, we are subject to many external factors. You know, labour shortage, economic slowdowns. I think the tariff was maybe the nail on, in the coffin for, for everybody.

NK: Tariffs.

JN: Yeah, the tariff discussions between, you know, both countries, right? So, I mean, that affects us as well. So, that's something that's always on my mind. So, I can, I can imagine what Hudson's Bay is thinking as well moving forward.

NK: And how long have you had salons in Bay locations?

JN: 2021 Was our first store, in Ottawa, the Fall of 2021. And I'm not sure if you remember, but in 2022 were subject to the, the shutdown, the convoy shut down in Ottawa, so that didn't really help our case there.

NK: It's hard to forget.

So, it's, it's always important to be agile, I would say.

NK: I appreciate your time, John. Thank you.

JN: Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you.

NK: Take care.

CH: John Nguyen is the owner of Hair Republic, a salon with locations inside The Bay at Ottawa's Rideau Centre and Toronto's Sherway Gardens. We reached him in Ottawa earlier today.

[dancehall]

FOA: Georgia Balloonist

CH: The answer, my friend, was blowing in the wind. And the question was: what is? What is that thing blowing in the wind? In recent days, a mysterious white balloon was seen floating in the skies above the U.K. attracting the attention -- and provoking the concern -- of many on the ground. Was it a weather balloon, or something pretending to be a weather balloon -- an air-quotes "weather balloon" wearing a trenchcoat and dark glasses just pretending to do weather stuff? Well, no. It was tourists who'd taken off from Germany in a balloon and were just toodling about for about 44 hours before landing near Edinburgh. And I'll stress that that was the plan: in this case, these balloonists landed in another country on purpose. But that wasn't the case for Andy Cayton. Former As It Happens host Carol Off spoke with Mr. Cayton shortly after he competed in a balloon race that began in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and -- for him -- ended more than 60 hours later in a farmer's field in Kipling, Saskatchewan. From Our Archives, here's part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDY CAYTON: So a meteorologist told us based our speed that we probably would be landed in the next morning at sunrise around Bismarck, North Dakota. But the speeds picked up considerably during the night, and we ended up arriving at the border about 4 a.m. So, we got permission to cross the border through the proper Aircraft control agencies to go into Canadian airspace at about 4 am. And then, soon as the sun came up in Canada, we decided to come down. And, and that happened to be in Saskatchewan to do a safe landing there.

CAROL OFF: [laughing] And what do, you got out of the balloon, and you headed to the first house you could find or what?

AC: Yeah. When we came out of the cloud base there, we had a real nice hay farm right in front of us. So, we decided to land there, and the only house within sight was about a mile away, and we walked up there. And that family was extremely friendly, took care of us, and fed us that morning, and let us stay in there because it was sleeting and blowing. The wind was blowing about 35 miles an hour when we landed. So, it's kind of, kind of chilly, and they were very nice, and took care of us.

CO: [laughing] Well, how did they respond when you knocked on the door and announced that you just landed in a balloon?

AC: Well, we walked up to the farm. They thought we were hunters coming to ask permission to hunt their lands is what they said. But explained what that funny thing was [CO laughs] laying way out in their field. And, and they were quite excited about it. And we were very fortunate to have such a nice family take care of us.

CO: And so, you had to just spend the day?

AC: Well, we just kind of hung out with them. And until the Royal Canadian Mounted Police showed up to investigate what the balloon was, and make sure that we weren't smugglers or something, bringing drugs into the country. They had detained our chase crew at the border until they had inspected the balloon, and then escorted them to where we were. And then the, once we packed up the balloon, they escorted this back to the border, and then they let us cross back into the U.S.

CO: [chuckling] And you're heading home with your balloon?

AC: Yeah.

CO: And you won?

AC: Yes, we won.

CO: By how much more than your secondary closest competitor.

AC: We more than doubled the second place balloon. We flew a little over 1,055 miles, I believe it was.

CO: Congratulations.

AC: Thank you.

CH: From 2007, that was balloonist Andy Cayton speaking with former As It Happens host Carol Off.

The AIH Transcript For March 21

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