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The AIH transcript for March 24, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Numbers game. Canada's next election campaign begins and the man who runs the CBC Poll Tracker breaks down the numbers for us -- and tells us what the leaders' first campaign stops tell us about how they're breaking down the numbers.

CH: Closing the books. Two libraries in Saskatoon suspend their services after a surge of overdoses. A union rep tells us staff just aren't equipped to handle the crisis.

NK: Palate cleanser. A Toronto food blogger taps into the current tension with the U.S. by highlighting Canadian cuisine -- and his picks often come with a side of controversy.

CH: Sound effects. Researchers find that common urban spiders are devising their own solution to noise pollution -- but it comes with strings attached.

NK: Don't move a muscle...car. A Winnipegger goes to Texas to buy the 1968 Dodge Charger he's dreamed of for years -- but when he tries to get it over the border, things come to a screeching halt.

CH: And...what has eight arms, several fins, and truly terrifying teeth?

NK: An octopus riding on a shark's head?

CH: That’s red…actually, yes. We'll talk to a marine ecologist who took video of the weird aquatic hitch-hiking pair she calls "Sharktopus."

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that's a total head trip.

Part 1: Election Polling, Sharktopus, “Made-In-Canada” Dishes

Election Polling

Guest: Eric Grenier

CH: It's been a busy 24 hours for the leaders of Canada's major political parties. And their itineraries say a lot about where they'll be focusing their attention over the course of this five-week election campaign.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: Oh God. Thank God I'm in St. John's. [clapping and cheering] There is no better place to start the most consequential election in our history than right here, right now.

PIERRE POILIEVRE: Who's ready to axe some taxes? Who's ready to build some homes? Who's ready to bring home the Canadian promise?

JAGMEET SINGH: This is very incredible land in the middle, you know, the community of Montreal. This should be used to build homes. Four years later, the Liberals did nothing. Nothing has been done here.

CH: Liberal Party leader Mark Carney, Conservative party leader Pierre Poilievre, and NDP leader Jagmeet Singh -- campaigning in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador; North York, Ontario; and Montreal, Quebec, respectively. All calculated choices. And the calculations are based -- in large part -- on the math of folks like Eric Grenier. Mr. Grenier runs TheWrit-dot-ca and the CBC's Poll Tracker. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Eric, we are reaching you at the start of a campaign that is certainly more competitive at this stage then, than anyone -- and you included -- were predicting just a few months ago. How much have things changed in the lead-up to this race?

ERIC GRENIER: Things have really changed dramatically. It's not very often that you have a party gaining 15 to 20 points in the run-up to an election campaign. At the beginning of the year, when Justin Trudeau resigned, the Liberals were 25 points behind the Conservatives. They're at risk of being perhaps overtaken by the NDP for second spot. And instead, what we've seen is that over the last two months, there's been a huge gain in support for the Liberals, a drop for the Conservatives, a drop for the NDP, dropped for the Bloc Québec as well. And instead of an inevitable Conservative majority victory, we're now looking at a toss-up that is surprisingly Mark Carney's campaign to lose.

NK: Do you recall seeing a swing like this before? Is there a campaign that this evokes in your mind?

EG: The nearest precedents we could probably look at would be the 1984 and 1993 elections, when there was an unpopular prime minister in place who resigned. Pierre Trudeau in '84, Brian Mulroney in 1993. A new leader comes along -- John Turner, Kim Campbell -- they get a boost in the polls. And then, of course, the campaigns go very badly for both of those leaders and they end up suffering catastrophic defeats. So, there are those examples, but that's 30 or 40 years ago, and the context is pretty different. There wasn't that volatile, unpredictable force that is Donald Trump back in those campaigns.

NK: Where all of the main party leaders chose to, to start their campaigns is certainly significant. None of this is an accident. There's strategy and calculations of play. So, I want to go through for our listeners with you each of those decisions. And we'll start with Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre. He had events yesterday in Manotick, Ontario as well as North York. And then, there was an announcement in Brampton, Ontario today. So, what does it tell you that Pierre Poilievre is beginning with a focus decidedly on Ontario.

EG: Yeah. Well, Manotick, you know, he's doing his first visit to his riding. It might be the only one he'll do during the campaign. But heading to the GTA, that is really where the Conservatives need to be spending most of their time. The Liberals have almost swept the GTA in each of the last three elections. So, the Conservatives need to pierce that, that Liberal fortress that has become the GTA. Before the polls swung, it looked like the GTA was going to go pretty blue. But now, it does look like it is going to be a battleground place for both the Liberals and the Conservatives. So, not a surprise for Pierre Poilievre to head there. I'd be surprised if he didn't head there on the first day of the campaign.

NK: The leader of the Liberal Party, Mark Carney, was in Saint John's yesterday. And then, this morning in Gander, Newfoundland and Labrador. Your poll tracker suggests, though, the Liberals are already leading, and leading by, by quite a bit in Atlantic Canada. Why do you think Mark Carney started there?

EG: That one might be a little bit more puzzling. I do think it helped him make the message today in his visit to Gander about relations with the United States. Of course, Gander being the place where planes were diverted on 9/11. The riding he did visit today, Central Newfoundland, is a Conservative riding, so they might have been playing a little bit of offence. But maybe we'll get a better idea of what Mark Carney's plans are. At first, I wouldn't have thought St. John's would have been where he'd head on the first day, but they do have to shore up those ridings in Atlantic Canada that have been, you know, one of the pillars of the, the last few Liberal governments.

NK: Jagmeet Singh and the NDP were in Ottawa and Montreal. They're set to arrive in Toronto this evening. They see projections in both provinces -- and across the country, actually -- don't paint the best of pictures for the, for the NDP. Is there any sense that they could turn that around?

EG: Well, they're going to have to because the New Democrats are in a lot of trouble. They've dropped a lot in the polls. They're right now at around 11 per cent in our poll tracker. So for Jagmeet Singh, where he goes is going to be a bit of a challenge. Because out of the three main leaders, Jagmeet Singh might at this stage be the least popular one. I think that with the NDP where they are in the polls right now, their incumbent MPs have to rely on their own name, their own profile to get themselves elected. A visit from the leader may or may not be that helpful in the current context.

NK: You've said elsewhere that polls are, quote, not necessarily supposed to tell you how to vote or who is going to win, unquote. People may be surprised to hear you, hear you say that. Tell them what our polls supposed to do?

EG: Well, polls, I think, are about understanding what's happening in a race, why parties might be promising what they're promising, who they're going after, who they're attacking. And yes, it does actually show as well, who are the front runners? Who are the, the real parties vying for government? So, if people are making their choices based on who they want to see in power, you know, then maybe polls can serve a purpose that way. But it really is just telling us how the campaign is unfolding. And I think it is one of the more objective sources of information we have. So, people should not base too much on the polls. They should not be the majority of the information people are consuming. Obviously, they need to know what the leaders are promising, who the local candidates are. The polls are fun to watch, and maybe that can get people a bit more engaged in politics. But it's not the most important thing in any campaign.

NK: Do you think this election might get more people interested, and watching, and participating? Because you've already described the kind of swings we've seen so far. It's a pivotal election wherever you sit. What are you excited for?

EG: Yeah, I do think this is going to be a campaign that people are really going to be tuned into. I think people are very politically engaged just because of what's been happening in the United States over the last little while, and we've actually seen some polling that suggests people are more interested in this campaign than they were the last one, which was, you know, in retrospect, a bit of a snoozer. This one does look like it's going to be very hotly contested. And when an election is competitive, I think it just raises the stakes for everybody. So, I'm excited to see how this is going to unfold because I was, I was ready for a campaign that was not going to have many surprises. But I guess the biggest surprise is that this campaign is going to be pretty unpredictable.

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Eric. Thank you.

EG: All right, thanks for having me.

CH: Eric Grenier runs TheWrit-dot-ca and the CBC's Poll Tracker. We reached him in Ottawa.

[indie folk]

Sharktopus

Guest: Rochelle Constantine

CH: Rochelle Constantine has seen it all: fish, other fish, weird fish, normal fish doing weird stuff. When I say she's seen it all, I mean she's seen it all in the water: she's a marine ecologist in Auckland, New Zealand. But one particular thing she's seen haunts her to this day. On a field trip, she and her team came across a shark. Normal. But when they took a closer look, they realized the shark had something else on its head -- something of a rusty orange colour. We reached Rochelle Constantine today in Auckland.

NK: Rochelle, when you when you first saw this happening, you see this shark go by, there's an orange blob [chuckling] on its head. What did you think it was?

ROCHELLE CONSTANTINE: At first, it was very clear it was a very large shark. It had a very big dorsal fin. So, that always piques our curiosity. We're quite lucky. We have quite a few sharks here, but this one was quite different. It had a really large, yeah, orangy-brown shape on its head. And sort of at first, we're like, oh, is it entangled in, you know, in a buoy, some sort of fishing gear, or something like that? Or maybe it, you know, had had an injury because injuries often have unusual colors under the water. So, that made us kind of like, well, let's, let's go ahead and check out what this is.

NK: And as you did check out what it was, what finally tipped you off that, that it wasn't a buoy or something else?

RC: Yeah. So, we, we didn't want to, you know, approach the shark, you know, too sort of suddenly. And so, we just sort of kept meandering along off to the side of it. And so, I got Wednesday, one of our technicians to, to put the drone up, and she looked over at the top of it and couldn't work out what it was. And was dropping the drone down. And at the same time, we sort of moved, you know, gently closer to the shark, and it just kept swimming gently along. And we could see these tentacles being pulled in. And yeah, someone yelled out it's an octopus. And it was at the same time that was very clear from the drawing as well. So yeah, it was just not even remotely what, what we expected [NK chuckles] was to see this very large octopus. The shark is about three metres long, and so that's a pretty big octopus perched on top of its head.

NK: And so, just hitching a ride, do you think? They're buddies?

RC: We don't know what.

NK: I mean, I'm writing so much fanfiction in my head. [both chuckle]

RC: I think, I think as long as the octopus stays away from the mako shark's mouth, they're probably definitely buddies. [chuckling] But the thing that was fascinating for us is how the shark was very, you know, calmly just moving through the waters. They often do. They're often, you know, pretty relaxed most of the time, despite what media would have you think. And the, the octopus, yeah, it was, it was definitely working to keep itself very contained on top. So, you could see, you know, a tentacle would sort of stray out every now and then, or would reach it out and then pull it back in quite quickly. And when we put the GoPro over the side as well, and the shark sort of came quite close to us at one point, that was when we were able to sort of see, you know, how big the octopus, how much space on the top it took up. How they actually found each other is, I think, the greatest mystery.

NK: Because they live in different parts of the ocean.

RC: Completely different places. Like, they, they have very different worlds. The octopus -- which is New Zealand octopus or Maori octopus -- it's the largest octopus in the Southern Hemisphere. And they live on the seabed. They, you know, they are very much live in rocky areas or move along the sand. So they're quite happy. That's their place, and everything that they need is down there. Whereas mako sharks are sort of midwater, open-water pelagic. They can dive to quite deep, but they're never at the seabed as far as we know. But who knows how these two came in contact with each other? Because they live in very different parts of the ocean.

NK: The song Part of Your World from The Little Mermaid has now been playing for the last two minutes of our conversation. [RC chuckles] I just wanted to let you know. I mean, the shark must have been aware that there was something on top of it, do you think?

RC: Yeah, absolutely. Sharks have incredibly sensitive sort of lateral line systems. So, they've got very, very, very acute sensory systems. And I've no doubt that it knew there was something plonked on top of its head. But they do often, sharks will often have remoras or a similar kind of, you know, sucker type fish attached to them at various points and different parts of the world. So, it's not completely unusual for them to have something attached to them. So, you know, some people sort of asked, why wasn't the shark freaking out [laughing] because it has a giant octopus on it.

NK: Yeah. Or trying to shake it. Yeah, shake it away.

RC: Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, it wasn't, it just clearly wasn't too bothered, but it would have known it was there.

NK: You, I know, spoke with other researchers about this, this incredible thing that you, that you all saw. Could they give you any explanation?

RC: No. [laughing]

NK: And are you okay with that? I mean, I wonder, I wonder, the mystery of it all, the fun of it all.

RC: Yeah. I think, you know, I mean, one of the, the, of course, you know, this is a science curiosity. It's, it's, you know, I'm talking to you in Canada, sitting here in Auckland, in New Zealand about this, this neat thing. And I, the reason why we, you know, chose to put this out into the world is kind of two things. One is, you know, I think we need something that's light and novel, and something people -- including us as scientists -- would never have thought could happen. And the other thing is for people to actually stop and just really think about the ocean, and how many amazing things there are in the ocean. You know, we often hear, you know, sharks are bad or, you know, sharks attacking people. There's a lot of that kind of narrative around sharks pretty much globally. And similarly with octopus, you know, they're something we eat, or they're something that sometimes you might see in a rockpool or if you're lucky -- if you're a diver -- see them on the seabed. But really, you know, the lives of these animals is so much more than how we perceive them and how they impact us. And I think that's true of everything in the ocean. I really love that all over the world and all these languages people are talking about, well, what is that? [NK chuckles] Why would they find each other? You know, what is going on?

NK: You've also, you and the team have come up with a pretty great name for what you saw.

RC: [chuckling] Yeah, it seemed appropriate. It got named almost instantly on the water -- the Sharktopus. [both laugh]

NK: You should trademark that fast. [both laugh] There's already some references to that in, in comic books perhaps, or films.

RC: Yeah, I think there is. I saw, like, we googled it just the other day, someone was asking about it. And I was like, oh, there it is. It's in a bunch of different places. Imaginations, well, it's come, come to life.

NK: Rochelle, a real pleasure. Thank you.

RC: You're welcome. Thanks for having me on.

CH: Rochelle Constantine is a marine ecologist and a professor at the University of Auckland. We reached her in Auckland, New Zealand.

[pop rock]

“Made-In-Canada” Dishes

Guest: Aashim Aggarwal

CH: True patriot love is sweeping Canada. People are buying Canadian, supporting Canadian businesses, and defending Canadian sovereignty. We've never been hungrier for Canadian content. And one Torontonian is doing his part to sate that hunger, literally. Two weeks ago, Aashim Aggarwal started highlighting iconic Canadian food.

SOUNDCLIP

AASHIM AGGARWAL: I'm eating iconic Canadian foods for 20 days straight. And Day One, I had to start with our national dish, poutine. Or should I say [poo-tin]? Day Two is the Montreal bagel. Day Three is ketchup chips and all-dressed chips.

CH: Aashim Aggarwal who posts on Instagram, under the handle, @seed.eat.repeat . We reached Mr. Aggarwal in Toronto.

NK: Aashim, I'm glad you said poutine as well as [poo-tin].

AA: I know, right? [both laugh]

NK: I mean, you're, you're heading off the criticism, trying to head off the criticism at that point. But thinking of our listeners in Quebec, or those who have Quebec in their hearts, they're never going to believe that you can get authentic poutine in Toronto.

AA: Um-hmmm. Yep, it's definitely an uphill battle to convince them, but I promise you the spot that I went to, it's a very proud Québécois man named Marc. He's very particular about his sourcing of cheese curds. I think it's, you know, the best we can do here in Toronto. I'm not going to make any claims as to how it compares to spots in Quebec, [NK chuckles] but I'm glad we have it. I'm glad we have them in the city. [chuckling]

NK: Yeah, and you're certainly not alone. You started this series on March 5th. The timing is not an accident. Why did you want to take this on?

AA: Yeah, honestly, it was a bit of a spur of the moment decision. I think we've all been more reactive than proactive, given that there's 10, 20 news items every day. And I think every day, people are evaluating what's happening with our country more broadly, and, and how it's going to affect their lives. My work has always been about highlighting small businesses, local spots, and my general focus tends to be highlighting those that are underrepresented. Essentially, what I don't see in other food media. And so, I just thought this could be a fun approach of doing the same, especially at a time where I know small businesses and all of us, really, are going to feel the pinch in some sort of way. So, I was like, at least I can highlight 20 small businesses. And, hopefully, inspire people to go look within their community.

NK: And what kind of reaction have you been getting online so far?

AA: Overall, a really great response. People have been really engaged with it, and I think people have a lot of pride and opinions, and I think that's a beautiful thing. Like, people have been engaged, and sharing their stories, and having these nuanced discussions. So, I kind of want the videos to be a little bit more of, like, a conversation starter. And, and, hopefully, kind of underlying is that pride. But then, I'm, I love when people have discussions, and debates, [NK chuckles] and I think that's what it should be. You know, it should be a discussion.

NK: Yeah, well, opinions and pride, debate and discussion certainly come into play when we, when we go through some of your picks. And at the top of that list, donair. Certainly, all of that applies to me because, and we've talked about it on the show in different iterations before, and I always feel I have to say, donair means to turn. Turkey certainly doesn't own donair, but it means the turning of the spit.

AA: Yes.

NK: And there's lots of different iterations of it, different sauces. We've talked about it, you know, on the show, as I said. But this is you covering one establishment. We're going to, we're going to listen to that now.

SOUNDCLIP

AA: This might be the most controversial Canadian food. And it all comes down to whether you like sweet meat.

NK: First of all, why is it sweet? Donair is not sweet, any donair I've had. But I do recognize that Halifax donair -- and the sauce that comes with it -- is unique to Halifax, and to Canada. So, so, tell our listeners who haven't had a chance to try it what it's all about?

AA: Yeah. So, the Halifax donair -- I think, like a lot of Canadian foods that I've ended up featuring in this -- are really a matter of immigrant communities having a certain frame of reference, or a certain dish that they're proud about, and then adapting to both local palates as well as the ingredients available. So, this is the story of a Greek man who took the gyro, which itself, you know, originates in Turkey. And he took the gyro, and he switched, for example, from lamb to beef, because locally lamb was not a particularly popular meat. And then, to cater to the local palate, he developed this sweeter donair sauce, which is evaporated or condensed milk-based, and a lot of it. [both laugh]

NK: It's popular. It's popular, for sure. Pizza also on your list; two of your 20 days are dedicated to pizza. Day Six was Hawaiian, which we've, certainly has a place in the, in the history of As it happens. Day 15 was Windsor Pizza. How do you, how did you narrow down this list, first of all, and then decide that two should be dedicated to pizza?

AA: I must say I'm a little bit biased. Pizza is my personal favourite food, has been my entire life. [NK chuckles] So, any chance I can take to eat pizza, I go for it. Hawaiian pizza, actually, another Greek man invented this in Chatham, Ontario, so that's a great story.

NK: His picture hangs in our office.

AA: I love it. I love it. Yeah, I'm a huge pineapple on pizza guy, so I am particularly proud of that one. And then Windsor-style pizza, honestly, it's totally unique. It has, like, a cornmeal crust. But I think what makes it really different is they shred the pepperoni instead of using cupped pepperoni. The idea being that you get pepperoni in every bite versus when you eat the cups, you might get --

NK: It sounds awful.

AA: Yeah, it's, it's very interesting. I still don't know how I feel about it or what I prefer. And then, they use a very specific cheese and canned mushrooms which I am converted to. I think I like canned mushrooms more.

NK: Ummm, that's a hard. That's a hard sell. But --

AA: Fair. But you got to try it. You got to try it.

NK: I would not turn, I would not turn down a slice by, by any means. You talked about the debate and the discussion, and being prepared for the response. So far, we've been able to see what looks to be your most controversial selection was on Day Nine. [AA chuckles] You're chuckling. You tried a food from Newfoundland and Labrador for the first time. And people commenting, you know, Matty Matheson, a lot of people love Matty Matheson. They know him from The Bear, as well as his restaurants. But they're pushing back some of, some of the responses, saying the one you went to is not authentic.

AA: Yeah. And I, and I totally respected that. That episode kind of exemplifies the, the challenge of the series, in that there isn't necessarily a whole lot of room for me to fly to Newfoundland, [NK laughs] and go to somebody's grandmother's house, as I've been suggested to do.

NK: Fair.

AA: And have a traditional Jiggs's dinner. I, you know, that episode was really just, hey, I have never had Jigg's dinner. This is the first restaurant in Toronto I've ever seen it on the menu. Curiosity, and also, you know, it would be great to highlight the food of Newfoundland and Labrador in some way. My main takeaway from that is I got to go to Newfoundland some day. [chuckle]

NK: Yeah, plus one for me, Aashim. I'm so glad we could speak. Thank you for this. It was fun.

AA: Thank you.

CH: Aashim Aggarwal is @seed.eat.repeat on Instagram. And we reached him in Toronto.

[chillhop]

Soundproofed Funnel-web Spider

CH: Like most city dwellers, I'm impressively resilient [NK laughs] when it comes to noise pollution. Not to brag, Nil, [NK laughs more] laughing, but I can completely block it out. I can barely hear you laughing.

[pickleball noises]

CH: It’s like I can’t even hear noise pollution at all anymore! For me, living in an urban metropolis that’s thrumming with engine noise and angry hollering is as peaceful as a bucolic countryside. It’s as serene as, as birdsong. No noise can pierce my psycho-acoustic shield. I am utterly... FOR THE LOVE OF PETE MAKE THAT UNHOLY NOISE STOP!!! [noise stops] I’m sorry about my serenity there. They just, just installed a pickleball court down the hall from the studio. [sarcastically chuckling] I haven't quite adjusted to the new neighbours yet! Anyway: researchers have found that, unlike me, funnel-web spiders are bothered by the near-constant urban noise that surrounds them. Although, from their perspective, it's not so much noise -- since they have no ears -- it's bad vibrations. Which is a problem because they rely on their hyper-sensitivity to vibrations for everything from catching food to finding a mate. Now, new research in the journal Current Biology investigated what the spiders are doing about that, by capturing them and, as I understand it, basically blaring white noise at them, or pickleball sounds. And the result was that the spiders got to work soundproofing to their webs -- building in such a way that they were less sensitive to vibrations. Now, the downside is that that adaptation also hampers their ability to nab their food and get busy with mates. But apparently, they consider the tradeoff worthwhile. And, when you think about it, that really speaks volume.

[instrumental]

Part 2: SASK Library Closures, Best Invertebrate Contest

SASK Library Closures

Guest: Cara Stelmaschuk

CH: In Saskatoon, the overdose crisis isn't just overwhelming. It's exhausting. The Prairie city is struggling to deal with a spike in overdoses. Here's how Saskatoon firefighter, Jayden Poirier, described the situation to As it Happens, earlier this month:

SOUNDCLIP

JAYDEN POIRIER: When I started as a firefighter about 15 years ago, we would maybe do one or two of these a year, you know, throughout the department I was with. And now, we're doing between 15 and 20 of these overdoses every single day.

CH: Mr. Poirier also talked about the burnout that a lot of first responders in the Saskatoon area are experiencing because of the tainted drug supply -- which is leaving organizations overwhelmed, and understaffed. Last week, the only supervised consumption site in Saskatoon temporarily shut its doors because of staff exhaustion. And the crisis isn't just affecting frontline workers. The Saskatoon Public library has also temporarily closed two locations because of safety concerns. Cara Stelmaschuk is a staff representative for the Canadian Union of Public Employees, which represents library workers. We reached her in Saskatoon.

NK: Cara has Saskatoon had to do something like this before -- to close libraries?

CARA STELMASCHUK: I know that previously, the libraries have adjusted hours to, you know, to, to really reflect what's been going on in their neighbourhoods. So, not extending their hours past a certain time in the evening. That is definitely a measure that's been taken. Completely closing the library to the public, I believe, is brand new since COVID. So, it's, it's a noteworthy thing to have happened, that's for sure.

NK: Yeah. And a difficult decision, I would imagine, for the librarians, you know, and, and the people you represent.

CS: Oh, absolutely. You know, library workers are really connected to communities. They, they have people that they meet almost every day, every week. They have people they support, that they help. Lots of community groups also use the libraries for their programing. And it's a safe place for people to go a lot of the time. So, them being closed is, is really hard to get used to. But at the same time, they've seen an increase in some really, really troubling events. So, this is, this is a break to just readjust and have, have, have a bit of a breather before, before the doors open again.

NK: What was the moment that they came to this decision? I mean, to go from, okay, we won't extend our hours past a certain point to now shutting down temporarily. That's a, that's a big step. So, what happened that, that made them believe that, that a temporary shutdown was the right move?

CS: Recently, there has been an increase in overdoses. So, there is a supply of drugs that have come on to the streets of Saskatoon that are, they're calling it a poisoned supply. So, it's, it's definitely concerning. And all of a sudden, I remember I was in one meeting with the executive members of my local CUPE 2669, and they were just discussing how this last week they'd had four incidences where they had people that weren't sleeping, and that they couldn't wake up. So, something has hit the streets that's making it that much more dangerous. And there are some pretty severe overdoses happening. There's also a safe consumption site that's downtown Saskatoon called Prairie Harm Reduction. And they've seen such an increase in overdoses and deaths that they've actually closed their doors, just to give their staff time to process what they've been seeing, to seek a little bit of professional help because it's upsetting. They are seeing some really, really dark times. And when those kinds of folks are also shutting it down just to take a breath from it, that, that's concerning. That's a really, really scary development.

NK: But then what does that mean for, for people who access these spaces?

CS: That means that they have to find another way to need what, you know, to find what they need. Like I said, when the professionals who, who want to do the work, and want to do the help can't keep up, It's definitely a sign that something really, really bad is happening, and the system somewhere is fractured.

NK: And you mentioned, you know, the librarians. What kinds of specific details have they shared with you about how their jobs have changed in the midst of this crisis? Because it's not just, I would imagine, letting people in to, to, to use the restroom, or to warm up. you know, what are they dealing with?

CS: They are just seeing a pretty brazen array of behaviour. So, they've got drug deals that are just happening right out on the main floor. Not even outside the door. They're in the library, in plain sight for people to see, in front of other patrons, in front of the library employees. It's just happening. And when, you know, consulted or challenged on it, these people get aggressive. They are verbally and physically intimidating towards the staff, towards the patrons, and it becomes a very unsafe situation for everybody. There's also the use of drugs happening within the library. Wherever people can find a quiet corner, It is, it is happening. And if they can get into a bathroom, then usually the librarian finds out about it because a patron has come to them saying, we're waiting to use the washroom. Someone's been in there a long time, we don't know what's going on. And then, it becomes a concern that somebody is hurt inside or unable to wake up.

NK: How are other people who use the library reacting to, I mean, there's that reality that they also see, maybe not in the same frontline way that the library workers do, but, but now that to have these closures, how are they reacting?

CS: I don't doubt that even before this, there were people who were just avoiding those particular branches. But if you live in that neighbourhood, and you don't have the means to drive to another library, you know, this is where you can access books, and DVDs, and all those niceties of life that no one's actually paid for.

NK: They’re crucial for people.

CS: Absolutely. So, it's going to, it's going to affect them to have those places closed. But at the same time, I'm sure anybody there on a regular basis has seen something that they, you know, never thought they would see at a library. Like I said, that there are patrons who have seen this behaviour, and have had these people act aggressively towards them as well. But then you have a library worker trying to get in front of that situation and make sure that the patrons are safe. And it's not a great situation for people who are, they work in a library. [chuckling] Like, they just want to make sure people can find the materials they want, and that they have help when they need it, and that they have a nice, safe place to go. And it's, it's a certain element that is seeing that as a vulnerability and they're exploiting it.

NK: The two libraries are set to, to reopen for regular service, at this point, on April 21st. So, people who live there can look forward to that. But what would you like to see happen or change so that the libraries don't have to close again temporarily? There are different ideas about how to deal with this crisis, and help people who need help, but also that people access the services that they need to access. So, what would you like to see personally?

CS: So, we're seeing a shortage of, you know, temporary spaces and shelters for the unhoused. We're seeing that there's not enough support for addiction services. We're not seeing enough supports for people who are in a mental health crisis. That all ends up out on the street and there's nowhere else to go. And that's that's just, that's just the truth of the matter. There is nowhere else for these people to go. So, they do find themselves a lot of the time walking through an open door into a warm building. Or at least they can use the bathroom because that's just a humanity thing. There's no easy answers, I guess. [laughing]

NK: I think that's the one thing everyone agrees on as they try to, try to help. Cara, thank you for your time, I appreciate it.

CS: No, thank you so much.

CH: Cara Stelmaschuk is a staff rep for the Canadian Union of Public Employees. We reached her in Saskatoon.

[electronic]

Accessible Fishing

CH: It's an award that recognizes people who are making tourism more inclusive and accessible. And earlier this month, the Tourism Industry Association of British Columbia announced that Reel North Adventures had won it. It's a fishing charter business based in Prince George. Jerry Doust is the owner and head guide. In an interview with the CBC this morning, he talked about doing a review of his business, and seeing a gap in the service he was providing to people who use wheelchairs or have mobility issues. So, he got to work on a new boat.

SOUNDCLIP

JERRY DOUST: First thing was to kind of go over what are all the things, the accessible features that the boats, the boat needs. And then the first thing we did was look at, okay, Is there anything out there? And so, scoured the internet, but there was nothing out there in B.C., in Canada You could just by that already had these features built in, or that were easy to add. So, then we had to look at fabricating something from scratch. So, we worked with a few companies, got some preliminary, you know, designs back. And it was good. We were looking at more of a hydraulic front-loading boat that, you know, would drop down on a platform and you could just go in. But then, we kind of went away from that because we didn't want to beef up the accessibility features so much to the point where we diluted the fishing experience. So, that's what led us to one of the hunting utility craft designs from Crest Liner that, that kind of just was built for hunters. But it, it, it has all of the accessible features that are not, shouldn’t say all, but a lot of them already built into the boat. So, we ended up just buying that boat as the base hull, and then getting CC Industries in Prince George, which was amazing to work with, a fabrication company that came up with a custom rail system and ramp system that we added to the boat and modified it. And now, we've got a boat that not only has all the accessible features to do a front load and a side load for someone who uses a wheelchair, but it also has a casting deck, and it allows anyone that's on board to not just fish, but do all the methods and techniques. So, you can get up on the casting deck, fly fish, throw crankbaits, bait cast, spinfishing, all the different methods and techniques are very easy for someone to do on the boat.

SHELLEY JOYCE: Well, it sounds fantastic. Has anybody who uses a wheelchair, have they had the chance to go fishing yet?

JD: Yeah, we did about three trips last year. We're kind of excited, you know, see what the upper limits of the boat's capabilities are. And we were able to comfortably have two people who use wheelchairs in the boat at the same time, with three additional guests and myself as the captain. So, it's a very roomy boat that's rated up to seven individuals.

SJ: What did they say?

JD: Oh, they loved it. It was, It was a pretty emotional day, I'll be honest. Especially for me. Like, it just, you know, seeing someone just have the opportunity to kind of go fishing, and just be able to do it in a way that, that I think was, wasn't for, like, previously available, that type of experience. And so, it was pretty emotional day. But yeah, they had really great things to say. And, and, hopefully, this sparks other businesses and other guides in the industry to, you know, look at their services and see what they can do about them. If anyone’s out there, you know, listening, You know, the conceptual plans that we came up with, Like, there's nothing proprietary about them. I'd be more than happy if they email us, so I can email them the PDF of the plan so that they can use them and adapt them as they need to.

CH: That was Jerry Doust, the owner of Reel North Adventures, talking to Shelley Joyce, the host of Daybreak Kamloops.

[ambient]

CH: Alberta Premier Danielle Smith talking with reporters yesterday.

[ambient theme[

Best Invertebrate Contest

Guest: Patrick Barkham

CH: The eyes of the nation are on Ottawa this week, as a federal election gets underway. But another much-anticipated contest is unfolding too. And many eyes will be on its winner....which may, itself, have many eyes. For the second year in a row, The Guardian is running an "invertebrate of the year" competition. And this time, it's global. Last year's winner was none other than the noble earthworm. And so far, this year's victor seems liable to be a bit more colourful -- albeit no less overlooked. Patrick Barkham is a natural history writer and the architect of the Guardian's contest. We reached him in Norfolk, England.

NK: Patrick, the word spineless is certainly not a term of endearment, particularly if you're lobbing it in an argument, as some may have. [chuckling] But for invertebrates, it's another story. What does that word evoke for you?

NK: So, you unveiled this year's competition a few weeks ago. You've been accepting submissions, and you've put together a shortlist that's, that's going to be unveiled this week and next. Tell us about today's offering.

PB: Today is, the first on the shortlist is fairly gruesome. It's the tongue-biting louse. [NK chuckles] And this is an incredible little crustacean that finds a fish, it burrows in through the gills, and then bites away the fish's tongue and clings to what's left of the stump. And it then takes on the role of tongue of the fish, basically. And eats a load of what the fish eats, but shares enough to enable the fish to carry on living. And the fish can stay alive for years in this way. I mean, it's, it's the stuff of horror films, and actually did inspire a horror film. So, it's gruesome but ingenious.

NK: That horror film was The Bay, for anyone, our producer, Chloe, pulled that up for anyone who wants to take a closer look at. At the tongue-biting louse, and the horror movie that, that it inspired. And is that why it made it to the Top 10 -- the ingenious part?

PB: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's it's amazing the niches that all these little invertebrates find, different ways of making a living on Earth. The second, actually, on our shortlist is, is found all over Canada. And that's Bombylius major -- the dark-edged bee fly.

NK: Oh, that sounds sinister also. [chuckling]

PB: Yes. Well, this one absolutely is a, is a sinister one, Nil, you're dead right. It hums like a bee, pollinates flowers like a bee, and it's cute and fluffy like a bee. But it's a fly. And it lays its eggs around where solitary bees nest, and its larvae eat the solitary bee babies, basically. So, it's another devious, cunning creature, [NK chuckles] but wonderful, you know, beautiful, attractive, dynamic-looking insect. And it also, the females twerk. They, they do this amazing twerking maneuver to gather up sand, [NK laughs] which they then coat that, the eggs, the eggs with to better camouflage their eggs.

NK: Were most of the people, Patrick, scientists who wrote to you, or are there gardeners and others who reached out as well? It was a real mix.

PB: It was a real mix, yeah. And we had very, you know, people who know next nothing about insects but wanted just to nominate the cicada they hear from their porch. There were plenty of sort of funny nominations. Some scientists nominated the species that they had themselves discovered, but equally, there were lots of ordinary people, too, nominating things that just enrich their lives or make them feel happy.

NK: And is there, is there one creature that didn't make the list that, that you think deserves an honourable mention in this conversation?

PB: Oh golly, there were so many. But one interesting theme, actually, this year was that lots of people nominated very resilient, small animals. And I feel like in times of global turmoil, we're sort of drawing comfort from seeing resilience in other small, apparently powerless creatures. Because so many of us feel powerless at this moment in time. And there was a brilliant nomination for a creature called the scaly-footed snail, which lives in volcanic vents, and makes its shell out of iron. And even protects its, you know, snails have this lovely soft foot, this soft inside, and even protects that with iron plates. And one of our readers said, you're not going to get a more hardcore nomination.

NK: Is there one that came up over and over again?

PB: There were a surprising number of backers for the tardigrades. And the tardigrades are these multi-segmented microanimals, and they've been nicknamed water bears and moss pigs because if you look at them under a microscope, they look incredibly cute. And they live on damp moss, they mostly live in water. And tardigrades as a, as a group of species have survived five great extinction events, and individual tardigrades. And so one does make the shortlist -- Milnesium tardigradum -- and that survived being put in outer space. Interestingly, one of our Canadian readers nominated a species that has made our shortlist, and she's a scientist and a sci-fi writer herself. And, and she nominated the common rotifer, which is another microscopic animal, and it's all female. And it's got along very well without men for millions of years, so. [both chuckling]

NK: There will be fans of that, for sure. The earthworm was the winner last year. Is it, I mean, that's pretty simple. I mean, they deserve credit, perhaps, but what's your sense of how this year's going to go?

PB: Well, I was surprised at the outpouring of love for the common earthworm last year. But I do think readers seem to be, or people in general, seem very drawn towards insects that are useful, and sort of maybe unsung heroes, you know, and perform all these important tasks. I suspect the really gruesome ones, the tongue-biting louse and so forth, won't triumph in the end. I think it will be a more useful creature, but I do quite fancy the tardigrades this year, I think.

NK: Not that you want to tip the scales, Patrick. I mean. [laughing]

PB: We have to stay neutral. I'm very neutral. And honestly, I will be delighted if any of these creatures win. They are very worthy animals, all of them.

NK: I'm glad we could speak, Patrick. Thank you.

PB: Thanks for your time.

CH: Patrick Barkham is a natural history writer with The Guardian. We reached him in Norfolk, England.

[electronic]

WPG Border Tariffs

CH: It was a dream come true, until it wasn't. Seventy-seven-year-old Winnipegger Pat Fletcher found a car he'd been after for years: a pristine 1968 Dodge Charger RT. It was in Texas. But bringing that muscle car home turned out to be more challenging than he'd expected - thanks to recent changes he discovered when he arrived at the border.

SOUNDCLIP

PAT FLETCHER: We pulled over to the side, and we came inside. We sat down, and they were taken about a half-an-hour, and they're all talking, sharing, looking through all these books and manuals, and they didn't, it's like they didn't know what was going on. And then, they finally came up to me, showed me a piece of paper with $46,636.49.

MARCY MARKUSA: Which, by the way, is 50 per cent of what you paid for the car. I just want to point that out as people are following percentages, okay. And what was your reaction to that?

PF: You know, I don't know how to describe it. I thought it was a joke. Actually, my daughter and I thought they were kidding, you know? And then, when we realized they're serious, I, I started to nauseous and shake. And I went and threw up in the bathroom. My daughter took over talking to them because I couldn't even talk to them, you know?

MM: Oh, Pat.

PF: It was terrible.

MM: I'm so sorry. So, you have this huge financial shock, you're sitting there.

PF: Yeah.

MM: How did they explain what this, what this amount of money owed was about?

PF: Well, was all the tariffs, eh? And, and then, because they were, you know, all the border guards in Canada and the U.S. were so good. They were on my side completely. They wanted me to get that car home. I had to get to my pills because it was supposed to be just like an hour-long drive each way. You know, pick up your car and, you know, and it just turned out to be a nightmare. And they said, you know, he did say, like, you don't have to do this, but I would advise you to take your car back to the American side, you know, and --

MM: Store it, or park it, or, yeah, figure this out. So, we heard on the news that after all of this turmoil, to say the least, for you and your family, obviously then you're in the States a little longer. Your car is still in the States. It's in North Dakota. Is that right?

PF: Yeah. Yeah. Right now, I'm just waiting for these stupid tariffs to drop. You know, I, I know Trump's an idiot and all that, and, and they, Trump isn't, they don't hurt the classic cars. They don't charge them anything, any, any kind of cheaper insurance.

MM: So, you're waiting for the tariffs to hopefully --

PF: Yeah, I'm kind of waiting for them to come down or --

MM: This is, this is not something you can get a refund on, by the way, right? It's not like you're going back. So, what is your message to other people who are listening to your story this morning, Pat?

PF: I want, that's why I wanted this on here. You know, I've been on TV too, and I say get it, you know, be careful. You know, this can happen to you. And since that, I've had about 12 people call me all over Canada in the same position. And so,

PF: I just want everybody to don't have what happened to me. It's a nightmare.

CH: Pat Fletcher talking to Marcy Markusa today on Information Radio in Winnipeg.

[acoustic guitar]

Part 3: Turkey Protests, Canadian Pacific Return

Turkey Protests

Guest: Asli Aydintasbas

CH: The protests in Turkey have entered their sixth day. And they only seem to be gaining momentum. The demonstrations have been held across the country since Istanbul mayor Ekrem Imamoğlu was detained last week on corruption charges. As we told you on Wednesday, Mr. Imamoğlu is a key political rival of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. He maintains that the charges against him are politically motivated. Yesterday, a Turkish court decided to jail him -- further inflaming the protesters. Hundreds of whom have been detained since the demonstrations began. Asli Aydintasbas is an expert in Turkish politics, and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution. We reached her in Washington. D.C.

NK: Asli, these, these protests are certainly of note. They are large, people are once again defying bans on protesting. But we've also seen that before in the past, people who are upset, and, and want to see a change in government. What -- if anything -- is different this time?

ASLI AYDINTASBAS: I think the difference now is that we see bigger crowds, for sure. And also maybe a larger cross-section of Turkish society. Now, Turks are not really people who take to demonstrations. That is because the country has had three coups and bouts of autocracy in the past. So, people are trained for self-preservation. But I think young people are out on the streets. Conservatives are out on the streets. It is clear that the Imamoğlu decision has struck a chord in Turkish society. And is considered deeply, deeply unfair. Main opposition CHP held a primary this past week where 13 million Turkish citizens went out and designated Ekrem Imamoğlu -- the mayor of Istanbul -- as their presidential candidate.

NK: And they're not all members of the, they're not all card carrying members of the CHP, right?

AA: They're not at all. I think the party has 1.5 million membership, but they opened it up to ordinary citizens. And so, people have turned up to vote. And in scenes that look like huge lines.

NK: You shared a video on social media and called it a, quote, huge act of resistance of, of one of the scenes you were describing there, not the protests, but the throngs of people who, who turned out to to try to cast a ballot in the primary for the, for the presidential race. But to remind our listeners, that race is not scheduled until 2028. When I spoke last week with the deputy chairman of the CHP, Ilhan Uzgel, he and others agree with him that, that the timing of this is about Erdoğan's political goals around that election. But, but you have a different view, or another idea of why this is happening now. And that has to do with what's happening around the world.

AA: Yes, I think that would, particularly with the inauguration of President Trump here in the United States, there is a different geopolitical climate with the two wars going on -- one in the Middle East, one in Europe. I think that countries are transitioning to a different world, a different world order, one in which values and alliances matter less. It's more of a hard-nosed transactionalism. It's about sort of give and take among great powers. All of this is creating a very permissive international climate. And sure enough, we have not seen much of an international reaction from European leaders or U.S. leadership.

NK: So, without that kind of international reaction, and keeping in mind, you know, the, the protests were by and large, very, very peaceful. And I saw lots of young people, as you've said, posting on social media about their, their hopes and wants through these protests. But there was also tear gas in response, arrests of hundreds and hundreds of people, several journalists among them. Again, those are things that we've seen in protests in Turkey before. But what do you see as the next step? What will happen next, do you think?

AA: Nil, there's always a dilemma about taking to the streets. So, this is going to be a huge dilemma for the opposition party. And how they navigate this process from this point on will be tricky. On the one hand, younger people want to get out, get protests, get out, be out on the streets. On the other hand, party leaders that I have spoken to know that street demonstrations can easily be manipulated, that the government has this enormous influence over, over mainstream media. And it wouldn't take too much for them to start painting street demonstrations as vandalism, and sort of stories that we've seen during the Gezi protests in Turkey in 2013. So, I think the main opposition party will be a little cautious in maintaining this for weeks. I think they will, they're thinking of what to do. Is it economic boycott? Is it sort of retreating for now? But it is a tricky, tricky situation. And on the other side, the prosecutors will have to produce an indictment. And probably, it's not going to be earlier than three or four months. It never is in Turkey.

NK: Do you think, though, that it will get to that stage? Or do you imagine a scenario where Ekrem Imamoğlu actually is released and runs?

AA: I don't. Let me interrupt you. I don't. I'm sorry to be saying this, but I don't imagine a scenario in which he could be released. He could be release if street demonstrations are sort of massive and paralyzing enough for the government. But, you know, Turkey is a very difficult place to have street demonstrations. Law enforcement forces do have means of crushing demonstrations, and I think they will use it. I think we're probably realistically looking into a situation in which he will see the next election behind bars. And at least that seems to be the plan.

NK: We're talking about those, and there are millions of people who oppose Erdoğan, certainly. But we also know that there is support for Erdogan. I mean, we saw even after the earthquakes and even after political unrest and protests, but it can be hard to gauge just how much support there is. You mentioned the shift in the types of protesters and who is in the streets. What do we know about the level of support for Erdoğan and his government today compared to the beginning of his time?

AA: President Erdoğan is certainly very popular. He has his own base, which has been shrinking, but he still maintains a sizable majority. But then something else started happening. With the downturn in Turkey's economy, and the transition to a younger generation of opposition leaders, not just Imamoğlu, but also the new head of CHP, other mayors, what we've started seeing is that the opposition is doing much better than the governing party in poll after poll. So, I think that is certainly a worrisome sign for President Erdoğan. And younger people want to have different alternatives.

NK: Asli, I appreciate your time, as always. Thank you for this.

AA: Thank you, Nil.

CH: Asli Aydintasbas is an expert in Turkish politics and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution. We reached her in Washington. D.C.

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Seed Library

CH: Usually, banks don't give anything out for free -- even if it's the stuff you put in the bank. But one bank in Morin-Heights, Quebec does. This year, the city's library is starting a new "seed bank". It allows people to choose seeds from more than 40 varieties of fruits, herbs, vegetables, or flowers -- for free. And if all goes according to plan, those people will bring seeds back in the fall. Sandrine Gamache is the coordinator of the library; she told the CBC about how the project is going.

SOUNDCLIP

SANDRINE GAMACHE: It's a free service where one can borrow vegetable, fruit, herb, or flower seed. And essentially, they plant them, they harvest them come autumn, and then they save the seed from what they harvest to bring back to the library. And with that, we can save those for next year. We can see what's popular. We can reorient based on what the community likes, what the program will develop as we, do we go further into flowers? Do we go further into a wide variety of tomatoes, for example? So, it's, it's turned out very popular, and we're pretty happy about it. And honestly, we have only 10 different varieties left, so.

SEAN HENRY: They went quickly.

SG: Yeah, really quickly. We're so happy. We're a bit surprised, honestly. We, we didn't know it would be so popular.

SH: You said that they went pretty quickly. We're the 24th of March; you started in March. What do you have left?

SG: Oh, not much. [both chuckle] We have some bell peppers, some tomatoes because we made sure to have lots of these. We are all out of herbs. We have some bits of flowers left because some people, they brought us their own seeds that they saved. So, we have some more to offer, but we are nearly all out.

SH: Wow, okay! What went the quickest?

SG: I think it's the chili peppers, some ornamental flowers, surprisingly, some less lovely flowers to look at. Some things that looked more like weed. Milkweed was very popular this year. It's good for the butterflies and other pollinators. Some herbs in general. Yeah, It's a pretty varied demand, I would say.

SH: Sure. What's the plan for collecting the seeds at the end of the season?

SG: People are encouraged to gather their seeds, and then they bring it back to the library, where we will sort through them. So, all the bell paper go together based on what the variety that they are. Those that are unknown, we'll try to gather as much information as possible from the patron that brought it back. And then, we store everything until next year, where we will get some information ready so people know what to do to prepare, and harvest, and cultivate them.

CH: Coordinator of the Morin-Heights Library, Sandrine Gamache, talking to Sean Henry, the host of Daybreak, today.

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Canadian Pacific Return

Guest: Steve Wilson

CH: From Thomas the Tank Engine to Henry Potter, the -- pardon? sorry, to Harry Potter, Britain's love of steam engines is real, and deep. And it goes back a long way. Which is why aficionados in Britain are especially excited this week about the return of a 1940's steam train: the 'Canadian Pacific'. That train played an important role during the Second World War, delivering soldiers to the south coast of England. For 14 years, volunteers have been "reconditioning" it. And yesterday, many of them stepped aboard the finished train for a ride. Steve Wilson is one of those volunteers. His parents worked for the railway company before the war. We reached him in Christchurch, England.

NK: Steve, taking a trip is always exciting. Taking a train trip, equally so. But this has another layer of importance, so many reasons for you why this is special. What was it like yesterday when, when the train started moving?

STEVE WILSON: Oh, absolutely brilliant. In fact, I've had the privilege of riding on the footplate of the loco, which is really rather special.

NK: Why? And what is, what is being on the footplate, what does that mean to you?

SW: Oh, well, you're right at the heart of what the loco is doing. You can see what's happening. And, yeah, I mean, I'm not a qualified driver, [NK chuckles] but a lot of us -- well, nearly all of us now -- who have worked on the locomotive and all the restoration during, its been going through a running-in period of a couple of weeks without its nameplates on and things, but we've all had a chance to have a ride out on it, which is rather good.

NK: Can you help our listeners, Steve, visualize this train?

SW: All right. Well, it's, it's a large steam locomotive. It's a beautiful shade of dark green, which they all were. Not in wartime but in peacetime. They were this gorgeous dark green.

NK: Have you always loved trains?

SW: Oh goodness me, yes. Well, my parents both worked in the Eastleigh Locomotive Works near Southampton before the Second World War. At the outbreak of war, my dad signed up with the Royal Engineers, and went off and helped the Japanese build a rather less pleasant railway in Burma. But Mum worked out of the Works right the way through the war as a machinist, making parts for the locomotives. Inevitably, she would have made parts for the Canadian Pacific when she was first built.

NK: And that's part of the deep connection for you for, for this project. And then, all of the years you and the other volunteers spent restoring it, reconditioning it. What did that involve?

SW: Oh, just about everything. When we first started, it was rusty. It was just very worn out. The pistons and everything were completely worn, and letting steam past. And the boiler was in a terrible state.

NK: What is it that you love so much about locomotives -- and this locomotive in particular?

SW: Well, several things. When I was, I was born just after the Second World War, when my father got back. And by the early 1950s -- I was aged about five or six -- I was being taken to the Locomotive Works open days, which they used to have each summer. So by that age, I was walking down to that shed and seeing all those locomotives in there being worked on, and that was they way I was hooked. So, that was steam trains in general. And I then worked as one of the small boys on Southampton Station collecting engine numbers with notebooks. [chuckling] a bit nearer now, I've also driven and fired Canadian Pacific. I'm actually, I'm actually a university lecturer. And in 2008, I retired from full-time work and went part-time, which gave me some time to go to the railway. And also, my colleagues bought me a present, which was to drive and fire a locomotive at the Watercress. And when I turned up, standing on the platform waiting to see what engine we'd got, under the bridge came Canadian Pacific. So, I've actually driven it the length of the line and fired it back.

NK: Oh wow! And what does it feel like to be standing there and doing that?

SW: Oh, it's just, it's something else. It's, you can't really describe it. A steam engine is an amazing thing. It really is a living creature. And you've got to be nice to it. So, if you do the wrong things, if you put too much power on, the driving will slip and spin. And that's not good. That's not good for anything. And it just got, it's got a life of its own. You got to get the fire right. You got to get the right amount of steam at the right time. They're just living creatures. They're wonderful.

NK: I know you're, you're, you believe your mother likely worked on this, this train. You're not 100 per cent certain. But what did your parents tell you about that time and that work -- the role that, that this train would have played during the war?

SW: Well, my mom didn't actually tell me a great deal. So, her home was in the middle of Southampton. But for the war, unfortunately, they moved, she moved out stay with a relative way out on the edge of Southampton. And she did recall watching the Blitz, the nights that Southampton was really seriously bombed, and a lot of destruction. But standing in the garden, watching in the distance. But in terms of the railway, from where she was staying, it was a bicycle ride of several miles to get to the Works, which in the summer was fine, but in the winter, when it was dark, you weren't allowed bright lights on your bicycle. And she did end up winding up in the ditch on the odd occasion.

NK: Oh no!

SW: No, no harm done. Just dignity. But all she really said was it was extremely hard work and long hours. But they all wanted to do it because the locos were needed.

NK: Why were they so important?

SW: Oh, it just, shifting, shifting stuff around. I mean, during the war you needed to get munitions, all that sort of thing down to the coast and into Portsmouth, and then the other ports. And also, moving troops around as well. In fact, our line runs from Alton to a place called Elstead. But from Alton there was another line going directly south down towards Portsmouth, which carried a lot of traffic during the war but closed soon afterwards.

NK: Obviously, we live in a time of, of high speed trains, modern trains. Why do you think it's important to keep the Canadian Pacific and other trains like it going?

SW: I think it's good for youngsters these days to see where we've come from, and to see the heritage that, that they will grow up to. In fact, on our launch day on Wednesday, there was quite a number of kids from local schools were on the platforms at the stations and seeing it go by. When my grandchildren were younger, we used to take those along to events in the summer at the railway. And they're just fascinated by the engines. They really are. I mean, the history, you've heard of Thomas the Tank Engine, I'm quite sure?

NK: [chuckling] Yes.

SW: Yes. Everybody's heard of Thomas the Tank Engine. And our railway has got a real life Thomas the Tank Engine. We own one. And we run Thomas events each summer. And youngsters come along to that. And they're fascinated. It's just that whole thing. I think it's good for them to see where it's come from, to appreciate where it might go in the future.

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Steve. Thank you.

SW: Thanks.

CH: That was Steve Wilson, who helped rebuild the Canadian Pacific. We reached him in Christchurch, England.

[folk]

George Jamieson Obit

CH: In 2008, on the 40th anniversary of this program, a formative figure in As It Happens history joined our former host Carol Off and me, to discuss an extremely sensitive topic:

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: What is it about the puns, George?

GEORGE JAMIESON: It's the last refuge of desperate writers. [CO laughs] You're staring at a blank screen, and you have a set of billboards -- headlines -- to write, and you have to put something at the end of them. And if you're stuck, then you start going through every bit of doggerel, every bit of old, cheap vaudeville humor that you can resurrect, and you try to just polish it up a little bit and sneak it by.

CO: And as Chris points out, always a bit of potty humour can get you by.

CH: The more the better

GJ: If you can get a little poop in there. [everyone laughs]

CH: That's our former host, of course, Carol Off, and me, chuckling awkwardly in the background when I was the show writer -- and a guy who played a lead role in making As It Happens what it was, and still is: George Jamieson. He was a writer, a producer, and senior producer here for around 20 years -- he could have told me the exact length of time, like down to the day -- and infused our show with a George-ness that is still essential to its sound. George died last Thursday. The obituary he wrote for himself begins, "Hello, and goodbye. It no longer seems odd to hear those two words in the same sentence, not once we heard the Beatles do it. I'm dating myself, I realize, but that doesn't matter, does it?" Well, no, I guess it doesn't, but only a writer with a particular ability to be wry and poignant -- not to mention concise -- at the same time would point that out. He was a kind of Renaissance man who brought many gifts to As It Happens -- a brilliant mind, a sharp editorial sensibility, an ear for music, and a lightning-quick wit. Not to mention an appreciation for his colleagues, and a supernatural memory: pretty much every week for years he would send us an email or two with some kind words about an item we'd run, and then he would compare and contrast it with an item from his time, which he'd recall in perfect detail. In 2016, we ran a story about a snow penis. Many enjoyed it. [NK chuckles] Some did not. So Carol called George up to ask whether we'd gone too far.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: George, what's your sense? Have the standards at As It Happens, have they slipped? Have we moved into the gutter here?

GJ: No, I'm happy to say that from what I hear, you're upholding a grand tradition that's gone a long way in the history of our show.

CO: In your day, and it was a lot of days you worked here, and were there stories that were at the level of the snow penis?

GJ: Oh yeah. Very, not not far off. Everyone remembers the day Alan Maitland referred to Kenneth Dye as Canada's auditor genital. [CO laughs] And on another occasion, we discussed the health hazards of bicycle seats, how they could cause male impotence by, as the health expert said, giving your penis a heart attack. At the same time, to be fair, we always were aware that some people were displeased by discussions like that, and we were sensitive to it.

CO: Just out of curiosity, this is, I mean, something I've observed in my years at As It Happens is that stories about body parts, bodily functions really get people here abuzz. And I'm just wondering if, my suspicion is that there is an 11-year-old struggling to emerge out of people who work at As It Happens. Is it, and I'm including the hosts in that.

GJ: That, that's, that's a complete exaggeration. It's a 13-year-old. [CO laughs] And it's a 13-year-old with a dog-eared magazine.

CO: Well, maybe we're less mature than you were. I'm thinking it's sliding down to 11 at this point.

GJ: Well, you know, 11 might be the new 13.

CO: [laughing] George, it's great to talk to you. Thanks.

GJ: Always a pleasure. Take care.

CH: That's the late George Jamieson talking to Carol in 2016. As I mentioned, he wrote his own obituary. It concludes: "To my last, I have believed this: There is much to celebrate as we walk this earth. Be joyous, be bold, fill your days with love and gratitude, as much as you can create, as much as you can hold. I am so glad we had this time together. Thank you for the gifts. They made a difference."

NK: A beautifully written obituary. No surprise from George. It was beautiful and wonderful to hear his, his voice. I didn't get the chance to work with him, but I remember his distinct walk, very brisk in the newsroom. He usually wore vests, if I recall correctly.

CH: He was a stylish guy.

NK: He was stylish.

CH: Great hair!

NK: And those emails that you mentioned, I think he's right -- 13 going on 11.

CH: [both laughing] Yeah. Yeah, after that conversation, we tried to boost it back up to 13.

NK: But you, you have listened to this show your entire life, and have worked on it for so long. But what was it like sitting at the mics with Carol, of course, as we know, but then George.

CH: Yeah, in that clip, I was the writer then, as, as I mentioned. And, I mean, I remember the suggestion that we were going to both be on the radio. And I thought, me and George Jamieson, that's like, I don't know, putting somebody who can do paint by numbers with Leonardo da Vinci.

NK: Come on!

CH: It was, it was like a celebrity encounter in which, unfortunately, I was on the radio, too. Because I think if you listen to that whole interview, most of my contributions are like [scared sounds. NK laughs] He was just such a formidable guy without any of the formidable personality, just all brain, and wit, and kindness. And, as I say, you know, when I was writing then, and any of the writing I do now, I didn't work with him directly. But his legacy on the program, and, and all the people that I worked with who had worked with him, that was, there was only one standard they were ever trying to reach. And it was, it was George's.

NK: So much heart, too.

CH: Yeah.

NK: In every word.

CH: Yeah. Thanks, George.

The AIH Transcript For March 25

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