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The AIH transcript for March 26, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: We now know the name of the previously unidentified First Nations woman murdered by a serial killer. Manitoba Premier Wab Kinew tells us about Ashlee Shingoose.

CH: Off-course discourse. Democrats call for resignations, while the Trump administration defends the officials who added a reporter to their group chat about a military strike.

NK: Lost in the snow. An avalanche kills three skiers in B.C.; a friend tells us Jeff Keenan will remembered for what he did on the slopes, and what he did for his community.

CH: He nearly got away scot-free. Since the '90s, a historian has been investigating how thousands of stolen Scottish archival documents ended up in Canada. He'll tell us how the evidence led him to a surprising suspect.

NK: Let the backbonelessness slide. A Canadian science-fiction writer explains why she nominated one of the front-runners in this year's Invertebrate of the Year contest: you guessed it! The resilient -- to say the least -- rotifer.

CH: Rotifer, obviously.

NK: [chuckling] Obviously.

CH: And...survival of the fitness. If you feel like time slows down as you struggle to finish a workout, you're not alone: science finds that while we're running, the clock is crawling.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday Edition. Radio that knows nothing -- and no one -- ever works out as planned.

Part 1: Wab Kinew, Scottish Archive Thefts, Canadian Invertebrate Backer

Wab Kinew

Guest: Wab Kinew

CH: We finally know Mashkode Bizhiki'ikwe Iban's name: Ashlee Shingoose. Today, Winnipeg Police identified Ms. Shingoose as one of the four First Nations women who were murdered by a Winnipeg serial killer in 2022. Community members had given her the name, which translates to Buffalo Woman, in a naming ceremony, as police sought her identity. Morgan Harris, Marcedes Myran, and Rebecca Contois were also killed. Ms. Shingoose's parents weren't able to be in Winnipeg for the announcement, but her father, Albert, spoke on speakerphone from St. Theresa Point First Nation.

SOUNDCLIP

ALBERT SHINGOOSE: Thank you, every one of you. Even the families that are there, thank you for everything. For being there for your loved ones. And our loved ones, too. I just want to say thank you for everything. And Wab Kinew, I want him to sing one song before, before I leave to the airport. Please, thank you.

CH: Ashley Shingoose's father, Albert, speaking earlier today. And as he requested, here is Manitoba Premier Wab Kinew.

SOUNDCLIP

[Wab Kinew sings]

CH: We reached Manitoba Premier Wab Kinew in Winnipeg.

NK: Premier Kinew, can you, can you, can you tell us why you chose that particular piece to sing?

WAB KINEW: The father of Ashlee Shingoose, Albert, who is listening live from St. Theresa Point With his wife, Theresa asked me to sing. And, you know, I was very honoured. And so, that song, it belongs to a child from South Dakota whose name is [unintelligible]. And I just put Ashlee's name in there as a way of paying tribute to her, and honouring the family, and hopefully providing them some solace during what I know is a really, really difficult time. And some of their leaders who are here were sharing texts, leaders from St. Theresa Point First Nation, to be clear, were sharing texts from the family afterwards. And so, I think they were able to, I think, get a lot of support through the afternoon, and we'll be working with them in the days and weeks to come.

NK: Because they, of course, wanted to be there in person, and that was the plan. But they're still working on flying into Winnipeg. That's why they were, they were on the phone, and on speakerphone there.

WK: That's right.

NK: Did you expect them to ask you to sing?

WK: No, actually we weren't even expecting them to necessarily speak by phone, but it was very emotional to hear these two parents speaking through tears, and sharing their reaction publicly to some very, very tough news. News that none of us would ever want to hear as parents. In many ways, the search, the landfill issue in Manitoba has become a symbol of reconciliation across the country. But there's always been that question of what about Buffalo Woman -- Mashkode Bizhiki'ikwe Iban as she was named by the community? And to have the Winnipeg Police Service today announce her identity as Ashlee, Christine Shingoose, it provides us another step. And now, we're able to tell the family we, we are going to try and return her to them. We don't know if we'll succeed in the search, but we will make the effort. Because, you know, when somebody goes missing, we go looking. But it's a, it's a, it's another step in the journey of reconciliation. There were so many questions about the police, and about the decision not to search for Morgan Harris and Mercedes Myran to attend the event today, and to see the new chief of police say that he wants a search to happen, and the Winnipeg Police Service is stepping up to play the role that they should be playing in this search. To me, it showed a learning that happened on behalf of the organization. A lesson learned, and it also showed progress.

NK: And how quickly, Premier, might the search for Ashlee's remains at the Brady Road landfill begin?

WK: Well, we will be going through the planning and early stages of a, of a search immediately. We've already set our minds to what this is going to, to mean. I can tell you, we already know that, you know, it's going to be different from the first search at the other landfill, which is called Prairie Green. It's a different type of landfill. We already have learned a lot about what needs to be done. And so, I don't expect that the lead time will be as, as long as it was with the first search. If only because in the first case, we were waiting for the trial to be handled before we launched the humanitarian search. In this case, we are able to move ahead with this search to try and recover the remains of Ashlee Shingoose as soon as we get through the environmental and safety considerations, and engagement with the families.

NK: You were mentioning how things have changed in Manitoba, there's a shift at least. And you mentioned the new police chief in Winnipeg, Gene Bowers, and the focus on reconciliation that the chief has spoken about. Chief Bowers was the deputy chief when police decided not to, to search the Prairie Green landfill. So, for those who are, who, you know, maybe very moved by today, but are still cautious, and not sure that they can trust that things are actually changing, what would you say to them?

WK: I would say that reconciliation requires us to be patient, and it requires us to allow people the ability to learn. And when you talk about the way the landfill search issue has played out in Manitoba, you would encounter a lot of Manitobans who were maybe unsure or maybe even opposed because of concerns around safety or cost, But who now that we have identified the remains of Morgan Harris and Mercedes Myron, who would now tell you that you know what? It was the right thing to do. And I think it's really important for us who have been working on this and, you know, others who've been advocating for this, I think it's really important that we don't shame people who have changed their minds or who have kept an open mind, even if they were unsure. And while that sort of conversation has been happening at the personal level, and those conversations have been happening between neighbours, I think the same is true of organizations like the Winnipeg Police Service, or institutions like different levels of government. And I want the project of reconciliation in Canada to succeed, which I think means being patient.

NK: And just finally, Premier, we've learned Ashlee Shingoose's name. She is more than, than how she died. As we know, she was, she was a beloved daughter and friend, I'm sure. What have you learned about her that you'd like to leave our listeners with?

WK: Well, I was struck at the image, which was at first hidden, and then revealed to us in the room. And she's a very beautiful young woman. And is clearly adored and loved by her parents. And to get to know this young person that was taken from us through this terrible tragedy, through the grief of her parents, is absolutely heartbreaking. But now that we've been given this difficult work, we undertake it with an eye towards delivering healing for the family, but also in the process of sorting through these tough issues. Hopefully, healing for the province and healing for the nation as well.

NK: Premier, I thank you for your time. Please take care.

WK: Yes, thanks so much. Take care.

CH: Wab Kinew is the Premier of Manitoba. We reached him in Winnipeg.

[sombre piano]

Scottish Archive Thefts

Guest: Alan Borthwick

CH: Alan Borthwick is not a detective by profession. But he's spent the last three decades working to solve a mystery. It started in 1994, when an archivist at Scotland’s National Records stumbled across hundreds of documents up for sale in London, England. The mysterious part was that those documents were supposed to be safely stored hundreds of kilometres away in Edinburgh. The trail led Mr. Borthwick to David Stirling Macmillan, a historian and professor at Trent University in Peterborough, Ontario -- who had a peculiar obsession with postmarks and wax seals. And, alleged, a habit of helping himself to archival records. Mr. Macmillan is suspected of smuggling hundreds -- if not thousands -- of documents out of Scotland's archives. Now, Alan Borthwick has helped track down those documents and bring them home. We reached Mr. Borthwick in Edinburgh.

NK: Alan, how is it possible that someone -- anyone -- could smuggle so many documents out of the National Scottish Archives?

ALAN BORTHWICK: I don't think we've really got a clear answer to that, but one of the important things is that Professor Macmillan was not targeting important or high-value correspondence. So, because he was targeting letters of some interest, but not historically important letters, maybe it was possible for him to ensure that his tracks were being covered just simply by the fact that not many people wanted to see them again.

NK: And we should mention, David Stirling Macmillan was, was never convicted of any offences.

AB: That's right.

NK: What you're describing there, though, what you're alleging, do you, do you believe it was a calculation, or did he just like these items in particular?

AB: Most likely, professor Macmillan's abiding interest was postal history. In other words, postmarks on letters. He was interested in the content. But I think that particularly once we got that large cache back, we could see that probably the postal history aspect was the more important thing for him. And that, it must probably then just be that he thought he had the opportunity.

NK: And just tell us a little bit about these postmarks and seals.

AB: Postage stamps come in, in May 1840, but prior to that, across the world, there would have been some sort of postage system where postmarks were applied to letters on dispatch. And particularly because the sort of letters that Professor Macmillan was, was using when he was in our search, it would be letters from Scots who were residents overseas. And in the course of the transit, interesting postmarks would be applied to them. That's where we think that Professor Macmillan thought, well, that's a really nice, interesting looking postmark. I wish I could have that in my collection.

NK: It was 1994, if I'm not mistaken. Someone at the National Records of Scotland sees documents for sale at an auction that should not have been for sale. When did you get involved in the investigation?

AB: It was actually in 1994. That was, as you say, there was the auction sale in London, in the U.K. And one of my colleagues had a look at this lot in the auction and was astonished to see a lot of letters, which probably came from collections which we held in her office. So, we were able to recover the lot. And when it was brought back to, to our office in Edinburgh, I was asked if I could have a look through. And that was when alarm bells really began to ring because there were so many connections between what we, what I was seeing and our existing collections.

NK: What were the tell-tale signs that she, and then you, saw that that made you think that, yes, these actually belong to our archives?

AB: Taken the letters, but he had erased reference numbers. Not, not, not every document that we have in our collections, I'm afraid, has a reference number on it. We've got something like 38 million bits of, loose bits of paper in our collections, but there were quite a lot which did have reference numbers. Then, when I began to match those letters up with the parent collection, it all began to add up. It was, it just became clearer and clearer the more that I looked at it.

NK: And then years after that, about 10 or 12 years ago now, you come to Canada, to Trent University. When you see that cache in front of you, what are you thinking?

AB: [chuckling] It was quite astonishing. We, we had an inkling that what was held by Trent University in the archives was a fairly large quantity altogether, and very similar to the material that we got back in 1994. But it was only in 2012 that we first knew that there was this online catalog. So, I'd begun to get a little bit of and idea. And then, when I saw the first day or two I was in the archives there, and just started looking through the documents that were brought to me, I just thought this just confirms that so many of the documents I was looking at really were in effect from our collections.

NK: Was Trent, or the staff at a Trent University, I mean, were they mortified?

AB: Yes. [both chuckle] That's putting it mildly. When we first contacted them, the then archivist, who is retired now, was utterly astonished at this tale that we were telling her. They couldn't have imagined that, there's no reason for them to imagine that this document, these documents, could have been stolen. And yet, there, there I was saying, [NK chuckles] well, look, I'm afraid this matches up with our collections.

NK: Yeah. You'd put all the pieces together. Professor Macmillan died in 1987. Obviously, there's no way to, to ask him to answer to these allegations, or to talk about any potential motivation. But have you been able to speak with anyone from his family, or who knew him at the university about these allegations?

AB: No, I'm afraid the, from, from what we're aware of, Professor Macmillan and his wife didn't have any, certainly didn't have any surviving children. His, Professor Macmillan's wife died in 1990. I did, when I was across in Trent in 2013, the then archivist introduced me to one or two people who were working as volunteers. One or two of whom knew, had, I think had Professor Macmillan as one of their tutors. Those who had had Professor Macmillan as a tutor said that he was a very interesting lecturer to listen to. And so, they'd enjoyed his, his classes.

NK: Obviously, you can't reveal [chuckling] the intricacies of security at the archives at this stage, I would imagine. But have things changed to prevent something like this from happening again? Or are there troves of, of documents waiting to be discovered somewhere else now?

AB: Oh, well, that would be awful, to be honest. But no, we do have CCTV now. Of course, that wasn't practicable in the '60s, '70s. The big thing though, which I think is a big change since 1980, when professor Macmillan last used our section, is that at that stage, it would have been practicable for him to have brought in a briefcase or something like that into the section with his papers. That was, that would be utterly forbidden.

NK: Alan, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you for your time.

AB: Sure. Not at all. Very glad to have even had the chance to chat to you.

CH: Alan Borthwick is the head of the private records team at Scotland’s National Records. We reached him in Edinburgh.

[instrumental]

Canadian Invertebrate Backer

Guest: Nina Munteanu

CH: When the editors of the Guardian invited readers to submit their contenders for an Invertebrate of the Year competition, they expected to hear from people. What they didn't expect was to hear from well over 2,000 readers around the world. And that they'd be about as varied as the spineless creatures they were endorsing. Take this entry, which the Guardian's Patrick Barkham told us about on Monday's show.

SOUNDCLIP

PATRICK BARKHAM: Interestingly, one of our Canadian readers nominated a species that has made our shortlist, and she's a scientist and a sci-fi writer herself. And and she nominated the common rotifer, which is another microscopic animal. And it's all female. And it's got along very well without men for millions of years, so [both laugh].

CH: The Guardian's Patrick Barkham, speaking with Nil on Monday about the paper's Invertebrate of the Year competition -- and about a submission from reader Nina Munteanu. As you heard, Ms. Munteanu is an ecologist and science fiction writer. We reached her in Peterborough, Ontario.

NK: Nina, when you heard about this competition The Guardian was it was putting on, was there any doubt which creature you were going to support?

NINA MUNTEANU: [laughing] None at all. None at all. I'm in love with the Bdelloid rotifers for, for so many reasons.

NK: Why? What has captured you so deeply?

NM: They're, they're such cool things to look at. Neat to watch. They're, you know, they, they hang on to a surface with their tiny little feet, and then their heads are, like, these filler shapes. They've got these two coronas with cilia that whirl around like mad. That's how they suck their food in, so that you've got these two vortexes coming in. And then, you've got the stomach that goes boom, boom, boom. And, I mean, it's [both laugh] it's wonderful to watch. They're tiny, tiny creatures -- half a millimetre, less than half a millimetre in size. People, people don't see them, obviously. They don't even know they exist.

NK: And that's what you wrote. That's part of what you wrote when you wrote to The Guardian. You said most people don't see them or even know they exist. But these bad-ass, all-female rotifers have thrived in highly variable environments for over 40 million years. And in the journal Science, another testament to them. They write, quote, in Mother Nature's edition of the TV reality show Survivor, they would probably be the last animals standing. And they go on [NM chuckles] from there. But help our listeners understand how it is that, that they're entirely female, and how that has served them?

NM: Well, for starters, they live in sketchy neighbourhoods like temporary ponds and moss, even tree bark. So, because they're in sketchy neighborhoods, right, they've got to be a special bad ass. So, let's say when the pond dries up, they go dormant. And then, they basically dry up waiting for a wet day to rehydrate and go on living. And this is where the sex comes in. They don't bother with sex because it's too slow to find partners. Instead, they just clone themselves. They get on with life, right? Boom. And they rely on DNA repair and gene transfer to adapt to their changing environment. That's what sex usually does, right, to, to create variation. They get that by just helping themselves to the environment. [laughing] Is that not the coolest thing?

NK: I think it's going to resonate with a lot of, with a lot of listeners, Nina. [laughing]

NM: Oh yeah. Think, think, think of it as crossing a rickety bridge. So, some put everything into crossing it safely, all their preparations is to succeed in the crossing, right? So, but if they fail and fall, that's it, they're done because they can't fly. The Bdelloid prepares by not preparing, but being open to all possibilities. So when it falls, it finds what it needs as it falls. [laughing]

NK: I feel this so deeply. I mean, you've convinced me very quickly. I've never loved any creature more.

NM: I know! So, on top of that, Bdelloid mothers that go through desiccation and dormancy, they produce daughters with increased fitness. If that desiccation doesn't occur over several generations, the rotifers actually lose their fitness, which means they need that unpredictable environment to stay robust. So, they're investing in the future. They're, they're the ultimate optimists, for me.

NK: When you got the call from the paper saying you were on the shortlist, I mean, I don't think surprise is the right word because you're all in.

NM: Well, I was surprised because there were a bazillion people that went in. But I'm not surprised because of what the Bdelloid rotifers is. And I'm really happy for the Bdelloid because in a way, they're, they're the unsung hero. Nobody knows about them. Everybody seems to know about the tardigrade or the water bear. You know, the cute moss piglet? Because, because of all the propaganda. But nobody knows about the Bdelloid, so. [NK laughs]

NK: We mentioned you're an ecologist and a writer. You're imagining other worlds in that, in that work as a writer. How can invertebrates help us do that, do you think?

NM: Well, it's a gorgeous question. I mean, well, I write, I, I've written actually, a guidebook on how to incorporate ecology and the environment in your writing because a lot of writers, good writers, spend time on, on the setting, right? The world that they're writing about. And we can draw an awful lot from each of these creatures. I mean, we're just talking about the Bdelloid today, but there are so many other really crazy invertebrates out there that have evolved particular adaptations to living in a light, in an area that they live in. And a lot of them are extremophiles, that is, they they live in crazy environments that are sketchy, like the Bdelloid. You know, ponds that dry up literally. And, and they've developed means to do so, and we can learn from that. And, of course, in terms of storytelling, we can certainly draw from that, and use them as archetypes, etc.

NK: Yeah. So how are you feeling about the rotifer's chances at this stage?

NM: I'm feeling great. I think it's going to be first. If not firs, second, but that's okay. The Bdelloid's gotten

to the Top 10, and it's, it's getting some screen time. So, I think that's, that's pretty cool.

NK: It really is, Nina, I'm so glad we could speak. Thank you.

NM: Thank you very much.

CH: Nina Munteanu is a freshwater ecologist and science fiction writer -- and champion of the Bdelloid rotifer. We reached her in Peterborough, Ontario

[hip-hop]

Workout Time Slows

CH: You've done some stretching. Chugged your water. Refilled your water bottle. Redid all the stretching, just in case the first stretching wore off. And now it's time for a brisk 10-, or seven-, maybe five-minute spin on the stationary bike. But as you put on your workout playlist and start pedaling, something weird happens.

[exercise bike sounds, Everybody Dance Now plays]

CH: [slow, distorted] Time starts to slow down. It’s like magic. Bad magic. Like a spell cast on you by a wizard who is a real jerk. Who cackles as you pedal in slow motion, gasping, and wheezing, and watching as the seconds tick down at half-speed. You’ve been on this bike for six minutes. How come only 41 seconds have passed. How can you break this curse? [sounds end] Well, the good news is if you just stop pedalling, everything -- including you -- goes back to normal speed. The other good news is: it's not just you. A new study has reached a non-startling conclusion: when you're exercising hard, you perceive time differently. In a number of tests, people on exercise bikes routinely overestimated how long they'd been on there, by about 10 per cent. The first author on this study has a pretty good theory as to why: psychology professor Andrew Edwards told The Guardian, "Exercise, particularly hard exercise, increases focus on the body, creating a heightened awareness of each moment." Now, I've peer-reviewed this research, [NMK chuckles] and: yes. And there's nothing we can do about it. When it comes to exercise, if you're punching the clock, you're going to wind up wanting to punch the clock.

[ambient]

Part 2: Atlantic Signal Messages, B.C. Avalanche

Atlantic Signal Messages

Guest: Jamil Jaffer

CH: There were more baffled questions, and not very many answers today, as the fall-out continued over the accidental inclusion of Atlantic magazine editor Jeffrey Goldberg on a group chat between top Trump administration officials -- including the vice-president, the defense secretary, and the director of intelligence. They discussed -- in detail -- a military strike on Houthi rebels in Yemen. Officials maintain that no harm was done, and no American military personnel were put at risk by the conversation -- which took place over the Signal communications app. Jamil Jaffer is the executive director of the National Security Institute at the Antonin Scalia Law School at George Mason University. We reached him in Arlington, Virginia.

NK: Jamil, Senator Mark Warner -- who is the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee -- as you've likely heard, says Chief of Defense Staff Hegseth and Security Adviser Waltz have to resign. Do you think resignations are needed here? Should heads roll?

JAMIL JAFFER: You know, look, I don't know. I think you're unlikely to see resignations because, at the end of the day, the president would have to ask for the resignation of Mike Waltz and Pete Hegseth. And thus far, he's actually defended Waltz specifically, and appears to be defending Hegseth as well. So, I don't think we're likely to see resignations. Although I will say this, if pressure heats up on Capitol Hill or in the public domain, the president, if he, if he's feeling the heat, may very well feel the need to hold somebody accountable in his administration. If he does, that's certainly a possibility. We've seen the president do it before. You know, he, he's the kind of guy who sometimes, you know, will go after, will take people out if he needs to.

NK: But, but from your perspective, and what you know, do you believe that, that people should be fired over this? Because you don't have to be a politician or a defence expert, but most people watching this believe what has happened is extraordinary and certainly concerning.

JJ: Well, it certainly is sort of surprising to everybody that watched this to hear that we were using Signal to discuss operational planning for a strike against the Houthis in Yemen. But what I think was even more revealing was yesterday, at the Senate Intelligence Committee, the CIA director testified that one of the first applications installed on his computer was Signal, and he was told that he could use it for a variety of purposes. Now, probably not this purpose, but it was interesting cause I don't think we knew that before. So, I think we're all learning very much about how the government uses Signal and other capabilities. It may very well be the sort of thing, whether this administration, the prior Trump administration, or even the Biden administration became the norm, and we just didn't know about it until they, in a boneheaded way, added a reporter to the, to the conversation.

NK: It sounds to me like you think that this was just a mistake, but is that underplaying this?

JJ: Well, that's why I'm not sure, right? What I thought was really interesting about the conversation that took place on Signal was nobody, you had the most senior national security officials in the government. Nobody objected and said, hey, why are we on Signal? Why aren't we on the government's special XChat service, right? Nobody said that. Which leads me to believe that either there's no XChat service. It's not very good. It doesn't work effectively. The, the, you know, the classified chat thing, or this is a pretty normal thing to have these important conversations taking place on some sort of a commercial or publicly available app like Signal. Nobody seemed to think this was weird or odd, at least in the, in the chat that we've seen. Nobody raised that.

NK: And a channel that, although, you know, it can be secure, it can be unsecure as well. And the Defense Department, as I understand it, was raising concerns about how, how reliable or safe it was just not long before all of this unfolded. We last spoke to you on the show -- I did -- just almost exactly two years ago in 2023, when there was a leak of highly classified Pentagon documents on, on a chat reserved for Minecraft. You were really concerned at that time. You said you'd be deeply concerned if you worked at the White House and this was happening. How does this line up compared to that?

JJ: Yeah, look, obviously that was a case where you had somebody intentionally taking classified information, putting it out publicly in order to, in order to sort of vindicate themselves, demonstrate they had access to the information. And we've seen it before with Edward Snowden, who did it. You know, he claims to be a whistleblower, but then took a whole bunch more information and revealed to the world, and undermined America's national security. This case, you have a bunch of senior officials trying to do their work, trying to get the job done in an operationally relevant way. And then, in a boneheaded manner, adding an Atlantic reporter who then tells the story. So, you know, yes, some adverts, but the fact that, the fact is that had you not been using the service, you would never be able to add Jeffrey Goldberg to it. If you'd been using a government service that was designed for this purpose, he wouldn't even be on that system.

NK: Or here's a suggestion: meeting in person about classified, or what are believed to be -- many believe to be -- classified matters. Why aren't they meeting in person?

JJ: Yeah. Look, I mean, that's the normal way this works, right? You have principals committee meetings at the White House, in the Situation Room. And -- in fact, as we've seen in that chat -- that's actually how this chat began. They had a meeting in the, in the White House, in the Situation Room. They made some decisions. There was, as they said, there was a summary of conclusions sent, quote, on the high side, the classified system. All that's in the chat, and they clearly made a decision to have a continued communication at a lower level on this, on this service. Maybe that's normal on how the government now operates. Nobody seemed to think this was a big surprise, like, oh, why are we talking on Signal?

NK: And members of the administration, as you know, have been saying that this isn't classified material. You know, trying to to downplay this. Former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel was speaking to CNN's Christiane Amanpour today saying that, you know, you can parse words, I'm paraphrasing him, but this looks classified from where he sits. Isn't it?

JJ: Yeah, look, the administration has been very careful to say two things. One, they said nothing was classified. And then second, they've said it wasn't war plans, right? Well, clearly this wasn't a war plan. It wasn't the whole operational plan of how we're going to go to war against China.

NK: There were strike details, yeah.

JJ: But, but there were, yeah, but there were very clear operational details. And I think Jeffrey Goldberg's point that he's made, and the reason he didn't originally reveal that, he says, was because, A, if those had been revealed prior to the strike, one, they might have put us pilots who were flying those missions at risk. B, it might have warned the Houthi rebels who they were coming after. You have that very specific communication about a particular terrorist and his girlfriend's house, right, which might have tipped somebody off. And so, yes, had that information been revealed publicly or revealed at the time prior to the strike, that could have potentially put people's lives at risk, and could have potentially jeopardized the operation. And so, then the question just is, you know, at the end of the day, classification and those decisions are in the hands of the administration and the president. Did he authorize this kind of communication? Did somebody else authorize it -- an original classification authority? And if they did, was that appropriate? And should they have done that? Those are all the questions that somebody -- Congress or other investigative bodies -- have got to find out the answers to.

NK: And just finally, Jamil, do you think this is an issue, though, that's going to stick and stay with the administration?

JJ: Well, it's certainly going to be raised a lot. They raised questions about Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server when they were on the campaign trail, and since. And so, this is one that's likely to be used quite a bit to respond to those claims from back in the day.

NK: Jamil, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JJ: Yeah, thank you.

CH: Jamil Jaffer is the executive director of the National Security Institute at George Mason University. We reached him in Arlington, Virginia.

[ambient]

‘Pokémon’ demi-god pack

CH: One, two, three, four. [out of breath] woah! Sorry...I’m just trying to get my steps in. What am I up to today? Ah, 23! That’s not bad. Look, as I alluded to earlier in the program, I'm not so much a fitness buff as I am someone who's focused on his own evolution. It's a private, personal journey, really. But some evolutions are more noteworthy -- they’re more public. Like the one Chelsea Skelly experienced recently. Ms. Skelly is a Pokémon card collector. Earlier this month, she got quite a surprise when she opened up a pack of cards to find what's referred to as "a demi-god pack":

SOUNDCLIP

CHELSEA SKELLY: A demi-god pack is essentially when you get all three evolutions from, like, the same Pokémon family in one singular pack of Pokémon cards. And so, in my case, it was Squirtle, Wartortle, and Blastoise.

PAUL KARCHUT: Okay, and how rare is that?

CS: I'd say that they're very rare. I've seen people pull these packs on the internet, but I've never known of someone in real-life that's gotten one before, so it was pretty shocking, for sure.

PK: Take us to that moment when you opened this pack of 10 up and you found those cards. What was it like for you?

CS: Oh, it was so exciting, I bought it at Eastridge Sports Cards & Games in Calgary, and I was with my partner at the time, and then we went into his car in the parking lot. And we're opening up cards. And at first, we thought, I just got Squirtle. And we're like, whoa, cool! A special illustration rare. But then, like, I fanned out the rest of the cards and we went, wait, something's going on here. This is pretty exciting. So, there was just, like, a full-on shock, a moment of silence of us just trying to process what happened because we're such big Pokémon nerds, and we really did not think that this would happen. So, it was, it was quite a cool feeling.

PK: I've wondered before with this, with hockey cards or baseball card packs as well. Is what shows up in these packs entirely random, or would someone have intentionally put these three cards together as kind of like a hidden carrot for a collector like you?

CS: I feel like they're definitely intentional. They're just very rare and, like, seldom to come by, if I had to guess.

PK: And does that sort of unexpected gamification of what's going to be in the pack kind of keep you coming back? Is that, what, what level of excitement does that bring to collecting for you?

CS: Oh, it brings, like, a very, very great amount of excitement for me. I never, I never went into this expecting to pull one. I was just excited to open cards of all my favorite Pokémon from my childhood. And then, to, like, have that happen. It was a huge moment in a Pokémon collector's lap, especially for me. I definitely want to hold on to them because the collector in me is so stoked about it. But, but we'll see. [both chuckle].

CH: Chelsea Skelly is a Pokémon card collector in Calgary. She was talking to Paul Karchut, who's guest-hosting The Calgary Eyeopener.

[acoustic guitar]

B.C. Avalanche

Guest: Darrah Reid-McLean

CH: On Monday, a group of men had just finished skiing north of Kaslo, British Columbia. They were waiting to be picked up by a transport helicopter, when there was an avalanche. Three of them were killed; one survived, and is in critical condition. Forty-four-year-old Jeff Keenan was among those killed. He was a professional snowboarder, and cofounded the snowboarding company Dinosaurs Will Die. Darrah Reid-McLean was a friend of his. And we reached her in Whistler, B.C.

NK: Darrah, this has been a lot for people there to deal with. Certainly, those who were close to the victims. You or a long time friend, as we've said, of Jeff Keenan. how are you holding up?

DARRAH REID-MCLEAN: I don't know how to answer that. It's been really awful. But there's been a lot of love from the community, and so that feels good. But yeah, it's been very, very hard.

NK: It's a close-knit community, I know from people there. We've also heard that his partner, Leanne Pelosi, was one of the people there when this happened. And, you know, was trying to dig him out of the snow herself. Have you spoken to them?

DRM: I, a couple of messages, but I, I imagine space is needed. I mean, I can't even imagine the nightmare that she's going through right now. And I want to say that Jeff was a really good friend of mine, but he has close family, and a partner, and a son who are also experiencing a devastating loss that I can't even imagine what Leanne is going through.

NK: Yeah, a young son, right?

DRM: Yeah.

NK: When were you last able to speak with him?

DRM: I guess a week or two ago, maybe two weeks ago. We were kind of messaging back and forth about conditions, and snow, and different backcountry zones. I wasn't filming or working with him at the time, but I often consult him about his opinions of where my crew might be going. He has a lot of knowledge and experience.

NK: And that kind of information sharing and tips are so crucial in what you do and in the community up there, right?

DRM: Yes, definitely.

NK: They were heliskiing. So, for those who don't know, and haven't done it, it's off trail, downhill skiing or snowboarding. Skiers go to the top of the mountain by helicopter. It's considered, you know, relatively safe. But, of course, there are risks, even for the most experienced and well-equipped who do that. What did Jeff tell you about why he loved doing that, and how he weighed those risks?

DRM: I think the passion for, Jeff's passion for snowboarding was, you could feel it, you could see it. It was very obvious. And I think he weighed those risks by being very knowledgeable, and taking the time to learn about the backcountry, and learn about the snow. I trusted just more than anyone going into the backcountry. He had so much experience and knowledge, and he was safe. And I can't speak to what happened there. I don't know. I think it's just a tragic accident.

NK: As I understand it, Jeff Keenan was not only just a friend, but I don't know if mentor is the right word, but certainly someone who's instrumental in where you are at in your own career. Can you tell our listeners about that?

DRM: Yeah, I, yes, he was instrumental in my life and my career. Jeff was a professional snowboarder first, and then he was a filmmaker, and then he started a snowboard brand called Dinosaurs Will Die. And eventually, he sponsored me with my first Dinosaurs Will Die snowboard. And then, years later, gave me my first pro model with that brand. So, he changed my life, and made my life dream come true. And I don't, it's hard to even, I don't even know how to explain.

NK: It's coming through, it's coming through, Darrah, in what you're saying. And, you know, even the name of his company, which I didn't know until I was getting ready to talk to you, says, says a lot about him, and his personality, and is his outlook on life.

DRM: Yeah. I want to also be clear about he didn't just make a space and a home for me, he did that for a lot of people. And that's just one of the ways that Jeff had a huge impact on the snowboard community. I mean, following the brand, he, the way he mentored and taught in the backcountry with just patience, and so many people have learned so much from him. And, yeah.

NK: Yeah. A tribute at Mount Seymour said, you know, that he was part of a, quote, crew of snowboarders that helped define snowboarding in the '90s and 2000s, unquote. For people who never had a chance to see him on the mountain, on the slopes, what would you like them to know about what he was like?

DRM: It was stylish, and aggressive, and passionate, and unique, and full-throttle, [chuckling] punk rock. [laughing] His snowboard parts from back in the day are iconic, and it's just crazy to think about the different layers of inspiration he's had over the years. First as the snowboarder, and then as he stepped into a different role in the industry.

NK: Yeah. Well, Darrah, you've been very generous with, with your time and your memories. I'm very sorry for your loss, but please take care.

DRM: Thank you. I hope I, I just want people to know how special, and how much he changed so many people's lives. And I just, I hope that I got that across.

NK: You really did. Thank you, Darrah.

DRM: Thanks.

CH: Darrah Reid-McLean is a professional snowboarder and a friend of the late Jeff Keenan, who died in an avalanche on Monday. We reached her in Whistler, B.C.

[wistful instrumental]

FOA: AIH Beaver Symbol

CH: Fifty years ago this week, the beaver officially became Canada's national animal. And if you were listening to this show just over 50 years ago, you'll know that As It Happens played no small part in making that happen. It all started when a New York politician tried to make the beaver the state animal. A shocking act of aggression, which prompted As It Happens to do this:

SOUNDCLIP

[Canadian-esque music]

FIRESIDE AL MAITLAND: This program has refrained from direct editorial comment in the past. We have refrained from pronouncing on the Vietnam War. We passed on the coup in Chile. We called for understanding in the Middle East. We didn't even laugh at the new CBC symbol. We have quietly labored for moderation, perspective, and above all, decency in public life. We can, however, remain silent no longer. Now, indeed, is the time for Canadians to speak. The state of New York, a foreign power, ladies and gentlemen, is considering a bill to make the beaver -- yes, Canadians, our beaver -- its official state symbol. Can they do this. The answer is yes. It is the shame of the governments of this country that the beaver was never officially adopted as one of our symbols. And the Americans say tough luck. They've got our oil, our mines, our corporations. They even bought out Eaton's mail order catalog. But Canada, the beaver?!

CH: From December 1974, that was Alan Maitland launching this show's campaign to save the beaver. And save it they did. Here's former As It Happens executive producer Mark Starowicz explaining how it went down.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK STAROWICZ: The state of New York, a legislator in the state of New York, I think the state senator, had proposed the bill, and I knew that the beaver became the state animal of New York State. We called him up and said, you can't do that. It's the national symbol of Canada. He says, well, actually, you folks never registered it. Apparently, there's an international registry of national symbols. So, we began the campaign to save the beaver. Well, petitions started coming in to As It Happens, which we duly forwarded to Ottawa, from kindergartens, from professors, from, I mean, in the tens of thousands. People climbed on the campaign. We tried to have an item almost every day, certainly every week, and wouldn't let it go. Eventually, one MP, I forget which party, a private, got up with a private members, proposed a private member's bill to make the beaver the national symbol of Canada. And private members’ bills are hopeless. They almost never get through. But he rose with the bill. The government House leader got up, just nodded, which means government assent. And the beaver was accepted as the national symbol of Canada.

CH: From 2018, that was former As It Happens executive producer Mark Starowicz recalling the great beaver campaign. It was a proud moment for this program, for all Canadians, and, indeed, for all beavers. But the battle did come with casualties, including a co-host's outfit. When they decided to bring a pet beaver into the studio to really make their case for the resplendent rodent, Mr. Maitland was accosted: when he picked "Scruffy" the beaver up... this happened:

BARBARA FRUM: He loves it already!

AL MAITLAND: There now. There now.

BF: That's great. That's, oh, how nice for you, Al. That's great!

AM: Such a lovely boy! And he's peeing on me. Oh no! Oh no!

BF: [laughing] It doesn't stop!

AM: Anyway, listen.

BF: Merry Christmas, Al. [laughter all around].

AM: It’s a flood! Listen, it's never happened before on the radio, I'm sure.

[more laughter]

CH: That was Barbara Frum and Alan Maitland hanging out with a pet beaver brought to the studio by David Carrick and his children. Shortly after Mr. Carrick explained that beavers only pee when they are in the water, Scruffy issued a counterpoint all over Mr. Maitland. Now, we want to hear from you. Not, you know, necessarily about the urination habits of the beaver -- but rather about one of the world's largest and most industrious rodents, and whether you remain as passionate at the AIH listeners of yore about its role as Canada's national animal. Is the beaver still the right choice and, if not, what would you suggest? Let us know by email or voicenote at aih@cbc.ca or share your passionate yeas or nays with Talkback -- 416-205-5687.

[hip-hop]

Part 3: Fungi Watercolours, Periodic Table Of Snow

NPR/PBS Testimony

CH: Today, executives from NPR and PBS testified in Washington, D.C. And all they had to do in that testimony was prove their worth to Americans. That was an uphill battle -- because the two publicly funded media outlets were the subject of a Department of Government Efficiency subcommittee hearing titled "Anti-American Airwaves: Holding the heads of NPR and PBS Accountable." And it began with Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene accusing both news outlets of being "radical leftwing echo chambers,” and having a “communist agenda.” Here is Republican Congressman Jim Jordan posing questions to NPR’s CEO Katherine Maher.

SOUNDCLIP

JIM JORDAN: Who is Uri Berliner?

KATHERINE MAHER: Mr. Berliner is a former senior editor.

JJ: That's all?

KM: A former senior business editor for NPR.

JJ: How long did he work at NPR?

KM: I believe he was there just over 25 years.

JJ: Twenty-five years. Award-winning journalist. Did he win any awards?

KM: Our time --

JJ: Peabody Award. That's pretty important, in it.?

KM: That is.

JJ: A pretty distinguished journalist, right?

KM: Certainly.

JJ: And he wrote, he wrote a long story about what you do at NPR. Is NPR biased?

KM: Congressman, I have never seen any instance of --

JJ: Never?

KM: Of pro-political bias determining editorial decisions, no.

JJ: Well, Ms. Ber, Mr. Berliner, in his story last year wrote, I've, in the D.C. area editorial positions at NPR. He said he found 87 registered Democrats, zero Republicans. Is that accurate?

KM: We do not track the numbers or the voter registration, but I find that concerning.

JJ: Was award-winning journalist who work 25 years at NPR, Mr. Berliner, was he lying when he wrote that?

KM: I am not presuming such. I just don't have, we don't track that information about our journalist.

JJ: Eighty-seven to 0. And you're not biased?

KM: I think that is concerning if those numbers are accurate.

CH: Congressman Jim Jordan questioning NPR CEO Katherine Maher. For Republicans, examining whether NPR and PBS should receive public money was the purpose of the DOGE hearing. But Democratic congresswoman Jasmine Crockett thinks there is something else at play.

SOUNDCLIP

JASMINE CROCKETT: It should not be surprising that the president is doing everything possible to make it more difficult for the media to hold him accountable. And for the public to be informed about his reckless and illegal behaviour. Yet, here we are. The Republicans have actually organized this goofy hearing to try to convince the American people that PBS and NPR are, quote, domestic terrorist, or domestic threats, my apologies. Not the incompetent, unqualified secretary of defense, whose texting war plan, who's texting war plans to journalist. But it's it's y'all, PBS and NPR, the American people are supposed to be worried about. You can't make this up. It's as stupid as it sounds. The American people should be worried about the president threatening to investigate NBC for treason for reporting on his felony convictions. Or arresting reporters, and stripping networks of their licenses for not saying nice things about him, or not using Gulf of America.

CH: Texas congresswoman Jasmine Crockett during a DOGE subcommittee hearing, today.

[eerie instrumental]

Fungi Watercolours

Guest: Patricia Kaishian

CH: Mary Elizabeth Banning once described fungi as "vegetable outcasts." She wrote, quote: "they ask for attention but claim none." Unquote. Now, Ms. Banning's beloved fungi are finally in the spotlight -- figuratively speaking, of course, because they grow better in the dark. Ms. Banning was a self-taught mycologist who was born in 1822 -- one of the first women to describe new species of fungi to science. She spent years working on a manuscript called The Fungi of Maryland, which was forgotten about for a long time, in a drawer at the New York State Museum. Now, that museum is holding a new exhibit called Outcasts, which puts Ms. Banning's letters, watercolours, and descriptions of Maryland's mushrooms on display. Patricia Kaishian is a curator of mycology at the New York State Museum. We reached her in Albany, New York.

NK: Patricia, these watercolors -- I was just looking at them -- are so beautiful. How did you react when you saw them in person? They're really like love letters.

PATRICIA KAISHIAN: Yes. When I first saw these illustrations, I was kind of overcome with emotion. They're so beautiful. They're intimate. The colors are so rich. And the scientific detail in them is also, like, very accurate, but kind of also interpreted through the lens of someone who really loves what they're illustrating. I was, like, over the moon when I first saw them.

NK: The exhibit is called Outcasts, and our listeners heard a moment ago in the introduction that Banning thought of them as vegetable outcasts. Why do you think that term is so fitting?

PK: So, I wanted to title this exhibit Outcasts because both women in science at that time and the kingdom of fungi were neither group was taken seriously by scientific institutions. So, women weren't really allowed to be formally participating in science during this time in the 1800s. And mushrooms as a group were considered unworthy of formal investigation by a lot of scientists. They just weren't thought to be important. They were thought to be gross and weird. And so, it was actually the case that many women took up the study of mycology, the study of mushrooms. Because, you know, because neither were permitted in, like, formal settings, or neither were encouraged, I should say.

NK: In the exhibit also, you have some, some letters there that, that Banning sent to Charles Horton Peck, who worked at the museum as New York's first state botanist. There's a significance to their relationship -- decades long relationship. What was it?

PK: Peck was the preeminent North American mycologist during this time. So, they were contemporaries. And as such, Mary Banning wrote, pack a letter, you know, basically to communicate with him about the subject of mycology at some point. She had studied mycology independently of communicating with him for a long time. But, you know, there, being it was, and it was a very a solitary project for her for, for many years. But, you know, it's good to have friends and colleagues who are equally obsessed with your study subjects, so you can talk about it and learn from each other. So, she was sort of reaching out, hoping that he might engage with her as a colleague or, you know, she was very humble, though, so she definitely identified more as a student towards him, even though I think it's very, very evident that she was a genius and extremely knowledgeable. But she humbled herself in that dynamic. And they wrote each other for several decades pretty strictly on the subject of mycology. Although Mary Banning, in her writing, does talk a little bit about her personal life, and, and anecdotes from her travels and such. But really, they had a collegial relationship, and they collaborated on some publications. Mary Banning would send specimens to Peck. And sometimes, Peck would include material she sent or observations she made in some of his publications. And he even actually named a species after her.

NK: Oh, what's that species called?

PK: Hypomyces banningii. It's kind of hard to say.

NK: [laughing] And what does it look like?

PK: Yeah, it's actually, like, a fungus that grows on another fungus. So, it's sort of like a parasite. But I don't think he meant anything negative by that. [chuckling]

NK: It's, I get it. I get it. She, she she also sent him her manuscript, and wrote, quote, in parting from it. I feel like taking leave of a beloved friend with whom I've spent many pleasant hours. Circumstances impel me to put it in a safe place, unquote. But he didn't publish the book as she had hoped.

PK: Yes. So, part of the story definitely is a tragedy. You know, there's the tragedy of being a woman in science, trying to make her way in science, and really not gaining access, or given the recognition for her talents and skills. And then there's also, like, the tragedy of this interpersonal dynamic where she entrusted her, her life's work, which is, by every measure, a really magnificent contribution to the mycological record and a fantastic artistic achievement. And he, we don't have letters that he sent. We only have letters that Mary Banning sent to Peck here at the museum. So based on those, we, it seems that he did acknowledge receipt of the manuscripts, but really, and, and maybe offered some brief compliments. But she did write him a few times, sort of asking, you know, trying to, I think, get some assurances that it would be useful and valuable to the field. And it doesn't really appear that he gave her that sort of assurance. And it seems that she died without closure that her work was important, and valuable, and beautiful, and, and a scientific accomplishment.

NK: This is, this is a fascinating conversation for me to have. And I'm certainly not an expert in the field as you are. What, I mean, how has it felt for you? What kind of impact has it had to, to work on this exhibit?

PK: So, not many people have held the position of curator of mycology since, you know, Peck was the first. And then there was, you know, just a handful of other people. And I am the first woman to have this position. So, there does feel like there is something kind of a bit emotional for me to be in the position to be the steward of Mary Banning's work and legacy. And I feel really honored that I'm in a position where I can kind of bring her work into the, into the spotlight, and highlight it and celebrate it. And so, that's been very special for me. It feels, you know, like, I think, I think a lot about what she might think of the situation, right? That there, first of all, that women can be professional scientists, and be paid to be, to be a mycologist. And I, you know, I'm sure she would be happy about that. And, you know, I just hope, you know, I think a lot about how she might feel to see all of this enthusiasm and public celebration of her work. And, you know, it makes, that makes me happy. And it makes me feel like she, she says, has a quote to the effect of I have a powerful will. And I'm determined that this work will not die with me. And so, certainly that, that's true. Even though it went, it disappeared for a while. It's, it didn't die. And it's, it's certainly now out in the open, and being celebrated. So, I'm happy to have helped with that.

NK: And I'm happy to have spoken with you, Patricia. Thank you.

PK: [chuckle] Thank you so much.

CH: Patricia Kaishian is a curator of mycology at the New York State Museum. We reached her in Albany, New York.

[pop rock]

NS Canadian Flags

CH: A school board in Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, has introduced a new rule: only Canadian and Nova Scotian flags will be allowed to fly on flagpoles outside of schools. So flags representing Mi'kmaq, African Nova Scotian, 2SLGBTQ+ and other communities have been ordered to be taken down. In a statement to the CBC, the South Shore Regional Centre for Education said those flags will instead be displayed inside the schools. And the reason for that is to, quote, "ensure that the flags are better cared for and protected from damage.” Unquote. The president of the Nova Scotia Teachers Union, Peter Day, isn’t buying that explanation.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER DAY: The only explanation that I've heard so far is that the concern was that flags were in disrepair. And that, you know, this caused them to be unsightly. No one wants to see a tattered Canadian flag. If, you know, if, let's say, the flags are being vandalized, then those responsible need to be held accountable for that. But regardless of how the flag is damaged, a new replacement flag should be flown. And this includes our Arcadian flags, this includes our African Nova Scotian flags, our Pride, our Mi'kmaq, our Gaelic flags. It shouldn't just be centred around the Canadian flag.

BOB MURPHY: So, the Centre for Education says that maintaining multiple flags is quite time-consuming and costly. That also factors into this decision, apparently. Have you heard anything about just how costly or time-consuming it's been?

PD: No, I haven't. I don't ever recall this being an issue prior. So, I do know that the alternative that regional centre offered is to buy metal signs to show off inside of the schools are extremely costly. And, in fact, I think they're more costly. So, I guess I'm a little confused by the cost being a factor. I mean, we're talking about flags that are flown, you know, maybe a few times a year, or part of a year.

BM: Cost aside, how do you feel about, you know, whatever shape that flag takes or whatever material is used, that the symbol is not going to be on the outside of schools, but instead inside the schools, which, which the centre does say will be in highly-visible areas like school foyers, gyms, or cafeterias.

PD: Well, I am concerned. And I'm concerned about the potential message this could send to our students. It's important that they see themselves reflected in our schools and our school community. And that should be the case for not only the inside, but the outside of our schools as well. You know, we want to promote that we have an inclusive, safe and inclusive environment for our schools. And not seeing these different cultures being represented could have an impact.

CH: That was Peter Day, the president of the Nova Scotia Teachers Union talking to Bob Murphy on Maritime Noon. After the news broke, Nova Scotia's education minister, Brendan Maguire, said at a press conference that all schools in the province should continue flying flags representing diverse communities.

[instrumental]

FOA: Tardigrades In Space

CH: Nina Munteanu makes a great case, but she's got some competition. Tough...and weird. As you heard earlier on the show, she's one of thousands of readers who submitted entries to the Guardian's Invertebrate of the Year competition, in hopes of seeing their spineless selections crowned king, or queen…or both. She's a staunch advocate of the Bdelloid rotifer. And I'm pretty sure she has Nil, for one, convinced. But it may be an uphill battle persuading animals lovers around the world to back her backboneless fav over another perennial pick.

SOUNDCLIP

NM: Nobody knows about them. Everybody seems to know about the tardigrade or the water bear. You know, the cute moss piglet? Because, because of all the propaganda. But nobody knows about the Bdelloid, so. [NK laughs]

CH: The tardigrade! The invertebrate featured by The Guardian in today's installment from its shortlist. Yet another unforgivable instance of pro-tardigrade propaganda, I might add. Although we're guilty of that ourselves. Take Petra Rettberg, who spoke to our former most, Carol Off, in 2008. At the time, Ms. Rettberg was a researcher with the German Space Agency's Institute of Aerospace Medicine. And she had recently helped send a group of tardigrades into the vacuum of space.

SOUNDCLIP

PETRA RETTBERG: Water bears -- or tardigrades -- are very small animals. They look like small bears. They have eight legs. They move. They have claws. They have eyes or something like eyes. And they're normal habitat is on the surface of mosses. But these mosses might become dry from time to time. And under these conditions, these water bears are able to form a certain desiccation-resistant form called tuns. And in this state they are able to survive for a long time without any water.

CAROL OFF: So, is this why they're so good for sending into space?

PR: Well, they were exposed to the space conditions in low Earth orbit on a Russian satellite called Photon M3. And on the outside of the satellite, there was a special facility built by the European Space Agency. And this smaller facility has the shape of a pen. Therefore, it's called Biopen. And in this pen, many different biological chemical, but also symmetric experiments were exposed in the lit and in the bottom of this pen. The satellite was brought into low Earth orbit. The pen was opened by Taylor Command, and the different experiments were exposed to space conditions for 10 days.

CO: So, these tardigrades actually lived in space? Like, they're outside the spaceship, outside of everything?

PR: Yes. Yes.

CO: And how did they survive?

PR: Well, how is an interesting question. And that is what we want to investigate in detail in the future. We were really happy that they survived without any problems. And some, but only very few of them were able to survive even the extra-terrestrial solar UV radiation. And they have a very low metabolic activity. And it's a kind of resting state that allows them to survive even harsh environmental conditions.

CH: From Our Archives, Petra Rettberg of the German Institute of Aerospace Medicine talking with Carol Off in 2008 -- after sending tardigrades to space.

[lounge jazz]

Periodic Table Of Snow

Guest: Russ Scholl

CH: If it snows at this time of year, Canadians have a lot of words for it -- most of which I cannot legally repeat on the air. But at any time of year, our snow vocabulary is pretty vast. Just how many words there are for snow -- particularly in the north -- has been up for debate for a long time. But it's probably true that no one has more words for it than skiers: Corn. Creamed corn. Butter. Mashed potatoes. Cauliflower. Chocolate chip. Sugar. Not a list of ingredients for a gross cookie recipe. According to ski instructor and snow expert Russ Scholl, they're different names for snow. He's been skiing for over 60 years, and has organized 133 different terms for snow into the Periodic Table of Snow. We reached Mr. Scholl in Breckenridge, Colorado.

NK: Russ, I know a lot of people are seeing different types of snow outside their window today, wherever they're listening from, and they might not be that thrilled about it given the date on the calendar, even if they're used to snow. What we were seeing in, in our city, I think looking at your table would be a number 18: blower. A light, low-density snow. It can blow into the air, and blows into face while skiing, as you put it. These, these descriptions are clearly written with love. But, but what would you say to listeners who don't care what kind it is? They don't want to see it right now.

RUSS SCHOLL: I'd say be patient people. Spring is clearly on the way, at least here, here in Colorado. It'll be a distant memory.

NK: Was part of this project. Obviously, you love snow and you love skiing; it's what you do. But, but what really did motivate you to, to make this periodic table of snow?

RS: Well, I, I love words, since I was a kid.

NK: So do we, yeah!

RS: And especially slang words. Slang terminology always fascinates me. And as a ski instructor for well over 40 years -- and I've taught all across the U.S. -- you know, I would hear these terms that people would use, either customers in my lessons or other staff and other professionals. And I started jotting them down in a notebook. And that became the basis for this table that I eventually put together.

NK: And most of the snow in the table is grouped by, you know, quality. Again, in the context of conditions for skiing. So there's exquisite snow, ideal snow, good snow, marginal snow, tricky snow, and you call this snow? [both chuckle] You know, when you talk about the 102 types of snow that fall into those categories, is there really a big difference between all of them, or, or did you find yourselves stretching and getting creative to try to fill up this chart?

RS: Oh no, no. There are numerous terms out there. And I, you know, I didn't just grab whatever, if I heard something, I threw it in. I did quite a bit of research, and I made sure that there were three or four sources that would use those terms, and had a very close definition for what they were before I decided, and settled on it, and put it into the chart. There are huge differences here. I mean, sticky snow, which is way over on the tricky snow side of it, is way different than cold smoke, which is a supremely desirable powder snow. And, you know, snow is just an amazing material. Is so plastic. It changes. It changes with temperature and sunshine. It changes with the wind. It's just remarkable what can happen with snow as fresh as when it falls, and then years later, sometimes, you know, days later, and then years later sometimes in a glacier's situation.

NK: It does kind of take your breath away, even if you don't love snow. You almost make me want to try skiing one more time. Almost, not there yet, [RS chuckles] but let's keep, let's keep talking. Number seven is: chockable. Have you ever choked on snow?

RS: Oh boy, do I have a story about that. [NK chuckles] I always, I thought this was a great term. You know, there's several terms that jump out at me as just a very, very vivid way of describing snow. And when I was on my honeymoon with, with my bride, we went, I convinced her to go to Alta, Utah, of all places, which is one of the, in the U.S., is one of the absolute top powder snow ski areas -- ski resorts. We, during the week we were there, of course, we had about a 30-inch dump of snow, fresh powder, and I was so excited. I didn't get a chance to ski much powder up to that point. So, I did what a lot of powder hounds do, and they say no friends on a powder day. [NK chuckles] I left my bride and headed out to a bowl by myself. And as I'm skiing down, trying to get some momentum and all, I noticed the powder snow was, was kind of weight, in waves, coming up my thighs onto my abdomen. And all of a sudden, this wave broke in front of my face as I inhaled, and I had to stop skiing. My clothes, my throat, it was like a baby powder. The sensation was wild.

NK: Oh my goodness, I can imagine. Dangerous.

RS: Yeah. Yeah. So, I coughed and choked, and, and you know, then realized and started laughing, oh, well, this is, this is the way I get retribution, my wife gets retribution.

NK: I think, yeah, my mind did go there. [RS laughs] My mind did go there, Russ. I'm not going to lie.

RS: Yeah, I'm sure.

NK: But I'm glad you're okay.

RS: We still laugh about it today.

NK: I'm glad. Well, I'm glad that didn't ruin the trajectory of the relationship. People are ordering prints from your website. What do you make of the reaction?

RS: Oh, it's a blast. You know, I, I always want it to be, to, to start a business for much of my life. But I was too chicken, too scared. But with something like this, I was able to start this little business. Not so much to make money. Yeah, I, I promised my wife I would, you know, cover costs and expenses, and maybe I'll get there in a few more months. Who knows? But it's for fun. And the stories I hear from customers, or just the reaction when they inquire or purchase it and come back and say, this is amazing. This is so much fun. That's, that's really what the, what the motivator was.

NK: Well, this was fun, this conversation, Russ. Thanks for making time for us.

RS: Hey, I got a quick story for you that you might like.

NK: Okay.

RS: So, when I was in college freshman year, I took a chemistry class called Chemistry 101, whatever it was.

NK: Yeah.

RS: And I did so horribly in it. I basically, I almost flunked out of college because of that one course. To say the least, I hate chemistry. [NK chuckles] And to have the opportunity to come back and get retribution after all these years, to use the periodic table of elements is just, it's a way to put a feather in someone's cap. [laughing]

NK: That's great, Russ. Thank you so much. I'm glad we could speak.

RS: Absolutely. My pleasure.

CH: Russ Scholl is an alpine ski instructor at Breckenridge Ski School, and the inventor of the Periodic Table of Snow. We reached him in Breckenridge, Colorado.

The AIH Transcript For March 25, 2025

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