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The AIH transcript for March 31, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: One minute, they were on solid ground. The next, a deadly earthquake was shaking Southeast Asia. A journalist in Bangkok describes the moment it hit -- and what she found when she rushed to the scene of a building collapse.

CH: App to no good. A Democratic Congresswoman explains why she's introduced legislation condemning the use of the unsecured communications app Signal by Trump administration officials -- even though it probably won't pass.

NK: When the chips are down. One of the Neal Brothers explains his company's efforts to move their snack manufacturing out of the U.S. and into Canada -- now that it's crunch time.

CH: Dua, good job. Or, for clarity: good job, Dua. A judge finds that Dua Lipa did not plagiarize her hit song Levitating from a song called Wiggle and Giggle All Night, which, unfortunately, sounds even worse than you imagine it does.

NK: Trick or treatment. Donkey warts to cure beardlessness, crushed weasel testicles for fertility -- just two of the dubious cures in a new exhibition about the magic and madness of medieval medicine.

CH: And...you snooze you win. We'll check in with the organizer of the March Napness tournament -- which pits hibernating bears against each other to see who can sleep the longest.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio that hates to be the bear of bed news.

Part 1: SE Asia Earthquake, Neal Brothers, March Napness

SE Asia Earthquake

Guest: Panisa Aemocha

CH: Earthquakes are rare in Southeast Asia. So, when one hit in the early afternoon today, no one, and nothing, was prepared. As we go to air tonight, we know that more than 140 people in Myanmar are dead, and hundreds more are injured. Rescuers are frantically digging through the rubble, looking for survivors. Images show cracked roads, a building on its side, a pagoda collapsing. The AFP has reported that there were "rows of wounded" at a hospital emergency department in the capital, Naypyidaw. Panisa Aemocha is a BBC reporter in Thailand -- which also suffered damage from the quake. She was at the scene after an under construction high rise collapsed in Bangkok. We reached her in Bangkok, earlier today.

NK: Panisa, I know you just got home, but from speaking to people and what you've been seeing, how are people feeling in Bangkok tonight?

PANISA AEMOCHA: Yeah, so at the moment, right, it's like several hours post the event, things start to calm down a little bit. But if we reverse time and go back at around 1 p.m., when the Thai people -- especially in Bangkok -- start to feel the shakiness on the ground. And also with the that viral script videos of that building collapse, people were super anxious for the next two, three hour people have to stay on the, on the street, just like sitting outside of the street because they are not advised or allowed in some places to go back into the building. And it was such a horrific, and for me, I'm 30 years old, and all my life, we never experienced that. So, earthquake is not something that's familiar to Thai people, especially in the capital city.

NK: Panisa, where were you when you first started to feel those tremors?

PA: I was actually at home. So we're doing working from home, and I was doing some training when suddenly I felt some dizziness. And I thought that, oh my god, my blood pressure must have gone so low that I started to feel the dizzness. But then I heard my neighbour's shout, it was like, everybody go out, everybody go out. Then I started realizing, oh, something is wrong. And even on the ground floor, you can actually feel that the ground was shaking, so it was actually terrifying.

NK: There is that high rise under construction in Bangkok, which has become sort of the central image -- and a terrifying one at that -- of what this earthquake has done. The videos are difficult for people to watch, certainly. You raced to that scene to do your work as a journalist. You were there I think in less than an hour, right?

PA: Yes, 45 minutes. So initially, when I feel that, like, we of course kind of like aware at the moment I'm aware that it's a earthquake. I know that okay, now I must work now. And then also, around the same time we see because the viral video was posted super quickly just after it's collapsed, so I rushed to the scenes, and I was there around 45 minutes after the collapse.

NK: And what did you see when you arrived at the scene?

PA: Yeah, it was such a distressing moment. I got to talk to two workers who worked inside of that building. So one person was only 18 years old. So he was actually working on the sixth floor from that 30-story. And then, he walking down to the first floor. And fortunately for him, the ground was start shaking the moment he reached the ground floor. So, he kind of looked up to see what's happening because everybody initial thought was like, oh, what is wrong with my body? You wouldn't think that it's earthquake because that is not something familiar to Thai people. So, he looked up and he saw that the crane was like big machinery was actually shaking. And he said that within one minute, everything just like collapsed, and is pitch black. There's smoke everywhere. At that moment, he just ran for his life. So, that is the story. But fortunately, he survived.

NK: What about his, what about his colleagues? How many people were there?

PA: I asked him, oh, what about your colleagues? And he said that normally he work on the fifth floor, but then at the moment when everything was like collapsed and he kind of, like, be able to survive and to flee the scene, he said three people went missing. And he told me that one person that went missing is the person that when on the 10th floor earlier before the collapse or before the earthquake because that person need to go to the bathroom, and he disappeared. They can't find him after all the collapse.

NK: What else have you heard from officials about how many people they're looking for?

PA: So, at the moment, before 10 p.m. Thai time, it was reported that the overall, the total of 69 people was missing. But now, the latest the latest finding is that eight bodies was found tonight. So from that 69, eight body was already found. And initially, we have seen the report saying that three people have been declared dead.

NK: And as you were there, you saw some of that recovery happening.

PA: Yes, around an hour after it collapsed and everything, all the rescue teams, all police and all military personnel were already, everybody just pulled their strings and worked together to try to rescue people. Around 4 local time, we have seen two bodies carry out of the collapse.

NK: And elsewhere across Bangkok, what is the situation like in terms of damage?

PA: We've seen a lot of report, you've seen netizens talking online, showing pictures of their apartment, especially for those who live in the high-rise building. They've seen cracking, you've seen mirror is kind of breaking, and it has been advised tonight that people who live above the 20th floor is not advised to stay living there tonight. And some of the people reported to just book the hotel for the night, but we also have help from the government, and also help from the local Bangkok authority as well. Some temples also open their space for people who fear to go back to stay at their condominium to stay in these facilities.

NK: Your building is okay? You feel safe being there?

PA: Yes, my house is okay.

NK: Okay. We're talking with you in Bangkok, obviously, but in neighboring Myanmar, in addition to the aftermath of this earthquake, there was already, you know, an armed uprising, military government fighting in that. What is your sense of how this is unfolding there, and the impact of this earthquake?

PA: We have seen reports that the government -- the military government -- is looking for help and there has been a lot of report on death and casualties over in Myanmar as well. So, I reckon they still need a lot help coming in from neighbouring country, or any country that could potentially provide them with health. And it will be really needed for them as well because it's more severe than in Bangkok and in neighbouring countries.

NK: Panisa, I appreciate your time.

PA: Thank you so much. You have a good one.

NK: You, too.

CH: BBC reporter Panisa Aemocha in Bangkok. We reached her there earlier today.

[newsy theme]

Neal Brothers

Guest: Peter Neal

CH: Peter Neal has been busy making chips. Corn. Not micro. Canadian ones! Well, Canadian-owned ones. Made in America. Which is what he's here to talk about. Mr. Neal is the co-founder of Neal Brothers Foods, alongside Chris Neal who is -- let me just check my notes here -- his brother. Their company is Canadian, but their production facilities aren't. And they've talked about changing that for a long time. Donald Trump's tariff war recently kicked those talks into another gear. But they soon discovered that moving manufacturing north is easier said than done. Now, they've had a breakthrough, though. We reached Peter Neal in Vancouver.

NK: Peter, Neal Brothers chips are Canadian-owned but not Canadian made. What was the moment that convinced you it was time for that to change?

PETER NEAL: Well, about three or four weeks ago, [chuckling] it seems just like just about everybody else in this country, we started, I think for the first time in generations, we started coming together as a country in unity against these tariffs, and our former friend south of the border. And realized we needed to make a change for all sorts of good reasons, potential threats from tariffs, and the potential increase in price. We've seen an incredible upswing in the dollar, so it's been a difficult one for us. And also, just purely from let's stand together in Canada, and let's support each other. And we found an opportunity with a producer in the middle of B.C., in Kamloops, and I thought this would be a great time.

NK: I want to talk more about that in just a moment. And obviously, there are a lot of business owners weighing their options, considering whether to make this kind of change. There are complicating factors, I'm sure, for different industries, different sectors. But for you, the fact that your chips in particular are different than many other corn chips was an issue. How so?

PN: Well, originally, our corn chips were made with friends of ours, of a family from Mexico in the early nineties. And they did, uh, they were producing a chip that was very, you know, traditional Mexican way of doing things, which was bringing in actual corn kernels and bags, grinding them, and then producing a chip. And there, there are a couple of folks who do them in Canada, but for them, for themselves only. They don't, they wouldn't partner with us.

NK: And that method is instead of just using corn flour?

PN: Yes. Yeah. So it's, uh, there's a lot of folks in Canada who bring in corn flour, they make a paste with it, and then they form a tortilla. And it just has a very different taste, and a very different texture. Good, just different. And it was hard for us to get our heads around -- my brother, Chris and I -- to get our head around having the Neil Brothers name on a bag that was a different format than what we have been using for 30-plus years.

NK: So, where did you even begin before you found that right match?

PN: [chuckling] Well, my brother and I, and three awesome partners own a distribution company in Canada as well. So, we represent well over 200 brands. And we were already in talks to work with these folks to sell their tortilla chips the way they are in their brand name, Fresh is Best, and also their salsa, Fresh Salsa; it's amazing. And we wanted to help this company, who were really only regional in Western Canada, and build their brand across the country. And this gentleman, Colin McGaffin, from Fresh is Best, had had some real hardship losing his business partner and his life partner, Lisa, a few years ago. And we thought, oh my God, we could do two good things. [chuckling] We could build this brand across the country, which absolutely, you know, benefits my company, but it also would, would help this gentleman and the folks in the town of Kamloops.

NK: in any relationship -- business or otherwise -- there has to be that connection, and that thing that brings you together and makes you feel like it's a right fit. But they're not equipped for making chips using corn niblets. So, how did you make your decision and weigh that against that right fit feeling?

PN: Well, first of all, my brother and I and my partners, the Elistin and Otis family, we all felt the same way. It wasn't just transactional, it's working with people. And Colin is really good people. So, that was checked off in the box. And then we went and looked at the plant, and looked at the folks who work in that plant. And they were a people-first organization. And it just felt right. You walk into a place, your gut feeling says, right, you look in the corners, and look underneath the tables. And everything looks good in terms of the safety and the food quality. And furthermore, we can actually produce a tortilla chip here because they've got, I'd say, 70 or 80 per cent of the equipment in place anyway. A packaging machine is very expensive, and if it's working right, it can package anything. The frying side of it, the baking side of it, the, you know, the whole assembly line, essentially, if you think of it like a tortilla chip on a line, like a card on the line. So, they had all that in place. I just need to -- or we need to -- invest in a large vat kettle and then a grinding machine. We don't think it'll take a whole lot to do it. Can it happen overnight? No. But long-term, you know, knowing that, that I was part of producing something with someone like this, in a town like that, with our name on it, man, that would just be total pride. So, I'm hoping that we can get that done sooner than later.

NK: And when do you think fully made in Canada Neil Brothers chips will be up for sale?

PN: Well, you know what? I always like to say the impossible, so that's tomorrow. And that's not going to happen. [both chuckle] But I'm hoping that late fall, we could have something up and going.

NK: You know, we heard about your story in a feature in the Toronto Star this week. You're on As It Happens now, so there's certainly good publicity for your company here. Was that part of the equation for you and your brother?

PN: Oh God, no. And I mean, no, absolutely not. No. You know, necessity is the mother of invention. We're in desperate and very different times. Normalcy had left the room in terms of business planning. And we had to think quickly and make a decision. So yeah, there's a silver lining. The silver lining is working with Colin and his folks there, some new partners. And then the silver lining is, is, you know, we, hopefully, we'll soon have a bag of chips made in Canada by really good people. And I'd like to say sold by really good people, but that's just me. both chuckling]

NK: What is your advice to, to other business owners who might be listening, and again, are weighing these kinds of changes? But even to customers. I mean, I think maybe people are underestimating how difficult it is to make a change like this.

PN: It is difficult to make a change. And it's difficult to get information. Someone recently said, well, there's an app for that. Yeah, well, is it, how good is that app? Is your favourite coffee chain really Canadian? Is your favorite clothing line really Canadian? We are Canadian-owned. We've got 150 mouths to feed. We keep all our money in here. It's, yeah, they're made there, but I prefer them made in Canada. And that's why we're doing what we can to fix that.

NK: Peter, I thank you for your time.

PN: Thank you so much for your time.

CH: Peter Neal is the co-founder of Neal Brothers Foods. We reached him in Vancouver.

[jaunty piano]

MArch Napness

Guest: Claire LaFrance

CH: Brackets of favourites and underdogs. Dedicated viewers tuning in from around the world. An upset in the first round, as a heavyweight falls. That's right, if it's March, it must be March Napness. Now, I should mention the name of this annual event has caused a little confusion around the office; some people kept insisting I meant something called [scoffs] "March Madness", which apparently has something to do with…exactly! Volleyball, I don’t know. But no: I'm talking, obviously, about the enormously popular competition March Napness -- the work of the animal welfare organization Four Paws, which pits hibernating brown bears against each other -- to see who snoozes the longest. Claire LaFrance is with Four Paws. And we reached her in Boston, Massachusetts.

NK: Claire, March Madness and March Napness are clearly both focused on endurance, though very different kinds of endurance. Why do you think a bear's commitment to sleep deserves to be celebrated?

CLAIRE LAFRANCE: Oh my gosh, isn't sleep something we can all relate to, and not get enough of?

NK: [chuckling] Yes.

NK: I mean, does he just have a lot on his mind? Is he worried? Are there stressors? [CLF chuckles] What is going on? Now I'm worried about Tyson.

CLF: I know. I know. Well, don't worry too much [NK chuckles] because Tyson decided to actually go back to sleep, but he is out of the competition.

NK: Okay. Right. Because, I mean, fair is fair. [CLF chuckles] And so before he went back to sleep, what was he doing in the interim?

CLF: Yeah, so he came out of his den, he nuzzled around some leaves a little bit, I think he repacked his sleeping area, I don't know, he might have grabbed a snack, maybe an apple or some fresh fruit from our caretakers, and he just kind of bedded down. But we had to come up with some ground rules so that, you know, this competition is fair. So, our bear experts and our bear caretakers decided -- and we decided -- that if a bear is seen outside their den for five consecutive days, that means they are actually awake and out of the competition.

NK: And other rules?

CLF: [laughing] Um, I mean, other rules, it's, it sleeping or awake. [both laugh] So there's, there's kind of just one rule. I mean to play, you need to fill out a bracket that, that should be pretty obvious. Um, you know, all of our bare bios are on our website. So, if you really wanted to do your research and see who, who slept the longest last year, who woke up early, that's all there, too. Um, yeah, we've learned a lot. This is our third year doing March Napness.

NK: And where do things stand now that Tyson is out? How many bears are left?

CLF: As of Week Four, I believe, unless something has happened in the next, in the, in the last couple days, we have 13 bears still in the running.

NK: And where are these bears located?

CLF: Yeah, so we have over 135 bears we take care of in our sanctuaries around the world. This competition is mainly focused on our European brown bears in six sanctuaries across Europe. So, we have Austria, Germany, Ukraine, Switzerland, all coming together and competing for the crown of hosting the sleepiest bear.

NK: There's, there, there are interesting competitors, Masha. And then there's Mascha with a "c".

CLF: Yep.

NK: How does that complicate things?

CLF: It's tricky. [laughing] It's very tricky, yeah. And they are actually so far as they're in the semi-finals with Mark. So right now, as you can imagine, we have all m number, m names, which is kind of bizarre. But, um, yeah, not to be confused, Masha with Mascha. [chuckling]

NK: And how, I mean, is one doing better at this stage?

CLF: Only time will tell. Yeah, I cannot, I cannot access their secrets. And I cannot give their secrets away. [laughing]

NK: Well, yeah, I guess, yeah. It's just, they keep sleeping, so whoever, whoever, how do you even pick favourites in that kind of scenario, right? Because it's --

CLF: It's tough, yeah.

NK: Is there any bear that's really better at it?

CLF: You know, I think our bear Mark has really truly represented March Napness. His story has appeared all over the media, of course. He's kind of a fan favourite, if you will. He is, he's, he was called a teddy bear because his looks are so fluffy, and cute, and adorable, but we want to remind you that Mark is a fierce competitor [NK chuckles] and should not be trifled with. [chuckling] He was saved from over 20 years in a pretty small concrete cage. And he actually started hibernating last year. So, last year was his first time in the competition. And he has just won over people's hearts. So, Mark is, is, so far as, as right now, Mark is still in the competition.

NK: And a lot of people, it sounds like, are rooting for Mark. Is this, is this really at the heart of it about raising awareness of what these bears are up against when they're not sleeping?

CLF: [chuckling] Absolutely. There's, unfortunately, a pretty dark side to this tournament, which is the past of these bears. They've been rescued from pretty appalling conditions around the world. Unfortunately, captive bears face many trials and tribulations. Bears are exploited for entertainment, they're exploited for their body parts as tourist attractions. And our mission is to end that suffering, and provide species-appropriate homes for them for the rest of their lives -- the ones we can help, of course. And, you know, March Nappness is just a fun way to engage the public. And using a pretty common topic, which is sleep, where we can all relate to and nobody's getting enough of, and really pull people into these storylines that are just so full of hope, and resiliency, and determination. It is truly just such a pleasure to be able to share these bears' stories with the world.

NK: Thanks for this, Claire.

CLF: Awesome, thank you so much, Nil. Very nice talking to you.

CH: That was Claire LaFrance who works at Four Paws. We reached her in Boston, Massachusetts.

[bluegrass]

Dua Lipa Lawsuit

CH: The year is 1979. A brand-new, less-sticky bubble gum called "Hubba Bubba" is flying off the shelves. The hit sitcom Three's Company has introduced millions of viewers to the idea of hilarious misunderstandings. And in The Netherlands, this banger is rocketing up the charts.

SOUNDCLIP

[Wiggle and Giggle All Night by Cory Daye/pop]

CH: Cory Daye, with Wiggle and Giggle All Night, a song that was released in 1979, and pretty much stayed there. Some songs are timeless classics -- that one is extremely timeful. Now, fast forward to 2020. There are no important bubble gum breakthroughs, no one can leave the house, and everything is the worst -- except this song:

SOUNDCLIP

[Levitating by Dua Lipa/pop]

CH: Dua Lipa, with her worldwide hit Levitating. You can really hear the similarities between those two songs. But only if you listen really closely, and only if you're L. Russell Brown and Sandy Linzer, the songwriters behind Wiggle and Giggle All Night. They sued Dua Lipa, insisting she'd plagiarized part of their melody. This was a brave move on their part. Not because they were taking on a modern pop music giant, but because they were publicly admitting they'd written a song called Wiggle and Giggle All Night. I don't like saying that title, and I didn't like hearing that song. And Judge Katherine Polk Failla didn't like their lawsuit: yesterday, she ruled that any similarities between Levitating and...the other one are purely generic. This is a victory for common sense, or maybe just a victory for songs I don't mind referring to. And the plaintiffs insist they'll appeal, but I hope they don't. I mean, that decision didn't really leave any wiggle room.

[R&B]

Part 2: Signal Denouncement Legislation, Medieval Medicine Exhibit

Signal Denouncement Legislation

Guest: Julie Johnson

CH: Democrats have made a lot of TV appearances to denounce the Signal communications scandal. But amid all the talk, one Democrat is taking some action. Texas Congresswoman Julie Johnson has announced that she is introducing a piece of legislation officially condemning the use of the unsecured communications app by the vice president, the defense secretary, and other senior officials. We reached Congresswoman Johnson in Dallas, Texas.

NK: Congresswoman Johnson, what do you hope an official resolution condemnation achieves?

JULIE JOHNSON: Well, I hope it highlights to the Trump administration that they cannot be so reckless, you know, with our national security. And engage in such disastrous, careless behaviour. And I think it also gives the Congress an opportunity to stand up and say, push back against what the administration's doing, and put Republicans on the line to say, are you going to accept this, or are you going to condemn it?

NK: The Republican speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, spoke about this earlier this week. Let's listen to that now.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE JOHNSON: There were no war plans discussed. There was no classified material sent on that thread. The White House counsel's looking into the matter, looking into how this other number was inadvertently added. Obviously, that was a mistake, and a serious one. But I just want to say, I mean, thanks to President Trump and his strong leadership, and the, everybody on that group chat, the leaders on that chat are extraordinary people. I know them all personally. They're patriots. They're doing a great job for the country. And that was a successful mission.

NK: When you hear those comments, how would you respond to Speaker Johnson?

JJ: Well he's just not telling the truth to the American people. It was absolute, uh...military plans. It was absolutely classified material that were put on those, on that Signal chat. And it was reckless behaviour, uh, from the people on the trump administration and reckless behaviour for those on, people on that chat. And it's just really disheartening that there's so many, you know, people in the House and in the Congress on the Republican side who are just puppets to the president, who are unwilling to stand up for what's right. The American people know that this is outrageous, and that's why we've seen so much of an outcry from folks across the country to show alarms at how this is happening. It's just really inexcusable.

NK: Have you seen and heard an outcry, though, from regular folks, if I can put it that way, constituents, and not, you know, obviously it's making headlines, and there is a lot of concern. I mentioned the veterans as well, family members of veterans, but what are you hearing?

JJ: Well, yes, of course there's outcry. I mean you know people are very alarmed. You know, there's, uh, you know, I have a VA in my district. I have a lot of veterans in my district, and, and people understand the consequences of war gone bad. And so, it's a very alarming, and yes, of course, I've heard from people. People are outraged by it

NK: You and the Democrats in Congress, as you well know, don't appear to have the votes for a motion like this to actually pass. So, if it is doomed in effect from the very start, why introduce it at all?

JJ: Well, because I think democrats always need to be pushing the issue. I mean we want to, uh, give Republicans an opportunity to stand up for what's right. We want to give them an opportunity the vote for our national security, and vote for protocols to keep our country safe. And if they're not going to do that, and if they are not going to stand up for that, then the American people need that understand that, too, and take that into account when they vote in the upcoming election.

NK: In your press release about this, you wrote, quote, behind closed doors, Republicans know this was a grave error. In front of cameras, they stay silent or make excuses for this inexcusable behaviour, unquote. Why do you think that is happening still?

JJ: You know, I, I don't know what's worse, the true believers who believe this is all okay, or the people who know it's not okay but won't stand up for what they know is right? And there's a lot of Republicans in that category. They know that this is outrageous, and they know the this is an egregious error on the part of the, um, administration that really has the ability to really compromise our men and women of the military. And also, compromise our national security and our national interests. But the fact that they're so afraid of the president, and they're so afraid of Elon Musk, and they are so afraid of a primary to stand up for what is right, is really, it's really so disappointing, and it's a lot of what's wrong with our politics.

NK: So, it sounds like you don't see any signs that, that other Republican lawmakers might speak up on this or break ranks with the White House.

JJ: Well, they haven't yet, but we'll see if any of them do. We're going to give them the opportunity to, that's for sure.

NK: Speaker Johnson did say in that clip we heard, he did call it a mistake. That's a bit of an acknowledgment. Why doesn't it go far enough in your view?

NK: Is it frustrating? Does it feel futile if you are appearing to play by the rules and maybe the administration in some cases is not?

JJ: No. I mean, I don't think it's ever futile to, I mean, yeah, obviously, I wish we were in charge. And sure, I wish we had the ability to call up legislation, and set the agenda, and exercise our subpoena power but we don't. So, yes, some of our tools in our toolbox are under the control of the Republicans, but that doesn't mean that we don't use the tools we have left. And so, I'm going to always try. That's what my folks elected me to do

NK: You're a new member of Congress; you were just elected this past November. What is the biggest lesson you've learned so far?

JJ: you know that, uh, unfortunately, too many people are more concerned about the reelection than actually legislating for the American people. And there's a lot of good people in the, in the halls of Congress. There's lot of people who have good intentions. But, unfortunately, not all of them stand up for the values that they know it's right. And that's the disappointing part.

NK: Congresswoman Johnson, I appreciate your time, thank you.

JJ: Any time, thank you for having me.

CH: Congresswoman Julie Johnson represents the 32nd Congressional District. We reached her in Dallas, Texas.

[percussive]

Trump/Carney Call

CH: Today, Liberal Leader Mark Carney had to put his campaign on hold to pick up the phone. On the other end was U.S. President Donald Trump. It was the first time the leaders had spoken to each other since Mr. Carney became prime minister -- and it comes days before the U.S. is scheduled to put tariffs on all automotive imports. After that call, Mr. Trump changed his tone somewhat where Canada is concerned. He told reporters the conversation was “very, very good”. At a campaign event in Montreal, Mr. Carney said that the two leaders had agreed to begin wider trade negotiations after the election. But said there was no sign that Canada would be exempt from Sunday's tariffs. Here is what the Liberal leader said about the phone call, and potential retaliatory tariffs.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: This was a call between two leaders of their respective governments, between two sovereign nations. It was a called focused on, the spirit of the call was both cordial and focused on making progress. And that's why you had several things. One is an agreement, which is what I wanted, but I think he wanted as well, and I've been clear about this for a number of weeks, to have a comprehensive discussion on our broader economic and security partnership. We agreed to that. As also to have intensive discussions between our ministers. So, positive, cordial, constructive, focused on action, exactly what we want.

REPORTER: And did you and the premiers decide on anything in the meeting today?

MC: Well, what we, the purpose of the meeting today, which was a little, just under an-hour-and-a-half, was to, for, largely for me to debrief the premiers on where we stood. Secondly, to hear directly from them on their perspectives on two things. One is on the countermeasures that the government of Canada, these decisions of the government of Canada, countermeasures the government of Canada could take. So, wanted to have their input for that. It's very important. Secondly, to continue the discussion on how we're going to build this economy, and to reinforce those discussions. And in both respects, it was very timely and helpful to have those discussions. Thank you.

PRESS SECRETARY: Next question.

ASHLEY BURKE: Good afternoon, Ashley Burke, CBC News. President Trump's tone changed today when he talked about Canada. It seemed more positive, and same thing with the call. Do you, do you trust that? Is there a strategy there?

MC: There's always a strategy in a negotiation. Look, I think we've been clear about our priorities, how we're going to approach this. We've been clear that we have other options. We have other trading options, which we're going to continue to build, to be absolutely clear. We're going to continue to develop those trading options. We've also been clear about our priorities here domestically, and how we are going to build out this country. Perhaps there was a different impression before about how strong Canada really is.

AB: You've said that you wouldn't sit down with Mr. Trump and talk to him unless he respects Canada sovereignty. Did you convey that to the president today? And if so, what did he say?

MC: The president respected Canada's sovereignty today, both in his private and public comments.

CH: Liberal Leader Mark Carney speaking at a campaign event in Montreal, today.

[percussive jazz]

Medieval Medicine Exhibit

Guest: James Freeman

CH: These days, there is no shortage of videos and posts and articles pushing us to try the latest health and wellness trends -- and promising that they'll change your life. Things like wearing tape on your mouth to sleep. Or sticking your face in a bucket full of ice water in the morning. Guzzling raw milk. Crushing weasel testicles. Influencers aren't doing that last one. It's not from this century. It's from the 15th century -- and it's part of a new exhibition looking at the method behind the madness of medieval medicine. James Freeman is the medieval manuscripts specialist at the Cambridge University Library, and the curator of the Curious Cures exhibition. We reached him in Cambridge.

NK: James, I know the public hasn't had a chance to see what you've put together yet, but you have been taking your colleagues -- lucky colleagues -- on the tour. How have they been reacting?

JAMES FREEMAN: With a combination of wonderment and excitement, and in places, revulsion. [NK chuckles] I think it's fair to say. [chuckling]

NK: Wrapping all of that in, are they, are they as, as, as obsessed as you are at this point?

JF: Well, I certainly hope they will be by the end of the exhibition run. [NK chuckles] They've come for tours that, you know, should be about 15 or 20 minutes long, but I tend to give them more like an hour because I can't help myself. [NK laughs] I can talk the hind legs off a donkey, as they say.

NK: I won't ask you if a donkey's hind legs have any medicinal properties, or maybe you --

JF: Well, funnily enough, yes, they do.

NK: [chuckling] Of course they do.

JF: So, one of the remedies that we've translated and are showing as part of the exhibition is a cure for beardlessness.

NK: Oh!

JF: Which recommends gathering certain calluses that grow on donkey's legs and fall off, and which you, I can't remember precisely what you do, but you process them in some way, and then you apply it to your face. And it is of such strength that it's effective even on women, apparently.

NK: I don't need help in that department, unfortunately. [both laugh]

JF: Nor do I. I could do with more hair on top of my head, but I'm fine in the chin area.

NK: We haven't even gotten to crushed weasel testicles yet, James, [JF laughs] and that's what everyone wants to know about. What were they used for?

JF: So, they were a treatment for infertility. And the manuscript in which they were found was copied by a Carmelite friar called Richard Tennant. And he's an interesting example of a broader phenomenon, which is friars who were mendicants, so members of a religious order who were out in the world preaching and working as confessors. And they gained privileged access to people's homes, they studied medicine, and there's lots of evidence to point to them practicing -- and particularly on women. And he describes this recipe as being a true medicine, and often proven to cure a woman however infertile she may be. And it instructs that three or four weasel testicles -- as well as a similar quantity of mouse ear, which is a kind of plant -- should be burned in an earthenware pot, and then ground up with the juice extracted from the same plant, and then made into little kind of pellets in the manner of a hazelnut kernel, which should then be placed so deeply in the woman's private part --

NK: Oh my.

JF: That they touch the uterus, and left there for three days, during which she should abstain from sexual intercourse altogether. And then after that period, she's allowed to have sex with a man. And according to this recipe, she should conceive without delay.

NK: Is this the point where we should say please absolutely do not try this at home? [chuckling]

JF: I, yes, please do not try any of this at home.

NK: We'll just underline that three times. [JF laughs] And there was also one for nosebleeds?

JF: Yes. So, there is a manuscript at the University Library here that contains a text that's, I believe, not found in any other book. And he records that he proved a treatment for nosebleeds on a man in Stanford, in Lincolnshire, by having him dip his testicles into cold water and vinegar. [laughing]

NK: Or you could just wait for it to stop. [laughing]

JF: I wouldn't recommend trying it at home.

NK: The other, again, treatment -- I'm using that word loosely -- about balancing the humors, I mean, it sounds so painful and excessive. It sounds like it's doing a lot more harm than good.

JF: Well, indeed. And I suppose the popular, you know, medieval medicine has a bad reputation, let's put it that way. It conjures up images of people blighted by ignorance and disease, suffering these terribly painful, often ineffective and counterproductive treatments. And what I hope, though, people will see when they come to visit the exhibition, are medieval people writing, thinking, learning, trying to understand disease and its causes, and attempting to treat a bewildering array of illnesses and ailments. The exhibition challenges some of our preconceptions and our ideas about medieval medicine, as well as encouraging us to reflect on our preoccupations and ideas that we carry about the bodies that we both inhabit and imagine.

NK: Were you tempted to give any of these treatments a try? You know, just for the sake of your research?

JF: [both chuckle] No, I have to say no. The difficulty is that the plants that are described, you know, it's not always straightforward in identifying what medieval readers meant. In some cases, the meaning of words in Latin can be ambiguous. So, one of the remedies that we've translated for the exhibition, it refers to a radish. Well, that could be both the root of the thing, of the plant that it had just described, or it could mean specifically a radish. So, it's sometimes uncertain what particular combination of ingredients medieval writers and readers were intended to use. And those plants may have changed. And, well, it's a bit beyond the scope of the library. There may well be researchers who are interested in experimenting and recreating.

NK: That's a really diplomatic way to say I'm not, I'm a sane person. [both laugh] Thank you, James. I appreciate your time.

JF: Thanks very much for interviewing me.

CH: James Freeman is the medieval manuscripts specialist at Cambridge University Library, and the curator of the new Curious Cures exhibition. We reached him in Cambridge.

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Test Stir Stick

CH: It's more than just another bar accessory. The University of British Columbia is testing a stir stick that can detect if a drink has been drugged. The team of researchers felt other methods of drug detection were outdated, and they wanted to try something more discreet. So they created a product they call Spikeless. Anti-violence activist and advisor Sasha Santos says Spikeless is a step in the right direction when it comes to preventing drugging.

SOUNDCLIP

SASHA SANTOS: You know, prevalence numbers are so interesting and also misleading. Because one of the things we know about, like, all forms of violence and harm that people experience is that the rates of reporting are way, way, lower than the rates at which people are experiencing it. So, while those four and 10 per cent numbers are daunting, my experience in the sector suggests to me that those numbers are probably lower than the rates of drink spiking that are actually occurring.

GLORIA MACARENKO: I see. And, Sasha, how have you been able to help scientists who are developing this Spikeless stir stick?

SS: Working with the, uh, the scientists on this project has been phenomenal because they've come up with such an ingenious engineering solution to such, like, a terrible, preventable social problem. So, that's really inspiring. But honestly, what interested me in the project is that, not just its potential for preventing drink spiking, but the approach that they're wanting to take with Spikeless. And so right now, everything that's out there is a product that is sold to an individual that we would use to go test our drinks. And so, it is the same old sort of putting the burden of safety on the people who are targeted by violence. And we know that that's not actually effective, right? We know that people experience violence on the basis of vulnerability. And so, you know, if we try and make individuals less vulnerable, but we're not targeting the actual perpetration rate, the actual, like, rate at which these problems are happening, then we're not moving the needle at all, right? Then we're just displacing violence from, like, one person to the next. So any mechanism that protects one drink, um, like, frankly, displaces drink spiking potentially into someone else's drink. And so, what's amazing about Spikeless is it would be like the seatbelt for drink spiking. So, the vision is that every drink that comes off the bar has a Spikeless in it. Every table has a box of Spikeless in it. There's maybe a box on the wall when you come out of the washroom, so that at every moment you're returning to your drink, it's totally normal, totally universal, totally ubiquitous, affordable to just be giving it a stir and always knowing you're safe to sip.

CH: That was anti-violence activist Sasha Santos, talking to Gloria Macarenko, host of On The Coast.

[banjo]

Part 3: SK Adoption Report, Gaia Telescope

Retiring Neurologist

CH: The doctor shortage in Canada makes things extremely difficult for patients. According to the Canadian Medical Association, an estimated 6.5 million Canadians don't have a family doctor or nurse practitioner they see regularly -- and it's a problem with no clear solution. The shortage also makes things difficult for doctors. Dr. Russell Mosewich is a neurologist in Kamloops who's hesitating to hang up his lab coat. Dr. Mosewich treats people with acute cases of Parkinson's Disease, epilepsy, and other muscle disorders. More than 1,000 people are waiting to see him. He talked to the CBC about why he's having a hard time stepping away.

SOUNDCLIP

RUSSELL MOSEWICH: There's just an overwhelming list, and it's kind of hard to step away now because if I did, the hospital EMG lab wouldn't have a neurologist. And then, that lab really wouldn't continue to be able to be accredited.

SHELLEY JOYCE: Um, so your wait list is this long because why?

RM: Mostly because there were a number of people who either retired or decided to leave at Royal Inland Hospital. So, you know, four years ago, they had four different specialists working at the hospital doing these tests. And I actually was doing them separately in my own office, thinking I was semi-retired. So, I didn't really work at the hospital. I hadn't been doing call. But two of the doctors retired, and two moved to other communities. I don't want that lab to die. And so, I'll be seeing all my patients at the hospital by September and closing my office.

SJ: So, what happens, what happens to new patients? Like, do you, can you still accept them, or, or what are they told?

RM: So right now, because the wait for, for just routine EMT testing is that long -- and I'm the only one who can provide that service -- I don't accept referrals for routine cases. So, patients will need to go elsewhere. Currently, I'm seeing patients about eight months after they were referred, but we're predicting that's going to get to 10 months, maybe almost, almost a year wait, just for that simple test. But I am seeing patients who have more urgent conditions. So, conditions that might be ALS or serious muscle diseases. And there are some conditions that people end up in hospital with something called Guillain-Barré syndrome, which is an inflammation of your nerves. So, I'm seeing all the acute serious cases, but I'm not able to accommodate the other referrals. If I did, by now, if I hadn't done that, my waiting list would probably be 1,400.

SJ: Oh my goodness. I can imagine this must be sort of a moral dilemma for you, very stressful, you want to retire. It must be extremely stressful for patients as well when they are feeling, you know, panicky about a condition, and they're not able to be treated for it or seen for it.

RM: it's extremely stressful for patients who have fears that they might have ALS or some serious condition and they're waiting. And, of course, there's no way for me to know if that person on that wait list does have something serious. If the referring doctor says that it, that, you know, gives me enough information that it sounds like it might be ALS, we will see that person. But if somebody was just referred for weakness and it wasn't really well described, that person could be having a serious condition and waiting for that long. Yeah, so that's stressful. I think it's way more stressful for the patients than it is for me. I think it's way more stressful for the referring doctors. But for me, this is what I do.

CH: That was Dr. Russell Mosewich, talking to Shelly Joyce on Daybreak Kamloops this morning.

[chillhop house tour music]

SK Adoption Report

Guest: Leah Kim Brighton

CH: It was a dark chapter in South Korean history, and one that's long been shrouded in secrecy. Now, the country is finally acknowledging what happened. This week, South Korea's Truth and Reconciliation Commission released the findings of its investigation into foreign adoptions. The commission found that adoption agencies had committed widespread malpractice -- including falsifying documents to make it look like babies were orphans when they weren't. Hundreds of people have asked the commission to review their cases. So far, 56 of them are confirmed to have suffered human rights abuses. Leah Kim Brighton was raised in Canada after being adopted from South Korea. She's the founder of the organization Asian Adoptees of Canada. We reached her in Toronto.

NK: Leah, to learn of this admission from South Korea after all of these years, what did that mean to you?

LEAH KIM BRIGHTON: For myself -- and really what I have heard across the community -- is that it's really affirming. These are things that we have, you know, heard anecdotally. Certainly, with, you know, peers in our community. But to have it actually recognized by the government formally, yeah, it just really is affirming.

NK: The report says children were sent away, quote, like luggage, unquote. That's hard to read as someone who is not involved in the way you are. And, you know, they were sent away like that, the report says, so agencies could make money. How did that language sit with you when you read it?

LKB: Yeah, it's, you know, it's really hard to read that and to hear that. You know, certainly for my own personal story, but also for, you know, the 200,000-plus of all of us, who I think of us as like seeds scattered in the wind, you know, wherever we might have landed. You know, the whole idea of adoption is that it's for the best interest of the child. That's the entire premise that adoption is formed on. And what this report really shows, and puts into really important question is if that principle was actually applied?

NK: You were adopted by Canadian parents in the late '80s. You were listed on paper as an orphan, and your birth parents were deemed to be, quote, unknown. How long did it take you to find out that that was not true? That was not the case at all?

LKB: It took a long time. We had inquired when I was, you know, when I was younger, when I was in high school even, and they had consistently said, we had actually gone to Korea, to my agency, and they said that I was still an orphan, and they had no records or information about my birth parents. And later in my 20s, that's when I reached out again to post-adoption services, and it was a long back-and-forth. It was like many months that I finally found out that not only was I not an orphan, but both my birth parents were alive, and together, and well. And it was shocking. You know, I also found out that I had missed out on having siblings. I mean, like six sisters, so.

NK: Six sisters! And what did, what did your birth parents think had happened to you?

LKB: Yeah, they had no idea. They, they were told a story that I was supposedly adopted domestically in Korea. And that was, you know, the story and the belief that they had that maybe I was somewhere in Korea. The unearthing for them and unveiling that I wasn't in Korea, that I do not speak Korean, and instead that I'm placed halfway around the world in Canada was shocking.

NK: What was that reunion like, and the years since?

LKB: It was, it was amazing. Meeting my, I think, my birth mom and my whole birth family was, you know, one of the biggest defining moments of my life. And I think for, for a lot of us as orphans -- or designated as orphans anyways, as adoptees -- we never really know, you know, what the truth of our story is. And what the TRC, this whole unfolding recently has really shown us is that the things that we had assumed to be true all of our lives, you know, that had been approved by all these paperworks, by governments, by social work, you know, by all of these people, people we'll never meet. And people that we have trusted to tell us the truth about our origins, they're not. You know, some of my peers have found out that they're older. You know, they're actually, their birthday isn't even their actual, or even their birth year.

NK: you were able to have that meeting to reunite with your birth parents, I think, about 20 years ago. Your birth mother, as I understand it, has died since then. Do you feel like you were able to connect with her enough in the time that you had? That's a difficult question to ask.

LKB: You know, I am so incredibly thankful that I was even able to meet my birth mother. Like, that is just, I mean, whatever you believe, it is just such an incredible gift. And I don't take that lightly. And I mean I have a photo of us, you know, on my desk. But I also feel like in many ways, it was cut short. Like, she, you know, very sadly passed away within a few years of us reuniting. Um, and I think about, had my agency just been forthcoming about her whereabouts, we could have had way longer. You know, more than twice the amount of time before she passed away. And it's, I think for anybody who might be listening, like, if you think about all of the times that you have spent with your parents, with your family, and if rather than that, you can boil it down to weeks for your entire life, and in some ways feeling like you're robbed those opportunities.

NK: There were, there are those who are critical of this report, as you likely know. They feel that it was too cautious. That limitations prevented the commission from, you know, going deeper into investigating the government's alleged involvement. What are you hearing about others who are in the same situation as you -- other adoptees -- about how they feel about where this has landed?

LKB: Yeah. I mean, I definitely am very aware of there's a huge range of opinions within the community. And personally, I don't diminish any other adoptees', you know, sentiments. We all have such different stories and perspectives. But yes, I have heard that there are certainly some adoptees who feel quite strongly that there could have been more, more done, more questions, et cetera, raised. And it's for, I ask for myself, you know, in how I simply appreciate the fact that we have, we have been seen in this light, in any regard, within Korea's long history.

NK: Leah, I really appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

LKB: Truly a pleasure.

CH: Leah Kim Brighton is the founder of the organization Asian Adoptees of Canada. We reached her in Toronto.

[folk]

Bad Girls Only

CH: Just five per cent of the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts collection is on display at any given time. Which means vast troves of art and artifacts are buried in its basements. And now, thanks to the efforts of the museum's curator of European Art before the 1800s, one of those troves has just been unearthed -- and become part of a new exhibition, entitled Bad Girls Only. The show features prints and drawings that date as far back as the 15th century, all of which depict the seven deadly sins in the form of female subjects. Here's curator Chloé Pelletier.

SOUNDCLIP

CHLOÉ PELLETIER: I spend a lot of time in storage. Most of our holdings are in storage, so it's important to spend a lots of time going through boxes, looking at their acts. And one day, I was going through these boxes and came upon these beautiful, beautiful drawings from the late 16th century by a Dutch artist named Hendrik Goltjes. And they depicted these beautiful female figures, all personifying the seven deadly sins. What was really exciting about that was that we also had in another box, the engravings that were made based on those drawings. So, those drawings were actually made in preparation for engraving to be made by the artist's stepson and student, Yakov Matham. And so, it felt really exciting to be able to put the drawings side-by-side with the engravings that they inspired for the first time since 1980. So, that's really the core of the exhibition. And then, I kept digging around and actually found two more series of the seven deadly sins from the same period and the same place.

SABRINA MARANDOLA: So, what did you think as you were coming across these, and thought, okay, I see a thread here. [CP chuckles] Maybe there's some kind of theme happening?

CP: Absolutely. I mean, the association of women and sin, so the idea that women are kind of inherently inclined towards sin comes from the Bible, it comes from The Book of Genesis, back to the story of Eve in the Garden of Eden, when she dares to take the fruit of knowledge and gives it to her husband, therefore causing the kind of fall of mankind. So, the idea that women are not only physically inferior, but also morally inferior really comes from this moment. And then, over time as, you know, the church kind of concretizes different regulations and rules around women's behaviour and people's behaviour in general, we start to see more specific associations of women with sins of things like pride, you know, vanity, lust. And I think it's a question that we see in popular culture still today. I mean, the idea of the kind of bad girl is very much part of our contemporary culture, and I think that was just as much the case 500 years ago.

SM: Chloé, I'm just wondering here, because all of these appear to be men's depictions of women committing sin. And I'm wondering, you know, back in the day, a lot of female artists, they would sign with the man's name. Were these all done by men, we know for sure?

CP: Hmm, it's interesting. These were all done men, I think we can say with certainty because they are actually signed. But it is a good point to bring up that there were women working at the same time. Actually, many women artists, including women printmakers. We don't have any prints of sinful women by women artists that I know of.

SM: Yeah, I wonder if the perspective would shift a little bit?

CP: I wonder that, too. You know, when we think about women artists from this period, some of the kind of iconic works that come to mind are images of heroic women like Judith slaying Holofernes in the Bible, women of virtue. So, you know, it'd be interesting to even think about the possibility of a woman artist taking on such kind of risque material of, of working on the idea of sinful women as a woman herself.

CH: Chloé Pelletier is a curator at the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts. She was talking with CBC Montreal's Sabrina Marandola.

[indie rock]

Gaia Telescope

Guest: Anthony Brown

CH: Long before the James Webb Telescope that's all the rage with the kids these days, there was Gaia. For more than a decade, the Gaia space telescope was our cosmic cartographer -- mapping nearly two billion stars, tracking distant galaxies, helping scientists uncover hidden black holes. But now, its mission is over. Yesterday, Gaia rode off into the sunset -- or, more literally, it was sent into orbit around the Sun. So, Gaia won't be sending any more data. But the discoveries it contributed to will keep astronomers busy for years to come. And one of those astronomers is Anthony Brown, who’s been working on Gaia since 1997. We reached him in Leiden, the Netherlands.

NK: Anthony, was it hard to say goodbye?

ANTHONY BROWN: Yeah. Because it's been working with the spacecraft, sending data back for the past 11 years or so. So, it's quite a change. On the other hand, it's also nice to know that something is closed off. And there's still plenty of work to look forward to in terms of processing all the data that is still freshly coming.

NK: Do you feel ultimately that Gaia lived up to its promise over those years?

AB: Yes. In fact, I think it exceeded most people's expectations. It has performed -- at least for the coming release -- we will reach the performance that we always had hoped we would. But in the past years or so, with all the many thousands of publications and various scientific discoveries that have been done, I think it already outperformed what we had expected, yeah.

NK: And you did get a chance to say goodbye, in a way, you and your colleagues were able to write some messages for Gaia before Gaia was, you know, shut down and cut loose, if I can put it that way. What did you write?

AB: [chuckle] I wrote, farewell to an amazing spacecraft that revolutionized 21st century astronomy.

NK: When you became involved in this project, in this mission, what was, I mean, you know, there's pride and a bit of, it's bittersweet, it sounds like, for you and your colleagues. But when you first began, it was a very different kind of energy and expectation. What was that moment like?

AB: I began actually before the mission was even accepted in the ESA program, so we were still studying the initial designs and also working on the science motivation for the mission. So, at that point, it all seemed rather far away. This was in 1997, and the launch was at that time planned for around 2010. So, that seemed far away, but then the mission were accepted in 2000 into the ESA program as something that was going to happen. And from then on, of course, it was a long period of preparation and optimizing the spacecraft design, but also starting to work on the data processing. And then, the launch happened in 2013. And now, we have said goodbye to the spacecraft. So yeah, having gone through all of that is amazing. And the energy was always there. I mean, first you have the anticipation of the mission coming up, doing the designs, the optimizations. Then, you have the actual launch, working with the real data as it comes in, dealing with all the challenges. And that continues today. So, it's always, people often ask me, how can you work on a project for so long? But it's interesting, it's always changing.

NK: We were always learning new things that Gaia was able to help you find out about. What would you say, you know, are some of the key things that brought the field to the place that it is? And you've said that astronomers couldn't imagine doing their work now without the work Gaia has done.

AB: What Gaia provides is really very fundamental data about stars in the Milky Way. So, sort of the primary thing that we do is measure distances to stars and also measure how they move through space. And we also provide their astrophysical properties, from which you can learn things about what are the ages of the stars, what are their chemical compositions, etc. And it's a very large catalog of about two billion stars. And it's very easily available. And you can basically nowadays, if you want to know something about a star in the sky, just look it up in the Gaia catalog. And that really changes astronomy enormously, besides the fact that it's also very accurate and precise. But it's just the easy availability of this fundamental data, which is useful in almost any area of astronomy that you can think of.

NK: You've also said that what Gaia has revealed might explain why the Milky Way appears warped when it's viewed from the side. That's a quote you gave to the New York Times. How did it do that? What does it tell us on that front?

AB: What we can do with Gaia is actually reconstruct the formation history of the Milky Way. And so, we have a fairly broad picture now of how that happened. So we can -- with Gaia data -- already trace the very first fragments of the Milky Way that formed not too long after the Big Bang. And we know that after that phase, there was a phase of the first parts of the Milky Way disk forming. And then, there was fairly sizable galaxy that crashed into the Milky Way, about 10 billion years ago, and this was followed by the rest of the formation of the Milky Way disk. But in the course of building up the disk, depending on how the fresh material that fell into the Milky Way and formed new stars, depending on where that exactly came from, that could be one reason why the disk is warped, why it's not completely flat. And the other idea might be that it's because of the interaction with a recently acquired a small galaxy that is orbiting around the Milky Way, and every now and then, passes through our disk. So, I think it's not entirely clear yet, but yeah.

NK: Do you think that Gaia gets the credit you believe it deserves, you know, when you compare it to the James Webb Telescope, for example, and how many people are aware of it today, and what it does?

AB: I would say among my astronomy colleagues, it definitely gets the credit it deserves. I mean, I hear this constantly from people who are outside the Gaia project but work with the data, how happy they are with it. But yeah, in the terms of the general public, obviously, missions that produce images like the James Webb Space Telescope or nowadays Euclid from the European Space Agency, they speak much more directly to people's imaginations. So yeah, there's a good chance that they will have heard of those missions and maybe not of Gaia.

NK: But maybe conversations like this one, and what you're sharing with people might help change that?

AB: Yes, yes, for sure.

NK: Anthony, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

AB: Thanks. It was my pleasure.

CH: Anthony Brown is an astronomer working at the University of Leiden. He's was the head of the Gaia project's data processing and analysis group. We reached him in Leiden, the Netherlands.

[folk]

Sarah Harmer

CH: A week ago Monday, the great singer-songwriter Sarah Harmer was a guest on this show, at which point she waxed eloquent about...salamanders. Adorable endangered salamanders that are near and dear to her. And are just one of the many environmental causes that have inspired Ms. Harmer to take action over the past 25 years. Now, her activism has earned her the 2025 Junos Humanitarian Award -- which she'll be given in Vancouver on Sunday. While she’s in vancouver, Sarah Harmer sat down with the CBC's Stephen Quinn. He asked her how she's feeling about the new focus on Canadian self-reliance -- and whether she was concerned it would lead to more pipelines, more development, and less concern for the natural world.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH HARMER: I guess that is, definitely could be a concern. I have also seen proposals for east-to-west hydro grid. You know, there's other more renewable projects that can create jobs, bring people together. I'm learning about that. And so, I'm not an expert on any of that. But I do think that crisis is opportunity. And so long as we don't fall back on the playbook of neoliberal corporate overseeing of all of our commons, you know, I think it's really good that Canadians are feeling more, looking at each other more, and understanding how do we need to be sustainable as a country? And understanding our reliance on the living world. It's not just about pulling out and making money from, it's about leaning on each other, figuring out how to do things sustainably. I think that's where the long-term future jobs are.

STEPHEN QUINN: How do you stay optimistic when you're doing all of this?

SH: I mean I get to meet people all the time, and people make me optimistic. I was on the train coming over, and there were a number of Americans on the train, and there was a couple who were both wearing pins that said, we are so very sorry. [both laugh] I mean, I think that the people understand it's easy to feel isolated in this, in this, you know, in the society as it has developed in a neoliberal kind of capitalist way in the last number of decades. But when we come together, and when we meet each other, that keeps me optimistic, is just to understand the commonality and the goodwill.

CH: Singer, songwriter, environmental advocate, and this year's Junos Humanitarian Award winner, Sarah Harmer, talking to Stephen Quinn, host of The Early Edition in Vancouver.

The AIH Transcript For March 30, 2025

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