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The AIH transcript for May 1, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Mark her words. A lawyer for a wrongfully deported Maryland man says she can't categorically deny Donald Trump's claims about Kilmar Abrego Garcia's supposed gang tattoos -- because she hasn't been permitted any access to her client.

CH: Fuel for thought. Former Conservative Party leader Erin O'Toole says that when the Prime Minister visits Washington, his priorities should be projecting national unity -- and putting energy at the centre of negotiations.

NK: Beyond her years. Sophia Mathur has been fighting the Ontario government in court over its climate policies since she was 12. And today, the now-18 year old's case took a major step forward.

CH: Inside scoops. We hear from an Iowa museum owner whose collection of nearly 40,00 spoons is likely record-breaking -- and whose efforts to catalogue it have caused quite a stir.

NK: First hand knowledge. To prevent a vulture chick from imprinting on a human caregiver, the Bronx Zoo turns to an age-old feeding technique: puppetry.

CH: And...a dog-meet-dog world. In a groundbreaking summit meeting, the biggest dog on Earth met the tiniest dog on Earth -- although neither seemed clear on what the other creature is, exactly.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that loves a good under-dog story.

[theme]

Part 1: Abrego Garcia Lawyer, Youth Climate Case, Spoon Collector

Abrego Garcia Lawyer

Guest: Rina Gandhi

CH: It was billed as an interview to mark the U.S. president's 100th day in office. But on Tuesday, when Mr. Trump sat down with Terry Moran of ABC News, the focus quickly turned to the Maryland man mistakenly deported to El Salvador -- and the president's insistence that Kilmar Abrego Garcia is a member of the criminal gang known as MS-13.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: He said he wasn't a member of a gang, and then they looked, and on his knuckles he had MS-13.

TERRY MORAN: There's a dispute over that.

DT: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute! He had MS-13 on his knuckles tattooed!

TM: Oh, he had some tattoos that are interpreted that way, but let's move on.

DT: Wait a minute. Hey, Terry, Terry,.

TM: He did not have the letter M-S-1-3.

DT: It says M-S-1-3.

TM: That was photoshopped.

DT: That was photoshopped? Terry, you can't do that.

CH: That exchange continued for some time -- as the reporter pressed the U.S. president on rulings from a federal judge, an appeals court, and the Supreme Court of the United States to "facilitate" Mr. Garcia's return. Rina Gandhi is an attorney for Mr. Garcia. We reached her in Fairfax, Virginia.

NK: Rina, you've heard the president's comments. There are recent photos, they were posted on social media by El Salvador's president, President Bukele, that seemed to show that there are no MS-13 tattoos on Mr. Garcia's knuckles. What is the truth here?

RINA GANDHI: The truth is we can't confirm or deny. I think we can assume looking at the poor Photoshop job, but we can confirm or deny because we haven't been able to see or speak to our client. So, I cannot definitively tell you one way or the other until we can do that.

NK: What does it say to you that the president insists that it is there, that he does have this tattoo?

RG: Well, I think it shows sort of the state of our nation's maybe gullibility or inability to see, you know, what is, excuse my quote here, but fake news and what is real. It's also concerning because it, to an average person, looks so obvious. So, is it with bad intentions? I don't know

NK: Whether that tattoo is there or not, does it matter for your case?

RG: Absolutely not. His character, whether he is deserving, which is what the administration is attempting to push forward as the narrative that we should care about is not relevant. The fact is he was improperly, incorrectly removed against a court order from 2019, preventing his removal to that very country he was removed to. And if the government will not make good faith efforts to bring him back in accordance with the Supreme Court order, with the district court order, then I think we should all be concerned and wondering, you know, who's next?

NK: In that same interview, another aspect of that conversation that made headlines is that the U.S. President said he could bring Abrego Garcia back to the United States with just one phone call, but that he's not willing to do that. But just that he could make that call and not be willing to do that contradicts earlier statements from the administration, where they claimed it was impossible on the face of it. Those shifting claims, how do you explain that, but also try to respond to them?

RG: I really am at a loss for words of how to explain it. They're talking out of both sides of their mouth. How on one hand can you have high-level government officials saying it's El Salvador's problem, they won't let him go? And on the other hand, have the president of the United States saying, which quite frankly I believe, a phone call would bring him back. It's frustrating, and I don't have a good answer of how we make sense of these conflicting statements.

NK: The New York Times reported yesterday that the Trump administration sent a diplomatic note to El Salvador about releasing Abrego Garcia, but that the government there claimed he should stay in El Salvador. First of all, do you believe that there is a real and genuine effort going on?

RG: To be very honest, I can't answer that question. But I do think it's interesting that from our administration and from the Salvadoran administration, we're hearing two different conflicting things. Because there's another report or rumor, I should say, from a high-level official in El Salvador stating that no one has requested his return, and that he has not been indicated to be a gang member and is in a different jail or location for that very reason. So, it's just hard to understand exactly what's going on when we're getting this kind of different information and we haven't finished discovery

NK: the care with which you are speaking, the caution with which you are talking as a lawyer, waiting to find out, and what we're hearing from officials and even the U.S. president. Is it difficult for you and your team as you try to bring this man home to do that?

RG: Extremely. At the end of the day, we're immigration lawyers. We're not big-time lawyers who spend their waking hours, you know, working on big Supreme Court cases. We work with the families, we work with human beings, but also, you know, we have to be cautious and we have to believe in the rule of law. Otherwise, why are we lawyers? Why are we doing this? And so, despite, you know, the administration's take on this case, which is to try to slander this man's name and put everything out in the media, but you know not put anything in a real court. That's not the approach that I believe in, and that's not the system I believe in.

NK: Do you believe that the rule of law will prevail in the end?

RG: I have to. I have to. And I think we all should believe in that because that's what our society is built on. We give up on that and we don't keep pushing for that, what are we left with?

NK: The federal judge in Maryland who ordered the Trump administration to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return about a month ago spoke again. She ordered the administration, once again, to provide information on what efforts they are making to comply with that order. This is certainly not the first time she's asked. What evidence would you like to see at this stage as discovery continues?

RG: Well, we've requested a number of things. We've requested to see the agreement. It's been reported that there is an agreement that includes the return of folks. The larger, big picture idea that this administration has is that we could use jails in other countries to hold people while they're waiting for their adjudication in the United States. So, the assumption is that there must be some agreed upon mechanism to return folks.

NK: What's the latest update you have on your client? Where is he? How is he doing?

RG: I would love to tell you. The true answer is: I don't know. We hear reports and rumors, but we have been denied any access to him.

NK: Rina, I appreciate this. Thank you for your time.

RG: Absolutely. It was lovely to speak with you today. Thank you.

CH: Rina Gandhi is an attorney for Kilmar Abrego Garcia. We reached her in Fairfax, Virginia.

[chillhop house tour music]

Youth Climate Case

Guest: Sophia Mathur

CH: Sophia Mathur was seven when she first got involved in climate action. She was 12 when she first took her provincial government to court. Now, she's 18. And today, there was a major development in that case. This morning, the Supreme Court of Canada dismissed Ontario's request to hear its appeal in the youth-led climate case, meaning it will now head back to a lower court for a new hearing. In 2019, Sophia, and six other young people, joined a challenge led by the Canadian environmental law charity Ecojustice, which said the provincial government's weakened emissions targets violated their rights under the Charter. We reached Sophia Mathur in Sudbury, Ontario.

NK: Sophia, you're, of course, juggling classes. You know, you're in school today. We were certainly, you know, trying to connect to set up this interview. At what point in your school day today did you hear the news from the Supreme Court of Canada?

SOPHIA MATHUR: As soon as I got out of calculus class was when I heard it, going into lunch. I was going to meet all my friends and I got the message. And it was very exciting. I at least was able to talk to people and I wasn't stuck in class.

NK: And the six others who are part of this, also young people, do you all have a group chat? Are you messaging each other?

SM: Yes, we're all pretty close, and we're all really excited. I mean, we've had multiple meetings learning about the different results of this. And this was definitely best-case scenario.

NK: A member of your legal team at Ecojustice, who's also a part of this challenge, told us he is certainly celebrating this win as well. And he said it confirms the lower court ruling that the government's climate targets must comply with the charter. Ultimately, what is your reaction to this decision?

SM: I think I'm really happy and I'm really optimistic. I always try to have a good outlook when it comes to making an impact in regards to climate change and protecting our future. But I've definitely, you know, in the past seen kind of maybe politicians making promises or just acknowledging climate change and doing nothing. So, finally seeing kind of more of a process and acknowledgement from a court is just a great thing to see. And it really gives me hope in the future of climate action, and the future for all youth in Ontario and all youth around the world.

NK: Ministry of the Attorney General in Ontario, we reached out and they sent us a statement today in response saying, quote, to be clear, no decision has been made regarding the constitutionality of Ontario's climate change plan or target. As this matter remains before the court, it would be inappropriate to comment further, unquote. A spokesperson for the ministry after the earlier court ruling told CBC News last year that the province is leading Canada's response to the climate crisis and is on track to meet its emissions reduction targets. What do those comments mean to you or say to you?

SM: I think it's really upsetting to hear things like that when many scientists and people are saying that what they're doing is not sufficient enough and does not align with the evidence that climate scientists have told us on how we need to act. I think that there's a lack of accountability from those governments, especially, and I mean, obviously, they have to make statements like that. But it's upsetting how they will prioritize kind of protecting the economy or protecting their money over people's lives and then lie to citizens and say that they are doing enough when clearly evidence says otherwise and clearly this case wouldn't exist if that was true.

NK: You turned 18 recently, just a couple of weeks before the federal election. You've been trying to get adults to listen to you, certainly, and taking them to court to do it, but to be able to make a statement, have your voice heard in that way at the ballot box, what was that like for you?

SM: Yeah, well a lot of my career as a youth activist was kind of saying that I don't have the chance to vote, so protesting and doing things like this is kind of my last resort to be able to engage with democracy and make a difference. But finally being able to go to the poll and engage with the democracy and have a say with who becomes our leader and who represents my region is a big deal. And I think a lot people that maybe have voted a lot times in the past or have had the chance in the past, but haven't, don't realize the sort of privilege we have to be able to make that decision and to be able to have a say. And I think that I'm really hoping that my generation of youth really does take that opportunity and really does acknowledge the fact that voting is really important. And what governments do and what they say can really have a major impact on every aspect of our life.

NK: At the same time, in this election campaign, in this past election campaign, climate change was not at the forefront in the way that many people were hoping it was. There were other issues, you know, cost of living, but also, of course, the threats from the United States being at the very top of the list. So, what was it like for you to watch that part of the campaign?

SM: Yes, I can very much understand and empathize with why those concerns are at the forefront right now. I do think they are really important and it is important that those discussions are happening. But it is upsetting that climate change, as these issues continue, is pushed to the back and it feels like even solutions for climate change have become so partisan and politicized that it's hard to even have a cooperative conversation about them and in terms of debates with these politicians. But what a lot of people aren't acknowledging and what a lotta politicians aren't acknowledging is that climate change affects all aspects of what they're talking about. Climate change will affect the economy, it will affect education, it will affect healthcare. It affects everything. And in 10 years time, like, our relationships with the U.S., however that will be, what will climate change be like in the U.S.? And what sort of pressure will that have on our trading system? So, I do believe that those issues are very important, but we cannot push the underlying issue of climate change to the side, especially now that we have a new government. I really hope that they do prioritize climate change and really do acknowledge it in a non-partisan way.

NK: You've talked about where you live, and specifically the forest behind your house in Sudbury. What do you see when you look at that forest now?

SM: I've grown up around this forest. And hearing all the evidence saying that fires will increase and kind of the impacts that climate change will have on this, I realize that not many youth in the future, if we don't solve climate change, will be able to have that same childhood that I had being able to grow up and explore the woods, play games with my friends, and go for walks. And that really upsets me. And as well as the horrible effects that climate can have on housing and all these issues. There is kind of that sad feeling of nostalgia that we're going to be losing the species and the amazing things that I was able to grow up with.

NK: It's interesting, though, to hear you talk about those serious realities and concerns, but I still hear positivity and promise in your voice. How have you managed to keep that?

SM: I think I've really managed to balance it. I have worked with people that hold events with people that have a lot of climate anxiety and that are really nervous about it. But kind of when you go to these events and you talk to people within the sphere of the environmental movement, you realize that there's a lot more things happening. There's a lotta people doing things that we don't hear about all the time. We do have ways to go, and it is upsetting to see the effects of climate change still harm people and it be ignored. But I also see change happening at the same time, so kind of balancing the concern for climate change but also hope for a better future.

NK: Sophia, I'm really glad we could speak. Thank you for this.

SM: Thank you so much for having me!

CH: Sophia Mathur is a climate activist who has been a leader in the Fridays for Future movement in Canada. She's also one of the applicants in a climate lawsuit against the Ontario government. We reached her in Sudbury, Ontario.

[percussive]

Spoon Collector

Guest: Cammie Pohl

CH: Around the As It Happens office, cutlery is a coveted commodity. People will hoard, barter, even steal silverware like it's made out of actual gold -- which, as a host, mine is. And it's all because they just want to be able eat their lunch with utensils rather than just [scoffs] shoveling it in with their hands. And the most versatile and valuable type of cutlery around here -- the spoons -- often go missing. You often see people weeping as they try to eat their soup with a fork. Maybe you can't relate. Maybe you haven't learned the value of a good spoon. But Cammie Pohl has. She's the owner of the Mississippi Spoon Gallery. And, she thinks she has broken a Guinness World Record with her spoon collection. We reached Ms. Pohl in Davenport, Iowa.

NK: Cammie, how many spoons does it take to set a world record?

CAMMIE POHL: Well, it definitely will take over $30,000 because that's what the current Guinness World Record holder has in Australia.

NK: Des Warren -- Mayfield, Australia -- set that record in 1990. How many spoons do you have?

CP: Well, this last Saturday, my volunteers helped me count 38,162 spoons. We do have the only spoon museum in the world, yikes!

NK: [chuckling] One more thing to be proud of for you, I know. You've talked about the previous record and record holder. And, I mean, if there can be trash talk in the world of spoon collecting, you have some. You say your collection is superior in other ways, not just in size.

CP: True. True. My spoons, some of them are centuries old. And my spoons do not include just the tea spoons, that are quite lovely and the ceramic details on them, the Norwegian artist that had created. But not only that, I have queens from the Jubilee of Queen Victoria. Boy, we have plique du jour spoons. Most people don't even know what plique de jour spoons is.

NK: No!

CP: But plique de jour spoons, plique de jour in French means translucent through light. So, that means, basically, stained glassing on a miniature level on a spoon.

NK: So, this collection really tells a story for you, it sounds like -- many stories throughout the ages.

CP: Many stories. So, I had actually gotten my spoons as a gift from my great-grandmother before I left for the military. And when I came back, sadly she passed away five months before I could open up those boxes. But when I opened up those boxes, I had so many more questions to ask her because she had spoons from the St. Louis World's Fair and spoons of silent movie actor spoons as well as Army Navy spoons. And chocolate testers spoons from the World Fair. And boy, let me tell you, just so many questions. But each spoon tells a story. And then, my husband and I treat it as a scavenger hunt for more spoons that tell these stories. And boy, I tell you, one spoon will just take you down a rabbit hole and it's amazing.

NK: There's one kind of spoon in particular I had never heard of 'till our producer mentioned it after speaking with you, an ear spoon?

CP: Yeah! [chuckle]

NK: I know maybe other people have heard of it. I had not.

CP: No. Most people, if you are from, I would say more in India and Nepalese area, they have a teeny, tiny ear spoon. And it's a really, really small, small bowl that you would actually use to scoop out wax out of a baby's ear, or possibly worse, a bug that may have, you know?

NK: So, instead of the Q-tips or swabs people are used to.

CP: Right.

NK: Better, probably.

CP: Yep, right. So many different spoons. And people think, when they think of a spoon museum, they just really don't think outside the box. They really need to think outside the box, so.

NK: What about the ones not in your museum, but in your drawers at home? I mean, are you as equally enamored of them?

CP: Well, honey, I have to tell you. [chuckling] Today, I spend most of my time at the museum, but the ones in my drawers are probably the cheapest ones there is. [NK chuckles] Because a sterling silver spoon or any type of silver plate would actually, your teeth would scrape it off, but silver is the best way to give medicine. I do have doctor's spoons that folded out back in the old days that would travel with the doctor and those are sterling silver. But no, my favorite ones that are in a set are my Gorum fish spoons. The handles are fish all the way down to the bowl of the spoon, so it's kind of cool.

NK: It does sound beautiful.

CP: But I don't eat with those. I should, but I don't. [both chuckle]

NK: They're too special for you. So, what is left now to get the confirmation and the designation that you have the largest spoon collection in the world?

CP: Well, we're having a hard time loading up the video, so I don't know if I need to pick a particular time, if they're having too much video loaded up at a certain time of the day. My other choice is by just downloading it onto a huge hard drive and sending them photos and the clickers and everything, right straight to them.

NK: But as far as you know, no one else has anything close to this that you've heard?

CP: No. No. I belong to two spoon clubs. Believe it or not, the first time I joined a spoon club, I left from Iowa to the Spoon Convention in Charleston, South Carolina. And I'm driving down there expecting little old ladies or ladies my age or younger, trading spoons. And when I got in there, and yes, this is what they called it, the spooning room, I opened up the door and I felt like I was just dumped into a snake's pit. There was more men collectors in there and they were very serious about their collections. Girl, I was, like, [NK chuckles] I was crying. My eyes were just like welling up. I'm like, I'm out of my league here. I'm from Iowa.

NK: Clearly not! You're leading them. Well, good luck with the efforts, Cammie. I'm glad we could speak.

CP: Yeah, no worries. And safe spooning wherever you go.

NK: [chuckling] Wise words, thank you.

CH: [NK chuckles] Safe spooning to us all! Cammie Pohl is the owner of Mississippi Spoon Gallery, where she houses her collection of 38,162 spoons. We reached her in Davenport, Iowa.

[pop]

Shortest And Tallest Dog Meet

[tense orchestral music]

CH: It was one of the most consequential summits of modern times. A meeting years in the making, unless it was just arranged a couple days beforehand. Anyway, it's not important. What's important is that two giants in their field -- one giant giant and one tiny giant -- came together against all odds, to find some common ground. Or at least to stand around in the same general area, only intermittently aware of each other. This was the meeting of Reginald and Pearl. The largest dog in the world...and the smallest dog in the world. [music fades] [NK chuckles] Pearl is a chihuahua from Florida, 9.14 centimetres tall. That's about 3.5 inches. Reggie is a Great Dane from Idaho, who's a full metre in height, or 3-feet-3-inches. And at the beginning of this month, the two finally met up in person. In dog person. Here is the historic moment they first set eyes on one another.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: Oh my goodness! [the rest isn't word]

WOMAN #2: That's Pearl.

WOMAN: She's so sweet!

WOMAN #2: Can you see, Pearl? That's Reggie! He's a big dog, right? But he wouldn't give you kisses!

CH: I shouldn't have said they set eyes on each other: little Pearl's bulging eyes darted everywhere but Reggie, [NK chuckles] occasionally seeming to point in two different directions. But Reggie was immediately fascinated. And as their summit meeting continued, the two dogs became dear friends and trusted allies. Or at least they seemed to notice each other occasionally --- and Reggie didn't step on, or eat, Pearl. Reggie's owner, Sam, summed up the summit.

SOUNDCLIP

[inspirational music]

SAM: I was surprised that Pearl wasn't more afraid of Reggie. Usually, when we meet other dogs, it's usually the other dog that's like, whoa, hold up, back up. But Pearl was so excited and she is very interested in him and he is kind of like, whoa, I have no idea what that is and I don't think I want them near me. [laughing].

CH: Truly, it was a meeting that will not soon be forgotten. Except by both dogs, who have already forgotten it. And have returned to a life without paparazzi, where they're not just part of some dog and pony...sized-dog show.

[heist music]

Part 2: Carney/Trump Meeting, Bronx Zoo Puppet Feeder

Carney/Trump Meeting

Guest: Erin O'Toole

CH: He may want to annex Canada -- but he's still had the courtesy to invite Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney for a visit. U.S. President Donald Trump says he spoke with the prime minister -- who he said "couldn't have been nicer" -- and expects him to visit the White House in coming days. The stakes are, of course, high. Canada is dealing with damaging tariffs, and President Trump's repeated threats of annexation. Tomorrow we'll get a sense of Mark Carney's approach to the talks when he holds his first news conference as prime minister. Erin O'Toole is the former leader of the Conservative Party. He's now a distinguished fellow at the Hudson Institute in Washington, specializing in international trade. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Erin O'Toole, in this initial face to face between Prime Minister Carney and President Trump, is it mostly about tone and recalibrating the relationship?

ERIN O'TOOLE: I think this serves as a perfect restart to discussions between Canada and the United States under President Trump. And Mr. Carney got a significant mandate from the Canadian people in an election all about the Canada-U.S. relationship. And I think there is a Team Canada approach, making sure that we talk about trade and security in a serious way. And so, I think it is reestablishing dialog, reestablishing trust. I agree with Prime Minister Carney that the relationship will take a long time to get back to what it was, but I think this could be the first step in that journey.

NK: Given that it is a first step, as you put it, what ultimately could or should Canadians expect to come out of that initial meeting? What is success, or what does success look like from where you sit?

EO: Well, I think first thing, we would like to see more respect for the relationship by President Trump. So, it really denigrates a historic relationship that is generational when claims about the 51st state and things like that are made. I think reestablishing a position of trust between two great democracies is the first step. I think the second, though, is we have to be a lot more self-reliant, a lot more dependable as an ally on defence spending, on Arctic issues in particular. We have to align on certain trade policies vis-a-vis China and the global rivalry between the United States or the Western world and China on critical minerals and a range of things. So, I think we can reach an agreement where Canadian partnership will be key to U.S. continental security and energy security in particular. I do think energy is the linchpin here, Nil. But respect first and then a dialog towards partnership second. And the prime minister has the country behind him. We want him to succeed. And I say this [chuckling] as a lifelong Conservative. We wanna see success because this relationship is so critical to Canada, but also to the United States.

NK: You mentioned energy being key. So, if that is the key card in Canada's hand, how do you think Prime Minister Carney should play that?

EO: It's long suggested, and we were talking about this as far back as the Harper government and the Obama administration, about a North American energy pact where we look at energy security as just as important as NORAD and defensive security. And it's not just oil and gas, although that's the first step and why Keystone and building that mutual respect and reliance is key. But so are critical minerals, so is uranium from Saskatchewan, so is a decarbonized electricity grid with hydro from Manitoba and Quebec and nuclear emission-free generation from Ontario. Energy is so critical to a successful economy that I think this is where partnership and the benefit of having Canada as an ally will convince President Trump that it's worth setting aside the little taunts and making a real deal. You want the art of the deal, let's lock in an energy pact and drop the tariffs in the process.

NK: Do you think that realistically we might see those tariffs actually dropped and soon?

EO: Well, you're seeing them pause, Nil. You're seeing reductions. I think the president is shrewd when it comes to how he started with this. I don't agree with any of it, but you'll notice he put energy at only a 10 per cent tariff. He knows that Canada's trade surplus with the United States is largely energy, which benefits their economy. If they're going to rebuild their shipbuilding industry, if they're gonna rearm their military, they need Canada. They need steel, they need resources, they need energy, they need aluminum. And so, I think Prime Minister Carney needs to be a lot more serious than the Trudeau government was on the U.S. Relationship. And he has the chance to reset the dialog, and I hope that happens.

NK: You've spoken about the importance of presenting a united front, you know, cross-Canada united front as these conversations begin, and then hopefully, continue and continue in a good direction. Alberta Premier Danielle Smith has been speaking about this just today, saying Mark Carney needs to reset the relationship with her province. And she said that before. And we know she's brought forward legislation that would make it easier to hold a referendum on separation, potentially. So, given all of that, It sounds like it's going to be challenging to present that united front.

EO: I don't think it will be. I do think Prime Minister Carney should travel west before going south. I think aligning with some of the premiers on understanding the importance of energy and how he'll fight for it. You know, I was pleasantly surprised when Mr. Carney sounded a lot like my old prime minister, Stephen Harper, when he called Canada an energy superpower. Well, let's work with the energy delivering regions of the country. And as I said, it's not just oil and gas. It's uranium. It's hydro. It's nuclear. But I think aligning to try and show a Team Canada, I know all of the premiers love this country. We have to come together at this critical time. And I think having had an election on it, and the fact that Mr. Carney has a mandate, as a member of the blue team, I respect his mandate and I want him to succeed. And I think all the premiers want him to succeed.

NK: Before we let you go, because you're a member of the blue team, and you were leader of the Conservatives, as we look at these election results, we know the Conservatives made gains in terms of support and seat count. But Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre, as you know, lost his own seat. So, do you believe he should stay on?

EO: I believe whenever a leader makes progress and grows, they should get a second kick at the can. Nil, I wish we could apply that retroactively. [chuckling] I would have loved a second kick at the can. I think Pierre made some strong growth, including in my province here in Ontario. He brought a lot of younger voters into our discussion, a lot of union members, something I started the outreach to as leader. So, I do think he deserves that chance. And I think the Conservative Party also has to learn the lessons. You know, how do we broaden the tent even more if we're gonna see a long two-party type race if the NDP is rebuilding? So, I think there's lessons to be learned. But I respect anyone that puts their foot in the ring -- the political ring. It's tough in this environment, and I do think he should get a second shot

NK: Erin O'Toole, I appreciate your time. Thanks for this.

EO: Thank you.

CH: Erin O'Toole is the former leader of the Conservative Party and a distinguished fellow at the Hudson Institute think tank. He was in Toronto.

[R&B]

Bronx Zoo Puppet Feeder

Guest: Chuck Cerbini

CH: When it comes to parenting, king vultures are honestly not the best. The species has a reputation for neglecting its chicks. But at the Bronx Zoo, one baby vulture is getting the royal treatment from something that looks very much like one of its biological parents, but has a human hand inside it. Zookeepers in the ornithology department are using an eerily realistic-looking vulture-faced hand puppet to feed the chick. They're doing that because they don't want to trigger what's known as imprinting -- the bird's tendency to bond with the first thing it sees. Which ideally, should not be a zookeeper in khakis. Chuck Cerbini is the curator of ornithology at the Bronx Zoo. And we reached him in New York City.

NK: Chuck, this hand puppet is quite something. It's, I think it looks pretty realistic. Can you describe what it looks like?

CHUCK CERBINI: Yes, the puppet is designed to look just like an adult king vulture head. And that was the idea behind all this. We're very fortunate here at the Bronx Zoo for many reasons, but one reason in particular is certainly the artists that are on staff that work here. And they create beautiful things that range from some of the natural murals that you see in different enclosures to something like this king vulture puppet head. So, this puppet, even to the exact dimensions, anatomically, it's pretty much exactly like a living king vulture head.

NK: That's remarkable. And I think a lot of people would not know that artists are on staff at a zoo. I mean, it's not something that they would think about. So, that in and of itself is really interesting to learn from you as we speak, Chuck. What is this hand puppet made of?

CC: Well, it's sculpted out of, basically, a general sculpting material that's easy to use and then it's hand-painted. So, the artist actually hand-painted it. If you look at adult king vultures, a bit uncharacteristically compared to other vulture species, they have a beautiful, bright, vivid array of colours on their head. And not only that, it's not just a puppet that looks like a king vulture head, it's functional, too. So, the beak can be operated, and it could open and close so it could hold little morsels of food and feed it directly to the chick just like a living parent would.

NK: What about the rest of you? [CC chuckles] Because even if the chick is focused on what's on your hand, you don't want them to be distracted by who you are, obviously. So, how do you deal with that?

CC: That's right. The chick started off in a brooder box, which was very important because these brooder boxes control the temperature and humidity of the environment that the chick is in. Now, when it's in a brooder box it's very easy to control the environment in terms of what the bird can see visually. However, the keepers do the feeding. They not only have the vulture puppet and their arm covered, they also have their faces and the rest of their bodies covered with sheets that just kind of block any human-like features that the vulture chick could see. So, there was actually a whole outfit that goes along with this process, and the head puppet is just one piece of it.

NK: You have done this, so what is it like to be in this whole get up?

CC: The experience is a little different. With something like a king vulture, where we put a great effort into mitigating what we call imprinting on humans, it's a bit of a different experience. We don't treat everything like this to this level. One great thing for us here is this is the first king vulture that's hatched at the Bronx Zoo since the early '90s. So, this is something that, really, a lot of us here hadn't had exact experience with this species. It was a new experience for a lot of individuals here.

NK: I was just gonna say, when you have such a monumental thing, you know a birthday you haven't had before, all the more pressure, though.

CC: Right, there is more pressure when, and it makes it all the more significant, but you always do what's best for the animal.

NK: How often is the baby being fed? When was the last time you or your colleagues were there with the puppet?

CC: Currently, the chick is just over two months old, so it gets fed only once a day. In the early stages, it was being fed multiple times a day, up to seven times a day, a few hours apart from each other at little feedings.

NK: And how was it reacting in those early stages to this parent you've built for them?

CC: We were amazed at how quickly the chick took to the puppet in terms of taking food. So, the first feed that it had took place, you know, half a day or so after the chick hatched. And the chick almost immediately was taking morsels of food from the hand puppet. And even throughout the bird's development, we saw very good signs that the main intent behind the puppet and mitigating imprinting was effective.

NK: Where are its parents?

CC: Its parents are here at the Bronx Zoo. So, both the male and female were paired here at the Bronx Zoo. It was a new pairing. Several years ago, we were recommended to introduce a male and female king vulture, but they're both inexperienced parents. The male is a 55-year-old male, which, you know, I should mention, that's pretty significant, 'cause that's the oldest male king vulture documented to be able to sire a chick at that age. But that individual only has one other living descendant in the zoo population in North America. So, preserving his genetics in the population in the future is very important. And the female is 20 years old, and she is completely inexperienced, hasn't hatched or raised a chick before. So, even though the parents are here, the decision was made to take the egg and hand-rear the chick just to give us the best chances of success raising a healthy individual bird.

NK: If you didn't have this system in place, what are the risks of imprinting?

CC: The bird, absolutely, there's a very, very good chance that it would imprint on humans. Which, you know, the reason we put in all this effort to mitigate the imprinting is really because of that bird developing into the future. It may act aggressively towards caretakers and it may not ever be able to pair the right way with another king vulture and nest successfully on its own.

NK: So, how do you transition, though, away from the very important charade you've all created so that it doesn't need that help?

CC: And that's a very good question. Because after the first month of age, the chick actually graduated from the brooder box to a larger brooder box. And, at this point, it had full visual and acoustic access to another adult king vulture. And it has the ability now 24 hours a day to view this adult king vulture, observe its behaviour, and we have actually witnessed the chick observing the adult king vulture and replicating some of the behaviors that it's observed. So, that was kind of the next step after the puppet rearing.

NK: We all need role models.

CC: Yeah, [NK chuckles] that's for sure.

NK: Does the chick have a name yet, or will it?

CC: The chick does not have a name, but it certainly will. Once it's a little older and maybe after we determine the sex because currently the sex is unknown.

NK: I mean, there's an empty nest joke in here somewhere, I'm sure. [CC chuckles] But when you're done with this kind of project, obviously, you'll have others. But is it hard to let go of?

CC: It can be. It's a very enjoyable experience for us. But deep down, we know that's the ultimate goal of what we're doing and why we do this. So, it's all part of the process. You know, yeah, in some respects, it can be a little bittersweet. But, at the same time, there's always the next chick, you know, for us to obsess over and focus on and really try to knock out of the park.

NK: That is the only time you can say that sentence and it sounds lovely, Chuck. [CC chuckles] Just letting you know. [both laugh] Chuck, I appreciate this. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

CC: Yeah, thank you. That's a lot of fun.

CH: Chuck Cerbini is the curator of ornithology at the Bronx Zoo. He's in New York City.

[psychedelic rock]

Dawson River Winner

CH: It's officially broken. And for Paul Robitaille, that's amazing news. It's a longstanding tradition for people in Yukon to bet on the exact time -- as in the exact date, hour, and minute -- that the ice of the Yukon River will break up. A big wooden tripod connected to a clock is placed on the ice. When water pushes the ice out, it moves, and the clock stops. And this year, Paul Robitaille is one of two people who guessed that moment correctly. He told the CBC how he did it.

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL ROBITAILLE: I think I had seven guesses yesterday, [both laugh] maybe eight the day before, and I think nine today. It's not like it was a perfect science. But sometimes, you know, even a blind squirrel finds a nut, let's say.

ELYN JONES: Yeah, I've never been there when the ice has gone out. What is the experience like? I mean, tell us what you can over the radio to try to, so we get a bit of a sense of what it's like to be there when it happens.

PR: I can tell you standing here right now on the river, the air smells different with the river open. And the breakup itself is just kind of like that breath of fresh air that comes in to announce summer's here, right? And in the days leading up to breakup, you're kind of watching things, the ice kind of degrade a little bit. And sometimes, it's more thunderous and kind of momentous. And sometimes, it just kind of slushed away. But whenever the moment happens, you can just kind of feel this sense of relief in town. And we're always watching it. Yesterday, I mentioned to some of my co-workers that, hey, I got this ticket for 10:56. And I went to a meeting about the breakup. And funny enough, as I'm going there, I got a call from my co-worker saying, hey, you know the tripod's just about to move. And I look at my watch, 10:55, as it starts to go, my watch starts to 10:56, like, oh my goodness! It's like, obviously, this year had a little bit more of a special something to it. But no matter what, it is a moment that is really hard to describe. You really want to experience it. And as a Dawsonite, it's something that, you know, you kind of wait for for six months. It's almost like Christmas Day for spring with it.

EJ: [chuckling] Absolutely. And the river's moving along nicely now because sometimes even though it breaks up, there still can be lots of ice and you can get jamming and that kind of thing down river, but it's moving around nicely where you are?

PR: It looks like it, for sure. And all reports that we heard was that the ice that was in Dawson is now, you know, in the States somewhere. And that's really good news. But mostly, I'm happy to have won a little bit of money.

EJ: What are you going to spend it on?

PR: You know, it's not generational wealth here or anything; it's a few thousand dollars. I'm going to buy my golf membership to the Dawson City Golf Course, best golf course in the Yukon. And you know what I also might do? I might buy some tickets from Vancouver to Spain for the Rolled Gold Tennis Championship in August.

CH: That was Paul Robitaille speaking to Elyn Jones, host of Yukon Morning, today.

[lounge jazz]

Smith Scrum

DS: Well, I can read the media, just as you can. And I can read the polls, just as you can. And Angus Reid did a poll a couple of weeks ago that said that there was an independent support of 25 per cent of Albertans and higher, I think 33 per cent of Saskatchewan residents. That seems to me that the majority of people are not in favour of that. And so, I guess we'll see whether or not they're able to put together a petition, gather enough signatures, and put it to the people. I think you're kind of jumping ahead a few steps.

CH: Alberta Premier Danielle Smith speaking to reporters earlier today.

[ambient]

Part 3: Ukraine Minerals Deal, Feature: Spreadsheet Campions

Ukraine Minerals Deal

Guest: Oleksandr Merezhko

CH: Since taking office, U.S. President Donald Trump has taken a very different approach to the war in Ukraine than his predecessor took. Unlike Joe Biden, President Trump has praised Vladimir Putin, berated Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the Oval Office, and threatened to pull out of the peace process if sufficient progress wasn't made. But yesterday, the U.S. struck a mineral deal with Kyiv that has given some Ukrainians hope. The two countries have agreed to share revenue from the war-battered country's vast supply of untapped natural resources -- including critical minerals. Oleksandr Merezhko is a member of the Ukrainian Parliament and the head of the foreign affairs committee. We reached him in Kyiv.

NK: Oleksandr Merezhko, when a deal like this is signed, I mean, does it allow you to sleep a bit easier?

OLEKSANDR MEREZHKO: Yes, I believe so. Because, you know, we were nervous, there was some turmoil, some misunderstanding, especially taking into consideration what had happened in the Oval Office. But now, I'm hopeful, and many people in Ukraine, many of us feel cautiously optimistic. And the primary reason for that is that it seems like we returned to the status of partner of the United States, and we are winning back trust of President Trump, which is tremendously important in our situation.

NK: Why do you think this agreement was reached now?

OM: Well, I think one of the reasons at least might be symbolic one. I mean, 100 days of President Trump in office. And probably, he needed to demonstrate to his voters that he has another victory related to Ukraine.

NK: What have you been able to learn so far about the specific details in the deal?

OM: I have read this agreement, but I haven't seen yet two additional agreements of technical nature. They are also important because they contain details. As we know, the devil, sometimes, might be in the details. But judging by this framework agreement, well, I would say that it's a win-win for both parties. And we managed to defend our national interests. One of them, which was truly important for us, it's about the aid which was provided before by the United States, not to let it turn into debts. Instead of debts, we have investments.

NK: Are there security guarantees as well?

OM: Actually, there are no, I would say, direct security guarantees in the text of this agreement. Nevertheless, I believe that, first of all, for us, the best kind of security guarantee of political kind is President Trump and his support of Ukraine. And another security guarantee, or quasi-security guarantee, at least, it's American economic interests in Ukraine. Economic interests is excellent motivation for the United States to continue to support Ukraine.

NK: You've been on our show as a guest more than once since the invasion. After the attack on Zaporizia, but also after former US president, Joe Biden's visit. And you talked about that visit potentially making Vladimir Putin panic. What message do you think this deal, under this administration and a president that doesn't really criticize Russia or Vladimir Putin, what message do you think this sends to Putin?

OM: I think it will send a very strong political message. We can view this deal as a sort of deterrent

directed against Putin. And for Putin, it will be more difficult to continue to wage the war of aggression. And it gives us some hope. And what is really important that we are allies, we are partners, with the United States.

NK: How do you think this deal might impact peace talks, one way or the other?

OM: The thing is that to deal with Putin we don't need negotiations. The problem with Putin is that in the past, he never observed, he never complied with any agreements reached whatsoever. And I'm absolutely sure that he will never in the future abide by any agreements which can be reached with him. So, that's why the only way to deal is to put maximum pressure on him, by using sanctions, by providing more military assistance to Ukraine.

NK: Kyiv's mayor told BBC News recently Ukraine may have to give up land as part of a potential peace deal. We know the U.S. has put forward plans that would include ceding land to Russia. If it were to mean peace, ultimately, and others have suggested this might have to happen, but is that something you could support or even stomach?

OM: It's absolutely out of the question, I mean, territorial concessions. Because it's impossible from the perspective of our constitution. It's just simply legally impossible. But, at the same time, we understand that it might take some time for us to return the temporarily occupied by Russia territories. And maybe we'll be using more, relying more not so much on military means as on diplomatic and political means. But what I'm certain about is that, sooner or later, we will return all these territories, including, of course, Crimea.

NK: The U.S. Will not see profits from this deal for at least a decade as things stand now. You talked about the inability to trust Vladimir Putin. What about Donald Trump and what we've seen? You know, the ebbs and flows, to put it mildly, in terms of the relationship between your two countries. You know, you said you were able to sleep better knowing this deal was signed. But is there any part of you that is worried that Donald Trump may not hold up his country's end of the bargain?

OM: When President Trump was elected, I said that he presents both challenge and opportunity for us, and a lot depends on us. I understand that sometimes he is more like a challenge. But, you know, he's president of the greatest country in the world, the most powerful, and we're dependent. We are dependent on military support because it's about the lives of our people. If we don't get American air defence systems like Patriot, lots of civilians will be just killed by Russians. That's why we have no right to give up on President Trump. By the way, in one of his interviews, he was given advice, and he said, this advice is don't give up. So, we, Ukraine, we don't t give up President Trump.

NK: Oleksandr, I appreciate this, thank you.

OM: Thank you.

CH: Oleksandr Merezhko is a Ukrainian MP, and the head of the foreign affairs committee in Ukrainian parliament. He's in Kyiv.

[eerie instrumental]

Woodpecker Update

CH: Generally speaking, when a whole bunch of cars get vandalized in a single community, people in that community get upset. But in Rockport, Massachusetts, residents are keeping it surprisingly cool. Earlier this month, we told you about a woodpecker -- maybe more than one woodpecker -- that is, or are, wreaking havoc in the quiet seaside town, by furiously smashing side mirrors. Experts say it has its reasons. Which are that it's spring mating season, and the pileated woodpecker is mistaking its reflection in the mirrors for a rival, and attacking. Weeks later, the bird, or birds, is, or are, still at it. The Associated Press went to Rockport this week to speak to locals, who seem more entertained than enraged by the vandalism.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: We're dealing with a woodpecker that likes to break mirrors. We've had close to 25 mirrors in the last three or four weeks broken. I know this, my one on my truck has just been replaced. But my brother had a couple, all of the neighbours have had two or three. So, I think we were up to 25 last count. Initially, we just noticed that all the mirrors had been adjusted. It looked like somebody, maybe there's a child in the neighbourhood that was going around pushing the mirrors down, but that would be very unusual here. And then, we noticed, one morning, my sister-in-law came out and she saw a woodpecker on my truck, actually, picking at the mirror and noticed that it was broken. And then, she noticed there was a couple others that were broken as well. It's fun, it's been a fun story. I guess it's a distraction from all that's going on in the world, which is kind of cool. Nobody's really angry that the birds are breaking the mirrors, but it is, you know, it is a little bit of a nuisance, but nobody wants any harm to the bird. He's welcome to come back any time. Yeah, that's what we've been told, is that it's likely a male woodpecker. It's mating season, and he thinks he sees competition in the mirror, and he's trying to scare it away. Most of them are laughing like we are. They're not angry with him. He's just doing his normal bird stuff. And, unfortunately, it's costing us a little bit of money, but it's kind of fun to see. It's something that we hadn't seen here for forever.

WOMAN: Well, I just hope that they wouldn't hurt the woodpecker. Because woodpeckers have to do what woodpeckers do, especially during mating season. And you see, look at yourself in the mirror. Sometimes you do have to peck at that mirror. You don't like what you see. Da-da-da, da-da. I think that's the music that goes with the Woody Woodpecker cartoon.

CH: [chuckling] Residents of Rockport, Massachusetts talking about the vandal woodpecker waging an all-out war on car mirrors in several neighbourhoods there.

[chillhop]

Feature: Spreadsheet Campions

Guest: Kristina Kraskov

CH: I'm sure that a lot of you out there use Microsoft Excel on a daily basis. And maybe you like it. But I don't use a spreadsheet unless I'm absolutely forced to. And I definitely don't use Excel in my spare time, to work on creative projects, or explore all its thrilling functions. I don't really understand the functions I already use. But a perhaps surprising number of people don't just enjoy using Microsoft Excel -- they love it. They live and breathe it. Around the world, there are several Excel competitions -- and they are serious business. We've interviewed the winner of one such competition on this show. Now, some young Excel masterminds are the subject of a new documentary. Spreadsheet Champions follows young people from six different countries as they compete in the Excel section of the Microsoft Office Specialist World Championships in Florida. And the pressure is on.

SOUNDCLIP

[tense music]

MAN: So, you have this group of people who might be nerds, you know, they're geeks, they are representing their country in a competition that is brutal. They know the stakes are high, but it's gonna change that person's life forever. They'll forever be the world champion. You know, not everybody walks away with a medal.

CH: Spreadsheet Champions is screening at this year's Hot Docs festival, which continues this week in Toronto. Kristina Kraskov is the director of the film. She joined Nil in studio for a feature conversation.

NK: Welcome to As It Happens, Kristina.

KRISTINA KRASKOV: Thank you for having me.

NK: I think it's fair to say that a lot of people don't even know that a competition like this one exists. Was this a world you were part of before and wanted to feature? You know, what made you think people need to see this and see it up close?

KK: I had no idea about this world at all. And I came across an article that said this kid is the best in the country and he's going to be in the world competition for Excel. I couldn't believe it existed. I had so many questions. So, I did a bit of a deep dive and came to really love the world. And I just knew that people would love it and I had to make a film about it.

NK: So, there are six competitors in this film, ranging in age, but, you know, teenage or early teens, to a little bit later, early twenties, I think, different countries, Cameroon, Australia, Greece, Guatemala, Vietnam, United States as well. I wanna play two clips from your film now for our listeners. First, we're gonna hear from Carmina who represents Guatemala, and then Mason who's from the United States.

SOUNDCLIP

CARMINA: This is my room tour. So, here we have the desk where I do my studies, homework. Here is where I keep all my mess. My One Direction book and One Direction perfume.

NK: So, that's Carmina and here's Mason.

SOUNDCLIP

MASON: I have always thought I am a bizarre person. And I know that! And I know that everyone knows that I'm ridiculous. I'm always interested in complicated buttony things, you know? [rock] I use Excel more than most people would in my day-to-day life. I mean, you can understand that. I'm a complete nerd. I'm very social nerd at that. You can ask my friends. But, yeah.

NK: So, Carmina and Mason there. You really, I never thought he was ridiculous, by the way. But, you know, he clearly has fun with it. You see the range there, just in those two competitors. What did you learn about why they all gravitated towards spreadsheets?

KK: I think they all are so, so, so different. They come from different countries. They have different families, different values. But the one thing they share is just being drawn to math and technology from a really young age. And that world just being entirely comfortable for them. So, I think that is really the only thing that all six of them have in Mason is probably more a bit what you would expect to find, but you probably don't expect to love him as much as people do. [NK chuckles] And Carmina, she was cool and popular and had a lot of friends. And she's so funny. That was quite a shock, but amazing to see.

NK: And, well, her One Direction request [KK chuckles] at one point in the film. Have they seen, or has her favorite member seen the film yet?

KK: We don't have any news on that front, but we are going to try. [NK chuckles] We're gonna try and make her dreams come true. [chuckling]

NK: Okay, that's just a sidebar -- an important one. But yet, you know, and Carmina's mother saying at one point that she talks in her sleep and she talks about solving problems, but also wanted to be a youtuber at one point. Was it important to you to show that kind of range?

KK: I think we did want to get competitors that were completely different from each other. And with the first time we met her, she was immediately so charismatic and funny and confident. And you probably wouldn't know that she's into, as into, maths and formulas as she is. So, it was important to show that your typical girls can be so much more than just hardcore One Direction fans.

NK: Yes. And she's certainly not the only young woman in the film. And you see that tenacity and that drive and that desire for other people to see that, as well as their teachers, that young women, are and it shouldn't be surprising that they're interested in it. The competition itself, challenging is probably the right word without having, you know, seen the materials up close. But there's a lot of secrecy involved in what is actually in the test. Tell our listeners just, you know, broad strokes, what they're up against here.

KK: Yeah. So, basically, they have 100 minutes. They've all won their national competition. So, they have done a very hard test. They are already the best in their country, but this test is another level. The creator being, he's a bit of an evil genius type. [NK chuckle] He likes to make sure that, you know, it's really challenging. If someone doesn't cry, it wasn't hard enough. And so, what they have to do, there's three sections. Basically, it's all about knowing the backend of Excel. So, your average accountant might use 20 per cent. They're expected to know 70 to 80 per cent of all of the functions and formulas available. They have to do that with a lot of speed, a lot precision, and then there's an aspect of creativity in there as well.

NK: They talk about the drama of opening the envelope with the brief that they get to launch that third creative section. You had rare access into this room that they're all sitting there typing away at their keyboards, and keyboard strategy is a whole nother part of it. [KK chuckles] But with the atmosphere in that room, what was it like?

KK: It was so tense and so stressful. And 100 minutes is a long time, but it felt so quick. And as a filmmaker, you have to just step back and let them go. There's some things that happen in the test, I won't give them away, but it was extremely difficult not to console them in those moments. [chuckling] But it felt really special, as much as it was incredibly stressful and tense.

NK: And you mentioned the evil genius. What does he think about being seen that way?

KK: I was worried that he wouldn't want to be seen like that, [chuckling] but we had the premiere at South by Southwest, and he came along. And he was like, well that's the truth, I don't care, so. [chuckling]

NK: Yeah, he didn't come across as cruel to me, exacting, but I did find it touching in those moments where there were emotional and difficult moments. He was direct, but there was always that sense that it's okay, there's a solution.

KK: And no one's going to like the person in that job. [NK chuckles] Like, they have to find the best in the world. And they have make people completely fail in that job. So, it's a tough job, but he does it, he's the perfect person for it.

NK: We have a clip about the test, we'll listen to that now together.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: The competition content that Bing has created, he stretches what you will know about Excel, and he will punish you. Bing is not an evil genius. Bing is precise and methodical. He is focused on creating a challenge that will truly measure an individual's greatness.

NK: Do you understand how the test works? I mean, do you make spreadsheets? Are they a part of your life? Or was it all a foreign language to you?

KK: I would abysmally fail at this competition. [NK chuckles] I use them in a very surface level way. But I'm more interested in people that are so passionate about things that are often overlooked. So, but, you know, I learned a lot through this process. And the test is difficult for someone that uses Excel every day, you know, in a more complex way. There's not many people in the world that would be able to understand it in the way that the competitors and Bing do.

NK: It's lovely to hear from their teachers, as well as their families, and the teachers being able to say openly, you know, they're really great at this, but this is what might trip them up, or when their families can't be there, how just, how anyone at any age would feel in a completely different environment. Was it difficult to get that kind of access?

KK: Surprisingly, not really. I think a lot of the countries, it's not normal to have two random Australians come to your house and interview you. So, the fact that we went all the way there and were very open about what we wanted. And we hung out with them off camera and had dinner and just explained that we only wanted to capture what was realistic for them. It didn't take long to get close with them. And they all know their children so, so well. I really thought that we would have some kind of, like, stage parents who were obsessed with their child being the best. But they were all very down to earth and just very supportive and they very intimately knew all of their child's strengths and weaknesses as, as parents do.

NK: That was really interesting to see in the film as well, the pressure being put on these competitors is in large part by them, how hard they are. And also, it's so endearing how much they wanna represent their countries and their families because it's not just a plaque or a medal. It's a payoff for what they've all put into them. That really got me.

KK: Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, in a lot of Western countries, going to school isn't that cool or important. And you really do see both sides of that, you know, particularly with Carmina and Nam, school is really important for them. They take it really seriously. And they do amazingly.

NK: I'm Nil Köksal, and you are listening to As It Happens. And my guest in studio today is Kristina Kraskov, director of the new documentary, Spreadsheet Champions. Our listeners may, you know, be clocking that we've done a few interviews on Excel championships. We spoke with Michael Jarman a couple of times, he won the world championship last year. The first time we spoke, I think he was just shy of that win. That's a different environment, it's not a test, it is a competition, there are levels, but does the tension and excitement that people have now come to know a little bit from that kind of championship, do you see that in this room as well? Did you see that similar kind of energy?

KK: I mean a lot of these students, this is the first time they've ever been to another country. So, it's just an overwhelming experience and there is a lot of tension and excitement for them. This is, for some of them, it's their greatest passion and it's a really big deal. But I think it's just amazing to see these interests being finally being recognized. You know, these are elite athletes we need to cheer them on.

NK: Yes. Why do you think it's come to this stage now? Why is it suddenly bubbling up to the mainstream more?

KK: I think when you talk to anyone about Excel, they either love it or they hate it. [NK chuckles] I met someone yesterday and they told me that it had a profound impact on their day-to-day life and the way they see the world. And that's beautiful. And some people might hate it because it's part of their office job day-to-day. And that's okay, too. But I just, I love that it's something almost so universal. Yet, no one sees it as a serious passion like perhaps music or sports, but it is, yeah.

NK: Given how passionate these competitors are, and how much time you and your team spent with them, was it difficult to watch them struggle? I know you said earlier that to not intervene was hard, but as you see the entire arc, right, we're not gonna give away what happens, but was that difficult?

KK: Yeah. They, you know, there's six of them and they're young and they all have all of their hopes and dreams riding on this. Some might admit it more than others, how important it is, but you know it's important to all of them. It was really difficult. We spent time with them in their home countries and it was even difficult to leave and see them again in a few weeks in Florida. And the awards ceremony, you know, I won't say what happens, but I was filming that with my camera, also trying to not cry. [chuckling] It was really difficult, but my filmmaker brain just knew that this was amazing and this was important, so I just had to try my best.

NK: Yeah, you have to capture those moments and we're not going to give it away. But you do say very clearly, and we know that not everyone can walk away a winner. But were you surprised knowing what you knew about each of the competitors, you know, were you surprised by how they did?

KK: Yeah, particularly with what happened in the test and how they told us that they went, it was a complete shock. It was a real shock. We weren't sure it was true. [NK laughs] We had to, like, double check the results, but they were. And I think it's a very interesting outcome.

NK: Yeah, it was certainly interesting to watch. What did they teach you in the end?

KK: I think there's a lot of stereotypes about teenagers and young people. And they taught me that those aren't really true, they have so much to offer. A lot of people say, oh, I'm worried about the future with this generation, but I had the complete opposite experience. I'm so excited to see what they do, yeah.

NK: You've had a few screenings now. What kind of reaction did you get from the audience?

KK: People are laughing, they are gasping, they are crying at all of the times I wanted them to. [laughing] So, that's kind of the best experience as a director. We had a school screening full of about 600 teenagers. I was so nervous for this. And by the --

NK: Why? Because teenagers are not known for being expressive? [both laugh]

KK: Yeah. And some of them were just so cool, you know? [chuckling] And I was really worried that they wouldn't like it. It's about them in a way. So, but by the end of the film, they were screaming, all of them cheering yes and no with the results. That's honestly been my highlight of being here in Toronto. It was the best.

NK: That must feel like a win for you, that you won a world championship in this.

KK: It really did. I don't think I'll ever experience 600 teenagers screaming in joy at something that I've created, so it's really special.

NK: Well, I'm so glad we got to speak, Kristina, thank you.

KK: Thank you.

CH: Kristina Kraskov is the director of Spreadsheet Champions, which is playing at the Hot Docs festival in Toronto this week. She was in the As It Happens studio earlier today.

[jazz]

Robotic Vacuums

CH: Well, we're nearly there. Almost at the end of another edition of As It Happens. And, you know, I love co-hosting this show each night, but it can be tiring work. By the end of it, sometimes I'm struggling to...what was I saying? Oh yeah: concentrate. So I often find myself craving some kind of pick-me-up. Just a sip of something to get me through the last few scripts. But I can't just go running around in search of caffeine or something stronger. I'm on the air! With you! Which is why I recently decided to follow the lead of researchers from the University of Bath and the University of Calgary, and reprogrammed my -- [vacuum noises] [shouting] Sorry, I reprogrammed my Roomba! It's so great! It helps me out with all kinds of stuff now, not just keeping the studio clean. It can even...I'm so sorry...just a sec here. [vacuum fades, beer cracks open]

CH: Thanks for the delivery there, Roomba. Ahhhh! Now, okay, what was I saying? Oh yeah, it can even help keep me hydrated. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. If you don't believe me, ask those researchers I mentioned. They identified no fewer than a hundred tasks that robotic vacuums could conceivably perform, with minimal modifications. Everything from following you around with a mobile phone charger to helping you check whether you left your oven on remotely. It's all part of proving the scientists' central claim that such robotic devices are, quote, "under-used for practical tasks." Just a sec, [can cracks] Um -- hey Roomba?? [shouting] Look, maybe it's a little loud. But compared to a lot of what machines are doing for us these days, it doesn't completely suck.

The AIH Transcript For May 01, 2025

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