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The AIH transcript for May 16, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Skating on thin ice. The trial of five ex-world junior hockey players accused of sexual assault is thrown into disarray once again, as the judge discharges the jury for a second time.

CH: When the smoke clears. A doctor who ran for his life when wildfires hit Los Angeles this year tells us the aftermath hasn't been easy -- so he set up a clinic to help others and, in some ways, himself.

NK: Ready sets, go. I'll speak with the man who has served as the head carpenter for Saturday Night Live since the very first episode -- on the eve of his very last episode.

CH: He put on more than a happy face. A member of the original cast of the classic musical Annie remembers composer Charles Strouse -- for the joy and vulnerability he put into every song.

NK: Belly up to the bar. Students at Vancouver Island University are hard at work baking up a single Nanaimo bar -- that's more than 21 meters long and weighs some 500 kilos. Do not get me started on Nanaimo bars.

CH: Really, seriously, do not. [NK chuckles] And...they could actually have used some neighsayers. A couple in England promised to build a storage facility for horse semen, but just built a house instead. And now their lie is going to get that house knocked down.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio thinks they should have just built up an equine cellar.

[theme]

Part 1: Hockey Trial Update, SNL Carpenter, B.C. Nanaimo Bar Record

Hockey Trial Update

Guest: Jacques Gallant

CH: Today, the trial of five former world junior hockey players took another unexpected turn. Justice Maria Carroccia told the court in London, Ontario that the trial had been compromised -- after a number of jurors said one of the defence teams appeared to be making fun of them. The defense lawyers vigorously denied that claim. But the judge said she had no choice but to discharge the jury. It's the second jury to be discharged in the case. The five players are accused of sexually assaulting a 20-year-old woman in a hotel in London, Ontario in 2018. The complainant was on the stand for nine gruelling days of testimony, including cross-examination by five different defence lawyers. Jacques Gallant is covering the case for the Toronto Star. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Jacques, from what you saw, what was the reaction when the judge delivered this news?

JACQUES GALLANT: I would say the defense seemed to be expecting that this was what was going to happen. And I think that the Crown, on the other hand, was quite a bit disappointed because they really wanted to keep going with this jury trial. And had made clear that they really, really did not want to keep moving forward with just a judge alone after having now presented most of their case to this jury.

NK: And what did you think as someone who's been following and working on this case?

JG: I thought the result was inevitable, I really did. I didn't see how you could keep going with this jury after multiple jurors complained that two defence lawyers were appearing to make fun of them. As the judge herself said in her ruling, that impacts the ability of the accused men to have a fair trial, really, if multiple members of the jury appear to have negative perceptions of their lawyers.

NK: This started with a note from a juror, yes?

JG: It did, yes, on Thursday morning. Yes.

NK: And what did the judge tell you about what the juror was saying?

JG: So, this was very much a shocking turn of events. So, the judge came into the courtroom and said she received this note from one juror, which indicated that multiple jury members feel we are being judged and made fun of by Alex Formenton's lawyers, Daniel Brown and Hilary Dudding. And the note went on to say that every day when we enter the courtroom, they observe us, whisper to each other, turn to each and laugh as if they are discussing our appearance. And the note concluded with a line that said, this is unprofessional and unacceptable. I gotta tell you, that was really shocking to everyone. I've never seen something like that before.

NK: Yeah, I've never encountered that in the court reporting I did either. This is a very high-profile trial, obviously. But from your vantage point, did you see any of that kind of behaviour?

JG: No, honestly, no, I didn't. And, um, you know, the judge herself said, uh, after reading the note, she said, I don't know where this is coming from, referring to the concerns in the note. Because she said every day when I look out at the courtroom and look at the five defence teams and their clients, I haven't seen anything that has caused me any concern. Otherwise, I would have mentioned it. You know, everyone rises, including the lawyers, when the jury comes in. And everyone's just looking for the most part straight at the jury until they sit down. So, it was very surprising to me as well to hear the jury's concerns on this.

NK: So, a big question that a lot of people not in that courtroom who are certainly watching what is happening with this trial. You know, when they hear something like this, they wonder. What does that mean for the testimony that's already been delivered is this case going to continue? Is testimony continuing from where it left off, just now with a judge?

JG: It is, yes. The witnesses that have already testified at this trial, including the complainant in the case, who spent nine days on the stand, which is an extremely long time for anyone to be testifying, they will not have to come back. So, the case just proceeds kind of business as usual, but just with a judge this time and not a jury. And so, as soon as the judge made a ruling this morning and dismissed the jury, the Crown immediately brought back their witness who had been testifying yesterday, a hockey player who hasn't been charged in this case, but who witnessed some events in the hotel room, and continued from there. Almost as if nothing had happened, it just went on from there.

NK: In terms of the complainant and those nine days on the stand, questioned, grilled, as many have characterized it, by those five defence lawyers. Briefly, if you could, give our listeners a sense of what she conveyed on that stand.

JG: So, what she conveyed is she made very clear that she wasn't actually consenting to any of the sexual activity that took place in that hotel room, even though the defence was repeatedly putting suggestions to her that she was demanding to have sex with players, that it was her idea to have multiple players come into the room to do that. She rejected all of that and made clear that she actually wasn't consenting. Her main point that she really wanted to get across, I think, is that the way she described it is her mind separated from her body because she was in a room surrounded by men she didn't know. And so, she was just engaging in that activity as a way of protecting herself.

NK: She said it began as a consensual encounter with one player. She went up to the room believing that that was what was going to happen. And did not expect, as she testified, what happened after that.

JG: Multiple men coming in afterwards, no.

NK: You talked about you never encountering anything like this, and I suspect many of the other correspondents covering this trial might say the same thing. The fact that there have been so many disruptions, complications, we can put it that way. What should listeners take away from that?

JG: I think it just goes to show how difficult it can be to manage a jury trial with multiple accused people. There are five accused men in this trial with a lot of media attention. And it's just very difficult to kind of keep things moving along as efficiently as possible. I think the lawyers in particular learn to be more vigilant in what they say and what they do because of the risk of it being perceived differently by members of a jury. And so, I do suspect that now that it's going to go ahead as a judge-alone trial that we might actually see less disruptions than we've seen in the last few weeks. I really do.

NK: And Jacques, just before we let you go, our CBC News colleagues have been reporting from the courthouse as well. And as you well know, because of what has happened with this jury, because these folks have been discharged, you're now able to report what was happening earlier in the courtroom. And one of the things that came up was that there were supporters in the courtroom of the complainant. What kinds of things were happening just overall that you can now report?

JG: Yes, there were a few things that happened that we couldn't report. There were protesters or people supporting the complainant who were outside the courthouse every day with signs saying things like believe survivors, and chanting. And the number of protesters kept growing. And so, there were concerns expressed in court between the judge and the lawyers that this could be intimidating to the jury. And so, they started having the jury come in through a different non-public entrance of the courthouse. And also, there was another incident in which the co-founder of an organization called False Allegations Canada was called out by the judge early on in the trial in the jury's absence for appearing to wear smart glasses, and the judge was that he might have been recording.

NK: Extraordinary doesn't seem to cover it, Jacques.

JG: No.

NK: I do appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

JG: Thank you for having me.

CH: Jacques Gallant is a reporter for the Toronto Star. He's in Toronto.

[sombre piano]

SNL Carpenter

Guest: Stephen DeMaria

CH: As we speak, the writers and cast of Saturday Night Live are frantically working away in their offices at the NBC studios at 30 Rock, preparing for tomorrow night's show -- which is the last of the 50th season. And meanwhile, across the East River, at a production house in Brooklyn's Navy Yards, a team of carpenters is building the sets for this week's sketches. And for the entire 50 years of SNL's run -- even before the very first show aired in 1975 -- one man has been in charge of that work. And this Saturday's show will be his last. Eighty-seven-year-old Stephen DeMaria -- who's also known as "Dee-Mo" -- is SNL's head carpenter. And at 1 a.m. on Sunday, he'll officially retire. We reached Stephen DeMaria in Brooklyn.

NK: Stephen, I know you're in the middle of it, you're the thick of it, we won't keep you too long. What are you working on right now?

STEPHEN DEMARIA: Well, they're all done already. There's, altogether, we did twelve sets, and it's going to be on TV Saturday night. It goes on TV 11:30.

NK: Yeah, I watch every week.

SD: And then, after that, there's an SNL party [NK chuckles] in the main skating ring for everybody who work for SNL.

NK: Are you going to go to that party?

SD: Yes, I expect to go. And there's a few other people that work here that are going to go. And I understand Lorne Michaels will be there and his whole crew. And I understand that anybody that's alive from 1975 that started SNL will be there.

NK: That's an amazing thing. It's quite a show you work on, certainly. You're part of television history, but that kind of relationship.

SD: Every time there's a show, we do it on a Thursday and Friday. We do it in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. That's the last place we did it all over. Besides the Navy Yard, we did it in the building. Now, it's done in the Navy Yard. On a Thursday, there'll be about 42 carpenters doing it. And we get the sets to do, and it gets shipped out to Radio City NBC.

NK: So, 12 to 14 sets, you said. How much time did you have, those are ready now for tomorrow.

SD: Well, everything is done because now we just got to wait for they call it cold opening.

NK: Yeah.

SD: The last set. And we do Weekend Update tonight. And some sets, they don't put on, some sets they do use, but there's a total sometimes of 12 sets, 14 sets.

NK: How do you do it so quickly?

SD: Well, with 47 carpenters here, we do it. [both chuckling].

NK: You keep them in line?

SD: Yep. Yep. [NK chuckles] I've been doing this since, this is going on 51 years for me. It started, SNL started in 1975.

NK: You started right with it, right?

SD: Yes, right with it, but I started one year before that because we did all the metal work in the studio 8-H proceeding. And that's all scaffolding, which they made seating out of it, and that was done in 1974. And it went on and on. And this is my last show, I'm retiring. I'm not going to be here anymore, and I'm going to go to the party Saturday night at 11:30.

NK: [warm chuckle] What kept you doing this for so long? I mean, it's fun, maybe, but it's a long time. Did you ever want to quit?

SD: No. I started learning carpentry when I was 14. I worked for a clapper company, I was in the Brotherhood. I worked on a World's Fair. We worked and built houses, warehouses. I worked on americana building 47 stories up. So, I really learned carpentry when I was 14. I worked in a cabinet shop.

NK: Wow! When did you get the nickname Dee-Mo?

SD: Well, I really got the name in 1964, when I did the Perry Como Show, way back in Brooklyn. There were two studios there at East 14th Street, Avenue M. Two studios, and we did Perry Como, we did As the World Turns, and a lot of films, and a lot films. I could tell you the truth, I was born and raised in Brooklyn in the '50s. I never had a bored day in my life 'till now. [NK chuckles] I mean, listen, I just, I got interviews from all over, the New York Post, New York Times, even a medical journal I was in. [both laugh].

NK: Why a medical journal? Are you a medical marvel?

SD: 'Cause I'm gonna be 88. I'm still driving, I don't wear glasses, and I still move around. And I built my own house in Staten Island way back in the '50s.

NK: Wow! Well, we should all be taking notes. We should all be taking notes. Can you pick a favourite? I mean, even from the SNL sets, do you have a favorite that you really loved building?

SD: Well, I'll tell you the truth. A lot of people ask me, Dee-Mo, what do you consider the best show for SNL? They're all good shows. But my favourite was the first 12 years. When it was John Belucci and all of these fellas. Eddie Murphy. AMAZING MAN! At the 50th anniversary, he looks terrific. [NK chuckles] He looks terrific. I'm telling you, [chuckling] he's a good-looking man, [NK laughs] and I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

NK: What are you going to do now that you're not going to be doing that busy work on Thursdays?

SD: Well, now, I've got a lot. Unfortunately, I was married 62 years. I lost my wife three-and-a-half years ago.

NK: Oh, I'm sorry.

SD: Right now, I'm living with two cats. [both chuckle]

NK: What are their names?

SD: I love animals. Little Blackie and Sandy. And I'd lost, my wife was unbelievable. I got married when I was 17.

NK: Oh, Stephen. I'm so sorry.

SD: [crying] You got to excuse me.

NK: No, it's okay.

SD: So, I went on from there and here. I got all my family in Jersey and I live in Staten Island. I'm grateful for everything I'm having done today, I know. And I tell you the truth, I didn't have a bored day in my life. Never. Even now.

NK: That is a beautiful thing, Stephen. I feel so lucky that we had a chance to speak. I hope you enjoy all of the celebration and the love that these cast members new and old are going to give you. Because, you've given them a lot, it sounds like.

SD: Yep. Okay.

NK: Please take care.

SD: Bye-bye.

NK: Bye.

CH: Until the end of tomorrow night's show, Stephen DeMaria is the head carpenter for Saturday Night Live. We reached him in Brooklyn, New York.

[smooth instrumental]

B.C. Nanaimo Bar Record

Guest: Aron Weber

CH: At Vancouver Island University this weekend, students will unveil a project that's both massive and tasteful. And the tastes are chocolate, custard, and coconut. Aron Weber has been helping put together the event. He's chair of Professional Baking and Pastry Arts at the university. We reached him yesterday in the deliciously named Nanaimo, British Columbia.

NK: Chef, what exactly will you be serving up this weekend?

ARON WEBER: It's going to be a 70-foot long, 1,100-pound Nanaimo bar. So, we're going big.

NK: Just a light snack.

AW: Yeah, just a light snack, but with, hopefully, a few thousand guests.

NK: Yes. Why did you decide to do this?

AW: This initiative was actually conceptualized by some students in our baking diploma program a few years back. So, we were speaking about ways to promote a business. And just being in Nanaimo, it sort of made sense to look up, you know, what was the world record for a Nanaimo bar. And so, at that time, we did find that the world record was located in Ontario.

NK: Right.

AW: So, it kind of lit the spark that, you know, we're very proud of our Nanaimo bar here.

NK: Sure.

AW: And kind of lit the spark that we should bring it back, that record to Nanaimo, and do it at the university.

NK: You know better than most that the precision and the execution needed to make sure the results of, you know, what you're baking or pastries turn out perfectly, right? So, how do you go about assembling all of this on Saturday. They're already at work, right?

AW: Oh yeah, so we started production on Tuesday. How we're putting it together is in a modular form. So, we are doing the base and the custard layer over these next few days. And on the day of the events, we're going to be sandwiching that all together. Down at the Windsor Plywood Trades Discovery Centre on Wakesiah Avenue here in Nanaimo. And then we're going to, our carpentry students are actually building the frame for it. And at that point, once the frame is up, we will be pouring the chocolate on it, I guess in one motion. I'm sort of visualizing what that's going to look like at this point.

NK: How? What kind of idea do you have? [chuckling].

AW: It's, I mean, just with the glaze itself, it's over 200 pounds of glaze that's going to be going on top. So, yeah, I haven't decided if we're going to, like, start at both ends and meet in the middle, or, yeah, we'll figure that one out on Saturday.

NK: And how many students in total are working on this?

AW: We've got probably, I think, 50 students that'll be working on this, that have been working on it the last few days, and will be at the event. We're also very happy, actually, the four students that conceptualized this idea are coming back for the event. They've been out in industry. A couple of them are coming from, they've been working abroad in Scotland. We have one that's working in Vancouver and one that is working in Ladysmith. So, they're all doing excellent in industry, and we're super proud of them. We're really happy that they can actually come back. And I blame them. [NK laughs] It's their idea for getting us into this. So, but it's great that they get to come and be a part of it and see it come to life.

NK: For sure. You talked about the pride. That's apparent, certainly. What recipe are you going to be using? Because there are variations.

AW: Um, just for, for, um, for the record, so, um, I mean, Guinness is kind of like the recognized authority on world records. But In the spirit of this event, we are doing this for our students and for fundraising, actually, for hopefully to purchase a few new ovens for our baking and culinary arts program. And it was just a bit cost-prohibitive to go with Guinness. So, we are having two third-party national organizations certify the record. So, that would be the Baking Association of Canada and the Culinary Federation of Canada. That will be, we have documentation from the recipe, we've been filming all the steps that have been taken, and they'll be here on Saturday to certify that record.

NK: And, I mean, are you a fan of these treats?

AW: Am I a fan of these treats? Um, yeah. It's funny, I'm a pastry chef.

NK: Uh-huh.

AW: I've been a pastry chef for 30 years, and I don't have a sweet tooth. And I don t know if that's because I'm half made of sugar at this point [NK laughs] for doing it so long. But I always enjoy, like, different flavours. But, you know, I do like a little taste of something sweet once in a while. I love that Nanaimo bars are Canadian and they're from Nanaimo. But it's not, you know, necessarily my go-to sweet, but it is for a lot of people. Honestly, we make it all the time in the baking program. And it's probably our biggest seller.

NK: Chef, I have to keep my journalistic integrity intact, [both chuckle] but I'm feeling very vindicated to hear what you just said there. They can be pretty, this topic gets pretty heated around our As It Happens snack table, I'll tell you that. For for someone who might not be a fan, or who has never had a good Nanaimo bar in their life, what would you say to sell them on it?

AW: You know, if you just need that pick me up and just a little bit of that sugar rush energy.

NK: [chuckling] A little? Just a little bit.

AW: To get you through the day. And, you know what? You don't have to eat it all at once. Like, when I have something sweet, I'm gonna have, like, a tablespoon worth of something, just a little bite. And that's quite enjoyable. We don't have to overindulge in things. But I do encourage people on Saturday to overindulge because we're going to have [chuckling] a 70-foot long one, right?

NK: [chuckling] Well, listen, I hope it all gets snapped up while it's fresh. If you have leftovers, then what?

AW: There might be some leftovers. It's hard to say. But we will save a little bit for the local food bank. So, we just definitely want to make sure that we're supportive in that aspect. But yeah, we're hoping that most of it will go. I mean, there's a lot of excitement building up this week around the event, so we're really hoping for a good turnout.

NK: Thanks for this chef, I appreciate it.

AW: Yeah, no problem.

CH: Aron Weber is chair of Professional Baking and Pastry Arts at Vancouver Island University. He's in Nanaimo.

[winding instrumental]

Stallion Semen House Demo

CH: And now, join me for a chilling episode of our new series: Horsecrime.

[a horse neighs, CH says “Horse Crime” with distortion. This is some soul/swing while horse clop]

CH: The year was 2014. The Pharrell Williams song Happy was at the top of the charts. And South Cambridgeshire District Council, in the U.K., was happy: it had signed off on the construction of a great addition to the community: a horse laboratory that would collect and store stallion semen. And you know who else was happy? The couple that had applied to build that laboratory. But don't "clap along" -- because unlike what Pharrell sang in his feel-good hit, their happiness was not "the truth".

[distorted Happy by Pharrell Williams, with CH saying “Horse Crime” hushed]

CH: Soon enough, the couple built their building. And it looked exactly like the promised stallion semen storage facility...from the outside. But on the inside, skulduggery was afoot. For the couple had not built a stallion semen storage facility at all. They had simply built a house, in which they were collecting furniture, knick-knacks, and memories -- but no horse semen at all.

[a horse neighs, CH says “Horse Crime” in a hushed echo]

CH: Well, their subterfuge was exposed. And now -- in the words of Pharrell's mega-hit Happy -- their house is about to feel "like a room without a roof". Because South Cambridgeshire District Council has ordered them to tear it down altogether. They appealed that decision, but this week a planning inspector denied their appeal, saying there's a, quote, "lack of any clear record of the semen collection and analysis business," unquote. And that it appears they never intended to build a special lab -- just a normal house. So, said house will be demolished. Now, unlike Pharrell's 2014 chart-topper Happy, no one is happy. The couple is losing their home. And the council is exhausted from screaming themselves "no horse".

[lofi]

Part 2: Palisades Doctor, Charles Strouse Obit

Palisades Doctor

Guest: Ashraf Elsayegh

CH: It's been four months since the Palisades fire laid waste to parts of Los Angeles -- but its aftermath is still very much being felt today. When the fire ripped through the city, it displaced hundreds of people and burned over 6,000 structures -- including the home of Dr. Ashraf Elsayegh, who says that means ash, smoke, and an incredibly high level of toxins, which poses serious risks to people's health. So, Dr. Elsayegh set up a new clinic, to help out residents of the affected area. We reached him in Los Angeles.

NK: Doctor, it's been months now since the fires, but I wonder for you if it feels like just yesterday, or, a long time ago?

ASHRAF ELSAYEGH: Unfortunately, I'm constantly dealing with both the patients and then everything with my own home. So, as much as we keep getting further and further away from the actual fires, it still feels just like yesterday that we have to deal with all of this.

NK: And You went right back to work after the fire hit your neighbourhood. What do you remember about what those first hours were like?

AE: I was in a daze. We had to evacuate our home that morning. I decided to go to work a little bit late, it was my son's last day of his winter break. Unfortunately, the fires started and we had to evacuate. So, after I got my family out to my mother's house where she lives, uh, somewhat nearby, and everyone was safe, I had to immediately go back to work to see my patients and everyone else that evening. It was a surreal feeling, not knowing if my house survived the fire, and what's going on with my neighbours and my neighbourhood. And yet, still having to be able to manage these patients in the hospital.

NK: And it was those conversations, the questions from patients as I understand it that started you on this train of thought that a clinic like this might be necessary. What were they asking?

AE: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, during the fire, we had to evacuate our home. So we were, myself and maybe 200, 300 other people, we're trapped on that road until the firemen were able to open up the road and let us out. So, during that almost six hours, I was already in my scrubs. So, many of the 200, 300 people that were stuck there, for whatever reason, approached me asking me questions. On top of that, I had all of my friends that live in the area were texting me questions. And, of course, family members were texting me questions. You know, my daughter has asthma. What should we do? I have emphysema, how safe is it for me right now? What should we do? How far away should we get from the fires? So, these were the type of questions of immediately just immediate health questions.

NK: Those would be expected, I think, probably in most fire situations, but this was beyond what people imagine, what we report on across Canada as well, wildfires. This was tearing through the city. So, that added another dimension. And You were in New York City during the September 11th attacks and the aftermath. How did that inform the decision to do this?

AE: Yes, absolutely. So, for me, as we developed this clinic, the path that I saw for the future of the clinic was definitely guided by what I saw for the 9/11 and the Twin Tower terrorist attacks. You know, where Pacific Palisades is situated, there was a huge wildfire in the mountain behind the homes. But this was also an urban fire. It burned down an entire city. And we've never had anything of this magnitude before. Now, the World Trade Center, of course, was two very large buildings. But the square footage of them was smaller than the city. But I did use my experience back then where the biggest takeaway that I had is the long term, is the two months, three months, four months, five years, 10 years down the line. How we still are having patients even now from the World Trade Center. So, I knew that this clinic is gonna help immediately in the short term answer a lot of the questions, and then also help with immediate short-term health issues. But mid-range and long-term is going to be needed for these patients.

NK: What kinds of things are patients coming to you with? What are they dealing with right now?

AE: Immediately post-fire, the biggest issues were asthma exacerbations, emphysema exacerbations. And then post fire, uh, the problem is the toxins in the air. There's many toxins that are both in the air and then in the ash. And every time the ash and the dust gets kicked up in the air, it's going to pose new problems for these patients. A lot of these patients now come in with a cough that they cannot get rid of. I've had multiple patients come in with pneumonia, infections in their lungs, after being exposed to this dust.

NK: What about first responders?

AE: First responders, in fact, we've already worked out a deal with the Los Angeles County Fire Department where all of them are coming to our clinic. They're having issues of the same thing, cough, pneumonia, a lot of these firemen are there, stationed there, to help long term. And I'm noticing that it's taking longer for their pulmonary function to return back to baseline.

NK: Do you think, though, that the lessons learned from 9/11, for first responders in particular, I mean, the fact that you've made this deal with the county is one sign of that, that it's different.

AE: Oh, absolutely, yes. One of the things that we learned from the September 11th attack was that we have to slow down on how quickly we return to that area. And if we do return, the proper protection is definitely needed.

NK: I wanna ask about you personally as well. I know you're juggling the personal with the professional. You did lose your home. Have you had a chance to grieve?

AE: I'm not sure if I've had the time to grieve or not yet. But hopefully, you know, I went through the process as well at some point. And right now, it's just juggling trying to rebuild my home with working every day.

NK: And you're living in a temporary home in the meantime?

AE: Yeah, which was another issue because there are so many people that were residents that were displaced that it was very hard to find temporary housing for everyone in areas nearby.

NK: Doctor, I appreciate this. Thank you. Please take care.

AE: Thank you so much. And thank you for having me on.

CH: Dr. Ashraf Elsayegh is a pulmonary doctor who lost his home in the Palisades fire. We reached him in Los Angeles, California. Meanwhile, in Manitoba, rain smothered some of the flames of the dozens of wildfires that are still burning in the province. But it hasn't done much to help the deadly fires in the Lac du Bonnet area. And some people who fled their homes are not happy about how evacuation orders were communicated at the height of the fire. Here is Glennda Gould speaking to the CBC this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

GLENNDA GOULD: We had been fighting all day. We were watering our lawn, trying to keep the ground wet because it's tinder dry. Uh, we could see flames probably a quarter mile from us, and smoke as the fire was going northwest. Then, about 8 at night, the wind switched to the north, and the smoke just came down like a fog, just dropped. And so, at about 10, we decided that it was too smoky to stay and we left.

MARCY MARKUSA: What have the last few days been like for you? How are you feeling, you know? You managed to get out, but --

GG: I'm feeling very anxious. Feeling very displaced. I've had to move twice. And my husband has stayed behind in the town of Lac du Bonnet. And I've come to Winnipeg last night.

MM: Tell me what kind of notification, you know, you were hoping for that you would get, or you were expecting?

GG: I was expecting, actually, someone to come to the door and say it was time to leave, or the phone to go off through the emergency notification service that we've subscribed to. That's what I was expecting. It didn't happen. Nobody came to the door later and said you need to evacuate. It's time to go.

MM: The arm does say they're putting evacuation notices on their website and Facebook page. How does that sit with you?

GG: Not everybody has Facebook. We were busy outside trying to keep the place wet, and I didn't have time to look on my Facebook. I don't have to look at my emails on my phone. The power went out at 4. I would like to see that they improve that service, so that everybody gets a notification as they need to.

MM: Do you let your mind go to what could have happened should you and your husband not made your own decision to leave at 10 after, you know, you said your power went out at 4, the smoke, you're watering the lawn. Do you let your mind go there?

GG: I can't. I can't right now. It's too upsetting. I'm so grateful for everything that everybody has done. We've got fabulous neighbours. And even though they were supposed to evacuate, a couple of them stayed and they kept an eye on our place. And we were just really, really lucky, I think. Really lucky that our place is still standing when so many have lost their homes, their livelihoods, and that couple have lost their life.

CH: Manitoba wildfire evacuee Glennda Gould speaking to Marcy Markusa on Information Radio in Winnipeg this morning.

[plucked instrumental]

Quebec Michelin Star

CH: Yesterday, Michelin unveiled its long-awaited first guide to Quebec, awarding stars to nine standout restaurants across the province. One of which is Sabayon in Montreal -- a tiny 14-seat restaurant with a hefty six-course tasting menu; proof that big things can come in small packages. Here’s what chef Patrice Demers said about receiving the honour.

SOUNDCLIP

PATRICE DEMERS: I did my cooking school in Laval in '99. So yeah, I've been cooking for more than 25 years. In school, I did both, like, pastry and cooking, but because I kind of liked pastry, I was given the job of doing dessert in most of the restaurants I worked at for many, many years. And then, I opened a pastry shop, which we closed three years ago. And we decided to open that really small restaurant. So, that's what make it so special because Sabayon is a 14-seat restaurant, and it's only, like, It's only me and my wife. Like, I'm cooking alone in the kitchen during service. I'm doing the dishes. And my wife is serving all the guests. So, we never thought, like, it will be possible for us to eventually get a Michelin star. Like, it wasn't a goal at all. Like, it's, we're really happy about it, [chuckle] but it was never a goal. Our goal is just to make, like, customers happy every night. And to surprise them with, like, nice dishes with, like, using, like, Quebec product. And 25 years ago when I began cooking, I never thought it will be even possible for me to have a Michelin star because at the time, like, Michelin wasn't even in Canada, so. And now, to get one, and for the most part of my career, also I was doing mostly dessert. So now, to get the Michelin star as a chef, yeah, it's something really special for me.

CH: That is Patrice Demers, chef of the newly Michelin-starred restaurant, Sabayon, speaking to Alison Brunette on Breakaway in Quebec.

[lofi]

Charles Strouse Obit

Guest: Jenn Thompson

[Tomorrow as sung by Andrea McArdle/showtune]

CH: Andrea McArdle singing Tomorrow -- as the title character in the original 1977 Broadway production of Annie. And the tune of that classic song -- and so many others -- was composed by Charles Strouse. Over his long career in theatre, Mr. Strouse wrote the music for more than a dozen Broadway shows. He's behind some of the most enduring earworms in musical history. Songs like Put on a Happy Face from Bye Bye Birdie, his first Broadway success. And the Tony Award-winning music from Applause. But he's probably best-known for Annie -- which ran on Broadway for nearly six years, and was later adapted into a movie. Charles Strouse died yesterday. He was 96. In 2005, he talked about Annie in an interview with the Television Academy. He said he originally thought people were cheering for the director, Martin Charnin, during Tomorrow -- because the music was used as a transition during a set change.

SOUNDCLIP

CHARLES STROUSE: She left the stage after singing Tomorrow. And the scene changed. The set, I don't know what it did because she walked behind the thing. And when the set was gone, she was not there, and we were somewhere else. And it got a terrific hand. And for a month or so, I thought they were applauding the set change. I thought how clever Martin is. And it never occurred to me until, you know, people started singing the song and liking it so much that it was the song they liked. It's a built-in modesty, I suppose, but, I mean, it's quite real. I thought, Martin, how clever! It happens very often in the theatre that little song that you put in to affect a scene change, or to express a passing moment is not a big ballad and becomes the success. That's a good example of it.

CH: Composer Charles Strouse speaking in 2005. He died yesterday, at the age of 96. Jenn Thompson was a part of that original Broadway cast of Annie, playing Pepper. She now directs a touring version of the show. We reached her in Los Angeles.

NK: Jenn, success is a bit of an understatement there, but does that sound like the Charles Strouse you knew for so long?

JENN THOMPSON: Absolutely, and it's funny because that's an indelible moment. I know that moment in that original staging of the show. And I can, you know, listening to it, I can see it in my mind's eye. So, I know exactly what he's talking about, yes.

NK: [chuckling] It's such an integral part of your life. You were 10 when you got the part of Pepper in the original Annie on Broadway. What do you remember about that experience?

JT: Um, you know, I've just been so blessed with this show. And it has, you know, remained so relevant to my life. I feel like I remember, I mean, I feel like I remember everything. And, of course, that's not true. [NK chuckles] But that's what it feels like. It was such a heightened, humongous part of my life and time in my life. For all of us, for all us kids especially, in that show. You know, when you're a young actor, you have that experience kind of on steroids. You know, you're like a sponge, everything, it just lands differently. And to be in that show at that time, I was in the show for almost two years. Um, it was, you know, I mean it's just left an indelible mark on me. So, I have, like, a gizillion memories. [NK chuckles] And, of course, coming back to it all these years later as a director, I got to sort of relive a lot of that.

NK: And the memories with Charles, I mean, what do you remember about that time? Because composers are involved, obviously, but they're not necessarily at every rehearsal.

JT: They're not. And I mean, I remember him through the audition process, which was quite lengthy for me. I believe I auditioned like 11 times. You know, it was something akin to American Idol. You know, you, like, line up, people would come from all over the country, kids would come from all over the country, and we would line up at the theatre for blocks and blocks and blocks. I mean, it was hundreds and hundreds of kids. Uh, so the process was long for me. And so, he was at not all of those auditions, but many of those auditions. And that's where I first met him. You know, I really got to know him because he, through my, you know, knowing him at Annie, he asked me to perform with him in his concert show called By Strouse, which was him at the piano with, you know, touring with a guest, you know, coming into a symphony. You know, the Boston Pops or the, you know, Philadelphia Symphony all over the country. And it would be him at the piano and two other performers. And it was myself and a grown-up woman. And that was where I really got to know him because we rehearsed in his home, and with his wife who choreographed it. And I spent a tremendous amount of time with him working on it. And then, you know, touring with it. So, and that was through Annie, those years, but even after Annie, I would continue to do that with him over the years. So, that was really where I got to know him.

NK: How would you describe the kind of person he was? Not just, uh, you know, as an artist or as a composer, but one-on-one. Because a lot of child actors, you know, they don't necessarily have fond memories of the people behind the scenes, whether it's film or stage, right? Broadway can be a harsh place, but --

JT: Yes, yes, especially back then. You know, I hope that's changed a little bit now. I'm trying to enact some of that. He was a mensch. You know, he was a warm, loving, you know, dad himself. And he was, you know, lovely, and enthusiastic, and generous. And I remember doing the show with him and I was doing a lot of the kids stuff in that show, so I was carrying a lot in the Annie material, of course, but also like Birdie and a lot of, you know, it was sort of a lot of his hits, of course. And we were working one day and he disappeared. And he had, like, a big closet of, I guess, like, material, you know, like music and stuff like that. And he came out with the sheet music. And he said, you know, I've always wanted to do this song. But you're the first kid I know that I think could act it.

NK: Oh my goodness.

JT: And I was so flattered. And it was this, like, totally obscure, I want to say it was about animals in the zoo. But I can't really remember how it went, but I remember just, you know, being smart enough at 11 to be incredibly flattered that he said that.

NK: At any age.

JT: He was generous. Yes, he was generous.

NK: I was reading that he, you know, thought being active and continuing to do what he loves so much is what kept him going, you know, for so long. And he came to see your touring version of Annie, sat in the auditions, and what did he say to you as he was watching with you?

JT: Well, I was thinking about this yesterday, of course. He came in July to our auditions, and we were, you know, in a sort of a final callback scenario with a lot of the girls. And we were sitting behind the table, and a young performer, I actually had this on video, I'm so glad somebody filmed it, was singing Tomorrow, and he got emotional. And he was wiping away some tears. And, of course, you know, I was thinking this too, because all those years, decades ago, I was one of those kids, and he was behind the table. And I was, you know, auditioning for him with the same material. And, um, he just took this little moment and put his hand on my shoulder and said, that was you, kid. And I just, I thought, oh my God, I'm just gonna die right here. My heart's gonna explode. And I'm going to start crying, and these poor kids aren't going to know why, you know, the seeming, you know, boss of the room is a puddle on the floor. But, you know, and that's an example of his heart and his generosity. And, you know, he understood kids. He understood, he respected us, you know? And it's something that I've tried to really carry forward in my handling of this really beautiful show.

NK: Thank you so much, Jenn, for this conversation. I appreciate it.

JT: My great pleasure. He will be missed. He was an original.

NK: Take care.

CH: Jenn Thompson played Pepper in the original Broadway production of Annie. We reached her in LA.

[western]

Part 3: Hegseth Plagiarism, Cape Breton Shipwrecks

LR: Moose V.S. Elk

CH: Well, we did it: we accidentally discovered the intersection between As It Happens listeners and moose appreciators. On last night's show, we told you how conservationists are attempting to bring elk back from extinction in the U.K. And by "elk", they mean what we call "moose". One more time: North Americans say moose, Brits say elk. I'll let our guest, Janice Bradley of the Nottinghamshire Wildlife Trust, recap.

SOUNDCLIP

JANICE BRADLEY: I know, it's a really strange thing isn't it? [NK chuckles] Because I know, to you, an elk is a different animal. It's more like what we would call a red deer. I'm not sure. At some point in the past, that language, obviously, sort of diversified. But yes, I mean, sometimes, people do call them moose here as well, call them European moose. But the correct name here is European elk, yeah. But they are absolutely like your moose.

CH: Yet, despite that clarification, we heard from Jan Gomersall in P.E.I. Jan writes "Elk and moose are NOT the same -- they are distinct species within the 'Cervidae' family. Elk are known as 'Old World' deer (the 'Old World', presumably being Europe etc.). Moose belong to the Capreolinae sub-family, that are known as 'New World', (presumably North American) deer. Moose are generally much larger, the bulls growing six to seven feet tall and weighing a thousand lbs. Elk bulls only grow to between four to five feet tall and weigh only about 600 lbs!" And Jan signs off with, "Elkonsider these things!" and two wonderful photos of a moose and an elk. Thanks for writing Jan, and nice pun. Jan is right, of course. In North America, moose and elk are entirely different things. But not in the U.K. Now, as for why we have this split etymology -- which neither our guest or Jan could discern -- we turn to Google. According to the fine people at Oxford Linguistics, the term "elk" came first, derived from Old English. People in the U.K. used "elk," but since none of the animals were around due to being extinct, the meaning got vague. Whereas in North America, with plenty of cervidae and capreolinae around, English speakers needed two terms to separate the two distinct animals. The word "moose" is borrowed from the Algonquian languages. But one of you "Happenstans" already knew that!

SOUNDCLIP

[ah…the towering, majestic Talkback beep]

RACHEL: Hello, As It Happens, this is Rachel calling from Peterborough, Ontario. And I was just listening to your story about the reintroduction of elk or moose into the U.K. And one of the questions that came up was where the name moose came from? And I am not an expert, and I'm not a historian, but the word for moose here in Ngojuwanong in Treaty 20, Williams Treaty Territory. It's M-O-O-Z, M-O-O Z in Anishinaabemowin. So, that might be why. Thanks, bye.

CH: Thanks for the call, Rachel. And you might as well be an expert: as Anishinaabemowin belongs to the Algonquian language family, that is indeed where we North Americans get the word "moose." Again, according to Oxford Linguistics. And we heard from another Happenite -- Jody Boyd in Gander, Newfoundland and Labrador -- who writes "Nottingham is approximately 121,733 average moose strides from Reading." Thanks Jody. For additional reference, Nottingham is approximately 136,155 average elk strides from Reading. Now, if you have other moose/elk input, or you want to comment on anything elks you hear on the show, call Talkback at 416-205-5687. Or email us at aih@cbc.ca.

[R&B]

Vatican Ceremonial Items

CH: On Sunday, Pope Leo the Fourteenth will preside over his inaugural mass. And Indigenous leaders are hoping that before long, the new head of the Catholic Church will heed a request that they've been making for years. When the Catholic Church ran residential schools in Canada, it confiscated ceremonial regalia, sacred pipes, medicine bundles, and other artifacts. This week, Chief Bobby Cameron of the Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations renewed calls for their return.

SOUNDCLIP

BOBBY CAMERON: Many of the artifacts that they unlawfully or illegally kept, whether they're in the Vatican or somewhere else, those are First Nation property, First Nation artifacts. Many of them are ceremonial. Many of them are keepsakes. But in any case, every single one of those artifacts are sacred items. They're crucial for the healing journey for many residential school survivors. And just as important, it's their property. It's the residential school survivors' property, no one else. And that's what we're calling for the new Pope Leo to work with First Nations to make that happen. We've stated it for many, many years to have these First Nation artifacts given back to the rightful owners. And we hope it happens, we really do.

JEREMY WARREN: Like you mentioned, this has been a request made in recent years with the last pope. But are you feeling more optimistic this time around?

BC: Yeah, we always remain optimistic for sure, Jeremy. And, you know, with the pope apology and the repudiation of the doctrine of discovery, when the former pope, the late pope, made those comments, we were hoping that action would transpire afterwards. But now, you know, everyone has understood the trauma and the harmful effects of residential schools and what it's done to our people. Many of our First Nations are still feeling the intergenerational trauma. So, we're optimistic that he does it. We understand that with the new pope, he's gonna be very pressed for other areas. But this is, for us, this is very important. And it should be for them. They apologized. They came to Alberta and met with residential school survivors. This is just another action item for them to really honour their word. Yeah, it means a lot because it gives our people hope. It gives them a sense of belonging, a sense of what was lost before. And now, it's back into the homes and hands of First Nation families, residential school families, their descendants. You wouldn't believe the impact it has.

CH: That was Bobby Cameron, the chief of the Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations, talking to Jeremy Warren from CBC Saskatchewan.

[jaunty lullaby]

Hegseth Plagiarism

Guest: Sena Chang

CH: This is how a Washington Post reporter described the moment George W. Bush learned of the attacks on September 11th, 2001. Quote, "Bush looked distracted and somber but continued to listen to the second-graders read and soon was smiling again. He joked that they read so well, they must be sixth-graders." Unquote. Here's how Pete Hegseth described the same moment, in his senior thesis. Quote: "Bush looked distracted and somber but continued to listen to the second-graders, joking that they ‘read like sixth-graders." Unquote. Now, that would be fine if he'd put a footnote or an endnote in there. But he didn't cite the Post article in his thesis at all. And that's just one of eight examples of alleged plagiarism in the U.S. secretary of defense's 2003 research paper -- according to a reporter at the Daily Princetonian, the student newspaper at Mr. Hegseth's alma mater. We reached Daily Princetonian reporter Sena Chang in Princeton, New Jersey.

NK: Sena, why did you want to take this story on? Why did you wanna dig into Pete Hegseth's student thesis?

SENA CHANG: First of all, Pete Hegseth is arguably one of Princeton's highest-profile alumni in government right now. I think that level of influence naturally invites scrutiny. And secondly, Princeton also holds its students to quite strict standards of academic integrity, as do many universities. But the honour code here really isn't just a formality, it's more a deeply internalized part of the academic culture. Thirdly, we are seeing a rise in, you know, plagiarism accusations from Harvard President Claudine Gay to Prime Minister Mark Carney. There's a growing trend experts have pointed to of weaponizing past academic work to score political points. And so, that's why it's It felt important to approach this carefully and objectively. And to critically sort of start a conversation about what constitutes a meaningful infraction, how we evaluate in intent contexts and consequence in these cases.

NK: And for listeners who may not remember, those allegations were initially reported by the National Post. They were about Carney's Oxford thesis from 1975. A Liberal spokesperson at the time said they were a, quote, irresponsible mischaracterization of his work. Back to your coverage, though. You brought in three plagiarism experts. They did not know whose work they were looking at as they dissected it. What ultimately did they find?

SC: So yeah, the Daily Princetonian, as you said, consulted three plagiarism experts. And they found eight instances of uncredited material, sham paraphrasing, and verbatim copying, among other academic violations. And Interestingly, the experts unanimously agreed that the passages violated Princeton's academic honesty regulations, but they differed on whether the violations were serious or sort of too minor to matter. So, for example, one of the experts said that all of the examples are violations of academic integrity standards, but may not necessarily merit institutional action. While another expert, you know, considered majority of the cases to be serious examples of plagiarism. And, yeah, I think this goes to show that plagiarism really is an umbrella term that covers everything from the tiniest of phrases to verbatim copying.

NK: There is in your coverage, and these experts refer to, you know, grey areas, this is more grey than a black and white case of plagiarism. Ultimately, what are the potential consequences? Could he face academic censure from Princeton, or a reprimand?

SC: Yeah, so interestingly, the university has little to no precedent on how they handle cases of academic integrity violations following a student's graduation. But we are certain that if this were discovered while he was a student here, this would have led to a one-year suspension and a permanent mark on his transcript. And faculty members that we interviewed who were present during his time at Princeton also emphasized the strictness of the university's enforcement of regulations. With juniors having to take a seminar on, like, research methods prior to writing their thesis. But what the experts generally said was that because it sits in that uncomfortable middle ground, this type of plagiarism may not be blatant enough to guarantee consequences.

NK: The Defense Department, you did request a comment. They did not respond to your requests before you published. The chief Pentagon spokesperson did release a statement to another news outlet after your piece was published. He denies there was any plagiarism. And his statement reads in part, quote, this is a fake story designed to distract from the DOD's historic accomplishments under President Trump. And Secretary Hegseth's leadership. Unquote. What do you say to that as the reporter behind this story?

SC: Yeah, I think much of the comment does contain usual strategies of deflection and diversion that the Trump administration has used to discredit stories that don't look favourably upon the administration. But the idea, I think, that this is a, quote/unquote, fake story designed to discredit Hegseth's achievement is a fair concern. And I think that's part of what makes the story complex. But I think that when someone's early academic work is still archived and cited as part of their intellectual legacy here at Princeton, it's totally fair to ask how that work holds up? And I think that these questions are especially pertinent as Hegseth, as the secretary of defense manages the world's biggest and richest military.

NK: People will hear about these, will look at those sentences and what the experts say and look at your reporting, and I think they'll receive it in different ways, right? There are people who will say, this says something about a person's character and the kind of person they might be today. I think there's other people who read it and say, what it just stuck in someone's brain, whoever whoever was writing it, and then it ended up in their paper? And they'll say it was years ago. Where do you land on those questions and how seriously that should be taken, whether they're in school, or now in a position of power? Now that you've done this reporting, where does it sit with you?

SC: I try to approach the story not necessarily, you know, with a political agenda, but more to, like, ask how we handle borderline academic cases, you know, when they involve highly influential figures. And I think that should definitely be asked about, you know, whether or not these showcase a pattern of irresponsibility. But I think that as a journalist, I shouldn't have an opinion on how this may reflect on his character.

NK: That's the correct answer as a journalist. It wasn't a test. But you passed it. [SC laughs] You passed it! Sena, I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

SC: Thank you so much.

CH: Sena Chang is a student reporter with the Daily Princetonian. We reached her in Princeton, New Jersey.

[post rock]

Innu Coroner Report

CH: In January 2021, Napa Raphaël André knocked on the doors of a Montreal homeless shelter. He was turned away, partly because of COVID-19 lockdown curfews. And then Mr. André, who was originally from the Innu Nation of Matimekush-Lac John, then died from hypothermia -- mere steps from the shelter. Now, Quebec Coroner Stéphanie Gamache has concluded that his death was preventable. In a new report, Ms. Gamache shared 23 recommendations to prevent future deaths -- directed mostly at the Quebec government. Na'kuset is the executive director of the Native Women's Shelter of Montreal and the founder of Resilience Montreal. She talked to the CBC about the support organizations like hers need.

SOUNDCLIP

NA'KUSET: Those services are busting at the seams! The ones that are doing the work have lineups. A lot of times I hear if we need monies for homelessness the city says, well, that's not my job. That is actually the province. And the province says, no, no, no that's the feds. And the fed's point to the city. So, you're watching, like, a hot potato. And in the meantime, while people are trying to figure out who's actually going to do it, people die.

ALISON BRUNETTE: In the weeks and the months following Raphaël André's death, services were set up in the city by organizations like yours, which you talked a little bit about at the top, to try and make those culturally safe spaces available to the Indigenous population in Montreal. What is the lasting legacy now of those efforts beyond having to continue continuously applying for that money?

NA'KUSET: People remember who he is. And he was someone that was loved in the community. It's more difficult when you look at the legacy of Indigenous people. And how, you know, through sort of falling through the cracks, you know, it's like we don't have a fighting chance. So, I would like to see that these recommendations get applied. Because the numbers of people that are on the streets now, I've never seen it this bad. Where is the services? And again, you know, continuing to fund these organizations because the reason why we called it the Raphaël André Memorial Tent is because we wanted to have, like, a legacy. And when Alexandra took it over and called it Mitchwap, that's still the legacy. So, let's continue doing the work. But again, it's Indigenous led. So let the government support our organization so we can do the work. Because at the end of the day, they're going to come to us because it's familiar, we have a familiar, you know, historical background that they can, you know, relate to.

CH: That was Na'kuset, the executive director of the Native Women's Shelter of Montreal, speaking to Alison Brunette on Breakaway.

[bright, slow piano]

Cape Breton Shipwrecks

Guest: Jeff MacKinnon

CH: A long-lost treasure that may have been amassed by pirates. But maybe not. But maybe! Emeralds. Coins. And not one, nor even two or three, but four shipwrecks found off the coast of Louisbourg, Nova Scotia. This find, revealed last week on the show The Death Coast, could be one of the biggest underwater discoveries ever made. Third-generation treasure hunter Jeff MacKinnon led the crew who found the shipwrecks. We reached him in Sydney, Nova Scotia.

NK: Jeff, what kind of know-how and equipment does it take to find one shipwreck, let alone four.

JEFF MACKINNON: [chuckling] That's a good question. I don't know, I think it's mostly luck and divine intervention. Maybe it's not just equipment. To be honest, it takes 100 years of of knowledge and information gathering. And use, you know, applied. Sciences like bathymetric scanning, and towed magnetometers, a side-scan sonars. And voila! [both chuckle] You have shipwrecks.

NK: Snap of the fingers, you have four shipwrecks. So easy!

JM: Snap of the fingers! Well, the interesting thing is that these four shipwreck sites are unique in their location. And they are unique by virtue of the items that we're finding on them.

NK: So much has to line up, Jeff, as you know, there's the luck and the knowledge, all of that, for this to happen. So, given all of that, what was that moment of discovery like, when you realized that this was successful, to say the least?

JM: Oh my god, I'm a treasure hunter, and we found treasure. I mean, literally three of these shipwreck sites have produced some form of coinage or precious stones. Like one of them, for example, we're calling it the "Emerald Wreck", a fist-sized piece of concretion that was erratic, it was broken off of the main concretion bed, we brought it up and it had a tonne of these emeralds in it. Emeralds and a couple of little coins. I mean, and just by gaging the very small amount that we brought up, it leads us to believe that there is going to be a whole lot more there.

NK: [chuckle] That's treasure, all right!

JM: Yeah, and I know in the immediate areas here, like, back in my father's time, when my father was doing this, he found beautiful jewelry not too far away from the sites. Not part of these sites, but the idea that we leave stuff like that down there, to me, it just can't be. It can't happen.

NK: And just to go back for a second, Jeff, I think I can visualize what you're talking about, but what exactly is a concretion?

JM: Concretion is an amalgamation of, it's an iron oxidization. So, you have iron items and iron degrades under salt water very quickly. Even quicker now with the warming waters and the ocean salinity and ocean acidification.

NK: How big is the area we're talking about?

JM: Okay, well, for the four of them, it's different in each case, but the main one that everybody's interested in here, which is the Emerald Wreck, you're talking about a, oh goodness gracious, it's got to be the size of a hockey rink. That's how big it is. It's quite large.

NK: And who do you think these ships belong to, Jeff?

JM: This belongs to the people of Nova Scotia.

NK: [chuckling] But back then?

JM: Oh, who do I think it belonged to back then? Well, there's a few theories going around. We didn't find any markings on any of the components that we brought up. No French or English markings. So, one or two of our researchers are hinting at that, you know, maybe it could be possible that it could one of the four pirates that was running around up here. You had Peter Easton. You had Bartholomew Roberts. You had Edward Low, who's my favourite because that's the guy they used to tell stories about to their kids to get them to go to bed. [both chuckle] If you don't go to bed, Edward Low's gonna' come and cut your lips off because that's exactly what he did to the people he would capture.

NK: And how could you not fall soundly asleep after a story like that?

JM: [laughing] That's right. Welcome to Cape Breton. [NK laughs] That was our childhood, right, in these small, little port communities.

NK: Well, you mentioned working with the government there. We did reach out to the province, and they responded to our request, a representative with the Department of Communities, Culture, Tourism, and Heritage did confirm that archeological research permits were issued to a team working off the Cape Brighton coast. They're not publicly, at this point, confirming you're find. They're looking at things, obviously. So, they know where it is. Does anyone else know now?

JM: No. [laughing] nobody else knows. The camera crew, obviously. But I guess I should have blindfolded them when we were filming the series. But other than that, no, I'm not concerned about possible looting just yet. My main concern is, obviously, the effects of the global warming, and the fact that we need to do something here quickly to make sure that we recover as much as we possibly can. Like I said, it belongs to the people of Nova Scotia. And more importantly, it belongs to people of Cape Breton. And that's an inherent right that went along with Nova Scotia Joint Confederation. Joseph Howe was very smart to keep our rights to our resources, both marine and on land.

NK: Well, listen, when people hear about all this emerald talk, they might all want a piece, as Nova Scotians, a piece of that emerald. But in all seriousness, what will happen to these artifacts? What are the next steps?

JM: Oh my goodness, like I said, I want to see it displayed in Cape Breton. I want to see a maritime cultural centre here. I want to see, again, a centre for marine research here in Cape Breton. And I really, we have to start relying on tourism-based businesses. And this is the perfect business for Nova Scotia. It is readily available. It's at risk of being lost forever. And when it's recovered, it promotes the entire province. So, you can't ask for more than that.

NK: Jeff, a real pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

JM: Thank you so very much.

CH: We reached treasure hunter Jeff MacKinnon in Sydney, Nova Scotia.

[psychedelic rock]

Celine Dion Honours Ginette Reno

CH: Before Celine Dion, there was Ginette Reno. mThe Quebec singer and actor is considered the queen of the chanson québécoise. She's recorded an astounding 42 albums, and won multiple Juno awards. And last night, she was inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame -- and received a special message from Ms. Dion.

SOUNDCLIP

CELINE DION: You're a living legend. Who's enduring passion and timeless artistry have inspired generations. You are, indeed, one of the greatest inspirations of my life. I actually met Rene because my parents wanted me to meet with the manager of the great Ginette Reno. In fact, he always told me you are the best singer. In the world.

CH: Celine Dion, in a video honouring Ginette Reno at last night's Canadian Music Hall of Fame induction ceremony. You’ll be able to watch the entire ceremony, hosted by Paul Brandt, later this fall on CBC Gem and CBC Music's YouTube page.

The AIH Transcript For May 16

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