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The AIH transcript for May 19, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

DAVE SEGLINS: Hello, I'm Dave Seglins, sitting in for Nil Köksal.

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening, I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

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TS: Tonight:

DS: Net worth. The U.K. announces a new trade deal with the EU -- but some in the fishing industry say they are gutted by the concessions it took to reel in the deal.

TS: All carrot, no stick. Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin spoke on the phone today at length, and our guest says what he saw wasn't so much progress toward a ceasefire, but the U.S. president failing to stand up to Russia.

DS: The very long goodbye. Eighty years after his father's plane was shot down over Dorset, the son of a Canadian Flying Officer killed in the Second World War tells us how he pieced together the details of that day -- and how he's commemorating them now.

TS: Pictures that get at a bigger picture. A Vancouver art student tells us why she wanted to take portraits of others who, like her, spent time in foster care.

DS: A case of good copy/bad copy. An English historian explains how he liberated an original version of the Magna Carta from obscurity, after discovering it deep in the Harvard Law School archives -- because it was believed to be a copy.

TS: And...Taking the plunge. Fifty years after Jaws made the waters around Martha's Vineyard seem very scary, a long-distance swimmer is braving them, to show that sharks deserve our friendship, not fear.

TS: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that just hopes things don't get too chum-my

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Part 1: EU/U.K. Deal, B.C. Care Photography, Extreme Swimmer Sharks

EU/U.K. Deal

Guest: Michael Cohen

SOUNDCLIP

KEIR STARMER: This is the first U.K.-EU summit. It marks a new era in our relationship. And this deal is a win-win.

TS: British Prime Minister Keir Starmer speaking today, announcing an economic reset with the European Union - in what looks to be the biggest shift on that front since the U.K. withdrew from the alliance five years ago. Officials say the deal will slash red tape, open up markets, and ease defence partnerships. But it comes at the cost of at least one major concession - the 12-year extension of an agreement allowing EU fishing vessels access to U.K. waters. Michael Cohen is the chief executive of England's National Federation of Fishermen's Organizations. We reached him in Yorkshire.

DS: Mr. Cohen, Prime Minister Starmer called this a win-win deal for the U.K. and the EU today. Is it a win for the fishermen you represent?

MICHAEL COHEN: Very much not. No, this is definitely a significant loss for the fishing industry in the U.K. We've given away something very important in this deal and we haven't obtained anything valuable in exchange for it, so we're very disappointed in the deal that's been done.

DS: Now, the details are very new, some of them yet to emerge. What's your feeling in terms of impact? Will this put some in your industry out of work?

MC: That's not the sort of impact we are seeing, at least not immediately. What we have here is an agreement over who can access British waters to catch fish. When Britain was part of the EU, our waters were part of European waters and everybody fished them alike. When we left Europe, a deal was done that said that for a period of five years, that access arrangement would continue. And after that, access to British waters would have to be negotiated by anybody else who wanted it. What this deal does is rather than carrying on with that promised annually negotiated access period, it gives European boats access for 12 years, in return for which we haven't achieved anything as an industry, as a sector within the U.K. So, we're hugely disappointed.

DS: I want to listen, and let you listen, a little more to what the Prime Minister had to say today, specifically about the deal and the fishing industry.

SOUNDCLIP

KEIR STARMER: It is incredibly important for fish. Because over 70 per cent of our seafood goes into the European market. So for the first time, our fishing communities are able to sell more easily into the European markets. As I say, 70 per cent goes into that market. The length of time for the agreement provides the stability because what would have happened next year is we would have come off the current arrangements. But then into year-on-year negotiations where nobody knows year- on-year where they stand, this gives stability in relation to that. So, this is good for fishing.

DS: The prime minister seems to be making two points here. Let's take them one by one. What do you make of the first point, that this will make it easier for your fishermen to get products into the European market?

MC: I can see what he's trying to do here, but this is sophistry. This isn't real. We sell our fish into the European market already. So, there's nothing new here. What this does is remove some of the administrative barriers to easy exports That's good news if you're a haulage firm, it's good news if your a big retailer, one of the big supermarkets that operates in both the EU and the U.K. It's good news if you are an exporter. It doesn't make any difference if you were a fisherman. To think that the extra couple of hundred pounds saved on a lorry load of fish going across the channel, do you think any of that saving is going to trickle down to the fisherman who actually caught those fish? This is fantasy land. That's just not how trade between nations works. The producers are not going to benefit from this. If an exporter saves a few pounds in this deal, they're not going to pass it all the way back down the supply chain to the person that their buyer bought the fish from. If anything, we'll probably see importers in the EU wanting lower prices, since the export costs won't be as high, and we'll see consumers in the EU expecting lower prices because their product has been bought cheaper. This isn't going to help fishermen.

DS: Let's speak about Mr. Stammer's second point, and that is about stability and long-term. They've granted Europeans access to U.K. fishing waters up to a six mile limit for 12 years. That is a major concession from what the U.K. was hoping for. What do you think of the idea that this will bring stability to the industry, and that it's not being renegotiated year in, year out?

MC: It certainly brings stability. It brings stability to the French fishing industry, to the Belgian fishing industry. It gives us absolutely nothing. We didn't want a stable deal where they know absolutely for certain that they'll have free access year on year. We hoped we'd do what Norway does and use the promise of access to our very rich fishing grounds to negotiate a benefit annually. I mean, yes, it's stability if you absolutely know for certain you've lost every year in advance. But, you know, as the old kind of medical joke goes, a patient in a stable condition can be dead. It doesn't mean we're benefiting from that. So yes, we will stably lose every year for 12 years in a row.

DS: We're living in a time where international trade is realigning. There are some potentially grim prospects for countries that get left behind. What would you say to those who might argue the prime minister had to make some concessions to reach a deal with the EU and that this was the right place to make them?

MC: We already have a deal on trade with the EU. The concrete deal that seems to have been reached is on this agreement that makes it slightly cheaper for us to sell our food and agricultural produce to Europe and for them to sell theirs to us. That's pretty small beer, quite frankly, in global trade terms. Um, this isn't a free trade deal with the EU like we used to have when we were part of the EU. It isn't anything like that or anything nearly that ambitious, so I just don't see that this gains sufficient benefit from the UK. It brings us closer to Europe. And I know that's something Mr. Starmer is very clear keen to do. I'm not sure it is demonstrating sufficient benefit to use that as a justification for what we've given up.

DS: And for those that you represent, what's your message to them today?

MC: Our message really is that we have to wait and see what comes next from government. We have to hold government to account on the promises it's made to our industry in the past. They've been very keen to say that food security is part of our national security, and that fishing is a key part of that. So, we need some good news as an industry. If they really are committed to that and really do see us as part of an important national mission, they need to start working better with us to deliver the things that let us deliver food.

DS: Mr. Cohen will leave it there. Thank you.

MC: Thank you very much.

TS: Michael Cohen is the chief executive of the U.K.’s National Federation of Fishermen's Organizations. We reached him in Yorkshire.

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B.C. Care Photography

Guest: Stephen DeMaria

TS: Next month, Tarah Dowling will graduate from university. It's a major milestone for any student, but for her, it's an accomplishment 10 years in the making. Having grown up in and out of foster homes, Ms. Dowling had to put herself through school. Thanks to her own savings, and with help from a provincial program that waives tuition for former youth in care, she'll be completing the visual arts program at Vancouver Island University. For her final art project, she decided to photograph fourteen of her fellow students -- all of whom have their own experiences in the foster system. We reached Ms. Dowling in Whistler.

DS: Tarah, the name of your project is We Are The Change You Want To See. Why'd you call it that?

TARAH DOWLING: Well, it was based on that idea that to be the change you want to see in the world, and showcasing these different individuals, I believe that these are the people that are making a change, not only in their lives, but being representation for people that have gone through foster care and just bettering themselves and adding to society.

DS: So what gave you the idea for this project?

TD: Well, because of the Provincial Tuition Waiver Program, I decided for my last year of my art school to make all of my projects surrounding my time in foster care. And when I took a directed study photography class, my teacher had brought up the idea of doing something that was community-based. And so, because I kind of was curious who was in school using this same program as me that had had similar upbringings, I really wanted to reach out and see if I could maybe document them and photograph and share their stories and also just learn about them.

DS: Now, you were able through the university financial aid office to connect with other students in the Tuition Waver Program. What was the response like?

TD: Well, to be honest, I got about 21 people right off the bat that wanted to be a part of the project and I was not expecting that. Because a lot of people, like myself, don't really like to talk about their experience going through care because there's a lot of shame and negative stigma surrounding it. So, I was just completely taken back by the vulnerability and willingness to share their stories. So yeah, it was really moving.

DS: What was it like for you to make these connections?

TD: I think it was a little bit challenging. I think it brought up some of my own traumas going through care, but it was, in the end, just incredibly inspiring to hear what people have gone through and just how much strength and resiliency they've had through their lives to get to where they are today.

DS: And 21 people, why do you think it was important to them to wanna take part?

TD: I think because they know that they're doing something with their lives. And I think that we need to change that narrative surrounding people who have gone through foster care that they don't really make good choices in their life because they've had so much trauma and they have mental health issues. And that's just not the case. There's so many of us that are incredibly smart, incredibly resourceful, and we just have so much to give.

DS: Now, the people that you're featuring in the photography are unnamed, but can you tell us about a couple of them?

TD: Yeah, so Jack actually told me that I could use his name, and he's the one that's returned to school. He was from the '60s Scoop, which I didn't actually know about until he shared his story with me. So, he was taken out of his home and put in foster care in the '60s. And now, he's gone back to school to do an Indigenous studies degree. And so, he's actually learning about his culture right now at, like, 46 years old. So, that was just so inspiring to me and also a little bit sad. Yeah, I was just really touched by his story. Another girl, she was living on the streets, and she had a social worker that was kind of checking in on her that told her about the program and then helped her when she decided she wanted to go to school because she didn't even have an address to put on the application form. So, a lot of these people had to go through so many hurdles to even get themselves into school and then to stay in school with the different mental health issues that they have. So, yeah, it's been really touching.

DS: And what's their reaction been taking part in the photography?

TD: They've been so supportive and so excited. I did a reception when I showcased their photographs, and they brought their family members and we sat around and talked. And my social worker actually came and it was, I don't know, it just felt like a family. Like we had all experienced something really hard in our lives and we really saw each other and understood each other and supported each other.

DS: And how does it feel to know that these people are entrusting you to hear and photograph and share their story?

TD: Well, [chuckling] I think that I still am in a little bit disbelief that I was that person that they chose to do that to. But I guess because I had gone through so many of the things that they had gone, they understood that I’m always going to protect them and to be very sensitive to the nature of the project. And I have respect for them.

DS: And what are you hoping people will take away from it?

TD: I hope that they just take away being more mindful of what other people are going through, especially those that have gone through the foster care system, to know that they really do want to be seen as equals. And that they want these opportunities and they want to make their lives better, yeah, and just to celebrate that.

DS: Now you're graduating next month, congratulations.

TD: Thank you.

DS: If not for the Tuition Waver Program, do you think you would be getting your BA?

TD: To be honest, I don't. I started doing my education about 10 years ago when I was self-funding it, and then COVID happened and I just couldn't keep going anymore. And when I found out that I got the grant, I actually cried because it was something that I really valued in my life and I really wanted to finish. So yeah, it definitely changed the course of my life, and I returned to school because of that grant.

DS: So what would you say to other kids who are in care right now who think that further education might not even be in the cards for them?

TD: I think that they should just try, and I think a lot of people do want to help support them. So, just taking a step to see if they're even available to get that grant and then figure out what they want to do because there's so many opportunities out there. And we can live a life of our dreams. And I just think it's such an amazing opportunity that we've been given.

DS: Tarah, congratulations on your graduation, but also on this project.

TD: Thank you so much.

TS: Tarah Dowling is the artist behind We Are The Change You Want To See. She was in Whistler.

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Extreme Swimmer Sharks

Guest: Lewis Pugh

TS: "You'll never go in the water again." That's the tagline for the 1975 classic, Jaws. The film, of course, was a blockbuster hit -- pulling in more than $100 million in the U.S., and launching the career of director Steven Spielberg. It's also notable for being filmed largely at sea -- off the coast of Martha's Vineyard, the Massachusetts island, just south of Cape Cod; an area that itself is a hotspot for sharks. But as Jaws approaches its fiftieth birthday next month -- Lewis Pugh is not heeding the film's tagline. In fact, he's doing the exact opposite. Mr. Pugh is regarded as the first person to have completed a long-distance swim in each of the planet's oceans. And this month, he's spending close to two weeks swimming around Martha's Vineyard. We reached Lewis Pugh in Chilmark, Massachusetts.

DS: Lewis, we're reaching you right before you dip your toes back into the water for the day. I mean, that is assuming, of course, you still have all your toes?

LEWIS PUGH: Yes, I still have all my toes, [DS chuckles] but it was cold yesterday, it really was cold.

DS: What kind of conditions are you swimming in? Like, how cold is it?

LP: So, the water at this time of year is anything between eight degrees centigrade and 12 degrees centigrade. And just to give that some sort of comparison, when you swim across the English Channel in summer, the water isn't eight, it's about 18 degrees centigrade, so this is cold water.

DS: So, I have to ask you, have you seen any sharks yet?

LP: No, not yet, but during the swim yesterday, I went through a lot of seal. And you know that where there are seals inevitably there are going to be sharks.

DS: We'll get to, in a moment, the reasons you're doing this swim, but first I understand you're actually breaking a bit of a rule even talking about sharks while you're doing a swim, is that right?

LP: Yes. Because, you know, I've been swimming now for nearly 40 years, and in all the world's oceans. And yes, I've encountered sharks before. And so, I always have this unwritten rule: we don't talk about sharks. And the reason for that is very very simple. Because you start talking about sharks, you start thinking about sharks, and very soon, you'll be out the water.

DS: You're not beyond a little fear?

LP: [soft chuckle] I'm a swimmer, I'm on the surface of the water, yes I have been frightened, but I'm much more terrified of a world without sharks. A world without shark is an ocean without life.

DS: So, let's get to the reasons. Why are you doing this?

LP: So, it's the 50th anniversary of Jaws, and they portrayed sharks as cold-blooded villains out to kill humans. And we know that they are none of the sort. And so, on this 50th Anniversary, this is an opportunity now to change the narrative for a new generation.

DS: But yet, you concede you do have your own fear. Like, what's it like being out there in that cold water, knowing that you are around these predators?

LP: It's so important that you get control over your mind. I just try and focus on moving forward, and then relying on my team. So, I've got a boat next to me with people looking out for sharks, and I got a kayak right next to my as well. So, the most important thing for me is to focus, keep looking ahead, and trust my team that if a shark were to come, they will get me out of the water and keep me safe.

DS: What do you remember about the first time you ever saw the movie Jaws?

LP: I was about 16 years old, and I remember being frightened of sharks. You know, we think it was that simple. But the thing I remember most about that movie was the music, that soundtrack. That movie inspired a generation of fear. You know sharks are apex predators. They are absolutely essential for a healthy ocean. They keep the ocean in balance, but they are really under threat. And the main threat is from commercial fishing and the data is very very shocking. On average, 274,000 are killed globally every day. I mean, you multiply that over the year, it's 100 million sharks killed every year. It's a madness. It's an ecocide.

DS: And yet, we've got this imbalance where so many sharks are taken and killed by humans. And the reports of shark attacks on humans is so few. Why do you think this idea persists that the shark is such a threat to humans?

LP: It was such an incredible movie. I mean, it really was. It was a first summer blockbuster, and it has set the tone for the last 50 years. You are far more likely, statistically, to be injured in a car accident or even killed by a coconut falling on your head than being eaten by a shark.

DS: Now, you are known for extreme swimming. You were also on this program back in 2020 when you just swum under the Antarctic ice sheet. Is this really a challenge for you going around Martha's Vineyard?

LP: Oh, absolutely. I mean that swim down in Antarctica down the river was very, very challenging. The water was below zero. What makes this swim around Martha's Vineyard so challenging is three things. Number one, it's long. It's going to take me 12 days. Number two, the water is cold. And then lastly, around here, they have protected great white sharks. And now, the numbers have recovered. And so, this is a global hotspot for great white sharks. You put all those three things together, this swim will challenge me both physically and certainly mentally.

DS: You are doing this to draw attention to the plight of the oceans and our irrational fear of sharks. Is there any thought in your mind that this could go terribly wrong and it could prove the opposite?

LP: I try not to think like that. So, I've got a boat next to me with a very, very experienced crew. I've a kayaker who's extremely experienced. And so, I've surrounded myself by the very, very best people.

DS: And is it true that you are, you're not wearing a wet suit? You're doing this to the open ocean bare skinned?

LP: [chuckling] Yes. Well, yeah, I wear a pair of swimming trunks. I'm not doing this naked. [DS laughs] But yeah, but there's no wetsuit, no dry suit. And that's what makes it so challenging. The water is extremely cold. But I have done all my swims like that. And the reason is simple. I am urging world leaders to really make the tough decisions which we need to take now to protect the environment. And I've always thought that swimming in a wet suit or swimming in a dry suit wouldn't send the right message. We now need to be courageous.

DS: Well, congratulations on this swim. Um, but I do wonder, there've been a few sequels to Jaws. What about you? What's your sequel to this swim going to be?

LP: [soft chuckle]I just want to get through today. This is a long swim. It is 12 days long. I just try and focus on today. I'm not thinking about any sequels.

DS: All right. Well, all the best. We'll follow you with great interest, and stay warm if you can.

LP: Thank you so, so much.

TS: Lewis Pugh is an extreme swimmer. This month, he's swimming 100 kilometres, around the coast of Martha's Vineyard, to advocate for more protections for sharks. We reached Mr. Pugh in Chilmark, Massachusetts.

[chiptune]

Mini-Update: Eurovision

TS: For months, the competition at Eurovision has been heating up. And this past weekend, it hit 100 degrees. You may recall that last week we told you about some committed Eurovision fans who were hauling a working sauna from Finland, all the way to Switzerland for this past weekend's Eurovision grand finals. And, naturally, using it a lot along the way. The group was rooting, of course, for KAJ -- Sweden's Eurovision contender -- and their ode to the sauna. I can now report that KAJ did not actually win. Luckily for the sauna fans, I'm pretty sure the loss was no sweat. Here's what sauna-hauler Robin Nyman had to say, when we reached him on the road, last week.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBIN NYMAN: It's just a few more days to go and we are reaching the foot of the Alps, so it should be alright.

NK: Oh, it should be beautiful.

RN: Yes.

NK: So, if they win or lose, whether they win or lose, it sounds like you're pretty happy with how things are going so far?

RN: That's true. The core of our project is connection and building bridges to other people and going into the sauna with strangers and, hopefully, coming out from the sauna with friends. So, whether our group that we are supporting is winning or losing, it's not a big deal. I think we are all winners in this together anyway.

TS: Eurovision fan Robin Nyman talking to Nil as he and some friends drove a sauna some 3,000 kilometres to Switzerland for Saturday's Grand Final. After enough time in the sauna, clearly nothing can rattle you, even if you've built a steam room from scratch and hauled it for days through several countries only for your band to come in fourth place. Glad they feel like their efforts weren't wasted.

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Part 2: Trump/Putin Call, Authenticated Magna Carta, WWII Pilot Plaque

Trump/Putin Call

Guest: Shashank Joshi

TS: When it comes to the U.S.-led peace talks between Russia and Ukraine, there's largely been more talk than action. And today, the talking continued, as U.S. President Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin were on the phone for more than two hours. Ahead of the call, President Trump pledged to make progress toward a ceasefire in the war in Ukraine. And his Vice President, JD Vance, made some pronouncements of his own.

SOUNDCLIP

JD VANCE: Look, I'd say we're more than open to walking away. The president's been very clear, this is not, the United States is not going to spin its wheels here. We want to see outcomes. There are a lot of economic benefits to thawing relations between Russia and the rest of the world, but you're not going to get those benefits if you keep on killing a lot innocent people.

TS: U.S. Vice President JD Vance speaking to reporters on Air Force 2 -- before today's call between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. After getting off the phone, President Trump said "progress has been made" and said Russia and Ukraine will, quote, "immediately" begin ceasefire negotiations. Shashank Joshi is defence editor for The Economist. We reached him in Buckinghamshire, England.

DS: Shashank, the U.S. president believes today's call with Vladimir Putin went very well. How significant do you think this call was in terms of potentially -- or eventually -- reaching some kind of peace deal?

SHASHANK JOSHI: It was a significant call, but not because it is likely to produce a peace deal, quite the opposite. It was significant because what we saw today was further evidence of something that had been becoming clear, which is that Donald Trump has been abandoning his own demands for a ceasefire. But most importantly of all, in the message he posted after this phone call, we did not get even a hint of pressure on Russia in order to indicate that there might be some consequences should it not show flexibility in the direct talks with Ukraine that Donald Trump has now said are the main channel for peace.

DS: Yet, it was a two-hour phone call. Can you speculate on what came up over two hours?

SJ: Well, we know that Vladimir Putin is very fond of recounting historical grievances going right back to the 19th century and earlier. We've seen him do it again and again with officials. No doubt he recounted the history of Crimea, the role of Nikita Khrushchev in giving it away. These kinds of things are staples for Putin. I'm sure the two sides discussed other possibilities. And, of course, it's possible that Trump raised threats in private that he didn't talk about in his public posts. Maybe he did say to Putin that if you don't show flexibility, if you don't strike a deal with the Ukrainians in a reasonable time, we are willing to put sanctions on, the sanctions that Americans have been discussing and hinting at. But I think that's unlikely. I think what was probably discussed was, you know, more of a general sense in Trump saying, I want this peace deal, I want the bloodshed to end, and I'm willing to offer you some great inducements if you do it. But I am skeptical -- and this is the critical part -- I am skeptical fundamentally that there was a real sense of Vladimir Putin of consequences if he doesn't do it.

DS: Now, U.S. Vice President JD Vance was in Rome yesterday and met with Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Earlier today, Mr. Vence said the U. S. is still, quote, more than open to walking away if Russia doesn't engage. What incentive does Russia have to continue these discussions?

SJ: I think that Russia's principal incentive to continue in these talks was to avoid incurring the wrath of Donald Trump. It was to avoid being seen as the recalcitrant party responsible for the collapse of diplomacy. And that, in a way, was motivating both the Russian side and the Ukrainian side and the Europeans. The Europeans were doing their best to say, and so were the Ukrainians, to show Trump we're doing all we can. They showed repeated willingness to compromise. Um, and they hope that by doing so, they would persuade Trump to apply pressure on Russia. Putin -- for his part, i think -- wanted to show that he was doing his best. In a way however, I think the need for that pretense has fallen away because Trump is now saying essentially this is not our problem. This is about direct talks between the Ukrainians and the Russians. It's not about us. We don't need to broker it, we're not going to play a role in this. And the message for Russia is that it doesn't really matter whether we concede or don't concede in the diplomacy with Ukraine. America's not interested. America is going to walk away in one form or another. So, there is still incentive, I think, for Russia to keep up the fig leaf of serious diplomacy. But all in all, this is, I think, quite an important day in signaling America's detachment from this process.

DS: If it's just a fig leaf, what is President Putin's end goal here then?

SJ: I think his end goal remains the same: the subjugation of Ukraine by whatever means possible. And right now, those means continue to be sustained, relentless pressure on the battlefield, a belief that Ukraine's polity, economy, military society will no longer be able to withstand this pressure. And that that moment will be hastened if America walks away and if Europe is unable to fill the gap to an adequate degree. And I think right now, the politics is moving in their favour. So, that narrative they tell themselves, that theory of victory, is looking more attractive than it has done for some time to Putin.

DS: Barely a month ago, the U.S. proposed a peace deal at the talks in Paris. If this is now America walking away, what will it take to get a ceasefire?

SJ: I think the only two ways to do it, well, they're fairly straightforward. One of them is capitulation. There is always a deal to be done if you simply give in. And the Ukrainians could do that. The Ukrainians can say, look, we're going to accede to the terms that you have, which are limits on the size of our armed forces and neutralization, denazification. That could happen. That could happen. But I don't think the Ukrainians will do it. Why would they? They still feel they can survive and fight. The other path is for Russia to come to believe it can no longer get what it wants on the battlefield. That is some time away. We are not there yet. And Donald Trump, with his approach, is delaying that kind of reckoning. He's delaying the time at which that will occur. So, right now, I think it's going to take a long, long time to persuade Russia that its strategy isn't working. We're in for this for a while, I'm afraid.

DS: Before we let you go, earlier in our program, we covered this new deal that's been announced between the EU and the U.K., both of which are big supporters of Ukraine. In addition to trade and fishing, that agreement had some security and defence provisions. Could that help shape or add pressure to the U.S. support for Ukraine?

SJ: I'm afraid not particularly, no. At the end of the day, I don't think there are any direct consequences for Ukraine. It might allow the U.K. and the EU to sort of swap information on security threats, which they couldn't previously for data protection reasons, for instance. But ultimately, this is still a question of hard power, churning out military weapons, and still being able to buy some key systems from America. So, really, it still depends on America.

DS: Shashank, we'll leave it there.

SJ: Thank you so much for having me.

TS: Shashank Joshi is defence editor for The Economist. We reached him in Buckinghamshire, England.

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Authenticated Magna Carta

Guest: David Carpenter

TS: The Magna Carta. It's one of the pillars of our entire legal system - and the very concept of human rights. In 1215, it was the first British document to establish that no-one was above the law - not even the king. It created the system of checks and balances and limits on power that autocrats seek to topple, even today. An original copy of the Magna Carta is as priceless as the principles it established. Until last week, there were only six known original copies of the version of the document created in 1300. Now, there are seven. Days ago, historians announced that they'd discovered one hiding in plain sight. It was in the archives of the Harvard University Law School, where it was purchased for $27.50 in 1946 - and long believed to be an unofficial copy made years after the original's creation. David Carpenter was the first person to recognize its true provenance. He's a professor of medieval history at the University College London. We reached him there.

DS: Professor Carpenter, was there a eureka moment when you realized that this document was something much more than what people had long thought it to be?

DAVID CARPENTER: Well, there was. I mean, I was working through the online images of a wonderful collection of medieval manuscripts in the Harvard Law School. So, I clicked on this particular image, and lo and behold, it looked for all the world like an original of the 1300 Magna Carta. So, I was astonished to find it there, because I then investigated what did Harvard Law School think it was. And they had no idea that it was original. They thought it was a much later copy. So, I was flabbergasted. And, of course, very excited.

DS: What goes through your mind as you're thinking, wait a minute, this is the real thing?

DC: Astonishment and excitement. Astonishment, of course, that a little probing showed that Harvard Law School had acquired it in 1946 for $27, $28, and without any knowledge of what it was, they thought it was just a later copy. So, I mean, if it was valued for auction today, I suppose it would be worth millions of dollars. So, [chuckling] I mean, there was a two-fold astonishment. One is not often, indeed ever, in one's academic career likely to discover an original Magna Carta. Equally, one is astonishing to discover that it had been acquired for nothing at all, virtually speaking, and yet was worth millions of dollars. My friend and fellow Magna Carta pundit Nicholas Vincent investigated this. And he was able to show how. And the answer is this, that it had been in the possession of a First World War fighter ace, Air Vice Marshal Sammy Maynard. And he had decided to sell it in 1946. And he sold it via Sotheby's and a dealer called Sweet and Maxwell to Harvard Law School. And neither he, nor Sotheby's, nor Sweet and Maxwell, nor Harvard Law School had any clear idea of what they were actually dealing with.

DS: So, what is particularly significant about this version of the Magna Carta created in 1300?

DC: It's this. The first Magna Carta was issued by King John in 1215. And it then went through, in the course of the 13th century, a series of different editions. Now, the very last edition is this one, the 1300 one, and it has a most special status because it's the last time the king set out the full text of Magna Carta when confirming it, the last he sealed the charter, and the last there was a full witness list. So, all the people who witnessed this final 1300 confirmation, all their names are there, and that indicates that it was done in Parliament, and that this is what the huge witness list, the King's Seal, gives the Charter of 1300, statutory authority. So, it's the final Magna Carta. And thus, has a special status.

DS: And for those of us who aren't well-read on the Magna Carta, give us a sense of what its historical significance is.

DC: Magna Carta asserts the rule of law. It says that the king cannot simply say off with your head, into prison, I'm seizing your property. If he wants to act against you in any way, he has to do so by due process of law. It didn't just assert that fundamental principle in a series of high-sounding platitudes. It did so in great detail across the whole running of royal government. So, justice, finance, local administration, treatment of the church, and so on. So, it's a nitty-gritty of the charter in a series of do's and don'ts. Which really made it so important in the 13th century, in its first century, and was the reason why people treasured it.

DS: And what is it that gives you great assurance that this is an original?

DC: Yeah. A series of things here. The first was the general appearance of the charter. In terms of its handwriting, it's very similar to the other 1300 originals. In terms of its size and shape, it is very comparable to them. But I think the most important thing of all is the actual text. So, what I did was to work through the Harvard Law School one word for word. I did it three separate times, very, very eye-straining work. And some anxiety as well, but it passed the test with flying colours. Its text is, virtually speaking, identical to the text found in the other six originals.

DS: So, your discovery has been making headlines around the world. What do you hope people hearing the story today in 2025 will take away about the significance of the Magna Carta, not just the physical document, but the principles therein?

DC: Yeah. Harvard Law School, after all, is one of the great centres for the study of law. And therefore, it's completely appropriate that it now has one of the most iconic and important foundational documents asserting the rule of law. I hope it will be inspirational. It's going to be put on display at Harvard, and I hope they'll take away its message.

DS: What do you make of the timing of your discovery, given that Harvard is under some attack and in great conflict with the president of the United States currently?

DC: It's obviously up to people in the United States of America to make of it what they will in current circumstances. That's not for me as an outsider to comment on.

DS: Fair enough. Well, congratulations and thank you very much for telling us about it.

DC: Thank you for calling. It's been a pleasure.

CH: David Carpenter is a professor of medieval history at the University College London, which is where we reached him.

[chillhop house tour music]

WWII Pilot Plaque

Guest: Craig McKie

TS: Like some 42,000 other Canadian families, Craig McKie and his mother Margaret Rae McKie received terrible news during the Second World War. It was May, 1944 -- a week before D-Day -- and Craig's father --Margaret's husband -- had been killed. Donald Galloway Watt McKie was 24 years old when his plane was shot down over Dorset. And for a long time, that's pretty much all his family knew. But now, more than 80 years later, Craig McKie has learned a whole lot more. And his efforts to piece together what actually happened the day his father and at least five other Royal Canadian Air Force members died are culminating in the installation of a new plaque at the site of the crash, later this month. We reached Craig McKie in Chilliwack, B.C.

DS: Craig, you were just two months old when your father died. What were you told growing up about the circumstances around his death?

CRAIG MCKIE: Mostly an official letter which was sent to the families of people who died, which suggested that the crew of his plane died instantly.

DS: And that was all you knew?

CM: Pretty much where this crash was said to have occurred and where he was buried and so on.

DS: And then I understand last year, your granddaughter got involved, and a member of her family was given an assignment at school about D-Day. What exactly happened there?

CM: It's her youngest son was given an assignment to do something about D-Day. She lives in England, got in touch with the municipal government at the presumed site of the crash, asked if anyone would be able to comment on the history or this incident. And yes, there was somebody. This person turned out to be the chief custodian of the Portsmouth Naval Base historical exhibits. He became involved in this. He went to the determined where the site was and he had some interesting news, namely the plane was crash-landed in level flight. I mean, it was brought down in stable condition. It might have been on fire. And furthermore, that my father actually survived.

DS: He did?

CM: And was found by a home guard soldier under a hedge near the crash site. And he managed to survive for about half an hour before he died of his injuries. This was a complete shock because it was completely contrary to what we were told. It turns out his plane was shot up by an RAF Mosquito night fighter over the channel. It was a mistake. There was a court of inquiry. He was held to be guilty of faulty recognition, but he wasn't discharged from his service or anything like that because a week before D-Day, you just didn't do that to experienced pilots. Their services were required.

DS: So, your father's death was a military accident, a so-called friendly fire?

CM: Yes, that's exactly right.

DS: What did this historian and RAF veteran end up doing? I understand he actually took you to the crash scene. What was that like?

CM: He told me that the Canadian High Commissioner had come out to the site in the summer of 1944 and erected a plaque. We looked around. We couldn't find it. So, we sort of decided on the spot, well, let's do another plaque. This has now turned into a major event.

DS: Tell us about that. What are the plans to remark and commemorate?

CM: Well, we have done the plot done up. He's arranged for the RAF Red Arrows aerobatic team to overfly the event -- the unveiling. Various RAF officers will show up. We will have a piper to play Flowers of the Forest, which is the traditional lament for RCAF services like this. And he also had a metal detectorist show up at the crash site. And they've recovered, I understand, a lot of the materials from the cockpit area. But a lot a people who wanted to show up. One of Code breakers from Bletchley Park, who is now 101, is insisting on coming, and we don't know why.

DS: What do you think?

CM: I don't know. Maybe they were collecting signals. It had to be done every day because the Germans changed their code every day. And the new code had to be decrypted using the primitive computers at Bletchley Park, but that's speculation on my part. It may have been some personal reason why she wants to come.

DS: Have you managed to locate or connect with any of the other descendants of the airmen who were on board?

CM: Yes.

DS: Tell us about that.

CM: My daughter engaged the energies of some of her friends there in England, and they did ancestry.com searches on these names. And eventually, a couple of the other families were located. And they've been notified, and we will send them photographs.

DS: Now, your mother has since passed away. What do you think this ceremony and the installation of this plaque in Dorset would have meant to her?

CM: Oh, it would have been huge. She never lost track of the event. Like, it followed her through the rest of her life. Apparently, that's the case for these other families, as well, that it was a singular moment in their lives. And it just never went away.

DS: And again, for you, never having met your father, being able to go and commemorate him, what does that mean to you?

CM: It brings a certain closure to this story. I would like to have a piece of the wreckage, and that would complete the entire 81-year cycle for me. For my children, who never knew him, they're intent on being there as well. So, we'll have my children, some of my grandchildren, my cousins are coming. It'll be an inventive closure, I hope.

DS: I hope so, too. Craig, thank you for telling us about it. And it sounds like you still have more to discover about your father.

CM: Oh indeed, [chuckling] it's been an extraordinary trip

DS: Thanks for telling us about it.

CM: No problem.

TS: Craig McKie's father, Donald Galloway Watt McKie, was killed over Dorset in May, 1944. Later this month, a plaque will be installed there in his honour. We reached Craig McKie in Chilliwack, B.C.

[lofi]

TS: Coming up, Nil and Chris are back with a special edition of As It Happened: The Archive Edition.

[music fades up]

Part 3: ‘As It Happened: Journeys’

‘As It Happened: Journeys’

NK: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happened: The Archive Edition.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Retracing our steps. We have a packed itinerary for you, as we head into the As It Happens archives and return with mementos from our encounters with people who've been on surprising and incredible journeys.

CH: A joker in the packing. A New Brunswick woman bid farewell to her cat before going on a trip -- only to reach her destination and pull said cat out of her checked bag.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: I had no idea what it was at first. All I knew there was a piece of fur sticking out of my clothes, that I knew I didn't pack.

NK: The doctor is in transit. No one likes hearing a flight attendant ask if there's a doctor on board, including the doctors -- but when that happened on Aisha Khatib's flight, she sprang into action.

AISHA KHATIB: I realize there was a woman lying on the seat and her head was toward the aisle and her feet were toward the window and there was a baby coming out."

CAROL OFF: Wow!

CH: And…going to great arm's lengths. In 1980, a chemist selling bug repellent told us about travelling with thousands of mosquitoes on his work trips -- and the uncomfortable demonstrations, when he got the itch to show off his wares.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: Just in one session at one of these sportsman shows, I think I had probably in the neighbourhood of 500 on my arm.

CH: As It Happened, the Archive Edition. Radio that's got the travel bugs.

[theme]

CH: Check. Check. Got that. Can't forget that. Oh, hello -- I'm just going through my checklist for a little trip. I'm packing my bag right now. And, of course, I'll catch up on some reading. Or I could just re-read all the Twilight books. They weigh about six pounds altogether, but it's worth it.

[racoons!!!]

CH: Oh, yeah, hi. Sorry. Yeah, hi! It's the raccoons who live in the ceiling of our studio. Well, I'd love to bring you with me but, first of all, there's no room in my bag, especially with all five of these Twilight tomes. Plus, there's no way I'd get you through security.

[more racoons!]

CH: What? Okay, yes, but that was obviously an exception. Look, the raccoons are always bringing up the story Mary Martell shared with us on As It Happens. In 2007, before catching a flight from Saint John, New Brunswick to Toronto, she very purposefully packed everything she'd need, and very accidentally packed something else: her cat Ginger. Ms. Martell told the story to guest host Mark Kelley.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK KELLY: Well let's pick up the story from your what, you're packed, you're headed to the airport. When do you first have a inkling that maybe something isn't quite right?

MARY MARTELL: I never had an inkling that something wasn't quite right. I guess my only suspicion at the time was the questioning I received from security, which I didn't even think was, I guess I didn' t, in hindsight, I should have thought more about it.

MK: What did security ask you?

MM: They asked me if I had, it looked like I had a turkey in my luggage. [MK laughs] And I thought, well, of course, you know, I'm trying to get through security and going, why would I have a turkey on my luggage? And they said, well it looks like a turkey. Now, I didn't even think to look at the screen.

MK: Right.

MM: And I didn't even think, well, let's open it up. I just was adamant, I have no reason to pack a turkey into my luggage, and they took that at face value.

MK: And they didn't open the bag to check?

MM: Not at all. And actually, it was really weird because I thought about it, the bag, of course, you have to put it on the conveyor belt wheels up. So, that means Ginger was, in essence, upside down [both laugh] when she went through the X-ray machine. So, it was interesting.

MK: So, you're checking in here. This is in Saint John, correct?

MM: Yes, that's right.

MK: And where does the bag come out on the other end?

MM: It comes through the X-ray machine, and as long as they're satisfied, it goes through the conveyor belt to the guys out there that load the plane.

MK: And I've seen that, and I don't know, I watch it, I'm always curious, I travel a lot, and I look out and I watch those bags get tossed around and I always cringe.

MM: It now will give me a shiver to think, I do shiver at the thought of what she must have gone through.

MK: So, the plane, so the bag gets on the plane the plane then flies to Toronto, offloaded, comes down on the carousel.

MM: And with the bags, of course, [both laugh] you don't visualize the cat in there at the time, but then you reflect back like, oh my goodness, what was she thinking?

MK: So then, so then you pick up the bag from the carousel.

MM: I do, and she, you know, I noticed it's off balance a bit, but I thought things shift in flight, whatnot.

MK: Right.

MM: And things did shift. It was her. And I put her on our carrier to walk through the Toronto-Pearson Airport to go and get our rental car.

MK: You still have no idea?

MM: None at all. She didn't scream, she didn't whine, she didn't, I didn't even see the bag move. You would think you would see some bump of some kind.

MK: So then, you get your car, you drive to Niagara-on-the-Lake?

MM: Yes, we did. It was about an hour-and-a-half drive. And she's in the back of the SUV; we rented an SUV. There was no screaming or any indication we had an extra passenger.

MK: Okay, I'm building up here towards the big reveal, [MM laughs] so set the scene for me.

MM: Well, we got there and as I say, it was about 9:30 we arrived. And, of course, we checked in. And again, you know, we were just taking our time. And everyone agreed, well, let's meet in five minutes because we hadn't eaten supper. And after about an hour, we agreed, you now, go to bed. So, that's when I proceeded to go to my hotel room, opened my bag. And I had no idea what it was at first, but all I knew was this piece of fur was sticking out of my clothes that I knew I didn't pack. And I automatically thought maybe my daughter had put a piece of her clothing in there by mistake. And -- of course, at this point -- I hadn't turned the lights on fully in the hotel room. But I did look, and I saw a coat similar to my cat, and I got, I just freaked out. Oh my God, and then I poked her, and then she poked out her head from the clothes. And she, the only thing to, for me, I remember just seeing her pupils were fully dilated. I believe she was stunned.

MK: I can understand why after that trip.

MM: Oh my gosh, yes. She was stunned. She didn't even jump or was startled. She just casually lifted her head up, turned around, and looked at me.

MK: And looked at you and said, what are you doing here in my hotel room?

MM: [both laugh] Exactly, like you're disturbing me. I picked her up and I, of course, checked for physical injuries. And not even thinking of the physical abuse she may have taken getting there. She was fine, she jumped out of my arms and proceeded to look around her hotel room to make sure everything was in check. [laughing] It was quite odd. I was the one panicking at that point, not her.

MK: So, here you are in a hotel room in Niagara-on-the-Lake, and you've got to be thinking, now what? How do I get you into your home?

MM: Oh exactly, the anxiety level just increases. Of course, the first thing I do is call my husband. And when I spoke to him I didn't just right away say anything. Of course, I did the enquiry and I said have you looked for the cat? And thankfully, he was honest. He said no.

MK: Oh, I wish it said, oh, Ginger's right here. [laughing]

MM: Oh yeah, yeah, well, he said no. And I said, have you seen her? No. I said well don't even bother looking because she's in here in the hotel room with me in my luggage. And he proceeded to just crack up, of course. He thought that was quite hilarious. Of course, I did too at the time, we were all laughing, my daughter Jennifer was on the phone. But then, that's when the anxiety and panic hit, like what am I going to do with this cat for two days? And how am I going to get it home? And worst of all, the embarrassment of saying [laughing] I was not, you know, didn't even have the hindsight to check the luggage to think that a cat was in my bag.

MK: Well, that's not, Mary, that's not the first instinct that most people have, is to check your bag to make sure there's no pet inside.

MM: I know. I know. But you really feel a little bit stupid [laughing] when you start telling the story.

MK: So, how did you get Ginger home? Did you do first class, front of the plane?

MM: [laughing] I should have pushed for that, me at the front of the plane. But no, the flight from Toronto Saint John has no first class, but she did, I guess in context to how she got there, was first class. We bought a larger carrier for her and we had a nice little blanket in there. So, she had a lot of room to spare.

MK: I can only imagine now the next time I'm gonna fly that when I go through security that there's some person who's gonna say do you have any pets [MM laughs] in your luggage because this will be the new directive sent out.

MM: Well, you know, you think about the cost savings if you put them in your luggage.

MK: Yeah, well, just ask the pets whether they're all for that. So, how is Ginger doing today?

MM: Oh, Ginger is no worse for wear. The only complaint she had was coming home in the car. That was the first time she vocalized her dissatisfaction with her traveling arrangement.

MK: She likes flying, but she doesn't like driving.

MM: That's right. Yeah, she'd rather go air. We're gonna get her one of the air miles cards, we decided, to see if she'd be willing to do this again. But no, she's fine. She's healthy. She is no worse for wear.

[orchestral]

CH: From 2007, that's Mary Martell talking to guest host Mark Kelley about accidentally packing her cat, Ginger, in her luggage -- and somehow getting through airport security.

CH: Nobody wants anything dramatic to happen on a plane. You just want to get where you're going with a minimum of fuss and a maximum of comfort. But stressful events do happen, such as mild turbulence, or a failure of the in-flight entertainment system, or going into labour. That last one is the scariest. And it's the situation a passenger found herself in, on a flight from Qatar to Uganda in 2022. But luckily, Dr. Aisha Khatib was there. Dr. Khatib told former host Carol Off about what happened next.

SOUNDCLIP

DAK: About an hour into the flight, they announced over the intercom. They asked if there was a doctor or medical personnel on board? I had headed back towards the kind of the end of the plane and the back economy section, and I saw this crowd of people. And so as I got closer, I realized there was a woman lying on the seat and her head was towards the aisle, and her feet were towards the window, and there was a baby coming out.

CO: Wow! You could actually see it? The baby was… with the crown of the head was already emerging?

DAK: Oh, the baby was almost halfway out, more than halfway out.

CO: What did you do?

DAK: Well, there was an air steward who was in the row. She was kind of blocking me from getting in. I kind of looked at her and said, do you know how to deliver a baby? And she was like, no. And I said, well, move! [laughing] Get out of the way! So I… somebody passed me some gloves, and I kind of just leaned over and, you know, grabbed Baby. And as that was happening, somebody on my left said, I'm a nurse, can I help you? And I said, yes, I need the medical kit. You know, there should be a delivery kit in there. If not, I need… I need clamps. I need scissors. If we don't have clamps, I need shoelaces. And I'm thinking, I need hot water. And then I'm like, no, I do not need hot water, but they always ask for that in the movies. [both laugh]

CO: I was going to ask you, did you have hot water?

DAK: You know, I'm like, do I need to ask for hot water? No, no, I don't need hot water.

CO: How was the mother doing during all of this?

DAK: She was calm. She was calm. She was focused. I mean, I think she was in shock, you know, to tell you the truth. Because she… basically, what happened was she had told the air steward that she was having, like, severe abdominal pain. And the air stewardess was like, are you pregnant? And she was like, oh my God, I think the baby's coming. Like, I don't think she realized. I mean, she knew she was pregnant, but she hadn't had any prenatal care. And so there… and even when I got to this situation, like I had no history of anything about her. And so that's always a little bit of a scary situation. It was… we were very lucky that everything went very smoothly.

CO: Was she travelling alone?

DAK: Yes. Yes, she was travelling alone.

CO: She must… it must have been really scary for her to be there. It was so good that you could help. And so were you able to… I mean, the baby was coming fast. What did you have to do in order to, I guess, get this delivery done properly?

DAK: Yeah. So Babes was out on the seat at that point. And another lady popped over on the right side of me, and she was like, I'm a pediatrician with MSF. And I was like, this is great! I've got a whole team. So basically, I clamped the cord, and we cut the cord and checked Baby over. You know, she was crying and robust and whatnot. And so I can handed her to the pediatrician and was like, have a look because I still needed to deliver the placenta and make sure Mom was okay. So I'm not a small person. So you can imagine, like, these are… these are the back aisle seats in the economy. And so she's… I mean, she's petite as it is, but I'm basically my back's up against the window. I've got one leg, you know, holding me up, one leg kind of knelt on the seat. Her… Mom is pretty much straddling me. And also, you know, I'm cautious that I don't want her to bleed and don't want this to be a situation. So I had to go very slow with the placenta delivery. Then, you know, the pediatrician handed the baby back to me, and I checked her out again. She looked okay. And then, at that point, Mom was stable. She was comfortable. And I said, okay, well, congratulations. It's a girl. And at that point, the entire plane erupted in clapping and cheering, [CO chuckles] and I was like, oh right, I'm on a plane! [both laugh] I forgot about that! And everyone's watching. [laughing]

CO: You were that focused that you had… you'd forgotten even what was around you, all these people who are waiting to find out.

DAK: Yeah, I had to be, right? Like, in that situation, you just kind of focus on the situation at hand. And then I realized, yes, all these people were around me. Actually, there was even a little girl just kind of over my right shoulder on the seat in front of me, and she was just casually watching this whole thing. [laughing] And I'm thinking, oh, my goodness. And so then, one of the aircrew had the doctor from MedLink online, and he said, did you want to divert or land? I said, you know, there are still five hours left of the plane ride. And I said, no, I think we're good. We got her up into the business area and got her cleaned up. And I said we need to start skin-to-skin. And we got Baby latched and started her breastfeeding right away. Then, yeah, and then, Mom… so the best part is mom named the baby after me.

CO: No!

DAK: Absolutely lovely. So she named her miracle Aisha.

CO: Oh, that's lovely!

DAK: Oh my gosh! It was like [lovely sigh] my heart melted. [chuckling] Yeah, so I had a little… I had a necklace on that had my name in Arabic on it, so I gave it to her as my namesake. And so that she always remembers that, you know, she was delivered by a lady named Aisha up in the air above… flying above the Nile. It's pretty spectacular.

CH: That's Dr. Aisha Khatib from Toronto talking to Carol Off in 2022. Dr. Khatib didn't expect to have to do what she does for a living while she was travelling. But, for Vincent D'Orazio travelling was a big part of what he does for a living. In 1980, he was a research chemist for a company that made bug repellent,and he travelled to trade shows to sell the product. Which sometimes meant live demonstrations, involving thousands of mosquitoes -- and Mr. D'Orazio's arms as bait. Here he is telling our former host Barbara Frum about his job.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: Have you any idea how many mosquito bites you've had in your life?

VINCENT D'ORAZIO: Oh gee, I couldn't begin to count them. I think just in one session, though, at one of the sportsmen shows, I think I had probably in a neighbourhood of 500 on my arm.

BF: Some of them you must just loathe, don't you? [VD chuckles] There's always one of them that really gets you mad.

VD: [laughing] No, you get to like them after a while.

BF: Do you keep a box of mosquitoes? Do you have a traveling act?

VD: Yes, we actually have a box of mosquitoes that we take with us in these demonstrations. It holds about 25,000 mosquitoes. We keep them in separate containers in this box, about 5,000 mosquitos to a container.

BF: Do you use alternate arms?

VD: Yes, what we normally do is we use one arm without repellent so that people will see that the mosquitoes will actually bite if you don't have repellant. And on the other arm, we put our product.

BF: Dr. D'Orazio, when your traveling road show is on the road, where do you park your mosquitoes at night? Do you take them into the hotel with you?

VD: I put them in my bathroom. They love it in there. I turn on the shower and get it nice and steamy, and they just thrive in there. But whenever I walk in there, they certainly get excited.

BF: [both laugh] Oh sure, you're the mother lode.

VD: That's right.

BF: What does the hotel keeper say? They must get excited, too.

VD: Well, sometimes. I've had some unusual experiences in some of the hotels, to say the least. I was in one hotel where the maid, she refused to clean the room.

BF: Have you never had an accident?

VD: Uh, well, I had one accident. [chuckling] one small accident. I had a cage tip over in my bathroom. And 5,000 of them got away. And although I thought --

BF: And they multiply fast, too.

VD: [chuckling] Well, only if they can get the blood, and some of them did get to me before I got them all.

[psychedelic rock]

CH: That was Vincent D'Orazio speaking to Barbara Frum in 1980.

[music fades up]

CH: There are a lot of different ways to get to where you're going. You can fly sitting in a special ergonomic pod with plenty of leg room and bottomless champagne. Or, if you're travelling on a lower budget, you can be crammed into something the size of a toddler's carseat, between two angry toddlers. Or if you're travelling on an even lower budget, there's hitch-hiking, which is free. That's what Chris and Karen McCallum opted to do in 2024. Not for themselves, but for a lobster trap with a plush souvenir toy inside named Lucky. It started as a way for the McCallums to get a heavy lobster trap from Charlottetown to their home in Okotoks, Alberta. And it quickly turned into a worldwide online phenomenon dubbed "Lobster Quest 2024." Chris and Karen spoke to guest host Catherine Cullen in the middle of Lucky the Lobster's cross-country journey.

SOUNDCLIP

CC: Chris, what do you know about where Lucky and the trap are right now?

CHRIS MCCALLUM: Well, we have an AirTag sewn into Lucky the Lobster, our stuffed lobster, so we know exactly where he is. And he is at the home of the handler. The young lady and her daughter who have it in Winnipeg right now at this moment.

CC: So, he's in Winnipeg. Karen, at this rate, how soon do you think he'll make it to your home?

KAREN MCCALLUM: Well, we're thinking that he could be in Okotoks as early as next week. This weekend he is moving to Saskatchewan, and the girl that will have him in Saskatchewan has offered to bring him to Medicine Hat, Alberta so he could be in Okotoks next week.

CC: By the time you see him Karen, he's going to be a very worldly stuffed lobster. What kind of adventures has he had along the way?

KM: Oh, my goodness. It has just been absolutely hilarious watching. He's done more than Chris and I put together across Canada. He's been in a race car and he won the race, so they put the trophy inside the trap. The RCMP got a picture with them and did a record check on him. He's been to the vet. He's been roller skating. He's been to the Terry Fox monument. He's been to a scallop festival in New Brunswick.

CC: A little edgy, sending a lobster to a scallop festival no?

KM: Yeah, right. [laughter]

CC: Chris, every good traveller loves a souvenir. What kind of souvenirs has Lucky picked up along the way?

CM: He's got 2 or 3 different stuffed moose along with him. He's got a blue spider, man. He's picked up a wooden alien somehow. And, a Quebec flag with the Fleur-de-lis on it. He's got all kinds of goodies. And old Tim Horton's mug was picked up at a yard sale, and that was put in there. And among many other items, including hundreds of signatures on the wooden trap itself. So, we're super thrilled that, you know, Canadians have embraced this like they have.

CC: What are people telling you, Chris? It's not just Canadians. I understand there are people around the world who are following Lucky and the traps progress. What are they saying to you about why they find this so compelling?

CM: They find it warm that Canadians are like... And you're right. It has been global, South Africa, all across continental Europe, New Zealand, Australia, the Philippines and of course, all around the States they're following. And, you know, it was interesting. It was important for us to see Lucky get photographed at the Terry Fox Memorial. And someone from the UK asked us, who's Terry Fox. So, it gave us an opportunity to educate, you know, not only the followers but those around the world and fellow Canadians about, you know, why that legend that you know, that Canadian hero is so important to all of us. And, and to get Lucky photographed there was pretty cool.

CC: Karen, is there one particular whether it's a handler, somebody who's been bringing lucky along or a reaction like one person whose reaction has really stood out to you?

KM: You know, I think, the very first person, Kyra from Moncton, New Brunswick, when it arrived, a woman walking by saw it and put it on TikTok and said, can we help Karen and Chris get this across Canada. And a young lady and her mom travelled an hour to find Lucky along the riverbank. And she was so excited. And it was her idea to put markers, in the trap and have Canadian's sign it along his trip. So, she was the one that really got people... set the tone for the whole journey.

CC: It's not exactly the, the artefact, the object that you initially imagined. Of course, the trap is now had... gotten Lucky. And this whole other life. What are you going to do with it once it does get to your house, Karen.

KM: You know, we were talking about that because we wanted this trap, because our roots are in Prince Edward Island. Chris's mom and dad are from there. So, we wanted a piece of the East for our home. So, you know, we've travelled out to Prince Edward Island numerous times, and we thought this, lobster trap would be so cool to have on our deck. In the foothills of Alberta. But now that Lucky is an internet sensation. We think we should build a shrine for him. [Laughter]

CC: What does a shrine to a viral lobster look like? Which is not a question I can tell you I've ever asked anyone in my life, but... [laughter] Really? What is it? What kind of a shrine to Lucky? What are you thinking? Something in the back yard?

KM: Yeah. It's going to be, I think, somewhere on our deck. You know, we've got a great big wraparound. We have a log home in the foothills of Alberta, and so I think he'll fit quite nicely. Under our pergola where we sit most evenings.

CC: So, Chris, this couldn't have happened without a lot of strangers pitching in. What does Lucky's quest tell you about Canadians?

CM: Well, I mean, that's a fantastic question because, you know, thinking about this from a big picture we've gone through, you know, a few divisive years here in the last 3 or 4 years perhaps, and in some strange way, and maybe I'm stretching it a bit, but in some strange way, this trap and the quest and, you know, the grassroots, real Canadians that have contributed and volunteered to hitchhike, this, has really brought us all together. You know, it's brought us from east to west. You know, he's not quite here yet, but, you know, we see it happening and it's been extremely heartwarming. You know, Canadians are unbelievable human beings, and we are extremely blessed to have been a part of this. And it's very humbling, but it's also an absolute riot.

CH: Chris and Karen McCallum speaking to guest host Catherine Cullen about "Lobster Quest 2024." After more than four months on a cross-country road trip thanks to the kindness of strangers, Lucky the Lobster did reach Chris and Karen in Okotoks, Alberta. And, if Lucky could talk, I'm sure it would be glad to be home after such a long road trip. Even after fulfilling and exciting trips, arriving back home can be the most rewarding part. That's what Damian Browne told us when he finished a truly epic journey. In 2022, he rowed across the Atlantic Ocean from Chelsea Piers in New York City to Galway, Ireland where he lives. He was at sea for more than 100 days, without knowing how to swim. Nil spoke to Damian Browne after about a week being back home.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Damien, I just have to start by asking why did you do this without knowing how to swim?

DAMIAN BROWNE: You know, it's often the place people start. Well, you know, there's there is a reason. And that is that it doesn't really matter if you can swim, if you lose contact with the boat in the middle of the Atlantic or any part of the Atlantic. The chances of you being able to reconnect to that boat is very, very slim. So the key is don't fall off the boat.

NK: Right. Well, we'll talk about what what did and did not happen on the boat in just a minute. But I think you've been on solid ground for just about a week now. Right. So how are you adjusting?

DB: Pretty good. Yeah, I think all things considered, I'm in a good place. Mentally, emotionally, very, very happy and content to be back with family, friends, my home town, solid ground food, bed, toilets, all the all that. What might be deemed too basics. But they’re, they’re a luxury for me right now at least.

NK: What were some of the most challenging parts while you were in it, physically and mentally?

DB: It's definitely a more challenging endeavour mentally than it is physically. You know, you have so much solitude, so much time on your own and so much resistance from the elements, from the weather conditions. I got particularly unlucky this year was with the conditions that came my way. So that meant I was I was going backwards a lot of the time. And the anticipation of the minute you lived on the doors, the stress of that over a long time, the relentlessness of it became mentally incredibly challenging, you know, to be able to pick yourself up to like raise your spirits again, that had taken a continually had bits and pieces of this kind of almost eaten away by the Atlantic. And it's it's relentless themselves in against you trying to achieve what you want to achieve or it's lack of care. At least you know that that was mentally destroying at times. And those moments of despair kind of closer to the end at 400 nautical miles to go. And it took out to Ireland at one point, and it took me 13 days to cover another hundred nautical miles till I got the tree hundred nautical miles to go. So that period in particular, I just felt like I was I was damned to row an ocean for the rest of my life. Honestly, that that was genuinely what was coming up for me at times.

NK: But you kept going.

DB: Yeah. I was able to dig deep and kind of from inside myself, you know, find the energy and the drive to do the work that would get me get me to Ireland. And I think that was the key. And then some really strong imagery, some really rich imagery that I had kind of built very powerful emotions with about coming into Galway Bay and connecting with different people there and the different tones I would see and eventually my own family and friends. And from that again, you know, emotion is energy. So again, great and positive energy to move forward.

NK: You were talking, Damien, about the imagery you had stored in your mind. And then after 112 days, you get to Galway, you're greeted by friends and family, you have a young daughter, as I understand it. What was it like, that that reunion in that moment?

DB: Well, the way it worked for me, was not exactly the visions I had had. I actually ended up getting pushed onto the rocks about five miles from my destination, which was the harbour in Gal city. So it didn't exactly make it how I had envisioned. But then the great thing about that landing, if you want, coming ashore like that, crawling, literally crawling onto Galway soil and Irish soil, was that I got to go back to my family home that night. I literally turned up at the door. Nobody knew, at half two in the morning, knocked on the door and my partner opened the window. Hello there. I was like, Baby, it's me. So we got to, you know, we got to spend that night together and then the next morning and then we went in kind of and did a fair a homecoming event, I suppose now had been organised. So that was that worked out much better because I can't imagine having come into the harbour and meeting her and Elodie my daughter and my parents and sister on the pontoon and then having thousands of people around as well. It was quite overwhelming as it was. So I never mind, you know, if I had just rolled in.

CH: That was Damian Browne speaking with Nil in 2022.

The AIH Transcript For May 19, 2025

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