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The AIH transcript for May 20, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Course of action, the leaders of France, Britain, and Canada threaten action against Israel if it doesn't end its military offensive in Gaza. A former Canadian ambassador tells us what that might accomplish, if anything.

CH: A problem that affects every faucet of their lives. In response to a water crisis in a small village in Nunavik, the mayor declares a state of emergency. She tells us what happened when a fire broke out and the firetruck ran out of water.

NK: Flight of extremely fancy. Trump says Qatar's offer of a free lavishly appointed jumbo jet is a nice gesture from an ally. But new reporting suggests there's more to the story.

CH: Picking up the checks. Magnus Carlsen may be the world's greatest chess player, but a game against 143,000 simultaneous opponents did not offer him the easy win he may have expected.

NK: The best things in life are three. An Ontario woman was shocked to find two female Robbins and a male co-parenting in a single nest on her front porch, a family she has dubbed the Avian Sister Wives.

CH: And...semicolon it quits. A new study finds the puzzling, peculiar punctuation mark is getting less popular all the time -- to the point where it may have been sentenced to death.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday Edition. Radio watches the collapse of the dot comma bubble.

[theme]

Part 1: Gaza/Israel Canadian Gov, Magnus Carlsen Match, Throuple Robins

Gaza/Israel Canadian Gov

Guest: Louise Blais

CH: The leaders of France, Britain and Canada are drawing a line in the sand. It's just not clear what's on the other side of that line. The three countries have issued a joint statement threatening action against Israel, if it does not stop its renewed military offensive in Gaza and lift restrictions on humanitarian aid. But they're not spelling out what form that action will take. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected the call to end the military operation -- and accused the three leaders of encouraging Hamas. This comes as the first aid trucks arrived in Gaza after an almost three-month blockade by Israel. Louise Blais is the former Canadian ambassador to the United Nations. We reached her in Quebec City.

NK: Louise Blais, from a diplomatic perspective, I wonder how would you describe the significance of this statement?

LOUISE BLAIS: Well, this is a very significant statement for two reasons. One, is it's between three G7 countries -- two European and, of course, Canada -- and the tone. The tone and the language that was used, I think, is really meant to telegraph to Israel and to some degree to the United States, obviously, which is the other target in a way of showing that you have allies here who feel there has to be urgency in establishing and maintaining the ceasefire because the suffering has gotten to such a level that has become untenable.

NK: I'll read a bit of the statement. It begins, quote, we strongly oppose the expansion of Israel's military operations in Gaza. The level of human suffering in Gaza is intolerable. The Israeli government's denial of essential humanitarian assistance to the civilian population is unacceptable and risks breaching international humanitarian law. They also say that Israel has a right to defend itself, but describe the military escalation as quote, wholly disproportionate. And that the three countries oppose any attempt to expand settlements in the West Bank. Why do you think this is happening now? There are many people who will see this as significant, as you said, others who have said this is coming so late, too late perhaps, and will words actually do anything? But why do think it's happening now?

LB: Well, I think in the past, I mean, there's been many statements that have been issued, and they've had very little effect on the resolve of Israel to continue with their military operation in Gaza. So, I think everyone is right to be a little skeptical. But it is coming at an inflection point. I think that there's a sense that the Americans are losing patience as well, and that Donald Trump, who had hoped that he would have by now resolved the conflict in the Middle East, is really wanting to see an end to the suffering and the fighting and the building of a just and lasting peace. It also is happening just a few weeks before a UN conference in New York that is for two days under the presidency of Saudi Arabia and France to look into this two-state solution and to build the path forward for Palestine post-conflict.

NK: The statement, as you know, threatens action if Israel doesn't stop what it's doing in terms of its military offensive. What might action actually look like?

LB: Well, that is an interesting part of the statement, and we're seeing that in parallel, there have been comments that have been made by the U.K. about potential sanctions. There was today a proposition to the EU by the Netherlands that the EU should suspend its cooperation agreement with Israel as long as the fighting goes on, and as long because it considers that Israel is breaching international law and norms. So, that puts economic pressure on Israel. And that could over time have an impact. But what we're hearing out of Israel today from the prime minister is a rejection of those pressure points. And, you know, vowing that they will continue to protect their citizen, and continue to ensure that Hamas is completely destroyed. So, we're not, at least today, getting the sense that this pressure is having an effect. But I think we'll have to wait and see how the Americans will react and watch it very closely over the next few days.

NK: What kind of sway, you mentioned the Americans, you mentioned the U.S. President, if that president is the one who has the levers to pull the real influence with Netanyahu and with the Israeli government, what do you think might actually happen? How will he sway Netanyahu?

LB: Well, nothing has worked so far, but he has not used all the biggest tools I think they could. If the United States decides to apply economic pressures, because they're incredibly, the two economies are quite tied, so if the United States decided to just put pause on some of those exchanges, I think that would apply pressure. But it's clear that Netanyahu is not motivated right now to end the conflict. He's, in fact, incentivized not to do so. Because as long as there is an active military operation, he remains in power and doesn't have to call an election, and also doesn't have to face the inquiry on the shortcomings that made the October 7th attack by Hamas that easy to perpetrate, really. So, we'll have to wait and see if the pressure that's now coming to bear will be enough to have him change course.

NK: Knowing what you know about how these diplomatic conversations work and the upcoming conference you mentioned in June, if this is an inflection point and this is the strongest statement yet, what would be a failure after this of the international community or at least the folks who've signed on to this?

LB: Well, Nil, this is a very good question. There's a lot at stake here. I think there's the reputational damage that could follow, not that the United Nations has really proved itself effective in this conflict and others in the past. But I think a lot of countries have put in quite a bit of currency into this conference, France and Saudi Arabia being at the forefront. We're hearing that France is considering potentially recognizing the state of Palestine, which they have not today. So, there are measures like this that will take place. And that would be, you know, a little bit of a success, but I think Israel will have to cooperate to some degree in this conference and to show a willingness to want to come around at some point to a peace table and plan for a future for the Palestinians, or else the conference will be a total failure. I mean, Israel is an integral part to any possible resolution. So, I think there's probably some work being done in the background leading up to the conference, but we'll have to wait and see. There's frustration mounting. Clearly, we're not getting the results, the allies are not getting the results that they thought. We're seeing the United States is showing indication of frustration. The president did not stop in israel on his Middle East trip. I think that sent the signal, but he has yet to have confront Netanyahu directly, and we're running out

NK: Louise Blais, I appreciate your time, as always. Thank you for this.

LB: Thank you for having me.

CH: Louise Blais is the former Canadian ambassador to the UN. She was in Quebec City. We requested an interview with Canada's foreign minister, Anita Anand, but she was not available today. Late this afternoon, Israel announced that 93 UN trucks carrying aid had entered Gaza.

[ambient]

Magnus Carlsen Match

Guest: Sam Copeland

CH: Magnus versus The World. It sounds like a Swedish superhero movie. Which would be great, especially if it had Stellan Skarsgard in it. And Alexander Skarsgard. And Bill Skarsgard. Anyway, what we're talking about is just slightly more exciting than that very-exciting prospect. Magnus versus The World was a freestyle chess faceoff between Magnus Carlsen and 143,000 people from around the world. Mr. Carlsen is, of course, a Norwegian chess grandmaster who has won the World Chess Championship and World Rapid Chess Championship five times each. He's currently the highest ranked player in the world, and widely considered to be the best chess player of all time. So, he was seemingly well poised to take on The World. Well, the match began 46 days ago, and ended this week...in a draw. Sam Copeland is the head of community at chess.com, who organized the match. He's also a chess master. We reached him in Columbia, South Carolina.

NK: Sam, is this a badge of honour for the world, or at least the 143,000 people in it?

SAM COPELAND: Absolutely. I've seen a lot of comments just with celebrations and enthusiasm, people feeling very, very proud of this kind of collective achievement. I think a badge of honour is a very good phrase for it.

NK: But for Magnus Carlsen, is this really a loss?

SC: I wouldn't say it's a loss. I would definitely focus on the achievement of the world. I think Magnus still played a really strong game. Certainly, he was hoping to win. He had a strong position out of the opening, and wasn't able to kind of break through against resilient defence. But he at no point played a bad move or anything like that. This wasn't quite enough to get the win in this particular case.

NK: He has described it, the Associated Press is reporting as, quote, very, very sound chess. I mean, is that the biggest compliment you could get from someone, [chuckling] a player like Magnus Carlsen?

SC: Absolutely. [NK chuckles] I think that is a real testament to the play. I think he's also just kind of describing the nature of the play. And we've seen this before in these kind of vote chest situations. Generally, the world gravitates to moves that are very, very, very natural. And so, it's kind of a hyperhuman play. It can be really difficult sometimes for the world to play strongly, if the right move just seems very, very unintuitive. But in this particular case, they were able to kind of treat that as a strength, pursue just the most natural paths, and avoid some of the pitfalls they could easily have gone into.

NK: What made it more difficult just that you're playing against a player of Magnus's caliber, or that 143,000 people have 24 hours to decide collectively on what move to make?

SC: Uh, I think that it absolutely is that element of having 143,000 people participating in the game. You know, so many votes are registered basically immediately when Magnus moves. Like, within a few minutes after he makes a move and the notification goes out and people can come and start voting for their move, there are thousands of votes. And on every single move, there are probably, like, 20 different possible moves that are getting votes. Some very few votes, but it is a little bit chaotic. And at the beginning of the game, it was like everyone was doing their own thing. So, there were good moves that were surfacing, but you'd see, like, four or five different moves picking up a lot of votes. And that just didn't feel very coordinated. They struggled in the opening. That was their most difficult phase. But they started learning how to coordinate and communicate more as the game went on. They were really planning ahead. And so, they got just much, much better about deciding before Magnus even moved. OK, we think he's likely to play one of these moves, and here's how we're going to respond to each of them.

NK: Did you, I mean, you organized it, as our listeners heard. You're a chess player as well. Did you participate in the voting as well?

SC: I did. I didn't ever put forward an opinion on any particular move because as an organizer, I prefer just to see how everything's playing out. I don't want to try to engage in some influence within the community, but I would vote for some of the moves that I thought were most interesting at different points. I admit at the beginning of the game, I also voted for some troll moves. In chess, there's a thing called the bong cloud where you try to move your king really early. It's a very bad strategy, but it's considered very fun, so I couldn't resist voting for that on Move 2. But fortunately, the stronger moves did win out in the end.

NK: The other win for you as an organizer, not to mention everyone else, this is the third time this has happened, but it is the biggest group of people by quite a big margin. You convinced Carlsen to do this by pitching freestyle chess as what was going to happen, right? What is it about freestyle chess that keeps him interested and you think got him to say yes?

SC: Um, absolutely. As you mentioned, we've done this before a few times. Um, so in fall, we did this with Vishy Anand, an absolutely legendary player, and we had around 65,000 people participate in that. And that was a great game. Vishy won a really beautiful game with multiple sacrifices. We wanted to do something bigger. And the only thing we could think of that would be bigger would be to see if Magnus would be interested in playing. And he was hesitant. You know, he's very, very busy, always playing in tournaments and everything, and this is a bit of a commitment because for about a month-and-a-half, you're needing to make a move every day. And we really appreciate that. Ultimately, when we pitch the idea of freestyle chess, where you scramble the pieces on the back row to create a brand new starting position, all of the strategy is still the same, but the starting position right out of the gate is totally new. He was into that idea. He's been playing chess for so long. He loves ways to freshen up the game. He's an advocate for freestyle chess. And so, that was compelling to him. And I think it was really exciting that so many people got to experience freestyle chess through this particular game. And we've seen the number of games on chess.com in freestyle chess double over the course of the year.

NK: You'll need a chance to catch your breath and celebrate this achievement and what you were able to organize, certainly. But are you already, if i may say, planning your next move? I mean, how do you top this?

SC: Absolutely. There's something, obviously, that just can't be replicated in playing against the greatest chess player of all time. That's a really, really special thing. And, of course, the course of the game and the participation and engagement makes it even more special. But we do want to try and find ways to at least raise the game in some different ways. And we've got some other matches for the world to participate in. They'll be coming out this year. The chess community can pay attention. We'll have more announcements in the future, and we think we are going to be able to raise the game in some different ways, even as special as this is.

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Sam. Thank you.

SC: Thank you so much, Nil. It's a pleasure.

CH: Sam Copeland is the head of community at chess.com, and a chess master. We reached him in Columbia, South Carolina.

[winding instrumental]

Trouple Robins

Guest: Debra Copeland

CH: Every spring Debra Copeland's front porch is home to a robin's nest. She knows exactly what to expect over the next few weeks: bright blue eggs are laid, the parents flutter anxiously around for a while, and then the sound of hungry chicks. But this year was different. Because an unusual family moved in. Ms. Copeland calls them the "Avian Sister Wives." We reached Ms. Copeland in St. Thomas, Ontario.

NK: Debra, how are the chicks and their parents doing right now?

DEBRA COPELAND: They're doing really great. I just checked on them and all the babies were sleeping peacefully.

NK: All of them. We're going to talk about the numbers in just a second, [chuckle] but let's go back to April. You notice the nest on your porch. This is something you've seen before. You're a lucky household that gets to see this. But when did you realize that this was going to be a bit different than in years past?

DC: Yes, I noticed very quickly that it was going to be different than before because I noticed that there were eight eggs. It took two days and there were eight eggs in the nest, which is very, very uncommon. And so, I put a camera up very quickly when I noticed there were eight eggs, so I could kind of keep an eye on things without bothering them too much. [NK chuckles] And to my great surprise, I found two female birds -- robins. Sitting on the nest together, incubating the eggs. They would sit one right on top of the other. And I was like, what? [chuckling]

NK: Yeah, I was wondering what you said in that moment? What would be an appropriate response? How quickly did you come up with the name for them?

DC: [chuckling] Yes. Oh, that was so interesting because I was so confused as to what was happening. I took to several Facebook groups to kind of ask, like, have you seen this? This is really weird. And a lot of the people were, like, commenting, no, no, I've never seen this. This is so funny. I wonder if they're sisters. And then, I don't know. There were some comments that said something about Sister Wives. And then, eventually, I was like, oh, it's the Avian Sister Wives. [both chuckle]

NK: And where was the dad in all of this?

DC: So, the dad keeps his distance while the eggs are incubating, so he kept us, like, wondering for about two weeks. We were like, oh, is there going to be a dad? And then, about two days before the first one hatched, we noticed a male come around. And we knew for sure because there were three robins sitting right at the nest together. And when the first of the first male came. The male bird looked like he was having, like, some sort of breakdown or crisis. [NK chuckles] And, like, what is happening? What's going on? He looked extraordinarily confused, and we all found that very funny. So yeah, I still don't know if there's two dads or one dad, but all the babies are being really well fed.

NK: Well, that's what's important. Did the Sister Wives, as you called them, there was a bit of friction in the beginning.

DC: Yes, at the very beginning, for the first maybe three or four days, they would peck at each other, and fight each other, and kind of jump on one another to try to get them to leave.

NK: Ladies!

DC: And you could tell they were not happy with each other at the beginning, trying to, you know, take over, like, this is my nest, these are my babies, you need to get out of here. But then slowly, after about three or three days, they started to really just calm down and settle into it, and almost seemed to kind of become friends.

NK: Well, that's heartwarming. Did that make you smile?

DC: Yeah, it honestly has been so fun checking in on them and seeing them sitting there snuggled up together all night long. Sometimes, I'll find them, like, leaning on each other, sitting on each other, or laying their head on one another. And sometimes, they'll, like, look right at each other. And it's just so adorable. And it just is very, very cool to see them come to really enjoy each other and seem to have a real genuine bond now.

NK: That's lovely. You talked about the research you were doing, and that people were telling you that this is pretty rare, polygamy in the robin family. But what else have you learned about why they decided to have this kind of setup -- shack up together, if you will.

DC: Yeah, it's very confusing. And several specialists have all said they're not really sure exactly what's going on there. And I don't think we'll ever know for sure why they ended up sharing a nest. But it is very, very unique and extremely fun and entertaining to watch. But yeah, we don't really know why. It could be that there's one dad, and they just ended up in the same nest, or it could be that one of them had a failed nest. We don't really know. And I think that's what surprises me so much is that they ended up sticking it out together. The two moms ended up, you know, they're just so stubborn and devoted to their babies that they wouldn't leave, even though normally they would, you know, be very territorial and kind of duke it out. And one would end up leaving. And so, it's just very neat because you can really see these moms have such a, they're just so devoted and very maternal to their young babies.

NK: And you shared this on your Facebook page, Backyard Bird Lovers, and people are feeling the way you are, just enamored of this really special family that they've built there. Are you prepared though for their eventual departure?

DC: Yes, that's a very good question. And I feel like I'm really excited for the babies to fly away, probably at the end of this week. Because I think that's what we're all rooting for. We're all rooting for a successful ending. And a successful end would be watching these moms and dad, or dads, care for their young ones and have them survive and then go off to live their own lives. So yeah, it will be sad to see them go, but it's really exciting because that's the goal. We really want them to succeed and then grow up and fly away and maybe come back next year.

NK: [chuckling] Debra, such a pleasure. Thank you for this.

DC: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Debra Copeland's porch is home to a robin throuple. We reached her in St. Thomas, Ontario.

[dancehall]

Semicolon Use

CH: Here's a well-known musical semicolon.

[Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen/classic rock]

CH: You know the rest. And this is probably the most famous semicolon in Canadian rock.

[2112 by Rush/classic Canadian rock]

CH: Rush, obviously. And the whole second side of Abbey Road is just semicolon after semicolon.

[She Came In Through the Bathroom Window by The Beatles/Brittpop]

CH: Now, I know what you're saying: "OK, boomer, but all of these songs are mass old, like you!" That's hurtful. But guess what: there are plenty of semicolons in today's music as well. Just for one example.

[TV Off by Kendrick Lamar/rap, hip-hop]

CH: That's TV Off by Kendrick Lamar. And a lot of people will call that a "beat switch" -- but what is a beat switch if not an aural semicolon? Please don't answer that. This whole thing is based on that dumb idea. Thanks. Meanwhile, though, on the page, the semicolon is apparently languishing. In the year 2000, a semicolon appeared every 205 words in English books, on average. And according to a new study, in the year 2025, a semicolon appears only once every 390 words. That's a steep decline in a useful piece of punctuation that indicates a pause joining two unrelated sentences; it's so unassuming that you may not have noticed the one I just used. But a follow-up study indicated that only 11 per cent of British students are "frequent users" of semicolons. And more than half the students who responded to a survey didn't know what a semicolon is even for. Now, if you want to talk about semicolons, we welcome your feedback: our Talkback line is 416-205-5687, and our email address is aih@cbc.ca. Let us know your thoughts. But at the risk of showing my bias, I am very much pro-semicolon. I mean, sometimes you need to pause, but an em-dash is too much, and a comma simply doesn't cut the...

KENDRICK LAMAR: MUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTAAAAAAARRRRRD.

[‘80s synthwave]

Part 2: Quebec Water Issues, Qatari Plane

Quebec Water Issues

Guest: Lucy Qalingo

CH: When the people of Puvirnituq turn on their taps, nothing comes out. A pipeline delivering water to the Nunavik community has been frozen since mid-March. And over the two months since, every aspect of life in the village has been affected. Patients at the local hospital have been flown south for care. Schools have closed early for the year. The mayor of Puvirnituq, Lucy Qalingo, has declared a state of emergency. And now, the Quebec minister of public security, François Bonnardel, has asked the Canadian Rangers for assistance. We reached Mayor Lucy Qalingo in Puvirnituq.

NK: Mayor, we know the public security minister in Quebec has asked for the Canadian Rangers to be sent to you to help with the distribution of water there. When is that slated to happen?

LUCY QALINGO: I haven't got the news yet, but we asked the Quebec government to deploy Canadian Rangers to help us out.

NK: You also declared a state of emergency after there was a fire on the weekend. Do you think that help would have come if you did not declare that state of the emergency?

LQ: We were kind of pretty sure that we would receive all kinds of help from everywhere, but we decided to declare an emergency because when the fire happened, we knew that we couldn't do things on our own. So, when the fire truck ran out of water, they had to go back to the water pumping station. And we knew then that this has to be noticed by the government.

NK: Do you feel that the response has been the kind of response you need and that it's come quickly enough?

LQ: We've been already receiving help from the Kativik Regional Government. And we've been receiving help from the Inuit Civic Hospital, our local CLSC. We are really satisfied with the response that we got, and the water was distributed to each household. And the message that we wanted to send out to the government is the money that is being funded for the municipal services in our region is not enough. We have tried to ask many times if it could be reviewed. But since this happened a lot of the times for many years that we become oppressed with the situation that we have to face every time when there's a water crisis, so we declared a state of emergency.

NK: So, you've been here before. What is it like day-to-day for people there? How are they coping?

LQ: Right now, some of the houses haven't received water yet. They've been receiving bottled water to drink. But for sanitary purposes, we're still having a hard time delivering to everyone because the weather has been very bad. We've been having blizzards. And the heavy equipment machinery that we work with, they're out of date now because they've been used for so many years, and we need to get new ones.

NK: What kinds of things are people doing beyond the bottled water to cope with everything that you need water for every single day?

LQ: Some households, they've been getting some snow outside and melting it and use it to flush their toilets. This is kind of a situation we are in right now. And they had to evacuate long-term care patients in our hospital. And they had to end the school year prematurely. They still had two weeks of schooling, but they had to end it because the weight that we've been carrying is trying to be lifted, so these are the kinds of decisions, big decisions, that had to be made in our community.

NK: When the Rangers arrive, what will they be able to do that you haven't been able to? How will they help?

LQ: As a community, we've been helping each other a lot, and it's very tiresome. Like, physically, mentally, and emotionally, it's been tiresome for everyone. And for the manpower, for distribution of the water, especially to those that are in high needs and elders, will be delivered. And for those who don't have transportation.

NK: How are you doing, Mayor?

LQ: I'm doing a lot better. Like, I was in a fatigue situation a few days ago because we've been having water problems for nine weeks now. And the help that we've be receiving as a community from our neighbouring communities as well have been weight-lifting. I'm just trying to do my best. It is my duty that everyone is okay.

NK: We should mention that no one was hurt in that fire over the weekend. But in terms of the damage and the cleanup, what's happening on that front?

LQ: No one was injured. Like I said, that we have used out of the resources we've been using. And were trying to do the best that we can. Right now, we have been left with two loaders, and trying to clean up. That site hasn't been able to be cleaned yet.

NK: You mentioned you've been here before, you've mentioned you have been pushing for change from the government, more permanent support with longer-lasting solutions. What specifically, if they're listening now, and they see this as a serious situation, what could they start doing right now that would prevent this kind of thing from happening next year?

LQ: Like, um, I'm not trying to pinpoint at anyone, like this has been going on for so many years. But we know that things can be changed. And this can be reviewed, and we don't want anything, anything bad to happen again. But as a region, we are hoping to be funded for the underground pipelines for water and sewage.

NK: This time around, this year, how much longer do you think this shortage will go on?

LQ: Um, the technical group are doing as best as they can. Um, that pipe that was frozen, uh, it's going to be still a long time, but with that flat temporary solution, we are hoping to get our water back maybe on Sunday, probably and hopefully.

NK: I hope so too, Mayor. I appreciate your time in the middle of all of this. Please take care.

LQ: Thank you so much, Nil.

CH: Lucy Qalingo is the mayor of Puvirnituq, and that's where we reached her.

[ambient]

Qatari Plane

Guest: Eric Lipton

CH: The president of the United States has called it "a very nice gesture" and a "GIFT, FREE OF CHARGE" - in all caps, of course. Critics call it a bribe. And now, an in-depth report in today's New York Times sheds light on how the nation of Qatar came to offer the President a lavishly customized 747 jet, estimated to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Eric Lipton of the paper's Washington bureau is one of the four-person reporting team behind today's story. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

NK: Eric, our listeners have likely heard a little bit about this plane already, but give them a sense of what it's all about. What about it might appeal to this U.S. president?

ERIC LIPTON: Well, I mean, Trump loves planes. He likes splashy, big planes that they're a symbol of power and of wealth. And he long has been obsessed with planes. And so, he loves to go to rallies and to show off his plane, to show himself exiting a plane. And it's just a part of his image. And he uses it to generate support among his followers. And so, the fact that he wanted a new plane, a modern plane, super luxurious plane, and also a plane that is entirely reliable and therefore was not going to disrupt his travel, these were all things that were on his mind from the moment he was re-elected and they were discussing early on. And even before he was sworn in for his second term, there were conversations about his frustration with the fact that the new Air Force Ones were not going to be ready. So, this is at the top of his mind. But when the Trump White House, the Department of Defense, and Boeing sort of surveyed the population of these planes across the world, there were eight of them they identified that they thought could potentially be acquired and converted and turned into an Air Force One with a certain speed. Although, it still would take, if you were to truly have a fully functional Air force One, it would take years and a massive amount of money because the plane is actually the cheap part of the whole thing. It's all of the work that once the plane is acquired that takes years and cost something like a billion dollars

NK: Donald Trump has characterized this as a gift he'd be a fool to turn down. From the reporting you and your colleagues have done on this, Eric, was this a case of Donald Trump's team pushing for this? Or did it come from Qatar that this should be a gift?

EL: I mean, clearly, the United States and the White House initiated this. We know that from various conversations that we had with people at the Department of Defense and at other locations. And they identified this plane as one of the planes that potentially could be acquired. And then, they contacted the government over there, or the government then heard that the United States was looking at that plane, and a conversation began. And what we do know as well is that initially the Air Force was working under the assumption that this plane would be purchased if it were to be added to the U.S. Fleet. But then at some point while the communications began between Qatar and the United States, it shifted from a purchase to a gift. And we know that Steve Witkoff, who is the Mideast advisor envoy to President Trump, who is also a current and former real estate executive, and has done business with the government of Qatar, and they purchased a hotel that he owned in New York City a couple years ago. And that it is Witkoff that had the communications with the senior government officials in Qatar. And, in fact, the prime minister recently said that he actually attended Witkoffs' son's wedding, and he considers him a friend. So, at some point during that conversation, it shifted from the United States buying the plane to it being donated. And then that raises questions as to whether or not, you know, is Qatar trying to influence the United State? Are they trying to influence Witkoff? Are they trying to influence Trump? I mean, Witkoff and Trump have a lot of power right now in terms of the resolution of the war in Gaza and the hostage returns. And Qatar is playing a really important role. It's more aligned with, you know, with Israel's opponents. And so, how the United States treats this, is that going to be affected by the potential gift of a plane? And that's, you know, is there a conflict of interest here? And these are questions that members of Congress are asking.

NK: And in terms of financial connections with Qatar, what about the Trump family?

EL: Yes, the Trump family as well. Just recently, Eric Trump was celebrating the fact that they have a new real estate deal in Qatar, and that there is a major hotel with villas and a golf course. That their partner is not just DarGlobal, which is a Saudi-affiliated real estate company, but also the government of Qatar itself is the backer of the project. So, that means that the Trump family is in business, effectively, with the government of Qatar. Steve Witkoff was a former business partner of the governor of Qatar. And now, the government of Qatar is talking about giving a $200 million 747 plane to the United States to benefit Donald Trump, while the United States has huge national security questions relative to Qatar because the U.S. has an air force base there that is the largest U. S. presence in the Middle East.

NK: And in terms of expense, Air Force One certainly is not cheap to operate, but your reporting also gets into the costs of what you were describing before, bringing in a plane like this and then maintaining it. How different would it be, if different at all, from maintaining Air Force One as we know Air Force One to be?

EL: Yeah, I mean, Air Force One is an extremely expensive platform to operate. So, say the plane costs maybe $150 to $200 million to buy or to be gifted. And then, it costs another billion dollars to upgrade it. But that's just the start. I mean the annual cost of operating that plane in terms of having a crew that's always available and doing the maintenance and the fuel, it's approximately $135 million a year. And so, it's not insignificant. I mean, you know, the Pentagon is almost a trillion dollars a year. But, you know, it is a significant additional cost. And that cost is not currently budgeted in the Pentagon's budget. So, there are two Air Force Ones, so that each of which are expected to cost about $135 million dollars a year to operate. So, this would be a third. And that money doesn't yet exist in the budget.

NK: There's been some bad headlines for Donald Trump in this, criticism from Republicans as well, and even, you know, figures in the MAGA world. Is there a chance, I mean, is this a done deal, or do you think Trump is going to back off from this?

EL: I don't expect Trump will back off, but it's not at all a done deal. The Republicans rarely question anything that Trump is doing in Congress. In this case, there have been questions from prominent Republicans. But it is not a done-deal. If it becomes such a significant political liability, maybe it won't happen. But I don't see, Trump really wants his new plane now. He likes new planes, luxurious things. He wants it, and I think he's determined to get it.

NK: Eric, I appreciate your time, thank you for this.

EL: Okay, thank you.

CH: Eric Lipton is a reporter with the New York Times' Washington, D.C. bureau. We reached him there.

[wistful instrumental]

FOA: Tribute To P00P

CH: On Friday night, the Philadelphia Phillies said goodbye to a legend. A staple of baseball in the city. A household name. P00P.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM MCCARTHY: Before we continue with this telecast, we have to address what is on everybody's minds and hearts. July 29th, 2022, our beloved scorebug first lit up the screens here with Philly's television. It was more than just a scoreboard. It was a legend, an unforgettable icon. Its name, once met with chuckles, quickly became synonymous with good times and fierce rivalries. As the final out arrives on its bright and brilliant run, it will be missed. Gone, but never forgotten.

CH: A somber Philadelphia Phillies broadcaster Tom McCarthy memorializing a truly beautiful sports moment on Friday night. As we told you on the show back in February, when the Philadelphia Phillies play their cross-state rival Pittsburgh Pirates and it's still zero-zero, the TV score graphic reads: P00P -- or P-zero-zero-P. As a result, every Phillies-Pirates matchup is dubbed a P00P game. Until now. NBC Sports Philadelphia has changed that graphic -- called a scorebug -- so that the Phillies acronym is now P-H-I. Which meant that on Friday, during the first Phillies-Pirates game of the season, the P00P game was no more. When NBC Sports Philadelphia first announced this in February, we called up Phillies super fan Jon McCann -- known as The Philly Captain -- to get his reaction.

SOUNDCLIP

JON MCCANN: You know, for the memes. It's a, it's a very big memable moment. But I don't, I don't think it's the end all be all of baseball. But we will lose our six chuckles every season [NK chuckles] when we play the Pittsburgh Pirates.

NK: And, obviously, there's a rivalry there. How much does that rivalry play into the popularity of the score bug?

JM: Oh, look, the good thing is the Pittsburgh Pirates are a pretty horrible organization. [NK chuckles] So, usually, we use the reference as a way to talk about Pittsburgh, that team, that organization, and also, sometimes the Phillies play like that. And when the Phillies are playing bad, we'll, yeah, we'll play our part as well.

NK: How are other fans reacting?

JM: You know, it is all over Phillies Twitter.

NK: Yeah.

JM: And everybody's talking about it. And it makes me feel like there is not enough news going on in the world. Because if this is a news story, it's just, it's a very viral thing, especially in Philadelphia.

NK: Yeah.

JM: And I think Pittsburgh plays along with it, too. It just, every time we play Pittsburgh, I can't tell you how many days, it goes on for weeks, even after the series. People, some people think they're very clever and they're the first one to notice this. [NK chuckles] IBut it's, it's, you know, it's the end of an era, I would say.

NK: Yeah, fans are passionate, obviously. And trash talk is, certainly, you're at the ready with it at all times. So, what are people going to do now?

JM: I will just, well, what I will do is make fun of Pittsburgh for having a cheap owner, and for having a team that barely makes the play, never makes the playoffs that often. I can't remember the last time they went on the World Series. And the fact that I'm saying this across the great nation of Canada brings me so much joy.

CH: From February, that was Nil's conversation with Phillies superfan Jon McCann, about the end of the TV score graphic P-zero-zero-P. Or P00P.

[ambient]

FTR: Khalil Grad Speech

CH: When Mohsen Mahdawi walked across the graduation stage at Columbia University yesterday, he did it without his classmate Mahmoud Khalil. Both men were among the pro-Palestinian student activists detained by the U.S. government over their activism. Mr. Mahdawi and others have been released -- but Mr. Khalil remains in an Immigration and Customs Enforcement facility in Louisiana. He's been there for more than 10 weeks. He was there last month when his wife Noor Abdalla gave birth to their first child, a boy named Deen. Yesterday, Ms. Abdalla held Deen in her arms as she walked across another stage -- at an alternative graduation ceremony held by the People's University for Palestine -- and accepted an honorary diploma on Mr. Khalil's behalf.

SOUNDCLIP

NOOR ABDALLA: Thank you for holding me in your hearts today. It has been two months since I was taken from my family and from you, detained simply for speaking the truth about Palestine. Columbia University, the place where we sought knowledge, justice, and truth, chose silence instead of solidarity. It failed me, but you didn't. You showed up, you reminded me that while institutions may abandon us, the people never will. Today, I want to say congratulations. You've made it through, perhaps not with degrees, but with your voices, your integrity, and your compassion intact. I'm endlessly proud to be among you, and I carry your love with me every day. Please keep carrying mine, and thank you all.

[clapping and cheering]

CH: For The Record, that was Noor Abdalla -- giving a speech on behalf of her husband Mahmoud Khalil, who remains in ICE custody in Louisiana.

[bright, slow piano]

Part 3: Haitians In DR, Romania Election

Ed Smylie Obit

CH: It was just over 55 years ago that Houston had a problem -- an explosion on the Apollo 13 spacecraft headed for the moon. And that was just the first of many problems NASA would have to contend with in order to get the astronauts home safely. Like this one.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: We have a situation brewing with the carbon dioxide. We had a CO2 filter problem on the lunar module. Five filters on the limb, which were meant for two guys for a day-and-a-half. So, I told the docking. You're already up to eight on the gages. Anything over 15 and you get impaired judgment, blackouts, the beginnings of brain asphyxia.

MAN #2: What about the scrubbers on the command module?

MAN: They take square cartridges. The ones on the limbs are round.

MAN #2: Tell me this isn't a government operation.

MAN: This just isn't the contingency we've remotely looked at. Those CO2 levels are going to be getting toxic.

MAN #2: Well, I suggest you gentlemen invent a way to put a square peg in a round hole.

CH: A scene from the movie Apollo 13 -- a fictional presentation of a very real problem. And among the NASA engineers tasked with solving that problem was Robert Smylie, who went by "Ed". And in case the tension wasn't high enough, he and his team would have to solve the problem using only materials already on board. Here's Mr. Smylie recalling that moment, years later, to his alma mater Mississippi State University.

SOUNDCLIP

ED SMYLIE: Every mission was a deep focus. You couldn't let your guard down. You couldn't allow a mistake to happen. Of course, on Apollo 13, we did have a mistake. It was a challenge getting them back, but we did. The lunar module had a round canister, and the command module had the square canister. So, you couldn't put the square canister in the round hole. When I got all my guys together to do this, we went through the stowage list and found out there was duct tape on board. If you're a southern boy, if it moves and it's not supposed to, you use duct tape.

CH: Yep, duct tape. Ed Smylie's solution -- which also involved some cardboard, a plastic bag and a hose from a space suit -- saved the day. And would go on to be cited often as the epitome of creativity under pressure. Mr. Smylie died late last month. He was 95 years old.

[lounge jazz]

Haitians In DR

Guest: Jhak Valcourt

CH: They're facing expulsion from a country that doesn't want them -- and a forced return to a country where they could be killed. The mayor of the border town of Dajabon, in the Dominican Republic, is physically removing people -- including children -- after issuing a five-day deadline for any undocumented Haitian residents to vacate their homes and return to Haiti. That move comes amid a country-wide operation to remove up to 10,000 undocumented Haitians per week from the Dominican Republic, ordered by President Luis Abinader, that began late last year. Amnesty International, and other NGOs, have said these expulsions violate both human rights and international law. Jhak Valcourt is a Haitian writer who's been living in the Dominican Republic for the past 13 years. We reached him in Santo Domingo.

NK: Jhak, as you know, Dajabon's mayor has been sharing photographs of removals, forcible removals, happening just this weekend. What do those pictures show?

JHAK VALCOURT: Racism, hatred, if I have to describe it with some words, and violation of human rights, you know? That's all it is, because there's no other way to describe it, I think.

NK: How did the situation get to this point?

JV: You know, there's a pretty good problem here with the economic state. And to just like hiding all that stuff, you know, the crimes is getting higher. So, to hiding that, so you have to use something just to distract, you know, that population. So, and the better way to do that, It's like using the migration issues. You know, it's not the only one who does that. So, every president does it, you know, in another way, or in a way or another.

NK: How do you experience what is happening there? I mean, what do people treat you like?

JV: I can say people treat me badly because I have some privilege. You know, I'm just like, everywhere I go, it's just like between artists and artists doesn't really have this point of view. You know, you can see the way people watching you, the way people talking to you. So, you can feel there's no welcoming. And I think that is worse for other people who don't really have the privilege that I have.

NK: And when you speak to other Haitians who are there, what do they tell you?

JV: So, they don't wanna be there. There's no Haitian who likes to be there, at least the politicians, guys, you know, they don't really mind because I'm here, you now, they can live here, they always running in a car, you know, that stuff doesn't affect them. But guys like us, I mean like me, like other guys who doesn't really have privilege like me. So, even artists, we don't really want to be here, you know, because we are not common. My mom is living here, and she always wants to get back. I know a lot of artist Haitians who are living here because they don't really have any other options.

NK: You've been detained before as well, what happened?

JV: Yeah, they just, like, jump me into a car, they bring me, they just, like, take me away from a place, a police place where they put, like, guys when they detain you. The ironic stuff is, like, when they detained me, you know, I had my paper; it was a copy of my paper. And they just said, okay, so I can't identify that your paper is true. So, we're going to take you away. And I was like, okay, so someone going to bring me my paper. And someone bring me, my paper, the original, and they just like, well, as we already take you, we can do nothing. You know, which is illegal. So, you should detain me because I had a copy of my paper. So, why you still keep me in this place with my original papers?

NK: How did that experience end for you? How did you get out?

JV: There's a lot of people in the media who knows me. I just, like, write some journalists, I just write some friends, and they just, like, call to immigration. But I think the issue is about that it's not being detained. You know, it's the frustration. It's the trauma after being detained. After that experience, you don't really have the feeling to want to get out to the street. You know, you just like, you don't really feel secure. And you have to looking for some help, you know, I mean, psychology help, because I'm getting out to the streets, it's not so easy. That couldn't, that can't be at the same way, you know?

NK: Given what you've described, you know, children being rounded up, pregnant women as well taken from hospitals and sent back to Haiti, the fact that documented and undocumented people are being targeted, though it's the undocumented as we understand it, that are being expelled from the country. You were able to stay. Do you think this is going to stop?

JV: No, I think it's going to be difficult because it's not just the government. It's a kind of hate, a kind of racism they just put into the Dominican heart or Dominican people mind. So, it's systemic racism, it is systemic hate. We're talking about Black and white. Having a neighbour who's Black, you know, just a few minutes away, it's frame disgusting. So, I don't want, so if I want to be, if I want to people see me like a white man, I don’t want to live next to Black people.

NK: What are you going to do if this situation isn't going to change and you're already frightened? What will you do?

JV: I just have a pen.

NK: You have a pen, yeah.

JV: That's what I've been doing, writing. So, some friends of mine just like activities, doing manifestations. So, my manifestation is anything I can do just like writing. So, that's all I can for now. Writing my pain, writing my depressions, writing what I feel. So, writing for support Haitian people, and writing to change the Dominican people mind.

NK: Jhak, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this. Please take care.

JV: Thank you for inviting me.

CH: That was Jhak Valcourt, a Haitian writer and translator living in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic.

[eerie instrumental]

FOA: Boom Boom

CH: Boom Boom stands seven metres tall -- his long, graceful neck extending skyward, his elegant tail pointing toward the earth. If you look deeply into Boom Boom, you will see yourself. Because Boom Boom is made of reflective stainless steel. He's a gleaming reflective statue of a dinosaur -- recently installed in a public sculpture park on New Zealand's North Island. But public opinion is split on the whole Boom Boom experience: some local wags have dubbed it more of an "eyesaur" than a dinosaur, while others celebrate a welcome injection of fabulosity into paleontological statuary that Boom Boom brings. This kind of debate is nothing new for Gregor Kregar, the sculptor who created the piece. Nil spoke to him in 2023, on the occasion of the relocation of another of his sculptures in Melbourne, Australia -- this one a nine-meter tall reflective garden gnome officially called Reflective Lullaby -- but known to fans as "The Chrome Gnome".

SOUNDCLIP

NK: How did people in Melbourne receive the Chrome Gnome over the years it was, it was there?

GK: It was quite interesting. You know, one of the lovely things was that happened straightaway was that people start bringing little gnomes to the large gnomes sort of thing. [NK chuckles] So, in the space of about a week was, probably there was about 50 sort of little ceramic and concrete and plastic kind of gnomes that were positioned at the feet of this large gnome.

NK: Like a shrine?

GK: It was quite a, yeah, it's kind of like a shrine, you know? And there was lots of people that visited it and so on, which was really good and welcomed. But on the other side, because this location was by the motorway, it's not really public kind of space that people were encouraged to walk to. So, sudden freeway motorway authority was a little bit nervous about that. So, that's why they removed all the little gnomes, yeah.

NK: Awe! The gnome was also decorated in, in different ways as well, right? [chuckling]

GK: Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm not based in Melbourne. I'm actually a three-hour flight away in New Zealand -- in Auckland. But I did see some photographs that, you know, people kind of sometimes dress him a little bit and, yeah.

NK: Sports jerseys.

GK: Kind of.

NK: Christmas decorations.

GK: Apparently, yeah. Sport jerseys, and yeah. Even a little phallus.

NK: Phallus. Yeah, just making sure everyone heard that, yeah.

GK: [laughing] Apparently, somebody made it.

NK: Shameless.

GK: Apparently, somebody made a little phallus that they stick on as well.

NK: Tinfoil, I heard, correct?

GK: Yeah, tinfoil. Yeah. Yeah.

NK: Did you, did, you know, as, as an artist, did you expect that sort of interaction? And how does that sit with you that people were, were having so much fun with it?

GK: I mean, I think that, you know, sometimes it's hard to know exactly what to expect, and people react in many different ways. But I suppose that, for me, it's, it's good that people react rather than ignore the work, you know? And most of these reactions were obviously really positive. But, yeah, sometimes it's hard to control. Maybe, you know, some students might have a couple of drinks too many, and then they might steal the gnome. [NK laughs] And, but for me, it's kind of interesting how you know also gnome on that scale has a kind of interesting reference to maybe even the social realist monuments of Eastern Europe. But, in this case, you know, he's sort of just a thinking gnome that overlooks the surrounding environment.

CH: From Our Archives, that was part of Nil's conversation with sculptor Gregor Kregar, from 2023.

[chiptune]

Denzel Retirement

CH: On November 14th, 2024, Denzel Washington sent the world into a tailspin. You remember that date. It's when he was doing press for Gladiator II, and he listed his next few projects -- and then said he'd probably retire. We all freaked out. And our panic wasn't helped by headlines like "Denzel Washington says he has 'not that many films left,'" "Denzel Washington details a retirement path," "Denzel Washington says he will retire from acting...". Et cetera. So, the very next day, he set the record straight.

SOUNDCLIP

DENZEL WASHINGTON: It's not over. Let them know it's not over. You can just click bait, bill, got you, hit you, and say I was retiring, I'm not retiring tomorrow, I said I have all these films to do. And then, I want to get behind the camera, which is going to take a year, or two, or three. So do the math, even if I did one a year, I think I mentioned five or six films, even I did one a year, which it won't be, but even if I did, that was six years, and I'm 70 in a month, that's 76. If I direct a movie after that, that is two to three years. That's 79. You don't want an Equalizer who's 79, 80 years old. You don't want that. I don't what that.

CH: Denzel Washington speaking with Yahoo U.K. in November. Whew, we could relax. No more trying to imagine cinema without Denzel; no more worrying about how many more Equalizer movies there will be, even though we don't know how many there have already been. Until director and frequent Denzel collaborator Spike Lee said this, while talking about their new film at the Cannes Film Festival.

SOUNDCLIP

SPIKE LEE: You know, I reached out to Denzel to do Mo' Better. So, this is the fifth film. It's in order, Mo' Better, Malcolm X, He Got Game, and Inside Man. And it's been a blessing to have this body of work of us doing films that the people love. And I think, I don't know if we're going to do anything. I think this is it, five. He's been talking about retirement. So, even though he just did another, another deal. [laughter] I thought you was going to be retired, Denzel?! So, what's up, G?!

CH: So, that's it? No more Spike Lee-Denzel collabs. And Denzel's retirement -- somewhat imminent. Cue the new headlines: "Spike Lee says Highest 2 Lowest is his last film with Denzel Washington." and "Spike Lee drops bombshell about his future collaboration with Denzel Washington." To be fair, headlines, Spike Lee also doesn't seem 100 per cent certain that Denzel will retire. And why would he: Denzel doesn't even seem sure that Denzel will retire.

SOUNDCLIP

DENZEL WASHINGTON: What now? What? You ‘gonna shoot me?

CH: Well, no. Obviously, I'm not going to shoot you, Denzel. But 'what now' indeed! As it turns out, not even Denzel knows.

[lounge jazz]

Romania Election

Guest: Iulian Bulai

CH: On Sunday, Nicusor Dan was elected president of Romania. And when he took to the podium in the wee hours of yesterday morning, the focus quickly shifted from the celebratory present to the challenges of the future.

SOUNDCLIP

NICUSOR DAN: [speaking: Romanian]

TRANSLATION: This is your victory! [cheering and clapping] It's the victory of thousands of people who campaigned over many weeks, and who believed that Romania could change for the better. Never forget the strength you have shown, because there are challenges ahead we will have to tackle together.

CH: His election follows a tumultuous year for the country. In early 2024, the results of a previous presidential ballot were annulled over alleged Russian meddling. And in January, this election was postponed. Now that it's finally occurred, Mr. Dan's victory is being celebrated as a win for pro-European forces within Romania -- and a blow to the country's far-right and Mr. Dan's challenger, George Simion. Nicusor Dan ran as an independent, but the mathematician-turned-mayor-turned-president did so with the backing of the centre-right Save Romania Union -- or USR -- party, which he helped found. Iulian Bulai is a member of the USR. He's also the co-chair of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. We reached him earlier today.

NK: Iulian, I wonder what was going through your mind as you listened to Nicusor Dan's victory speech early yesterday morning?

IULIAN BULAI: Well, I was so happy. Nicusor Dan, he is the founding president of USR, my party. But beyond that, he is the first-ever elected president of Romania that was not officially a member of a party, but run as independent. And, of course, there were several public actors supporting him, including my party, several small parties, civil society, very famous public persons. But it's the victory of an independent, the current mayor of Bucharest. I was extremely happy because that was a confirmation that the future of Romania will be within the EU with respect for democracy, human rights, and a Romania within the European Union, not outside of it.

NK: So, it didn't disappoint you, it sounds like at all, that he ran as an independent and not as a member of your party.

IB: Well, the thing is that the president of our party, she wrote history last year in December. She made it in the second round, and it's been her and another lunatic obscure candidate who made it to the second-round, and then the elections had been canceled. So, we were very happy for our party candidate then, but she would not grow in the polls at all. And then, we had to take the decision of withdrawing the support in order to have least one progressive reformist liberal candidate making it to the second round. So, of course, that was a bit bitter, but at least we have saved the country. That is huge. It was just, it was a matter of us choosing to be an actor within European Union, or just question our democracy and rather be aligned with powers that have different values than ours, like Russia.

NK: I'll just underline what you said there. This was about saving the country, in your view.

IB: Well, we wrote history as a generation, and he wrote history as a person. And it's the first time, imagine this, in 35 years that no candidate from the former Communist Party does make it to the second round. That's huge. And many, many Romanian regard the last Sunday election as a referendum, a reconfirmation of our European belonging. So, that's something huge. It's Nicusor Dan's merit, and that's the glory of our generation with aspirations for democracy, human rights, and a future in European Union, not the way of nationalism, isolationism, or other movements that would rather be friendly with narratives of our enemies.

NK: Nicusor Dan was trailing George Simion, his opponent on the right, as you know, by about 20 per cent after the first ballot. What do you think is the reason for this reversal?

IB: Well, all the people who own critical thinking and are quite decent in Romania, they've chosen him. Regardless of the small nuances of values, most of the people thought that he is the correct compromise in order to have a democratic future of the country. So, this is how he has united more than 50 per cent of those who showed up to vote. So, in this way, he's gathered people that would naturally not have been in the same electoral option. So, he created a unification of all the pro-European democratic forces in Romania.

NK: There are supporters still, of course, of George Simion who argue that the right would have won if the country's constitutional court had not annulled the results of last year's election and then barred its winner, Georgescu, from being on the ballot. What do you say to them?

IB: We cannot reverse history. It's just impossible. It could have been as well a winner on our side. Our former president of the party, Anna Lasconi, who made it last year, she could have been the winner, too. So, it's just a game of speculations that we do not go into. We understand their frustration. They are furious with the political establishment in Romania, but the solutions the extreme-right, ultra-conservative candidate would propose for Romanians, they're not just feasible at all. So, we understand their frustration. Nicosur Dan does understand their frustration. He stretched a hand towards them, but with solutions within our European Union structures, not outside.

NK: At the same time, there are many supporters of Simion and Gheorghescu before him, whether you or others agree with them or not, they have a lot of support. Why were they able to galvanize that kind of support?

IB: Well, you're very correct. I do not deny that support. That is very correct. But if you combine people with options of no media literacy that are supporters of conspiracy theories, that have been manipulated by the war narratives, and by no strong critical media in the country, most of them using TikTok, then you get a very huge amount of people thinking like that. And they're not to be judged. They're just to be told that, look, your way is not the right way in terms of solution. But they should be hurt, and their pain should be accepted.

NK: How much of this victory do you believe may have to do with what happened in the United States and Donald Trump's victory in the presidential elections there?

IB: It's very hard to speculate and to compare. But I think our victory, it's a reaction of some world leaders thinking international relations, international politics like business transactions. And we do not want to be a country being transaction to Russia. So, I think it's a reaction to the fear of being part of a game of transactions where we would lose our current direction.

NK: Specifically, Iulian, what do you think your new president will have to do? What's on your checklist to try to address, you know, not just what people who support him want to see, but also the people who were supporting Simion?

IB: He has to deliver the results that he's engaged himself to do, he has to do reforms, he has to point the prime minister to create the government, and he has to create solutions that people believe in and have an impact on their daily life. So, I think that's what he has to do. Improve our economics and create trust and build up the social peace that has been affected in the past months.

NK: I'm very glad we could speak, Iulian. Thank you for your time.

IB: Thank you so much. Bye-bye.

CH: Iulian Bulai is the co-chair of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe -- and a supporter of newly elected Romanian president, Nicusor Dan.

[chiptune]

Elton John AI

CH: Keir Starmer's government is facing some powerful obstacles in passing legislation that would allow AI firms in the UK to use copyright-protected work freely, unless the copyright holders actively object. The House of Lords has rejected the bill for a second time -- with critics saying "Silicon Valley has persuaded the government that it's easier for them to redefine theft than make them pay for what they have stolen." Elton John is among those who are royally upset about the government's stance. He made that clear in an appearance on the BBC's Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg. Here's how Sir Elton responded when asked what it will mean if the plans ultimately do go ahead.

SOUNDCLIP

ELTON JOHN: Well, they'd be committing theft, thievery on the highest scale. It's criminal, and I feel incredibly betrayed. The House of Lords did a vote, and it was more than two to one in our favour. The government just looked at it as if to say, well, the old people, you know, the old like me can afford it. That's not what we're complaining about. We're complaining about people's legacy, whether they're young songwriters, whether they are young playwrights, journalists, whatever. When they're creative, and it comes from the human soul, and not a machine, because a machine isn't capable of writing anything with any soul in it. If you've got to get rid of that and you've gotta rob young people of their legacy and their income, it's a criminal offence, I think. I think the government are just being absolute losers. And I'm very angry about it, as you can tell. Big tech has so much money. And if you're a young person and you're fighting big tech, good luck. I want the government to see sense. I want it to come back on our side. Because if they don't, I'm going to feel like a suffragette. You know, the derby's coming up soon, right? It's just, but it's really disrespectful, it's really disheartening. I supported the government. I did a thing for them at St. Paul's Cathedral, when Keir Starmer said I want to help young people in the music business. I want to support them. Well, he's not doing that. And I did that show, and I did it because I believed, but I'm not believing so much now.

LAURA KUENSSBERG: And if the government continues to stick their fingers in their ears, what are you prepared to do? I mean, you said it was the derby coming up, but are you, not just --

EJ: Well, we'll fight all the way, Laura. I mean, if it takes going to the court or whatever, we will fight this. And the government are being so stupid. I don't know who the tech minister is, what's his name?

LK: Peter Kyle.

EJ: Yeah. Well, he's a bit of a moron, sorry.

CH: Elton John sharing his opinion about the U.K. government's plan to allow AI firms to access copyrighted material without permission, on the BBC's Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg this weekend.

The AIH Transcript For May 20, 2025

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