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The AIH transcript for May 21, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Dome luck. Donald Trump has big plans for the "Golden Dome" and he says Canada wants in. Former Defence Minister David Pratt tells us, in his view, it actually is about time Canada made a move on missile defence.

CH: Pedal to the metal. Canada has never had a successful domestic car company of its own -- but one industry leader says it's past time to take the idea for a test drive.

NK: Peaking too early. Climbers summited Everest today using a new method that allowed them to do it in days, instead of the usual weeks. A veteran mountaineer tells us, the challenge is the point.

CH: Fiction is stranger than truth. The Chicago Sun-Times is called out for a "summer reading" list that includes novels that don't exist -- generated, it may not surprise you, by AI.

NK: Cottage industry. A woman looking to sell her country home in Ireland tells us why she decided to go with the raffle approach -- in which the winner gets that home and the acres around it -- for an investment [chuckle] of just about nine bucks.

CH: And...all that glitters is definitely not gold. Water voles are endangered in Wales -- but by feeding them sparkles [NK chuckles] so they poop out sparkles, scientists see a glimmer of hope.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday Edition. Radio that assures you the sparkles are safe -- so it's no-harm dung.

[theme]

Part 1: ‘Golden Dome’, Everest Xenon Climb, Irish House Lottery

‘Golden Dome’

Guest: David Pratt

CH: When he returned to office in January, U.S. President Donald Trump promised a brand-new missile-defence program. And now, he's got a name for it. Yesterday afternoon, President Trump announced plans for the "Golden Dome" defence system -- a multi-billion-dollar project he says will protect the country by shooting down missiles. And he says he's not the only one interested in it.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Canada has called us, and they want to be a part of it. So, we'll be talking to them. They want to have protection also. So, as usual, we help Canada; do the best we can.

CH: U.S. President Donald Trump in the Oval Office yesterday. Shortly after that announcement, Prime Minister Mark Carney's office confirmed that the federal government is in talks with the U.S. about participating in the system. It's not the first time Canada has weighed such a collaboration. In 2005, Liberal Prime Minister Paul Martin declined to participate in the U.S. missile defence program. At the time, David Pratt was his minister of national defence. Now, he's a defence consultant for several companies, none of which are currently involved in the Golden Dome plans. We reached David Pratt in Ottawa.

NK: David Pratt, in declining, Paul Martin -- the prime minister at the time -- said that the government would make the decision when it is in Canada's interest to do so. It appears at this stage that Prime Minister Carney is interested. Is it in Canada’s interest now?

DAVID PRATT: I believe it certainly is. I think this has been a sore point in terms of relations between Canada and the U.S. For a number of years, we haven't been part of missile defence. And I think it's the right thing for Prime Minister Carney to be talking to the Americans about this, and getting information and understanding what's being contemplated, what the potential costs are, what Canada's responsibilities might be. So, I think it's high time we move forward on this.

NK: Canada has been participating in NORAD, as you well know, since 1958. As our colleague Alex Panetta wrote in his online piece, too, the refusal 20 years ago meant that Canada can monitor the skies, but not participate in decisions about when to launch a potential strike if there was an incoming threat. I know we're still waiting for so many details about what this Golden Dome would be able to do, but what's your sense of what it would allow us to do if we took part that we don't with NORAD already?

DP: Well, first of all, I think what President Trump has talked about is very, very ambitious in terms of the capability of this system. And I'm not sure, frankly, that the Americans can afford it in the first place. But I think part of the reason why the prime minister and the government might be interested in talking to the Americans about this is to really find out what is being contemplated. Because, you know, we've been out of the loop in terms of interception and the interdiction of missiles since 2005. And it's resulted in a disjointed command structure for NORAD. And so, I think this is, it's time to correct this.

NK: In terms of timing and Canada's interests, given what we've been experiencing with this administration in the United States, the state of the relationship between our two countries, yes, it may be getting on a better footing since Prime Minister Carney's face-to-face with Donald Trump not so long ago, but is this the right time for this kind of partnership?

DP: I don't think we have much choice in terms of the timing. Certainly, President Trump has said a lot of things that cause a lot of concern and even anger amongst Canadians. But I think we have to keep in mind as well that the relationship -- the defence relationship with the United States -- dates back before the Second World War. And whatever we agree to will presumably be in place for many, many years to come. So, as I say, I think the government's doing the right thing in terms of the engaging in these negotiations. And I think we have to take the Americans, we have to deal with them in good faith.

NK: If you were part of the government -- if you were minister of national defence right now -- what would be on your list? What should Canada be asking for, in your view, or advocating for, making sure it gets if it does sign on to something like this, to make sure we are getting a good deal? Because it might be hard for people to get their minds around trusting the U.S. administration at this stage.

DP: Well, when I was minister of national defence in 2004, we got to the point of sending a letter, I sent a letter to Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, and just simply saying, we want to talk. And I think that's what's necessary at this point, to understand what the Americans have contemplated. Making sure that we are a full partner and that we have responsibility for our own sovereignty is tremendously important here. That we're not, you know, undermining our own role in terms of the protection of Canada and the defence of Canadian citizens.

NK: China -- perhaps not surprisingly -- has weighed in, saying it is, quote, seriously concerned about this plan. Saying that it would create a space arms race and hurt the global strategic balance. Are those questions that are in your mind? Should Canada be concerned about those things?

DP: Well, Canada has taken a role in terms of arms control going back many, many years. And what we've seen as well, and this was plain in 2004, this was 20 years ago as well, the threats were evolving. Even back in 2004, the North Koreans were developing new missiles, the Iranians were developing new missile, the Russians -- back at the time -- they had significant missile technology as well. And the Chinese were catching up. We're in a situation now where we have to deal with the threats that are out there now. It's really debatable as to whether or not this is going to upset any kind of strategic balance because I think it's all about keeping up with the current threats and, you know, protecting the continent under those circumstances.

NK: Last month, you and another former defence minister, Conservative Peter McKay, wrote a piece in the National Post -- an opinion piece -- both of you advocating for more defence spending, saying it needed to be a focus for Mark Carney's government. Is this exactly the kind of thing you had in mind?

DP: Well, you know, I think what we were suggesting as well was a foreign and defence policy review, which I think is tremendously important. And I'm hoping that the new government will look at that. Because I think the previous policy that we had in place -- Strong, Secure, and Engaged -- has become somewhat irrelevant. And if the U.S. is backing away from NATO, then Canada's likely going to have to step up. And what that means for Canadian defence spending is probably significant in terms of boosting our budget. So, an integrated air and missile defence system will probably certainly come up. I think it has to be dealt with as part of a series of priorities that the Defence Department has.

NK: David Pratt, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

DP: Thank you.

CH: David Pratt is a former minister of national defence of Canada. We reached him in Ottawa. We requested an interview with the current minister of defence, David McGuinty, but we have not heard back.

[hip-hop]

Everest Xenon Climb

Guest: Alan Arnette

CH: Mountaineers call it "the death zone": an altitude above 8,000 meters -- where there's far less available oxygen than at sea level. Reaching the death zone on Mount Everest usually takes weeks of acclimatization; a long and dangerous process of partial runs up and down from base camp, before moving on to climb to the summit. But this morning, a team made it to the summit without stopping to adjust themselves to the atmosphere, using a brand-new technique. And they did it in just five days, thanks to a process that simulates high-altitude oxygen levels, by exposing the climbers to Xenon gas in specially-made sleeping tents, long before the actual climb. The method may be the brain-child of Lukas Furtenbach, who's an experienced and respected Everest guide, but it's still dividing the climbing community. Alan Arnette has climbed Everest four times -- and climbed to altitudes over 6,000 meters more than a dozen times. He documents Everest news on his website, alanarnette.com. We reached him in Fort Collins, Colorado.

NK: Alan, the fact that these climbers made it to the summit this morning without acclimatizing in the usual way, did you see that coming? Were you surprised by it?

ALAN ARNETTE: You know, I think there's been a trend for a long time to shorten the summits of Everest. You know, traditionally, it took April and May, about two months to climate, eight weeks. When I summited in 2011, that was my schedule. And slowly but surely, they cut time off using different techniques including now Xenon.

NK: You have done this, as you've said, you've climbed these heights. When you're first acclimatizing to being at those altitudes without the aid of something like Xenon, what does it feel like?

AA: It hurts. It's like climbing a set of stairs and holding your breath for nine out of 10 steps. The breathing is very difficult. You know, it's a process. It's difficult.

NK: Why do you like this kind of suffering, Alan? [both chuckle]

AA: You know, I get that question a lot. And I had a hard time answering it for a long time. But eventually, after 38 major expeditions around the world, what I realized was that every time I went through this process, I came home a better version of myself. And I hope that that better version allows me to be a more positive contributor to humanity.

NK: This version of the climb using Xenon's help, [chuckle] how are folks in the climbing community reacting to this?

AA: You know, it's mixed. You know, there's always the purest in any community -- whether it's in, you know, sailing, or marathons, or whatever it is -- that is against any type of aid. And climbing is no different. There are people that criticize people like me for going on a commercial expedition using supplemental oxygen, using a sherpa, or even using boots. [chuckling] But then there's others that are like me that say, you know, this is a sport that has no rules, there's no trophies, there are no rewards, it's really an individual endeavor. And so, if someone wants to use Xenon, or Helium, or whatever they want to use, who am I to judge them?

NK: Do you think, based on what you know, that this really does have the potential to change how people climb Everest?

AA: You know, I think the answer -- the clear answer -- is that we don't know. There were many factors that went into this climb. First off, these guys were all ex-military, U.K. Gurkhas. They were in outstanding, amazing physical shape. They had slept in these hypoxy tents for two months before they went. They used supplemental oxygen. So, you know, there was a lot they did to help them make this work Now, whether they could have done it with or without Xenon, I don't know.

NK: Yeah, they also paid a lot of money.

AA: Yeah. They paid $150,000 to climb it, yeah. And the median price this year, 2025, is about $45,000. So, it's three times as much.

NK: The organizer has suggested that cutting out the longer acclimatization period could ultimately make this kind of adventure safer by eliminating the need to climb up and down to base camp to prepare for summiting in the end. What do you make of that? Do you think this could be safer in the long run?

AA: Absolutely. You know, anytime you spend less time on a mountain, then you reduce the risk of objective danger of, you know, rockfall and avalanches and getting sick. So, the shorter is the better, but I think that misses the point. For me, and for many other people, going on a big climb like an Everest or a K2 is all about the experiences. It's about the journey. It's about the suffering that you do, you know, that I mentioned earlier that allows me to come home a better version of myself. So, you know, I understand the safety argument. But, for me, it's all about the journey and it's not about just bagging a summit and coming back home quickly.

NK: And then there's the environmental aspect, the crowding that we've reported on in the past, in addition to what we talked about. I wonder as well, if there's a worry -- if you're worried, or others that you've spoken to -- that those who have that kind of money and that desire for adventure, less so a desire for the suffering that you and others feel, should come with this kind of trek? That it might actually lead to people thinking there are shortcuts, and it could have horrible consequences in the end. That people who aren't prepared, really, to do this are gonna try to.

AA: You know, the American mountaineer Ed Viesturs, who became the only American to summit all 14 of the 8,000-metre mountains without using supplemental oxygen, coined a phrase, there's no shortcuts to the top. And so, I think that goes to the heart of this, that certainly there's a risk that this type of publicity from the guy who did it in three days or the team that did it five days that people will say, okay, now I can go climb it the same way I climb Mont Blanc or any other mountain around the world in a short period of time. The difference is that at 29,000 feet, I mean, at that altitude, that's where airplanes fly. So, it's not that everybody can go climb these things, and not everybody's going to have access to doing Xenon. First off, if it's used improperly, it can be a dangerous gas, even though it's used for anesthesia. But under doctor's supervision, as this team has shown, that is an effective way. Now, whether that was the factor that caused them to climb, as I said earlier, I'm not really sure. But I think there's a risk that people will take any type of way to have a shortcut all the way from, you know, using supplemental oxygen, to, you know, pre-acclimatizing, to using these other aids. They're 'gonna to jump to the conclusion that, oh, I can do it, too. And that may be a deadly mistake.

NK: You've done it the quote-unquote right way, the way you believe it should be done in the past, reaching the summit. Would you, for research purposes, or understand where the industry is going, or the community is going, would you try Xenon gas and give it a shot this way?

AA: No, absolutely not. You know, I don't think that, I just, I really believe that is an experience that should be taken slowly and savored and not to be rushed. I think you missed the whole benefit of going to a different country, enjoying the culture, learning about new people, learning about yourself, bonding with your teammates and those other people that are climbing with you, and enjoying the benefits of really suffering and going through this. Now, I know that sounds strange. But, to me, that's all part of the expedition. And cutting it short, I think it misses the point. I'm just not a fan.

NK: A pleasure to speak with you. Thanks for this, Alan.

AA: Sure thing. Thank you. Appreciate the call.

CH: We reached mountaineer Alan Arnette in Fort Collins, Colorado.

[heist music]

Irish House Lottery

Guest: Imelda Collins

CH: Trying to buy a house can feel a lot like trying to win a lottery. Which, as anyone who's tried to win a lottery knows, it doesn't usually work that well. You finally find a place that you both like and can afford, and then someone else buys it. That happens repeatedly. Then you start bidding on places that you don't like and can't afford, only to lose them to other people in the same boat. Sometimes it feels like the lottery actually has better odds. Well, a woman in Ireland has decided to make the sale of her home an actual lottery. She's asking people from all over the world to enter a raffle for the chance to win the cottage, located in the Irish countryside. And there are only a few hours left to go. We reached Imelda Collins in that home near Sligo, Ireland.

NK: Not long now, Imelda. Tomorrow the winning ticket is going to be drawn. How many tickets have you sold so far?

IMELDA COLLINS: Since my raffle was featured in the New York Times yesterday, my ticket sales have soared. So, I am very, very, very near to my goal.

NK: What is your goal?

IC: So, my goal is 150,000 tickets, yeah.

NK: And so, I was gonna ask if, you know, based on what you paid for it, and the upgrades you made, whether this was a risk that you might not make back the money that you spent on this house?

IC: Absolutely.You invest money in it and you've no idea what you're going to make back or how many tickets are going to sell. So, it was a risk.

NK: Why did you want to take that? You could have called up a realtor, right, near Sligo and asked them to put it on the market.

IC: That's it. That would have been a lot easier. [both laugh]

NK: Maybe a little less fun.

IC: But the raffle idea came from an article that I read online about a lady living in Dublin who was moving to Paris and she decided to raffle her apartment. She also mentioned that it would be nice to give somebody an apartment in Dublin for the price of a coffee or whatever way she put it. And, of course, if my raffle is successful, in the end, I would hope to make more money than had I sold it on the open market. But again, no guarantees. I could have ended up losing money, you know, but I won't know anyway until tomorrow, until it's all over.

NK: Yeah. And is there a minimum number of tickets that have to be sold, right? If it doesn't hit that minimum, then the winner just gets some of the money, right, not the property?

IC: Yes. So, if it doesn't hit the minimum, which is 150,000 tickets, the winner gets 50 per cent of the ticket proceeds, Raffall gets their 10 per cent commission, and I get the rest and I keep my house. And, of course, if I reach my target, the winner gets the home. If I get close to my target, I may decide, do you know what? I'm very close to the 1,500. I'll give the house anyway. So, there's kind of three scenarios.

NK: A ticket costs about $9 Cdn. How did you decide on that price?

IC: So, I looked at previous raffles. And five pounds was, actually, the figure that Raffall encouraged me to go with because they said everybody can afford five pounds.

NK: You call this place Butterfly Cottage, which sounds beautiful, and the photos are quite lovely as well. Can you describe what it's like?

IC: It's very, very colorful. And there's a nature theme throughout the cottage, you know, from the wallpaper, the curtains, you know, the bedding, everything.

NK: And you're including all the furniture as well. Why did you decide to do that?

IC: Because I just thought for the winner, it would be just nice for them to get, you know, everything. They can step into a new home. I will pay their legal fees. I'll pay their stamp duty. They won't have to pay anything. And they want to purchase anything because everything is there.

NK: Is it hard to sell a house in Ireland? I mean, you know, why do you think people are going this route?

IC: Oh, not at all. So, I suppose it's just an alternative way of, like I mentioned, I will hopefully make some money out of it. I should do if it succeeds. You know, maybe somebody is interested in trying a different way of selling a home. So, it has become quite popular here in Ireland, yeah.

NK: And how long have you lived in Butterfly Cottage?

IC: I moved in in November '22. So, what's that? Over two years, two-and-a-half years.

NK: Almost three years. And you put a lot of work into it, and love, it sounds like.

IC: A huge amount. So, when I purchased it, it needed gutting. It needed a complete renovation. So, I did that, and then complete redecoration as well.

NK: Was it always the goal to live in for a bit, fix it up, and sell it? Or flip it as people might say.

IC: No, it wasn't actually. So, my story is that I used to live in Italy. My husband is there. And, of course, as you can imagine, him being from Italy, me being from Ireland, you know, you're kind of, will we live there? Will we live here? Over the years, we lived in both countries. And it was, I suppose, the plan perhaps to move back permanently to Ireland. But I've realized you can't really make long-term plans anyway.

NK: It's true.

IC: So, my home is in Italy. I love Italy. And, as I say, I've got family there -- my husband and his family.

NK: What do they think about this strategy?

IC: Well, initially, my husband was like, he thought I was crazy, to be quite honest. [both laugh] So, I convinced him because it's unheard of, really, in Italy, perhaps in Canada and America, it's heard of as well. But it's not unheard here. So, I assured him I'd done all the research. I wasn't jumping into it. I brought him 'round after a while. So, he's delighted now with it. [both chuckle]

NK: I bet, especially as he hears about the ticket sales

IC: I know, yeah.

NK: Is it going to be hard to leave though, Imelda, even though you did all the research you were ready, but still hard in the end?

IC: It will. It'll be very hard. There last week, I was waiting for some swallows to build a nest on my gable wall. They started one day, and I was so excited. And they haven't completed it, so I don't know what they're up to. But, like, I see rabbits sometimes in the garden. I actually have, like, a robin that eats from my hand. And so, I've had some really special experiences with nature that I haven't had for years. So, yeah, it'll be hard to leave because I love nature so much. I keep repeating that, but -- [both chuckle]

NK: Well, I can see that. You can see how beautiful it is. So, I can understand that. What's your dream winner? Who is your dream winner?

IC: Well, somebody, the dream winner would be somebody that can't afford a house, or somebody that is struggling to get on the property ladder, which I'm sure a lot of people are. So really, that would be, it would be lovely for somebody who can't afford a home to win.

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Imelda. Thank you.

IC: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you.

CH: Imelda Collins is raffling off her cottage in Ireland. We reached her there, near Sligo.

[disco]

Glitter Voles

CH: The sound of a hungry water vole nibbling vegetation.

SOUNDCLIP

[vole nibbling]

CH: The sound of an angry water vole squeaking.

SOUNDCLIP

[vole squeaking]

CH: And the sound of a regular water vole's feces sparkling.

SOUNDCLIP

[a fairytale sparkle, or an ‘80s starwipe!]

CH: "Regular" had two meanings there. [NK and CH chuckle] Now, the nibbling and squeaking -- water voles just make those sounds naturally. But water voles' droppings only sparkle in an emergency. Which this is. Water voles could once be found nibbling and squeaking along waterways all over Wales. Now they're all but extinct in all but a handful of places -- because of what one scientist calls "a perfect storm of bad things", including drained wetlands, and invasive predators. It's tough for conservationists to even know where the remaining water voles are, because they're reclusive. That's where the glitter comes in. Well, where the glitter comes in is the voles' mouths. And it comes out in the form of glittery poop -- which will let conservationists see where they've been. And if scientists use different colours of glitter for different families of voles, the poop will give them a much fuller picture of the voles' habitat and range. Which, in turn, will help them understand what environmental changes need to be made to allow the creatures to thrive. The glitter, I'll mention, is both edible and biodegradable. And it will add a touch of the fabulous to both water-vole poop and water-vole research. And if it works -- well, what a dazzling achievement.

[chiptune]

Part 2: Canadian-Made Car, AI Reading List

Canadian-Made Car

Guest: Flavio Volpe

CH: The Manic GT looks like something James Bond would have driven. Not the Daniel Craig James Bond. Definitely the Roger Moore James Bond. The sleek little sports car was made in Quebec about 50 years ago. The Bricklin SV-1 -- made in New Brunswick in the '70s -- had more of a space-age vibe, with doors that open up like gull wings. Now, you've probably never heard of either of these Canadian-made cars. That's because they weren't successful. But in the midst of the trade war with the U.S., Flavio Volpe thinks it's time for Canada to take another look at having an automaker of its very own. Mr. Volpe is the president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturing Association, which represents Canadian companies that supply components to international automakers. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Flavio, you certainly know Canada's track record with this issue. Were you bracing, given that, for people to roll their eyes or even laugh at you when you brought this idea up?

FLAVIO VOLPE: Well, look, I mean, we have a lot of national traditions, and one is to be really comfortable in our successes, and not try the types of things that define big league countries. There have been attempts in the past to do this that have failed. But certainly, they haven't been in today's era, where Canada is a superpower in parts manufacturers, in tooling, in the critical minerals that power electrification of vehicles, but also in all that connectivity, technology, the AI, the machine learning that makes the electrified cars of the future. Those are all Canadian strengths. And I think we should learn from the past. We should learn why those things failed, but we should also learn from those great dreamers and entrepreneurs that said in the failing, there is something that we add to the national zeitgeist, to the ambition, and to defining to the next generation just how hard they should strive as we build this country.

NK: We're in a different position, you're saying. We have different know-how, different skills, and it's a different time in history. I hear what you're seeing on that front. You spoke to the Globe and Mail as well, and they spoke to others who have some different thoughts. Dennis Darby, of the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, told the paper, quote, the devil will be in the details. McMaster University's Greg Mordew, who used to work as an executive at Toyota Canada, told the paperwork, quote, it's just not practical. So, there are others who feel this way. Do you understand that skepticism, and where they're coming from?

FV: You know, frankly, I think it's healthy debate. And what Dennis said is the same things that we say, I didn't say let's start a car company. I said we should do the hard work to do the feasibility study to understand if we can do that sustainably In a way that creates a cluster. And I think I agree exactly with what Dennis had the devil is in the details. Greg is a gentleman. You know, we worked together when he was on the opposite of the table at Toyota. But I prefer to try to do something more ambitious than what we've done in the past. What we've done in past has also left us vulnerable in a position when the world shifts because the president of the United States has a cold. I'm not offended by skepticism or criticism. I think that there are smarter people than all of us that should take a good look at this and give it a run.

NK: Are there interested parties so far, as you've been having these conversations?

FV: Well, we launched Project Arrow, a demonstration, all-Canadian vehicle prototype two years ago. And it's been touring the world. In that program, we've had interested parties, Canadian parties and global parties, who wanted to put capital at risk to launch a car company. And I said then to them, that vehicle's for demonstration, that is not for serious production, but it has always been one of the projects that we wanted to pursue after to say, look, what if we started with a look at something that you could do for serious production that could fill a gap? There are lots of interested parties. The reaction to this today has been extraordinary. This is probably my 20th interview. I was just on stage at the Canadian Club in Toronto. What people have been saying today is, you're absolutely right about the national ambition. Let's try something different. Let's leave something for our children and our grandchildren, even if it's just the legacy of not being afraid to put ourselves out there in a world where the definition of the big leagues are changing. Mexico and Mexico's president has launched a car company called Alinea, Turkey, and Vietnam. Canada is in a second tier to those countries today in automaking, and that's just not the Canada that I'm satisfied with.

NK: So, as difficult as the uncertainty from the tariff threats and tariff realities coming from the United States have been, was there a part of you that given what you've been doing with Project Arrow that was excited, if that's the right word, that they're seeing an opportunity there after all this time?

FV: Well, look, Project Arrow is an industrial collaboration. Nobody owns it other than us. And it's not a commercial venture. I'll say that things we learned on Project Arrow is that everything in a vehicle can be made by Canadians in Canada. Now, that doesn't make it commercially viable. You know, you have to make sure that you build something for profit. But it has drawn out a lot of dreamers for us in everything from the AI space to the critical mineral space. And I think it would be a shame for all of these people who are expressing a very strong intent to be part of something bigger, and to move Canada's interests forward, we've all spent the last few months really defending Canada, then if all I can contribute to this is all of the political equity I have to say, let's give this really strong consideration, and let's see who are the experts in the disciplines that we need here to make a go of it. You know, then I'm very excited to be all in. And there is a groundswell of people who are very excited to give this a very serious look.

NK: We've been speaking with auto workers and automakers throughout this tariff uncertainty. They've said, you know, that the market here is not huge in Canada. I think fewer than 2 million vehicles are sold each year in Canada. So, in terms of the market for a Canadian vehicle in the future, what do you see on that front?

FV: Well, there's automakers that make 10 million cars a year, like Toyota and Volkswagen. There are car companies that make 11,000 a year like Ferrari. The volume to get market share in a 2 million vehicle market, and then also to build for export. If you have the right product, you can build a profitable company at much lower volumes than the biggest car makers do. Every car maker starts with their first car and their first plant. Ten years ago, I sat at a forum in Detroit where a young upstart named Elon Musk said, well, we've made 50,000 cars this year. We think in the next five years, we'll make 500,000 cars that year, and everybody laughed at him. And this year, Tesla -- which didn't exist in 2008 -- will make 2.5 Million cars, and it's the most valuable car company in the world.

NK: Flavio Volpe, I appreciate your time, as always.

FV: Anytime, Nil. Thank you for having me.

CH: Flavio Volpe is the the president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturing Association. He’s in Toronto.

[ambient]

Drowning Rescue

CH: It started out as a leisurely stroll along the grounds of a former St. John's golf course. It ended in a dramatic rescue operation. Last week, retired CBC Newfoundland and Labrador reporter Glenn Payette was on a walk with his wife when they heard noises coming from somewhere nearby.

SOUNDCLIP

GLENN PAYETTE: My wife went, who's making that racket? And suddenly, I went that sounds like somebody might be calling their dog. And a moment later, I realized and I said to my wife, that's somebody calling help, or help me. And as soon as we heard that, we made a beeline for the voice, then saw him, picked up the pace, and he was in the pond on his back. And it was clear immediately that he was exhausted. He was spent. I yelled out, we're here, we're going to get you out, don't worry. He was about 12 feet from shore, I'd say. And there was no way I could reach him. So, I looked around for a stick. I laid down on my belly and I asked my wife to, you know, hold my legs. She did. I reached out with it and got it out to him. He was able to grab it. And, of course, he was still up, but he had been rolling on his side. His face was in the water. But he had enough strength to grab it. I was able to gingerly pull him in, and when I got him close enough, I was able to reach down, grab his arm and his jacket and pull him up. And once I got to that point, then I yelled to my wife, call 911. So, once I knew he was safe and things were more secure, his dog was in the pond, and that's how he ended up in the pond because the dog went in because there was a dead dog already in the pond, and the dog had gone in after it. And he went to try and get his own dog off, stepped on the edge on the rubber and slipped in. And luckily, another man came by who also had a dog. I said, come give me a hand and we'll pull him up. We were able to, between the two of us, pull him and get him up so that his bum was now on ground and he was safe. And around the same time, the fire department and the police started to arrive. A couple of police officers went into the pond and slipped on the rubber lining. Luckily, we’re able to get back on their feet. And at one point, they were trying to put a leash back on his dog. And when they did it, they pulled, and the collar came right off the dog's head. So, then they had to try it again. [chuckling] And they got the collar back on. This time when they pulled it stayed on, and he was able to give the dog a shove and they got it up over the bank. They got the dog up, put him in one of their vehicles, they took him, put him on one of their vehicles, and checked them out. And, luckily, he was fine. We talked to him about how he's feeling. He's doing well. And now, he seems to be fine.

CH: Glenn Payette is a retired CBC reporter in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[ambient]

AI Reading List

Guest: Tina Simmons

CH: If you're a book lover, the release of a summer reading list is reason for you to get out your highlighter and get excited. It's generally an opportunity to learn about novels to look forward to -- except when you discover the fiction list is itself fiction. Recently, podcaster and self-proclaimed "Booktuber" Tina Simmons took a closer look at a list that the Chicago Sun-Times published. She recognized the names of the authors, but she didn't recognize the names of their upcoming books. And it turned out that was because they don't exist. So, she outed the paper for using AI to generate the list. We reached her in Chicago, Illinois.

NK: Tina, so you -- and many others -- see this summer reading list pop up. Is that something that usually gets you excited?

TINA SIMMONS: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I am a big, one of my things I always say is I'm obsessed with new books. I just love book lists. I want to see what's coming out. And when this came to my attention, a friend sent me a photo of the list from the paper. And I thought immediately, because I pay such close attention to books, that at least half of the titles were fake. I saw Andy Weir listed and I saw a title that I didn't know. And I'm like, oh! Maybe he has a new book coming out because that would be great. But then quickly, I realized not only were some of them hallucinated, some of them were corrected to wrong authors, [NK chuckles] like the one that said migration. So quickly, I realized, oh, this is not good.

NK: Yeah, I too, you see the names of the authors, Isabel Allende, just at the top of the list. But what were some of the titles that you saw and thought there is no way? [chuckle]

TS: Yeah, no. Well, for the one sort of, like, right in the beginning, Isabel Allende, I did not know about that one. But then I saw The Last Algorithm by Andy Weir and that was my big tip-off because I thought if I know Andy Weier, I feel like that is a very anti sort of title, right, that he would write. And then I kept reading, and I'm like, oh my goodness, I know these authors. I know their work. Migrations by Charlotte McConaghy is one of my all-time favourite books and it's listed here, Maggie O'Farrell. And I'm like, oh no, this is all wrong. And so, I sort of went through methodically to figure out, I'm, like, some of these are just made up and then some of them, you know, have the wrong author credited, like Hurricane Season is Fernanda Melcher, not Britt Bennett. And, you, I sort figured it from there.

NK: You don't want to make a book lover angry.

TS: Oh no.

NK: You don't wanna upset them, obviously. Let alone with a huge audience online. So, you took a picture and posted it of you holding up this page from the actual newspaper, and you started hearing from people -- including authors -- really quickly, right?

TS: Exactly. And so, what I did, I had this photo. Initially, it was just the picture on a desk. And one person said, hey, how do we know this photo is real? And I'm like, no, you know what I am. I'm going to go cite my sources. I took myself to the library, took that paper out and, like, wanted to get a picture with me in it, with the date on my wristwatch, or my Apple Watch, just so that folks could say, oh, okay, this is a real thing. I just didn't want people to question the authenticity of it, right? And we should be questioning things that we see online. Is this real? Was it really in the paper? And it was. And that's, yeah, once I posted that photo with me holding the newspaper in the library, I'm like, oh no. It was exciting because I'm like, I know, like you said, readers are going to get, we're going to get excited, or not excited, upset by this, but also the authors. That's when things really got blown up is when some of the authors started writing their response pieces. And I'm like, oh, this is a big thing.

NK: And what did they say?

TS: Initially, I saw not only just authors, they were some of my very favourite authors. Like, I saw Chuck Wending responded. And basically, he was like, is this real? And so, I think to his, it was on Blue Sky, to his post, I responded, yes, it is. And here's the photo of me holding up this paper, you know, and I had to, like, break it to one of my favourite authors that, indeed, this sloppy AI-generated list was real. And basically, they just called into question the integrity of the paper, but also just readership in general, and why AI usage as it pertains to books and reading is such a problem. And how their books are getting fed into these generative AI. And just down the line, how bad this can be overall.

NK: The newspaper has said that this was made externally, that members of the newsroom did not know. And they're not sure how it made it that far to the point of publication. Because even if something is in an advertised section or a special section that's not the journalistic section, it does, it's supposed to go through a review. What is your understanding at this point of how this all went down? How it did get to that point?

TS: Yeah, so I understand that they sort of hired this third-party company to create this insert. And, to be fair, it was an insert. And I didn't make that clear in my initial post. It wasn't, like, in the Times. It was an insert in the Times. However, it still has their name right at the top with the date. And, to me, they're responsible for it. Their name is on it. They have to have accountability. But from what I understand, they hired a third-party company that does this sort insert. And they had a person, I guess at the company, create this list. It was a 60-page insert. And then, it looks like this other website contacted and found out who wrote it because his name was on some of the other pieces, but not on this specific summer reading list. And then, they contacted him and he admitted to feeding it through AI, and said that he typically does check his work and edit it, but it slipped his mind in this case. And I'm like, okay.

NK: Yeah, it slipped his mind. He also apologized, but what did you make of that apology?

TS: I imagine he's having a very bad time right now. I think he is, you know, I think he's one person that did this thing that is really, really bad. And, you know, rightfully so. I'm imagining he's having repercussions from that. I just think, in general, this is a bad thing for all of us, you now? I think he's presumably paid to make this list, who fed it through this thing and thought yeah good enough. There are so many book sellers, podcasters, content creators, librarians, etc. that would have loved to create this guide. And book people, we don't cost that much. [chuckling] So, you could have definitely paid somebody to create a very authentic and diverse, robust list. And instead, he just slept on it. And this is the fallout.

NK: Publishers, as well, release lists. So, even if someone wasn't going to do, this is not a journalistic endeavor, still not great. You should still talk to people and maybe read the books before you recommend them. But what do you think ultimately needs to change?

TS: Yeah, I just think, I mean, there has to be accountability, right? I do understand AI is here to stay, and I'm using AI very broadly. You know, I think generative AI is the problem here. It's the thing that has hallucinated these titles, so to speak. Usage of generative AI just sort of robs us from the ability to be creative. Like, this is fun. I would have loved to have made a list like this. And like you said, the resources are everywhere. You know, people who love books would have easily been able to get this. But this person robbed us book lovers of getting that ability to create something like this.

NK: Tina, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

TS: Thank you so much. I appreciate this.

CH: Tina Simmons is a booklover and podcaster in Chicago.

[industrial]

UBC ‘Jeopardy’

CH: Brendan Liaw's recent Instagram post starts begins, quote: "Well uh, I did a thing. The Thing really." Unquote. And for him, The Thing -- his lifelong dream -- was to be on Jeopardy! Not only did his episode air last night, but he won. In that post, Mr. Liaw continued, "Am I using too many exclamation marks? Yeah!!!" -- with three exclamation marks, [chuckling] if you were wondering -- "But you may never see me this excited ever again." If his passion for Jeopardy! isn't clear yet, here's Brendan Liaw talking to the CBC this morning about being on the show.

SOUNDCLIP

BRENDAN LIAW: To be totally honest, it still feels kind of not real. The past, like, two months, I've just been texting, my dad was in the audience and a couple of friends. And I've been texting them every couple of weeks being like, hey, I did that, right? Like, I didn't just hallucinate being on stage. And I'm not going to watch the episode yesterday and see three strangers and not me. [chuckling].

STEPHEN QUINN: And not you there. That's weird. Yeah, I could see having kind of an out of body experience while that was going on.

BL: Oh yeah! Watching it yesterday, I was like, oh wow, I do not remember most of what happened.

SQ: How did you prepare?

BL: How did I prepare? I would say it's pretty much been, like, a lifelong thing of, you know, paying attention to the news and things that you read, and paying attention in classes. But when I got the call, I obviously went into study mode, and lots of flashcards and practicing on the buzzer. So, just trying to get those things up to standard for the show.

SQ: And when did you start watching it?

BL: Oh, definitely around eight, nine. That's probably the first time I started watching. And I think pretty early on, I realized, like, oh, okay, I know quite a few of these things. [chuckle] And it feels good to know things.

SQ: Eight or nine.

BL: Yeah, yeah, eight or nine. And so, it kind of just ballooned into a dream. I did Reach for the Top in high school, which Alex Trebek hosted briefly. So, that also helped.

SQ: Wow. How hard is it to perform on stage when you're competing against these other, you know, super smart people, and you're there behind the podium and the questions start getting fired at you?

BL: You don't really have time to even be nervous, I guess. You just have to go out and play. You don't find out when you're playing until, like, five minutes before.

SQ: Wow.

BL: Yeah, they don't draw names until, like, five minutes before you're going up on stage. It is hard. I don't know if you watched yesterday's game, but it was a bit of a nail-biter. It wasn't looking good for me at the half, but I was lucky with the categories in the second round, and managed to rebound and get the win.

SQ: And the episode, of course, was taped earlier this year, and you've had to keep all of this a secret until now.

BL: Yes, hence the, like, feeling this is surreal. Because it's, you know, you can't say anything about it. [SQ chuckles] And it's like only, I don't know, 20 other people know that you did it for, like, two months. And you're like, uh, was this just a prank?

[chuckling]

CH: Jeopardy! contestant and UBC grad, Brendan Liaw, talking to CBC host Stephen Quinn on The Early Edition in Vancouver this morning.

[island rock]

Part 3: South Africa/U.S. Meeting, Dolphin Whistles

Franco Netflix

CH: If you live in Quebec, it should soon be easier to entertain yourself en français. The province has tabled a bill that would force streaming services to add more French-language content -- and make it easier to find. Quebec calls it a "visibility quota" -- and it's aimed at the big companies that provide music, TV, and movies to Quebeckers. Quebec Culture Minister Mathieu Lacombe says that only 8.5 per cent of the music people listen to in his province is in French. And he wants to change that. Here's some of what he told reporters today.

SOUNDCLIP

MATHIEU LACOMBE: The goal of this bill is to make sure that Quebeckers has the choice. Right now, it's not very easy for them to find francophone content on Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+. So, the goal is really to make that there's some francophone content and to make sure that it's easy. For them to find it. They can choose to watch, to listen, what they want, but we want them to have the choice.

REPORTER: You don't want to start a war.

ML: No, obviously not.

REPORTER: How will you make sure digital platforms take you seriously with this piece of legislation?

ML: I'm sure they will. Because if you see what's happening in other countries, in other jurisdictions, for instance, the European Union, the government of Canada has a legislation as well. So, what we see is that they want to cooperate. They want to work with governments. They don't agree with everything, but they want to work with us. This is what I heard when I spoke with them.

REPORTER: Okay, but in your bill, you give digital platforms the option to get an agreement for other measures. So, you're already putting an alternative in your bill.

ML: Yeah.

REPORTER: Why?

ML: Because we want it to work. For some businesses, it will be hard because of their business model. But with these substitution measures, we will be able to reach an agreement with them.

REPORTER #2: Talking about the U.S., and some of the trade tensions that we have with them right now, is this compliant with our current trade agreement?

ML: Yes.

REPORTER #2: And even if it is, do you think that it might create some tension?

ML: If it's not about this, it will be about something else. So, I think we have to protect our culture. It's important.

CH: Quebec Culture Minister Mathieu Lacombe speaking to reporters.

[elevator music]

South Africa/ U.S. Meeting

Guest: Ndzalama Mathebula

CH: Once again, the world winced at a contentious meeting between world leaders in the Oval Office. U.S. President Donald Trump and South African President Cyril Ramaphosa sat down today to try and mend the rift between their countries. A rift created by President Trump -- who continues to say, falsely, that South Africa's Afrikaner community is facing a quote "genocide." In February, he suspended aid to South Africa -- and offered Afrikaners, a white minority group, the opportunity to settle in the U.S. as refugees. Last week, the first group arrived in the United States. President Ramaphosa arrived at the White House today aiming to please. He brought with him two decorated South African golfers, and a fourteen-kilogram book about South African golf courses. But his attempts at ingratiation didn't work for long. During the meeting, a reporter asked the U.S. president what it would take for him to be convinced that there is no genocide in South Africa. President Ramaphosa stepped in to answer.

SOUNDCLIP

CYRIL RAMAPHOSA: It will take President Trump listening to the voices of South Africans, some of whom are his good friends, like those who are here. When we have talks between us around a quiet table, it will take President Trump to listen to them. I'm not going to be repeating what I've been saying. I would say, if there was Afrikaner farmer genocide, I can bet you these three gentlemen would not be here, including my minister of agriculture. He would not be with me. So, it'll take him, President Trump, listening to their stories, to their perspective. That is the answer to your question.

CH: Ndzalama Mathebula is an assistant lecturer in the Department of Politics and International Relations at the University of Johannesburg. We reached her in Johannesburg.

NK: Ndzalama, we heard the South African president interject there. After that, the U.S. President pulled up videos that he said proved, you know, the case that he and his supporters have been trying to make repeatedly. What did you make of that exchange?

NDZALAMA MATHEBULA: So basically, I do believe that much of what we are dealing with with the tensions that we are currently facing between South Africa and America, they're mostly based on falsehood. And they're actually used as a scapegoat for the actual problem. I do think that what South Africa is being punished for is their ICJ case that they put against Israel at the ICJ court. So, it is much simpler to prosecute them based on a falsehood that claims that there is genocide -- or white genocide -- in South Africa. It is a clip that shows that something is happening in South Africa, but doesn't necessarily show that there is white genocide in South Africa.

NK: The fact that that is how the meeting unfolded, one headline -- at least one headline -- described it as a, quote, ambush. What was the sense and the sentiment in South Africa before this meeting about the decision to even go there and have this meeting where the chances of something like this are quite high?

NM: So, really, the meeting for many of us in South Africa, it was quite anticipated. And this is drawn from how the meeting between the president of America, Trump, and president of Ukraine, Zelenskyy, how it unfolded. And how we watched that at a world stage. But honestly, it quite anticipated that there would be such an ambush because we've notice that, you know, there is some form of erratic behaviour from the American president, in which it's quite hard for him to actually be diplomatic. What we are seeing is, you know, this quite ambush of white genocide. And I do believe that President Ramaphosa, he went with his team there just to prove that there isn't such. So now, if there isn't willingness from one end to listen and to acknowledge in actual fact that there isn't white genocide, it becomes hard then to dispel all these myths.

NK: So, people in South Africa were prepared for this. I would imagine that the delegation and the president himself went in eyes wide open, knowing what they might encounter, and strategized about how to respond. What did you think from where you sit of how South Africa's president responded, or didn't respond. His demeanor in that Oval Office meeting, in that exchange, how do you think he performed?

NM: I do believe that, firstly, he was quite diplomatic, you know? And, at the same time, he tried as much as he could to ensure that in his diplomacy, he dispels what is being termed a white genocide in South Africa. Although we had hoped for better because we do understand the implications at an economic level, we do believe that he did answer enough, or respond enough in a very diplomatic manner, in order for him to dispel, you know, and to justify his end, to dispels all those myths.

NK: Beyond dispelling that, and what the Trump administration keeps trying to perpetuate, Elon Musk has been doing that, was in that room, as we understand it, later meeting, if not the Oval Office meeting. Beyond that, the trade, the impact of tariffs on South Africa, what would a full win be? As we try to understand why South Africa's president would take the risk on this international stage of being put in a position like this, what was at stake for him and his administration to try to get out of this, or soon after this meeting?

NM: Honestly speaking, South Africa and the USA have been trading since 1994, since South African new democracy. You know, since the inception of democracy. So, the trade relations that exist between the two states are very crucial to both economies. So, actually having these tariffs, they are a burden, and they are an extra burden to the overall existing challenges known to many South Africans. Many of these tariffs are only based on the administration, meaning that it's time-based, meaning if there is a new president in America, then things might change. However, that doesn't necessarily dismiss the fact that South Africa's economy itself cannot afford to have such high tariffs.

NK: Yeah. There's still several more years to go in this administration. Does South Africa have leverage?

NM: Oh yes, I do believe that South Africa, they do have leverage to a certain extent. Because some of the trade that we conduct with America. And to a certain extent, South Africa, America is not the only trading partner South Africa has, you know? That's one thing that we should understand. In South Africa itself, it does have a robust economy, although not responsive to many of our challenges that we are facing. However, it is robust enough for it to be positioned as a strategic partner within the global community or global arena. So, it does have leverage to a certain extent. So, it's not a relationship that can be scratched out of existence, rather it is a relationship that has to endure some form of administrative burdens for now. So, to show that it is important both to the American economy, it is not easy to expel South Africa as a trading partner for America. Because if it was, Ndzalama,I do believe at this point it would have been executed.

NK: Ndzalama, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

NM: Thank you. Thank you so, so much.

CH: Ndzalama Mathebula is an assistant lecturer in the Department of Politics and International Relations at the University of Johannesburg. We reached her in Johannesburg, South Africa.

[chillhop]

FOA: WNBA Fan

CH: Gary Knox knew tonight was coming. He predicted it way back in 2013. That's when he posted a photo on Twitter with the caption: "Remember the name: Paige Bueckers. 6th grade, think Diana Taurasi. Best 6th grade G I've ever seen." Last month, Paige Bueckers was picked first overall in the WNBA draft. And tonight, she returns to her home state of Minnesota for the first time as a professional basketball player -- where her team, the Dallas Wings, will take on the Minnesota Lynx. Last month, Nil talked to Gary Knox about his long-ago prediction.

SOUNDCLIP

GARY KNOX: I was actually there watching my daughter who played varsity for Hopkins. A few people, dads, came over to me and said, hey, did you see the sixth grade over there on the freshman court dominating? I said, no, I haven't seen her. So, I looked over there and automatically I said you know what, I see her right away. It was almost like a child prodigy, you know, someone who was playing, you know how you see someone playing Beethoven, or Adagio for Strings on the violin. She was just over there different, you know, her footwork was impeccable, she had a real jump shot that was above her head. You now, the girls, they tried to rough her up a little bit or bump her off her spot, but she would just use her skills and use that to her advantage. You know, she'll have space and then she'll just let it fly.

NK: Yeah. So, what was it like to see Paige drafted first?

GK: I had shivers. It just brought chills to me that someone that I noticed in 6th grade and followed all the way, I saw her up close and personal in high school from 8th Grade all the way to her senior year. And I watched her from afar at UConn. And I also followed her in the box score when she went to the Olympics and won gold. And to see her dream finally come true, you know, there's a whole saying that hard work pays off. She's the epitome of hard work paying off because she didn't get here by accident. I'm impressed with what she did, but I'm not surprised.

NK: And are you planning to travel to see her play for the Wings?

GK: Well, my daughter just got tickets for me to see, I believe it's May 21st when Dallas comes to Minnesota, so I'll be front and centre at that game.

NK: Nice! You going together with your daughter?

GK: Oh, absolutely.

CH: Gary Knox speaking to Nil in April. And as I mentioned, Paige Beuckers will play her first WNBA game tonight, in her home state of Minnesota. Ahead of the game, she was asked about Mr. Knox -- who was in the crowd.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: Paige, I know that it's been brought up multiple times, but the tweet when you were here playing basketball, Gary G Prep over here. I don't know if you noticed him, but like --

PAIGE BEUCKERS: Got the originator.

REPORTER: Yeah, if you wanted to say anything to him on the way in.

PB: Yeah, I mean me and G Prep go way back. I played with his daughter, played with and against his son all the time in open gyms, but just what the investment in being a part of Minnesota means to me, it means everything. I'm super proud to be from this state. And the belief and the support that I felt from the state, it's meant everything to me.

CH: Dallas Wings rookie Paige Bueckers speaking ahead of tonight's game in Minneapolis.

[ambient]

Dolphin Whistiles

Guest: Laela Sayigh

CH: We know they are considerate enough to leap out of the water every so often, so we can get a cool picture. We know they're smarter than we are -- which is kind of impressive, but, you know, not that impressive. And now, we know that they're also accomplished at aquatic communication. In fact, bottle-nosed dolphins in Sarasota, Florida, use a variety of whistles to communicate with each other. That's not entirely new information. But a team of researchers in Sarasota are closer to cracking the creature's oceanic Morse code.

SOUNDCLIP

[a collection of dolphin whistles]

CH: Those are non-signature whistles recorded by a team of researchers with the Sarasota Dolphin Research Program, who have been studying dolphin whistles for nearly four decades. Their research hasn't been peer-reviewed yet -- but it has won them the Coller-Dolittle Prize, which comes with a cheque for $100,000. Laela Sayigh is one of the lead researchers on the winning team. We reached her on her boat in Sarasota, Florida.

NK: Laela, you're out on the water right now doing your work. How does it look out there?

LAELA SAYIGH: It looks great. Yeah, it's beautiful out here.

NK: You've been doing this work for decades now. So, to receive this award, what is that like?

LS: It's thrilling. [chuckling] I was very, very excited about it. You know, it's not something that gets recognition very often, and a lot of it is, you know, there's a a lot going on behind the scenes to keep a long-term research project going.

NK: And we spoke with Yossi, who helped create this prize. He was on our show just about a year ago, in fact. Just having a prize like this, what does that mean for the kind of work you and your colleagues do?

LS: Well, it does really kind of elevate it. Animal communication is something that certainly is interesting to a lot of people, but maybe is not considered, you know, critical science in some realms. But, you, know, I thought the fact that they created this, to me, it kind of adds credibility.

NK: And what are the dolphins up to today, as you look out on the water?

LS: Yeah, we're following a mother-calf pair right now. And so, we were able to do some playback experiments to the mom while she was still wearing her tag, so that was exciting. [chuckle].

NK: We've covered dolphins and all they can do on on our show before. Recently, you know, we talked about how they can recognize each other's whistles; we knew that already, and even their pee. But your research goes into the meaning of some of those whistles, or the intention behind them what are they trying to communicate.

LS: Well, I mean, I would say that we're still still in the early stages of figuring that out. But we have tried to focus what we do obviously know about their signature whistles. I mean but you mentioned you've already kind of covered that. So, they do have these individually distinctive name-like sounds that they produce. And they also copy each other's signature whistles. But yeah, what my work has really been focused on recently, and what the with the Coller-Dolittle Prize was about, was non-signature whistles. So, looking at these other types of that there's very little known about. And we're starting to think we might have a hunch how they work. So, we're trying to do playback experiments to look at these in particular.

NK: So, two distinct non-signature whistles, when are they using them?

LS: Yes. So, one was we first discovered when we were doing non-signature whistle playbacks. This was actually a while back, before we really knew anything about non-signature whistles. And we were actually just trying to see whether dolphins could recognize whistles produced by specific animals if they weren't their signature. So, we weren't really trying to test anything about whistle function at that time. But when we did those, I noticed, I was actually astonished to notice, that a bunch of animals made a really similar whistle in response to them. And, I mean, I still remember it quite vividly because I emailed my colleague and said, you're not going to believe this, like, there's something really weird going on here because we had never seen anything like that before. Or, I mean, it may have happened, but we just hadn't, you know, noticed it. So, that was sort of the first, you know, hint that I had that there are these repeated shared non-signature whistle types. And the context that that particular one was produced was this kind of unusual stimuli. And then, we had another experiment where there was like a pair of males. They make these very strong bonds, male male alliances. And we were trying to play back their own whistles to them when they were separated so it would seem like their partner was calling them and to see how they were going to respond to that. But they didn't separate. And so, we decided to just do it anyway. And they made that particular whistle in response.

NK: Do calves do this as well?

LS: So, that's a good question. I have not specifically looked at whether calves do this. I can't offhand think of any incidents where I've seen a calf doing it, but I haven't actually, like, parsed the data set to check that.

NK: Nope, just curious. That's all right.

LS: Yeah.

NK: You learned a lot already. How did you collect this data, these sounds?

LS: Yeah, so that's something that's really unique about this project here in Sarasota is that we do these brief catch-and-release health assessments. But during that time, I have a suction cup hydrophone that I actually can place right on their melon, the sort of fatty part of their forehead. It's completely, it doesn't bother them at all. Like, it doesn't leave any mark when you take it off. You just kind of pop it on and they're just like, whatever. [chuckling] And then, so we get these really, really high-quality recordings from known dolphins because that's been one of the most challenging aspects of studying dolphin communication is that you can't identify which animal is making a sound, even if you're looking right at them. So, this has been like this incredible kind of gold mine of data to be able to get these high-quality recording from known animals. And that's enabled us to build this very large database that we have.

NK: And so, what will this prize money help you do next?

LS: So, I had sort of three main components. One was to increase our use of AI in the work. You know, the Coller-Dolittle Prize, they're interested in that aspect. So, I was actually even doubly surprised in a sense that I won, even though my project didn't use it. But we definitely have been working on algorithms. It's nothing like human language, but we do have hundreds, if not even thousands of whistles, from the same animal. We really want to be able to, at any given time, say, okay, this particular animal is at this station, and then three hours later, it moved down to this station, and whatever, and sort of track the movements of all these animals without even having to leave a computer.

NK: Laela, I appreciate this. Thank you for your time.

LS: You're very welcome. Thank you.

CH: Laela Sayigh is a scientist at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. She's in Sarasota, Florida.

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Banu Mushtaq Booker Prize

CH: The stories in the book Heart Lamp are deeply local. But they resonate for readers around the world -- which is why, yesterday, author Banu Mushtaq and translator Deepa Bhasthi were awarded the International Booker Prize for fiction. Heart Lamp explores the lives of Muslim women in southern India. As Ms. Mushtaq puts it, the stories are about, quote, "how religion, society and politics demand unquestioning obedience from them, and in doing so, inflict inhumane cruelty upon them." Unquote. Ms. Mushtaq has dealt with that subject matter for years in her work as a lawyer, writer, and activist championing women's rights. The stories in Heart Lamp were written in the Kannada language, which is spoke in parts of southern India. Here’s some of Ms. Mushtaq's speech last night in London.

SOUNDCLIP

BANU MUSHTAQ: As sailing across languages and borders, this is your victory too. And my family, friends, and readers, you are the soil where my stories grow. This book is my love letter to the idea that no story is local. That a tale born under a banyan tree in my village can cast shadows as far as this stage tonight. To every reader who journeyed with me, you have made my Kannada language a shared home. It is a language that sings of resilience and nuance. To write in Kannada is to inherit a legacy of cosmic wonder and earthly wisdom. This book was born from the belief that no story is ever small. That in the tapestry of human experience, every thread holds the weight of the whole. In a world that often tries to divide us, literature remains one of the last sacred spaces where we can live inside each other's minds, if only for a few pages. To every reader who trusted me with their time, thank you for letting my words wander into your heart.

CH: Banu Mushtaq, author of Heart Lamp, speaking at the International Booker Prize award ceremony last night. Ms. Mushtaq and translator Deepa Bhasthi won the prize for fiction.

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FOA: Tallest NS Church

CH: The Digby County community of Church Point, Nova Scotia takes its name from the Église Sainte-Marie -- the tallest wooden church in North America. It was built by volunteers from the Acadian Catholic community in 1903 -- and to this day, it can be seen from kilometres around. But they haven't held church services there for a long time, and the cost of much-needed repairs is prohibitive -- so years ago, it was slated for demolition, despite the best efforts of locals to save it. Well, today, they got some welcome news. An advisory body to UNESCO known as the International Council on Monuments and Sites has issued a Heritage Alert for the church -- a designation that recognizes it as an internationally significant site under threat. In 2023, Nil spoke with Pierre Comeau, the president of Société Édifice Sainte-Marie de la Pointe -- after an anonymous donor promised $10 million dollars to restore the church, but then faded into the woodwork.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: For people who haven't had a chance to see this building, just paint a picture of our listeners of Église Sainte-Marie.

PC: It's a wooden building with wooden shingles, wood, wood roof. It's most definitely the largest wooden church in North America -- and possibly in the world, although there's one in Finland that gives it a good, a good run for the money. [NK chuckles] I think it depends how you measure them. So, the fact, this church was built a little over a hundred years ago by our forefathers over, over a two-year period.

NK: So, it's been through some things.

PC: Oh, yes. It's, it's got, it's got history.

NK: It's one thing to see photographs, Pierre, of the structure, but how do you feel when you step inside the doors?

PC: Oh, the, the grandeur and the ornate furnishings inside are very, very impressive. It's, it's a source of pride to the, the Acadian community in this end of the province, which is a minority in the province of Nova Scotia. But we're attached to it because of its history, how it was built and how majestic it looks.

NK: If you could speak to that initial person, though, who offered that $10 million and then disappeared, what would you want them to know?

PC: I'd want them to know what they did to our emotions, and the joy we had and now the disappointment, and the fact that the building faces an extremely uncertain future.

NK: If that money doesn't come, what does that future look like?

PC: It looks, to me, as if the, the building may face demolition. Neither the local area nor the archdiocese have the financial resources to repair it.

CH: From Our Archives, that was Pierre Comeau, the president of Société Édifice Sainte-Marie de la Pointe in Church Point, Nova Scotia.

The AIH Transcript For May 21, 2025

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