Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2025

The AIH transcript for May 22, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: A dark night. Two young staffers from the Israeli Embassy are shot on the street in Washington, D.C.; a friend of one of the victims says Sarah Lynn Milgrim was kind, smart, and full of hope.

CH: Deliver them with deliveries. A Canadian nurse in Gaza says more and more malnourished children are being brought to her hospital -- so the territory needs a lot more aid shipments, and it needs them now.

NK: Checking all the boxes. And then re-checking them. Weeks after the federal election, a Newfoundland and Labrador riding is still awaiting the results of a recount; the candidates join us to describe how they're dealing with the suspense.

CH: It's not the way the ball bounces -- it's the way he bounces the ball. The man who coached -- and housed -- Canadian basketball star Shai Gilgeous-Alexander in high school reflects on the new NBA MVP.

NK: Author of his own fortune. Newfoundland and Labrador writer Michael Crummey tells us he's relieved he doesn't have to keep his big, international literary award win a secret anymore -- but weeks after he got word -- he says it still doesn't feel real.

CH: And…comma splice of life. The semi-colon may be on the decline, but your love for it is not! We’ll hear from the listeners who called in to show their support for precise punctuation.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday Edition. Radio that celebrates a victory for comma sense.

[theme]

Part 1: Israeli Embassy Killings: Friend, Israeli Embassy Killings: D.C. Orgs, NL Recount, NBA MVP

Israeli Embassy Killings: Friend

Guest: Jake Shapiro

CH: A little after 9 last night, a group of people were leaving the Capital Jewish Museum in Washington, D.C. after an event. A stranger approached them and opened fire -- killing two members of the staff of the Israeli Embassy. Sarah Lynn Milgrim was 26; her boyfriend Yaron Lischinsky was 30. He was reportedly planning to propose next week. The gunman was arrested at the scene. He's been charged with first-degree murder. Ms. Milgrim worked in the Embassy’s Public Diplomacy Department, organizing missions to Israel. Previously, she had worked for Tech2Peace in Tel Aviv, a group uniting Israeli and Palestinian youth through tech and dialogue. Jake Shapiro was Ms. Milgrim's supervisor in Tel Aviv. We reached him in New York.

NK: Jake, I wonder how you found out about what happened?

JAKE SHAPIRO: Yeah, I woke up this morning to many, many text messages. It almost felt like October 7th in the way that just waking up to just a completely different reality. I woke to many messages from both Israeli and Palestinian people that knew Sarah and cared about her.

NK: What were they saying?

JS: Just checking in and sending condolences and support. It's always, you know, sad how sometimes we need these hard moments to reach out and come back together. But, at the same time, it's really important that people care, and we're in solidarity with each other and supporting each other because of Sarah.

NK: How have you spent this day?

JS: It's been pretty crazy, talking to many, many people, supporting each other, checking in. I've looked through old pictures with Sarah, I found old work that we did together, and kind of relived some of those memories. And yeah, it's just really been her day.

NK: You were colleagues, but you were also friends. Tell us about her.

JS: Well, Sarah came to us as an intern, and she comes from a small town in the Midwest, and she was dropped into the Middle East. She was a bit pale. She had red hair. So, coming from that [chuckling] to the Middle East, where everyone is not redheaded, and tan and pushy, and not Midwest nice, she was definitely a little bit of a fish out of water, but she took it completely in stride. Sarah was super friendly, she was super modest, not trying to paste her values onto others, just trying to help out in any way she could and be part of the change, be part of making peace between Israelis and Palestinians. We were able to really go beyond work and have this real friendship with her and with many of our other Israeli and Palestinian friends.

NK: What was she like as a friend?

JS: She's smart, [chuckling] like, she wouldn't let anything get past you. She would challenge you. She was kind of down for whatever. I think she just took some crazy trips into the West Bank with some Palestinian friends and did a lot of traveling. And she was someone I could rely on, both as a friend and a coworker.

NK: What did she tell you about those values you were talking about, why doing this work and working for Tech2Peace in particular was so important to her?

JS: Mm-hmm. Well, she came from a small Jewish community in Kansas, and I think there wasn't necessarily so much ideological diversity around her. And I think, you know, initially she came to Tech2Peace maybe more out of curiosity. But she came for once and then came back for a second, which showed, you know, how important it was for her and how much she enjoyed it. And I think when you come to a community like Tech2Peace where you're encouraged to challenge the status quo and to ask questions and to be critical and to try a different version of reality, I think that becomes really addicting to live in this parallel reality where peace is possible.

NK: When did you last speak with her?

JS: I just looked it up, the last message I sent to her was actually that I used the research brief that she made about Tech2Peace, and I was actually able to use some of the work that she did in order to further the mission. And I just kind of let her know about that and that her work mattered and that I missed her.

NK: What did she say?

JS: Yeah, she was really glad to hear it. I think this was after October 7th as well, so any good news in these days is [chuckle] very good news.

NK: [hushed] I know what you mean. As you look through those photographs that you were mentioning, is there one that you found yourself lingering on or holding closest?

JS: So, there's a picture of her with one of our Palestinian friends in the sunset in the desert during one of our seminars. In one of the pictures they're facing us and in one of the pictures they're looking out, and they look happy and peaceful and optimistic. And it brings me back to another time when things were a bit easier.

NK: Jake, I appreciate this. Please take care of yourself. And again, I'm very sorry for your loss.

JS: Thank you very much, I really appreciate it.

CH: Jake Shapiro is the former development and media manager at Tech2Peace. We reached him in New York.

[cold into next story. No music]

Israeli Embassy Killings: D.C. Orgs

Guest: Yotam Polizer

CH: Last night's event was hosted by several Jewish organizations, including IsraAID -- a nonprofit international humanitarian aid group. Yotam Polizer is the CEO of IsraAID. We reached him in Tel Aviv.

NK: Yotam, members of your staff were there last night. How are they doing?

YOTAM POLIZER: Yes, so our IsraAID D.C. representative was there, and he was actually the main speaker at the event, where the teams from embassies all over the world, including the Israeli embassy, came to hear about our work. The team members are shaken. In fact, they were indoor when the shooting took place just outside the door, so they didn't even hear the shooting, and the terrorist came into the venue right after he shot these people. And he looked shaken and very disturbed. And not our team members, but someone else who was there actually handed him some water. And then, he stood up and screamed free Palestine. And then, at that moment, the police came and arrested him. And then, my team members just realized what just happened because they had no idea.

NK: How did you find out?

YP: So Ron, who is our D.C. Representative, an Israeli guy who is a long-term humanitarian, called me right after the event. It was 5 a.m. in Israel, so he woke me up. [chuckling] But I'm always on the call because we work in emergency relief around the world, so I'm used to getting calls at weird hours, but I didn't expect to get a call from an emergency situation in Washington, D.C. on that night. But he told me exactly what happened. He called me right, you know, the moment he was safe and out of this venue. So, I found out, and it was heartbreaking because these two beautiful young souls were killed. But it was even more heartbreaking because the event, the content, what we talk about was actually about humanitarian aid to Gaza. And how we can build bridges together. We were working, we were speaking with our partner organization, which is another NGO called Multifaith Alliance, and we have been working together to support the people in Gaza and the region for a while now.

NK: How did he put into words, Ron, to you, Yotam, about what happened?

YP: He's a very stable and almost cynical guy. He's seen a lot in his life. He's been doing humanitarian work in the region for a very long time, but he was very shaken. He told me kind of very, in almost dry language, what just happened. And it's 5 a.m., and I'm saying, oh my God, are you serious? And I think, kind of, he started to digest what just happened. And then, it became very emotional.

NK: We know the museum was going to use part of a grant it received recently to increase security there. Were you concerned at all, Yotam, about security and safety before this event?

YP: Honestly, not so much because we know that they have good security at the venue. We are doing similar events with partners all over Washington, D.C., New York, all these venues. We know that there's heavy and tight security. Also, to be clear, this wasn't a Jewish event. I saw in some of the media that it was branded as a Jewish, but it wasn't. It was a diplomat event for the international diplomatic community. There were Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, everyone there from more than 10 countries. So, we definitely didn't think this event could be targeted. And it was very shocking.

NK: Now that this has happened, Yotam, what might it mean for the kind of work your organization does or other events?

YP: Well, we are just more committed to do more than we ever did. If we think, first of all, there is so much need for aid in Gaza, in Israel post-October 7th, in the region. We are a professional humanitarian organization. We've worked in 64 countries. And, to me, it's a wake-up call and it's devastating, but I'm more than ever, and I think all of my team members, including the ones who were at the event yesterday, are more committed than ever to humanitarian aid and to building bridges.

NK: Yotam, I thank you for your time. Please take care. And I hope Ron and the rest of your team are doing as well as can be expected. Thank you for this.

YP: Thank you.

CH: Yotam Polizer is the CEO of IsraAID. We reached him in Tel Aviv.

[instrumental]

NL Recount

Guests: Jonathan Rowe, Anthony Germain

CH: Running for office is usually a marathon month-and-a-half or so of knocking on doors, putting up lawn signs, phoning and being hung up by strangers, and generally pestering everyone to get out and vote. That chaos usually ends with a nail-biting evening watching the returns come in -- and either popping some champagne, or slinking off to bed for a week. But in the Newfoundland riding of Terra Nova-The Peninsulas, that tense election night extended into the next day and the day after that, and on and on...for more than three weeks now. Liberal candidate Anthony Germain won the first count over Conservative Jonathan Rowe by only 12 votes. That triggered an automatic recount. And Elections Canada still hasn't completed that recount -- although final results are expected as soon as tomorrow. We reached Jonathan Rowe in Clarenville and Anthony Germain in Glovertown.

NK: Jonathan, let me start with you. Do you feel, given where you're at, do you feel for where Anthony must be at as you both go through this process?

JONATHAN ROWE: Yeah, I wouldn't say either one of us is getting much sleep. [AG chuckles] It's certainly a tolling experience nonetheless.

NK: Is that an accurate description, Anthony, of what you've been going through?

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Yeah, I mean, the sleepless nights were okay in the beginning of this. It's just the last couple of days where this just seems to keep going and going, and going. So, I have nothing but empathy for my honourable opponent. Jonathan ran one heck of a campaign. But, really, there's, like, nobody deserves to go through this. It's hard enough deciding to get into politics, but to have this every day. Oh no, we'll let you know tomorrow. Well no, tomorrow, whenever it comes, we will do this tomorrow. And so, I don't know, Jonathan, think we'll actually find out tomorrow or not? [everyone chuckles]

JR: We've been hearing tomorrow for a long time, haven't we?

NK: Have you guys had a chance to hang out at this point, or could you even with this still unfolding?

AG: [laughing] We met once during the proceedings, bumped into each other. We've had a very civil campaign. I bumped into jonathan at a hockey arena during the campaign; met his mom. I know that he's very devoted to his Conservative beliefs, as I am to my newly found Liberal beliefs. So, we've had a very civilized campaign, and i've got nothing but respect for young man who's run one heck of a campaign, but such a great campaign that there was only 12 votes between us, so here we are!

NK: [chuckling] And Jonathan, you know, this is a first for both of you to make that decision to run, right? So, I mean, could anyone have prepared you for this?

JR: Well no, I mean, just our luck, right? No one really expects [AG chuckles] to go into a recount, an automatic recount. Everyone wants to win by 500 or 600 or more. So no, no one really ever prepares you for it. It's not something you really expect. But, you know, nothing in life comes easy, and even winning an election, belive it or not.

NK: And how have you been passing the time as you wait and wait?

JR: Well, I've been finishing up some house renovations and packing up some wood for my father and taking a few shifts down at Barney's nursery, planting a few flowers, trying to sell a few apple trees.

NK: [chuckling] You know, as you think back to the decision -- you know, that Anthony was mentioning, too -- that difficult decision to decide to run. When you think back to that and where you are now, do you have any regrets?

JR: Absolutely not. In fact, this is one of the better way to win and one of better ways to lose in a sense of you learn so much. I'm sure Anthony could definitely speak to that as well. You learn so much of all the work it takes behind the scenes. It's been an amazing learning experience, whether you win or lose.

NK: Anthony, what about you?

AG: I mean, I have to agree with Jonathan. We don't agree on many things, but on this we do. I mean, when you actually make the decision to take the plunge to see the people who come behind you to support you, and this is a massive riding, right, Nil? So, you've got people having to drive all over the place to put in your signs and to help you knock on doors. And I'll bet you, I don't know if Jonathan would agree on this, but what I found the most stressful about this is not the stress on me, but it's all the people who believed in me. And I'm sure it's all the people who believed in Jonathan Rowe, calling and texting, when are we 'gonna know? When are we 'gonna know? And you almost feel bad for them, [NK chuckles] worse for them than you do for yourself, and that's actually been more stressful. Like, my father calling me, when are we 'gonna know?

NK: Oh no!

AG: Dad, calm down. Calm down. You'll know when we know.

NK: You know, this is also the time, if you already knew the results, what normally would be happening is you prepare to, you know, have a place in Ottawa, get your office ready, get your team ready, all of that. So, what is it like, Anthony, to be in that kind of limbo?

AG: Well, I think that's why what I said earlier, Nil, is, as we get closer to where we are tomorrow, Friday, I mean, for goodness sake, that'll be like 24 days since Election Night. And, you know, on that night, I remember looking up and I saw Jonathan Rowe, Anthony Germain, and we were tied. And it's just been in this kind of limbo since Election Night, which lasts now, and you mentioned, like, Parliament's back. So, you know, there's a Liberal caucus meeting on Sunday. I saw that Mr. Poilievre has appointed his critics. So, we haven't been trained up, no idea where we should go. So, if the decision does come tomorrow then one of us, and I hope it's going to be me, the MP-elect, but if it's not, it'll be Jonathan, I'll wish him well. One of us has got to get to Ottawa really quick. And we're going to the, am I in the right place? [NK laughs] We're going be that person.

NK: [JR laughs] How are you dealing with that, Jonathan? That feeling, it's kind of like, you know, when you enroll in a new school and you get there a few days after everybody else has, a little bit longer than a few days, so how are you preparing yourself?

JR: Yeah, I was curious on how, [chuckling] if Anthony knew anything more than myself. But we're kind of this in this weird state of limbo. And, you know, here in Clarenville, it's always a running joke our family is always late for church. I think the Lord may be punishing me. [NK laughs] We're going to be late getting to Ottawa as well. [everyone chuckles] But it's kind of funny because like Anthony said, you're kind of living, you've got one foot in one show and one foot in the other, 'cuz you're half thinking about what you got to do if you win, and then you think what you got to do if you lose. And it's certainly testing your patience.

NK: You said no regrets, both of you, but as you think about how close this was, what does it say to you about what you might do next if things don't go your way?

JR: Well, for me...oh, you can go ahead, Anthony.

NK: The practical things. Jonathan, you?

JR: I've been on an unpaid leave of absence since last August, so it's been almost a year. So, the first thing I'm going to be doing if I lose is strapping up my work boots and rolling up my sleeves and getting back to work.

NK: Well, Jonathan, Anthony, a pleasure speaking with you both. And we'll see if you get that news, finally, tomorrow.

AG: Thank you

JR: All right, thanks for having us.

CH: We reached Conservative candidate Jonathan Rowe in Clarenville and Liberal Anthony Germain in Glovertown, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[R&B]

NBA MVP

Guest: Zach Ferrell

CH: Canada has its second NBA MVP. Yesterday, 26-year-old Shai Gilgeous-Alexander of the Oklahoma City Thunder was named the top player in the league -- two decades after Steve Nash was named MVP in 2005 and 2006. Mr. Gilgeous-Alexander grew up in Hamilton, Ontario. And in a speech yesterday, he thanked his friends, family, and coaches back home in Canada -- as well as his teammates, and the OKC organization. And when it came time to thank his wife, he kind of got emotional.

SOUNDCLIP

SHAI GILGEOUS-ALEXANDER: I'm sorry. I'm so dramatic. Hailey Summers, thank you for everything you are, for me, for our son, Aries. You were the first person to show me what love really meant. [deep breath] Ah, what love really meant, what sacrifice really meant. [sniffle] And I can't wait to spend the rest of this journey called life with you, so thank you for everything. I wouldn't be the man I am, I wouldn't be the player I am, I wouldn't be the father I am without you, and thank you for that. So thank you, everybody.

CH: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander talking to the media yesterday, after being named this year's NBA MVP. His team is currently taking on the Minnesota Timberwolves in the Western Conference finals. And his cousin, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, is playing on that opposing team. Basketball coach Zach Ferrell has known both players since they were kids. The cousins lived with his family when they moved to Chattanooga, Tennessee for their last two years of high school, and enrolled at Hamilton Heights Christian Academy. We reached Zach Ferrell in Melbourne, Florida, where he's now the head coach of the Men's Basketball Program at Eastern Florida State College.

NK: Zach, when Shai and Nickeil were staying with you, sharing a room in Tennessee, I mean, is what you heard there, and what we all heard there, who you knew back then?

ZACH FERRELL: Yes, I mean hearing that clip and watching it yesterday just brings a lot of emotion for sure, as it did Shai and myself. And, like, I immediately get transported back to this image of Shai sitting in my kitchen as close as he could to the Wi-Fi router talking with Hailey [NK chuckles] for hours and hours as their relationship was just starting. And as he mentions Aries, and just thinking about him as a dad now and a husband, and now this accomplishment. I mean, it's just, it's overwhelming in a way to hear that. And then, to think back of that, you know, 16-, 17-year-old kid who was just figuring out life, moved away from his family, and just was so focused on what he wanted to do. And to see him now as the MVP is just, it's overwhelming.

NK: Is this what he planned or dreamt for himself on all levels? And you as well, is this what you saw for him?

ZF: I think this is beyond our wildest dreams. I know that Shai was certainly wanted to be the best basketball player in the world, wanted to play in the NBA, like a lot of kids. But what Shai had was this very unique self-discipline and ability to make his world small so that he could focus on the things that really mattered. And him and Nickeil both came with a very special mindset and a willingness to cut out all things in their life for an opportunity to do something special. And that, for Shai, ended up being, you know, the MVP of the NBA, which is just incredible.

NK: Have you spoken to him yet?

ZF: I have not spoken with him. I did leave him a voice memo that got very emotional, unexpectedly. Just thinking back through those days and through those times, whether it was doing dribbling drills in the driveway, or him playing on the Little Tikes with my son, or going to the gym early in the morning, just your mind gets transported back to those days in a moment like this where you're at the, you know, top of the world. And it just makes you very grateful. And I tell people all the time, like, that I'm so happy that Shai is the person that so many people are looking up to these days in basketball. Not only, of course, in Canada. As a Canadian, he's someone to be looked up to and celebrated, but he's all over the world now. He's considered the best player in the world. And I'm so happy that someone like Shai, who is so genuine and so authentic and is the person that kids are looking up to. And, of course, I have one that's 10 years old that's doing the same thing and just very proud that he's in that position.

NK: He was one years old, your son, right? When, when they were staying with you?

ZF: Yes, he was one. He had just turned one when they moved in. They helped and watched when he took his first steps. And one of my son's very first words that he would say over and over and over again was Shai. [NK chuckles] I mean, just everything was Shai, I think, for a time. And I've sweet videos of them playing on a Tikes in the living room, or him sitting in the seat of a bike with them riding around the neighbourhood. Just a special relationship there, for sure.

NK: Your families are intertwined forever, certainly. What did that experience teach you and give your family?

ZF: Oh my goodness, just, so we were with Shai earlier this year, and we were just looking back. And we, me and my wife, were about the same age as he is now when they came and stayed with us. We were in our late-20s, and we had young kids, young parents, and we have these now two teenage boys that were living with us. And we're trying to help guide them through life while we were trying to figure out life as well.

NK: Keeping that Wi-Fi connection stable. [both laugh]

ZF: Yes, and trying to navigate what it looks like to have teenagers in your house with girlfriends. Or, you know, making sure they're doing their homework and cleaning up their room and just all the things. It was formative for them, but it was definitely formative for our family as well.

NK: So, as the Western Conference finals, as you're watching, we've talked to families who have two sons and people they have connections to. What is it like for you watching Shai and Nickeil?

ZF: I mean, I go back and forth. At moments, I don't know what to do. I don't know who to cheer for and how to cheer. And then, I have moments where it's like this is a win-win all around. It's such a blessing. And I'm definitely trying to settle. It's a win-win. One of them is going to go to the NBA finals no matter what, and that's exciting. And so, it's a range of emotions every day. But overall, just so excited for both of them, and so proud of both of them. And I'm sure it'll be an exciting series all the way to the end.

NK: Zach, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you.

ZF: Yes, thank you so much for having me on. What a blessing it is to share about those guys. And, like Canada, we are so, so proud of them.

NK: Thank you.

CH: Basketball coach Zach Ferrell in Melbourne, Florida.

[ambient]

Part 2: Gaza Aid, Michael Crummey

Gaza Aid

Guest: Amy Low

CH: It's a trickle, when it should be a fire hose. Desperately needed aid is finally getting into Gaza. But humanitarian agencies say it's nowhere near enough. After a 10-week blockade, more than 90 truckloads of emergency supplies made it into the strip earlier this week. Flour, baby food and medical equipment are part of the shipment. And dozens more trucks entered yesterday. Today, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he intends to create large safe zones in Southern Gaza where civilians can receive aid. But it's unclear how fast that will happen. Amy Low is a Canadian emergency room nurse working with Doctors Without Borders in Southern Gaza. And that's where we reached her.

NK: Nurse Low, can you tell us about some of the patients, some of the children, who have been coming into the hospital?

AMY LOW: We're supporting Nassir Pediatric and Maternity Hospital in Khan Yunis, and we have a malnutrition ward there. So, some of the patients that we see that come through that malnutrition ward are quite vulnerable and small, and have been suffering for the whole duration of this conflict. They age range from under six months to five years of age. And obviously, those that are within six months of age have been born during the conflict and haven't had enough nutrition throughout their lives.

NK: What kinds of symptoms are they showing?

AL: The children are just very small. I mean, I don't know if you know the size of children. They're supposed to be born at 2.5 kilograms. Some of them come in at six months weighing only 2.5 kilograms. So, they've been severely malnourished. And then other ones, just failure to thrive. You know, they're quite small. One easy way that I've kind of gotten used to calculating the weight of the babies is if you're two years old, they're probably four or five kilograms, which is quite small. So, they haven't had enough food to eat, and they are quite sick and vulnerable and prone to infection, diarrhea, cough, all of this, which makes their health condition even worse.

NK: You've been there to help a few times now. How have you seen things change, if at all, in each of those visits?

AL: Every time you're here, you don't think it can get worse. And every time that I've come back, the situation has deteriorated. I was here last February over a year ago, then I came back in the summer, and now, it's been nine months since I've been last in Gaza. And this time, what's the starkest thing I've noticed is the lack of supplies that have come in. Supply has always been difficult, but this time it really is shocking. You would see the fruit and vegetable sellers on the side of the street, who used to sell whatever they could find. If it was canned goods, if it was flour, they might have been expensive, but at least there was something. This time when we drove in, in early May, there were very few of these stalls that were open. And the ones that were open were quite devoid of any kind of materials to sell. Like, there was one guy with just one sack of potatoes. Usually, they would have, like, a few cans to sell. I could count the number of cans of beans that they were trying to sell. So, this scarcity of food makes it very difficult to buy the food because the prices go up. I mean, it's supply and demand. One of my colleagues was telling me that she had a hard time finding flour to make bread. Her children were just crying to her, saying, Mommy, I want bread. You know, just bread. And she couldn't find a seller, you know? Once she finally did find a seller of flower, she said that the price was 10 times what it usually is. So, this is what people are struggling with. And like I said, this is one of our colleagues, you know, so these were one of the ones that have a job and have money and could spend it. But it's just impossible.

NK: Have you lost any children who've come into the hospital? Have they died there?

AL: I know that we do have a mortality line list that we do follow on a regular basis, like any other hospital. And also, with some of the security incidents that's been happening in and around the hospital, we haven't been able to access it as easily as we like, to do a proper follow-up.

NK: What kinds of security incidents?

AL: There's shelling around the hospital. There's evacuation happening around the hospital. So, people would get a notification saying that this block has been evacuated. So, people have to move away from that area. So, there's a mass movement of people away from the hospital or wherever, you know, that location is. And also, once that zone is supposedly evacuated, you know, there's shelling in the area. And I think over the last few weeks the Nassar hospital has actually been hit a few times. So, that is devastating for the hospital, you know? I mean, they lose bed capacities, they lose patients, they lose staff, and also materials. The latest hit was in a supply store, you know? So already, supplies aren't coming in. Thankfully, there was no one hurt. But, you know, if you lose all your material and you have no material coming in, this becomes a problem of how to run a hospital?

NK: The United Nations says that just over 90 trucks were allowed to cross into Gaza. The food is said to be distributed, flour initially, bread to come. But the security concerns of the nature you are mentioning, a senior official with the World Food Programme has said that the delays, the most recent delays, arose because the IDF wanted trucks to move along a route aid agencies consider dangerous because there's risk of attack by hungry civilians, as well as armed criminal gangs. What are you hearing on that front, those kinds of concerns in terms of now that the trucks are coming in, getting this to you and the people who need it?

AL: Um, I mean, first thing is that these aren't nearly enough trucks that need to come in. I mean, 90 came in one day, it used to be 600. And then, if you also think of the fact that for over 11 weeks, uh, those 600 trucks a day haven't been coming in, which means, I think, I did the rough calculation of math. That's 42,000 trucks that should have come in these past few months. And now, 90 is coming in. So, it's grossly inadequate. Uh, and then, so again, you know, if these trucks managed to get in, and then you know the zone that they have to go through is considered red, evacuated, it makes it dangerous for them to drive through these areas as well. And so, it makes the delivering aid quite difficult. They really need just to open the border and let the trucks run in freely. I mean I think it's a bit ridiculous and inhumane that a kilometre away, at the border, there are thousands of trucks waiting to come in that could alleviate the suffering of the people inside. And they're just being held there, not allowed to come in.

NK: Nurse Low, I appreciate your time, particularly in the midst of everything you're dealing with. Please take care.

AL: Thank you.

CH: Amy Low is a Canadian emergency room nurse working with Doctors Without Borders in Gaza.

[ambient]

Michael Crummey

Guest: Michael Crummey

CH: In Michael Crummey's novel The Adversary, two Newfoundland siblings fight to come out on top. Which happens to be where the Canadian author is today. But unlike his characters, Mr. Crummey didn't get there through violence and vendettas. He got there through literary excellence -- which has earned him one of the book world's biggest prizes -- the Dublin Award. It honours the best work of fiction in English from anywhere in the world. Here he is accepting the prize.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL CRUMMEY: But of all the unlikely things to have happened in my life as a writer, standing here today as the winner of the Dublin Literary Award is by far the unlikeliest, the most surreal thing that has ever happened to me.

CH: We reached Michael Crummey in Dublin.

NK: Michael, congratulations, first of all.

MICHAEL CRUMMEY: Thank you very much. [NK chuckles] Thank you. [chuckling]

NK: Has it sunk in?

MC: No, not a bit. [NK chuckles] And I've known for, it's one of those awards where they let the winner know ahead of time.

NK: Uh-huh.

MC: So, I've been lying through my teeth to people for about a month now.

NK: A month?! Oh my!

MC: Yeah, I almost gave it away three or four times to different people [NK cuckles] just in conversation about travel and that sort of stuff. So, it's nice not to have to worry about that.

NK: Well, that is a relief. You've described this in your speech, this win, as unlikely and surreal. Why?

MC: Hmm, why? I guess the writing life is really uncertain, and every writer I know works their ass off at it. Everybody works really hard, and it's no guarantee that anything will happen for you, you know, or what will happen for you. So, to have something like this dropped on me, I still can't quite believe it. It's one of the largest, most prestigious literary prizes in the world, and it doesn't seem like I should have any connection to that whatsoever, to be honest. [both chuckle]

NK: Might this change things for you, the financial award, the prestige of this award, the international nature of this award? What will that mean for you, do you think?

MC: Yeah, I mean, I'm not really sure, to be honest. I had to do a little interview when I was shortlisted, and I said I was too old for anything to really change my life. And I think to a certain extent that's true, but my writing life, I think the impact will be immeasurable, you know, in terms of people knowing my name in other countries and possibly looking at publication in other places where I hadn't been published before. And the financial side of it is significant, you know? And that will buy me time. I quit my day job when I was about 35, and it always felt temporary. I always thought I'm going to end up at a corner store selling bingo cards at some point. And, you know, I'm sneaking up on retirement age, so I might just make it.

NK: I think you just might, Michael, [MC laughs] just maybe. The Adversary, for those who haven't read it, is about, well, it's about a lot of things, but at the heart of it, a brother and sister in a northern outpost of Newfoundland and Labrador, family feuds, sibling rivalry, but the whole community gets dragged into this battle as well. This is, you know, Newfoundland and Labradors is at the heart of your story. So, for it to resonate with people outside of Canada, outside of Newfoundland and Labrador, what does that bring to you?

MC: Um, I'm surprised that anybody outside of Newfoundland and Labrador has ever read any of my books [NK chuckles] because they are so specific to the placed, particularly in terms of language and history and that sort of thing. But it is really gratifying to know that people from anywhere in Canada and in the U.S. and in some countries in the European Union have found something in there that speaks to them.

NK: You said it took you six months to write, but in a way, 40 years, really. What did you mean by that?

MC: Well, people were threatening to, maybe this is too strong language for the CBC, to kick the [bleeped] out of me, saying I had written it so quickly. But, of course, this book, sits on top of the 40 years I've been writing, and all the things that I've learned on the way to being able to write a book like this. So, in one way, it just kind of flew out of me. And in other ways, I've been crawling toward it for a long, long time.

NK: You told our colleague, Shelagh Rogers, that the brother in this feud, Abe Strap, resembles a certain U.S. President, current U. S. President. How so?

MC: [chuckling] Abe is actually based on a real historical figure in Newfoundland from the late 1700s, a merchant, who was a bully and a braggart and a drunkard, and someone who was all appetite. And just kind of bullied his way through life, and through everybody's lives around him. So, in that sense, he's exactly like a certain U.S. president. Although this is a book set in a tiny Newfoundland outport 200 years ago, I felt like I was writing about the world we're all living in. And writing about what happens when the worst of who we are as human beings makes its way into positions of power, and what are the consequences when that's left unchecked. What happens to the people who are in the orbit of those black holes is how I think of them. And the entire story of the novel, really, is about that, which means it's a fairly dark book. But it was my response to the world I felt like I, and all of us, have been living in the last eight, 10, 12 years.

NK: Before you got up on stage and gave the speech that our listeners heard a bit of, they played a video from the librarian back home in Newfoundland and Labrador at the library that nominated you for this award. What does that mean to you?

MC: I love libraries. They changed my life. You know, like, I grew up in Buckins, which is a small mining town in central Newfoundland, 70 kilometers down a dead-end road. There was no bookstore. Books were at the library. And I can still place myself in that room. I used to spend every Saturday morning there when I was a kid. And in some ways, that library made me who I am. I would not be here today without that. And the fact that this is an award that is run by libraries and librarians, and that all the books are nominated by libraries, and that Newfoundland and Labrador Public Libraries put my book forward, and one of the people involved in the award told me the Newfoundland and Labrador Public Libraries are one of them most consistent of all the libraries to nominate books. And I love the fact that they're out there pushing us and sending us off into the world.

NK: [chuckling] Celebrating, celebrating you.

MC: Yeah, yeah it does feel like that. And I've always said low expectations are a writer's best friend. [both chuckle] And that gets you through a lot of low patches. But this feels like a real celebration that involves way more people than just me.

NK: I wish you congratulations again, Michael, and I wish you a very long high patch from here on in. Thank you for this.

MC: [warm laughter] I'll keep my fingers crossed. [both chuckle] Thank you for talking.

NK: Pleasure, take care.

MC: Okay, bye-bye.

CH: Michael Crummey is the winner of this year's Dublin Literary Award for his novel The Adversary. He’s in Dublin.

[banjo!!]

LR: Semicolons

CH: I don't have to tell you that we have a serious problem on our hands. I'll just come out and say it: it's the semicolon. Earlier this week we told you about studies in the U.K. that found a clear decline in semicolon use, not to mention semicolon appreciation. Both of which are deeply disturbing. So, we asked you if you were emotionally prepared to share your thoughts. And some of you, bravely, were. Phyllis Webster wrote: "As an English instructor at The Collegiate at the University of Winnipeg, I had wonderful fun with the lesson 'Everything you wanted to know about semicolons'. I had teams of students writing sentences using this noble punctuation mark and gave out prizes such as chocolate bars or loonies for the most elegant or the funniest contribution. (I was the judge, of course.) We all had fun and I soon noticed that students began to surprise me by writing sentences which were long, elegant. and accurate." Now that's how to teach. It's also what to teach. Elizabeth Wallace added: "How wonderful to live in a country where my radio asks my views on semicolons! As an academic editor I will defend the semicolon to the very last exclamation mark. It's the perfect fulcrum on which to balance two equally weighted clauses. The committed team player in following instructions from the mighty colon. A delicious test for all those who claim to be grammarians. Yum." Great points, Elizabeth, I'm a little uncomfortable with the phrase "the mighty colon". Nicole Gombay wrote: "Another instance of the Disappearing Semi-Colon is as a separator of listed features after a colon. Remember the old days when a list was as follows: a (semicolon); b (semicolon); and c? Somehow we've replaced them with bullets, none of which is now followed by a semi-colon." I absolutely do remember those days, Nicole. They were great, semicolon, important, semicolon, and correct. Period. And Laurel Borisenko summed it up succinctly: "I like semi-colons; I find them useful." Well, so do I. And so do these callers.

SOUNDCLIP

[my one true love; the underappreciated Talkback beep]

KAREN SHOST: Hello, this is Karen Shost calling from Minneapolis, Minnesota. I teach writing in an adult vocational program, and the semicolon is my favorite punctuation mark. And I teach all my students how to use it. And they all know the difference between a semicolon and the loathsome, pervasive comma splice that most people use because they don't know how to do the semicolon. If I have anything to do with it, it will not be going extinct in Minnesota.

[Minnesota-style Talkback beep, oh, dontcha know]

CHRISTOPHER THOMAS: Hello, my name is Christopher Thomas. I want to say that I'm making my living currently, or partly making my living, by copy editing [me too!]. And I can tell you that presses now, and I believe the venerable Chicago Manual of Style itself, actively discourages the use of the semicolon, with the result that a paragraph consists of a set of usually choppy sentences. And actually, as to grammar, the most beleaguered part of speech now is the preposition. I'll try to think of some examples and call back. Meanwhile, let's stick to the semicolon. [phone rings] My other line is ringing. Take care.

SAM TERSHON-BRABASSON: Well, hi there. My name is Sam Tershon-Brabasson, and I'm calling from Ottawa. I've actually found that semicolons are a great way to cut down on the length of a sentence while still including a little bit of pizzazz, if you will, by including some more detail to add more oomph to that sentence than it otherwise would look. I'm also a teaching assistant at Queen's University, and I'm happy to share that I actually see a lot of semicolons still being used in the papers that I'm reading from a plethora of undergraduate students and graduate students alike. So, just to mention that there is still hope for the beloved semicolon. And I am looking forward to continuing to tacitly support it by including it in my written work into the future from here, too.

CH: Karen, your dedication is appreciated. Christopher, thank you for pointing out what I've long suspected about the Chicago Manual of Style -- it's pure garbage. And Sam, this is very encouraging news, semicolon, thank you for your efforts. And thanks to everyone who reached out. If you have anything to add, please call Talkback at 416-205-5687, or email us at aih@cbc.ca.

[glam pop]

Iceberg Tourism

CH: Twillingate, Newfoundland and Labrador is known as "the Iceberg Capital of the World". So every year around this time, tourists make the trek to catch a glimpse of the glacial giants -- some of which are as tall as a skyscraper and as wide as two football fields -- as they glide by. Twillingate local Pat Roberts spoke to the CBC about this year's tourist season in Twillingate, where one iceberg grounded a stone's throw from her house.

SOUNDCLIP

PAT ROBERTS: It's been quite busy. [both chuckle] It's being just like the one vehicle after another, after another. You know, and it's really nice talking to these people from all over the world. I was sort of out there very being, like, a traffic cop. [both chuckle] Please don't block off this street. Please don't block off this street.

GAVIN SIMMS: Yeah, I guess people are just parking wherever they find a free spot.

PR: Wherever they want. And, you know, and don't get me wrong, I love seeing the tourists. I think it's wonderful; I love talking to people. But, you know, they don't follow the rules of the road sometimes.

GS: Yeah.

PR: That was creating a little bit of issue. It is what it is. [cuckling]

GS: Maybe a bit of signage. Or maybe you can approach the town about creating that traffic cop position.

PR: [laughing] I don't think I want to apply for that. [both chuckle] but you are right, you know, it might be worthwhile. because this year, I've noticed already the number of tours, and I'm thinking it might be ours because we got more people coming to our part of the world now instead of going to like, you know, to the United States or whatever the case may be.

GS: Maybe so.

PR: But it's definitely been a very busy, busy spot this last couple of weeks.

CH: Pat Roberts of Twillingate, Newfoundland and Labrador, talking to Gavin Simms on The St. John's Morning Show today.

[lounge jazz]

Part 3: Photographer Arrested, New Hampshire Bakery

Continent Pilot

CH: Ethan Guo has more than one very ambitious goal right now. He's hoping to raise $1 million for cancer research and treatment. And he's doing that while attempting a record solo flight to all seven continents. He's also doing that while being 19. Mr. Guo is making his flight in a Cessna 182. And the journey, which he began nearly a year ago, comes after half a decade of planning, training, and fundraising. Ethan Guo spoke to the CBC yesterday, after landing in Vancouver this week.

SOUNDCLIP

ETHAN GUO: Slightly over halfway done; I'm on my fifth continent, heading down to my last two final continents, South America and Antarctica.

GLORIA MACARENKO: Tell us, how did you come up with this idea and this personal challenge, I guess?

EG: Wow, I think when I was 13, I had my first-ever experience with aviation. I took a flight lesson and I thought it was very interesting, but I never had a chance to really explore it because of the costs and the time commitment. And so, actually, nothing happened for many years, until I was learning a lot about business, and one thing I found really interesting was that if you're able to get people's attention, you're able to transfer that to something else very easily. And so, I started planning, I started thinking, and then I looked back and I realized that, oh, you know, I really like the aviation. And then, it turns out the youngest person to ever fly around the world was maybe around 20 at that time. And I was like, oh, I'm 13. I have almost a decade to beat that record. I could definitely beat it. I mean, I was very much delusional and naive. But in my mind, I was like, oh, I could definitely do it. So I was, like, if I can tell the world I'm going to fly around in the world, then I could get sponsors. And with these sponsors, then I could afford to get my pilot's license and actually fly around the world. So, that was, like, my most original idea.

GM: I see, but where does your cousin's story come into it?

EG: Absolutely. So years later, while during the final stages of preparation to fly around the world, my cousin was diagnosed with stage four blood cancer. And he's very close to me. So, I grew up with him and spent quite a lot of time with him. He's less than a year older than me. And he got blood cancer. It was just very random; he was about to go off to college. And he ended up not being able to go to college and go into treatment. So, I started talking to patients and doctors and administrators, hospitals saying, hey, you know, there's not much I can do, but I'm getting ready to go on this big journey. How can I contribute? How can help out? And eventually, I reached out to St. Jude Children's Hospital and we came up with this plan. One, of course, to raise a million dollars on the fight against cancer. But, at the same time, as I travel around the world, I'll visit hospitals across the world to showcase the global fight against cancers, to show how we're working on this together, to show this is a major problem, and how we should continue working together on this.

CH: 19-year-old American pilot, Ethan Guo, speaking with CBC host Gloria Macarenko on the show On the Coast.

[ambient]

Photographer Arrested

Guest: Isaac Wright

CH: You might have come across Isaac Wright's work before. He goes by the name "Drift" -- and he takes photos featuring breathtaking views of cities, lights, and buildings, taken from hundreds of metres above the ground. Mr. Wright's work pushes the boundaries of what is physically possible, and past the boundaries of what's safe -- as he scales everything from bridges and skyscrapers, to the Empire State Building and Great Pyramid of Giza. And last week, he was set to achieve new heights of a different sort, with the launch of his first solo gallery show at Manhattan's Robert Mann Gallery. But the event took an unexpected turn, when New York Police Department officers arrived to arrest Mr. Wright for trespassing. We reached Isaac Wright in New York City.

NK: Isaac, police arrested you at the opening of your show. Why do you think they chose that place and that time to do that?

ISAAC WRIGHT: You know, when they put me in the cruiser, they told me that, you know, they had been given orders to arrest me at the beginning of the opening. And, um, they chose to arrest at the end of the night instead because they really enjoyed the show. And I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they were just following orders. And, uh, I guess they said that it was the one place that they knew that I would be, so I don't know.

NK: It sounds like, I mean, were they hesitant or were they trying to soften the blow because they weren't sure about doing this?

IW: No, I mean, they were, you know, there was two undercovers sitting around the show for at least a couple hours. You know, they didn't do it in a manner that was, yeah, you know, in any way like any of my prior arrests, you know, at gunpoint while I was unarmed or anything like that. It wasn't abrasive. It was, uh, you know, if that's what they had to do, then that's what they had to do.

NK: Interesting, given that this is about your art or how you take, how you capture those images. The undercover aspect, the undercover officers, what did they tell you about why they felt that necessary?

IW: I really wasn't told anything at all. They cited that, you know, the Empire State Building had put out a complaint for my arrest. But until then, I wasn't told anything. I wasn't read any rights. I was just arrested at the show while I was talking to people that were there for my art.

NK: So, you're charged with criminal trespassing in the third degree, a class B misdemeanor under New York state law. You mentioned the Empire State Building. That gives us a sense, and our listeners heard a little bit about the kind of images you capture. Can you tell us about the photographs that are at the heart of these charges?

IW: I have made a career and a living from taking photos from places that, generally, people cannot get to or access. And I think that there's extreme beauty in a lot of these places. And I think that I challenge people to see the world in a very different light.

NK: A different vantage point in more ways than one, a dangerous vantage points as well. Why do you scale those heights and take those risks?

IW: I think dangerous is kind of subjective, you know? I guess for me, it's probably the most calm place on Earth. You know, I do suffer from bipolar disorder and my work's helped a lot with that. And you're in a place where you have the world to yourself, or a corner of it, for a very limited amount of time. And it's quiet. It's removed from all of the ugliness that we experienced in the day-to-day on the ground. And also, it's a reclamation of bodily agency in a world where so many of the places where we can actually have a moment to breathe are being taken away, you know? Or a place where you're not being surveilled, or, you know, and these places are few to none now.

NK: You mentioned being arrested before for your work. Back in 2020, Cincinnati police issued a nationwide warrant. They closed a highway to track you down, and you were eventually released on bail. But you had to spend four months in jail for that. You faced this kind of thing in other states. And I think people might know that artists can face arrest or allegations. I'm thinking the tightrope walker decades ago, Keith Haring. The New York Times piece that featured you talked about them as well, but often there are finds or things that would be described as, you know, a quote/unquote slap on the wrist. Why do you think this keeps happening to you?

IW: You know, with the Cincinnati police, that was, just to put it plainly, like it was insane. People have speculated, you know, was the detective racist? Was the detective just on a power trip? And I still don't have those answers. But I think that my work is just a direct embodiment of really challenging a system that's crippled by fear, especially after 9/11. You know, I think what's happening in New York, like, the charge is reasonable. It's not like a second-degree felony like Ohio was trying to charge me with that just didn't make any sense.

NK: You mentioned 9/11, given where we're at in the world, unfortunately, there are security concerns and there are threats, and people want threats to be taken seriously. So, if someone sees something, you're supposed to say something. We hear people, especially in the U.S., say that. So, can you see that at least in the initial stage, can you see where people might be coming from that they're concerned? They don't know what's going on, so they have to report it.

IW: I can see that, but I also can speak to the fact that none of our buildings and critical infrastructure is nearly as secure as people think that it is. Like, the security that we're sold is a myth, and it's more about controlling people than it is about actually helping people in my mind. Yeah, I don't know. I do understand people's concern, I want to say that.

NK: Do you, given that you've gone through this a few times now, obviously it's not going to stop you, it doesn't seem like it, from continuing to do the work that you want to do, and that is important for you to do and to capture. But will it change how you go about it?

IW: One thing is that my work is actually going through a lot of changes right now, and I can't really speak to what I'll be doing in the future. I might be doing something completely different. You know, I'm more concerned about creating the work. I'm not really concerned about breaking the law. Like, I don't have anything to prove, [chuckle] you know? I just want to, I want to create the images. Maybe one day it will be seen as groundbreaking, but I guess we'll see.

NK: I'm glad we could speak, Isaac, thank you.

IW: Yeah, thank you so much for your time and for listening to me.

CH: Isaac Wright takes pictures at the tops of buildings across the United States -- which got him arrested at his first gallery show. He's in New York City.

[R&B]

FOA: Airlifted Swiss Cow

CH: When the ground beneath your feet starts to feel a little shaky, sometimes, the only way out is up. And the same goes for hooves. That's what dozens of cows in the Swiss Alps discovered this week, when they were airlifted out of an Alpine village facing a threat of landslides. Authorities in Blatten, Switzerland, closed hiking trails, installed equipment to monitor the state of the shifting slope, and ordered a full evacuation -- including livestock. Most of which was able to walk away, or be driven away. But some cows, confused ones, were carried off by helicopter. This is not our first story about animals left helpless due to shifts in their environment. In 2023, Nil spoke to Graeme Parker, who was part of the rescue team that helped Fiona -- who was known as "Britain's loneliest sheep". Fiona was left stranded for more than two years at the bottom of a cliff in the Scottish Highlands.

SOUNDCLIP

GRAME PARKER: So, this was on a remote coastline in the very north highlands of Scotland. And the sheep, who's now called Fiona, was at the bottom of around the 630-foot cliff. The seashore itself was extremely rugged, so the Coast Guard and people had refused to actually access the beach and be able to extract her themselves.

NK: So, what were the logistics involved? How many people? How many hours? How did you get her up?

GP: So, surprisingly quickly, actually. And this story first broke around a month ago. And then, because she'd been in the news so much, the farmer wrongly, people assumed that the farmer wasn't doing anything about it. But in reality, the farmer couldn't ask anybody to go down there because of the risk of life.

NK: Right.

GP: A friend of mine called on Thursday afternoon. And by Friday evening, we were eight hours from my home. There were five of us in total, and we kind of hatched a plan.

NK: But how did you do it? You didn't just walk down there and walk with her up, right? [both chuckle]

GP: We didn't just walk down there, not quite. NK chuckles] I wish we could have. First, we were going to use a jetski with a rope attached to the back. It was soon apparent that we couldn't do that. So, we had an all-terrain buggy, and we bought a couple of huge long ropes, attached to the winch of the buggy, and then we would climb down, the three of us. It wasn't too treacherous on the way down. It's the kind of thing we've done, probably as kids, when we shouldn't have done. I must admit Tommy Wilson -- who kind of headed the team -- he is fearful of heights, so he had a few kind of scary moments on his way down, but --

NK: Yeah, that cliff is not for the faint of heart, certainly. So you make it down. And how did Fiona receive you?

GP: Well, luckily, there is a tunnel system of caves on that cove. So, we knew roughly where we thought we would find her. And when we got down there, sure enough, Fiona was in the cave itself, stood right in the middle of the cave in a little patch of sunlight that was coming through the craggy hole in the ceiling of the cave. And luckily, she just backed away gently and didn't take an alternative route. And as soon as we got there, she comes right down.

NK: That image you paint of her standing in the light, it made me feel like any smart diva, she knows find the light. Find the light.

GP: [chuckling] That was it, yeah. Once we caught her, it was a case of getting her out of the cave and then back up the 700-foot or so cliff face and hillside. The ropes we got weren't quite long enough. So, it was, it was a huge amount of effort for the first 100, 150 feet. And then after that, we were able to actually put her into effectively a huge hammock and tie that to a rope and then guide her safely up the hillside.

CH: That was sheep rescuer Graeme Parker talking to Nil in 2023.

[indie rock]

New Hampshire Bakery

Guest: Sean Young

CH: It began as a high school art project. And it ended in a years-long legal battle that posed such profound questions as "what is art?" In 2021, Sean Young took over Leavitt's Country Bakery in Conway, New Hampshire. And not long after that -- as we've told you before -- a group of high school students painted a mural above the shop, depicting sunbeams, a mountain range, and a variety of pastries. It seemed delightful. Until the town began putting pressure on Mr. Young to take the mural down, arguing that it constituted advertising, and therefore violated Conway's sign rules. Here's some of what Mr. Young told us at the time.

SOUNDCLIP

SEAN YOUNG: We took over an existing business that had been going for 45 years. So definitely, had a lot of equipment to upgrade and a lot of work to be done on the building. And never did I think that that our mural painted by the high school students would be our biggest problem. [chuckling].

CH: Sean Young talking to Nil in 2023. This week, a federal judge ruled the town's efforts to have the mural removed were a violation of Mr. Young's free speech rights. So, we reached him again today in North Conway, New Hampshire.

NK: Sean, you were surprised that this turned into an issue at all. That's what you told me the last time we spoke, as our listeners heard. Two years later, are you surprised it took this long to get a resolution?

SEAN YOUNG: I am. It took, geez, almost three years. So, it went through the local courts, through another court, all the way to the federal court. So, I was, yes, I was definitely surprised it took this long.

NK: In the decision, the judge said there was a, quote, complete disconnect between what the ordinance purports to regulate and the town's enforcement, unquote. How are people reacting?

SY: Everything is positive reactions. I mean, everyone in the town has been kind of going through this with us the last three years. So, [clears throat] honestly, almost, like, I can't think of any negative reactions. I think everyone's happy it's done with and more happy that we get to keep the art.

NK: And what about the students who created that art?

SY: So, again, it was like three years ago, so most of them are graduated, a few have moved out of town. I did speak with one, so she was really happy. She lives down in Massachusetts now. But yeah, it's been universally a great reaction. Everyone is happy.

NK: The judge also, as you know, noted town officials conducted themselves in good faith through the whole process. The rule is in place to manage, we know, a tourism boom. To remind our listeners, it was a zoning issue because of the size of the sign, initially. Do you, where do you, have your feelings changed at all, in terms of what started all of this?

SY: No. I mean, I don't think that they had bad intentions necessarily. I think the big problem was their ordinance was so broad and so vague that they needed to change it, or they need to enforce it has written. And that's what the judge said that, you know, they do not enforce it as written. They kind of pick and they choose who they enforce it against when they were enforcing it. And that was really the problem, there they're enforcing of it was unconstitutional.

NK: And was this a case of just the legal process taking its time to do what it needs to do, but things on the ground were OK? Or was there tension with town officials and others who maybe were siding with the town?

SY: No, there really wasn't tension. I guess we still have like three of the town officials that are regulars that come into our bakery every week or every morning. So, there really wasn't too much animosity. You know, I guess whenever there's posts on social media, you know, and everyone outside gets involved, the people tend to have stronger feelings when they're writing it on social [both chuckle] media, I guess, so, you know, a lot of the people that weren't directly involved with the case seemed very passionate in one way or another.

NK: [chuckling] You guys are just sipping your coffee and people are losing their minds.

SY: Right, exactly.

NK: They've never seen it. But what were those first orders or those first coffees like after the ruling?

SY: Yeah, I mean, pretty much just people are congratulating us. We must have had, today was the first day we were open since the rulings, so probably 60, 70 people mentioned it. [NK chuckles] So yeah, quite a few. Yeah, and I've been getting calls here from across the country. I just got off the phone with someone from Arizona congratulating us. So, people have been following it.

NK: Well, why do you think it hit such a nerve?

SY: I think, you know, once you get into the First Amendment and restricting people's freedom, or treating people fairly, I think that's really what struck a nerve.

NK: And do you know from town officials whether they're going to change anything with the ordinance or how it is executed or adhered to, or not adhered to, from this point on? Has this decision, you know, do you think it will have an impact beyond your mural getting to stay as is?

SY: Yes, I think they, so I don't know, I'm not on any of the boards, but I do believe that they are planning to change the ordinance, so it's more easily enforceable as it's written. You know, really, the biggest problem is it's written saying commercial and residential, and you can't use any kind of form or colour or graphic to convey a message of any sort. So, um, you know, then we start getting into, if it's residential, can people fly flags on their house? Can people put up artwork in their own, you know, in their own yards? And I think, uh, the wording of the ordinance, unless they're enforcing against every resident and every business, that's where they got in trouble.

NK: So, what is next? Just business as usual, orders up, or celebrations, maybe even more artwork?

SY: You know, possibly, I don't know. I had originally talked with the art teacher when this whole thing started, and there was some talk about it becoming an annual art project. But, you know, it's been three years now. So, you know, putting it down and replacing it with new senior art projects would be a possibility. If that was the case, you know, if it could have been down years ago if we would have just done the annual art project. But I don't know, we're just kind of happy it's over with, and it's been a long three years, and happy we won. And, yeah, we're going to definitely do a little celebration with the town.

NK: And what's that party going to be all about?

SY: So, honestly, myself and my bakers, we've all been out of town the last week. So this is, you know, our first day open and back. Yeah, we're just trying to settle back in. And so, we haven't figured out exactly yet, but we will soon.

NK: I bet you will. Well, Sean, enjoy the legal victory, enjoy the celebrations, and I'm happy we could speak again. Thank you.

SY: Great, thank you so much.

CH: Sean Young is the owner of Leavitt's Country Bakery in Conway, New Hampshire. That's where we reached him.

K.D. Lang Country Music Hall Of Fame

CH: K.D. Lang is a homegrown hero. And not that anyone needed proof, but now the world-famous musician has a plaque in the Canadian Country Music Hall of Fame to really make it clear. She was in Calgary yesterday at the National Music Centre to put her name plate up. And afterwards,z she talked to Lorne McGinnis.

SOUNDCLIP

K.D. LANG: I just placed my brick upside down, purposely, on the wall.

LOREN MCGINNIS: Well, Okay. What made you go upside down?

KL: Just to be different. You know, I'm always looking for ways to ruffle feathers.

LM: Now, what's the significance of this being a specific country music honour? Because obviously, you know, what you've created and shared has crossed and bent all kinds of genres. But this moment, we're focused on country music and your contribution to that in Canada.

KL: Yeah, well, you know, I very, very distinctly kept my focus, country music, for the first, I don't know, seven or eight years. And that was really an authentic offering of what I experienced as a child. I never liked country music as a kid, but I...I was surrounded by it, and I was surrounded by farmers and ranchers and people who lived in the country. So, I understood the Canadian take on country music, the influences from the Europeans and the Irish and the polkas and the, you know, all sorts of things that influenced country music from where I was from. So, I found it a very, very rich and fertile place to create my authentic offering.

LM: Well, I'm struck by the idea that, you know, you didn't necessarily love country music growing up, even though it was all around you. I mean, you respond to this in just such a way, but you know your politics, your activism, your creativity, your sexuality, it's been a challenge to some country fans. And that's for them to chew on, I suppose, but I'm thinking about these moments in your life of reconciliation with country music, with the genre and with the fandom. Is that happening for you now?

KL: Yes, I think that music and art is such a great vehicle for uniting people, and focusing on joy and commonalities. And yeah, I'm different. I am different from a lot of people, but I also have something in common with probably everyone, given that we're humans, and we like food and water and love and safety. So yeah, I've tried to focus on the commonality and what binds us together than really than what sets us apart.

LM: Did anybody give you a hard time about hanging your brick upside down?

KL: Well, people pointed it out. But I'm sure, [chuckle] I'm sure they're going to, it's probably already put corrected, but I was just being a jester.

CH: K.D. Lang speaking with CBC Calgary host Lauren McGuinness.

The AIH Transcript For May 22, 2025

Social Sharing