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The AIH transcript for May 27, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening, I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

TS: Tonight:

NK: Crowning achievement. We'll hear from AFN National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak about why she believes today's Throne Speech was an important victory for Indigenous people in Canada -- and for all treaty peoples.

TS: The earlier, the better -- for getting better. Every minute that sepsis goes untreated increases the risk it will be fatal. Now, a team of researchers in Canada is developing a portable detection device to predict a patient's sepsis risk, and save valuable time.

NK: Band-aid solution. A controversial, U.S.-backed organization that works with armed, private contractors begins giving out food packages to desperate Gazans. But a longtime aid worker says the chaos that ensued proves the plan is deeply flawed and inhumane.

TS: Only tin will tell. In the New Zealand parliament, bills that aren't part of the government's legislative agenda still have a chance to be advanced -- and that chance comes in the form of an old cookie tin that one official tells us embodies nothing less than democracy itself.

NK: Pasta the point of no return. We’ll speak with the 22-year-old who is closing in on completing the quest he first started at 10 years old: to visit every Old Spaghetti Factory location -- all of them -- in the world.

TS: And...exit strategy. Turkey gets serious about airplane etiquette -- promising to fine passengers who stand and crowd the aisles before their rightful turn to disembark.

TS: As It Happens, the Tuesday Edition. Radio that anticipates some seated debates.

[theme]

Part 1: King Visit: First Nations, Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, NZ Bingo Bills

King Visit: First Nations

Guest: Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak

TS: For the first time in nearly 50 years, the British monarch delivered the government's speech from the throne today. Speaking for nearly 30 minutes, King Charles relayed Liberal promises on reducing spending, cutting taxes, establishing new national parks, enhancing border security, and more. But for one group of attendees, the most critical part of his speech came about 20 minutes in.

SOUNDCLIP

KING CHARLES: The government will be a reliable partner to Indigenous peoples, upholding its fundamental commitment to advancing reconciliation. Central to this commitment is the creation of long-term wealth and prosperity with Indigenous peoples. As Canada moves forward with nation-building projects, the government will always be firmly guided by the principle of free, prior, and informed consent.

TS: Some of what King Charles had to say in today's Throne Speech -- regarding Indigenous peoples in Canada. The words were the government's, not his own. But the fact that he said them was significant for many First Nations, Inuit and Métis people. Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak is national chief of the Assembly of First Nations and was in Ottawa for the speech. That's where we reached her.

NK: Chief, Before those words, there was also a land acknowledgement from King Charles. I wonder what hearing all of that, I mean, do those words hold any meaning for you?

CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: Oh, absolutely. Look, free, prior, and informed consent, that mention is a huge win for First Nations. It's an unqualified statement. It is a commitment for the whole of this government's life. And so, I just think it was a remarkable moment in history. And I think it signals to the provinces that you don't trample over First Nations anymore. And you're going to have to make sure that you're working with First Nations, that you are talking to First Nations, and that you're consulting fully and wholly with First Nations people. Gone are the days of trampling over First Nations rights. And I just think that it was such a turning point for this country today.

NK: And, of course, as you know, and to remind our listeners, this is a speech written by our government; it was delivered by the King. To hear the monarch, the Crown, that first colonized Canada say that, what was the importance in that part of it?

CWN: Well, it was important. I met with the King one on one last night, you know, to talk about the importance of how this country was created to begin with, was with First Nations people. And we built this country together as equals. And we started off our relationship as treaty partners. Sadly, you know, a decade and some later, Parliament introduced the Indian Act to try and supersede and push First Nations aside. We have a lot to work through in this country. But certainly, very optimistic, very forward thinking, and I want to commend the Sovereign for a great speech today.

NK: It strikes me, Chief, as you describe that scene, sitting across from King Charles, both of your ancestors signed these treaties together. In your case, your great-great-grandfather, Chief Richard Woodhouse, and in the King's case, his great-great-great-grandmother, Queen Victoria. Did you talk about that?

CWN: We did talk about that. And I told him, I said, you know, we have these treaty medals. Many are lost now, there's probably maybe a maybe a dozen or less of the originals from the 1800s. And, you know, we talked about his grandmother and my ancestor and his ancestor. And we're here in this moment. It was a remarkable moment last night. And, you know, our families had come together, nobody ever had wars with each other, we said that we would live in peace and coexist with each other in a good way and in a respectful way. And I know that from the First Nations perspective that we always talk about the depth of a plow, that we share the depth above plow of the land across this country. And anything under that, let's talk about that. We can have the best country around the world, but you have to make sure you work with First Nations people, make sure your picking up the phone and talking to them right away, not as an afterthought.

NK: There are, as you well know, other Indigenous leaders who were not able to secure an audience with King Charles, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations Vice Chief David Pratt spoke about that yesterday when he was speaking to reporters about treaty relationships.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID PRATT: It was meant to be a respectful relationship, where we would continue to live our lives, practice our treaty and inherent rights of hunting, trapping, fishing, and trade amongst one another. It was not meant to, what it is today, [clapping] which is the oppression of our people. So, we want to remind the King, our chiefs want to see him. Our chiefs wanna see the King to remind him of his obligations under treaty.

NK: What do you say, Chief Woodhouse Nipanak, to those leaders across the country, Indigenous leaders, who feel they have been excluded from the nation-to-nation conversations happening during this visit?

CWN: Oh, look, I think that that's valid. I mean, everybody, you know, wants to see the King. We all want to see the King. I stressed the importance to His Majesty that, you know, we want a bigger audience with him in the months ahead because it's such an exciting time for First Nations. And I can hear the frustration in Chief Pratt's words, and I understand that. I come from a First Nation as well. I know how difficult life has been for First Nations in this country when we should be doing more well than, you know, instead of living in poverty, right? A lot of our people live in poverty, and it shouldn't be when we're in our own homelands. Something basic like the banking system, for instance. Allowing First Nations to be part of the banking systems wholly is something that we have to talk about in this country. And a lot of people don't realize being under the Indian Act how limiting that can be. And that wasn't the intent of treaty. Treaty was signed years before the Indian Act, and the Indian Act was brought in later.

So, I know that we have a complex relationship in this country, but we have to work through those issues and make this country a better place and a more just society for all people including First Nations.

NK: And in terms, Chief, of what the Crown should, or could, do potentially in terms of dealing with some other issues, including what First Nations leaders from Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba have been raising, their concerns about this idea of Western alienation, the prospect of a referendum on Alberta's sovereignty, certainly making headlines. We've spoken to a chief on this program as well about their concerns about what they're seeing and hearing from Alberta Premier Danielle Smith. What could or should the Crown do in terms of addressing that issue in your view?

CWN: Look, I think today's statement on free, prior, and informed consent is a good starting point. I think that the provinces, if they're smart, will realize they're gonna have to work with First Nations people. And they know them within their territories. Go and speak with them. If you're gonna start a project or you're going to create legislation or bills that infringe on treaty and inherent rights of First Nations to people, First Nations aren't going to stand for that anymore. And so, I just think today was a remarkable turning point.

NK: Chief Woodhouse Nepenac, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

CWN: Thank you.

TS: Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak is national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. We reached her in Ottawa.

[ambient]

Gaza Humanitarian Foundation

Guest: Ahmed Bayram

CH: Today, thousands of Gazans made a rush to grab packages of food aid. Israeli soldiers fired warning shots as people smashed through fences surrounding a distribution centre. The aid was being given out by a controversial U.S. and Israeli-backed humanitarian organization called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation or GHF. It uses private contractors to give out supplies in specially designated, military controlled sites. Independent humanitarian groups and the United Nations have condemned the plan, which they say restricts aid to one part of the strip -- and violates humanitarian principles of neutrality. Israel says the plan is the only way to prevent Hamas from stealing aid supplies. Ahmed Bayram is media advisor for Norwegian Refugee Council. We reached him in Amman, Jordan.

NK: Ahmed, what have you heard from your colleagues, the staff in Gaza, about just what happened as people tried to get these GHF food packages?

AHMED BAYRAM: My colleagues describe chaotic scenes as people storm the distribution centre. Obviously, these people have been cramming into four or five narrow corridors, which is where they're supposed to cross in order to reach the top of the line and receive their food packages. Of course, you know, almost 90 days later, desperation amongst the people in Gaza is at a boiling point.

NK: ninety days since Israel started blocking any aid from getting in?

AB: Exactly. And so, people were probably for the first time getting their hands on food parcels. And, yeah, the scene quickly descended into chaos. The fences were knocked down, and windows and doors, and, you know, people storming the scene, and food was taken away. It was obviously hard to control. I've also heard about, you know, warning shots being fired in the air, helicopters hovering above

NK: In addition to the kind of narrow spaces that you're describing, what else would people have had to do to obtain one of these food packages?

AB: Yes, I mean, first of all, they would have come from miles away. Don't forget, this happened in Rafa, which is the southernmost city in Gaza. Obviously, what used to be a city. It's been, you know, a lot of this city has been flattened and emptied of its people. And so, people were asked now to walk back. That's our main issue with the plan, it's actually forcing people to go to great lengths, dangerous lengths, to receive any aid.

NK: The Associated Press and its reporting also describe scenes of panic as the warning shots were fired. And in that reporting says the majority of people who came ultimately left empty-handed. You work for an organization that organizes aid deliveries. What would normally happen? What would you, your organization, and others have done differently?

AB: Let us be clear here, aid has never been an orderly matter in Gaza in this conflict. But on a normal day, when we have aid and we have enough aid, you will see our teams moving around assigned distribution points, whether that is in refugee camps, whether that is our at our assigned centres. We do go to people to provide aid. We do bring water to people. We don't ask people to walk miles and miles.

NK: GHF, as our listeners have heard, uses private, armed contractors to distribute these supplies. A former U.S. Marine, Jake Wood, resigned just this weekend as head of the GHF saying in part, quote, that it had become, quote, clear that it is not possible to implement this plan while also strictly adhering to the humanitarian principles of humanity, neutrality, impartiality, and independence, which I will not abandon, end quote. That's again, former Marine Jake Wood, who was the head of this group till the weekend. Your organization, the Norwegian Refugee Council, as well as other aid agencies, the United Nations, are also boycotting all of this. Are you getting a sense that aid from your organizations, we know the UN has said that some, they're still allowed, you know, with many obstacles to bring in some aid. Are you getting sense that in addition to GHF, you'll be able to continue, go back to doing aid deliveries as you have in the past?

AB: We want to as soon as possible. And we think that everything that is happening is distracting us. This is, you know, this not the time to experiment. This is time that Gazans don't have. There are children starving, children reduced to skin and bones as we speak, and as we experiment with controversial, privatized, militarized plans to distribute aid, all while we have tonnes of aid. The Norwegian Refugee Council has what is enough to fill up to 200 trucks of tents, of shelter support, baby items, children's stationery, everything. I think we should be enabled. I think the gates have to open. It can't be a switch that Israel flicks on and off whenever it wants. We have seen over 100 trucks make it into Gaza in the past few days and then nothing. It cannot be a waiting game anymore. We should be able to bring aid in. And we should do it as soon as possible to save these starving children in Gaza.

NK: GHF said it was able to to give out 8,000 of these food boxes. Does that math add up? I mean will that help in any way?

AB: You're talking about 2 million people starving at the moment, 8,000 probably that's too little, of course. I mean, needless to say. And also, all the effort, all the, you know, the long walks and the danger that people are putting themselves in. And also, we don't even know how people are going to make it back to where they came from, you know, carrying that box of food items. So no, the answer is that's not enough. Our main call here is for this plan to be reversed. We are very clear that it's spreading even more chaos and desperation. And it will be dangerous. And people can be better off with the right methods, with the right mechanisms, let the professionals do their job.

NK: Ahmed, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

AB: Thank you.

CH: Ahmed Bayram is media advisor for Norwegian Refugee Council. We reached him in Amman, Jordan.

[eerie synth]

NZ Bingo Bills

Guest: David Wilson

TS: Everyone knows cookie tins are useful to have around: and not necessarily just for keeping cookies. Buttons, family photographs, wool, pencils, hardware...you name it. And in New Zealand's parliament they're putting an old cookie tin to particularly good use. David Wilson is the clerk of the country's House of Representatives. We reached him in Wellington.

NK: David, exactly what is inside this tin in New Zealand's parliament?

DAVID WILSON: Well, a long time ago, there used to be some biscuits. [NK chuckles] But these days, there are tokens that are used for deciding which members' bills are going to be introduced into our Parliament.

NK: And what kinds of bills are we talking about here?

DW: So, the bills that are introduced by MPs who are not ministers. So every two weeks, non-ministerial MPs get the chance to put forward their bills and debate them in the House. And there are always more ideas for bills than there is time to debate them. And so, the way of randomly choosing them is to pick tokens out of this biscuit tin.

NK: And so, not major legislation, not that, this is not, not that they're not important what the other members are proposing, but some of the smaller issues perhaps?

DW: Some of them are quite important issues. The marriage equality legislation came from a member's bill out of the biscuit tin. And the legislation around euthanasia came out of this biscuits tin as well. So sometimes, they're small issues. The bills tend to be quite small because they're developed by individuals.

NK: But they can be elevated.

DW: But the issue can be big.

NK: How did this all get started?

DW: There've always been members' bills in New Zealand, but the way that up until the 1990s, the way they were selected was that the MP with the bill would line up outside the clerk's office. And the first ones to get their bill in the clerk's hands had the best chance of having them debated. That meant MPs would often just line up outside my predecessor's office, sometimes overnight to get their bill in.

NK: Overnight!

DW: Yeah, so that wasn't really a very good way of doing it, and this idea of having a ballot came up. When we needed to have a ballot, we needed something to draw the ballots from. So, someone went to a local department store near parliament and bought this tin which had biscuits in it. The biscuits were eaten, [NK chuckles] and then the tin was used from then on. And it still is.

NK: What kind of cookies were in it?

DW: I think they were chocolate chip. It was before my time.

NK: Okay. I thought that was an important question to ask in this conversation.

DW: [chuckling] It is.

NK: As someone who enjoys biscuits and cookies. Okay, so that's how it got started. The MPs, you know, who are getting a chance, is there excitement when the tin comes out?

DW: Yeah, there is. It actually lives in a display case most of the time. It's quite popular with tourists and other people around parliament. But when we use it, we usually get quite a good crowd of MPs and their staff, sometimes public tours if there's one there, or school groups as well. And yeah, they find it quite exciting. It is a little bit old-fashioned and quirky, [NK chuckles] quite low-tech, but people like it.

NK: There's merchandise. The parliament's gift shop sells merch.

DW: They do, yes. You can buy a coffee mug or a small tin yourself if you want to do your own ballots at home, I don't know. [laughing]

NK: Are there cookies in them initially or no -- just empty tins?

DW: Yes, yes, there are. They’re in there in a small copy to this.

NK: Okay. So, you can replicate the tradition as it actually unfolded.

DW: That's right. Yeah, absolutely.

NK: [chuckling] You took the tin out recently, can you tell us about that?

DW: Yeah, so whenever there is space on the order paper, which is parliament's agenda, for another member's bill or two, we get the tin out, get the tokens out, and we tell all the MPs who are eligible, you know, there's going to be a ballot the next day; if you want to get your bill in, please do. If they do, we usually get 70 to 75 bills in there. And, yeah, we drew some out the other day, and those bills got introduced into the House.

NK: Who gets to pull out the bills?

DW: So, one of my staff is in charge of the cookie tin and biscuit tin and puts the tokens in. And then, we just get a neutral, non-political staff member to do it, usually. Or if there's a school group visiting, we might get one of them to do it. It just needs to be someone who's not connected to a political party.

NK: Oh my goodness! The excitement of one of those school children to be able to do that.

DW: [laughing] Yes, that's right. Yeah, they seem to enjoy it. So, just anyone who's around, who's not affiliated with a political party can do it.

NK: And what's the atmosphere, the vibe, like when this is happening? Are people cheering? Is it very somber? What's happening?

DW: There's quite a buzz before it starts. And I usually have to raise my voice a bit and get everyone to settle down. We might get 50 to 100 people in the Parliamentary Library, which is the space we use for it. And then it does go quiet and everyone, I do a bit of a preamble, but everyone just wants to get on with the draw, really. And as they draw out there's usually a bit cheering and excitement if the MP or the staff happens to be there. And yeah, then sort of as quickly as it starts, it finishes. The whole thing only takes a couple of minutes. But yeah, it's quite exciting at the time. And then everyone goes off and goes about their day.

NK: And what were the bills that were discussed as a result of this draw this time?

DW: They've been introduced. They haven't yet been debated in the House, [chuckling] and I can't actually remember what they were.

NK: [laughing] Okay, well, we'll give you a pass since you had to wrangle everyone and keep them. And we've just, our parliament has just elected a new house speaker. And we know, we know that things can get rowdy.

DW: That's right.

NK: So, debate on those to come. What do you say to folks --

DW: To come, yes.

NK: To come. What do you say to folks who maybe are a little bit skeptical about how efficient, or secure, or useful this method might be?

DW: Yeah, people do raise that sometimes. I actually think it's a really secure way of doing it. There's no way of hacking it. It can't break. We actually have spare tokens and a spare biscuit tin if something did go wrong.

NK: Oh, contingencies.

DW: It doesn't cost anything anymore. The outlay for the cookies was many years ago now. [NK chuckles] And it just works really well, and it's a bit of fun. Yeah, we could, I'm sure we could have a computer system that randomly generated numbers or something. But we've got this and it works well and people like it.

NK: A pleasure, David. Thank you for this.

DW: It's a pleasure.

TS: David Wilson is the clerk of the New Zealand House of Representatives. We reached him in Wellington.

[electronic]

No Standing Flight

TS: Okay, I will remain seated until it is my turn to exit. I will keep my seatbelt fastened until the captain turns off the seatbelt light. Oh, sorry about that. Just little trip coming up and I'm practicing some proper deplaning etiquette, which demands one try to refrain from leaping up as soon as the plane hits the tarmac and rummaging through the overhead compartment where, lest you forget, items may have shifted... [said drawn out] during the course of the flight. Still, the risk can often seem preferable to spending just one more second in a cramped metal tube teeming with humanity. Sorry, I'm fine. What I meant to say is getting off of a plane in an orderly manner is a safety issue and a propriety issue. And if you're landing in Turkey, It is now also a pocketbook issue. The Turkish directorate general of civil aviation has announced a plan to fine passengers who get out of their seats or crowd the aisles before their row's appointed turn. Cabin crews have been instructed to issue a warning that those who do not, quote, respect the disembarkation priority of the passengers in front of or around you, unquote, will be fined accordingly. Infractions include undoing your seatbelt, or opening the overhead compartment, as well as simply standing up until your row is called upon. For those thinking of standing up for themselves, I would not. I get the sense they mean business, and you'll find you’re disembarking up the wrong tree.

[grunge]

Part 2: Sepsis Test, Old Spaghetti Factory Tour

Sepsis Test

Guest: Claudia dos Santos

TS: The World Health Organization calls sepsis one of the most frequent causes of death worldwide. Today, a group of Canadian researchers say they're one step closer to developing a portable blood-testing device that could predict sepsis risk...and, hopefully, cut deaths. The results of the team's research were just published in the journal Nature Communications. Claudia dos Santos is the senior author. She's a clinician scientist at Unity Health Toronto and a Tier 1 Canada Research Chair. We reached her in Toronto.

NK: Doctor, how often do you as a doctor come across sepsis?

CLAUDIA DOS SANTOS: Well, I'm a critical care doctor in the intensive care unit; sepsis is very common. Probably every week that I'm on service, I may see anywhere between three to six patients with sepses, depending on the week.

NK: And remind our listeners what exactly sepsis is. What are we talking about here, and what happens to patients?

CDS: Sepsis is actually an abnormal response of the host to an infection. I think one of the challenging things that we always have difficulty in explaining to people is that sometimes it doesn't matter if you actually stop the infection because it's a little bit like an avalanche. Once the sepsis process has begun, the person's own body perpetuates the abnormal response that ultimately leads to multiple organ failure. So, it leads to the need for mechanical ventilation, severe low blood pressure that requires resuscitation, that requires drugs to keep up the blood pressure, kidney failure that requires dialysis. So, sometimes even when you are able to kill the bacteria, the viruses, or the fungus, or the parasites that have initiated the sepsis, the person's own body continues to sort of perpetuate the organ failure.

NK: The description alone is difficult to hear. And in reality, it can be horrific for family members, the patient, of course, but the family members, who are watching this unfold. Given how often you said you encounter this in your work, what was the point you decided that something could, and should, change?

CDS: Sepsis is actually one of the reasons I went into critical care. I always was very interested in the pathophysiology of sepsis. But I think that the moment when I decided to sort of dedicate my entire research career to trying to figure out how to help patients with sepsis was when I saw, you know, young patients pass away tragically, very, very young, very quickly.

NK: The device your team is working on, what's at the heart of the problem you're trying to solve there?

CDS: So, what we're trying to solve is the problem that most patients who present with sepsis, they present with suspicion of sepsis. And up to 50 per cent, if not more, of cultures can actually be negative. So, physicians are usually sort of forced to treat patients just based on the suspicion of sepsis alone. Time is of the essence because every hour that you delay management of sepsis, you have an increase in mortality of about eight per cent, which makes an enormous amount of difference. And patients who come in, they can look exactly alike. So, based on our clinical examination, biochemical tests, radiological tests, sometimes it's impossible to tell who is going to do well and who is going to deteriorate and develop that overwhelming and catastrophic organ failure. And it has recently become quite apparent that the reason for that is because not all patients with sepsis are created equal. They are, in fact, very different at a molecular level. So, being able to use innovative tools that have become more prevalent now, these precision medicine tools, being able to use precision medicine tools to be able to identify and predict those patients that are going to go on to deteriorate makes all the difference. Because now, you can institute and tailor your management much earlier. And, hopefully, that helps reduce morbidity and mortality.

NK: Six genes in particular you and your colleagues have identified that stand out in some patients. At which point would you test for them? I mean, are you checking as soon as someone is admitted?

CDS: As soon as we see the patient in the emergency department. So, a lot of the study was conducted using blood samples from patients that presented in the emergency room. And a lot of the work was done by Peter Zhang, a brilliant young scientist that works with Dr. Bob Hancock at the University of British Columbia and with his startup company CEPCET. And their blood test can be done at the bedside, and the results are provided in less than three hours using only 50 microlitres of blood. And the result that the device developed by the National Research Council of Canada, brilliant chief engineer Lydia Malich, who developed the device together with Dr. Varis and the Canadian Space Agency, the device is actually portable.

NK: This is the Power Blade.

CDS: Adapt the Power Blade. And it can be operated, essentially, by non-expert personnel. Hopefully, in the future, this is something that can be available to anyone anywhere to be able to identify patients who are more likely to deteriorate as soon as they see them. In the first contact with the health care system.

NK: So, if the patient tests positive for that six gene or sepsis signature, then they could, the doctor could, prescribe antibiotics or things like that. If they don't actually go on to develop sepsis, could that medication be harmful to them?

CDS: Yeah, that's entirely possible. That's entirely possible. And that's what we're going to test in the prospective clinical trial. So, we were funded by the Canadian Institutes of Health Research project grant competition that was awarded this year. And we're hopefully starting the clinical trial in the second half of the year. And the clinical trail is exactly for that reason. It will test in 200 patients, in the real world environment, how the prototype of the device and the biomarkers, the subset biomarkers, how it performs in the real world.

NK: Doctor, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

CDS: Thank you so much.

TS: That was Dr. Claudia dos Santos in Toronto.

[smooth jazz]

LR: Pigeon Fest

TS: We've talked about the fraught dynamic between humans and pigeons several times on this program. But for one As It Happens guest last night, there's nothing complicated about it. Taylor Zakarin is an associate curator with Friends of the High Line, a non-profit organizing a New York "Pigeon Fest" in the bird's honour. Ms. Zakarin explained that the festival on the city's popular High Line walkway will feature carnival games, workshops and panels...and, of course, a pigeon impersonation contest.

SOUNDCLIP

TAYLOR ZAKARIN: We really want people to strut their stuff. They'll be judged on their plumage, or costume and sound. But we also, of course, because we can't forget the public, the Audience Participation Award. So, we expect humans dressed as pigeons, I'm certain of it. [NK laughs]

TS: Well, that's just wonderful. And given our recent experience with your seagull impressions...it just felt wildly inappropriate not to open up our TalkBack line. And your calls flew in.

SOUNDCLIP

[I hate pigeons, but I love the TalkBack beep]

BARBARA KIDNEY: [this sounds like a pigeon in pain] Oh, oh, oh. Alright, so that's my pigeon imitation, and this is a, I guess, bird call imitator, Barbara Kidney from town of Shawangunk, New York, and I do think that pigeon and seagull are about all the bird calls I have. Okay, thank you, bye-bye.

[sing to me, TalkBack beep]

DIANA RASING: Hi, my name is Diana Rasing, from Winnipeg, Manitoba, and this is my best impression of a pigeon call, if I can not laugh. Here, I'll try it. [oh, this one is good!].

[TalkBack beep!]

ZACHARY DAVIS: My name is Zachary Davis. I'm calling from Bloordale in Toronto, Ontario. And I wanted to say that my family and some other families in our neighborhood in Bloordale love pigeons so much that we brought together a ski team called the Bloordale Snow Pigeons, commissioned the local artists to make a logo, and ski the Canadian Ski Marathon several years in a row wearing all of our pigeon gear. And whenever we see another Snow Pigeon out on the course, we give our pigeon call. [Snow Pigeons assemble!!!]

TS: That is what it sounds like when doves cry. Barbara, I think you did great. Diana, you did great. I have to admit that since I yodelled on the show a few weeks ago, I'm feeling bold, perhaps too bold, so here goes. [TS tries a very muted pigeon call] I don’t know. Zachary, is that enough to let me on your ski team? Please, I hope so. And thank you so much for your calls...and for your coos. Remember, you can always get in touch with us by carrier pigeon, or if you can’t find one of those, you can call Talkback at 416-205-5687, or you can email us at aih@cbc.ca. [coos]

[Brittpop]

Old Spaghetti Factory Tour

Guest: Andrew Mancini

TS: Here on As It Happens, you often meet people who set seemingly unattainable goals for themselves. A teenager sailing around the world solo. A scientist living deep underwater, for longer than anyone before. A man walking from LA to New York, barefoot. The list goes on. Well, today, we meet a man with a very achievable goal, but it's one he's been chasing for over half his life. Since the age of 10, Andrew Mancini has been on a mission to visit every Old Spaghetti Factory in the world. This is a chain of birthday-party-friendly pasta joints - known for their charmingly kitschy Victorian decor, which usually includes a full-sized indoor trolley cart. Now 22, Andrew has visited almost every one of the 60 locations across the United States and Canada, plus two in Japan. This weekend, he visited Saskatoon - home of the last remaining Canadian location on his list. We reached Andrew Mancini in San Francisco.

NK: Andrew, I mean, maybe you've done this already, but if you were to add up all of the pounds of pasta you've eaten at the Old Spaghetti Factory, [chuckle] how many pounds do you think we'd be talking about?

ANDREW MANCINI: That's a great question. Officially, I've been to 59 unique locations, ordering the same dish every time. But when you count the kind of repeat visits, and I've taken family or friends to some other ones, I can't even know how much pasta. How much pasta, scoops of ice cream, salad, it's been a lot.

NK: Let's go back in time, 10 years old, what makes you think this is what I need to do?

AM: Yeah, that's a great question. When I was 10, I was with my parents. We happened to be taking a vacation to Southern California. And my parents said, hey, let's go to the Old Spaghetti Factory, right? I was 10, so I didn't have much influence over the trip, but enjoyed the meal. And then, a month later, we found ourselves also on vacation in Whistler, British Columbia, also happened to eat at an Old Spaghetti Factory. And if you've been to the restaurant, the kind of menu that you're sitting at, you know, gets a read, has a list of all the locations kind of on the border, the outline of the menu. So, 10-year-old me was able to say, hey, in a one-month time span, I've been to two kind of geographically far apart locations. And I could physically check off the two I'd been to, saw that there were maybe 40 or 45 others, and thought, you know, compared to thousands of Tim Horton's around the world, 45 seemed a bit more reasonable. So, 10-year-old said, hey, I'm gonna try to visit them all.

NK: And what did your parents say then?

AM: They kind of, you know, said go for it. Some people, right, make an effort to visit every national park, or every state in the U.S., [NK chuckles] every major league baseball stadium, something like that. And they said, hey, if you want to make this your own version, you know, go for it. And they were very supportive along the way. And that I don't think they ever really thought I'd make it to the end. [NK chuckles] And now, there's 62 worldwide, but here we are.

NK: And what is it that you like, I mean, really love about these restaurants at this point?

AM: Yeah. To be honest, I still want the food so much. If I could, every week, I would go back, even if it was to the same restaurant, you know, independent of this goal of trying to travel to all these places. I really do enjoy the food. It's consistent between all the restaurants, even thousands of miles away in Japan. And I think beyond that, certainly that aspect of travel, you know, it's a good excuse to check off cities that I probably wouldn't get you otherwise, certainly not nearly as fast as I would have if there wasn't this Old Spaghetti Factory kind of driving me to that restaurant.

NK: What do you order when you sit down at an Old Spaghetti Factory table?

AM: Yeah. So, it's thinking of, you know, 10-year-old me. Of course, any 10-year-old orders kind of the plain pasta with marinara sauce, right, just sticking to the kid's menu. And by the time I was old enough that if you went to other Italian restaurants, right, I'd order more kind of normal, more advanced dishes. I thought I'd been to enough Old Spaghetti Factories that I had to double down and continue to order what I had as a 10-year-old. So, still to this day, and it kills all the managers, you now, I'll fly out to Toronto, you know, 2,000 miles away from San Francisco, thousands of miles to Japan, and still, basically order off the kids menu, still sticking to the pasta with marinara sauce.

NK: [chuckling] Is the marinara sauce on the spaghetti the same in Saskatoon as it is in Kobe, Japan?

AM: Surprisingly, it is. Down to the pasta sauce, the garlic butter that comes with the bread, the spumoni that they give you for dessert. It's crazy when you think about it. They're two continents apart, they're still providing the same dishes. In Canada, I'll give it that they serve basil leaves on top of the pasta with marinara sauce, which they don't in Japan or the U.S. So, slightly different than Saskatoon. But otherwise, surprisingly the same.

NK: You know, when you just started listing off everything, it took me, but I haven't been in a long time. And then I just remembered going when I was a kid, uh, in Vancouver, I think it's in Gastown. I could be wrong, but.

AM: Absolutely, no no no, yeah.

NK: We've talked to somebody who photographed McDonald's all around the world, and they were, you know, very culturally specific locations and decor. What about Old Spaghetti Factory?

AM: Sure, sure. They really do maintain most, look, even Japan, which, of course, is probably most surprising, almost all the locations have a trolley car inside. Those are the, of course, the kind of most fun tables to sit at. They have the same kind of Victorian decor. It is kind of custom-designed at each location. They try to keep the trolley car unique to whatever city, right? If it's an old, you know, railway, you know, they'll try to maintain that in the restaurant. So, it is surprisingly similar. Even in Japan they had American kind of rock music playing in the background, which is pretty similar to the U.S. ones. Some locations, obviously, they have different views. The one in Banff is on the kind of second storey of the building. So, that's just a beautiful view, as you can imagine, looking out to the Rockies. Some are more suburban. One in Edmonton is in the mall there. So, of course, they have different locations. But once you step inside the restaurant, if you forgot the kind of view out the window, it looks surprisingly similar between all 62 of them.

NK: So, they stay on brand in terms of decor and menu. I'm just thinking back, am I remembering correctly? There's a scale, a big, old-fashioned scale that you can stand on?

AM: Absolutely, absolutely. Most of the Canadian ones have the same. I think that just adds to the kind of, you know, maybe Old Spaghetti Factory could be a, you know, Italian-American chain. And I think what differentiates it, in addition, of course, the good food and service, is the kind theme and decor. And definitely, the scale adds to that.

NK: Are people still stepping on it at this stage? [laughing]

AM: Yes, yes. I will go in there and use that. So, we will take the photo. And obviously, kids step on it and it's very fun.

NK: You have Italian-American roots. How do your relatives feel about your commitment to the food at the Old Spaghetti Factory?

AM: My actual Italian relatives who still live in Sicily will roll their eyes and not comment on whether or not this restaurant is truly authentic Italian. But when I'm selling it to friends of mine who kind of roll their eyes at me, I say, hey, remember, I'm a quarter Italian, so I have a little bit more ability to say this is good Italian food. So, I still love it, for one.

NK: Have you been to Sicily? Have you had pasta there, too?

AM: I have, I have. And, you know, certainly slight differences between, you know --

NK: [chuckling] Just slight.

AM: The pasta in Italy and the ones from the American or Canadian chain, but still good across the board.

NK: So, three more left, if our math is correct, you were mentioning.

AM: Yes.

NK: Is this the year that you complete your mission?

AM: I'm thinking I will. I'm a graduating college senior. I'll actually be moving up to the Pacific Northwest in a few months after graduation, and that's where I'm missing all three -- one in Portland, Oregon and then two in the state of Washington, which, you know, are even closer than making it to Saskatoon. Part of me thinks, everyone's been making a joke, what happened after I reach the 62nd one?

NK: Sure.

AM: Is life even worth living? [NK chuckles] But they do continue to expand every year, so even if i make it to 62 by year's end, Hopefully next year, or the year after, there will be, you know, a new Canadian or American city to go explore.

NK: Andrew, I'm really glad we could speak. Thank you.

AM: Thanks so much for having me. It's been my pleasure.

TS: Andrew Mancini is a Stanford University student and Old Spaghetti Factory enthusiast. We reached him in San Francisco.

[psychedelic rock]

Chicken Fire

TS: Riva Karklin isn't just thinking about what she lost in a wildfire. She's also grateful for what she still has. Earlier this month, flames tore through an area near Lac Du Bonnet in Manitoba, destroying a historic barn on her property. The barn was built by her great-grandfather in the early 1900s, and it's listed as an example of the construction style used by Latvian settlers. But firefighters saved her home. And something more. Here's Riva Karklin speaking with CBC Manitoba's Marcy Markusa.

SOUNDCLIP

RIVA KARKLIN: When I heard that the barn probably had burned down, I thought, well, if the chickens survived a wildfire, now just to dehydrate or starve to death, is there any way I can get a firefighter, or a hydro worker, or somebody to check if they're still alive or give them food and water just in the interim? And we did. We had a message, a phone call, from a firefight who told me they went in and they watered and fed the chickens. But then I had to, what was I going to do with them now? Because we were evacuated for eight days. And they can't have no food and no water for eight days. And I went to the roadblock at 313, at the highway there, and I waited until somebody was available to give me a police escort to come to the property to evacuate 120 chickens. So, there was --

MARCY MARKUSA: It came to a flatbed of a truck, I saw video.

RK: Into the back of my truck. And we closed the lid and we drove them off to my friend's farm on Riverland Road for a little holiday for them for eight days. It was just wild.

MM: And now, they're back in, that's actually an original coupe that your ancestors used. That still stands.

RK: I don't know how. The firefighters must have protected that building because the fire was literally inches from the edge of that dry old 100-year-old log building. So, there had to have been some firefighting action to protect that building.

MM: I was looking across the field here at all the greenery, and you can see sort of just the faded red barn back in there where the chickens are. Can't hear them, they're not up yet maybe. [chuckling] Who do you want to thank today?

RK: The firefighters, the hydro fire department, the every single first responder that was on the front lines in this entire neighbourhood. I mean, if it weren't for them, there would have been so much more loss in so many places. And there already, there was so much loss a little further north. And it's just incredible to see what their efforts have been able to protect. Thanks is never enough. I mean, As morbid as it sounds, I'm probably going to give some of the chickens that were saved when they turn into meat chickens. They will get gifted to the --

MM: It's farming, it's alright. We get that.

RK: [chuckling] It's farming. They will get gifted to some first responders. So, spoiler alert, there's some fresh chicken coming people's way in July or so.

TS: Farmer Riva Karklin speaking with CBC Manitoba host Marcy Markusa from her property near Lac Du Bonnet.

[calypso]

Part 3: Calgary Daycare Fine, Bangladesh Kiln Study

FOA: Charles Rangel Obit

TS: Congressman Charles Rangel was born on New York's 132nd street, between Lenox and Fifth in Harlem. And he often joked that once he became successful, he moved up -- three blocks, to 135th Street. For 23 terms, Congressman Rangel represented the people in his beloved neighborhood. He was a founding member of the Congressional Black Caucus, and the first African American to chair the powerful Ways and Means Committee. And despite having to step down from that position over tax violations, he continued to win his district handily until he retired in 2017. Congressman Rangel died yesterday at the Harlem Hospital -- just around the corner from where he was born. He was 94 years old. In 2000, he was on this program. At the time, the U.S. was embroiled in a dispute with Cuba over a six-year-old boy who had survived a shipwreck that took his mother's life -- as she attempted to get them to the United States. Relatives of Elian Gonzalez in Miami wanted to keep him in the U.S. -- as did many Republican politicians. But his father and grandmothers back in Cuba wanted him to return. What followed was a custody battle that played out in both American and Cuban politics. And at the time, Congressman Rangel told As It Happens what he thought was really behind it all.

SOUNDCLIP

CHARLES RANGEL: There is very little consideration for the child. The whole thing is an attempt to embarrass Fidel Castro. And you know, Fidel is orchestrating the same type of demonstrations in Havana.

MARY LOU FINLAY: Yeah.

CR: As these people are organizing demonstrations in Miami. Both sides are really playing a very high-strung political game as to who is the victor. I mean the whole idea to ask him does he want to return to Cuba, and after what he's been through and coming here from Cuba, he would just want to breathe and just be left alone. But to trappist him to Disney World, to have a member of Congress abuse our system and subpoena him. The kid can't speak English, and they're going to subpoena him to testify in front of a congressional committee, to have him on TV waving the subpoenas with signs of victory, it's clear that there's very little sensitivity for this boy. And I had really thought that whether you're a communist or a capitalist, that when you're parent or grandparent, that there was some inner emotional quality that superseded who wins and who loses in this political game between Castro and anti-Castro people in Miami. But when they said that the grandparents were only here because they've been brainwashed by Fidel Castro. When they printed a letter in the Washington Times, allegedly coming from the grave of Elian's mother who died in the sea, indicating to let her boy stay here, then I've lost a little faith in humankind in terms of their compassion for children, because --

MLF: Not to say sanity.

CR: That is the meanest thing. You know, what this boy needs is not a whole lot of democracy, a whole of communism, a whole a lot of socialism. What he needs is a strong dose of love.

TS: From Our Archives, that was Congressman Charles Rangel speaking with former As It Happens host Mary Lou Finlay in 2000. Congressman Rangel died yesterday. He was 94.

[chillhop house tour music]

Calgary Daycare Fine

Guest: Sarah MacDonald

TS: It's a $10,000 fine -- that some Calgary parents say should be a lot more. That fine has been levied against catering company Fueling Minds Inc. for a bylaw offense. An Ecoli outbreak that made hundreds of kids sick at daycare in 2023, and put some in hospital, was traced to the company's kitchen. But the justice of the peace said he couldn't make a connection between the bylaw offense and the Ecoli outbreak itself. Sarah MacDonald's kid was one of the kids who got sick. She's involved in an ongoing lawsuit against Fueling Minds Inc. We reached her in Calgary.

NK: Sarah, the last time you were on our show, we talked a lot, obviously, about your son. How is he doing today?

SARAH MACDONALD: He's doing well enough. We were just at the nephrology clinic a couple of weeks ago. He has an annual check on his kidney functions now, just so that we can monitor how they are functioning, how it's progressing, and that's something that we expect to do, really, until he turns 18. And then, he'll have to take on his own care.

NK: So, this is now a regular part of your life?

SM: Yeah, that's right.

NK: Given that, Sarah -- this decision, this fine of $10,000 -- is that enough?

SM: I mean, in the context of what the fine is for, so, I mean, I'm understanding that this is not directly related to the E. Coli, but this is related to the choice of the business to operate without a licence and operate in a way that's pretty negligent in terms of what's required to just legally run a business. So, I think $10,000 is, I don't think it's a motivating amount of money. I think that for a corporate fine that's very, very low. Because it's very unlikely that that's going to have much financial impact, if any, on that business going forward.

NK: And just to underline for our listeners, the justice of the peace said he could not connect the outbreak to the fact that Fueling Minds Inc. did not have a proper licence. The lawyer for Fueling Minds has said this violation was, quote, an administrative box that was not checked, unquote. That the company had a kitchen licence, but not a catering licence. So, that characterization by the lawyer as an administrative box that wasn't checked. How does that sit with you?

SM: It doesn't sit well. It's a really unfortunate example of how people that have access to a lot of financial resources and can afford great lawyers can really get around the system.

NK: Inspections of the kitchen after the outbreak found evidence of cockroach infestations, unsafe food handling, and a lack of equipment to keep food cold. What was it like for you to hear about those violations?

SM: The whole thing was so shocking and so surreal that I almost couldn't comprehend what I was reading in terms of the state of the kitchen. I think you always assume that everybody's doing their best and has the best intentions. And to hear that about the state the kitchen was just unreal.

NK: When we spoke in early September 2023, you also said to us that this, for you, goes beyond the daycare and that you wanted to see an overall, a change in overall policies, particularly in daycares. And you said you didn't feel that there were strict enough rules or laws about food preparation for children. Where do you feel you and your province and your city are at in terms of those kinds of issues, just generally speaking? Has this brought on any change?

SM: Not that I know of. You know, what was communicated to us as parents by the province really last summer was an intention to create a culture of food safety. And I'm not really sure what that means practically. But, as far as I know, there have not been changes to the laws. And there has not been any real head-on engagement with the checks and balances that were missing that allowed this outbreak to occur in the first place.

NK: You have a younger child who is still in daycare -- a different daycare we, should underline -- but I wonder how this has all changed your relationship with the kind of childcare that you choose to use,? The faith and trust, you have to, all parents have to at a certain stage, trust that where they're leaving their children is going to take good care of them. How did you navigate that?

SM: With great difficulty, I'll be honest. You know, it's something like what I went through with my son was so traumatizing that it's very, very difficult to trust again. And I spent quite a lot of time in the new daycare, quite a lot of time researching them. And I still struggle. You know, I believe that it's a great daycare, but I'm also not even able to think clearly sometimes. We know that there are not the appropriate checks and balances within the system to hold daycares accountable for keeping our children safe. So, the struggle is that then I need to rely on whoever's running the daycare to just make good decisions and trust that they are the type of people that are going to prioritize the health and safety of my child.

NK: What is your advice to other parents, wherever they're listening from? I mean, would you say to them, do what you have done after living what you and others have lived through? Go into the daycare and watch what's happening?

SM: Ultimately, that's a really short game. I mean, until I went through it, nobody really understands how few checks and balances there are. And there's a limitation for how much parents can take that on, right? Like, how much can I learn about the kitchen history of a daycare? And how much can I start to understand about whether a daycare is liable to keep my child safe or not?

NK: What do you tell your children now? I mean, you know, as he gets older, he's asking more questions, I'm sure.

SM: Well, my son, he'll have lots of questions. He'll say things like, who else ate the cow poop? That's what we told him was that there was cow poop in his meatloaf that made him so sick. And he'll ask, yeah, who else? How did it happen? Did they catch the people that put it in there? Really innocent questions from a five-year-old that we don't always have great answers for him.

NK: Well, Sarah, I appreciate this. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Please take care.

TS: We reached Sarah MacDonald in Calgary. Steve Major is the lawyer for Fueling Minds Inc. He told us, in part, quote, "While we empathize with the parents and children who contracted e.Coli, it is important to distinguish between today's proceeding [and] the other ongoing civil litigation proceeding...Causation, liability, blame, fault and appropriate damages...will be thoroughly determined in that other civil litigation...our clients did make a public apology for not having the proper license and further, Fueling Minds no longer operates a catering business. Unquote.

[ambient]

Hug-It-Out

TS: The ad is set in what looks like a hotel. A visitor steps up to the check-in desk. And the staff member on the other side asks.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: [speaking: French]

MAN: Sorry, I don't speak French. I'm just visiting.

WOMAN: Wow! Then welcome to Canada's Eastern Townships. Where are you visiting from?

MAN: I'm American.

WOMAN: Ah, okay.

TS: For a moment there, you think the clerk is hitting a panic button underneath the desk. But what that button actually does is flip up the counter, so that she can walk over to that American and give him hug. It says on the screen: "Come hug it out in the Eastern Townships." It's part of a campaign that Tourism Eastern Townships is running to encourage Americans to visit Quebec. Shanny Hallé is the official spokesperson for Tourism Eastern Townships and she spoke with CBC about this "hug it out" campaign.

SOUNDCLIP

SHANNY HALLÉ: This campaign is like a heartfelt invitation to visitors from New England and the New York state to visit us during the summer. So, we are embracing warmth, familiarity, and regional charm. It's a sincere invitation to connect without politics.

GORDON LAMBIE: So, why do you feel like it's important to do this now?

SH: Americans are very important for the Eastern Townships. It is a strategic clientele, if I can say. So, they are approximately six per cent of our annual tourist traffic, generating nearly $73 million in economic benefits for the region. So, it's huge. For us, it was important, like, to reaffirm our values of hospitality. Because since the beginning of 2025, we observed a decline in entries at the Quebec-American border compared to the same period last year. So, for the American visitors it's a moderate drop in entries of U.S. residents to Quebec. So, it's - 4.3 per cent. So, it's moderate. So, according to this, we were wondering what is going on? So, we talked with the industry to see what was going on. And finally, they told us that Americans are calling in to different attractions and accommodation to ask if they should cancel or postpone their trip. So, they fear of not being served in English, they fear of being poorly received by Quebeckers. So, many Americans are visiting the Townships at the moment, and many of them are apologizing for the current situation. So, in the context, it was essential for us to tell them that they are welcome to reaffirm our values of closeness and authenticity to this clientele. So, our message aims to remind American travelers that they are not only expected, but sincerely welcomed.

TS: Shanny Hallé is the trade, PR & communications director and official spokesperson for Tourism Eastern Townships in Quebec. She spoke to the CBC's Gordon Lambie.

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Bangladesh Kiln Study

Guest: Nina Brooks

CH: Bangladesh produces billions of bricks every year. And the coal-fired kilns where those bricks are made are a big environmental concern. But a team of international researchers believe they've found a practical, low-cost way to reduce that impact. The team did a randomized controlled trial involving hundreds of brick kilns in Bangladesh; the results were recently published in the journal Science. Nina Brooks is the lead author of the paper. She's an assistant professor in the department of global health at the Boston University School of Public Health. We reached her in Providence, Rhode Island.

NK: Nina, you went to Bangladesh for your research; you've seen these kilns, can you describe what they look like for us?

NINA BROOKS: We're working with zigzag kilns in this study, which are a type of traditional brick kiln that is supposedly more efficient. And these kilns are large, you know, they're around 250 feet by length, 50 feet wide, and they have chimneys that are around 90 to 120 feet tall. Sol, they're really quite big and they're producing 6 million bricks, you know, per year in each firing season. And they employ around 150 to 300 seasonally contracted workers.

NK: And they're ubiquitous across the country?

NB: Yeah, so there are around 8,000 traditional-style brick kilns in Bangladesh, most of them are zigzag kilns, and then a small portion are other, older types of traditional kilns. And then, there's a very small number of more modern technologically advanced kilns.

NK: The coal-fired kilns in particular, is that the part of it that is the biggest environmental concern based on what you've seen and researched?

NB: Yeah, so actually, all of the kilns, even the modern ones, are burning coal in Bangladesh. So, no matter what, we're still working with fossil fuels and coal. But the zigzag kilns in Bangladesh and the other types of traditional kilns are really inefficient. So when they're burning coal, a lot of that is converted into particulate matter that's really small. And when you inhale it, it can not only enter your lungs and cause respiratory health effects, but it can also pass into the bloodstream and cause heart disease and all other types of adverse health consequences.

NK: So, through your research, you were able to show that small changes can actually make a big difference in terms of the environmental impact these kilns are having. What kinds of changes are we talking about?

NB: Our team developed a technical intervention that introduced really modest changes to existing practices. There was no investment required from kiln owners themselves. And these practices, the focus was really changing how bricks are stacked inside the kiln to introduce more airflow. And then also, feeding coal more continuously and in smaller amounts. So, really quite modest changes. And as you can hear, not something that costs any amount of money.

NK: What was the response rate like from those owners? I mean, the fact that it didn't cost anything, obviously, I would imagine made things easier to adapt for people. But even with those modest changes, or the modesty of those changes, did you sense pushback, a reluctance to change?

NB: So, not only did they not cost anything. But actually, these changes also can save and even make kiln owners money, so it's sort of a double win from that perspective. They should be able to produce more of the highest quality bricks, which can be sold for a higher price. And we actually found in our study that among kiln owners that adopted these practices, they were saving close to $40,000 U.S. on coal. So, there was a really strong economic incentive for kiln owners to adopt these practices. Which was really the motivation from their perspective. But we did see some initial sort of hesitation, resistance, concern. And so, there was a bit of a wait and see approach where some kiln owners wanted to see what happened with the bricks that were coming out of early adopters before they chose to adopt themselves.

NK: Yeah, let them try it and then I'll see. What benefits did the ones that made those changes end up seeing?

NB: Yeah, so in our study, which was implemented as a randomized controlled study, we had 65 per cent of the intervention kilns adopt these practices. Among those that adopted these modest changes, reduced their coal use by about 23 per cent, cut carbon dioxide emissions and particulate matter emissions by 20 per cent. They produced higher quality bricks and saved, like I said, close to $40,000 on coal.

NK: There are also concerns about the health of workers who work at these kilns, the kind of conditions, the high risk of respiratory disease, lack of worker protections, just to name a few. Your research addresses those issues as well. How so?

NB: Yeah, so kiln workers are an extremely vulnerable and exploited population. Most of them are migrant workers that come seasonally to work on brick kilns, and often under pretty horrible arrangements; there's debt bondage, child labour is quite prevalent. And then once they're at brick kiln, the work itself is quite grueling. There is very little protective equipment of any kind; labour regulations are not well-enforced or complied with. So, it's really quite awful work in many cases, but it is also work. And so, we're looking into how to develop strategies that might similarly be win-wins for owners and workers that don't necessarily require the outside regulatory oversight of other approaches that just haven't been really successful in this context. And so, we're looking for other approaches that might be, you know, something that could be implemented without, say, a strong government enforcement mechanism. We've done a lot of pilot work and had a lot of conversations with workers to identify things that they would actually want changes in terms of their work experience and work conditions. And seeing what is feasible and cost effective to actually implement.

NK: Given the benefits that the kiln owners who adopted the changes you were recommending, the benefits they were able to experience, what's your sense of broader implementation and expansion?

NB: Yeah, so that's also something that we're working on. And we completed the study that just was published recently. We completed that work about two years ago. And so, since then, we have been working to scale this up in Bangladesh. And we also have plans to try to adapt this as needed to actually work more regionally across other countries in South Asia where bricks are made similarly. And we presented the findings of the study to the Department of Environment in Bangladesh, and they were really quite interested and quite keen on us expanding the work in Bangladesh. And, you know, recognize that this may be an important bridge solution with the end goal ultimately being moving away from fossil fuel-fired bricks, but in the current time where there isn't an alternative, that this is a good medium-term solution. And so, we've been working in Dhaka Division, which is where the capital of Bangladesh is located and air pollution is extremely bad. Pretty much year-round, but especially in the winter when kilns are operating. So, we've been working already there to expand this approach, and also in the other parts of Bangladesh where we began the study, we have been expanding there, with plans to really scale this up to every part of the country over the next few years.

NK: I'm glad we could speak, Nina. Thank you for this.

NB: Thank you.

CH: Nina Brooks is an assistant professor at Boston University's School of Public Health. She's in Providence, Rhode Island.

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FOA: Santa Degree

CH: For decades, Bruce Templeton has been a close adviser to a very important man. One only a select few people can say they've worked with. Mr. Templeton has spent years as a key helper to Santa Claus. Yes, the Santa Claus. Over the years, Mr. Templeton has helped arrange parties, parades, and meetings with children in his home province of Newfoundland and Labrador. His work has even earned him an induction into the International Santa Hall of Fame. And today, Mr. Templeton was awarded an honorary degree from Memorial University of Newfoundland and Labrador. Here's MUN's acting president, Jennifer Lokash, speaking at a convocation ceremony this afternoon.

SOUNDCLIP

JENNIFER LOKASH: In 1978, Bruce Templeton discovered a true kindred spirit in Santa Claus, and he has inhabited that spirit by donning the red suit ever since. Like Santa himself, the scope and scale at which Bruce operates is vast, and his generosity expansive. Even when not wearing the suit, he seems able to access that seasonal magic to make the impossible possible. He made about 50 visits every year for more than four decades, gave away hundreds of teddy bears and gifts in parades, at hospitals, in schools, and in seniors' homes. He enchanted every lucky youngster to board the Hits FM flight to the North Pole. He sat with children in palliative care, and consoled their families in their devastation. Bruce's approach to life is a reminder of the world we can live in when we give without the expectation of return, help those in need through kindnesses big and small, and provide a source in dark times of peace and light.

TS: Memorial University acting president, Jennifer Lokash, presenting Bruce Templeton with an honourary degree today. Back in 2012, As It Happens called up Mr. Templeton after he released his book,

SOUNDCLIP

BRUCE TEMPLETON: I met Santa 34 years ago. And he and I have had more than 1,000 visits together over the years.

CAROL OFF: Up to the North Pole?

BT: Yes, we've been to the North Pole. We'll be there again in another couple of weeks, and I go there quite regularly.

CO: I noticed in your book, The Man in the Red Suit, that you describe, which I didn't realize, the logistics that are involved in Santa doing so many gigs, so many visits. I know there's a lot of magic involved. And I know that's probably, you know, feeds into it. But I mean, just trying to get him into so many different places, how do you do it?

BT: First of all, we have an extraordinary group of elves, and then there are some people that are absolutely dedicated to helping Santa keep the dream alive for children. There is no length that we will not go to to keep the dream alive for children.

CH: From Our Archives, that was Bruce Templeton speaking with former As It Happens host Carol Off. Mr. Templeton received an honorary degree from Memorial University today.

The AIH Transcript For May 27, 2025

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