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The AIH transcript for May 29, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening, I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

TS: Tonight:

NK: Where there's smoke. As fires burn across the prairies, our guest describes the moment she had to evacuate her home, leave her community, and the nightmare she and her neighbours have been living through since.

TS: Getting out of DOGE. Elon Musk announces he's turning his focus away from Washington and back to his companies -- and a Washington reporter takes stock of the Tesla tycoon's adventures in government.

NK: Taco-ing points. Some investors are using the acronym TACO -- as in "Trump Always Chickens Out " -- to describe the president's tariff flip-flops. The journalist who coined it is flabbergasted that TACO made it all the way to the Oval Office.

TS: And...flight delay. We hear from the passenger who captured the mayhem that ensued when a pair of pigeons made its way into the cabin of a commercial plane.

TS: As It Happens, the Thursday Edition. Radio that's always open to ruffling a few feathers.

[theme]

Part 1: Creighton Evacuee, Musk Leaving D.C., Delta Bird

Creighton Evacuee

Guest: Dawn H'Lady

TS: The prairies are on fire. In Manitoba, 17,000 people have been told to evacuate their homes as wildfires rage across the province. It's believed to be the largest evacuation Manitobans have seen in almost 30 years. And they're not alone.

SOUNDCLIP

SCOTT MOE: It's a very serious situation that we're faced with in Saskatchewan. We do need some rainfall. We need that sooner rather than later. In light of that not being in the forecast, we most certainly are putting in place every measure possible to prepare our province, prepare our communities, and prepare those that live in our northern communities that are threatened by these wildfires in the days ahead.

TS: Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe speaking at a briefing today. That province has now joined Manitoba in declaring a state of emergency. Entire communities have been uprooted, including the town of Creighton, just across the border from Flin Flon, Manitoba. Dawn H'Lady was among the first to leave the town.

NK: Dawn, where are we reaching you right now?

DAWN H'LADY: I'm in Swan River, Manitoba.

NK: When did you learn you had to leave Creighton?

DH: My husband is a town counselor for Creighton. And so, he messaged me when he was in an emergency meeting yesterday at about 3:15, and he just messaged and he said, Sweetheart, pack the truck, get out of here as soon as possible.

NK: What did you say?

DH: I literally had everything ready to go, I just had to wait for my son to get home which was 15 minutes later and then we were on the road heading out of town.

NK: And how old is your son?

DH: He's 17.

NK: How long is that journey, Dawn?

DH: Um, to Swan River is four hours. Um, I was fortunate that I was at the front of the line. Um, there was a big convoy that was behind me. And I'm hearing that usually what takes an hour and a half to get to The Pas, Manitoba was taking people five hours because people are literally doing like 10 kilometres out on the highway

NK: Can you describe for us what you saw on the road as you made that trip?

DH: We were on Highway 10, and then when we approached Wanlis, Manitoba, that's where we saw more fire happening. There's been a big fire burning around that area that has actually closed the road multiple times over the last week. And you saw firefighters on the side of the road, you saw the fire happening, you were driving through smoke, the planes were in the air with the buckets. So, as much as you're trying to escape the fire from your own community, you're still driving through what was still progressing as you were heading south.

NK: Have you even been able to process or digest that, or are you still running on just the energy of having to get out?

DH: Yeah it's um i'm a pretty optimistic person i've lived up north my whole entire life, so we've lived in the forest. And, um, I didn't think that it was going to come to this. And then, when I woke up this morning on my mother-in-law's basement floor because that's all I had to sleep, um, it was literally waking up to the nightmare of this is actually happening.

NK: I'm so sorry, Dawn.

DH: Thank you.

NK: Before your husband called you, was there a sense that this was coming?

DH: Um, the fire actually started literally out my front door, right behind our mine that is there. So, I've been watching this thing burn for the last two days. And I felt safe. I thought that it was far enough, but the wind, the weather, is what is so unpredictable. So, from going from optimistic and then hearing the updates of my husband's meetings. And, you know, when nobody is really understanding the weather pattern, and nobody can really give any concrete idea of what is actually going to transpire, it is pretty unsettling. And then knowing that we were having an unknown of getting out of the community because we have two ways to exit Creighton and Flin Flon. And one is through Saskatchewan. That road out has been closed for the last week, week-and-a-half. All of Saskatchewan is basically on fire. So, that wasn't an option to leave. The only way out was Highway 10, which has also been closed a couple of times throughout the last week. So, it was really unsettling not even knowing, like, how are you going to get out because the evacuation orders, it's now, and it's emergent, and it's mandatory.

NK: How is your son doing?

DH: Um, he's good. He's pretty quiet. He doesn't say a whole lot. He's, you know, just kind of making sure I'm okay. And obviously, we're worried about Dad because we had to leave him behind. We've got two businesses in Flin Flon as well. So, our whole livelihood is there. All our friends are there.

What kinds of businesses?

DH: Um, we have a restaurant, so we've actually been busy feeding fire crews for the last couple of weeks that have all been up in the area, um, fighting other fires other than ours.

NK: It's a lot. It's a lot that you're dealing with, Dawn. How often are you able to stay in touch with your husband?

DH: Um, we're talking about every hour, um, stuff's kind of crazy for him, too. He's helping move, um, people from another community that is 15 minutes away. Um, he's cooking for firemen. He's trying to wear his counselor hat. So, there's lots on the go for him right now, too. And I'm sure he's just as worried about us as we are about him. Being a town counselor, he is going to be one of the last men out. So, we're really hoping that it doesn't get to that. I've heard that there's been some more volunteer firemen throughout the community that have come up. We haven't heard much from the government on either side. So literally, these small towns in Manitoba are binding together and they're coming up and they are helping us because all we have right now is volunteer crew.

NK: Wow! So, you mentioned you're at your mother-in-law's home. Are there concerns that you may have to uproot again? Or you're --

DH: We're going to, yeah. I found a hotel room in Melville, Saskatchewan, so we're going to head there today. I've got another son who actually lives half-an-hour outside of Regina who is also worried about us and what's all going on. So, we're gonna try and make our way to him. I was looking in Regina last night and there wasn't a hotel room to be found for the weekend, so it looks like it's going to be Melville tonight and then Weyburn on the weekend.

NK: How far are those spots from where you are right now?

DH: Wayburn is a nine-hour drive from Flin Flon.

NK: What about other evacuees? Have you been able to speak with them Dawn?

DH: Um, yeah, I literally have got people that I know all over both provinces. Um, some went to Saskatoon, some are down in Winnipeg, some are here in Swan River, but literally when I pulled into Swan River yesterday, like, everyone we knew pulling into the gas station, like we knew everybody. It was all Flin Flon congregating at the gas station. And we're so fortunate for Swan River because they actually, um, kept their gas station open a couple hours later for us, knowing that there was going to be a bunch of traffic coming through that needed gas because apparently there were some vehicles that were stranded on the highway that did run out of fuel.

NK: Have you ever experienced something like this?

DH: Never. It kind of got scary last year at this time. A community 20 minutes away from us, maybe half-an hour away from, they were actually evacuated last year, at this exact same time. So, it's come really close, but it's never actually come to fruition that we've actually had to vacate.

NK: Dawn, I'm wishing you and your family and everyone well, obviously, given everything you're going through. I appreciate you taking time to tell us what's happening, and I'm glad you and your son are safe. Thank you.

DH: Thank you.

NK: Take care, Dawn.

DH: Thank you so much.

TS: Dawn H'Lady has evacuated from her home in Creighton, Saskatchewan. She was in Swan River, Manitoba.

[folk]

Musk Leaving D.C.

Guest: Ashley Parker

TS: It's been 130 days since U.S. President Donald Trump's inauguration. Which means it's also been 130 days since he appointed Elon Musk to lead the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE. And with that 130 day mark, his time as a special government employee -- someone hired for a short, fixed time -- comes to an end. He officially announced on "X" that he would be returning his focus to his companies, like "X" and Tesla. Here's what White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt said when asked about the departure today.

SOUNDCLIP

KAROLINE LEAVITT: Of course, as you know, Elon Musk announced last night his departure as an official special government employee from the Trump administration. We thank him for his service. We thank for getting DOGE off of the ground, and the efforts to cut waste, fraud, and abuse will continue.

TS: White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt speaking with reporters today. Ashley Parker is a staff writer at the Atlantic, and recently co-wrote an article called The Decline and Fall of Elon Musk. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

NK: Ashley, are White House staffers happy to see Musk gone?

ASHLEY PARKER: So it it depends who you ask, [NK chuckles] but if that top levels of government, especially among cabinet secretaries and people who had to deal with him regularly, they are, you know, happy, relieved, or at least unhappy. I will say Elon Musk, in addition to having a warm relationship with the president himself, even now, did earn, you know, sort of some credibility among more junior staffers at the white house because he, you know, would freely give out his cell phone, they would trade text messages and memes. And he wasn't particularly hierarchical. And so, some of the folks, you know, kind of enjoyed him as a character around the campus.

NK: And you reported specifically on a meeting that President Trump called with his cabinet to allow them to, I guess, air their grievances about Musk. What were some of the complaints?

AP: Yeah, I mean you know a lot of cabinet secretaries who, you know, as we learned in our reporting, sort of, Elon Musk had gone in and kind of set their agencies on fire. And, you know, one of the people we spoke with said, look, you know, these secretaries understand maybe that, you know, you're moving fast; you're going to break things. But Elon Musk sort of didn't take the time to understand their agencies or to, you know, establish an appropriate relationship with them before upending their agency. So, someone that like Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, was very frustrated that Elon Musk had, you know, gone into the State Department and essentially, as Musk himself boasted on X, Put USAID, which is an agency that falls under the State Department, into the wood chipper, right? Like, that was a unilateral Elon Musk decision that Marco Rubio was kind of frustrated with. If not the idea to sort of slim down USAID, at least the way in which Elon Musk approached it. And then in that meeting, you had someone like Sergio Gore, who was a top advisor to the president. They're also very close, who is in charge of basically presidential personnel. So, hiring and staffing for the entire federal government. And Elon Musk, in that meeting, he didn't name Sergio by name, but he kind of complained about the pace of hiring. He was frustrated that even some of his DOGE engineers had to go through this process where they were vetted for sort of MAGA loyalty. And his view was, like, they can write the code, let's just start them. You know, they needed to be here yesterday. [chuckling] So, he says hiring isn't going fast enough. So then, you know, Sergio Gore stands up and defends hiring. And, you know, we reported that after that meeting, and Sergio and Elon had kind of long clashed, in part for this reason because Elon didn't think hiring with going quickly enough. At the same time that Elon Musk was firing a tonne of people. Elon then goes to the president and says to Trump, you know, please tell me i never have to deal with Sergio ever again. So, there were a lot of tensions, some based on policy, but much more based on kind of approach and personality.

NK: And what's your sense of how Trump reacted?

AP: Our understanding was sort of Trump heard all sides. He's someone who likes to see people battle in front of him. That's not troubling for him. [chuckling] In fact, he kind of enjoys that, you know, gladiatorial process. You know, one thing we heard was that, you know, Rubio in that moment really stood up to Elon Musk. And that was less a moment between Trump and Musk, but a defining moment between Trump and Rubio, where the president realized, you know, oh, Rubio really has a spine. And sort of gained a little bit more respect from him. And after that meeting, you know, Trump came out and he didn't criticize overtly Elon at all, but implicitly he did. He sort of said, you know, the right approach for DOGE and overhauling government is, you know, a scalpel, not a hatchet, which is an implicit rebuke of everything Elon was doing up until that point.

NK: On the issue of criticism, though, as he's been leaving, as he left, Musk has been more critical. In an interview on CBS recently, he criticized the budget bill, Trump's budget bill. We'll play a little bit of that for our listeners and for you.

SOUNDCLIP

ELON MUSK: So, you know, I was, like, disappointed to see the massive spending bill, frankly. Which increases the budget deficit, not just decrease it, and undermines the work that the DOGE team is doing.

NK: You know, I'm sure you did as well, Ashley, but I've certainly heard a lot of people leading up to this moment, knowing the two personalities that we're talking about here, that, you know, they were sort of betting on when this relationship would end, or there would be some sort of implosion. How would you characterize the state of their relationship right now? Is even this criticism theatre?

AP: So, what's interesting is, you know, I had that same question as well, right? Elon comes in all Cybertrucks and chainsaws. And he kind of earns this nickname fanned by Democrats of, you know, being a co-president, right? And so, you know with Trump that if your nickname is the "Co-President" that at some point it feels like there's going to be a big fiery clash. Because there's only one actual president, and that actual president is Donald Trump. And so, what's interesting about this is, yes, Elon is leaving at the end of his 130-day period as special government employee. There's been no effort made to keep him. But, you know, what a lot of people, especially in the first term, but a lot of people exit Trump's orbit in scandal, or disgrace, or a huge blow-up, or a blaze of glory. And Elon in many ways is sort of exiting as expected on his own terms with still some distance now between him and Donald Trump, but still a very warm relationship between the two of them. And so, even as he returns to his private company and leaves his official role as head of DOGE, I do not think we have heard the last of Elon Musk. And Elon Musk also has, you know, Trump's personal cell phone number, and I don't think, I would not be surprised if the men continued to talk and see each other and there is another act or two in this bromance.

NK: Ashley, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you for this.

AP: Oh yeah, of course. Thank you for making the time.

TS: Ashley Parker is a staff writer at the Atlantic. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

[ambient]

Delta Bird

Guest: Tom Caw

TS: It's a bird. It's a plane. It's...a bird on a plane? That is what happened earlier this week on Delta Flight 2348 from Minneapolis, Minnesota, to Madison, Wisconsin -- when a pigeon got caught on board. Here's what that sounded like.

SOUNDCLIP

[people scream and laugh and cry]

WOMAN: Don’t touch it!

TS: People reacting to a trapped pigeon on board a Delta flight this week. Tom Caw is the passenger who recorded that video. We reached him in Madison, Wisconsin.

NK: Tom, before we talk about the bird, I just have to ask,Caw, that's your real last name?

TOM CAW: That is, indeed, [NK chuckles] my real family name.

NK: Not related to birds.

TC: No, I --

NK: This wasn't your destiny?

TC: Yeah, I feel like a kinship with birds, but I, [NK chuckles] different, different, different birds, you know, crows and pigeons, but all birds I feel a kenship with.

NK: Okay, I just wanted to make sure we got that out of the way for myself, but also for our listeners.

TC: Okay.

But given that, given that kinship, have you recovered from what our listeners just heard? What you heard on that flight, that screaming, because it was right next to you?

TC: Oh, I know. Yes, I have recovered. And, in fact, by the time we eventually took off, I was, I would say my blood pressure had returned to a normal level. [NK chuckles] So yes, so I have recovered, thanks.

NK: Good, I'm glad, I'm genuinely glad to hear that. When did this pigeon make itself known to all of you?

TC: [chuckling] Well, the first pigeon on this flight apparently made itself known while we were all still boarding the flight, boarding the plane, because that's when I overheard another passenger say to a flight attendant standing near me when I put my luggage in the overhead compartment that she thought she saw a pigeon. She said, I think there's a pigeon on this plane. And I just, yeah, that was the first, and I thought maybe she's imagining things. So, I just thought maybe I'll sit down and I didn't really hear that.

NK: And then, when did it become clear that she had, in fact, seen a pigeon?

TC: Oh, that was probably just about four or five minutes later.

NK: Right.

TC: When a group of passengers sitting a few rows ahead of me began standing up and saying, oh, there it goes. There's the bird. There's a bird. There's the pigeon. Get it. And I thought, okay, well, something is walking underneath the seats, but people travel with their animals all the time.

NK: Right.

TC: And so, I thought, well, maybe somebody had a small dog that [chuckling] looked like a pigeon that was loose. I don't know.

NK: Just the chaos.

TC: But that's when I realized, oh no, it was really a pigeon.

NK: The fact that there were not just one, but two, [chuckling] is another dimension to this story.

TC: Right. Right.

NK: But at what point did you decide, you know, you settle into your seat and then you say, okay, maybe I need to record what's happening around me?

TC: Oh right. Well, once they removed the first pigeon, and once the baggage handler was summoned and then it came on the plane and removed that pigeon, we all thought okay that was very strange, but now we're going to be on our way, right? So, that was when about 10 or f15 minutes later, as we taxied to the runway to take off, someone said, there's another pigeon. There's another bird. [NK chuckles] That was the moment then when we saw it walking down the aisle. And then, someone lunged for it and it took flight. So, I managed to capture it as it was flying back towards the rear of the plane. So yeah, that was just a moment and I managed to capture it, as you all have seen now. [chuckling]

NK: Thank you for doing that. How was it captured in the end?

TC: Well, it flew towards the rear of the cabin. And actually, my seatmate, the poor woman who has now become famous for her screams, she asked a flight attendant if she could go back to the restroom? And she saw another flight attendant down on all fours with the pigeon under a towel, [chuckling] holding the pigeon down. So, I don't know whether another passenger initially secured the pigeon, and then the flight attendants took over. But it was secured, and then we had to wait. We had to go back to the gate and have a baggage handler come on again and remove that pigeon. [chuckling]

NK: Did you and the others get a sense in the end of how both of these pigeons got on board, stowed away briefly?

TC: No, no idea. I, you know, I don't know. I actually, you being at the CBC, I wondered maybe did they have passports? Were they international travelers? [NK chuckles] Did they come through customs? Were they trying to get to duty free and then sneak some things on? I don’t know.

NK: We've been talking a lot about pigeons lately. There's a big pigeon festival coming up in New York City.

TC: Okay! [chuckling]

NK: And so, maybe they heard, maybe they're AIH listeners and wanted to go.

TC: Right, or maybe somebody on the plane from Wisconsin said, well, maybe they heard good things about Wisconsin, and they thought, well, let's give it a visit and just save the flying, you know?

NK: Sure.

TC: Save the strain. We'll just let someone else do the flying.

NK: When you did finally take off, Tom, the flight crew had some things to say, the captain and the flight attendant. What were those announcements?

TC: Oh yes, that was quite funny. The pilot came on, and he let us all know that when he radioed the control tower, the air traffic controller just couldn't believe it. When he said, well, I had to tell him why we were coming back to the gate. And when I did he said, well, that's a first for me. And the pilot said, well, I told him that was a second for me because the first was half-an-hour earlier when the first pigeon on this plane got removed. [both chuckling] And then, the last big joke moment was when the flight attendant got on and said, okay, before we pull away from the gate, we need everyone to check under their seats and in their baggage one more time to make sure there are no more birds on this plane. And everyone laughed, and she said, okay, it is funny, but seriously.

NK: [laughing] And you obeyed. You all obeyed their instructions.

TC: Yeah, yeah, we all did, and we all said, no birds, so then we got the all clear to take off. [chuckling]

NK: Well, Tom, this has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. Glad you're all doing well. Hope the pigeons are, you know, living their lives. Living their best lives.

TC: I hope they're getting to tell their story, too. That's what I keep thinking.

NK: We're trying to book them. Our producers are pretty excellent, [TC laughing] so stay tuned for that,

Tom.

TC: Okay, I will. I will.

NK: Take care, thank you.

TC: Okay, you're welcome. Thank you.

TS: We reached Tom Caw in Madison, Wisconsin.

[newsy theme]

Part 2: ON Hockey Consent Trainer, Trump TACO Columnist

ON Hockey Consent Trainer

Guest: Jessie Rodger

TS: The ongoing trial of five former world junior players has ignited a conversation about sexual violence and consent in hockey. The players are accused of sexually assaulting a 20-year-old woman in a London, Ontario hotel room in 2018. They've all pleaded not guilty. And today, the Crown wrapped up its case. The case has led to a national reckoning about hockey culture. But behind the scenes, the organization tasked with providing a mandatory sexual violence program to Ontario Hockey League players says it's having a hard time getting some teams to sign on. One of those teams is the London Knights. They haven't taken the Onside Program since 2022. Anova is one of the Ontario Coalition of Rape Crisis Centres that provides the training to the team. Jessie Rodger is the centre's executive director. We reached them in London.

NK: Jessie, what does it say to you that in 2025, nearly 10 years after this program was developed, that there isn't universal uptake?

JESSIE RODGER: I think it reconfirms, I think, something that a lot of sexual assault centres know to be true is that often times, education around sexual violence is a check box to be ticked off, and not really an issue that is given a lot of value to the people who need it the most.

NK: In terms of the London Knights in particular, and we understand that there are other teams that have not signed on to this course. But in terms of London Knights in particular, the Ontario Hockey League was involved in developing this program back in 2016, just to let our listeners know. The Knights have not participated in it over the past three years. The commissioner of the OHL, Brian Crawford, spoke to our colleagues in London on the morning show there. He said sexual violence training is absolutely mandatory, that every team completes it every year. But he was asked if he was okay with the fact that the Knights have not taken the Onside program in three years, as we've said. I'll play for you and our listeners what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

BRIAN CRAWFORD: I'm OK with the fact that they've taken training that we believe has been equivalent and met the needs of our teams and what it is that we're trying to achieve in educating our players.

NK: So, you heard what he had to say there. He says they have permission to do one-hour training with the London Abused Women's Centre. What do you say to that? Why is the Onside program necessary as opposed to another course?

JR: Well, the Onside program was developed specifically for the Ontario Hockey League, and I think that's a really important component when we're creating programming to talk about sexual violence. There was time and energy that was taken to make sure that the content would be as useful as possible for this particular audience of young people. And while I deeply respect the work of the London Abused Women's Centre, and I'm really glad that they're doing something, it's not the same. And even our colleagues over at the London Abused Women's Centre have acknowledged it's not the same thing. And they were not aware that they were being asked to do their programming in replacement of the Onside. So, what I think is actually happening is I don't believe that the OHL actually knows what Onside is. I don't think they know the curriculum. I don't think they know the content. I think they don't know the purpose. And so, I think that they're making decisions based on ticking a box, not on actually wanting to make sure that the information is given to their players to make sure that everybody is as safe as possible.

NK: I can hear, certainly, the frustration in your voice. What does the curriculum consist of?

JR: Yeah, the curriculum for Onside consists of a number of different things. First of all, it works to create an open and accountable space for OHL players to talk about sexual violence. It also helps promote an understanding of what toxic masculinity might look like for them, and the expectations that we put on young elite hockey players. And allows them the space to talk about what healthy masculinity looks like because we don't have a lot spaces where we can do that. It also gives them that counter-narrative to rape culture and rape myths, and it also builds those OHL players to step into the roles of being an ally and being a peer leader when it comes to this kind of work. So, that's the extra stuff that is so really important to the Onside program.

NK: I know you don't personally teach the course, the program. What are you hearing, though, from players, players in London in particular, who've taken this in the past?

JR: Yeah, you know, the feedback has been great when we've been able to deliver it. There's been really robust conversations. There's really honest and frank conversations about what they're experiencing, and how they want to move forward. And the team, when they're able to go in and talk to the players, they always leave feeling like the needle got moved a little bit, and there was an openness to hear what they had to say. And so, we would like to see that continue.

NK: It sounds like it's a place for them to be able to be open and honest, too.

JR: Absolutely. Because I think there's a lot of talk, and people often hear the term of toxic masculinity. And they hear about things that we talk about the patriarchy and wanting to sort of dismantle that a little bit. But I think what people often forget is that it's also men who experience the negative impact of toxic masculine and oppressive pieces of the patriarch. Like, they also deserve to be in a space where they can express their emotions in a healthy way, where they could have healthy relationships, where the expectations of them are realistic. And, like, they all deserve to have the space to talk about that. So, I think that's what Onside really does try to incorporate.

NK: You know even better than I do that there are people who will hear those phrases, and even if they completely agree with this kind of understanding and training, they'll roll their eyes. Like, it puts up a barrier for them. How do you and the people who teach the course, how do you break through that to get at the heart of what you're trying to do when the initial reaction is like that, probably?

JR: Yeah, yeah. And I think, for us, we really want to meet people where they're at. And part of us doing the program specifically in London is that we have one of our facilitators is always, it's a guy, usually a younger guy, who can hopefully better relate, and usually have some sort of connection to sport. We've done that with other programming with young men, and that's always really worked. There are men out there who get this, and who really believe in it. And it's so impactful for other young men to see, you know, a role model who kind of looks and sounds like them talk about this, and that's also one of the great parts of the Onside is that we're able to provide that.

NK: It must be rewarding for them, I would imagine, your colleagues who tell you about how these courses have gone in the past, to see that needle move?

JR: It is. And I think right now in our whole country, there's been a magnifying glass on hockey culture. And there's been a new dialogue that we haven't had in a long time of this is a sport that this country love, that's beloved, but there's a problem in what's kind of swirled around it. And if we love this game, and we love this part of our national identity of the game of hockey, I think we have a responsibility to address the culture pieces that have been simmering for decades. And so, I think it feels something tangible that we can do to address that so that we can still enjoy this great game that we all love, and also know that the people who are playing it and the folks who are surrounding them are safe.

NK: Thank you for this, Jessie. I appreciate your time.

JR: Yeah, any time.

TS: Jessie Rodger is the executive director of the sexual assault centre Anova. We reached them in London.

[sombre instrumental]

Labrador Fires

TS: Susan Chislett has been through wildfires before. People in Churchill Falls, Labrador, won't soon forget the wildfire that encroached on the community last summer. And last night brought an eerily familiar sight. Crews and water bombers were called in to fight a wildfire burning nearby. Today, the situation has improved, and the fire is moving away from homes in Churchill Falls. But Ms. Chislett said the experience brought back some hard memories.

SOUNDCLIP

SUSAN CHISLETT: It was just from no smoke to the the sky was engulfed in that area of the community. And it looked really close compared to what, it is close, but it looked really close considering the flames, the height of the flames, and the way the smoke was going, things like that. So, it was a little bit nerve-wrecking to say the least. But like always, Churchill Falls has always been together. And all the fire crews, people, any of the personnel that were actually fighting the fire, they were exceptional. The community just come back together as a family, and we did what we had to do to get through last night.

ANDREA MAGUIRE: And how did that compare with the fires last year, just in the distance to the community?

SC: Well, last year, we had, you know, I guess in the back of our minds, the fire was always a distance away, even though when you seen the numbers, they were typically close. But this fire yesterday was right at next door. If the wind had changed, it was there. And in the area that it was, was the company gas station, the power plant, the switcher, different things that they have up there to man the power plant. That if the fire had to, you know, get too close to it, the heat, it could have been a disaster. It was closer to home than we realized compared to last year, and last year was pretty nerve-wracking.

AM: Wow! I imagine nerves had to have been running very high, especially given all the evacuations last year. How was everyone feeling last night?

SC: I think a lot of people were nerve-wracked. But in saying that, I think a lot a people were prepared. But always make sure that your neighbours, your friends, you know, your coworkers, wherever you're to, make sure you guys are all okay. That, you know, everybody deals with stress and different things differently. So, how I would deal with it, you know, manning two evacuations last year might be completely different to someone new that's just on the scene and has never dealt with a fire before. So, stick with each other and just hope. Man the stations and do what we got to do until it's time to go, right?

TS: Susan Chislett lives in Churchill Falls, Newfoundland and Labrador. She was speaking with the CBC's Andrea Maguire.

[lounge jazz]

Trump TACO Columnist

Guest: Robert Armstrong

TS: U.S. President Donald Trump has made it very clear: he doesn't want to hear about TACO. Not the incredibly yummy Mexican dish...but TACO the acronym -- which some have been applying to his tariff policies. Mr. Trump was asked about it yesterday in the oval office.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: Mr. President, Wall Street analysts have coined a new term called the TACO trade. They're saying Trump always chickens out on your tariff threats, and that's why markets are higher this week. What's your response to that?

DONALD TRUMP: I kick out?

REPORTER: Chicken out.

DT: Oh, isn't that nice. Chicken out, I've never heard that. You mean because I reduced China from 145 per cent that I set down to 100? I gave the European Union a 50 per cent tax tariff, and they called up and they said, please, let's meet right now. Please, let's meet right now. You call that chickening out? Six months ago, this country was stone-cold dead. We had a dead country. We had a country people didn't think it was going to survive, and you ask a nasty question like that. It's called negotiation, but don't ever say what you said. That's a nasty question.

TS: Donald Trump responding to the TACO acronym that's catching on in discussions of his flip-flopping tariff policy. That term was coined by Financial Times columnist Robert Armstrong. We reached him in New York.

NK: Robert, was this the dream when you came up with TACO that it would not only be read around the world, but make it to an Oval Office press conference?

ROBERT ARMSTRONG: It's not the dream. It's the nightmare. The thing about Trump chickening out is that it's good. Trump's tariff policies are very bad and destructive, right? So, when I talk about TACO, and Trump chicken out, I'm like, there's this good thing happening, where he doesn't follow through on these bad ideas. And I don't think this is going to happen, but I have this slight worry that now he knows the phrase and it's banging around in his head. He'll stop chickening. Which is exactly [chuckling] the outcome I don't want!

NK: You had to know that it might reach his ears or his eyes?

RA: I didn't know! It's just a dumb joke from a finance newsletter. And I have no idea how these things break containment and get out into the world and become things that people are talking about. You may understand the mysteries of social media better than I do.

NK: No. [chuckling] I hear you. Yeah, it is hard to predict what will and won't go viral. But if we're talking about jokes that might be innocuous, obviously, a different setting, but, you know, at the White House Correspondents' Dinner, there was a joke there years ago that helped change the course of history, right?

RA: Yes. It certainly did, yes. And I like my obscurity. I want everybody to read my newsletter, but I do not want to change the course of history.

NK: Well, we'll see what happens. But what happened? How did this phrase -- "Trump always chickens out -- pop" into your head in the first place?

RA: Well, you know, for the FT, I write this newsletter every day. And we were just observing this phenomenon where Trump would make a very loud threat about tariffs, and markets -- stock markets, bond markets -- would panic. And then, a day or a week would pass and Trump would take it back, almost without any prompting whatsoever, and the markets would rebound. And this happened with electronics. And it happened with the Liberation Day reciprocal tariffs. And it happened recently with the Europe 50 per cent tariff. And so eventually, you're writing about this stuff all time all the time and you just need a tag line so you don't have to explain what you're talking about every time. And, you know, I was just, like, trying different things. And TACO kind of popped into my mind, possibly because I was hungry, but possibly because it's also sounds a little bit like something the president would make up himself.

NK: Yes.

RA: Do you know what I mean? It's the kind of petty jive that he sort of likes, and it also has a slightly Mexican flavour to it, which is very funny in the case of this president who's obsessed with the border. So, it just kind of worked, but I wasn't trying to change the world with it. I was just trying to have a shorthand for myself in my newsletter to talk about a market phenomenon that I thought was very real.

NK: Yeah. And now, your colleagues have posted that they're, quote, desperately coining new Mexican-flavoured market acronyms in an attempt to go viral. [RA laughs] They've come up with TAQUITO for "Trump always quickly undoes initial trade offensives". It's not tACO, but I mean, they've got something there, maybe.

RA: I wish them luck. You know, I don't know why this one went viral, and I won't predict what the next viral Mexican food-themed financial acronym will be.

NK: Trump, as you have heard, and you listening to that clip, more than words maybe today, he does not agree. He thinks these threats are a great negotiating tool. He says China and Europe are, his words, begging for a deal.

NK: Yes. How do you respond to what you've been hearing from the president?

RA: Well, the first point is, this is a serious enough point. It is a classic principle of negotiation that you go in with a very high ask. And that anchors the conversation at that high number. And so, it's easier to come to a compromise that's closer to you. And so, fair enough, that's part of how you negotiate. What's weird in Trump's case is that he makes his concessions before the other side has even had a chance to talk. So, I don't really understand what the strategy is. It's like the least bit of economic or market pressure gets put on him, even before negotiations begin, and he just immediately wilts. And what this says to me is, Trump likes tariffs on TV. But in real life, he's not really prepared to sacrifice that much in terms of popularity, say, or political capital in order to get these policies through. So, he just doesn't seem to care that much about these policies, except as kind of rhetorical tools.

NK: Well, and he knows that his supporters or certain segments of the population will only hear the first thing he says, or see the sign, that poster board, he was holding up at that at that one news conference.

RA: Correct.

NK: And whatever happens after that day or after those comments, they will remember that he appeared tough to them, right?

RA: Of course. And there's a fantastic irony here. The recent intervention of the courts and blocking him and all the trouble he's having getting these tariffs through might be politically ideal for him in the following sense. The tariffs, if they'd gone through, in my view, would have been an economic disaster. And they would have his economic disaster. If the courts, or political opposition, or any annoying journalists, or anybody else manages to stop him from doing this stuff, then he gets to say I tried to give you these miraculous tariffs. The woke court stopped me, and I'm still your guy, right? And so, the fact that now the tariffs are running into trouble, and people are having second thoughts, and the courts are saying the way he's executing them may be unconstitutional, that may end up working to his advantage.

NK: Robert, this was a pleasure. I appreciate this. Thank you.

RA: Yeah, it was fun. Call anytime.

TS: Robert Armstrong is a columnist for the Financial Times. We reached him in New York.

[ambient]

Tony Hawk Visit

TS: When a skateboard park in a small town celebrates its new expansion, usually the biggest celebrity there is the mayor. In Smithers, B.C. today, the best known name in skateboarding showed up -- Tony Hawk. He told CBC Radio's Radio West that he came to Smithers because he wants to help the next generation get as much as he has out of the sport.

SOUNDCLIP

TONY HAWK: It was my salvation. I mean, that's where I found my sense of belonging, my sense of community, ultimately my sense of purpose. And it kept me really engaged, and, like, a sense of belonging that I didn't have elsewhere. You know, skating was not cool when I was growing up. So, the idea that I had some place to do it, and other people that were like me, even though we were all kind of misfits, was hugely important. And it was the '80s. Like, there weren't resources for mental health. There were no safe spaces. But the skate park was my safe space.

SARAH PENTON: And how would you describe the skate community now?

TH: I think the skate community is the most inclusive sport, culture, art form there is, honestly. I mean, if you go to a skate park in almost any town, you'll find people from all walks of life, all ages, all genders, all races, and they are enjoying the space all at the same time. And encouraging each other. As much as it is an individual activity, it's also a very communal one.

SP: And you're, and then you're a big part of that, and you've stayed a big part of that. How come? You could have hung up your board a long, long time ago and just rested on your laurels. Where does that passion come from?

TH: Well, [laughing] I mean, at some point, I'm just sort of stubborn and addicted to skateboarding. But I think it's more that I never imagined it would be like this. I never imagined that skateboarding would come to a place where it's encouraged by parents, where communities would support it. And so, to live in this time, and then to be able to participate, it's beyond any dream that I could have. So, why wouldn't I?

SP: Have you ridden the park? What's the first thing you're gonna do on it?

TH: Oh, first thing I plan to do is not fall.

SP: And then what?

TH: Well, I'll probably hit the bowl and do some grinds, do some "Rock 'n Rolls", maybe some "Ninjas", maybe helping some of the newer generation learn techniques. I mean, it's just more a gathering. So, we hope to inspire kids to chase their dreams.

TS: Skateboarding legend Tony Hawk speaking to Sarah Penton, the host of CBC B.C.'s Radio West.

[chillhop house tour music]

Part 3: Oldest Fingerprint, Quebec Illegal Dumping

FOA: Susan Brownmiller Obit

TS: When Susan Brownmiller broke into journalism, she pitched stories that were bold, unfiltered and way ahead of their time. How to Get an Abortion, How to Have an Orgasm. These were still radical ideas to see in print in the 1960s and '70s. She went on to co-found the New York Radical Feminists, help launch Women Against Pornography, and write seven books. She was also a quintessential New Yorker: she loved dogs, movies, baseball, and was reportedly an avid poker player with a killer bluff. Susan Brownmiller died on Saturday after a long illness. She was 90 years old. In 1975, her novel Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape dissected everything from sexual violence in war zones to the courtroom bias faced by survivors. The response was electric. Time Magazine named her one of its “Women of the Year”. But the book also drew pushback, particularly from critics who accused Brownmiller of reinforcing Black stereotypes in her treatment of rape and race. That same year, Brownmiller appeared on As It Happens.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: I'm sure I don't have to tell you that many men are deeply angered by your book. They feel it's motivated by a total loathing of them. And they think you're suggesting that all sex relations, all human relations between men and women, are based on assault. And they're very, very annoyed with you.

SUSAN BROWNMILLER: Well, I can understand they're being angered because I do indict the entire male gender. I do say that men must take responsibility for the rapist in their midst. You know, we have a very popular commercial here. I see it on television all the time. It goes, people cause pollution, people can stop pollution. I think that's a little simplistic about pollution. However, I do think that it's men who have caused rape, and it is men who can stop rape. If men really care to rid the popular culture of what I call the male ideology of rape, the presentation in the popular cultural that rape is an act of eroticism, not an act of forcible violence. Which, of course, to a woman, it is.

BF: Of course, what they throw in your face then is that women, too, are turned on by James Bond-type movies. And that if a lot of women don't have a direct rape fantasy, they certainly find part of their sexual turn on from a strongly aggressive man. And they say we can't have our cake and eat it too. Which is a hideous kind of an expression to use in this context. [both chuckle]

SB: Well, Barbara, I won't deny that many women are influenced by the same cultural conditioning that influences men. And it is men who define sexuality for us. And it's men who have made a myth, an erotic myth, of rape.

BF: What do you think about all the rage now in women against men? You know, all these buttons, "Help Stamp out Rape", all the self-defence classes and so on? Is that really a proper attitude to take, do you think? Is that a logical response, or is that just women now expressing their power urges?

SB: Well, you know, I spent four years detailing male hostility against women. And I traced it from the earliest times to the present. And I am convinced that women have always suffered from the rage of men. Um, I'm not at all troubled by this new rage on the part of women. I'm really not troubled, and I think it's a healthier reaction than the former psychology of women, which was, really, victimization. And I mean this particularly for women who have been victimized by rape. It's only been in the last few years that women who had been raped have been able to talk openly about it, and have been able to come to terms with their rage. Because you can't have a physical assault against you without feeling rage. I mean, rage would be the healthy reaction. An unhealthy reaction would be to take on the burden of shame and guilt, which is what women traditionally did.

TS: From Our Archives, that was renowned author Susan Brownmiller speaking with former As It Happens host Barbara Frum in 1975. The author died on Saturday. She was 90 years old.

[ambient]

Oldest Fingerprint

Guest: Maria de Andrés-Herrero

TS: Archeologists working on a Neanderthal site in central Spain are used to digging up and discarding many rocks and pebbles, but this one gave them pause. The oval-shaped rock has indentations that...under certain light...resemble a face. And right in the middle...where the nose would be... sits a red dot from an ochre-dipped finger. At 43,000 years old, it's believed to be the oldest full fingerprint ever found. But the scientists behind the discovery say it's far more than just a fingerprint. Maria de Andrés-Herrero is one the archeologists from the project. She is a professor of pre-history at the Complutense University of Madrid. We reached her in Segovia...near the archeological site.

NK: Professor, do you remember the moment when you saw this artifact up close for the first time?

MARIA DE ANDRÉS-HERRERO: Yeah, it was a weird moment because, obviously, it's not what you expect when you are excavating a Neanderthal site. You are used to find tools, you are used find bones, but a stone with a red dot and with this particular form, it's very weird. So, at the first moment, students pop up and, oh, it looks like a face with a red dot. This is weird. And yeah, it was curious. This is the first time we have the stone in our hands. Yeah, with the shadows and the light of day, it was like if the stone was looking at you.

NK: It was like the stone was looking right back at you. [MDAH chuckles] How big is it?

MDAH: Yeah, it's like 20 centimetres.

NK: Okay.

MDAH: It's much bigger than the normal stones that appear at the site. In the case of hammers, they are smaller, that you can use with one hand. It doesn't have any signs or marks that show that it was used as a hammer for using to hit bones or something.

NK: Right.

MDAH: Yeah, they brought this stone to the site, so they put the red dot and they leave and they abandon the site.

NK: You say they. Some of the coverage says clearly that a male Neanderthal did this, do you know that?

MDAH: We have to somehow demonstrate that this red dot was intentional. And then, we contact the Spanish scientific police and ask an unusual question for them [NK chuckles] that was if they were able to find a fingerprint in this red dot? Because if you look at the red dot and the stone, it's not visible. So, they look at the stone. They thought we were really weird people at the moment [both laugh] because they are used to find fingerprints. But one week ago, or two weeks ago, but this has 45,000 years. It was an unusual question for them to find this type of clue. Once they found the fingerprint, they analyzed the fingerprint and they said that a Neanderthal man put the fingertip in the stone with ochre.

NK: It's funny that, you know, you call up police with forensic experience, and what did they say to you? You know, you're scientists, you've done research as well. What did they say?

MDAH: [laughing] Yeah, it was a funny moment. Honestly, we are friends now with the police. And they said, OK, we thought the first time you came here, we thought you watch maybe too much Netflix police series. [both laugh]

NK: But now, I'm sure they love it; they're part of this big discovery.

MDAH: Yes, of course, they are so proud of this discovery because, of course, this is the oldest fingerprint, oldest complete fingerprint in Europe. And yeah, it was amazing when we saw the fingerprint the first time, yeah.

NK: And not everyone agrees that this immediately looks like a face to them.

MDAH: Yeah, we know.

NK: So, what made you sure that this was a work of art, and figurative art at that?

MDAH: I will start with, we are sure that a Neanderthal man, an adult, brought the stone to the rock cellar. We are sure that a Neanderthal man put a red dot in this position, and intentionally. So, and the debate here is about are Neanderthal able to recognize things that are familiar to us? And, of course, we were not there. We don't know. But we are sure that this stone is different of the whole archeological record we have in the site. And why exactly? The reason we don't know.

NK: Do you think, Professor, this might change the way Neanderthals are perceived?

MDAH: Yes. What we thought is that they, obviously, changed the meaning of the stone with this red dot. If we found the stone without the red dot, we say, OK, this is weird, but that's all. But if Neanderthals put the red dot, obviously, it changed the meaning. So, this makes us to think that Neanderthals could be able to bring another significance to the rocks.

NK: So, maybe they're not, as people assume, or we've come to believe, that they were quite simplistic, simple, but maybe they were not so simple?

MDAH: Yes, that's right. Neanderthals, the word Neanderthals, has been used as a disrespective term in normal language. So, with this discovery, we think that this line that was heavily put by scientists 100 years ago and 30 years ago was a bit thinner. This recent discovery, we are not sure, but we think that our closest relatives look more like us than we previously thought. So, this heavy line that was drawn 30 years ago between Neanderthals and our species, it's a bit thinner. So, we are not as different as Neanderthsals.

NK: Professor, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MDAH: Thank you very much.

TS: Maria de Andrés-Herrero is a professor of pre-history at the Complutense University of Madrid. We spoke to her from Segovia.

[ambient]

Indig. Right’s In A Minute

TS: Bruce McIvor wants to prove that Canadians can learn a lot about Indigenous rights -- with only a little bit of time. The Metis lawyer's new book makes that explicit: It's called Indigenous Rights in One Minute. What You Need to Know to Talk Reconciliation. And it's already become a best-seller. The book offers short, simple answers to questions like "Is it true that Indigenous people don't pay taxes? and "Why does the government have to consult with First Nations?" Here is Bruce McIvor speaking to CBC B.C.'s Daybreak North host Carolina de Ryk.

SOUNDCLIP

BRUCE MCIVOR: The way they're written is to respond to the questions that I've heard so often doing this work across the country. And it's written for non-lawyers. The format is a question, a one answer response, and then two or three paragraphs that gets into it in more detail, but it's all written clear, plainly, for a non-lawyer audience that wants to get better informed in order to participate meaningfully in reconciliation.

CAROLINA DE RYK: I was really intrigued by the dedication at the beginning of the book. It simply reads, for my clients. Why did you want to write this book?

BM: Yeah, because so much of this work, it's driven by what I do for First Nations on behalf of them all across the country. And they have an underlying optimism that Canada can be a better place. And I think to be part of that, I've got a responsibility to play my role, not just going to court for them, but trying to improve the level of dialog and conversation across the country. So, that's why I dedicated it to my clients.

CDR: How challenging was it to try to address these very complex issues in one minute without oversimplifying?

BM: Very challenging, I have to say. It took a long time to write, but the fact is it's challenging because of how Canadian law works. So, the sections in my book about just trying to describe different categories of Indigenous people, First Nations, status, Metis, it's a really good example of, through no fault of Indigenous people, the law that's been imposed on them is so terribly complicated.

CDR: What is the most important thing that you want people listening this morning to think about if they're picking up this book?

BM: I think there's a responsibility on everyone to play a meaningful role in reconciliation. I think there's a responsibility on the legal profession to provide that information, and that's what I've tried to do. But there's also a responsibility, particularly on non-Indigenous people. If you have an opinion, try to learn a little bit about Indigenous rights to see whether that's a fair opinion or not.

TS: That was Bruce McIvor speaking to the CBC's Carolina de Ryk about his new book, Indigenous Rights in One Minute. What You Need to Know to Talk Reconciliation.

[indie rock]

Bee Atlas

TS: If you feel like there's a real buzz around Kamloops, B.C. these days, you're right. And now, there’s proof. Researchers in British Columbia are working on the first-ever bee atlas for the province. The city is home to a range of native bee species -- including a certain kind of fairy bee. And experts are certain there are more species out there. The project started last fall, when Kamloops residents and students from Oregon State University trekked out to some wetlands to catalogue bee populations. Elaine Sedgeman is a member of the Native Bee Society of BC. She told CBC that most people aren't aware just how diverse -- and big -- B.C.'s bee population is.

SOUNDCLIP

ELAINE SEDGEMAN: Kamloops is a real hotspot, as is Kelowna and Penticton, and that area. We have so many ecosystems here. So, there's the alpine and the grasslands, and where semi-arid, semi-arid is really good for interesting bees.

CHRIS WALKER: Well, how easy would it be for Kamloopsians to find these bees in the wild?

ES: Well, I'm looking for them. So, and I've been trained to look at them through the Master Melittologist Program through Oregon State. But I think an ordinary person who doesn't really know, I mean, they would, they would see bumblebees. And they would know that that was a bee. And, and of course, honeybees. But some of these other ones, you know, like most bees are single moms that nest in the ground. And when they see these bees flying around, they think, oh, that's a wasp. That's the wasp. And unfortunately, a lot of these bees do look like wasps, especially the, um, the cuckoo bees, because they don't have any pollen-collecting hairs. So, they think they're wasps or flies. Some of them look like flies, too. So, they don't realize that they're bees. So, when I do my talks and talk to people about this, they're absolutely gobsmacked because they didn't realize B.C. has about 500 species of bees.

TS: Elaine Sedgeman is a member of the Native Bee Society of BC. She was speaking to Daybreak South host Chris Walker in Kelowna earlier today.

[electronic]

Quebec Illegal Dumping

Guest: Christine McAleer

TS: In Ormstown, Quebec, officials have been keeping a close eye on trucks hauling construction waste into town. Instead of going to a landfill, the trucks are illegally dumping waste from Montréal construction sites on private land. Ormstown is one of five municipalities in the area dealing with this problem. And now, a new report from researchers at McGill University and the University of Vermont suggests the issue is widespread. Christine McAleer is the mayor of Ormstown. That's where we reached her.

NK: Mayor, when did you first find out that this illegal dumping was happening in Ormstown?

CHRISTINE MCALEER: Well we found out about our situation about two years ago, when there was illegal dumping done on either side of our municipal wells. And also, about two year ago, I had participated in a panel with McGill where they were talking about the work they were doing surveying the area and all that. But definitely, from the results of the study that McGill has done, and the amount of sites they have discovered, I'd say it's been going on for a very long time.

NK: You think longer than two years?

CA: Oh, definitely.

NK: You mentioned the researchers from McGill, Mayor, researchers from Vermont were also involved in this. And they identified close to 300 potentially illegal dumping sites -- 55 of them are in Ormstown. So, what did you make, Mayor, of that scale? How has this been going on for so long?

CA: Well, you know, the geography here is that it's, we have an urban centre, which is not very big, but the rest are all country roads. It's a very large territory. We cover 70 kilometres all around. And, you know, the people who are doing this are usually coming at odd hours, when people are not working, during evenings, early mornings, weekends. And it's difficult for small municipalities like us to have the amount of staff and finances necessary to be able to survey all of our roads. So, what we're doing is we're relying on people who actually see it happen and will give us a call and tell us, well, maybe you should go check out this site or this site, there's something going on. The actual dumping at our municipal wells, I was called by a local reporter, telling me, do you know what's going on with the trucks on that road that are heading to your wells? And we were not aware particularly that day. So, that's how it all started for us.

NK: And there are reports that the people who own the land are being paid off by companies to allow waste to be dumped on their land, companies or whoever is doing this. Do you have an idea about who is doing the dumping?

CA: Well, we don't know who is behind the actual companies, but what we're seeing out here are the trucking companies that are hired out to do the transport, but who's behind it? Particularly, a lot of times there are numbered companies and all that that we don't have access to.

NK: You do have regulations, obviously, and rules, and fines if those rules are broken for anyone who's caught illegally dumping waste in Ormstown. Those inspectors you mentioned, when they try to enforce those kinds of fines, what sorts of things are you hearing that they're encountering?

CA: A lot of the times when it's illegal dumping, our inspectors are not very well received on the properties. They're asked to get off the properties, they'll be refused access, they'll be intimidated, they will be pushed, shoved, yelled at, screamed at, threatened. So, there have been times when we've had to have the police accompany them.

NK: This is a lot for any community to deal with, but do you and does Ormstown have the kind of resources?

CA: No. I have one inspector. A lot of the smaller municipalities around us don't even have a full-time inspector. And, you know, his job, he has various jobs as an inspector for the town. There's no way he can be on the road seven days, 24 hours, and that's almost what it would take to be able to actually make a big dent in this process.

NK: Are you speaking with the province, Mayor, about trying to get some help from them?

CA: Whenever this happens, and we do find contaminated soil, we immediately contact. It's not usual that they will come immediately. It can take a while before they come. And then, once they take over, it's out of our hands. But it's very difficult to get them to react fast enough. [chuckle]

NK: Sounds like you'd like a little more help.

CA: I would definitely like a little more help. And if I think about what's going on with our wells, right now, it's in the hands of lawyers. This is, you know, we've had to test since we know that it's contaminated beside the wells, we're testing more often. The legal fees are mounting at a rate that we can't even keep up with. And, you know, since this is mostly a provincial matter, we definitely would need help with the legal side of things. Because, again, we don't have a legal department in our municipalities and all that. So, the legal fees went up real fast. And, you know, at this point, like, for us, it's been going on for two years and there's no end in sight right now.

NK: You mentioned the wells. And beyond the additional cost for residents, I mean, there must be increasing concern, I would imagine. What kinds of environmental risks are you worried about if this continues?

CA: We're worried about the wells being contaminated, the watershed. And so, I don't think people understand that, you know, if the watershed gets polluted, even the private wells are going to be infected, are going be, you know, contaminated also. And I don t think people realize that, you know? They think that maybe there's several or thousands of watersheds in the area, which is not the case. We're not equipped for it. We’re just not. And so, if the watershed is contaminated, I'm gonna have to start looking for other wells. It's not a matter of a couple of days or a couple weeks. We have to start digging. We have to start testing these new wells. We have to have them approved by the government. That could take years. So, what do we do in the meantime? We're gonna have water coming in from where?

NK: Mayor, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

CA: Thank you very much. Have a good day.

TS: Christine McAleer is the mayor of Ormstown, Quebec. We reached out to Quebec's environment ministry. In an email, a spokesperson for the ministry said it was well aware of the issue. The ministry has stepped up its inspections since 2018, and has issued several notices of non-compliance and fines over the past year. The email went on to say the public can report illegal dumping through an online form.

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Vintage Car Driver

TS: A vintage car is a rarity. One that's been parked in the same spot for 85 years -- even harder to find. Especially if it's spent all that time sitting at the bottom of a lake. A team of divers recently set eyes on a car that's been rumoured for years to be below Lake Minnewanka in Banff National Park. One of them is Alan Keller. He spoke to CBC Calgary host Loren McGinnis.

SOUNDCLIP

ALAN KELLER: I don't know much about the car, other than the legend or rumour about the car that the guides share about it. That a gentleman was on the ice; he wanted to take a picture of his car with the backdrop of the mountains. And he's setting up his camera, and as he's turning around, his car fell through the ice.

LOREN MCGINNIS: Glug, glug, glug.

AK: Yeah, exactly.

LM: Okay, take us to the moment that you saw it. Like, what was it like when you first encountered it?

AK: There was a lot of stuff going on initially when we found it. So, when we go down, we didn't see it right away because we weren't that lucky. We had to do a little bit of searching. So we did a spoke pattern. And then, about the third time that we went out, my buddy Johnny saw it. And so, he was the first one to lay eyes on it. Then I was, of course, the second. But it was a state of, like, holy cow, we actually found it. That's very lucky to be able to find something so small on a first go. But also to be the first people to lay your eyes on after 85 years was pretty, pretty spectacular. And just the condition of the visibility, that sort of thing, to be able to see it properly and take proper images of it, it all worked out.

LM: Oh, yeah. You know, you see the licence plate on the front is still, you know, you got the numbers. You can give the guy a ticket for parking in the wrong place, I suppose. [both laugh]

AK: Yeah.

TS: Diver and photographer Alan Keller speaking to CBC Calgary host Loren McGinnis.

The AIH Transcript For May 29, 2025

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