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The AIH Transcript for November 08, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Perfect storm. For the second time in weeks, Cuba's power grid is down. And a farmer tells us Hurricane Rafael is adding to a sea of troubles.

CH: Block party. The Australian Government announces plans to prevent kids under 16 from accessing social media accounts, which is getting a like from our guest who campaigned for that change.

NK: New world disorder. John Bolton, the hawkish former adviser to the current U.S. president-elect, tells us what a second Trump administration might mean for Ukraine, NATO and Canada.

CH: It's not du, it's mich. Germany's ruling coalition breaks up when Chancellor Olaf Scholz fires his finance minister. An MP tells us he's worried about what the split will mean for the future.

NK: The voice of a generation. He greeted millions of computer users warmly every day for years. But the late Elwood Edwards was only paid 50 bucks for recording himself, saying. "You've got mail".

CH: And he put his, very nice. And he put his best feet forward but finished up on his worst feet. Our guest just walked from Los Angeles to New York barefoot. We'll find out why he decided to bare his sole and his other sole. As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that's glad he had amble opportunity.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Hurricane Rafael Cuba, John Bolton, U.S. Barefoot Walker, You've Got Mail Guy Obit.

Hurricane Rafael Cuba

Guest: Annabelle Cantarero

CH: Once again, Cuba is without power. The island nation was already dealing with an energy crisis, and this week, Hurricane Rafael has done even more damage, knocking out the entire country's power grid for the second time in just weeks. The category three hurricane destroyed hundreds of homes and forced tens of thousands of people to evacuate. And Annabelle Cantarero has had to watch from abroad. She and her husband run a farm in Artemisa, a province that is hard hit by Rafael. They happened to be away in Peru when the storm hit and they haven't been able to get a flight home. We reached Annabelle Cantarero in Lima.

NK: Annabelle, I know you're out shopping in Lima today. What are you picking up?

ANNABELLE CANTARERO: We're trying to look for the best prices to buy solar lamps, rechargeable lamps and any necessary equipment and rubber gloves and heavy duty gloves to bring to Cuba tomorrow after the hurricane Rafael. Of course, we didn't know the hurricane will pass through the island before, so we already have some [inaudible] full, but we are going to prioritize the of course, the most needed.

NK: Yeah. And as our listeners just heard, you haven't been able to get a flight home for quite some time now as planned.

AC: Because airports are closed.

NK: So when did you find out? You'll be able to fly back.

AC: We got to the renewal of the tickets for Saturday. So basically the next day. We were supposed to fly very early morning of Wednesday.

NK: Of this past Wednesday, a couple of days ago. And now you're flying out tomorrow? Okay.

AC: Yes.

NK: Yeah. During that time you're trying to get in touch with your neighbours and people back home in Cuba. How did you finally get through?

AC: So it was one of the most difficult, I think, situation we have faced because even in the past hurricane events we had in the farm, there was always one of us or both of us before. And this time we couldn't be there. So basically the team show up and they stay, [inaudible] stay in the farm to... And they took charge of reinforcing everything. But of course, a lot of damage is done because we are located in Artemisa province. So basically we were directly by the hurricane and until Tuesday night we got some news from them and they let us know that, well, the wind was too strong. So since Wednesday morning, we couldn't have any more news until today morning that they send us some pictures. And a friend of ours went, from Bauta went to the farm to take a video to let us know how things were.

NK: And what did that video reveal to you?

AC: Well, very bad. We already knew because all the electricity wires are down, all the many trees, sadly, the fruit plant trees, which is, I think, one of the things, I mean, of course, the biggest concern was keep everyone is safe. But as you can imagine, being your [inaudible] trees down, it's yeah, it's hard to see that. Well, we are looking now for a chainsaw to see we can try to help some of the trees survive, [cross talk] we have, a 10 years baobabs fell down.

NK: A 10 year old baobabs tree was down.

AC: Yeah, yeah. It was something that we were very proud of.

NK: To let our listeners know, Cuba is still recovering from Hurricane Oscar. Hurricane Milton. [AC: Yeah]. How do you prepare for that kind of reality and deal with what has already happened?

AC: So I can tell you by our own farming experience since we have been 10 years on the island, doing it's been... And living in the rural area, doing agricultural organic farming, that there is always, you know, you can get ready for these sort of climate hazard events. But this time I was sharing with many friends that the timing was so short and the speed of the hurricane coming from a storm to a hurricane was so quick that it even if we try, there was not enough time and not enough equipment to get ready so we wouldn't be ready on time.

NK: And on top of that, there's the blackouts, which we've reported on before. Given all of that, do you ever think of leaving?

AC: So during the pandemic, which was I will say, the hardest, one of the hardest moments as a family on the farm. But the energy in the community was very different. Despite everything, people kind of felt supported by the local authorities. And this time I can tell you it's very different. People is kind of exhausted because in the countryside, in our province, for example, we were having already blackouts for more than two years, since 2021. So, it's not like, like in the capital that they are now this year facing like longer and really bad blackouts in the provinces it's been for a long time. [NK: Yeah]. So we are... my daughter was born in Cuba, two days ago in a [inaudible] they asked her [NK: She just turned five right?] Where are you from? And she was like, Hi! I am Cecile. I'm from Cuba. And it was like she was so natural. So, of course, as a family, we are very optimistic about the things we can do. But it's going to it's going to take time to really manage to also inject that optimism and find solutions not only for us, because we can be okay in the farm, but what about our neighbours? What about our community?

NK: What do you tell your daughter about what's happening back home?

AC: Well, for everyone [laughs through words] volunteers, even for friends from Canada that had come and volunteered. They know she's a very sensitive and smart girl. So she knows something big happened. She, even she wanted, like her father, to go back to the island. The same day we had scheduled our trip, she was like, I want to be with my kitty that we adopted a week ago. She was like, I don't want him to be alone. And I told her that I took care that someone will be in charge of the kitten and all of our pets and the animals in the farm. But we as adults, we need like space, mentally strong and tried to, of course, also feel, make them feel reassured. Yeah.

NK: Annabelle, I appreciate your time. Safe travels. Please take care.

AC: Thank you.

CH: Annabelle Cantarero runs a farm with her husband in Artemisa, Cuba. We reached her in Lima, Peru.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

John Bolton

Guest: John Bolton

CH: By now, most of the numbers are in after Tuesday's election in the United States. Donald Trump won at least 295 Electoral College votes in more than 70 million people's votes, making this the first time a Republican candidate has won the popular vote in 20 years. But another number dogged Mr. Trump during the election of 44 people he chose to serve in his cabinet during his first term. 40 declined to endorse him, including, of course, his own vice president. Among the most vocally opposed to the president he once served is John Bolton, who was Donald Trump's national security adviser for 17 months. He also acted as the U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. under George W. Bush. We reached John Bolton in Washington, D.C.

NK: Ambassador Bolton, I'd like to begin here in Canada, if you don't mind. If you were advising Prime Minister Justin Trudeau or leaders of other democracies about dealing with Donald Trump this time around. What would you tell them?

JOHN BOLTON: Well, I think it be much like it was during his first term, only worse. I mean, I think, although I earlier might have picked any number of crises around the world, that would be the first flashpoint, whether it's the war in the Middle East or Ukraine. I'm beginning to think now that for a variety of reasons, actually, it may be tariffs, given his desire to impose 20 per cent tariffs, perhaps on everything imported into the United States. I think tariffs with Canada, with U.K., with European Union, Japan, Korea, you name it, are going to be a very, very tense and difficult subject.

NK: About a month ago, you said in terms of Ukraine, quote, If Trump wins, I think it's toast, unquote. He has won, as you know. Is Ukraine toast in your view?

JB: Well, I'm very worried. He has said that he could solve the Ukraine problem by getting Zelenskyy and Putin in a room, they'd wrap it up in 24 hours. That's ridiculous. Just objectively speaking, Zelenskyy has already said that publicly. But it's really very easy to win the peace if you just force one side to surrender. So, it's a very worrying situation. And I think it could come fairly soon. We've seen Putin just in the past 24 hours say that he's prepared to have a conversation with Trump, but I guess he doesn't want to look like he's too eager to have it. But I think Putin thinks he's got his relationship with Trump is, is based on how he's going to take advantage of Trump. And he would be eager to sit down and start trying.

NK: Before the election in other interviews you also said there is a very high probability, in your words, that Donald Trump will withdraw from NATO. Do you still feel that way? And if that is the case, what do you think that means for Taiwan?

JB: Well, I think it's very bad news for Taiwan. I think the way we've discussed handling Ukraine is very bad news for Taiwan, too. Trump doesn't understand collective defence. He basically thinks we're defending European countries and Canada while we're at it. We don't get anything out of it ourselves. And these countries don't pay us enough for it. And most Americans, I will say, will ask fairly, in 2014, the entire NATO's alliance agreed to spend 2 per cent of GDP on defence. And a lot of countries still are doing it, including Canada. And Trump will use that as a cudgel against the alliance. It's not a bargaining technique to improve NATO. It's a technique to justify why the U.S. should pull out of it.

NK: We know Trump is perceived by his supporters to have an America first approach to foreign policy, and it appears that, that support is a clear rejection of the Reaganite peace through strength doctrine that you, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, all advocated for, certainly in Iraq and Afghanistan. So what do you say, Ambassador, to voters who support Donald Trump and JD Vance voted for them because they have promised to keep America out of what they call endless wars?

JB: Some people support that approach, others don't. And the problem is the virus of isolationism that Trump and others have helped unleashed. But the battle for the Republican Party and the direction it's going is far from over. And I think, in fact, out in the country, the view of that, Reagan and those who supported him held is still the majority in the party by a fair margin.

NK: Even with the final tally you saw. You don't think that Trump has a very tight hold on this party and its future?

JB: No, I don't. I don't. I think a lot of people gritted their teeth and said, we don't like Trump, but we think he's a better choice than Kamala Harris. But there are no final victories in politics. This is just one more skirmish.

NK: You've also said, you know, prior to the election and interviews about Donald Trump, you know, you were warning voters about him as well. You said you could not bring yourself to vote for Kamala Harris either. You talked about writing in Dick Cheney or possibly Liz Cheney on your ballot, though both of them, as you well know, actively supported Harris in this election and tried to get support for her. He is the president-elect now, as you know. Do you have any regrets about the message you sent to voters?

JB: No. I eventually wrote in Mike Pence because he at least did his constitutional duty. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. My first active involvement in an American political campaign was for Barry Goldwater, who lost by the biggest margin in American history. But we kept at the struggle and in 1980 elected Ronald Reagan. So just one more fight to fight.

NK: Do you have any regrets, Ambassador, about having worked for Donald Trump at all?

JB: Look, somebody is going to be national security adviser. That's a fact. My only regret is that I didn't do more to advance a better foreign policy for the country. But I don't regret the struggle and I don't regret the grief I've gone through since I left his employ. I did it for the country and I do it again.

NK: Donald Trump has named Susie Wiles as his chief of staff. She reportedly only agreed to take this job because he assured her the, quote, "clown car" would not be allowed to visit the White House. Do you think that Susie Wiles, architect of this winning campaign in many ways. Do you think she would be able to guard against some of the concerns that you've talked about and other former members of the administration, the first Trump administration have talked about?

JB: Well, I don't know. I mean, she's a political adviser. She's not been in government at senior levels. And whether she can keep the "clown car" from coming in is anybody's guess four other chiefs of staff worked for Trump in the first term and none of them succeeded.

NK: Donald Trump has described a second term as time for, quote, "retribution". The president-elect is certainly not a fan of yours. And that goes both ways, obviously, based on what you've said. Do you worry at all, though, you talked about grief you've experienced already? Do you worry about what the next few years might hold for you personally?

JB: Well, you know, what will happen will happen. I'm more worried about what he does to the country because I think he could cause great damage in the next four years. The best thing we can say is that he'll be a lame duck the day he takes the oath of office.

NK: Irreversible damage, do you think?

JB: Possibly. I think withdrawing from NATO would be irreversible damage.

NK: Ambassador Bolton, I appreciate your time.

JB: Okay. Thanks for having me.

CH: John Bolton is a former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations and served as Donald Trump's national security adviser from 2018 to 2019. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

[Music: Grunge instrumental]

U.S. Barefoot Walker

Guest: Anton Nootenboom

CH: It took about 260 days and five thousand kilometres for Anton Nootenboom to reach the end of a long, challenging journey. Mr. Nootenboom travelled from Los Angeles to New York, arriving in Times Square this week. And he did it on foot to advocate for men's mental health. And when I say on foot, I mean on foot. We reached Anton Nootenboom in New York.

NK: Anton, tell our listeners what you wore on your feet for this trek.

ANTON NOOTENBOOM: Absolutely nothing. And no socks, no shoes, not even a band aid.

NK: Nothing for that entire time.

AN: Yeah. From Santa Monica Beach in L.A. to all the way to Times Square, there was nothing on the feet. Not when I was resting. Not while I was walking. That was a challenge.

NK: I think in the beginning that could be freeing. But as I think about the length of the journey and the places you walked, my eyes squint a little bit. I imagine pain. I if you're squeamish, I imagine it could be gross. How would you describe it?

AN: Yeah, a bit of everything, for sure. I think already at the start I was being challenged because there was lots of rain in L.A. and the concrete of the sidewalks turns into sandpaper. So, like the soft skin, I still had, you know, shaved off pretty much straight away. And then, of course, you know, the Mojave Desert just walking on the pure rocks that feel like Lego pieces. Snow in the Rocky Mountains and then the heat in the Midwest. It's definitely been a challenge, but nothing they can't handle.

NK: Yeah. Clearly, you made it. But how are you and your feet doing at this point?

AN: Well, I'm definitely like, I need to recover, let me put it that way. And my feet are doing better than myself. But yeah, there's been so much happening after the finish. I'm looking forward to, to really be able to relax and let the body heal. I know the body will heal as soon as I give it time. [NK: Yeah]. But right now it's definitely breaking down. I know it was going to happen. Like the body runs on adrenaline for a long time, and then as soon as you stop it slowly start to release all the stresses you have to endure. But I know my body will heal.

NK: So what does that look and feel like right now for you? I mean, do you get, are you getting like a cold or a flu or just aches?

AN: Yeah, pretty much everything I am definitely getting like a bit of a cold and flu at the moment and the body's just hurting and struggling to walk longer [inaudible]. Yeah, I knew this was going to happen. I've done similar things, of course. And yeah, we can get through it.

NK: You're braced for that. Have you put on socks or shoes since?

AN: Yeah. They've not been off, only when I go to bed. But since the moment I crossed the finish line, it was a fresh pair of barefoot shoes waiting there. And I have not, you know, had them off for one second since I finished.

NK: How did it feel to slip them on in that moment?

AN: It's like walking on a cloud straight away, like just the comfort of having these barefoot shoes, but also not having to think where I put my feet. I was just able to look ahead when I was walking, you know, down to the floor. It's so much better.

NK: When you were talking about some of the difficulties, the rain stands out to me. I mean, how do you keep yourself and your feet healthy in those circumstances? You can't be walking around cold and wet.

AN: No, no, definitely not. I mean, like the wet, there's like. That's okay. The cold and the heat is definitely, you know, two things you can't really do a lot about. So when it got too cold, you know, I just had to make sure I kept the blood flowing and in the heat. I just had to stop walking some days around 1 p.m. and just start walking around 6 p.m. again. And the only thing you can do is give them rest. There's no lotion or anything you can put on because you need the skin to grow tough and hard and any lotion will make it go soft.

NK: So a pedicure is not in your future, I'm thinking.

AN: No, I mean, I'll definitely get one as soon as I get back to the Netherlands. But while walking, that would have been the worst thing.

NK: Yeah. You've mentioned you're an experienced walker and a record breaking walker already, but why did you want to start this particular trip back in February?

AN: Well, a few different reasons, but when it comes to mental health, the U.S. is definitely a place that needs a lot of attention also. I always wanted to see the U.S. like from west to east coast. And also, if you want to create change around the subject, like mental health, that goes far and wide, the U.S. is the perfect place for that because, you know, it just carries like such a large platform. But mainly I wanted to just create like a positive ripple effect going to all corners of this country here in the U.S..

NK: And you've talked about before that walking was a way for you to deal with mental health struggles of your own or just to feel better.

AN: Yeah, for me, it actually started unawarely when I was living in Sydney, when I was struggling with my own mental health. I just went outside and I just started to pace up and down the beach I was living at. And just along the way I started to feel the benefits of a walking one and walking barefoot, two. And I just wanted to share that message and create that same space with someone else.

NK: Your dog's excited that you're home. It sounds like.

AN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We picked up a poppy along the way. The puppy is the size of a black bear right now. [NK: Oh no] I'm in a hotel room we're at right now.

NK: You picked him up on the walk?

AN: Yeah, we just found him on the streets just outside of L.A. He was at a bus stop. Just this tiny little fluff ball, barely nine weeks old. He's ten months now. He's been with us his entire journey, but he's a big ball of energy, so we're trying to keep him quiet right now, which is proving to be difficult.

NK: That's okay. We like hearing from him. What's his name?

AN: Oreo [NK: Oreo] Yeah, he's a really good boy.

NK: That's, what a gift on such a long trek. What did the reaction from people as you crossed this country do for you? What kinds of things did people say? How did that help? I know your girlfriend and your new dog were in a camper van nearby. So you have that kind of support system as well. But to get it from strangers, what was that like?

AN: It's been amazing with a lot of negative news going around right now. I think I was in this perfect position to show that there is a million times more good people out there doing good things. And we got to see it every day, like everyone's just supporting and helping in whatever way they can if it's food, snacks, water. Place to stay, donations when it goes to mental health a subject like this really unites at the same time, which is beautiful to see.

NK: Anton, thank you for this. Take care of yourself.

AN: Thank you so much. Thanks for giving this space to share this story.

CH: Anton Nootenboom walked for 260 days from Los Angeles to New York, barefoot to bring attention to men's mental health. We reached him in New York City.

[Music: Guitalele instrumental]

You've Got Mail Guy Obit.

CH: Gather round youngsters and let me fascinate you with spellbinding tales of yore. For example, did ye know that at one time our mobile phones had giant screens and full size keyboards and they were computers that sat on desks? Sorry. I'll stop doing that. And then to get access to the internet, we had to listen to terrible sounds before a warm voice ushered us into the future. [Dial-up tone] [EE: Welcome]. And then if we were lucky, that same warm voice informed us that we were loved. [EE: You've got mail]. That is the voice of Elwood Edwards. In 1989, his wife was working for the company that would become AOL, which had decided to add some voice prompts to its new software from an AOL promotional video in 2012. Here's Mr. Edwards telling the rest of the story.

SOUNDCLIP

ELWOOD EDWARDS: So she volunteered my voice. And on a cassette deck in my living room. I recorded the phrases that you've come to know, such as: [Hey Elwood look what we've got] We've got emails. You've got mail. So I went on the record. Welcome. You've got mail. Files done. Goodbye. And what started off as a test has continued to this day.

CH: It seems pretty good natured about repeating. You've got mail over and over. Considering AOL only paid him two hundred dollars for the original recordings, that is 50 bucks a prompt. Meaning he got 50 bucks to say you've got mail to tens of millions of people multiple times a day for years and years. And that was it. There were no residuals, no royalties, no further payments at all. Elwood Edwards died on Tuesday at the age of 74. He did not seem to resent his extremely modest payday or being sort of famous for saying four things. He had a long career working behind the scenes at local news stations before eventually becoming an Uber driver, during which time it seems like a lot of people asked him to say, you've got mail.

SOUNDCLIP

EE: Welcome. You've got mail.

FEMALE VOICE: No way. Do it again. Do it again.

EE: You've got mail.

CH: It sounds like a recurring nightmare until you realize Mr. Edwards must have told his passengers that he was the 'You've got mail' guy. So the truth is, he must have welcomed the repeat business.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Part 2: Aus. Social Media Ban, Amsterdam Football Attack, Germany Government Collapse, 104 Year Old Vet

Aus. Social Media Ban

Guest: Rob Galluzzo

CH: Australia is about to reduce a lot of people's screen time. The Australian Government is going to try to block social media access for people under 16. Prime Minister Anthony Albanese explained his thinking at a press conference yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

ANTHONY ALBANESE: The fact is that young women see images of particular body shapes that impact, have a real impact in the real world. And young men, through some of the misogynistic material that they get sent to them not because they ask for it. But if you're a 14 year old kid getting this stuff at a time where you're going through life's changes and maturing, it can be a really difficult time. And what we're doing is listening and then acting.

CH: Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese announcing that his government would be raising the minimum age, that it will allow social media companies to sign people up from 13 to 16. That 36 month increase follows a high profile lobbying campaign that was called, appropriately enough, '36 months'. It was the brainchild of an Australian radio host who goes by the name Wippa. And the film and television CEO Rob Galluzzo. So we reached Mr. Galluzzo in Sydney.

NK: Rob, this is a victory for you. Hearing those words, did it feel like victory?

ROB GALLUZZO: To some degree it felt like victory. At some point I think it feels more like we've delivered on an obligation, you know. But yes, it's definitely a fantastic move forward.

NK: Social media is something that consumes so many people around the world. It's an issue that many parents are concerned about. But what specifically was it that inspired you and Wippa to launch this campaign?

RG: Look, we have, we have children. I have three daughters. He's got three children, all sort of within that age group. And, you know, it's just this moment of realization of wondering how this, how did we get here? How do we just randomly get to 13, not governed. Not monitored. And just as we all understood the insidious nature of what was going on in the way we felt, we just thought it was time to take a close look. And for all of us to sort of wake up to it.

NK: What do your children think about it?

RG: Honestly, my children, I've got different ages. But my daughter, that's 13, she's proud of me, but wishes I would do less. [NK: Say less Dad] on TV. Yes, yes, yes. But they're definitely for it. They get it. They just, they're children, you know.

NK: Are they prepared to let go of their devices and the platforms that they like?

RG: You know, you know, they are, you know, it's interesting Wippa, Wippa and I have done a whole lot of meetings and with a bunch of schools, Australia’s leading clinical paediatrician Dr. Billy Garvey has come around to a bunch of schools with us. And you know, we do a little talk and by the end of it we asked the children, put their hands up if social media didn't exist, how many of them would be okay with it. And everybody puts their hands up. So, you know, I think just like every adult would say, yeah, you know, I'd love a break from it, if it didn't, if it wasn't here, we'd be okay. And I'm not talking about the Internet and I'm not talking about mobile phones. I mean, and the social media networks that have got those addictive features built into it, the ones that are designed just to keep our attention.

NK: How is it all actually going to work? Because even if some teens are on side, others may not be certainly, and many of them are much more tech savvy than their parents, even if those parents are politicians with power. So how do you actually stop them from getting onto these platforms?

RG: Well, look, what will end up happening is it will first of all, legislation will be passed and it will be put into Australian law. It's really I would say it's going to be very similar situation to in Australia, you can't buy alcohol under 18. Now of course there are fake IDs and kids who use fake IDs get in some sort of trouble. But they don't go to prison, they don't get fined. What happens is the people who sell them alcohol get fined. So what I'll end up happening is it'll be on the social media networks to abide by the law. They're the ones that will be culpable. But the big headline really will be that parents of 13, 14, 15 year old’s will now be able to say it's not legal. It'll be very difficult to get onto those sites and it'll be quite difficult to do workarounds. Of course some kids will, there's no doubt about it. But broadly, the vast majority will know that it's not legal, parents will know it's legal, and they'll give it parents air cover to be able to say, hey, no, that's not the way it works. There's no doubt that people will use, kids will use VPNs. There's a bunch of ways to work around. But the point really is around that vast majority and the government saying, hey, let's step up, let's say something, let's take a stand and make it law.

NK: Prime Minister Albanese has not ruled out the possibility that social media users might be subjected to biometric scanning their faces at least so that online platforms can try to verify how old the user is. Is that a concern for you that that is a step that might come here?

RG: And that's some of the concern. But I think, I think that's actually less likely in Australia. There's so many other measures that we can take. Australian Government already has so much data on us through Medicare. We know, we have Medicare, we have the whole system, you know, all the way through to all sorts of... And I think COVID did a big job in Australia where, you know, we really are logged in to the government. Government has our details. I trust the Australian Government to have our details. They already do. It's much more hard to trust social media networks to have it. So maybe a better way of saying it is probably just that those networks already have that data. I think it's probably up to Australia to work out how to protect us from the way they use that data.

NK: The Australian Child Rights Task Force and other similar groups have said the Australian Government should impose what they call safety standards on social media platforms instead of outright bans. So what do you say to that argument, Rob, that bans like these, delay the negative impact of social media on young people and the governments would actually be better off addressing those harms for all users?

RG: Look, I think there's probably room for both is what I would say. And remembering that what this campaign was about, the reason why it worked it was this very clear mission to raise the age threshold of social media citizenship from 13 to 16. So understanding that the prefrontal cortex of a 13 year old is so not anywhere near developed and we understand what's going on with the nature of addictive algorithms on those platforms, I would say. There is probably cause for both. I mean, adults will feel it. We know how it feels to be doom scrolling. I think the first job is to say, Hey, let's at least get some air cover for these kids so they have a chance to develop a little more and get a little more ready for what comes at 16. And yeah, I would encourage both of those things. I just think it's very important that we understand that this isn't just a ban. This is really just saying, Hey, if you're 13, 14 or 15 and there is a product that is dangerous, it is actually dangerous for kids. Let's stop that and then let's spend it, let's spend time and money on those 36 months on that time to actually get them ready for the real world, for the social, for what social media is going to bring.

NK: Rob, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

RG: I thank you so much.

CH: Rob Galluzzo campaigned to raise the minimum age for social media citizenship in Australia. We reached him in Sydney.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Amsterdam Football Attack

CH: In a phone call to Israeli President Isaac Herzog. King Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands said, quote, "We failed the Jewish community of the Netherlands during World War Two, and last night we failed again", unquote. He was talking about violent attacks on Israeli football fans in the Dutch capital, Amsterdam.

SOUNDCLIP

Crowds talking, horns honking and sirens.

CH: Authorities say youths on scooters crisscrossed the Dutch capital, targeting Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters who were in the city for the team's match with Dutch champions Ajax. Five people were treated in the hospital and released. More than 60 people have been arrested so far and Police chief Peter Holla confirmed there had been incidents on both sides. Amsterdam's mayor, Femke Halsema, held a press conference and condemned the events in the Dutch capital.

SOUNDCLIP

FEMKE HALSAMA: [English interpreter] Anti-Semitic, hateful rioters, criminals yesterday and yesterday night have attacked Jewish visitors. And I do understand that this reminds us of pogroms. Not only people got injured last night, but our history, the history of our city, our city has been deeply damaged. The Jewish culture has been threatened. And they are all part of this city for centuries. Jewish people at Amsterdam is always enriched our cultures. And yesterday, the crystal night, the night of broken glass was remembered.

CH: That was Amsterdam's mayor, Femke Halsema, speaking to reporters today.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Germany Government Collapse

Guest: Nils Schmid

CH: This week, much of the world has been watching the United States. While across the pond, Germany has watched itself descend into a state of political turmoil. On Wednesday, Chancellor Olaf Scholz fired Finance Minister Christian Lindner, the leader of the Free Democratic Party, which was one of two governing coalition partners until this week. Now, Chancellor Scholz's Social Democratic Party is a minority government backed only by the Greens. An unsettled situation when things in the rest of the world are already extremely unsettled. Nils Schmid is an MP with Olaf Scholz's SPD party. We reached him in Reutlingen.

NK: Nils Schmid, who do you blame for the breakdown of this coalition?

NILS SCHMID: Well, it's definitely Mr. Lindner, the finance minister who was not up to his task because he lacked the necessary responsibility to find the necessary compromise for the budget.

NK: Olaf Scholz certainly knew what he was getting into when he partnered with the FDP and Christian Lindner, who you referred to there. So was it really a surprise that they expected Mr. Scholz and your party to compromise on the economy?

NS: Well, you know, the Liberal Party in Germany has been out of government for many years and it seems that the party leader was not able to get his top right as finance minister and the finance minister needs to serve the interests of the whole of the Coalition and not put his party's interests first. What Christian Lindner unfortunately did. So that's why we could not find the right balance for the budget. And so that's very unfortunate. We had hoped that he would raise to his task, but it was not the case.

NK: The centre right Christian Democratic Union holds a lot of power in this moment. Friedrich Merz, its leader. It wants an immediate vote of confidence. Are you going to give him one?

NS: Not immediately, because there are constitutional terms that are fixed for a snap election that might follow a no confidence vote in Parliament. So we need some more time for the authorities to prepare the elections. And there are also some very important bills that should be passed by this parliament before the end of the term.

NK: This is a time of turmoil. I certainly don't need to tell you, sir around the world, what would you say to people across Germany who are just frustrated that their politicians are in the mess that they're in right now?

NS: Well, I understand that, the responsibility goes to the little party. And that's why the chancellor offered all parties in parliament the opportunity to come together and to fix some of the very urgent issues. And, you know, the date of the elections can be four weeks later or earlier. But what really counts is after the election, to have a very swift formation of government for negotiations for a new coalition not taking too long.

NK: What kind of responsibility do you and your party take?

NS: Well, I think the chancellor to the last, very last day tried hard to find compromises between the three parties. And we need to understand that the Green Party had been out of government for six, 16 years. The Liberal Party for some years. And instead of focusing on the projects and bills that were agreed upon in the Coalition agreement, especially, especially the Liberals, but also sometimes the Green Party put forward their party platform and not the common efforts and common success we had achieved over the last three years. Especially the Liberal Party wanted to play government and opposition at the same time and this cannot work.

NK: We've been covering, certainly and you're well aware of the U.S. election results as leaders around the world try to calibrate how they're going to contend with the second Trump administration once he is inaugurated in January. There are conflicts to be dealt with. Ukraine certainly, and Russia at the very top of that list as well as the Middle East. What is going to happen in terms of Germany's support for Ukraine and your dealings with the United States when there is so much turmoil domestically?

NS: Well, in international affairs, the German government is still full, fully capable of acting. So there's no problem on that. We have a large consensus in Germany across party lines to support Ukraine, militarily and also financially and economically. So, this support will continue in after the next election as well. And so, we need to be prepared for a Trump administration withdrawing funding for military aid for Ukraine. This will be a very tough challenge for Europeans, but also for some other partners, knowing that, for example, Japan, but also South Korea have joined the coalition of those nations supporting Ukraine. But looking at the economic might of the European Union and other major Western allies, we should find ways to continue funding for military support for Ukraine even after an end by a possible Trump administration. The most important thing is that the American defence industry will be allowed to continue to deliver even after a stop of public funding from the U.S. budget. And I think that Trump will not go as far as to ban arms exports from American companies to Ukraine. So it's all about funding. But we need, of course, the manufacturing capacities of U.S. defence companies, especially when it comes to ammunition.

NK: Nils Schmid, thank you for your time.

NS: Yeah, thank you.

CH: That was Nils Schmid, an MP with the ruling SPD party in Germany. We reached him in Reutlingen.

[Music: Lo-fi instrumental]

104 Year Old Vet

CH: This year's Remembrance Day, which falls on Monday, comes 80 years after the end of the Second World War. The turning point in the victory was, of course, D-Day, when the Allies stormed the beaches at Normandy. John Kuharski of Kamloops, B.C., was there at 104 years old. He is one of Canada's oldest living veterans.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN KUHARSKI: Our job was always at night. They would shut down, more or less quiet down for the night. There were no lights. You went by dark. And Sergeant Major used to have a jeep. And we would follow the jeep. And the jeep had a little wee light on underneath it, it would just we could see it from where we were driving behind. And after that well, and when you, you in the tanks were so we went to tanks fuelled them up. And one night, one night I came home, that evening I left there, I threw the camouflage and that off on the ground. And when I come back from the refuelling the tanks, I turned around, threw the camouflage net on top of the fuel tanks and fuel cans and everything, and it was very thick. It was, I got up in the morning and I, well we were sleeping right behind. And I got up in the morning, I looked in the back and here is a little, about a six inch anti-personnel bomb, you call them laying on top of these nets. It didn't go off, if bomb would have went off we would have had our goose cooked because we were sleeping right behind. [JN: Terrifying]. When I seen that on that net, my hair I swear stood on end.

JENIFER NORWELL: Even now hearing about it, I get goosebumps.

JOHN KUHARSKI: You just carry on the way it was. And next night was the same. You fuelled them up. You never thought of that anymore. You keep on going.

JENIFER NORWELL: Then what happens? Because this is a significant battle. But there's a bunch of liberation that needs to happen.

JOHN KUHARSKI: The thing, we didn't have not much trouble. Sure, the people were waving as you’re going through towns and a lot of times we didn't go into town and we went around. But you never had time for that. You just you carried on what did you suppose to. You had your point to get to and you go, you went there and that was it.

JENIFER NORWELL: We're heading towards Remembrance Day. Is there anything that you're going to be thinking about as we head towards this significant day where we take a moment, where we take a pause to look back on the wars that have been and the wars that are.

JOHN KUHARSKI: You know, the way things are going in this world today. I hate to think what's going to happen, and I'm afraid it is starting, starting a little by little in those other countries. And it's going to get worse and it's going to spread. And I hope somebody don't push the button on the wrong bomb because it's going to be too bad for everybody.

CH: 104 year old Second World War veteran John Kuharski of Kamloops, B.C., talking to the CBC's Jenifer Norwell.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 3: 8 Year Old Symphony, Stuffed Animal Wall, Ferry Correction, Possibly Third Largest Turnip, Monkeys Loose

8 Year Old Symphony

CH: According to Malcolm Gladwell, it takes 10 thousand hours of practice to become an expert at something, but not if you're Sammy Wong. Then it takes somewhere around an hour a day for like two years. Sammy has been playing the violin since he was five years old. He's eight now, and tomorrow he'll be performing as a soloist with the Kitchener-Waterloo Symphony, Prodigio del Violino: An Evening with Sammy Wong will feature the music of Mozart and Vivaldi. The CBC caught up with Sammy as he was rehearsing with the symphony.

SOUNDCLIP

SAM WONG: [Violin in background] My name is Sam Wong. I'm going to be rehearsing the Mozart Concert Concerto in D Major.

JOE PAVIA: And why do you like to play the violin?

SAM WONG: Because I like to play violin.

JOE PAVIA: What is it about Mozart that you like?

SAM WONG: I like the music.

JOE PAVIA: I was wondering, do you have your violin now? Do you think you could play something for me?

SAM WONG: Sure. [Sam playing violin].

CH: Man of few words. Eight year old violin prodigy Sam Wong, speaking with the CBC's Joe Pavia in Waterloo.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Stuffed Animal Wall

Guest: Connor Nijsse

CH: When you start doing renovations, you've got to expect the unexpected. You just know you're going to find something you weren't anticipating, mould, knob and tube wiring, termite damage, even the dreaded asbestos. Connor Nijsse and his wife know the feeling. They've been working on their house all year. And lately they've been focussed on the garage where they found something that is both less scary and more weird than asbestos. We reached Mr. Nijsse in Victoria, B.C.

NK: Connor, you're ripping out this drywall in your garage. That's a project to say the least. And then you get a bit of a surprise. What was there?

CONNOR NIJSSE: Yeah. So, yeah, I've been working for the last year or so renovating the garage. And as I opened up, I've actually done almost the entire garage this is my last three pieces of drywall. As I opened them up, I got a surprise of some, well, many eyes staring me back from various stuffed animals.

NK: I mean, are you hearing the psycho music in that moment? Because as soon as I heard that, that's what I heard.

CN: It's no. No, you know what my head never went there, it was just sheer disbelief. I couldn't believe that this is something that I'm running into or that I found? Yeah.

NK: And are they tattered? Are they in good condition? How were they stored? Are they in a bin, a bag?

CN: They're in a, well, they were behind some vapour barrier and shoved in the walls between like plywood and drywall. So actually, pretty remarkably well preserved. They're obviously kind of dirty, but I think some of them even might just be from like they're, you know, they're held by kids prior and stuff. Yeah, I think they're actually in really good condition. We only had a couple that were like really beyond repair.

NK: You took some pictures. Smart move in those, in between the shock and then you sent them to your wife. What did she say?

CN: Yeah, I sent it to my wife, Brianne [inaudible] and we, she couldn't believe it. She had no idea what was going on. And actually I was working by myself at the time. I opened up one section. I figured, all right, like, that's kind of funny, take some photos, send them off, move on. Then she came home and we started kind of working our way along and figured, alright we'll pull off another piece of drywall, and that's when the video kind of starts is coming off like more pieces of drywall and finding, finding five studs worth that were just completely stuffed full of stuffed animals.

NK: And the video you're talking about is the social media video you put up to document what was happening. How many in all? How many stuffed animals were it?

CN: Yeah, we're at 115 stuffed animals.

NK: So the second time, did the psycho music start playing in your mind? [laughter] I love stuffed animals, but there can be a creepy factor when they're coming out of a wall by the dozens.

CN: You know, I get it. I just a lot of people on social media went that direction. They went to like true crime documentaries, serial killers [NK: Sure], all kinds of options. And honestly, my head didn't go there. It was just sheer disbelief. When something like that happens, you just can't wrap your head around it. A lot of giggling and not really sure what to really think of it, but like never anything sinister from the start until people started sending us all this information and saying like, like they're, you know, they should be getting them checked out or like, this could have been something else.

NK: So, you're... You know, every noise is not frightening you now. You're still cool.

CN: No. I've been in this garage for a year now, and I couldn't even hear them screaming behind the walls. So it wasn't that bad at all.

NK: You're safe. That's really funny. That's really funny, Connor. But do you know who owned this house before? I mean, have you, do you have any leads on why they might be in there?

CN: We did at one point meet the family that owned the house before us like a year ago when we were purchasing. We're not really in contact with them anymore, but we know that they, I think they had three kids that grew up in the property. We think they're just kind of people, you know, they grow up, they grow old, the stuffed animals get left behind. And a lot of the renovations we're running into are very haphazardly done. So, it's not a surprise that they kind of reach towards the end. And then there's, you know, walls of this, ah whatever we can shove into the walls. And for some people, it's, you know, newspaper clippings and, you know, old stuff that they find, couch cushions I've seen there before, but never stuffed animals.

NK: So you just give it away. Or I guess maybe it was supposed to be a storage facility and then who knows?

CN: Yeah, I think it was just, I think they were probably destined for the garbage. And then these just ended up, this seemed like a better place to stick them at the time.

NK: Some of the other messages you've been getting apart from "be afraid, very afraid". And, you know, is this a horror movie? People recognize their own childhoods in what you posted, right.

CN: It's crazy what we're getting. We're getting, I get probably 20, 30 messages a day from people [NK: Still?] With stories about their childhood or like the nostalgia factor. But our like, our biggest story that, it was a woman in Guelph and she immediately recognized this like stuffed duck that was in the wall. Before we even posted about like showing them off, she messaged us immediately. And we ended up shipping her two of these stuffed ducks we found all the way from B.C. to Guelph to... And she did like a reveal video of her opening them up and her giving them to her kids and stuff, it's all very cute.

NK: That's beautiful. So you're still responding. I mean, you have other things to do, renovations to continue with. How much are you going to keep...

CN: I have a real job. [NK: Yeah] Yeah. I have a real job. My wife's got a real job. There's lots going on. And I probably two, three hours a night of just trying to respond to things.

NK: How long do you think you can keep it up?

CN: I'm running out of steam, honestly. So we messaged a bunch of people like this weekend, we're going to sit down, we're gonna go through as many as we can, message as many people as we can, try to sell or [inaudible] or donate as many as we can and see how much it tapers off. The biggest thing we've done is we've sent some videos to people like as we've been sending them. We're getting a lot of repeat calls for certain stuffed animals. So I maybe in the next week we're going to post like a follow up of like what is left. Out of the 115 we found is probably about 25 or so that are super popular and people are really asking about and then we'll see what happens once things taper off after that.

NK: You're going to keep 1 or 2 for yourselves. No, to remember, this?

CN: I plan on sticking one back in the wall.

NK: [laughter] I was going to ask if you were going to put anything behind the wall.

CN: I'm going to stick one behind the wall, with like a couple of these articles, I think printed off just for the next person to run into.

NK: No, don't give them any explanation. That's the fun.

CN: And then there's a couple that my wife decided like they're going to live in our house. Evidently.

NK: Okay, which ones?

CN: There's a really, like the staple of the whole thing was the just big brown bear that was in there. That's a big one that's going to stay with us. It's in remarkably great condition. It's a big like kind of Ted looking teddy bear. So, that one's staying with us and then I'm not sure what else we'll see when, what happens when this all tapers down.

NK: Connor, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

CN: That was great talking with you.

CH: Connor Nijsse found dozens of stuffed animals behind the drywall in his garage. We reached him in Victoria, B.C.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Ferry Correction

CH: If you were listening to last night's program, you might remember that I let you in on a secret, which was... What was I saying? Oh, yeah that at some point in the program, my legendary focus begins to slip and that I get it back by looking at posters with inspirational sayings about how it's "the journey and not the destination", which I said Lindsey Gale and Mason Devoe do not believe because, as you might remember, the Newfoundland couple were very destination focussed during a recent seven hour ferry ride because Ms. Gale had gone into labour while on board. It's a great story, but the fact that I'm surrounded by posters of kittens and eagles and not Maps of Canada became clear when I mentioned the destination of that ferry, prompting a number of emails and phone calls, including this one from Deb Roseborough in London, Ontario.

SOUNDCLIP

DEB ROSEBOROUGH: [Voicemail tone] I was listening to the lead up to your show tonight and heard about a couple who were on a seven hour ferry ride to New Brunswick when their baby decided to come early. I wondered where on earth that ferry would be coming from and where it would be docking in New Brunswick. When the interview played a while later, I was quite shocked to learn that North Sydney, where the ferry docked after leaving Newfoundland, has been relocated from its normal location in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, to some place in New Brunswick. Anyway, I have a map of Nova Scotia you can borrow if you would like to find out where North Sydney really is. Love your show.

CH: Thanks, Deb and others. You're right. North Sydney is, of course, in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia and not New Brunswick. I apologize. Please send the map to, As It Happens, Box 500, Station A, Toronto, New Brunswick M5W 1E6. Sorry, sorry. I mean. Toronto, Ontario.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Possibly Third Largest Turnip

CH: You plant it, you water it, you tend to it, you root for it and it roots for you. And then this.

SOUNDCLIP

Wind and exclamations.

CH: The immediately recognizable sound of the possibly third largest turnip in the world being pulled from the ground in Labrador City, Newfoundland and Labrador. It was grown by Adena and Jerry Bellows, who had no idea their turnip was going to get so big. Just a couple of pounds shy of the 39 pounder that holds the world record. Now, some may scoff at the accomplishment of cultivating a possibly third largest vegetable but let me remind you that growing anything in Labrador City with its subarctic climate is full of challenges. So possibly third largest is definitely first excellent-est in our books. Here is Adena Bellows speaking with the CBC's Darryl Dinn, just before taste testing the impressive Brassica.

SOUNDCLIP

ADENA BELLOWS: We grew this ginormous turnip this summer up to the Community Gardens in Labrador West. I never imagined it was going to turn out to be the size that it is. They're only normally like the size of a softball, maybe a little bigger. But this one turned into be 36.5 pound. All my vegetables were super huge. My cabbages were huge. Turnips were huge. The only thing I kept feeding in my garden and if I wasn't there watering my husband was there watering, so had it had water. Except for evacuation was the only time it never got watered. I use seaweed, fish emulsion, chicken manure, leaves, compost, coffee grounds, you name it. I puts it in there.

DARRYL DINN: You pulled this a couple of weeks ago. You're going to be cutting it today. [AB: Yes]. Any theories to what it's going to be like or what it's going to taste like or...

ADENA BELLOWS: Well, I had eight turnip in total put in to the garden. All the rest of them were excellent. They were nice. They were firm. No rot, no root maggot. So I'm really hoping that this one is going to be the exact same. I'm going to say she's going to be mint. [DD: Mint?] Mint. [laughter]

DARRYL DINN: Perfect. Are you ready to hop in? [AB: Yes, I am]. Okay.

[Sounds of them cutting into the turnip]

ADENA BELLOWS: Oh my gosh. What a beauty. Oh my goodness. Look at that. No way. That is amazing. Holy. Few feeds off that turnip mash now and a couple of [inaudible] dinners. My gosh. How exciting.

DARRYL DINN: Do you want to taste a little bit now, or have you ever eaten it raw?

ADENA BELLOWS: I have.

JERRY BELLOWS: Excellent raw.

ADENA BELLOWS: Raw turnip is delicious. [sounds of them eating] I don't need the turnip. My gosh it's so good, really good.

CH: Before now I have never wanted to taste a turnip and I say that as someone who has tasted many turnips. This is a strange feeling. That was Adena and Jerry Bellows speaking with Labrador Morning from Labrador City. The Bellows' enormous turnip and its uncertain ranking among the world's largest reminded us of another unearthed gem. When we first talked to Colin Craig-Brown of Hamilton, New Zealand he had grown what seemed to be possibly the first largest potato ever at nearly eight kilos. He was just waiting on confirmation from Guinness World Records. From 2021 here's part of Mr. Craig-Brown's conversation with our former host, Carol Off.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Colin, how is Doug doing?

COLIN CRAIG-BROWN: He's doing fine. He's... he's in the freezer.

CO: [chuckling] He's in the freezer?! Oh my gosh!

CCB: Yes, he's in the freezer.

CO: OK.

CCB: Because when we dug him up, he needed some extra help from the garden fork. And he became impaled on the garden fork.

CO: Right.

CCB: So he's suffered the ravages of global warming and mould set in. So, used a little bit of bleach and washed him down and cleaned him up and popped him in the fridge. But he... he kept getting a bit smelly. So thought in order to save him so that the Guinness people have got something to look at, wrap him up, pop him in the freezer.

CO: Right.

CCB: But I pull him out every now and then when people want to look at him.

CO: [laughing] OK, so can you just take us back to the discovery of Doug in your garden? I mean, you weren't even growing potatoes this year, were you?

CCB: No, no, no, no, no, no. We're just coming out of winter. My wife and I decided, right, if we're going to get anything ready for spring, we might as well just prepare a patch in the garden. And so we chose a spot that was probably the... the worst, weediest part in the garden. And hey, presto, there was this whiteness and the other thing, and we said, what's that?! And we both looked at it, oh, I dunno. So I had a bit of a wiggle, and it wouldn't move. Both of us latched on to it, and it wouldn't move. So I got the garden fork and slipped it in underneath, thinking I was underneath it to lift it out. And yeah, I'd driven it right through the middle of him. And dragged him out of the ground. And we thought, is that a kumara, a sweet potato? Because I grew some sweet potatoes there last season. And I was like, no, it's not one of those. And gave it a scratch and a taste, gave it the taste test, and hey, presto! If it tastes like a spud, it must be a spud. [CO chuckles] And, yeah. So we just hosed him down and, yeah, looked at him in absolute wonderment.

CO: But you were… you were dressing him up at some point, right? Putting hats on him and stuff?

CCB: Oh yeah, we had a hat on him because we took him out, you know, to give him a bit of sunshine one day. Some people reckon he looks like a baby with his hat on, but I just think he looks like a potato with a hat sitting on top of him. [chuckling]

CO: He looks like Doug. Doug the spud.

CCB: Yeah, Doug. Yeah, dug him up. [CO chuckles] That's how he got his name.

CH: From our archives. Colin Craig-Brown talking to our former host Carol Off about his huge potato, Doug. Which later turned out to be not a potato. Genetic testing revealed it to be a tuber from a gourd.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Monkeys Loose

Guest: David Paul Murray

CH: Something strange is happening in Yemassee, South Carolina right now. More than 40 rhesus macaque monkeys are on the loose in the town of a thousand people. They've been on the loose since Wednesday when residents were warned that they'd escaped from the nearby Alpha Genesis Research Center. Officials are asking people to keep their doors and windows closed and to generally avoid any strange monkeys. On their Facebook page local police said the escapees are young females weighing 6 or 7 pounds. The police are using traps and thermal imaging cameras to try to capture them. And a lot of the comments on that post are very much cheering on the fugitives. David Paul Murray is a councilman in Yemassee. He also lives near the research facility. We reached him at work.

NK: David, when most of us hear some of those details as we just did, it's surprising, to say the least. But my call to you is not the first one you've been getting about these monkeys, is it?

DAVID PAUL MURRAY: No. No, definitely not. We've been quite, getting quite a few calls nationally and internationally.

NK: Does that surprise you?

DPM: Very much so. Very much so. [NK: Why?] We, well, because this believe it or not, it's not actually an unusual occurrence for us to experience these escaped monkeys. It definitely isn't the first time.

NK: What is happening there that they have the ability to, what's happening at that facility that the monkeys can get out?

DPM: Yeah, well, I mean, when you're dealing with up to seven thousand monkeys... And then you've got human error. And sometimes people just forget to lock doors and shut gates or whatnot. And sometimes that's just what happens. 40 monkeys out of seven thousand is not too bad, I guess.

NK: How many times has this happened now?

DPM: I've lived in this area since 1996, and I don't know, it's happened often enough to where I remember actually seeing monkeys on my own property back in the early 2000. So it's happened off and on throughout the years.

NK: And how did that situation get resolved?

DPM: They usually come and capture it and take it back to the facility. Just, you give them a call. And I mean everybody, everybody local, within the local area knows them and. [NK: Yeah]. And we just give them a call and say hey, there's a monkey on my property and obviously it's theirs because nobody else around here has monkeys.

NK: Yeah. What is the... Well, unless they're, unless they're hanging out with the ones who escaped and don't want to give them back.

DPM: Yeah, exactly. There you go.

NK: What's the status of the latest search?

DPM: The latest the latest update I've had is they haven't been able to capture any of the 43 that have gotten out. They've gotten, they've gotten eyes on a few of them that are staying near the facility. But we've got reports coming out now that they've been seen up to five miles away already.

NK: They're moving fast. They you know, as you know, there are many, many people, not just in your town, but across the country and elsewhere, who have a lot of deep concerns about these kinds of facilities. Many people are cheering on the monkeys. What do you say to those who are concerned that a centre like Alpha Genesis exists?

DPM: Well, I mean, you've got varying degrees of opinions about what these facilities do and what the monkeys are used for. And I mean, you've got varying opinions on that. A lot of people that obviously are right in league there with PETA, who don't want any animals used for any kind of experimentation whatsoever. And then you've got people as long as they're treated ethically and they're not tortured and things like that, you know, it's not a big deal. But I don't think any of us are for torturing animals. And, but I don't, that's not what this facility, facility does. And they have over seven thousand primates and they are very well taken care of, very well run facility, regardless of what's happening currently. 40 Monkeys is not a big deal when it comes to a facility that houses over 70 thousand. I mean seven thousand, sorry.

NK: Yeah, Alpha Genesis describes itself as a primate research, as primate research specialists, just to let our listeners know. Some of the information that's out there, you and others have pointed to and are concerned that there's a lot of misinformation online about just what unfolded. What do you want to clear up?

DPM: Well, I mean, I can just go by what I've been told as a, by the company, by the, by employees that it really just came down to an employee error, that I mean, you've got multiple, multiple security doors for all the, these cages that they keep the creatures in because monkeys live in family groups, they're pretty large enclosures. I'm not sure 100 per cent the size, but I drive by it every day from work so I can clearly see all the monkeys. I mean, you've got these videos out there claiming that there's chimpanzees loose or that there's orangutans loose. And it's like, y'all, it's a small little six to eight pound monkey. [NK: Right]. I mean, it's more or less a funny looking raccoon running around in the woods. It's really, really nothing to be worried about. I mean, we've got, as most of your listeners might not know, in South Carolina, we've got multiple larger creatures in this area that could actually kill you. And we've got multiple species of poisonous snakes. So a small little six to eight pound monkey running around is, I mean, it's just a fancy squirrel.

NK: Obviously, we started out joking because it is such a, for most people, an extraordinary thing that dozens of monkeys are on the loose in a small community, as it's happened multiple times in Yemassee and you're a council member, as we've said. Are there going to be I mean, are there people in town who are not pleased that this keeps happening and are starting to ask some questions about what can be done?

DPM: I mean, I personally haven't heard many, many, if any complaints as far as what can be done. Most people in town either know somebody or they themselves work at the facility. They're one of the, one of the town's largest employers. So we, and a lot of people are pretty familiar with the place. And really, I mean, I've talked to probably over a dozen, dozen and a half citizens lately, and they're just, is not a real, not a big deal to many of us.

NK: Has Alpha Genesis assured you in any way that they're going to beef up security or talk to their staff again?

DPM: I'm sure that they will make some corrective measures as far as making sure that, that staff is closing doors and gates correctly. It just comes down to someone making an error and monkey's escaping and who knows somebody's not paying attention. And I've heard rumours that someone left gates open. But beyond that is just whatever, whatever we're being told by Alpha Genesis and employees, but nothing I can verify for sure.

NK: David, thank you.

DPM: Yeah, of course.

CH: David Paul Murray is a councilman in Yemassee, South Carolina. We put in a call to Alpha Genesis Research Center for a statement, but we have not heard back.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For November 08, 2024

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