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The AIH Transcript for November 14, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Laying out the welcome Matt. Pretty much all of Donald Trump's picks for his imminent administration are controversial. But a former Republican prosecutor says Matt Gaetz for attorney general goes beyond bad to absurd.

CH: Taking pains. The settlement was six years in the making, and now three Iraqi men who endured torture at the hands of U.S. government contractors have been awarded 42 million dollars.

NK: Deep, dark secrets. Ottawa says a decades old list of potential war criminals who came to Canada is still too hot to release. But the founder of the Canadian Anti-Hate Network says it is crucial to know about Canada's Nazi secrets.

CH: Flight then fight. An Idaho woman tells us she had to flee the state to get a lifesaving abortion, a story she told on the stand this week in the fight against Idaho's strict abortion ban.

NK: Dancing against the issue. The debate over a controversial New Zealand treaty bill got particularly heated today, with members of the public joining in a Haka and a Maori MP ripping that bill in half.

CH: And founders keepers. A Scottish town council is shaking its head after learning a marble head that cost five pounds and was being used as a doorstop in a shed is actually a bust of their founder that's worth millions. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that proves it pays to keep a cool head.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Matt Gaetz Appointment, Deschênes Report Spiked, World's Largest Coral, Doorstop Sculpture Sale

Matt Gaetz Appointment

Guest: Ron Filipkowski

CH: "The hammer of justice is coming". That's how Elon Musk described Donald Trump's appointment of Matt Gaetz as attorney general. Part of an ongoing wave of divisive appointments which today included Mr. Trump nominating Robert F. Kennedy Jr., an outspoken anti-vaxxer who wants fluoride removed from all water systems in the U.S. as health secretary. But back to Matt Gaetz, an appointment that is also controversial, not least because the House Ethics Committee is in the final stages of its investigation into the Florida congressman and allegations that he had a sexual relationship with a 17 year old girl. But now that Mr. Gaetz has resigned from Congress, it's unknown whether the findings of that investigation will be released. That probe followed an investigation into child sex trafficking by the Department of Justice, the same department, Mr. Gaetz, is now set to lead. No charges were laid and he has denied all wrongdoing. But the news of his appointment still caught D.C. politicians off guard. Here's how Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski described the nomination.

SOUNDCLIP

LISA MURKOWSKI: I don't think it's a serious nomination for the attorney general. We need to have a serious attorney general. And I'm looking forward to the opportunity to consider somebody that is serious. This one, this one was not on my bingo card.

CH: Ron Filipkowski is a former Republican federal and state prosecutor who served on the Florida Judicial Nominating Commission for more than a decade. We reached him in Portland, Maine, earlier today.

NK: Ron, did you see this appointment coming?

RON FILIPKOWSKI: No. [chuckles] Nobody saw this coming. Matt Gaetz's name was not being thrown around at all by anybody except for maybe Matt Gaetz. So. So, yeah, I think I know the criteria that Trump had in mind and what he was looking for, and he certainly fits the criteria.

NK: Well, let's talk about that a little bit. He was a commercial litigation lawyer. He has no experience working for the Justice Department. He certainly doesn't have a resume like predecessors in that post. Why do you think he is being appointed to this post?

RF: Well, and it's not only that. I mean, the Department of Justice is a sprawling federal agency that oversees 90 separate United States attorneys’ offices, tens of thousands of employees, federal law enforcement agencies, U.S. Marshals, ATF, FBI. And he has no experience whatsoever as an administrator. But I think when you look at the criteria of what is Trump looking for, he's looking for someone who is going to clean out federal law enforcement agencies by firing a lot of career civil servants. I think he wants to use it to go after his political enemies. Well, just take one example. Trump wanted Bill Barr to seize voting machines in Pennsylvania after the 2020 election, and Barr refused. That would be something that Matt Gaetz would not refuse. So, I mean, there's a whole host of things. They're talking about recalling General Mark Milley to active duty and court martialling him and prosecuting him for treason. They're talking about prosecuting Jack Smith and his staff, Letitia James. So, you know, if you're looking for a traditional prosecutor who's someone like a Merrick Garland or somebody like that who has a long, well-established blue chip resume, none of those lawyers are going to do any of the crazy things that Trump wants an attorney general to do. So Trump has finally found someone who is crazy enough to do those things.

NK: Well, he's mused about dismantling the FBI. The Wires are reporting as well, Gaetz has. Do you think this is a serious appointment or do you think something else is at play? We you know, our listeners have heard about the allegations of sexual misconduct he's been facing, he denies them. The Ethics Committee report that was due to come out. Do you think something else is at play here and that he actually has, Trump does, a different nominee in mind?

RF: No, I don't. I don't think he has a different nominee in mind. I don't think that this is a situation where he's playing a game here. No, I think Gaetz resigning before the ethics report came out was clearly done for that reason to try and prevent it from coming out. But I think it's going to be leaked anyway because there's so many staffers that have access to that report, including Democratic staffers.

NK: If it does get out, what would that change?

RF: Well, it depends what's in it. But, you know, according to the attorney for the girl, the 17 year old girl who was apparently flown to a drug fuelled escapade out of the country, you know, the attorney for the girl is also calling for the report to be released.

NK: We heard from Senator Murkowski. You know, others have spoken out saying they don't believe that the confirmation will actually happen. Former Speaker Kevin McCarthy telling Bloomberg Television he doesn't think Gaetz will be confirmed, saying, quote, Everybody knows that, unquote. Others, though, other Republicans, Congressman Troy Nehls, being one of them, is urging Republicans to follow the president elect no matter what. Let's play for our listeners a bit of what he said yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

TROY NEHLS: There's no question he's a leader of our party. So now he's got a mission statement, his mission and his goals and objectives, whatever that is. We need to embrace it, all of it. Every single word. If Donald Trump says jump three feet high and scratch your head, we all jump three feet high and scratch our heads. That's it.

NK: Hard not to think of checks and balances and three levels of government. But at the end of the day, how do you see this playing out?

RF: Well, you know, Troy Nehls speaks for Troy Nehls. He doesn't really have any other constituency other than himself. But here's what I think. If the vote was held tomorrow or next week, Gaetz would not make it. But what they know is that they're going to orchestrate this MAGA pressure and tremendous pressure campaign on these handful of senators that don't like Gaetz, Republican senators. And the question is, are they going to crack? Are they going to cave to that pressure? That's the big question.

NK: Do you think they'll speak out?

RF: I mean, here's the people I look at. I look at the people who are up for election in 2026, in swing states like Susan Collins in Maine. It has a Democratic governor. It's a Democratic state. Susan Collins has to run for re-election in two years in Maine. If she votes for Matt Gaetz, that's not going to play in Maine. I'm in Maine, I can tell you. Matt Gaetz. Probably has a 10 per cent approval rating in Maine. So that's going to cause her problems. Thom Tillis, who's probably in for a tough re-election battle against the governor there, Roy Cooper, in 2026. I don't think he wants to vote for Matt Gaetz. And those who don't like, they've sparred with each other in the past. So I look at people like that and at Lisa Murkowski, who's very independent because it only takes a couple senators to vote against him. And he's not, they only have a three seat majority.

NK: So whether it's Gaetz or someone else who is confirmed in the end, what do you see when you look ahead to the next four years in terms of the Justice Department?

RF: I think it's going to be bad because you know, we're not just talking about the attorney general. We're talking about the 90 U.S. Attorneys that Trump will also be appointing in the various states that will be in charge of prosecutions there. I think that what we are going to see is a tremendous amount of conflict between the Justice Department and local district attorneys, particularly Democrats. You know, you're talking about people in like Pennsylvania and New York who want to fight the Trump administration on various things, whether it's deporting migrants or seizing university endowments, all of these various things that Trump has talked about doing, rounding up homeless people. So I'm looking at what the DOJ can do all around the country.

NK: Ron, I appreciate your time. Thanks for this.

RF: Sure. You got it.

CH: Ron Filipkowski is a former federal and state prosecutor from Florida and a former Republican. He's now the editor in chief of the news site MeidasTouch.com. He's in Portland, Maine.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Deschênes Report Spiked

Guest: Bernie Farber

CH: A decades old report about war criminals who came to Canada is still too hot for Canadians to see. In 1986, the Deschênes Commission on War Criminals in Canada completed a report that contained the names of roughly 900 possible war criminals who'd come to Canada after the Second World War. But that list was kept tightly under wraps. And ever since, historians and Jewish-Canadian groups have been pushing for its release. That push was renewed last year after shamefaced Canadian officials acknowledged that a man who had served in the Waffen-SS Galicia division had been honoured in the House of Commons. Nevertheless, Library and Archives Canada has confirmed that even now it will not be releasing that section of the Deschênes report. Bernie Farber is the founding chair of the Canadian Anti-Hate Network. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Bernie Farber, what's your response to that decision to not release this report even 38 years later?

BERNIE FARBER: You know, I'm dumbfounded and horrified all at the same time. This report would be the last, really the last form of justice left for those that were so brutally murdered. Six million Jewish men, women and children, another six million non-Jews by the Nazis, with a very likelihood that the SS Galicia unit, this unit that compromised much of the, much of these lists. Took part and not only took part but took part in the murders of my own family. My late father, Max, was the sole Jewish survivor of a small village in Poland. Seven brothers and sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles. I have no paternal family with the exception of my late father. So really, while many of the Holocaust survivors are no longer with us, the same can be said for these alleged murderers. They're no longer with us either. But, you know, we need to know what happened. It's time. It's really time.

NK: We requested a statement from Library and Archives Canada. They sent us that statement saying they're keeping these names under wraps, quote, for the reason of risk of harm to international relations, unquote. What does that say to you?

BF: It's actually laughable. Given the fact that various other countries, allied countries after the war did prosecute Nazi war criminals, including those from the Galicia division and others. The United States deported dozens and dozens of Nazi war criminals. It didn't harm any relations internationally that I have seen over the past number of years. So that excuse, and let me reiterate it, that excuse is feeble. And, you know, Canadians should be wary of it. We deserve to know what happened. We deserve to correct the record. It's time.

NK: Our listeners may remember the controversy when a former Waffen-SS soldier was honoured in Parliament during a visit from Ukraine's president and Russian President Vladimir Putin used that appearance and the controversy to attack both Canada and Ukraine in interviews. What would you say to those who are concerned that publishing these names right now might open the door to Russian disinformation campaigns?

BF: I don't think that we should be worrying about Russian disinformation campaigns in a way. We should be worrying about Canadian disinformation campaigns. This is really time that the truth be told. And sometimes truth is more important than anything else, especially when we're talking about the murder of thousands of individuals. And the fact that Canada may have been complicit in giving them sanctuary. That to me, I think, trumps everything else. I think we would have to deal with any contingencies and any fallout. But really, it's time.

NK: Last year, the Governor General's office expressed, quote, "deep regret" over a decision back in 1987 to give the Order of Canada to a former University of Alberta Chancellor Peter Severin, who had served in this same division that we've been talking about. If these names, this section of the report were released, let's say tomorrow, what could be done with that information? What do you see happening?

BF: Really, I mean, here's the irony of it all. Nothing could really be done unless some of them are still alive. And even then, the chances are nil to nil. It just exposes them... I remember when, I was working on this since 1985, and I remember asking my late father, a Holocaust survivor, about this, and he looked me in the eye and he said, you know, son, we're never going to get any real justice here. But if they are exposed, if their family and their neighbours and their friends know what it is that they did. That's justice enough for me.

NK: Tell our listeners a little bit for those who may not know how many people on this list likely came into this country.

BF: Well they, after the war, they gave themselves up actually to British forces. It's somewhat questionable the manner in which the British forces actually investigated who they were, what they were. They made a deal that the group, this SS Galicia division would come into Canada. They claimed that they were not Nazis, although the Nuremberg trials, which were just recently held at that time and had all the information at their behest, did say that they participated, that the units participated in Nazi war crimes. And so they came in here fancy free, and it took years to figure out who they were and what they did.

NK: Catherine Chatterley, who founded the Canadian Institute for the Study of Antisemitism has said, quote, There must be some really big bombshells in the report given this decision to continue to suppress the truth, unquote. If and when the Deschênes report is released, what do you think we might find out?

BF: Well, we found out some names in the third part of the report, which was released. And, you know, we did discover, as you said earlier, that it was an official with University of Alberta. And there probably will be others named. And so it should be. They should not have been allowed to get away with this unthinkingly. Our government at the time should have done something. But more importantly, our government during the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s, '80s and '90s to this very day, our government has a responsibility. And let's make sure that this government lives up to that responsibility.

NK: And what would you say to people who perhaps they know a little bit about their family history, they're concerned that a list like this might come out. And even though they're, you know, they're descendants, that they had no hand in what happened. They're frightened by being connected to this.

BF: I would say that I am so sorry for what they are going through and the feelings that they may have. But there are as I said, there have been many that have been exposed. Even here in Canada, there have been some very important people that have been exposed. Nothing has happened. There has been nothing that has happened. And I think you can go with history about nothing happening. I only hope that we don't go with history in relation to the release of that means, let us hope that something does happen.

NK: Bernie Farber, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

BF: Thank you very much.

CH: Bernie Farber is the founding chair of the Canadian Anti-Hate Network. We reached him in Toronto. We also asked for comment from the Federal Heritage Minister. A spokesperson there sent a statement saying, quote, While we value the principle of transparency, it is imperative to release documents in a responsible manner that protects and preserves individual, national and international security, unquote.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

World's Largest Coral

CH: Manu San Félix has made an enormous discovery. The veteran biologist and National Geographic cinematographer has found a single coral that is 34 metres wide, 32 metres long and 5.5 metres high, which makes it the largest coral ever recorded. If you're trying to picture it, one of Mr. San Félix's colleagues, says it's the size of a blue whale only quote made of nearly 1 billion little polyps pulsing with life and colour, unquote. He made the discovery during a boat trip through the Solomon Islands. The driver spotted a shipwreck. Manu San Félix wanted to take a look and he wasted no time.

SOUNDCLIP

MANU SAN FÉLIX: So then I jump in the water. Freediving and I was is so lucky that I looked down and I saw that it was a single coral head. But huge. And I said, wow, this is something very special. So I free dive down and I was well, with his smile blown away because I for me, it's 44 years, I've been on thousands of dives and I have never seen something similar. So I came up from the first free dive excited, shouting, Come here, get the position and call to my dive buddy. That is my son.

TIM FRANKS: And at what point did you begin to actually take measurements and then think to yourself or maybe you just knew. This is actually probably going to be the biggest coral ever discovered.

MANU SAN FÉLIX: Well, in a [inaudible]. So I didn't want to go ahead with that dream, but I came back to [inaudible] excited, tell to the science team. I showed them the photos and then everybody became also excited. And I didn't say nothing about the length. I preferred to be calm.

TIM FRANKS: Well, a calm but excited. And I can still hear your voice. Manu, tell me what it looks like. Tell our listeners what it looks like.

MANU SAN FÉLIX: I have to say that is something beautiful. And I felt, immediately I was thinking, Wow, this is here for hundreds of years. So when you look to [inaudible] or a cathedral with hundreds of years, then you feel a respect for me, that's amazing. Also, because it's nice to come back with a positive and nice message, especially in this moment, that most of the message that we get from nature are terrible. No.

CH: That was National Geographic biologist and cinematographer Manu San Félix speaking to Tim Franks of the BBC World Service.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Doorstop Sculpture Sale

Guest: Maxine Smith

CH: Sometimes you've got to, let me just. Ouch! Sorry. Oh man. Excuse me, I just stubbed my toe on the bronze replica of Reading Town Hall that we use to keep the studio door open. Ah, that hurt. Okay. Sorry. What I was going to say is sometimes you've got to use whatever you have handy to prop the door open. Any old replica of a Reading landmark will do or heavy book. Or if you happen to have one lying around, a 300 year old marble bust. That's what Invergordon town council was using after purchasing a bust of the town's rumoured founder, Sir John Gordon, for just five pounds in 1930. But now an overseas buyer has offered to purchase that same sculpture for a lot more than five pounds. Maxine Smith is a councillor in Invergordon, Scotland.

NK: Counsellor, I'm looking at an image of the sculpture right now, this bust. Can you describe for our listeners what it looks like?

MAXINE SMITH: Yes, it's marble. And obviously everybody knows what a bust looks like is of a gentleman and probably in 30s and quite old fashioned because it was in the 1700s and it's probably about 18 inches in height by about 12 inches wide.

NK: It looks to be in pretty great condition given what it's been through.

MS: Absolutely. It's amazing. It's been through a fire too. [NK: A fire?] Yes. And because the Gordon's had it, it [inaudible] to when they lived in the castle. And way back in the 1800s, there was a fire and it burned down and it managed to survive that.

NK: Well, as our listeners heard, this is a bust of Sir John Gordon, who you mentioned there. What more can you tell us about him? I mean, how would he have had this bust made by this sculptor, very well-known at the time, described as the greatest sculptor of the early 18th century, Edmé Bouchardon.

MS: Yes. So, he, Sir John Gordon obviously had a lot of money in those days, as they did. And he was touring on the continent and I think he was actually living in Rome at the time. He must have met Edmé Bouchardon maybe in Rome or maybe in Paris, I'm not sure. But Edmé did a sculpture of Sir John Gordon. And then obviously when John came back home he brought the bust with him, and that was in the late 1700s and I think Edmé Bouchardon, didn't really become famous until and in the 1800s.

NK: Well, so then it comes into possession eventually of Invergordon. But how does it end up being used as a doorstop for a shed in an industrial area? Because even if you don't know Edmé Bouchardon and even if you're not into busts. I mean, I think just looking at it, you think this is a little bit fancy.

MS: I know. Well, what happened was when there was a fire in the castle, it then obviously got distributed somehow to another family. And the bust was in a place called [inaudible]'s House, which itself is a big mansion house. It's now flats. But at the time, I think the people at [inaudible] has gone bankrupt. So everything was being sold. And so the bust was also auctioned. And now the then committee council, like a parish council, like volunteers had heard about the bust, and so they sent one of their members up and said they could get up to five pounds on it. I mean, five pounds then in the 1930 would have been a lot more than it is now. And but still five pounds. [NK: Yeah.] So the community council, they buy it for five pounds. Later on in the 1980s the council as it was then kind of changed the way it worked. And so lots of offices were closed and the bust and other artefacts, along with Gordon from one of the council offices was put in storage but anyway, I managed to get a caretaker to let me in. There's the outdoor and then there's an indoor. And the indoor was being held open by this white thing. White piece of marble that I didn't know was marble at the time, but I actually got the photograph taken just leaning down beside the bust. And then it was in the newspaper. And then a local historian said, [NK: Wait a minute.] That looks like Gordon.

NK: Did you think we'd be here all of these years later, where now someone overseas, a buyer, is offering 2.5 million pounds, so nearly 4.5 million dollars Canadian for this sculpture. What would that money, that kind of money mean for Invergordon? What would you use that for?

MS: It would mean a huge amount because I was going to say, it went to Le Louvre and J. Paul Getty Museum and that's where it became internationally known. And that's where we got a bidder because of doing that a bidder came forward and said we will buy it. So, the 2.5 million would be invested and it would become a common good fund for the town of Invergordon. So every year we would get between 100 and 125 thousand pounds every single year forever to spend on the town. You know, we could make the high street better. We could do so much with it. We could also use some of the actual capital if we wanted to buy property. So it would mean so much to the local people. Something about 4200 people. We could do so much with that money.

NK: Who do you think wants to buy it?

MS: Well, I think it must be either Le Louvre who is my favourite guess, because obviously Edmé Bouchardon is from the French. And they've got some of these other artefacts in the museum, or it could be from Paul Getty. But my, my first choice is Le Louvre.

NK: Councillor Smith, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MS: Thank you. Thanks, Nil.

CH: Maxine Smith is a councillor in Invergordon, Scotland. We reached her at home.

[Music: Whimsical instrumental]

Part 2: Abu Ghraib Settlement, Maori Rights Bill, Idaho Abortion Case, Sask. Mayor-Elect

Abu Ghraib Settlement

Guest: Shareef Akeel

CH: For three Iraqi men, this week marks the end of a long legal battle. Since 2008 Salah Al-Ejaili, Suhail Al Shimari and Asa’ad al-Zuba’e have been suing the people who sexually, physically and psychologically abused them while they were detained at the U.S. controlled Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. And on Tuesday they were awarded a 42 million dollar settlement after a jury found that employees of CACI Premier Technology, a private defence contractor hired by the U.S. government, were liable for the abuses they committed. This marks the first time a private contractor has been found guilty of torture at the prison. Shareef Akeel is an attorney with one of the law firms that represented the plaintiffs. We reached Mr. Akeel in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

NK: Shareef, how are your clients doing today?

SHAREEF AKEEL: They're letting things sink in. It was a stunning moment for all of us. They're really appreciative and, but things are kind of marinating a little. They're still in a state of shock regarding this wonderful verdict.

NK: It's a lot for them to take in. And it's been a long time. You've been working on this case for 20 years now. So to you personally, what does it mean?

SA: This is a validation. It's an affirmation of our belief that what happened in 2003 and 2004 was not what America is about. This was a dark chapter in our country's history, and we made a decision to do what we can to bring justice for these Iraqi citizens and to demonstrate to the world that it doesn't matter where you are from. You are to be treated as a human being equally, whether you're an American or an Iraqi.

NK: These men to let our listeners know. One was a journalist. One a fruit vendor. Another a school principal. At the time they were detained, they were all ultimately released without ever facing any charges. Why do you believe they were detained in the first place?

SA: Well, at a point in 2003 and 2004, you know, there was a lot of people rounded up. There was a need for gathering intelligence. And the army did not have the resources and the manpower to be able to determine and gather evidence. And that's when they contracted with this contractor, CACI or C-A-C-I. They held themselves out there as resident experts, and that they will have properly trained interrogators to get information. They were supposed to do their job in gathering the proper information. And our clients, unfortunately, were caught up in a horrible situation, you know, and which we all know about.

NK: The company, in its defence argued, as you know, that it should not be held liable for any wrongdoing by its employees when they were under U.S. Army control. So what did you in the legal team you worked with, the one representing these plaintiffs, what did you have to do to prove to the jury that this company was liable for the actions of the handlers in this prison?

SA: Yes. We communicated to the jury that their approach, the defence contractor, CACI, all they did is deny, demean and deflect. They denied any liability for 21 years. They demeaned our clients, questioning their stories that they were tortured and subjected to cruel and inhumane, degrading treatment. And then they deflected, blaming the army, to go after the army. The jury saw through all of this and nailed them because America recognized that a very wrong occurred in Abu Ghraib. And actually some of the MPs were court martialled. They did prison time. They were held accountable. Rumsfeld, the late Rumsfeld, wrote a memo saying that there was people that did wrong. We have to hold accountable. There was a coalition provision 17 that was passed by Bremer. At that time he oversaw Iraq and he said, you can bring a claim here in America if you are hurt. The only entity, the only people to this day that got away scot free, got away, escaped all accountability, refused to, refused any responsibility was CACI. And thankfully, Tuesday, that jury came back, saw through all of this shenanigans and held them accountable for the wrongs that they committed.

NK: In a statement from the defence team, it reads in part that the company quote, has been wrongly subjected to long term negative affiliation with the unfortunate and reckless actions of a group of military police at Abu Ghraib prison from 2003 through 2004, unquote. And they're saying they plan to appeal the decision, the defence is. So when do you think this will actually be over for your clients?

SA: Yeah, this is part of their denying strategy right now and deflecting blame on the Army. We had two General's that testified, that implicated and identified CACI by name, including the individual interrogators that took part in this horrible conditions that our clients were subjected to. Inhumane treatment. And to this day, they're denying that they don't own up to anything.

NK: Your client's lived in at the prison. What's known as a hard site. The part of the prison where some of the most serious abuses occurred. They had to recount those abuses over and over again as you put this case together. And then it went to trial to come to this result. But the ongoing denials, the possibility of an appeal and the fact that they had to recount what they've been through for so long, what kind of toll has that taken?

SA: You know, our clients, although they did receive this verdict, they're still walking shells of themselves. They cannot erase from their memory you know, what they went through. It's imprinted there in their minds. It affected their relationships. And, you know, to add just more salt to the wound, as when you, when they see CACI continue to deny, look, we're very elated. Obviously, it's a substantial verdict, but it will never, never replace what our clients have lost, their dignity, the honour, their self-respect. To be treated like an animal. No money can replace what this very essence that was stripped or taken away from them.

NK: You know the images from Abu Ghraib that were released in the early 2000s, the treatment of prisoners revealed in those images, the official investigation that followed. I mean, a lot of that is seared in the minds of many people, but there's a whole new generation who may not be familiar. Why do you think it took so long to get to this point in this case?

SA: Well, again, part of that scheme of denying demeaning and deflecting is they filed over 21 motions to try to throw it, to throw out the case. You know that it shouldn't be in court, that the judge doesn't have jurisdiction on and on. And thankfully, we had our day in court and the jury spoke and saw through all of this.

NK: Shareef, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SA: Thank you.

CH: Shareef Akeel is one of the attorneys representing three Iraqi plaintiffs who were subjected to serious mistreatment at the U.S. controlled Abu Ghraib prison. We reached him in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Maori Rights Bill

CH: There's tension in New Zealand these days over a bill that aims to reinterpret the country's founding treaty with its Indigenous Maori people. The Act Party, which is a minor player in the ruling centre right coalition, introduced the bill. Opponents say it would put Indigenous rights at risk in a country known as a leader in that context. This week thousands of New Zealanders took part in a 10 day march across the country against the proposed legislation. And this morning the bill faced its first vote in Parliament. When asked if her party supported it, Maori Party MP Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke rose to her feet, tore the bill in half and began a traditional Haka dance. Many other MPs and the audience in the gallery joined in.

SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE VOICE: Mr. Speaker.

SPEAKER: A party vote has been called for, there's a process here.

FEMALE VOICE: Party Maori.

[Ms. Maipi-Clarke speaking in Māori before starting a Haka. Many other people join in the Haka]

SPEAKER: The House is, the house is suspended until the ringing of the bells. The gallery is to be cleared.

CH: Ms. Maipi-Clarke was subsequently suspended from the house. After a 30 minute break the first reading of the bill did eventually pass, but it's not expected to pass a second reading.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Idaho Abortion Case

Guest: Jennifer Adkins

CH: Today in a courtroom in Idaho the trial over the state's abortion law continued. Abortion is almost completely banned in Idaho, except in a few instances, including if the mother's life is at risk. In this lawsuit, the Centre for Reproductive Rights says the rules have, quote, "sown confusion, fear and chaos among the medical community, resulting in grave harms to pregnant patients whose health and safety hang in the balance across the state", unquote. It's asking for clarification regarding medical exceptions. Jennifer Adkins has experienced that fear and confusion firsthand. She's one of the plaintiffs in the case, and she says she was forced to leave her state for an abortion. We reached her in Caldwell, Idaho.

NK: Jennifer, you've told your story publicly now. You've testified in court this week and heard the stories of women with experiences similar to yours. I wonder now how all of that is sitting with you.

JENNIFER ADKINS: You know, it's an incredibly hard thing to do to talk about such a private and intimate experience that has been so traumatic for your family. I think a lot of us are feeling very relieved that that part is over, but also not because we know our stories are out there. We've, you know, kind of bared our hearts and souls. We hope that it helps change hearts and minds.

NK: As you were testifying, what was the main message you were hoping to get across to the judge in that courtroom?

JA: Well, you know, we needed health care in those moments. We needed to access it in our home states and we were not able to. And we just know that, you know, pregnancy and pregnancy complications are far too complex to govern. And really, those decisions should be left between the patients and their providers. And, you know, those providers should feel safe to be having those candid conversations and providing the health care that they know is the most appropriate for their patients.

NK: To let our listeners know. And I know you've said you're able to speak about this now. We appreciate that. You were at a routine 12 week ultrasound when you were told about your baby's chances of survival and also that there would be risks to your own health. Can you share with our listeners a little bit about what you heard that day?

JA: Yeah, we you know, we were expecting a routine, a fun 12 week ultrasound, and instead we're told, you know, that our baby had a pretty severe cystic hygroma. So a fluid filled sac behind her neck and she had swelling or edema, which is also known as hydrops fetalis, which means that, you know, her body cavity was essentially just full of fluid. And it was later discovered that the reason that she had those conditions was because she was missing one of her two X chromosomes. So that's known as Turner syndrome. So based on that diagnosis and, you know, the extreme swelling that she had, she was given a very, very low chance, basically no chance of survival.

NK: And there were risks to your health as well.

JA: Yeah. So they said, you know, we could continue the pregnancy knowing that I was likely to miscarry, knowing that if I did miscarry, that I would be at an increased risk of haemorrhaging. They also let me know that, you know, when you have, when you're carrying a baby with hydrops, a lot of times that puts you at a greater risk of developing Mirror syndrome, which means your symptoms will start mirroring those of your baby. So you will start, you know, filling up with fluid as well and having edema having high blood pressure and sometimes even life threatening pre-eclampsia.

NK: So you and your husband then are left to make that difficult decision. You were ultimately able to get an abortion, but not where you live. Not in Idaho. What do you want people to know about that experience of having to go out of state?

JA: You know, it was incredibly heartbreaking for my husband and I to have to make many phone calls to many different clinics in surrounding states to have to explain our situation and our diagnosis to complete strangers and try to find availability and you know, coordinate the travel. All while, you know, dealing with the grief that comes with knowing that your baby is not going to survive. We kind of had to put our grief on hold and walk ourselves through the logistics of finding an appointment, finding childcare for our living son, and, you know, coming up with the money to travel and then doing the travel and going to the appointment.

NK: A division chief with Idaho's attorney general's office, who said, you with the suit, you and the others are trying to usurp the role of the legislature. He said that in the, quote, rare circumstances where abortion is necessary, unquote, to prevent the death of a mother, it's already allowed to occur in Idaho. And saying that if they were to go with the definition proposed in this suit of an emergency medical situation, it could cover anything. And he brings an example, his words, again, of "a pregnant woman stepping on a rusty nail". How do you respond to what he's saying there?

JA: Yeah, I, I that, that statement was incredibly hurtful to folks like us. You know, likening our situation to stepping on a rusty nail was beyond insulting. I know I speak for myself, but I'm sure that the other plaintiffs and I'm sure anyone who has gone through a similar experience would say that, that is absolutely not what we're asking for here. And to categorize what our families went through as stepping on a rusty nail or, you know, similar to that and insinuating that that is, you know, something that we would seek abortion care for is completely asinine.

NK: Had your pregnancy been viable, your due date was, as I understand it, Halloween, October 31st just passed, obviously. How are you doing, Jennifer?

JA: You know, Halloween time is a hard time for our family. We now have two living sons. And so, you know, Halloween historically is such a fun holiday for the little ones. And it's so much fun to see, you know, our kids enjoy Halloween. But I think there's always a pain of sadness for us as their parents. Whenever we're celebrating Halloween, we're also thinking about the baby that we didn't get to bring home as the years pass. This is our second Halloween without our little girl. And I think the longer we are without her, the more we miss her because we see her absence in all the things that we do as a family. So we're doing all right. But as any grieving parent, I think, you know, we still have such a hard time moving forward with our lives.

NK: Jennifer, I'm so sorry for your loss, but thank you for making time for us.

NK: Thank you.

NK: Please take care.

NK: Yeah. Thank you.

CH: Jennifer Adkins is the lead plaintiff in a case related to Idaho's abortion ban. She's in Caldwell, Idaho.

[Music: Electronic instrumental]

Sask. Mayor-Elect

CH: Saskatoon officially has a new mayor. Last night, former city councillor Cynthia Block was elected, becoming the first woman to ever hold Saskatoon's top office. Senos Timon was also elected. He's the first ever Black city councillor in Saskatoon. This morning, the mayor-elect reflected on her win.

SOUNDCLIP

CYNTHIA BLOCK: It all feels a bit surreal to me and in a way sort of normal because I've been in City Hall, you know, for eight years and I've spent a lot of time there. I know who the staff are, and I know generally, you know, how things operate. So in that way, it feels normal. It's going to be very unusual to have a different title. And, you know, I think that there's just something, there's something different when you are, when it's your responsibilities set the tone from the top. That that weighs on me. I want to make sure that I represent well and that at the end of my time as an elected official, that I, you know, that the people of our community will think, you know, she served us well.

STEPHANIE MASSICOTTE: I said this to Senos as well, you know, long overdue to have our first Black city councillor, but also long overdue to have the first woman as mayor in Saskatoon. What does that mean to you and are you feeling any pressure with that?

CYNTHIA BLOCK: I think, first of all, I am honoured to have that role. I think representation does matter and I really want every woman and girl to know that, you know, leadership is for all people and women are people so that they should be able to see themselves in leadership, all kinds of leadership roles, including houses of leadership. And so that inspires me. But I'm also very inspired to have a councilman member joining us who is more representative of our whole community. And that representation matters too. So I'm excited to get to know Senos and to work together and see how we can again build a future together.

STEPHANIE MASSICOTTE: What is your top priority?

CYNTHIA BLOCK: I think the top priority has to be homelessness. I think we have to work urgently. Throughout the campaign, I've talked about how important it is that we get residents and businesses to the table to work alongside fire, police and service providers. We can figure out a way that we have a solid plan and get those dollars coming to our city directly from the federal government. We'll be able to deploy them on the ground quickly. And then work as hard as we can to get people off the streets into safe housing and transitional housing so that they can get out of homelessness. I mean, your city doesn't have all of those tools, but we have to work with other orders of government to achieve it.

CH: That was Saskatoon's newly elected mayor Cynthia Block speaking to Stephanie Massicotte on Saskatoon Today, this morning.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Part 3: 40 Paddles Birthday, Encore: Thrift Store Vase, Horgan's Executive Assistant, Social Lives Of Snakes, FOA: Idioms Dictionary

40 Paddles Birthday

CH: There's a woman in Ayr, Ontario, who has spent the whole year celebrating her birthday. To mark her 40th, Krista Vivian has paddled in 40 different bodies of water this year. Despite being a relative novice at kayaking. She made strict rules for herself. She had to paddle for at least 15 minutes in each place for it to count, and the name of each body of water had to appear on a map. And over seven months, she managed to reach her goal of 40 and she turned 40. Here's Krista Vivien talking to the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

KRISTA VIVIAN: I got lost and things like that.

CRAIG NORRIS: Wait, wait. Where did you get lost?

KRISTA VIVIAN: It's somewhere where I'm really familiar with, actually, the Saugeen River in Hanover. [CN: Oh, yeah] There's a couple of rivers that come together there, so I try to find spots where there's, like, you know, two for one or three for one water bodies and close together. And a friend had property there. So I wanted to make sure I went by this property and it was windy and I wasn't paying attention. So the wind was actually blowing the opposite direction of the water. I went the wrong way, but I was committed to this. And you know, the map, nothing looks like the map when you're trying to look on your phone. And so anyways, I, many phone calls to my husband who's waiting at this pickup point for hours now, at this point. I end up trying to find a new pickup point. And there's a swan just I see... Like at first it was a white dot. And, you know, I'm aware we stay away from swans. You know, let them do their thing. But it was coming towards me. So the swans, like, attacking me [CN: What!] and I'm on the phone with my phone with my husband. Yeah. It came right up on my kayak, and I warned it. I was like, do not come over here. And I tried to get away. I don't know if it's because I was talking on the phone and making too much noise. I was a bit in distress. But anyway, as I got past the swan and got up out of there and yeah, that was... It was just a day that nothing went my way that day.

CRAIG NORRIS: So were there days when you're like, I just don't want to do this today? But you just went through it.

KRISTA VIVIAN: There was one day we went to three spots and you couldn't get in anywhere. So we came to this creek that was also extremely shallow and it was smelly and gross. And I was like, You know what? I just, I need this number. Like, we're getting to the end. It's November. So I just went in the mud and just kept going and just got that one done. So maybe those are times I didn't want to do it.

CRAIG NORRIS: Looking ahead, what's your next challenge? Have you thought of anything yet?

KRISTA VIVIAN: My husband will be turning... We'll be having a significant birthday coming up. And he's talking about doing walks in the woods with his wife. So I'll be joining him on those, maybe. I inspired a friend. I don't know. We'll just see where it takes. But I think I would like to try to do this again. I'm not going to do 41, 42, 43, but I will continue to challenge myself in different ways. I wanted to try cross-stitching, so maybe I'll do something less physically demanding and do that. [laughter].

CH: That was Krista Vivian speaking with Craig Norris, host of The Morning Edition in Kitchener-Waterloo.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Encore: Thrift Store Vase

CH: Earlier on the program, we heard about an 18th century marble sculpture in Scotland worth millions of dollars that was bought for the equivalent of six bucks and was being used as a doorstop. Which brought to mind another tale of a treasure found in humble circumstances. It happened in Hanover County, Virginia, where a glass vase caught the eye of thrift store enthusiast Jessica Vincent. Her gamble on that five dollar purchase at a local goodwill paid off when it fetched the equivalent of 140 thousand dollars Canadian at auction. Nil spoke with Jessica Vincent last December.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: You were watching, Jessica, the auction online. You knew it was going to make some money. But what was it like to see the number keep going up and up and up?

JESSICA VINCENT: It was unbelievable to see the numbers go up and up. I had tears in my eyes. I was so excited. It's just a life-changing amount of money. It was incredible. I have never felt so excited in my whole life, I don't think.

NK: You're an experienced thrifter, so you get little excitement when you find a find, I'm sure. This is on another level, it sounds like.

JV: Absolutely. This is a level that I never dreamed of. Although, I never, I never crossed it out of my mind that it couldn't happen either, though. I kind of grew up with the stories, you know, yard sale finds, three dollar yard sale find sells for a million dollars, [NK chuckles] those sort of things. So, I always felt it was a possibility. But I never, I never dreamed that it would happen, and especially the way it did. It was just such an average day.

NK: So, you're at a Goodwill earlier this year. You see this vase. What, what drew you to it?

JV: Initially, it was the size, and it was the colour. I saw it from a distance when I first sort of came into the doors and got near the shelf. I couldn't get very close to it at first. There were so many people in the store and there was a lot of people with carts in the aisles sort of blocking my way. But initially, it was definitely the size and the colour that caught my eye. But at first, I didn't even know it was glass. I wasn't even sure what it was made of when I first saw it.

NK: It is glass, and what does it look like? I mean, I've seen it. But for our listeners, describe what you saw.

JV: Yeah. It has a very large size. It's almost 14 inches tall. It's just the most beautiful, iridized glass when you see it up close. It had just such a pretty iridescence and the, the brushstrokes around the bottle, in the amethyst and in the teal. It was just so beautiful. I knew it was not painted. I knew it was glass when I had it in my hand and had it up close. It was just such quality like I could feel it. It was heavy. I knew it was blown. The bottom was polished and finished very nicely. And it didn't have, like, the crude sort of mark on the bottom. It was, it was finished beautifully.

NK: And so, you knew it was special, But did you think it was this special?

JV: No, no, no, not at all. I know Murano was pretty good, so I figured --

NK: Murano glass from Italy.

JV: I could decipher Murano glass, yes. And it did have the Murano Italia mark. There was another mark above it, which was the factory mark, which I could not make out at the time. But when I saw Murano, I knew it was a good quality piece and maybe, maybe worth like a thousand or two thousand dollars. I wasn't really sure, but I knew it was something nice.

NK: So, were you planning to display it on a mantel or something like that? Or for a thousand, you were going to check it out. You were going to see.

JV: I was going to check it out and see. But initially, just my gut instinct was, yes, just bring it home and sort of put it in my random collection of things. I'm very eclectic collector. I'm a maximalist. I love things and beautiful objects. So, yes, I was just going to bring it home and find a spot in my bookshelf for it.

NK: And so, what made you want to, want to research at a little, little bit more, jump online and ask the, the community?

JV: Yeah, well, I love to know what I have. So, I love to look at marks. If something is marked, I think that's great because it kind of gives me a leg up on doing my research. I knew since it was marked, somebody must be familiar with it, even though I was not. So, I got on an art glass identification group that I'm a member of on Facebook. They were like, oh, send that to the Murano group. I think they would be interested in that. So I said, okay, I'll join the Murano group because I was not a member. I posted pictures and my little explanation of, you know, what it was. People knew that it was Venini pretty much right away. They're like, Oh, that's a Venini mark. Venini being the maker, the factory that made it. Even though it is a Carlo Scarpa design, nobody at first knew that it was a Carlo Scarpa. But then I had one person chime in and they were like, I have loved Carlo Scarpa and that is definitely a pennellate. I was just like, oh my goodness.

NK: So when you hear that though -- and then get estimates -- I mean, which were much lower than what it ended up going for, does it go from excitement to total fear that something is going to happen to it?

JV: It really is a lot of responsibility, I think, when you find out something you own is so valuable. It kind of makes you go through all the scenarios in your head, like what if? So, I was very careful with it and I just sort of bubble wrapped it. I wrapped it up in that. I think I had a tablecloth around it and I put it into a box and I just sort of left it for safekeeping because, yeah, it did make me a little bit nervous when I found out, you know, what the value could be. Even at 30 to 50 thousand, that is a whole lot of money to me. So.

NK: And how will that money help you and your family now?

JV: It is going to help immensely. I purchased a 1930s farmhouse earlier in the year.

NK: Congratulations.

JV: It has pretty much no heat. I'm working on two space heaters right now. My dream is to get HVAC, like heating and cooling and a dishwasher. I definitely, a dishwasher is really on my list of things to do, even though it's not a huge, like, you know, deal to most people. It's a really big deal to me because I've been wanting one for a long time, so.

NK: Yeah, no that, these sound like very, very sound and smart decisions. And given that Carlo Scarpa was an architect and an artisan, you know, back in the '40s.

JV: Right.

NK: He would appreciate your commitment to your new, your new home, your new structure.

JV: Sure. Yeah, I hope so.

NK: Does this change your approach to thrifting now, or just prove that you've been doing it right all this time?

JV: I think it's a little bit of validation for me. It's like, yes, this can happen, and it happens just when you don't even expect it. It's not that you're, for me, it's not that I was going out seeking, oh, I'm going to find something really valuable. I just went with what I loved and I picked up what I love and it just really worked out in my favour in such a beautiful way.

NK: Well, Jessica, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JV: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure talking with you.

CH: That was Jessica Vincent of Brookfield, Virginia, speaking to Nil last December.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Horgan's Executive Assistant

CH: The late John Horgan was a storyteller. He was also a character in a lot of stories. And since his death on Tuesday at the age of 65, British Columbians have been sharing their stories about the former NDP premier. In 2017, Evan Brown was working at a bar near the legislature where he got to know a couple who came in pretty regularly. They happened to be Mr. Horgan's press secretary and her husband. And even though Mr. Brown had no experience in politics, they suggested he apply to become Mr. Horgan's new executive assistant. That led to what Evan Brown called his unorthodox journey to the B.C. Legislature. In an interview with the CBC this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

EVAN BROWN: I wasn't told. Later, when I look back, I'm like, okay, I kind of get why they thought I would be a good fit because you have to be attentive and quick on your feet and be able to manage different personalities. Talk to an array of people from different backgrounds that, you know, bartenders do it day in and day out. So I kind of get why they wanted me, but I didn't understand. And so they bring me down to the legislature to meet John. And I had no idea what I was walking into. And to be honest, it probably benefited me that I didn't know who John was or didn’t and didn't really care at the time [GC: Yeah] because I wasn't nervous, really. [GC: Right.] I was, he didn't hold, you know. And I walk in and John just starts asking about, you know, what's your favourite music? And like, what shows are you into right now? And funny enough, asked me who the backup goalie of the Canucks was at the time and which I luckily knew the answer. And I said, So you're a bartender? And I said, Yeah, I am. And he said, Well, he was a, John was briefly a server at The Keg just out of high school. [GC: Yeah] And he says, well, how many plates can you carry? I can, I can carry four. And I'm like, I might be able to carry four. So he brings me down to the kitchen and, you know, we're, we're loading up our arms with plates. And a Deputy Minister happens to be walking by, probably going into a meeting within the chief of staff's office and just kind of stops and looks at us and he's like, what the hell is going on in there. And asked one of the admin assistants or something out there. And she goes, I think it's a job interview. [laughter] John used to tell this story because, you know, he thought it was hilarious. And, you know, the way that we came together in such an unusual way. But shortly after that, like I still had to go through due process of being hired in the government. So then I had to, you know, pretty rigorous interviews with, you know, with a panel of senior staff that I was not prepared for. I felt like I absolutely bombed them. I probably hadn't had an actual interview since I was like, you know, a teenager. Because when you work in the trade or when you work in hospitality, you end up just getting hired because people know you. And I ended up squeaking through to the Work Day interview, which was a day in which I would shadow John at a couple events. And for me that was the easiest part of the entire interview process because like I said, it was just like bartending and then I got the job.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: Well, it's great to hear some of your memories, Evan. I know it's a difficult week. Can I ask you what, how you'll remember John?

EVAN BROWN: Oh man, I... Sorry, Gregor.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: No. No apology needed.

EVAN BROWN: John just had a gravitational pull that anyone who has ever been around him could attest to. And you know, his presence alone was just enough to bring people together. And it's funny because, you know, his traits that made him, that were un-politician in nature are what made him so lovable as a politician and as a person. Incredibly self-deprecating. You know, always able to laugh himself, just so much humility. Incredibly authentic and genuinely funny.

CH: That was Evan Brown, who worked as an executive assistant to the late John Horgan. Speaking with the CBC's Gregor Craigie. The former premier of B.C. and Canada's ambassador to Germany, died this week. He was 65.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Social Lives Of Snakes

Guest: Morgan Skinner

CH: Most people don't think of snakes as social butterflies, and most pet snakes are kept in solitary enclosures. The feeling, I suppose, is that one snake is enough for a household. And, you know, even snakes probably don't want to hang out with each other. But a new study by researchers at Wilfrid Laurier University in Ontario is suggesting that we might have underestimated their love of company. It turns out the ball python, one of the world's most popular pet snake breeds, is actually much cuddly than most people think. And not just in the sense of wanting to cuddle things really hard until they die. That discovery even surprised the scientists involved. Morgan Skinner is the study's lead author, and we reached him in Calgary.

NK: Morgan, I've learned that some snakes are known for hanging out together, but people don't usually think that pythons in particular are the cuddly type. I think you were one of those folks as well. So what made you want to take a look and research ball pythons in particular?

MORGAN SKINNER: So, we had done some research previously on garter snakes, which are kind of the ideal snake to study social behaviour in at least in my thinking...

NK: The ones most people are least scared of, I would guess.

MORGAN SKINNER: Yeah, well, they're the kind we see around here in Canada and they're not very threatening and they like to get together in groups to, to mate and to hibernate. So, you know, social contact should create patterns of social behaviour. So we looked at that and we found some really interesting patterns in these garter snakes. And I wanted a counterpoint. So people often think of social behaviour only as like the cuddly types of social behaviour. But it, it runs the gambit from fighting and territoriality and, you know, all those, deception, all those things that two individuals can do that aren't necessarily cuddly. And I wanted to see what a snake that was less social in my thinking and in common perception would do. So I could compare them, you know, here's my social snakes and what they do. And how does this compare to a non-social snake.

NK: So, you thought ball pythons for sure are going to confirm what you're thinking. They're non-social and then you're met by a few surprises. What did you find as you checked in on these snakes?

MORGAN SKINNER: Yes, we took our experiment and we expanded it up. And we, you know, did, ran the same thing, put them in. And so they're nocturnal. So crepuscular and nocturnal. And I came in at like 2 a.m. in the middle of the night to check on them to do my shuffle. And to my surprise, when I started lifting up the shelters, the first one I lifted up, they were all there together in one big group. [NK: Cuddle?] Yeah. Big one cuddle of snakes. And, you know, maybe that should be the name. So, yeah, so I was like, okay, that's strange. So, you know, I did my regular routine of taking them out cleaning and putting everything back in and putting them back in. And came back in for the second shuffle and they were all under the same shelter again. And I was like, okay, this is interesting. So my first thought was maybe this is something about this location in the arena. Maybe, you know, I had my PhD student experimental design panics. And so, we decided at the end of the experiment, we take out this home base that they have developed and see how they would respond to it. And then we put it back in and see if they came back to it. Assuming that if it was something about that location, they would come back, when we put it back. And then they transitioned to a new home base and they didn't come back. And, you know, it was a little bit of stressing for nothing because each group that we tested and we tested four more groups, a total of five chose you know, they chose different home bases. So it wasn't something about that location or that shelter in particular. It was they were, they were choosing a place.

NK: Do you think this is about social bonding or is it just, I don't know, staying, staying warm, you know, in the way rattlesnakes do when they huddle together in dens.

MORGAN SKINNER: So I think. We have this idea that social behaviour, we do it for fun. And but it's really hard to separate why we do social behaviour from the evolutionary reasons that, that it started like social behaviour has benefits. So social bonding has benefits, so it's really hard to separate them. And I think that this social behaviour in snakes inevitably has some benefit to them, whether it's protection from predators or it helps them, you know, maintain heat and moisture so that they can digest better. But that can come with neural mechanisms or whatever that draws the snakes to interact. And whether you want to call that social bonding or not.

NK: As someone who does this work, you certainly know about the misconceptions that people have about snakes in general. But in terms of snakes, you know, operating on their own that they like being alone, Why do you think that is such a common misconception?

MORGAN SKINNER: So, I think we're very visual and we, when we think of social behaviour, we think of animals that like flocks of birds or, you know, things that we can visualize and see oh, those animals are being social. And when you have animals that do kind of hidden social behaviour like in burrows or... And when we see them like a snake, we see them alone because maybe they hunt, they don't hunt in groups. Then we think oh, those animals must not be social. But, you know, animals need, most animals need to be social in some way. And, you know, I knew that ball pythons would be social in some way. It was just surprising that it was social attraction. That was not what I was expecting. So I think we just, we don't believe it unless we see it.

NK: Morgan I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

MORGAN SKINNER: You're welcome. Thank you.

CH: Morgan Skinner is the lead author of a new study looking into the sociability of ball pythons. He's in Calgary.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

FOA: Idioms Dictionary

CH: Earlier in the show, you may have heard me stubbed my toe on one of the many very heavy items from Reading that are strewn around our studio. It hurt. So I yelled, ouch. And I'm not a linguist, but I believe that's a pretty standard reaction to pain, at least in English. And experts agree, except they've found it's a standard reaction to pain pretty much everywhere. A team of linguists looked at 600 interjections of pain, disgust and joy from 131 languages to see which ones share the same sound patterns. And they found that when someone on the other side of the world stubs their toe on a stupid doorstop. Sorry. They open their mouth wide and make a noise similar to. Ouch. Now, of course, we knew that certain utterances are common around the world. Take Adam Sharp's book: "The Wheel Is Spinning, But The Hamster Is Dead: A Journey Around The World In Idioms, Proverbs, and General Nonsense". Last September, he told Nil why it is that so many sayings transcend language.

SOUNDCLIP

ADAM SHARP: It's a really lovely thing, actually. So when, when I first started posting these lists on Twitter, a big part of it was just it was a fun thing to do and I'd become obsessed with different languages. But also, there was some intent behind it in that there was this rising tide of nationalism. Brexit had just happened here. And I was just really concerned about, about this sort of nationalism and the xenophobia that comes with it and the distrust of other cultures. There was part of me that really wanted to sort of try, in a very sort of subtle into light, light way, respond to that by showing the sort of the vibrancy of other cultures and sort of languages.

NK: The things that connect us, and words, words and books do that, right?

AS: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. One of the nicest sort of things, I did a, did a big list of the words in all different languages for a thing-a-ma-gig or what-cha-ma-call-it. And I'm yet to come across a language that doesn't have [NK chuckles] their own version of it. And such great words as well. Dingsbums in German. [NK chuckles] Huppeldepup in Dutch. Zamazingo... Am I saying that right in Turkish?

NK: Yeah! Yeah, yeah. Zamazingo.

AS: Animal sounds around the world are often really fun as well. And I suppose the other side of it as well that sort of that comes out, national rivalries come out.

NK: Oh?!

AS: So, in Norwegian, they have an expression which is an equivalent to ‘like a fish out of water’, which translates to ‘like a Dane on skis’. [NK: That’s not nice] And then, in Finland they have a euphemism for vomiting that translates to ‘speaking Norwegian’. Actually, now, now I think about it -- if you don't mind -- I can read you another list that expresses that.

NK: Yes.

AS: Because it ends with, ends with a Turkish phrase, which would be perfect one for you. [NK chuckles] So, if someone sneaks out of a party quietly without saying goodbye, in England, we call that ‘taking French leave’.

NK: Okay. French exit or Irish exit.

AS: Yes. In France, they call it leaving English style. [NK chuckles] In Norway, they call it making a Swede of oneself. [NK gasps] In Germany, it's doing a Polish exit. As you said, in the U.S. And Canada, giving an Irish goodbye or an Irish exit. [NK chuckles] And a great, old Turkish phrase that I found -- which is number one in that list, actually, in the book -- is to depart like a rich person.

NK: It says something. It says something about the class structure in Turkey. It certainly does.

AS: Yes, exactly!

NK: Okay, before we say goodbye, you have a list of, you know, animal-themed farewells. Certainly, we're familiar with, ‘in a while, crocodile’. But your list, take us through some of them. What might we say instead of, ‘in a while, crocodile’?

AS: In Spanish -- me voy de aquí, vampiro -- is I'm out of here, vampire.

NK: Oh!

AS: There's a Norwegian rhyming goodbye that translates to goodbye on the toilet, you old chocolate.

NK: Oh.

AS: And there's actually, [NK chuckles] you can actually reply to that with another rhyme that translates to see you tonight, old caramel.

NK: Too da loo, kangaroo. Thank you, Adam Sharp.

AS: Thank you, bye.

CH: From last September, that was author Adam Sharp speaking with Nil about his book: "The Wheel is Spinning but the Hamster is Dead: A Journey Around the World in Idioms, Proverbs and General Nonsense".

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For November 14, 2024

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