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The AIH Transcript for November 20, 2024

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NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Bombs away. An intense storm known as a bomb cyclone detonates on the Pacific coast. We will check in with the mayor of one of the hardest hit cities Nanaimo, B.C.

CH: Mine shaft. The Biden administration okays the use of landmines in Ukraine. To the disappointment of Lloyd Axworthy, who led the push to ban them and warns this is a weapon that never stops hurting.

NK: Taking a stand on the stand. Four years after his arrest, Hong Kong businessman Jimmy Lai testifies at his own trial. His son tells us he's relieved to see that his father is still fighting for democracy, even after years in solitary confinement.

CH: COP plea. The climate talks are hitting crunch time in Azerbaijan, where a professor and critic of that country's oil policy says the regime has locked him up for expressing his views.

NK: Garage Bond. We pay tribute to Vic Flick, the studio guitarist who played on countless classics and whose razor sharp riff on 007's theme music left audiences shaken and stirred.

CH: And accents and sensibility. If you're ever tempted to try talking like a local while travelling in the UK or Ireland. Not everyone will be chuffed, guv'nor. And a new study has determined where your phony elocution is most likely to be found out. As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio never goes off half-Cockneyed.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: B.C. Bomb Cyclone, Ukraine Land Mines, Fake Accents Study

B.C. Bomb Cyclone

Guest: Leonard Krog

CH: The bomb cyclone has been exactly as explosive as its name suggests. Tens of thousands of people are still without power in B.C. after the storm hit last night. It took down trees and damaged power lines all over the southwestern part of the province. Meteorologists are saying the hurricane force wind gusts are lasting longer than normal and that some areas could see a metre of snow tonight on top of the wind and rain. Many of the lasting power outages are in the Nanaimo area. Leonard Krog is the mayor of Nanaimo and that's where we reached him earlier today.

NK: Mayor Krog, what does it sound and feel like, even if you're hunkered down inside to be in the midst of a bomb cyclone?

LEONARD KROG: Well, it was a different experience, I suspect, for many folks to hear that kind of wind. And depending on where you live, a tree brushing up against your roof or your house, leaves flying. It was an experience. But I do feel sorry for many people who have damaged houses now, who are still without power, and notwithstanding the Herculean efforts of the workers at BC Hydro to restore power. As of this morning, we still had 90 thousand customers in British Columbia without power and 80 thousand of them were on Vancouver Island in the Gulf Islands. And Nanaimo was one of the worst hit areas.

NK: How did you get through the night?

LK: Mercifully, our power was out for about three hours. The meal was half cooked and we had a much later candlelight dinner hosting my brother in law and sister in law. So it was an experience. You know, we have reports of houses with trees on them, power lines down by trees. Because we've had such dry summers for the last few years of course, a lot of these trees are drought damaged and therefore more susceptible to being blown down in this kind of epic storm.

NK: Have you had a chance, Mayor, to get out and survey the damage up close?

LK: I've done a little bit this morning. Quite candidly, it's a busy day at city hall [NK: Sure] and nothing stops. But even on the way to work, there was one intersection where the lights were out in that part of the community. And my standard route from Departure Bay into Nanaimo and a lot of people saw that. The aid council her power has just been restored after being out since 7:00 last night. So, you know, it's getting on to three quarters of a day without power. My sister in law is still without power. You're hearing these reports from all over the community.

NK: Yeah. Any sense at this early stage, Mayor, of how long it will take to get power restored and get things a bit, you know, back on track?

LK: Hydro is not making any predictions that I'm aware of, but I can tell you, being familiar with wind in British Columbia, where I was born and raised, it could take them several days in some, depending on the circumstances, particularly in rural areas where you've got lots of trees that have taken lines down. There's a safety issue here. Of course, if the winds pick up again, you don't want workers out trying to restore power, placing your lives at risk any more than they already do every day by undertaking their work. It's a wakeup call for all of us to be prepared to deal with the significant aspects of climate change. You know, as I said, the drought damaged trees are coming down and winter storms now. What does the winter look like? You know, we're going to get a snowfall sometime soon. You know, can we react appropriately? These are challenges that every community faces.

NK: What have you been doing to make sure people were as prepared as they could be at this stage?

LK: We sent out an alert to folks to get prepared and be prepared. You know, there's a number of things that all of us can do and need to do. And because British Columbia, much of the island, is in an earthquake zone, I think a number of folks for years have had packages, so to speak, in their house or knapsacks [NK: Go bags, yeah] filled with their essentials. Exactly. A very necessary thing, because when it does happen, it's not going to, it's not going to be easy for people. Practical things, my sister in law can't even get her car out of her garage because she's not capable of lifting the garage door. There is a simple example. So she will be, unless power gets restored soon, she's going to be completely reliant on neighbours.

NK: At last check, there were no injuries or deaths in B.C. because of this storm. There are two deaths reported by Reuters in Seattle and two more injuries. Has that changed at all in terms of injuries in Nanaimo?

LK: No deaths or injuries that I'm aware of, certainly that have made the news, in any event. Which is a bit of a miracle in some respects because of the number of trees that came down, downed power lines, flying branches, fir trees are notorious for that, big branches coming down and can seriously injured or killed anybody.

NK: You mentioned the ongoing impacts of climate change and bracing for that, preparing for that in August to let our listeners know, the regional district of Nanaimo announced it was going to be drafting a climate change action plan. And part of that would include plans for wildfire resilience and climate ready buildings. So something like this, I would imagine, underlines the need for that. But what do you hope is communicated in that and delivered as a result of that plan?

LK: I hope what is delivered is, in fact, very practical for people that people can relate to it and they can undertake changes themselves about their lifestyle, their own dwellings and homes and how they operate. We need to be prepared. Emergency management now has come to the forefront in the last few years. Certainly the province has shown leadership on this issue for a number of years now and it behooves all of us to get on board. You only have to watch the nightly news, so to speak, from around the world and see that there are other parts of the planet that are dealing with even more extreme events. But there's no question that extreme events are becoming so common it's hard to describe them as extreme events anymore in some respects, they are indeed part of the daily existence of people. And you know, if you're lucky and you've got great forecasters, you know, you know something like last night's event is coming and you can prepare quickly, but that's not always going to be the case.

NK: Mayor Krog, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

LK: Yes, Thank you very much.

CH: Leonard Krog is the mayor of Nanaimo, British Columbia, and that's where we reached him earlier today.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Ukraine Land Mines

Guest: Lloyd Axworthy

CH: Today was another tense day in Kyiv. Both the Canadian and American embassies shut down after warnings of a significant air attack. A day after Ukraine used American made missiles to strike inside Russian territory for the first time. And in another first, the Biden administration has agreed to supply Ukraine with anti-personnel land mines. The weapons have been widely condemned. 164 countries, including Ukraine, signed on to the Ottawa Treaty, named for the 1996 conference at which Canada's then foreign minister, Lloyd Axworthy, first proposed the international agreement to end the use of landmines. Here's what Mr. Axworthy told As It Happens about the agreement during the final negotiations leading up to its ratification in 1997.

SOUNDCLIP

LLOYD AXWORTHY: The early signs are that we have a very broad based treaty aiming at a ban and elimination of the landmines. And so far everything looks like there's a strong momentum to get a real stoppage of the production use and exploitation of these weapons.

CH: We reached Lloyd Axworthy again today in Ottawa.

NK: Lloyd Axworthy, that conversation is from nearly 30 years ago now. When you hear that, when you think of all the work that you and others have done on this issue, were you surprised to see this announcement from the Biden administration today?

LLOYD AXWORTHY: I was surprised. I was disappointed. And frankly, I was a little depressed by it. It seemed that, once again, here is a U.S. administration that's kind of going back on its word. You know, I guess what disturbed me most is just reading what the commentary was from the Secretary of Defence, Lloyd Austin, said, I thought it was a good idea. Well, I mean, this is a treaty that, of which Ukraine is a signatory. You're breaking it. You're setting up a momentum that other countries are going to follow. And I think you need a little bit more justification. And it was a good idea.

NK: It sounds like you think this is a dangerous precedent in this moment.

LA: Yeah, it is. I think one thing about a treaty is not just because it's a piece of paper that has been signed. I think the Landmine Treaty has set a fairly high standard and normal. 160 countries and countries like the United States generally have said we will adhere to the kind of obligations and requirements. And over the years, but especially in the Obama years, they were very good. The Trump years not so good. But in all the cases, I think there was a feeling that the treaty does stand for something. So part of that large liberal order that we talk about that protects people, respects law and gives some sense of security and this move by Biden in the last couple of weeks of his administration undoes that and sets in motion, I think, some serious, serious consequences.

NK: You mentioned the U.S. Defence Secretary, Lloyd Austin will play for you and our listeners a bit more of what he said about this today.

SOUNDCLIP

LLOYD AUSTIN: Because the Russians have been so unsuccessful in the way that they have been fighting. They've kind of changed their tactics a bit and they don't lead with their mechanized forces anymore. They lead with dismounted forces who are able to close in and do things to kind of pave the way for mechanized forces.

NK: So he's saying Russia has changed tactics, that army has. So Ukraine needs these land mines to answer that shift in tactics. What do you make of that argument?

LA: Well, it sounds like it's a very tactical, technical argument that doesn't really address the larger issue, that there is a treaty of which Ukraine is a signatory, which provides protection. The reality is that I think the Pentagon all along has not treated the ban on landmines as really something that they're committed to. They were there because the political leadership in the States generally was promoting it. And there was a consensus around the world, two thirds of the world's countries adhere to it. So I think that excuse and it is an excuse really stands in contrast to the fact that, you know, the Americans have not been wholesale full bore, engaged in giving Ukraine what it needed to defend itself. There's been all kinds of restraints. You couldn't use these kinds of airplanes. You couldn't use these kinds of weapons. I mean, they've been there, they organize the coalition. Congratulations. But they've never really given Ukraine the kind of full monty to go ahead. And now they're saying it's the problem for landmines. Well, that I think is just a placebo.

NK: You're saying that you're not opposed to the argument that Ukraine is in an urgent and dire situation and needs military help, just not landmines?

LA: No, Nil. I mean, I'm working, I've worked very hard the last couple of years. As you know, I received the Taras Shevchenko Award from the Ukrainian-Canadian congress for my work in Ukraine, helping to set up the democracy and through the Council I chair. I've been a strong advocate of know increasing support for Ukraine, but not to the point where you're breaking laws and treaties which will have repercussions, direct repercussions for the people in Ukraine. Last year was close to 600 Ukrainians killed with landmines. We can hold Russians responsible for that. But one thing about landmines, they don't go away when the wars end, they stay around and they stay around and they kill a lot of innocent people.

NK: Secretary Austin also talked about the type of mines. He's saying that these are non-persistent mines. They're built to self-destruct or become inactive, making them, in his words, safer than the Ukrainian made mines already in use. Is this a case of the lesser of two evils? If they are designed to self-destruct and be less dangerous?

LA: I think that's a kind way of saying what I think is Pentagon bafflegab frankly, I mean, a landmine, as passive as they think is still a very destructive weapon. The fact is, if it's stuck in the ground, it's going to be there. And at some point 10 years from now, some poor soul, probably a child or a woman or a farmer in the field is going to be maimed or killed by it. We're now contributing to it. The United States is once again saying, well, here's another treaty that we can break with impunity. And that really I, I think it has a lot of consequence in terms of other countries saying, well, Americans can do it. So can we.

NK: Do you think what is unfolding right now, does it signal to you that there needs to be more teeth to this agreement to keep nations like Ukraine who signed on from going back on their word? Because you've mentioned they're signatory, obviously. But Human Rights Watch has been reporting, as Lloyd Austin pointed out as well, that they're making their own and using them, these mines, Ukraine is. So is this a signal to you that the treaty needs work, it needs more teeth?

LA: Yeah. I think you put the finger on it there's no question that the state parties have been pretty leisurely or lackadaisical in the enforcement side. I mean, there has to be a much stronger sense of condemnation and application of the requirements and obligations of those who are state parties, though I think that we have to ask, can we not toughen up on that? And instead, of becoming more energetic, more robust. The decision by the Biden administration is just going to weaken that effort.

NK: Lloyd Axworthy, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

LA: Well, thank you for the call.

CH: Lloyd Axworthy is the chair of the World Refugee and Migration Council. He served as Canada's foreign minister from 1996 to 2000. He's in Ottawa.

[Music: Electric guitar instrumental]

Fake Accents Study

Guest: Jonathan Goodman

SOUNDCLIP

Dick Van Dyke as Bert in Disney's "Mary Poppins".

CH: The great Dick Van Dyke, of course, in "Mary Poppins" doing what he himself would later describe as the most atrocious Cockney accent in the history of cinema. He was not the first to make that assessment. After all, the many accents of the UK and Ireland are serious to those what 'av 'em, and there really are many. The accent of Northeast England is different from the accident in Essex and Bristol. The South, including London, uses what's known as Received Pronunciation, sometimes called Standard British. There's Belfast and Dublin and of course, Glasgow, Scotland. Those are the seven accents that were the focus of a recent study by Cambridge University researchers. They played short clips of both real and fake accents and asked English speakers from those regions if they could tell the difference. Jonathan Goodman is the lead author of the study, and we reached him in London.

NK: Jonathan, let's first address what will become very obvious very soon. You have an American accent. So was it tricky for you to determine which of these seven regional accents were genuine or fake?

JONATHAN GOODMAN: Yeah, that is a really fun thing to point out right at the beginning. Can I just ask, out of curiosity, how, you know I'm American as opposed to, let's say, Canadian?

NK: Well, I was told, but I can hear in your voice. I will say usually I can, I can spot or hear American versus Canadian or Turkish versus other. Another background as well. Are we wrong?

JG: No, you're not wrong at all. It's just, it's so interesting, given the nature of the study that, that was something that you, you know, brought to the fore. And it's something I've been talking to a lot of people about today.

NK: I do hear a slight lilt, perhaps because of your time in the UK

JG: Oh that's embarrassing. Yeah, very, very embarrassing.

NK: No, it doesn't come across as fake, It comes across as, as natural given where you are. But also, did it make it easier or harder?

JG: It actually didn't really affect that. So we were coming at this from the angle of anthropologists exploring the evolutionary origins and importance of what accents are from. The perspective of thinking of accents as a kind of expression of a person's social identity. That was in collaboration with the phonetics lab in Cambridge. So putting those sentences together and figuring out which accents to target, that was very much going with the recommendations from the phonetics lab.

NK: Understood. Before we get into the results. Let's play some of the clips for our listeners that you and the team played for participants in the study. Here's someone speaking with a Belfast accent. And we'll see if I and everyone else listening at home can guess if it's real or fake.

SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE VOICE: He thought a bath would make him happy.

NK: Genuine? Yes.

JG: Correct.

NK: Okay. What are the giveaways.

JG: In that one. It's hard to say. There's a kind of confidence with which that she's speaking and she hits all the phonemes that we want to hear, but it's without any hesitation. I think that's one of the things that people pick up on when they tell whether someone's faking an accent or not.

NK: The confidence with which it is delivered.

JG: Yeah, exactly.

NK: Okay, let's do Bristol.

SOUNDCLIP

MALE VOICE: They serve such good food in bars.

NK: Well, that sounds like AI, first of all, but I don't know about that. But is it a real or fake?

JG: Well, what do you think?

NK: I'm not that familiar with a Bristol accent, but just given how it sounded, I'm going to say fake.

JG: Yeah, it's a fake accent. And I think the thing they're the giveaway for a lot of people, not one, is that you can hear the speakers received pronunciation underneath the Bristol, there's elements that he associates with the West country that it would have been in the recording. But you can hear that underneath it a little bit, there are some of those received pronunciation phonemes coming out anyway. That was an easy one [laughter]. I thought we were giving to people, but there are some that actually get quite a bit harder.

NK: How did you pick which phrases to use? That was intentional, obviously. Why?

JG: Yeah. I don't know if you've seen the sentences, but they're absolutely nuts. [laughter] You know, it's stuff like, "Hold up those two cooked tea bags." and "Marty was a hearty man." and stuff like that. And really what those sentences are, is about is finding phonemic differences between the seven accents we were interested in, which were Belfast, Dublin, Glasgow, North East England, Bristol, Received Pronunciation which, sort of slash London and Essex. And those specific phonemes so, for example, Bath versus Bath. They spell out a real difference and delineate between accents from various regions.

NK: Ultimately, what did the research suggests? What did you find? Who is better at hearing and calling out a fake accent?

JG: So the first thing I'd say is that wasn't the main thing we were after. The main thing we were after was trying to tell how good people were across the board at telling whether someone was faking an accent, regardless of the listener or the speaker's native accent. And the mean was about 66 per cent. Two thirds of people were right. And that's fascinating, it speaks to the fact that regardless of who we are, regardless of what accent we're listening to, we're better than chance at telling whether someone's faking an accent. With regard to the second point, the really interesting thing was that people from further north in the UK and people from Northern Ireland, people from Dublin, were much better at detecting fakery of their own native accent than were people from further south. So received pronunciation speakers basically didn't do that well and it was hovering just above chance. Whereas when you get to Belfast it was up to about 85 per cent of the time, keeping in mind that these are 2 to 3 second clips. And if you're having a face to face conversation with a person, presumably be a great deal higher than it would be in just this kind of artificial scenario.

NK: Is it that those folks are, there's a unity there, there's a connection?

JG: I mean, our speculation is that it probably has something to do with degree of ethnic or cultural diversity that you have in these regions historically and presently. So London is a much more diverse place in terms of ethnicities and ethnic groups and so forth. Whereas in Belfast you have a little bit more what we call cultural homogeneity. And that might increase the pressure on people locally to sort of spot an out crew member.

NK: Before a conversation started in the introduction. Our listeners heard Dick Van Dyke's very controversial Cockney accent from the "Mary Poppins" film, which I'm sure you've come across in your life. He did apologize for it, but for a lot of people, of course, this isn't a joke. This is about heritage. This is about identity. As you're saying, there are evolutionary aspects of all of this. What does it say to you that there is such an emphasis on accents in the UK and Ireland?

JG: You know, I find it absolutely fascinating. When I moved here from the States, I couldn't believe how much emphasis people placed on how you speak and the judgements that people would make. And you know, you even see studies showing that the way a person speaks can really influence outcomes in their lives. Their likelihood of getting a job in an interview can be determined by how they speak to the interviewer. And that's both troubling and very interesting from an anthropological point of view.

NK: What do you think this research adds to that?

JG: I think it more, I wouldn't say confirms, but it goes a step towards confirming the idea that accents are a really important part of our evolutionary history. They're not an accident. And they inform something about our past that I think we should investigate further.

NK: Jonathan, thanks for your time.

JG: Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.

NK: Take care.

CH: Jonathan Goodman is a researcher at Cambridge University. He's in London.

[Music: Classical instrumental]

Part 2: Azerbaijan Prisoner, Boissonnault Resignation, Jimmy Lai Testimony, Wicked Kids

Azerbaijan Prisoner

Guest: Gubad Ibadoghlu

CH: The climate talks in Azerbaijan are coming down to the wire. But Gubad Ibadoghlu won't be enjoying any of the canapés or late night discussions. Mr. Ibadoghlu is a fellow at the London School of Economics who was arrested during a trip to see family in Azerbaijan in 2023. The government says it has him under house arrest as it investigates charges of counterfeiting and outlawed religious materials. But a number of U.S. and UK politicians, as well as human rights groups, have said Gubad Ibadoghlu. Detention has more to do with his long standing criticism of Azerbaijan's president and his record on corruption, oil exploitation and the environment. And now they say that he's being denied lifesaving heart surgery. We reached Gubad Ibadoghlu in Sumqayit, Azerbaijan.

NK: Gubad Ibadoghlu, how is your health right now?

GUBAD IBADOGHLU: According to the [inaudible] I have the [inaudible] that appears to have grown rapidly. This poses an imminent danger to my life and requires immediate evaluation by a cardiac surgeon with experience in treating the condition. But, you know, it's like the bomb in my heart. It could explode at any moment.

NK: Well, thank you for talking to us in the midst of what you're dealing with, Gubad. I wonder, as you, as the COP summit, you know, the world leaders started to congregate for that summit. I mean, were you hopeful that this gathering would be the thing, the moment that would lead to your release?

GI: You know, I don't have any expectation about my release and lifting the travel ban, also dropping the criminal charges. And I am still under two serious criminal charges. And if convicted, I am facing up to 17 years in prison. Because there is no legal process in my country. I am not talking about the [inaudible] process in my case. I think this is the politically motivated case and without the consent of the head of this state, they could never be made the right decision according to the legislation.

NK: And you're talking about President Ilham Aliyev. What do you think foreign leaders who are gathered there can do for you and the other political prisoners?

GI: Now, currently no one in my country, my state, care about their political prisoners. All of them care only the COP 29. And the regime uses this confidence to "greenwash" its image, presenting its leader of the climate space and all while jailing political prisoners. In it is borders and still in Azerbaijan, the repression is going up. And what will be situation after COP 29, most probably the government Azerbaijan became more authoritarian.

NK: What's your advice to world leaders who want to support you and help secure your release? How should they, how could they communicate with a president like the one you are describing?

GI: Yes, I think it should be a top level negotiation. And because here at the President Aliyev is law, he is above the law. And without his permission, never court will make a decision about me, about the political prisoners. As for the world leaders, as for the Canadian leaders, I remember nine months ago, the [inaudible] Centre for Human Rights filed a comprehensive such recommendation to the Global Affairs Canada. Sanction against those responsible for my arbitrary detention. But despite the urgency of the case and the compelling evidence presented, no action has been taken to date.

NK: Is it difficult to sit there in the situation that you're in, the health condition you're facing, you're dealing with knowing that that request for sanctions came. But there is this international conference.

GI: Of course, it's difficult for me to stay under their house arrest. And the same time I am under the control of the police and the special service. Twice a week I must go to the police department for the registration, I am academic and I should go to the University, to the library. But now I am under the heart wrenching restriction in my house arrest because constant surveillance with the cameras tracking my every move, my phone conversation being recording, and the unauthorized individuals monitoring my activities. Police cars, cameras are stationed around my house. I don't have that normal life in my house.

NK: Is it dangerous for you to be speaking with us?

GI: It's not safe for me to speak out with the people especially tonight. But it's time to share my views and also to share my problems with the media because I don't have any other alternative.

NK: Gubad, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

GI: Thank you so much, Nil. Thank you. Thank you.

CH: Gubad Ibadoghlu is a fellow at the London School of Economics. We reached him under house arrest in Sumqayit, Azerbaijan.

[Music: Whimsical instrumental]

Boissonnault Resignation

CH: Randy Boissonnault is taking some time to get some facts straight. The Edmonton MP had been Justin Trudeau's Employment Minister until today. That was in the face of a storm of questions from the Opposition about Mr. Boissonnault's evolving claims about his family's Indigenous identity and claims from a company that he co-owned. And then this afternoon the Prime Minister's office released a statement. The PM and the Minister had quote, unquote "agreed" that Mr. Boissonnault would be leaving Cabinet to, quote, "focus on clearing the allegations made against him", unquote. Here's conservative leader Pierre Poilievre in question period shortly afterwards.

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE POILIEVRE: This prime minister in nine years doubled the housing costs, doubled the debt, doubled gun crime, doubled food bank use. And up until a minute ago, he had a Minister with a double identity. [laughter] The Prime Minister knew the Minister was directing his business illegally from inside Cabinet. He knew the Minister had claimed there was another Randy when there was no other Randy, He knew that the Minister had falsely claimed to be Indigenous in order to take money away from real Indigenous people. And yet he stood by him up until yesterday. Why is it that he is always, he always stands up for corruption on his own side? [Applause]

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Edmonton Centre has stepped down from Cabinet to focus on clearing these allegations. Mr. Speaker the Leader of the Opposition talks about the importance of speaking up. The reality is his MPs are no longer voices for their communities. They are his voice in their communities. That's not how this place is supposed to work, Mr. Speaker. We are focussed on making sure that we're investing in Canadians, supporting them with the kinds of supports for housing, supports for dental, supports for child care that Canadians need. While all he offers is cuts and austerity. [Applause]

PIERRE POILIEVRE: Muzzling caucus members. This is the guy who fired the first Indigenous Attorney General because she refused to defend his corruption. She said, and I quote, "a Prime Minister committed to true reconciliation would have removed Randy and the other Randy from cabinet long ago. Instead, we have to get to watch white people play ancestry Wheel of Fortune. So shameful and extremely destructive". Why is it that he fired a real Indigenous minister for telling the truth while trying to keep in place a fake Indigenous minister who told falsehoods.

CH: Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre and Prime Minister Trudeau. And here's NDP MP Blake Desjarlais, who's Metis speaking to reporters outside the House.

SOUNDCLIP

BLAKE DESJARLAIS: This is a clear signal to pretend [Indigenous] the country. If you pretend to be Indigenous for the purpose of accessing Indigenous benefits, funding or prestige, you will be found out. We will find you. We will ensure that your reputation and the benefits you've received from pretending to be Indigenous are removed. It's unfair for so many Indigenous people that have done everything right. It's time that Indigenous people get more justice and this is the time to do it. Thank you so much. I'm happy to take questions.

REPORTER: Would you be okay if he stays on as MP like does the news of him resigning go as far as you'd want it to?

BLAKE DESJARLAIS: I think what's important right now, and talking about Mr. Boissonnault as a member of parliament, is understand that we don't have all the facts. That's the part of the issue here. The RCMP or the Edmonton police, as we're aware, are investigating his business dealings. Randy is the only one who knows the full truth here. He has to measure and reflect on his own conduct. And to answer that question of whether or not he has the integrity to stand as the Member of Parliament for Edmonton Centre. He'll have to speak to his constituents and discover whether or not he is fit and able to represent that riding. That's something that people at Edmonton Centre have to decide and that's something that Randy has to reflect on.

CH: Edmonton NDP MP Blake Desjarlais taking questions from reporters in Ottawa today.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Jimmy Lai Testimony

Guest: Sebastien Lai

CH: Jimmy Lai has never been one to mince his words. But for the past four years, we haven't heard many words from the Hong Kong media tycoon and pro-democracy activist. In December 2020, he was arrested under the city's national security law. But today, Mr. Lai spoke as he testified in his own trial. For the first time, he's charged with colluding with foreign forces and conspiring to publish seditious material, both of which he denies. The hearing comes a day after Hong Kong sentenced 45 opposition activists to up to 10 years in a separate national security case. Sebastian Lai is Jimmy Lai's son. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

NK: Sebastian, when we last spoke, you were quite clear you called this a, quote, "sham trial". Given that but also given that this was your father's chance finally to testify, how does today sit with you?

SEBASTIEN LAI: So my father has been in solitary confinement for the last four years, and he just recently turned 77. So his health has gotten much worse. And the thing is, the goal of solitary confinement is to essentially tell you that nobody cares about you, that you've defended freedom for nothing and that this is, this is how the rest of your life is going to be. Its aim to break you physically, but also mentally and spiritually. Now, unfortunately, my father's health has gotten much worse. But it was this bittersweet moment where he gives testimony and he is unbroken. They have not broken him mentally and they have not broken spiritually. So, you know, in that sense, I do feel some comfort. But, you know, as I mentioned last time, the trial shouldn't be happening anyway. But also, if he shouldn't have been arrested in the first place.

NK: I heard in your voice, you know, when you said he's unbroken. Is relief the right word? When you consider a day like today.

SL: I don't know if relief is the right word, but in terms of the very personal, very personally, is there is an element of relief. I mean, everybody has a father, a grandfather, someone that they know that is around the same age as my father. And I just sometimes, you know, imagine him in this little concrete box by himself not getting any natural light and just being in there for days and days on end. Not knowing when the day starts, not knowing when the day. It's incredibly heartbreaking. And, you know, you sometimes think obviously he's a very strong person, but you don't know what, I mean I don't know what the effect of four years of that has on a person. So, yeah, I mean, there is an element of relief of seeing that he is still, he is still himself. He has not lost his fight. He has not lost his spirit.

NK: Beijing, as you know, calls your father an agent and proxy of the anti-China forces. Today, he was questioned as well. You know, you talked about the newspaper but, he was questioned about meetings with various American and Taiwanese leaders and officials. And the prosecution alleges your father asked them to, quote, impose sanctions or blockade or engage in other hostile activities, unquote, against the Hong Kong and Chinese government. Your father testified about that as well and described what he believed those meetings were about and intended to do. Just tell our listeners a little bit about how he answered those questions.

SL: Yeah. So my father and again, since 30 years ago in every single interview advocated for peace and advocates, advocated for democracy in Hong Kong. The fact that they call it what he's doing is colluding or collusion essentially assumes for some nefarious benefit. Right. And so a good question for all the audience to ask themself is what is this, the nefarious benefits? In my father's case, why was he meeting with all these politicians publicly, by the way. And the nefarious, "nefarious" benefit there is democracy for Hong Kong.

NK: And he also testified that there was no request for action other than to speak out and say that you support. [SL: Yeah], Hong Kong and the people of Hong Kong.

SL: No. Exactly. That has been incredibly [inaudible] and all of these you know, all the allegations that turned out to be completely false. Even after arresting my father's colleagues and having them testify against my father before they can be sentenced and then having witnesses that testified against my father and allegations of them being tortured. Even after that, they found that all the allegations have been false. So I think it's a situation now where my father has been coherent and what he was saying for the last 30 years, every time he met with these [inaudible] official was to ask them for more support to speak out for the people of Hong Kong, for the democratic movements. And in fact, it's they have all these. Co-conspirators, "co-conspirators" in their trial. And many of these politicians have said that they'll happily give evidence, which is something that the government hasn't taken them on. So, you know, they're sort of writing, this, these allegations as they come along.

NK: In terms of international support. You know, more than 100 politicians from around the world, including Canadian politicians and British ones. Your father is a citizen of the UK. All those politicians shared an open letter calling for your father's immediate and unconditional release. China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs responded to that, saying that the country opposes interference and attempts to undermine Hong Kong's rule of law. So that letter in itself is considered interference. Do you think, given what your father is up against, that that kind of support is a double edged sword?

SL: Not at all. In the end, if you don't stand up for people, these people get disappeared, these people, then nobody ever hears about them anymore. So the support that we've been getting from all these countries. But you know, in relation to this interview with Canada, the most MPs that have been supporting my father has been nothing short of heroic. And we're incredibly grateful for that support.

NK: Do you think the incoming U.S. administration could have any impact or make a difference in your father's case at this point?

SL: The short answer is yes. We don't see this playing out in court. We see this as an international joint effort to secure his release. President Trump was actually asked in an interview about my father by Hugh Hewitt and President Trump said 100 per cent, I will get him out.

NK: What do you think he can do?

SL: I think the Hong Kong government is telling the rest of the world that they're still, you know, so open for business that they still have all these freedoms. And as a country like Canada, like the U.S., like Britain, who does have these freedoms, does have free speech [inaudible]. It is just putting pressure on them is saying that like you can't say that you have all these freedoms and have a thousand nine hundred political prisoners in jail. You can't have, say that you have all these freedoms and have Jimmy Lai, a man who stood in defence of all these freedoms, being locked up in a solitary cell left to die.

NK: Sebastian, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

SL: Thanks for having me.

CH: We reached Sebastian Lai in Washington, D.C. He's the son of Jimmy Lai, the Hong Kong pro-democracy media tycoon is facing charges under the city's national security laws and testified today.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

Wicked Kids

CH: In the pantheon of top grossing musicals, "Wicked" has ridden its broomstick right up near the top. Surpassed only by "The Lion King". For over 20 years now, the re-imagined story of two witches from "The Wizard of Oz" has been packing them into theatres. And this week, as you may know, if you've been awake at any point in the last six months, the much hyped film adaptation hit cinemas. It's very likely to be a huge hit given the presence of stars Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo. But for two high school students in Vancouver, it's really all about the music. Not only are Mela Pietropaolo and Alex MacIsaac, superfans of "Wicked", they're also actors and singers themselves. This morning they talked to the CBC about the new movie and gave a spellbinding performance of their own.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEX MACISAAC: Mela has been kind of mixed feelings about people being fake 'Wicked" fans, like since it's really popular right now. People are buying like stuff from the stores and stuff. She's like, they're not real. I'm the realist "Wicked" fan ever.

INTERVIEWER: Not those posers out there who are just the Johnnies-come-lately to "Wicked", I suppose.

MELA PIETROPAOLO: Yeah, they're just buying all the stuff because it's viral right now. But I've been a true "Wicked" fan before it was going to see a movie.

INTERVIEWER: I know that the two of you have sung a favourite from the musical before. You're prepared to do that for us now? A little bit if you can. [BOTH: Yep, yeah] Just before we begin, can you just tell us very quickly what the song's about?

MELA PIETROPAOLO: So it's kind of like Glinda and Elphaba's good bye song.

ALEX MACISAAC: I'm not going to cry now, I promise.

INTERVIEWER: Now, Mela Pietropaolo, Alex MacIsaac. Take it away.

[Girls sing For Good from Wicked]

CH: Wicked superfans, Mela Pietropaolo and Alex MacIsaac singing their hearts out on CBC Radio this morning in Vancouver.

[Music: Classical Instrumental]

Part 3: For the Record: Thien Writers Trust, Werner Herzog Prize, Arthur Frommer Obit., Kenora Park Ownership, Poo Emoji Shelter

For the Record: Thien Writers Trust

CH: The life of a writer can be financially challenging, to say the least. As Michael Redhill once put it, most authors surf on credit and goodwill, and he should know. The Toronto author famously shared that he had just 411 dollars in his bank account before he won the one hundred thousand dollar Giller Prize in 2017. So it's safe to say that literary awards season provides a substantial boon to authors. But last night, when the Writers Trust of Canada was handing out prizes, one recipient decided to pay it forward and back. After winning the 25 thousand dollar Writers Trust Engle Findlay Award, Madeleine Thien announced that she would be donating it to several organizations, including one run by the Writers Trust. The decision was straightforward, but she said she struggled to write a speech. So addressing the audience at last night's gala Ms. Thien began with a poem. For the record, here she is with William Stafford's "Being a Person".

SOUNDCLIP

MADELEINE THIEN: Be a person here. Stand by the river. Invoke the owls. Invoke winter, then spring. Let any season that wants to come here make its own call. After that sound goes away. Wait. A slow bubble rises through the earth and begins to include sky, stars, all space, even the outracing expanding thought. Come back and hear the little sound again. Suddenly this dream you are having matches everyone's dream and the result is the world. If a different call came, there wouldn't be any world. Or you or the river or the owls calling. How you stand here is important. How you listen for the next things to happen, how you breathe. For the past seven years, I have been teaching full time. And during this period, I managed to save money to support my writing so that this very year, the year I turned 50, I could face the financial uncertainty of leaving that job, which I did in June. [Applause] Therefore, this beautiful prize has given me another kind of gift the ability to return the prize money to the world. I will be donating it in its entirety. One part will go to the Woodcock Fund, which supports Canadian writers in need when they face emergencies. This fund, managed by the Writers Trust and aided by writers who volunteer their time, has long been a quiet, devoted, faithful lifeline for writers in our country. A second part will go to the Palestine Children's Relief Fund, and the third part will go to the Lebanese Red Cross. I want to make this donation in the name of my beloved friend, Y-Dang Troeung. Her parents and two brothers survived the carpet bombing of Cambodia by U.S. planes, which was a war crime. They survived the Cambodian genocide. They survived a manmade famine. And their beloved Y-Dang was born in a refugee camp in 1980. She became a professor, a teacher, a mother, a writer, the author of the incredible books "Refugee Lifeworlds" and "Landbridge". And in 2022, she passed away from pancreatic cancer at the age of 42. Heavy is the root of light, as the old philosophers say. How we stand here is important, how we breathe. Thank you. [Applause]

CH: For the record, that was author Madeleine Thien speaking after winning the 25 thousand dollar Writers Trust Engle Findlay Award last night.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Werner Herzog Prize

CH: As you can probably surmise, this is not a man who sees the world or chickens the way most people do. And it doesn't just make for interesting quotes. It also makes for interesting films. The kinds of films that don't just inspire new ways of thinking, but also new generations of filmmakers. Among them is Harley Chamandy, the 25 year old is the director of "Allen Sunshine". That film, shot in Quebec's eastern townships, has just been awarded the 2024 Werner Herzog Film Award. But it turns out Mr. Chamandy's relationship with the German director is not new. The pair actually go way back, which, according to Mr. Chamandy, makes the prize even sweeter.

SOUNDCLIP

HARLEY CHAMANDY: Werner Herzog is like my favourite filmmaker of all time, and when I was 17 years old, I was lucky enough to be chosen out of 55 filmmakers to go to Cuba with Werner Herzog, which is crazy. I had to make a short film in 10 days using the locals of the small town of San Antonio de Los Banos. I knew nothing of Spanish, right? And so I had this kind of imposter syndrome being the 17 year old kid. And I made this film. And 10 days later he shook my hand and said, You made a film just as good as anyone else that there was here. And I kind of like came back to Montreal, made my first official short film right after that, and then everything kind of snowballed from there. But we didn't have any more contact after that. And so to receive an email five years later or six years later, whatever it's been from Werner Herzog himself, saying he wanted to award me was honestly like a dream come true. And I'm going to Germany in like two weeks from now to do a Q&A with Werner Herzog, which is like the craziest thing ever for me. So I'm really humbled and grateful, but I just want to add, the film wouldn't be possible without my mom, who's here, who edited the film, produced the film. She was also my First A.D. So we have a really strong relationship. And, you know, I think that when you work with someone that you love, that a lot of the possibilities are kind of endless, you know?

SABRINA MARANDOLA: Yeah, Actually, let's bring your mom into the conversation here. Chantal, was it a no brainer to join your son on this?

CHANTAL CHAMANDY: Yeah, actually, it was. He's been making films since he was very little. So I produced his first one, which was when he was like 15 years old, you know. So he always had a love of film. He was a child actor. And, you know, of course it's a really tough industry. But, you know, he was really, he really wanted to do this like he had it in his, you know, in his blood. So cool enough that my son wants to work with me. That was already like, you know, as you I'm sure you know, like that's a task of its own. So I've been pretty lucky.

SABRINA MARANDOLA: Well, and you have experience in the entertainment industry as well, because you've worked as a singer, as an actor as well. Did you have some advice for Harley?

CHANTAL CHAMANDY: Yeah, just, you know what, just don't listen to anybody and just keep at it. Because at the end of the day, you know, it's a very roller coaster ride. And if you can't handle the lows, then it's going to be tough. So you have to have thick skin and you just have to keep going and believe in what you do. So my hope for him as a mom and as a person who's working with them as a partner, is just go as far as you want to go. And if the dream is really, you know, huge, then go for it. And if you decide you want to do something else, that's all good too.

CH: Filmmaker Harley Chamandy and his mother and producer Chantal Chamandy speaking to Sabrina Marandola, host of Let's Go on CBC Montreal.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Arthur Frommer Obit.

Guest: Pauline Frommer

CH: These days, there are altogether too many tips and tricks for travelling across Europe on the cheap or steering clear of tourist traps. But before the modern superabundance of books and blogs and TikToks, there was Arthur Frommer. In 1957, he self-published the guidebook "Europe on 5 Dollars a Day". And that one book essentially invented budget travel by opening up a world that had previously been predominantly for the rich. Arthur Frommer died on Monday. He was 95. After his first title took off, he built an empire of guidebooks and package tours and hotels. And it all hinged on the concept he had founded in that first book that travelling wasn't about sightseeing but experiencing. Midday host Peter Downey asked Mr. Frommer about that in 1988. On a bench in Toronto.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER DOWNEY: You've really had it with the kind of let's go to the Eiffel Tower or the Empire State Building, that kind of vacation.

ARTHUR FROMMER: I think that that kind of vacation doesn't warrant the effort anymore. We tend to fling ourselves thousands of miles just to look at a dead, lifeless monument. Well, we could have looked at that monument on the pages of a picture book.

PETER DOWNEY: It's not the same as being there. Arthur, there's still something to be said for that.

ARTHUR FROMMER: Well, it's a little better, but I don't think it warrants a trip of thousands and thousands of miles to look at the Golden Gate Bridge, to look at the tomb of Napoleon. To me, travel is no longer worth the effort unless it is associated with ideas and people, unless it stretches your horizons, unless it challenges your most cherished thoughts, unless it makes you into a somewhat different person than you were when you began.

CH: Pauline Frommer is Arthur Frommer's daughter. She now runs the Frommer business. We reached her in New York City.

NK: Pauline, is that the kind of conversation you heard around your dinner table over and over again growing up?

PAULINE FROMMER: Absolutely. My father felt very deeply that travel could be an instrument for good in the world, that travel could bridge divides between nations and peoples. And he you know, he loved going to museums. He loved sightseeing. But he always felt that the best travel experiences involved a conversation with a local who wasn't the concierge with an exchange of ideas. And I totally agree. And that's kind of what our guidebooks are based on and still tout today.

NK: Well, even if someone is hearing that clip for the first time, I think it's clear that that's how many, if not most people still travel today. So did he feel like he was ahead of his time in a way, or starting something?

PF: Oh yeah. He was fully ahead of his time. He had been talking about going in the off season since the 1980s, since the 1990s. He always felt that if you just go to see what is dead by which I mean monuments, by which I mean things built long ago, you're missing out that the joy of travel comes in meeting people and having a human connection and learning about new ideas and current political climates in the places you were visiting.

NK: In the book, "Europe on 5 Dollars a Day", he writes, "This is a book for American tourists who a. own no oil wells in Texas, b. are unrelated to the Aga Khan, c. have never struck it rich in Las Vegas and who still want to enjoy a wonderful European vacation". What triggered that, this idea in him. He clearly loved travel. But this idea of immersing yourself in the culture and then spreading that so that more and more Americans thought about travelling that way, what brought that idea to his mind?

PF: It was a total fluke. He was drafted into the army during the Korean War, but because of his language skills, he was the son of immigrants from Russia and Austria. Instead of being sent to Korea, he was sent to Germany, where on a serviceman's salary, he had very little money. He started travelling all around. And you have to remember in those days, the only people who went to Europe went on a grand tour and spent a lot of money. And, you know, Europe was still in rubble from World War Two at that time. There was a deep fear that if you didn't spend a lot of money, you could be putting yourself in danger. And he saw with his own eyes that, that was garbage. And so he wrote his first books to democratize travel, to tell middle class, lower middle class and poorer people that you don't have to be fabulously wealthy to expand your horizons and travel the world and that you don't miss out by staying in a cheaper place where you may share a bathroom. Or by eating in a restaurant where the locals go rather than the tourists. He actually felt that when you travelled on a budget, you saw more and had a better experience. And so that was the heart and soul of "Europe on 5 Dollars a Day". And the Frommer guides are still around. We've sold 75 million books over the decades. And we still try and help our readers not waste money because who wants to waste money? [NK: Especially in this economy] really it's not about the money it's about the experience.

NK: Your father had more than a few rules: never travel first class, pack lightly, take a room without a bath. Not sure about that one. Eat in restaurants patronized by locals, engage in local conversations, study maps, take public transportation. Did you travel like that growing up?

PF: We never went first class. He was talking about sustainable travel decades before anyone else was and talking about supporting local businesses like small family owned restaurants and shops. He was so far ahead of his time on so many fronts.

NK: It is a lot more expensive to travel, as you know now, just flights, particularly after the pandemic, people are still travelling. There are budget travellers out there certainly, but five dollars in 1957. If our team is math is correct. Thank goodness they did it instead of me. But we're talking just under 57 dollars U.S. So if, it can feel impossible for people to travel the way they want, well, even on a budget, do you feel that it is still possible?

PF: Oh, it's totally still possible, thanks to the sharing economy, actually, and the Internet. There are websites out there like Globalfreeloaders.com and CouchSurfing, which will hook you up with locals who love meeting travellers and will put you up for free. My own daughter went to Japan between her senior year of high school and college. And did something called Work Away, where she did several hours of work every day in return for room and board, and she didn't have to get a visa, work visa because she wasn't being paid. But she was able to travel in Japan for three months on virtually nothing. So there definitely are ways to save money when you travel today. Absolutely. And on the airfare front, it looks like things are easing out. It looks like prices are going slightly down.

NK: Okay. Travellers will be excited to hear that. Just personally, Pauline, I know this is a difficult time for you and your family, so I do appreciate you making time for us. What do you want people to know about what he was like as a father?

PF: Oh my. He was the very best father. He once said to me, he did a book group with my dear stepmother, and they read King Lear. And he said to me afterwards, everybody in my book group was talking about the terrible things their fathers had said to them and done. And all I could think of was how lucky you are to have me as a father. [laughter] And we both laughed. But he was a truth teller. It was absolutely true. He brought me into this business when we were young. He made up stories for me every night at bedtime. He was a an imaginative, funny, genuinely kind person. And my life is poorer without him.

NK: Oh, Pauline. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Please take care.

PF: Thank you. Thank you.

CH: Pauline Frommer is Arthur Frommer's daughter. We reached her in New York City. Arthur Frommer, the author of the enormously influential 1957 guidebook, "Europe on 5 Dollars a Day", died on Monday. He was 95.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Kenora Park Ownership

CH: For thousands of years what is now Anicinabe Park in Kenora, Ontario has been used by First Nations people. For the last 60 years the city of Kenora has owned and operated that park, and now three First Nations are taking the government to court for control. This week Wauzhushk Onigum Nation, Niisaachewan Anishinaabe Nation and Washagamis Bay First Nation filed a claim with Ontario Superior Court in the hopes of reclaiming the space. Chris Skead is the chief of Wauzhushk Onigum Nation.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS SKEAD: We of the nations. We have used Anicinabe Park for centuries, since time immemorial, and where the park is located is just across from my community, across the lake. And what we had there was a former residential school that was in Wauzhushk Onigum, and its most current name was St. Mary's, and it was in operations from 1897 to 1972. So a lot of children have come and gone that attended St. Mary's Residential School and if they were lucky enough to survive, to go on and have children, that, you know, there was an area that was deemed as safe for people and then that was Anicinabe Park. And in 1929, Anicinabe Park was set aside for the nation's exclusive use. And in the 1950s, Kenora, Canada, conspired to sell the land so that the city could build the park. And Canada sold the lands to Kenora illegally. It did not have the nation's consent. And filing this claim, it shows that 50 years later, reconciliation has failed. And that seems to be the key word that a lot of the Crowns bandy around. So for three years we have met with the city of Kenora and asked them to return the land and they have refused. Now our only option is a legal action. And reclaiming the land is not about excluding people. We are committed to creating a space for everyone to share the land, but it must be returned first and foremost. And this claim can still be an opportunity for reconciliation.

CH: That was Chief Chris Skead of the Wauzhushk Onigum Nation. Speaking with the CBC's Sarah Law.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Poo Emoji Shelter

Guest: Mark Antony Haden Ford

CH: The Medmerry Nature Reserve in England is a beautiful place to commune with the natural world. There are birds and walking trails and panoramic views. As well, of course, as an abundance of one of the most natural phenomena of all poop. In fact, a giant one was just unveiled last week, depending who you ask. A husband and wife artistic team who go by the name "Two Circles Designs" have created a woven willow installation that's based on a sea snail. It's called the Periwinkle Shelter, and it does resemble the spiral shell of a sea snail, but it also resembles the spiral design of poop emoji. We reached artist Mark Antony Haden Ford in West Sussex, England.

NK: Mark, I know you and your wife worked a long time on this, a couple of months. But given what people are saying, was there any point in that process or even at the end of the process that you both took a step back, looked at what you made and thought, this looks like something else? This doesn't look like what we intended.

MARK ANTONY HADEN FORD: We as artists, we don't court controversy and actually at no point, at no point did we think it was anything other than a periwinkle sculpture. I mean, spirals occur in nature, right? So it is, it can be interpreted as another thing, you know.

NK: So this isn't an elaborate joke. You're not pranking the British public?

MAHF: No, no. This this was an intentional sculpture. It was commissioned by the local government as a celebration of the nature reserve, which is now 10 years old, with two other installations which have no controversy around them until once a sound piece and once a photography piece and ours is a sculptural piece, There's no shelter at all. It's very exposed section of coastline. And so it seemed to make sense to have something you could sit inside. And it, there is windows, wood frame views. When you're inside it, you don't think it's not a periwinkle. There's lots of indications to say it is.

NK: I think for a lot of people it's the top half, the swirl, if you will, and the colour. So did you ever think maybe to do it the shade of green that the grass is or you know, not brown.

MAHF: Well the willow will fade. Yeah the willow, some of the willow is fresh so it is actually green at the moment, but it will all fade to an orange brown. [NK: Okay.] We could have sprayed the material wise or something. We talked about that. Maybe more like a shell itself. Yeah. However, we're environmental artists, so we want to keep it as natural as possible, as, as it also is a nature reserve. So we wanted to not harm things in any way by painting it.

NK: Understood. Tell our listeners a little bit about the periwinkle itself, what you intended this to be based on before everyone got their opinions in.

MAHF: Sure. Sure. The inspiration for the sculpture comes from the archaeological excavations of the Medmerry site. Over 10 years ago evidence was discovered of like, kettles, which is like a V-shaped woven willow kettle, which will funnel fish in. And also when they were digging, they found medieval woven willow baskets. And at the very bottom there were these winkle and cockle shells. So we wanted to combine all of those things, including the Bronze Age barrow and Bronze Age settlement round houses, evidence for that. So it seemed to make sense that it would be made of willow, it would be some sort of shelter and it would be the shape of a periwinkle. Now it is you know, what you're, what you're saying and what other people are saying in the media that it was deliberate. We intended it to be a periwinkle, certainly.

NK: I, I see a snail shell. I see snail. I really do. So but maybe I'm in the minority. I'm with you on this. But you know what folks have been saying some, some have laughed. Some of written on social media, well, one person in particular "Good heavens, what was the size of the creature that produced that", unquote. What do you say to those who aren't seeing that snail?

MAHF: I think it's great, actually, that people can see what they want to see. And I invite anyone to well, not know your listeners in Canada unless they're coming specially to the, all the way over to the UK to have a look, to sit inside and make their own decision. I've been working with my wife for 20 years, weaving sculptures all over the world. In fact, we were in Canada last month and we wove a tetrapodicus -- which was a mythical beast in the forest just outside Montreal. And some people said it looked like a dinosaur. Some people said it looked like a bear. It was a tetrapodicus so, similar to that. And we built, we did a 12 metre moustache on the side of an opera house a few years ago, and some people said it looked like two whales kissing. So I'm used to the ambiguity of things being interpreted a different way.

NK: Is there power in that? I know you said you don't create things to be controversial, but it sounds like maybe you do a little bit.

MAHF: Maybe there's a little bit of cheekiness. Yeah, maybe there's you know, people can interpret it the way they want, but it's up to them to make up their own minds.

NK: Is there a message you want people to take away from the shelter in the end?

MAHF: Well, the installation is only there for three years. It's temporary. A lot of sculpture, environmental sculpture, land art is very temporary and ephemeral. It will, the willow will decay and we will dismantle it. But somebody mentioned that there's a message about marine pollution and certainly water pollution with, where, human waste goes into the sea and the oceans. That's certainly what this is not about. But if people want to draw parallels with that and feel empowered by that, then that's great.

NK: Does any of the criticism or commentary or laughs you've both received for this installation, is it informing what you're weaving next?

MAHF: No, no. I think we'll stay away from sculptures which can be so easily misinterpreted.

NK: All right.

MAHF: Unless it's deliberate, like we're trying to make a point. Yes.

NK: I see a snail. Mark, thank you.

MAHF: Thank you.

CH: That was artist Mark Antony Haden Ford in West Sussex, England.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

The AIH Transcript For November 20, 2024

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