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The AIH Transcript for October 23, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Speechless. Since that private caucus meeting where Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was urged to step down, Liberal MP. I've been keeping the peace by holding their peace.

CH: Stopped short. Israel's attacks on northern Gaza interrupt the final phase of a polio vaccination campaign for children. One aid worker says a ceasefire is crucial or the disease will spread.

NK: Head held high. Gisèle Pélicot survived years of sexual assaults carried out and coordinated by her ex-husband. Today she spoke directly to him and the rest of the accused and made it clear where the shame should lie.

CH: Charging forward. American prosecutors charge an official with Iran's Revolutionary Guard in a plot to kill journalist Masih Alinejad. She tells us threats won't stop her from speaking out.

NK: She had half a mind to scan her whole mind. A researcher was so frustrated by the lack of data on women that she scanned her own brain 75 times to create new data all scientists can use.

CH: And that explains why everyone was smelling it so hard. The bestselling pizza at a restaurant in Dusseldorf turns out to have a secret ingredient hidden underneath it cocaine. As It Happens the Wednesday edition. Radio that calls that below blow.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Liberal Caucus, Masih Alinejad Assassination Plot, Women's Brain Researcher, Cocaine Pizza

Liberal Caucus

Guest: Lori Turnbull

CH: After more than three hours behind closed doors, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau emerged with a bombshell revelation. The Liberal Party is strong and united. It's not a bombshell, but it's all we've got so far. As you probably heard, the Liberal caucus met today to talk about Mr. Trudeau's future. 24 MPs are now confirmed to have signed a letter urging the Prime Minister to rethink his decision to stay on as leader. And sources tell the CBC that some of them took to the mic in today's meeting to do that, urging vocally because national polls suggest the Liberals are heading toward a crushing defeat by Pierre Poilievre and the Conservatives. But since the doors reopened this afternoon, there's been no news on what will happen next. Lori Turnbull is a political analyst at Dalhousie University. We reached her in Ottawa.

NK: Lori, at the end of this day, nothing has really changed for Prime Minister Trudeau. Is that a good thing at this point for him?

LORI TURNBULL: Well, I mean, I think in the sense that he didn't have a big blow-out today at this point anyway, that spilled out of the caucus room. Whatever was said remains in the caucus room at this point. Nobody has leaked anything. There has been some general messaging around. We were all one big happy family. And then he goes into question period and the Liberals are just all cheering for him. And, you know, like there is this sense from the party that there's unity now.

NK: And that is what we heard a lot of today, that that they're united. This was a candid conversation. But we're also getting signals that it did get tense in there, at least honest. Immigration Minister Marc Miller alluded to that earlier today. Here's what he told reporters.

SOUNDCLIP

MARC MILLER: I respect the hell out of my colleagues, particularly those that are brave and stand up and say things to his face. I think that was sort of a concern out of caucus unity. You know, fundamentally, this is something I think has been simmering for some time and it's important for people to get it out. You know, this isn't a code red situation and the Prime Minister can sure as hell handle the truth.

NK: Do you think Lori, respectful conversation, candid as it may have been, is likely ultimately to reassure all of those MPs that they won't lose their jobs if and when an election is called.

LT: Well, I mean, I don't think that ultimately they're going to have true reassurance on that until the next election when they know. I think that MPs are hearing very clearly from some constituents that they would love to vote for them. They're just not going to vote for Justin Trudeau. And someone like Sean Casey from Charlottetown has been very forthcoming about that.

NK: Yeah. We had him on our show as well.

LT: Exactly, right. That like people are putting it to him. We're not going to support you if it's, if Trudeau is still there. So, it's like, you know, confronting him with that very kind of zero sum kind of calculation. Now, I think for today, we can hear, even in Minister Miller's tone, very different from the comments he made, you know, a day or two ago where he says, hey, this is all garbage. Like, well, no, it's not actually, it's not garbage. Caucus members are saying you're not happy. And as much as leaders, sometimes they come across as being very much in control of things. They're not afraid to use their power. They're not afraid of that carrot and stick approach. All the leaders do it. But at the end of the day, they need the caucus members in order to survive. They can't be there in a legitimate way without the caucus members. And if you push the caucus too far, you're going to hear it. And so, I think that's what we've, that's probably what we saw today, even though we didn't see it with our own eyes, we couldn't see through the caucus doors. We will see what happens in the coming days, whether this sort of appeasement is just short term, while the detractors regroup or if something meaningful happened that actually made them change their mind.

NK: We were hoping to speak with members of the caucus today. We requested their presence on our show. None agreed. We can say, though, that the chief political correspondent for CBC News, Rosemary Barton, says she received a text from inside that meeting. And perhaps not surprisingly, MPs were being told not to speak with the media about what was discussed. So, given what's happened leading up to this caucus meeting, what does it signal to you that the MPs, including ones who, you know, have spoken out against Mr. Trudeau, appear to be listening now?

LT: Something must have been promised. Something must have happened. Not just, you know, everybody gets to air their grievances. And then the prime minister says, yes, I hear you and thanks very much. I don't... It must not have been just that there must have been something that he said, I am going to change the cabinet. I am going to change the plan forward. Something you know, and who knows what he said. There could have been something else along the lines of, Hey, if you don't see improvement in the polls in two months, I'll quit. Something because now they are giving more. You know, they're letting him kind of be in charge again, whereas yesterday they weren't doing that. So, something must have happened.

NK: CBC News is also reporting the sources are telling them, our colleagues there, saying sources are telling them that this letter, signed by 24 MPs, was read aloud in the meeting. This is the letter. You know, with all of the signatories we've been reporting on that it did give an ultimatum and a date for Trudeau to step down by October 28th, as we've reported before. As we know, they cannot force him to go. It is his decision and his decision alone. So, what do you think will actually happen on October 29th?

LT: We shall see. I wonder if there'll be a cabinet shuffle by then or wonder is this going to be talk of that? I wonder if he will release some kind of a plan by then. And that was also, it strikes me, if my memory serves around that time, a significant date for the Bloc Quebecois as well. Right. Like this, as much as this is a caucus conversation, there's also the rest of the drama going on in parliament more broadly because this is a minority government. And so, they’re still dealing with the runway about how much time they have left as a party, as a government. Even if the Prime Minister wasn't in this hot water with his own caucus.

NK: We were speaking about Sean Casey, the P.E.I. MP earlier in our conversation, he said in our convo, in our interview last week that history will be kind to Prime Minister Trudeau, that his legacy is secure, but that it is, in his view, the best interest of the party, the country, even his family, to move on. Again, that's from Liberal MP Sean Casey. Do you think anything would change the Prime Minister's mind?

LT: I think that in Justin Trudeau's mind he is going to go into the next election as the leader of the Liberal Party and I think he believes he will win it. I think he thinks that the people who are supporting Pierre Poilievre, at least some of them, are going to start to change their minds about that. I think that Prime Minister Trudeau feels that in the days and weeks and months in advance of the next election, there will be a kind of reconsideration or perhaps a fear of what could happen. If Pierre Poilievre becomes prime minister. I think he's trusting that people's, people will sour on Poilievre. And so, I think he sees a path for himself. And so, for him to step away from that, I think in his own mind, he has to have some reason that made that path no longer tenable. And I don't know what that would be. I mean, you look at the polls, the Conservatives are 20 points ahead. Is that not enough to say, hey, this might not be a good path? But I think the prime minister believes that he still has a path to victory at this point. So, again, for him to change his mind, for him to step away now, something about that calculation would have to shift.

NK: Lori, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

LT: Thank you, too. Thank you for having me.

CH: Lori Turnbull is a political science professor at Dalhousie University. She's an Ottawa.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Masih Alinejad Assassination Plot

Guest: Masih Alinejad

CH: It's now been two years since U.S. officials stopped what they believe was a plot to kill Iranian-American journalist and human rights activist Masih Alinejad on American soil. And now they've laid charges against an Iranian official they believe was involved. The indictment unsealed yesterday says that federal prosecutors have charged a senior official in Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard in the foiled assassination attempt. Three other men who prosecutors believe are members of an Iranian intelligence network have also been charged. We reached Masih Alinejad in Ottawa.

NK: Masih, do these new charges make you feel safer?

MASIH ALINEJAD: Well, safe. I mean, the word safe is still a luxury for those of us who dare to challenge the Islamic Republic. But I have to say, I feel safe under the protection of the FBI, the law enforcement in America, because I strongly believe they take the threats, assassination plot, transnational repression very seriously. But at the same time, I have to watch over my shoulder when I go out because I don't want to die. I want to be alive and see the end of this terrorist regime in Iran.

NK: You've said before that you believed the Islamic Revolutionary Guards were responsible for this attempt on your life. What have prosecutors told you about Ruhollah Bazghandi and the alleged plot against you?

MA: That's true, because if you remember, the FBI first arrested a man with a loaded gun, with AK 47 in front of my house alongside three other men, but all of them were part of the criminal syndicate of Eastern Europe. But I remember that time I was insisting and saying, this is the Revolutionary Guards but we didn't have any proof. So now, when I had a meeting with the FBI and people from the Department of Justice in New York, they told me that now they found the details of the members of Revolutionary Guards being directly involved, ordering the man with AK 47 to kill me. So, yeah, Ruhollah Bazghandi is a notorious general, one of the top like senior members of Revolutionary Guards, who is very well known on terrorism activities, specially he's in charge of arresting dual national citizens. Let's not forget Zahra Kazemi, Iranian Canadian journalist who got killed in the hands of the Islamic Republic's Ruhollah Bazghandi was in charge of targeting dual national citizens and the terrorists activities beyond Iran's border.

NK: You have been a vocal critic of Iran and its treatment of women in particular for quite some time. Do you think that this alleged plot stems from one particular statement or incident, or was it targeting your activism overall?

MA: To be honest, I don't think that they are just targeting me. They are really scared of women. Since I launched my campaign against compulsory veiling, they started to hate me, to target me because they know that when I encouraged women 10 years ago to remove their hijab, they knew that this is not going to end there. That is going to end the Islamic Republic. So basically, when they see a woman raise up, they know that this is going to mobilize the whole society so that make them so angry because they are scared of women.

NK: Last week, there was another indictment unsealed by U.S. officials. This was about another failed assassination attempt, allegations around that in which a man, authorities believe to be an Indian intelligence officer, allegedly tried to arrange the murder of a Sikh activist in New York. When you hear other cases like that one and yours, what does it say to you about what is happening? That activists...

MA: Honestly, it makes me angry. It makes me angry because that actually shows you how the [inaudible] are copying each other, following each other's path, using the same tactics, using criminals, using terrorists to do their dirty jobs beyond their own borders. Bazghandi and his gang of killers are not alone. From Russia to China to North Korea. As you mentioned now India, many, many are now using transnational repression as a tool not only to target their own dissidents, but also to target the national security of Canada, of America, the freedom of the speech of the West. And that is an alarm for democratic countries to be as united as dictators to stop the act of terrorism on their own soil, to protect their citizens.

NK: It hasn't silenced you, certainly but you mentioned the protection that you have. How has your life changed?

MA: My life is absolutely now upside down. It has been three years. I don't have any place to call it home for myself and my beloved husband. Just a few weeks ago, my husband and I were rejected by co-op members, you know, an apartment that we were trying to buy because of the fear of assassination. I mean, who is going to share a building with someone being followed by killers? But at the same time, my heroes are Iranian women. The mothers whose children got killed. But they are still resisting and fighting the Iranian regime. So, I'm not going to give up. I mean, I am only 45 kilos not carrying any weapons, but they are scared of me. They're scared of women. So that gives me hope.

NK: The four men facing charges, the four men from Iran are they haven't been caught, as you know. Do you think you will ever see them in a courtroom?

MA: I want to see them. I want to see them. The public trial is going to be March next year. But I have to tell you that it is very enjoyable after years of suffering from Revolutionary Guards to see they're being humiliated, to see their embarrassment. You know, women in my country, they're facing the same killers every day. They don't have any protection. So, this is an opportunity for me to be louder, to see them accountable and call on all democratic countries to follow the path of the law enforcement in America and to stop the Revolutionary Guards terrorist activities beyond their own borders.

NK: Masih, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MA: Of course. Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Masih Alinejad is a human rights activist. She's in Ottawa.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Women's Brain Researcher

Guest: Carina Heller

CH: Carina Heller has found a creative way to donate her brain to science while she's still using it. Ms. Heller is a postdoctoral research fellow in neuroscience at the University of Minnesota. Like many of her colleagues interested in studying female brains, she found herself hamstrung by a dearth of data on women's health. It's a problem a small group of researchers have grown so frustrated with that they've begun to tackle it head on by using their own heads. In Ms. Heller's case, that meant climbing into an MRI 75 times over the course of a year to track her own brain. The study, which is still in its early stages, looks at the effects of the menstrual cycle on the brain with and without oral contraceptives. We reached Carina Heller in Minneapolis.

NK: Carina, up early in the morning, no coffee, as I understand it. Then you have to lie perfectly still for more than an hour without falling asleep. Oh, and yes, you happen to be lying in an MRI. How did you manage to do that for 75 times?

CARINA HELLER: It was actually not that hard, to be honest, because I knew what I was doing it for. So, it was all really exciting.

NK: So, you're not claustrophobic is what you're saying.

CARINA HELLER: Right. [Laughter]

NK: You don't have a fear of tight spaces. Let's talk about why you're doing this. You don't just, obviously you love science, but you don't just love lying in an MRI. You've done this because you and many others know there is a giant gap in the available data and studies on women's brains in particular. Just illustrate for our listeners what that gap is like. How bad is this situation?

CARINA HELLER: So, when you look at on PubMed, this is where you can find all the scientific studies that are published. And if you just look for the keywords, oral contraceptives and mental health, oral contraceptives and brain and MRI, there are just about like 300 papers published at the moment. And this is a very small number, giving the fact that oral contraceptives or hormonal contraceptives are available since the 1960s. And this is what got me interested in this research.

NK: And specifically, are looking at changes in the brain during the menstrual cycle and the effects of oral contraceptives. And just, I just do want to acknowledge what you said a moment ago. It's fascinating, but also infuriating when you think about the kinds of medications we're talking about and the needs that women have. Specifically, this, though, during the menstrual cycle and the use of oral contraceptives. Why did you want to do this for that?

CARINA HELLER: It's the most prescribed birth control worldwide. It's like worldwide, 150 million women or females use this kind of birth control. So, this was like a personal matter for me to investigate this topic. And also, just because we know that some women develop symptoms of depression and anxiety using oral contraceptives, some women thrive using this kind of medication. And I was just curious why this happens for some individuals and for some it doesn't.

NK: It's true that many aspects of women's health are chronically understudied. It is still surprising, perhaps to people that researchers like yourself are resorting to using your own bodies to try to fill in the gap, actually being part of the research. What does it say to you that that is necessary still at this point?

CARINA HELLER: Yeah. Women and females have always been considered to be just the smaller version of a male body. So, the male body has always been the norm when it comes to biomedical research. And we just have to say that, well, women and females are just not smaller versions. And just because the research is so small and there are so little published, it's just easier for us to be like the participant ourselves.

NK: You're planning to make the dataset, these scans of your own brain openly available to other researchers as well so it could help them in addition to being part of your own research. Was that something you knew you wanted to do right at the start?

CARINA HELLER: Yes, definitely. So, we have this really rich data set and we are just like exploring the data. And there is just, there are so many possibilities and so many different ways of how this data can be analyzed, especially like when it comes to imaging. You can look at connectivity, you can look at structural changes and different people have different ideas of how to analyze the data. And that's why I want to make it open, available or openly available. So, because other people have different ideas and then we can move this field forward, I would say faster. As if I would just do this all by myself, then it would, then it would take like 15 to 20 years to explore the data and the depth that I would want it to. And that was the reason to make this data openly available.

NK: I know you've said you believe that at this point you're the most scanned woman ever. We haven't been able to independently verify that, but has it been worth it so far?

CARINA HELLER: Yes, definitely. It was also, of course, like moving the field forward is one big argument, pro argument to do it. And also, just for me as a person, an experience. It was a really, really good experience for me and also everyone who was involved in the study. And once we like had our last MRI session, we were actually kind of sad that it was over.

NK: It became part of your daily routine. I wonder, though, in terms of moving the field forward, it can't just be you getting scans 75 times and others doing similar things, other women and other researchers, for sure, trying to push this forward. But what else is it going to take to close this gap? I mean, it's egregious, really.

CARINA HELLER: Yeah. It takes other people also to get interested in this field of research to look for changes in the brain when it comes to hormonal contraception use. And also, it takes the funding agencies also to fund this kind of research. And I think that was also a bit lack in the recent years, I would say.

NK: Carina, I appreciate your time and thank you for your service.

CARINA HELLER: Thank you.

CH: Carina Heller is a postdoctoral research fellow at the University of Minnesota. She's in Minneapolis.

[Music: Whimsical instrumental]

Cocaine Pizza

SOUNDCLIP

LAUFEY SIF LARUSDOTTIR: So, we have a sheep head that has been boiled in a stout beer made in our brewery, and we put it on top of arugula grass bed on the pizza so that the sheep kind of lays there like it would lay on a field in a field of grass.

CH: From January of 2022. The owner of Olverk pizzeria in Iceland explaining her establishment's seasonal special at that time, Sheep Face Pizza.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Firat, can you tell us what is actually on your Bahamas pizza?

FIRAT GULTEKIN: So, on Bahamas, it is ham, pineapple, bananas and curry.

CO: Bananas. Okay. So, ham. [FG: Yeah] pineapple, bananas and curry.

FG: Yes, exactly.

CO: And what does it taste like?

FG: It's sweet. Really sweet.

CH: The owner of Skottorps Pizza in Sweden telling our former host Carol Off about his Bahamas pizza, which may not sound good, but one mustn't be ethnocentric. Pizza is essentially a tabula rasa, if you will, a glorious empty canvas waiting to be filled with whatever the chef can imagine. Sheep faces, bananas, even for the truly sensuous epicure, pineapple. Well, recently, a German pizzeria took its creativity in a bold new direction, realizing there was a lot of unused flavour space, it began serving a special ingredient beneath the pizza. And customers embraced this adventurousness. Pizza No. 40, as it was stylishly known, became a bestselling item. It flew off the pizza shelves. Now, I don't want to say that the Dusseldorf police don't understand culinary artistry, but they have shut that pizzeria down. They did not appreciate the ingredient the restaurant was hiding under its pizzas, which was cocaine. The police claimed this was not being used as an exciting new flavour element, but as a drug, and that the people who were buying Pizza No. 40 in droves were not savouring the way the chemical bitterness of cocaine paired with the buttery saltiness of prosciutto. They were buying the pizza just to get the cocaine, which they then inhaled into their noses to get high. Well, now everyone involved, I know it's shocking. Now, everyone involved is under arrest, an exciting experiment in pizza innovation abruptly ends just because everyone involved decided to take a powder.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 2: Gaza Polio Pause, B.C. Mudslide Teacher, Pélicot Trial Update

Gaza Polio Pause

Guest: Jonathan Crickx

CH: It was supposed to begin today, but Israeli attacks in northern Gaza have put a halt to a third and final phase of a campaign to vaccinate children across Gaza against polio. The plan was to inoculate more than a hundred and nineteen thousand children in northern Gaza alone. The World Health Organization launched an emergency campaign in August after a one year old boy contracted polio and his left leg became paralyzed. But now intense bombardment and mass displacement orders have forced health care workers to put things on hold. And those delays could have a devastating impact on efforts to stop the spread of polio. Organizations like UNICEF and the W.H.O. are calling for an immediate cease fire to protect the children and the people trying to help them. Jonathan Crickx is the chief of communications for UNICEF Palestine. We reached him in Jerusalem.

NK: Jonathan, as you well know, the situation, the conditions in northern Gaza have certainly been desperate for some time. What ultimately made you and the team decide that it just was not feasible or safe to proceed with the campaign at this stage?

JONATHAN CRICKX: Well, the ongoing situation in the north of the Gaza Strip is completely unacceptable. I mean, what we are observing is very important, intense bombardment. We are observing massive population displacement. And in those conditions, it's extremely difficult. I mean, technically, it is impossible to lead in an orderly and safe way a vaccination campaign for children under the age of 10. We cannot expect families. We cannot expect mothers to bring their babies to vaccination centres in the current context. And in addition to that, we cannot ensure that the vaccination teams can actually do their job on the ground in a safe way.

NK: This stage of the campaign was going to help vaccinate or hoping to vaccinate more than a hundred and nineteen thousand children. And it was with their second doses, if I understand it. So now that you've had to pause this at this point, what does that mean for the risk of transmission?

JC: The transmission is stopped if we manage to vaccinate 90 per cent, all the children under the age of 10 in the Gaza Strip. For the moment, what we did is we covered the south of the Gaza Strip. We covered the middle of the Gaza Strip, and we cannot currently cover the north. That means that if we cannot proceed with this vaccination campaign in the north, there is a very high risk that the polio virus will spread and affect the children there. It can also affect, you know, viruses they don't know borders, fences, walls. And it's actually a big risk for every child in the region. Now, what we know is that if the second round of polio vaccine can be distributed to children in the north before the 4th or the 5th of November, then we are still within a reasonable timeline to stop that transmission. But I would say that doesn't give us a lot of days.

NK: And just to underline what you have been able to do so far, it was just a couple of days ago the W.H.O. said that this campaign has been more successful than expected, at least to this point. So, does that make a decision like this even more difficult for your teams, I wonder?

JC: Of course, it's difficult. There is something that we must understand in the polio vaccination campaign that was led in September. Of course, it's, it helped on, I would say, a public health perspective, but it also showed something. It showed that if everyone aligns, it is possible to bring lifesaving humanitarian aid or support to children at scale in the Gaza Strip. And this is really something that for us, the polio campaign and the polio virus that is threatening the children in Gaza is extremely important. But we are also very concerned about other types of diseases that can emerge. And we are also very concerned about the fact that bombardments are continuing, that children continue to die. And so for us, it's been very clear that also beyond this campaign, what we also have to fully acknowledge is that the hostages must be released and that we need a ceasefire because you will never be able to have those children being able to recover and to cope with the trauma and to get better when it comes to public health without that.

NK: James Elder was on our program last week and talked about the success so far of the campaign. But to your point about how dangerous it is in northern Gaza, and you cannot expect people to go in and try to get their children immunized, there is still danger, certainly elsewhere. What does it say to you that people are going to those lengths, even in the most dangerous circumstances?

JC: You know, when we were discussing with mothers and we were asking them, why are you coming here today to get your child vaccinated? They were saying, you know, we're living in the most despicable conditions we're living in extremely dire hygiene and situations. Our children are sick all the time. So, anything, anything we can do to protect them will do it. And that was really striking because it's also show showing how beyond the polio situation, the overall situation especially and here we're talking the temperatures are dropping. Winter is about to start in the Gaza Strip, with carrying probably major challenges when it comes to health diseases illnesses and clearly the mothers they wanted to protect their children.

NK: When we spoke to you just before the campaign began at the end of August, you told us about the child who had contracted polio. Do you have any information on how they and their family are doing?

JC: So, the child is followed up closely by the World Health Organization. The last time I checked was a week or 10 days ago. He was stabilized. His health situation was stabilized. He's suffering from some form of paralysis. It seems that he's reacting well to the treatment that at least his status is not deteriorating. It is important to know that we are very worried. I mean, there was one case that was actually recorded, but the current conditions in the Gaza Strip do not allow us to be very confident that there is no cases. And this is actually extremely worrying too.

NK: Jonathan, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

JC: Thank you very much.

CH: Jonathan Crickx is the chief of communications for UNICEF Palestine. We reached him in Jerusalem.

[Music: Chimes instrumental]

B.C. Mudslide Teacher

CH: In a 2018 interview, long time elementary school teacher Sonya McIntyre spoke about how rewarding her job was and what it meant to her to watch her students grow up. Now, parents and students at Aspenwood Elementary are sharing what it meant to them to have Ms. McIntyre in their lives. The 57 year old is one of at least three people who died following heavy rainfall and flooding in British Columbia on the weekend. A mudslide swept away Ms. McIntyre's Coquitlam home. Sonya McIntyre was Sade Leschuk's grade three teacher.

SOUNDCLIP

SADE LESCHUK: I was shocked. My dad had sent me the article in the morning yesterday, and I was just like, this is unbelievable. I had heard someone was missing and I didn't know where she lived. I remember her telling me she lived in like a cottage and I didn't know it was all the way over there. And I just can't believe that something like that happened here. And someone who I felt such a deep connection to, I remember she was only teacher I'd ever accidently called Mom, which was yeah, we laughed about it, but it was just so crazy and I can't believe that, that happened. She also taught my younger brother and sister and we all just adored her and she was an amazing teacher to all of us and had a lasting impact on all of her students. Having Ms. McIntyre as my teacher was amazing. She was so encouraging with her students and you can tell that she really enjoyed her job and I had just never felt a connection with the teacher before like I had with her. Something that made the connection special with her was just her encouraging personality and the smiling face that she always had in her classroom. She let us know that she was there if we ever needed anything. And yeah, always provided a listening ear. I used to bake a lot when I was in grade three, and I would always bring her things that I made and she would give me positive feedback. And that was just something super exciting for me at that age. I remember a time that we were all painting and I had darker skin than everyone in the class and she went out of her way to make sure I had paint that was good for my skin colour, and I thought that was really special. She's inspired me in my adult life to be the best version of myself and keep following my dreams. I had always wanted to be a baker, so she encouraged me to keep baking and gave me positive feedback with that. Although that's not what I'm doing right now, I'm in marketing and real estate, but that's kind of something that I've kept with me. Just keep going. I would say to current students of Ms. McIntyre that she wants everyone to succeed and to keep going. Also allowing time to grieve, because I know it must be so hard to understand that, especially at a young age, but just keep pushing.

CH: That was Sade Leschuk remembering her elementary school teacher, Sonya McIntyre. A school district spokesperson told the CBC its priority right now is to support the students and staff of Aspenwood Elementary community.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Pélicot Trial Update

Guest: Nina Pavan

CH: [Sound of crowds applauding] The sound of applause greeting Gisèle Pélicot outside a courtroom in Avignon, France, today, eight weeks into the trial against her ex-husband, Ms. Pélicot Took the stand for the second time to address the court and her partner of 50 years directly. Dominique Pélicot is accused of drugging his ex-wife repeatedly and arranging for dozens of men to sexually assault her in their residence between 2010 and 2020. Nina Pavan was there when Ms. Pélicot spoke today. She's a freelance journalist reporting for Europe 1. We've reached her in Avignon. And a warning, this story is very disturbing and includes discussion of sexual assault.

NK: Nina, our listeners just heard some of the applause Gisèle Pélicot received. There's a lot of warmth and respect for her, clearly. And she's had that, felt that at several times outside the courtroom throughout these proceedings. What was it like, though, inside that courtroom as she went back on the stand today?

NINA PAVAN: The room became very quiet all of a sudden. When she started talking she was very stoic, very dignified, as she always is during the trial. But seeing her stand in front of the court almost instantly put the audience in silent mode. The atmosphere got really heavy and really sullen as everybody was listening to what she had to say.

NK: And some of the accused were there as well. Not all of them, but some certainly.

NP: Exactly. Not all of them, But all the men that were here, including her ex-husband, looked down, almost wanting to not be here. That's what I got from their attitude.

NK: Gisèle Pélicot has been very clear, loud and clear that she wanted this to be public and that's why she came forward. She didn't want to be in the shadows and she wanted people to know all that had gone on. What was the first thing she said on the stand today?

NP: Actually, exactly that. That she should not feel shame at all and that it took a long time to realize that, that she was not responsible for what happened. And she went back on the fact that a lot of rape victims can feel this way. And that is something that she had to work on and work through. And now she is strong and she want to stand up for herself. And the eight weeks of trial that we already heard made her more confident about this. Then very quickly, she addressed her ex-husband, although she did not look at him at all while she was doing that, she looked straight forward to the, looking at the court's president. And she basically asked him questions that I think she will always ask herself, which were, how could you do that to me after 50 years of living together? How could you invite those strangers in our bedroom? Those were the main questions that she asked him and just expressing the fact that she cannot understand and wrap her mind around what happened. And although she is, I'm quoting still, although she's 72 years old, she knows that she will probably not be able to repair or reconstruct herself and that the time remaining of her life will probably not be enough.

NK: It gives one pause and goosebumps to hear you describe that, to imagine her standing there giving that testimony after everything that she's already endured and heard in that courtroom. What was her demeanour like as she gave that testimony today?

NP: She's very dignified. I'm sorry to use again that word, but that really is the word. If I could give one word for, to describe Gisèle Pélicot it's dignity, you know, she's very calm. You couldn't expect her to be enraged to be crying. Not at all. She is stoic. She does not flinch also because she prepared. It's been four years since she was notified of what happened to her. But still, we could of understand, understood that she would break down. But no. And she insists on the truth. Not worse, not better, but the truth. And that was something that she mentioned.

NK: It sounds that all of that was striking to you as a journalist who's covered cases and stories before.

NP: Yes, very much. She shows a lot, a lot of strength. She said I heard people saying that I'm courageous. She said I'm not courageous, but I'm determined. And I have the will to make this trial not about me, because I'm destroyed, but make this trial about rape and how society views it. And I think that this is so sacrificial.

NK: There's been a lot of discussion about hopes from people who work in this field with survivors of trauma like this, that there will be a better understanding because of this case, that a rapist is not always, you know, a dangerous looking person lurking in an alley, not just her ex-husband, but the other accused. These are ordinary men with families or what would be described as ordinary men. You know, they have jobs, they have daughters and wives, some of whom came to the defence of the other accused. I understand that, Gisèle Pélicot also addressed them a bit in her testimony today. Is that right?

NP: Yes. Amongst those 15 men, a majority do not acknowledge the fact that they raped her and the families of the defendants came to their rescue, you know, in front of the court saying, my husband, my father, my brother is an amazing person and he could never do that. And explaining that if they did come to the Pélicot's house, it's because the husband was very manipulative or directive and that they were um...

NK: That they were tricked.

There were tricked, exactly. And that's a line of defence that we heard a lot during this trial. And she wanted to address that. And she said, I also thought that I had the perfect man at home. That's what I thought for 50 years. I had the perfect husband and a very good father and grandfather, etc...

NK: Do you think that there's a significant shift among the French public about how they see rape?

NP: It is changing. I don't think that we can say that it's changed. But definitely this trial is discussed a lot among French people. Everybody is talking about this trial, especially because I know it's absolutely horrid but without the photos and the videos, there would be no proof at all and nobody would have known that this was happening. So just the fact that she has proof of what happened to her and that chemical submission exists, that is something that is...

NK: She'd been drugged.

NP: That is, yes. And that is shaking French society.

NK: Nina, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you for this.

NP: You're welcome. Thank you.

CH: Nina Pavan is a freelance radio journalist who is reporting on the Dominique Pélicot trial today. We reached her in Avignon.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 3: Alex Nelson Hall Of Fame and FOA: Fred Thomas Hall Of Fame

Alex Nelson Hall Of Fame and FOA: Fred Thomas Hall Of Fame

CH: From an early age, sport was an essential part of Alex Nelson's life. Mr. Nelson is a member of Musgamagw-Dzawada'enuxw First Nation, and he grew up playing soccer in Kingcome, B.C. The game became a constant companion through the ups and downs of his life, including the years he spent in residential school. He loved playing, but it's what he accomplished off the pitch that got Alex Nelson inducted into Canada's Sports Hall of Fame today. He was one of the driving forces behind the North American Indigenous Games. At a ceremony this morning, he was recognized for his work growing and promoting Indigenous sport in Canada and beyond. Alex Nelson travelled from his home in Victoria to attend the induction in Gatineau, Quebec, and that's where we reached him.

NK: Alex, congratulations. I wonder if it has all sunk in yet.

ALEX NELSON: Not completely, no, no. But at the same time, gratitude comes with this call.

NK: How do you feel that in your heart, that kind of gratitude and what today was all about?

AN: Well, it did really allow me to look back on the history and try to review as best I can again. And it's, I guess it's reliving, you know, what you've already accomplished and what you've done. And I think that's where that memory bank really...

NK: Pays off.

AN: Yeah.

NK: Your wife, Nella, and your nephew were both with you at the ceremony, as I understand it today. That must have been quite, quite special to share that moment with both of them.

AN: Yeah. With both of them, they're so special in their different ways. But at the same time...

NK: What did they say to you?

AN: Congratulations. [laughter]

NK: You grew up playing sports. As our listeners have heard, soccer was a particular favourite. What did that game mean to you in those early years?

AN: It meant so much, but that same time I can continue to say it still means so much. You know, just to, I try to remember and that recalling, remember when I was about five years old, you know, and it brought me back home. Home. Home to Kingcome. [NK: Yeah]. And trying to remember what, what happened? Well, well I was remembering. And but it was very, how do you say, empowering. And great wonderment and just to know that I still remember the old people eh and how they played the game. So there again, just an example of intergenerational, you know, results, I guess.

NK: Yeah. And you said home. Home. A moment ago, and you say that because you were forced to go to a residential school. And so, while you were there, sports and soccer were a source of comfort and relief.

AN: Oh, big time. It was big time. And I've always credited that sport for, I guess, keeping me occupied and my mind off of whatever issues were in existence. And so, yeah, I have pretty high praise for that game.

NK: Yeah. You know what it feels like to be on the pitch, you know, playing, playing that game. How would you describe the rush of that?

AN: I think a lot of excitement, of course. And but at the same time, when I'm playing, I then start to think about, now think about the relief. It was there for me. You know, it was truly there for me. So, in, you know, in saying that, I need to say thank you Creator for giving me the memory during the experience. [NK: Yeah]. And giving me the game. Gratitude always.

NK: Gratitude always. I can hear that. Yeah. You were inducted into the Hall of Fame as a 'Builder', and a big part of that is the involvement you've had with the North American Indigenous Games, or NAIG you were the first chairperson for the games. You wanted to be a big part of making that event a reality. What drew you to it?

AN: Oh, the passion is just bringing people together and bringing together in a way that was just so exciting, you know, thinking about what it created for myself. And I could just call it, it was passion.

NK: And you've been to every games since that first one, haven't missed one, as I understand it. So, to see them be so successful still and also, you know, you were talking about the older players. So, maybe some of the younger players look to you in that way. What is it like to see them succeeding and loving sport as well?

AN: I think with the younger stages it was the coach, it transformed itself into coaching. And to coach the young people and recognizing it would offer them survival tools and skills and teachings, make the game more gratifying in my heart. So, with that, once again, thank your Creator for, its gratitude.

NK: Is it satisfaction that you feel on top of that gratitude to see these games thriving still?

AN: It's big satisfaction and recognizing it's going to continue. And once again, that's our journey to is, is to ensure that everything does continue. And so, I'm counting on the next generations counting on my seven year old great grandson to, you know, to have that same love for the game at the same time, the same passion that I have. And, you know, and today, of course, and at the games, I had my wife there who plays soccer and I have, his name's Keyody [spelling unknown] and he played professional soccer. So, you know, our tradition continues in a great way.

NK: It sure does. Alex, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

AN: Okay. Well, thank you for calling. And take care of yourself.

NK: You, too.

CH: Alex Nelson has just been inducted into Canada's Sports Hall of Fame in a category celebrating 'Builders'. We reached him in Gatineau, Quebec. Mr. Nelson was one of several honourees at today's ceremony. Another was Fred Thomas, who was inducted posthumously. As an athlete, he had phenomenal range. He played baseball and basketball, both at a high level before he joined the Toronto Argonauts, becoming the first Black Canadian player in the CFL. When this year's inductees were announced in June Nil spoke with Mr. Thomas's son Dennis, from our archives. Here's some of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Dennis, tell us about the moment when you get the news -- maybe it's a call, maybe it's an email -- that your father is going to be inducted into the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame.

DENNIS THOMAS: Obviously, he was a very positive -- I think -- a positive person and influence in a lot of people's lives. I talked to a family friend who asked him once about prejudice. This was -- like -- in the '70s, after his experience of playing ball in the States and growing up with racism just generally. And it's funny, and when you say racism in Windsor, I'm sure it was there. But all he really saw and got from people was, was love. Now, maybe the people on the other side of the court, they didn't love him so much. [both chuckle] And that's where -- I believe -- the racism comes in to, to, to act. But -- overall -- just a very humble man. He was, a positive figure, and -- more or less -- a bridge builder. And you can kind of see that in, in, his after sports career and in teaching.

NK: Yeah, he was a teacher and a coach. Did you know, when you were little what he had achieved before then?

DT: He told us that he was, he played a lot of sports -- basketball and baseball were his primary sports, as well as track. I really didn't have any idea as to the extent as to how popular and his achievements. He was always Dad and always a hero, no matter what. He'd take us to school a couple of times -- to his school on our PD days, right?

NK: Yeah.

DT: And he was clearly loved by all the students there, too, in the school that he taught up at -- Valley Park.

NK: What did he tell you about playing all of those different sports -- pro baseball, basketball, football as well, track you mentioned. And what was it about him that he was able to excel? I mean, it's very rare to have skills in that many sports, right?

DT: It, I'll say it is rare nowadays because everybody's locked in on the one sport -- which everybody specializes now. But -- I guess -- back then and even when I was a kid -- more or less -- you played hockey in the wintertime. And then that led into baseball in the summertime. And -- you know -- and obviously at school there's, track and field or whatever's going on, right? But -- for him -- he loved sports. And I think his determination and his, his mental toughness and hardworking is what he, what made him excel at it.

CH: From our archives, that was Dennis Thomas speaking to Nil in June. His father, Fred Thomas, was posthumously inducted into Canada's Sports Hall of Fame today.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For October 23, 2024

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