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Cross Country Checkup

Should retailers be able to charge extra to customers who use premium credit cards?

The hidden cost of credit cards: Canadian retailers lost a case this week over high fees for processing premium credit cards. They say it's costing billions of dollars per year. And raising prices for everyone. Retailers want to be able to charge extra at the till to recoup the cost. Should they be able to?With guest host, Andrew Nichols...
CBC Radio ·
The hidden cost of credit cards: Canadian retailers lost a case this week over high fees for processing premium credit cards.

They say it's costing billions of dollars per year. And raising prices for everyone.

Retailers want to be able to charge extra at the till to recoup the cost. Should they be able to?

With guest host, Andrew Nichols





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Introduction

Last week Canadian retailers and credit companies locked horns in a case that offers a fascinating glimpse into the importance of credit cards and their hidden costs.

The Competition Tribunal was asked to delve into the fees retailers are charged by credit card companies.

Canadian retailers were asking for the right to refuse so-called premium cards, that carry higher processing charges. Under current rules, retailers aren't allowed to pick and choose what versions of any given credit card they accept. And retailers say the processing fees are among the highest in the world and it's costing them billions of dollars a year. A cost that is being past along to all consumers.

The Tribunal refused to change the rules - at least for now.  But Finance Minister Jim Flaherty says he's monitoring a potential appeal of the tribunal ruling. And some financial watchers say that it's only a matter of time before some changes take place .. along the lines of  many European countries and also Australia, where the transaction costs are made transparent at the cash register.

Canadian retailers say that all Canadians are paying more for goods and services because of the high processing fees, especially for the premium credit cards.

And the cost of using the premium reward cards should be borne by those who use them.

On the other hand, retailers also know that when customers charge purchases to a credit card there is a tendency to spend more. That's good for business. And good for the banks.

Today we'd like to hear what you think. Do you value the convenience - and benefits of credit cards, premium or otherwise?

Are you prepared to pay more to use certain cards ...or perhaps get a discount for cash or debit purchases? From paying to parking .. to online shopping we'd like to hear how you manage your credit cards.

If you work in a business - large or small - and deal with credit cards on a daily basis we would love to hear from you.

How much is it costing you to process plastic? Are there some cards you won't take? How do the current rules over accepting premium credit cards apply to you?

We hear a lot about how much consumer debt we rack up each year - and according to a report by Environics Analytics Canadians are among the most indebted in the world. But have you figured out a way to use premium credit cards to your advantage, perhaps by racking up air miles or some other kind of reward points?

Our question today: "Should retailers be able to charge extra to customers who use premium credit cards?"

I'm Andrew Nichols ...on CBC Radio One ...and on Sirius XM, satellite radio channel 169 ...this is Cross Country Checkup



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I'd like someone to address the concept of credit card issuers dividing their products into several groups, based on merchant fees and branding the different groups differently. For example, low-fee Visa cards could be branded using the old Chargex name and higher-fee cards could continue to use the Visa name. Merchants willing to accept only the low-fee cards would advertise their acceptance of Chargex, but not Visa. Presumably, merchants willing to accept VIisa would also accept Chargex (lower cost for them) and would advertise acceptance of both. The Mastercard issuers, and others, could do similar things.

Lawrence Savlov,
Toronto, Ontario.



We are against the right of merchants to surcharge transactions. Instead Visa and Mastercard should be made to revert back to the  pre-June 2008 practice of a set percentage charge for Visa and a set percentage charge for Mastercard no matter what the type of Visa or Mastercard. There should not be varying and higher percentages. The Code of Conduct is not really the answer and is tackling the problem from the wrong angle.

I co-own a sporting goods store in Duncan, Bc and since June 2008 we have been charged ever increasing charges by Visa and Mastercard. As a member of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business we brought this their attention The CFIB has done good some work on this issue.

However, the only proper resolution is to make Visa and Mastercard revert back to charge a flat rate for Visa and a flat rate for Mastercard to the merchant. Any fees for the privileges offered by a card should be between the cardholder and the card issuer and not for the account of the merchant.

There is no valid reason other than a base revenue grab for Visa or Mastercard to charge a merchant one fee for a $200 sale paid for by one type of Visa or Mastercard  and then charge a higher fee for another $200 sale paid for by a different Visa or Mastercard. This has been going on since 2008 and  is now entrenched. I doubt very much that we can stop this daylight robbery. Surcharging at the till will alienate customers, and is not the solution.

Maureen Ellis, 
Duncan, British Columbia.



My wife and I use a premium credit card for all purchases, groceries to house insurance. We do it for the travel miles. We pay off the credit balance every month. For us the status quo is ideal. There is no incentive to change.

However, if cash or debit discounts were offered, we would use this method. I personally sympathize with the retailers and would use cash or debit if this was discounted.

Bill Didur, 
Delta, British Columbia.  




The question Canadians should be asking is why are credit card companies allowed to prevent their retail clients, particularly gasoline retailers, from giving a discount for cash sales as is the practice in the U.S.

Rob Ellaway,
North Vancouver, British Columbia. 



I have two reward type credit cards that require a yearly fee. In paying this fee I should not have to incur any other fees for the use these cards. The trap that people can fall into is bringing a monthly credit card balance into the home. This is poison.

I use my cards like cash, Which means I make my purchase,leave the store, sit in my car and using my iPhone pay the balance that I just incurred using my banking app. At the end of the year I cash in my points. A credit card balance older that thirty days is poison.

Lorne Piercey, 
Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia




Sounds like credit card companies are double dipping. They are charging the card holders a yearly fee at one end and charging the retailers at the other end. Greedy banks. No shock there.

I like the rewards of the premium cards, but I would not pay the extra charge by a retailer. As a matter of fact, when a retailer tried to offload their fee to me, I walked away. 

Credit cards benefit both retailers and the credit companies. If they try to take advantage of consumers by charging surcharges, I will revert to cash and shop less often. I will also be getting the free credit card for online purchases. That also has a lower interest
rate.

Barry Smith
Halifax, Nova Scotia. 



I have been with Captial One since 2005 and the only charge that I get from them would be an annual fee when I use the card, since my income is not high enough to have a premium card. I don't agree with charging a fee when shopping at a retailer.

Jason Turgeon
Thunder Bay, Ontario. 



This whole discussion should be focused on the entire credit card business, really. The hidden charges are really quite abysmal and bear no relationship to the cost of service. One has to look no further than the billions of dollars of profit banks make every year.

Here is a novel idea. When you buy goods, the price should be on the receipt, with a separate entry on the bottom to tell you what it cost you to use the particular card you choose to use. So, if you use a premium card, the cost is higher. If not, it is lower. If you pay cash, the receipt could say "By using cash, you saved from xx to yy dollars, depending on the credit card you might have used."

Transparency. Let's make the banks and credit card companies come clean with where the billions of profits are really coming from.


Mike Frenette
Hammonds Plains, Nova Scotia. 




Please could you answer this: are retailers allowed to charge for debit card use and regular credit card use?  At SFU, many retailers charge students 25 cents for using debit cards and a retailer near my home charges 25 cents for using credit cards. Is this legal? I am very curious about this. Many businesses also charge a fee for debit or credit card use if the amount being spent at the retailer is less than $5. Is this legal?

Shelley Comer,
New Westminster, British Columbia. 




Those of us with premium cards are paying a $120 per year fee to have the card, plus if you have a premium travel card, you have fees to claim the travel points and you pay the taxes on the ticket. We are paying enough for these cards.

Given the large profits the banks rack up every year, if merchants want to seek uniform fees for all credit cards, they should not have been seeking the compensation from the consumer. Rather, they should be seeking it from the banks. The banks are just been greedy and throwing their weight around as the big kid on the block, bullying the merchants into an unfair fee structure.

Andy Silis
Greely, Ontario.



I am the holder of a premium credit card, for which I pay $120 per year. I was very much surprised to learn that my bank charges the merchant a second premium every time I use the card. I find myself becoming increasingly ashamed each time I use the card and I am beginning to think that I will not use the card any more.

Yodar, 
Kitchener, Ontario. 



I think that the big issue is being glossed over and this is detrimental to consumers. While merchant are charged more for the use of premium cards, all credit cards exact a cost. What is needed is a change which allows merchants to offer customers a 1.5% discount for cash payments rather than being able to charge more for the use of premium cards.

Ken Miyazaki
Richmond, British Columbia.


Your guest said that businesses are charged 12 cents for debit transactions, but my local store charges 50 cents on top of my purchase so I use my credit card and they can pay the service charge. 

Rolanda Tovey
Spring Bay, Ontario.




Iceland Air already does add surcharge whether fare is booked with them or a tour operator, eg Itravel2000 adds charge to booking. I sent a bank draft to avoid charge.

I am gtting new roof shingles next week. If I use a card, I will pay 2% more. I am paying by cheque. Worth mentioning also that if you look at the small print, many credit cards have a percentage service charge for foreign currency use or exchange, unless it is a premium card.

Jacqueline Peers,
Toronto, Ontario. 





The $120 or so charge your callers are talking about don't apply to the very rich customers. If they have a certain dollar amount invested through the bank or keep over a set point of cash in the bank, the fees for the premium cards are waived. Only the middle class pay the annual fee.

Sam Cuttell,
Melbourne, Ontario.



I am a small business retailer. I cringe every time someone uses a Visa card. By the time I get all Visa fees paid each month, it comes to 4.5% of my sales.  M/C is 2.5%.  Debit is .11 per transaction. I do not add the percentage in to the price of my product.

Audrey Hicks, 
Manitoba.  




Here's another facet to this issue. If you give a tip at a restaurant on your credit card, the restaurant owner has to pay 3% of the tip to visa or MC and in some provinces the server is entitled to the full tip.

Greg Pittman
Spanish room, Newfoundland.



There are credit cards that have no annual fee available for Canadian consumers. The Financial Consumer Agency of Canada, a federal government agency, has a free online credit card selector tool on its website that lists 263 different credit cards, including no fee, low-interest and specialized cards like those for students or people who are looking for a secured credit card.  

Check it out at http://www.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/iTools-iOutils/creditcardselector/CreditCard-eng.aspx.

The Agency also has a tip sheet, Be smart with your credit card, tips to help you use your credit card wisely: http://www.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/iTools-iOutils/creditcardselector/CreditCard-eng.aspx.

More information on credit cards and other financial products and services can be found on the Agency's website at itpaystoknow.gc.ca.

Julie Hauser,
Media Relations Officer,
Financial Consumer Agency of Canada.


Since credit card companies don't wish to compete for points, then we have to make them. All businesses have to work together to accept only one of the major cards. Don't you think that the other would come knocking with a new deal giving the store owner a break. You bet they would. The result of this strategy is that the retailer still has credit card acceptance (most people have both) and the only loser is one who price fixed the usage cost. Canadians always get ripped off, because they allow it. 

Robert Graham
claremont, Ontario. 


We have a pottery business and have both wholesale and retail sales, mainly in the summer from our studio/gallery. Last year I calculated the fees we paid on Master Card and Visa sales and between the monthly charges and percentage fees, we paid over 9% to the credit card companies on our credit card transactions. Because of our location we are only able to use a manual credit card device, so are unable to process debit cards. According to our contract we are not supposed to show a preference for cash sales or give customers a benefit for cash sales. Potters typically work long hours for a modest income, and so this kind of expense paid to the banks is infuriating. I think of it as a form of taxation being paid to private banks, instead of to the government for the general good.

Jan Lovewell,
Lund, British Columbia.



Are you aware that most of the provincial post-secondary schools (UBC, SFU, BCIT) are now refusing to take credit card unless there is a direct surcharge to the user? The credit card companies are not saying a word of protest in these cases.

John Brohman
Port Coquitlam, British Columbia. 




When will people wake up and realize that nothing is free. The hidden agenda that the banks, credit card companies, airlines and import companies have is to motivate people to consume. The lie that they tell us consumers is "it is free". Somebody has to pay. It is frightening when one really looks at what is happening here.  Consumption is making all of us slaves to banks and large corporations. Stop using credit card. Stay out of debt. Take a staycation.

Leo,
Chetwynd, British Clumbia.



I have owned a bookstore for 40 years and seen what we pay to the banks in terms of credit card fees and service charges rise way more than inflation and with no increase in service at all. Just to let your customers know that the larger your business, the less you will pay in fees to credit card companies. This leaves small business affected the most. Just one other thing that I have heard mentioned that I would like to correct is that a business like mine, does not raise their prices because of higher fees. The price the customer pays for a book is right on the book. And of course, you know what has happened to the book business in the last few years. Thank you for raising this issue.

Barb Minett,
Guelph, Ontario.



This is really a private transaction between the credit card provider and the retailer. There is no compulsion to use credit cards. Any business can operate without accepting them, but maybe not for long. Customer demand drives the wide availability of credit card payment.

I use a premium card. If a business charged me to use it, I would go elsewhere. Many businesses would maintain the status quo to retain customers like me. I doubt much would change with new rules or legislation.

Businesses benefit by using credit cards. The credit card company assumes all risk, no bounced cheques or counterfeit bills. My wife runs a small business that used to accept cheques and cash only. She now accepts credit cards. Credit card payments are safer and much easier to process, saving her time and money.

Dale Arden,
Almonte, Ontario.



Your focus has been on the affect of credit card fees on small businesses but they also have an affect on charities. I worked for a registered charity for several years and had to advise donors that although they would receive a tax receipt for their entire donation 3% of it would actually go to the credit card company. It would be interesting to know how much they profited this year on the floods in Albert and the disaster in Lac Megantic.

Joanne Toews
Abbotsford, British Columbia. 



Merchants charge more than in USA because it costs more to do business in Canada as compared to USA, and it is not all taxes, business taxes are lower in Canada than the US.

Our free medical coverage costs. Ask most US citizens if they would like to have Canada's medical coverage rather than pay via their insurance or straight pay at hospital, they would say yes.

Our regulations on health and safety are some of the highest in the world also costs.

Bank regulations are very stringent. Canada did not suffer (to the same extent) from the 2008 melt down like the rest of the World did. Our banks did not collapse or need major government bail outs.

Many of the companies that Canadian merchant buy from are Canadian distriibutors of US goods, so there is a middleman. This puts up the price as opposed what US merchants pay as they by direct. Having lived in many countries that do not have the protections of Canada, I am willing to pay for and put up with higher prices. It is worth it.

Kate Minor,
Brantford, Ontario.



In all this discussion we should remember two things.

First, this whole issue raises awareness, so we consumers can choose when to use credit cards and use debit or cash. I learned from a local small business that the debit costs pennies, no matter what the size of transaction so I use it for local businesses (which are better for the economy in so many ways anyway.)

Second, in our society we the public subsidize all sorts of things. In January, the federal government announced another $250 million subsidy directly to auto makers. At the same time, the automakers had forced wage and other rollbacks from workers. From oil spills to auto industries, there is a shift of the long-term economic consequences from the private sector to the public sector while corporate profits accelerate.

More directly, people who don't drive a lot subsidize people who do drive. So cyclists and public transit users subsidize auto drivers (since roads are much more expensive when they are dominated by personal autos carrying mostly just one person, and roads are not just built from taxes of auto use). Similarly, the hidden carbon costs of coal-fired generation (like Alberta) is higher than for renewable, and I pay a flat fee for garbage removable, regardless of whether my household has one bag or less a week and the house across the alley has 7-plus (same number of kids in the house.)

These are all effects of the so-called "free market". In this case, the free market system allows credit card companies to freely set the rules, so that everyone pays more by keeping the credit card surcharge rates higher than they could if governments regulated for the benefit to the overall public.

Randy Haluza-DeLay
Edmonton, Alberta. 



Canadians should have the choice. Customers have at IKEA in Minneapolis. If customers pay by debit or cash, they get a discount. Unless that or another similar option can be offered by retailers in Canada, most customers are effectively subjected to a tax, a charge unrelated to the value they receive. This is one of the way keep the poor, poor.

Large companies in Canada avoid some of the credit card cost burden by encouraging customers to use credit cards they issue. When I bought gas yesterday at Costco, my only pay at the pump options were a debit card or a Costco issued credit card.

I think the only fair way to deal with the credit card issue is to make it illegal for credit card companies to prevent retailers from charging a service charge (or providing a discount) depending on the method of payment. That is the best economic approach and it would reduce the burden on the poor who now pay for everyone else's credit card costs but have no credit cards themselves.

Dan Prowse, 
Winnipeg, Manitoba. 



To look at the obverse of today's question, retailers - should they so choose - could routinely offer a discount for cash and debit payments. I regularly buy gas in the US at a gas station which displays both cash and credit card prices. The debit card price is the same as the cash price.

Offering a cash discount would not involve any re-tooling of the check-out tills, is simple to apply and readily available. The amount of the discount could equal the average credit costs to the merchant. I am aware that a few small merchants are already doing this. Those merchants who are not, but still complaining about premium cards, should consider this simple solution to their complaint.

Gerard Ponsford
White Rock, British Columbia. 



Are these fees also included in visa debit cards? My husband and I do not use a credit card any longer because of fees and interest and points that get erased if you don't use them fast enough. Now we use a visa debit card. We can use it for nearly any online purchase and flight bookings. We do not miss our credit card ever. I do wonder if we could all avoid  the fees and the extra costs hidden in our everyday purchases if we stopped points cards and instead chose to put 3 percent of every purchase away for our own rewards to ourselves?

Stacey Lassnig
Schanzenfeld, Manitoba. 


There are costs involved in handling cash including errors and labour involved in handling cash. Is this not passed on to the customer?

Lizbeth O'Connor
Ottawa, Ontario. 


I do think that customers should be charged for using their Visas and master cards, especially at small retailers, who are the backbone of our economy. Charge card companies hold small retailers hostage who are bullied into providing this outrageously expensive service to their customers. It is clearly a money grab enterprise and everyone pays big bucks to make a small number of people rich. Customers are seduced into to using these cards with the promise of air miles, with no thought of the  crippling cost to small businesses.

As a senior on a budget, I only use cash or my debit card (12 cents per transaction) beause I refuse to pay the credit card fees and am quite horrified by this deceptive practice. I was delighted to find out that one of our premium grocery retailers, here in Vancouver, Bosa Italian foods, refuses to take charge cards. They get it and I am a faithful customer.

Karen Patrick,
North Vancouver, British Columbia.



One caller has mentioned the surcharge for accepting Canadian credit cards in the U.S. One has to remember that the Canadian banks charge a usurous amount of 2.5% of the amount charged just for processing a foreign transaction over and above the exchange rate. One has to assume that it's similar in the U.S.

As to the amounts, one has to remember that in regard to the amount charged that there is going to be a charge for a "regular" card as well. This conversation has highlighted that that's the case. The difference is between 1% and 1.5% for a premium card over the "regular" one. So we are talking about a penny on a dollar, or one dollar on one hundred. If the public is told that accepting credit cards would raise would raise the price of the merchandise by 1%, would we really care? Remember, there are not all that many $1000 purchases and ask if individuals care all that much about adding $10 to that $1000.  I'd offer that many people would often spend that in a day without thinking.

John Hicks
Fort McMurray, Alberta.



I hope all listeners took note of the fact that the editor of the financial post said that the banks and credit card companies are not gouging us and that they have lots of competition. We can see where his interests lie. Sounds like we will all save money if we avoid using credit cards when possible.


Sharleen Treleaven,
Stoney Creek



What you are not hearing on the program is the cost of obtaining cash. Going to bank machines cost us money, sometimes up to $3.00 per withdrawel at private machines. Either we use cards and have the cost downloaded to business and they can adjust their prices or we have to deal with the difficulty of obtaining, carrying and spending cash. By the way, when is the last time you lost a bundle of cash and it reappeared in your bank account?

Allan Gribbin,
Creston, British Columbia. 



We all have pockets full of reward cards. What if you only received rewards for your purchase if you used cash or debit. or you got fewer rewards when you used your credit card?

Kathleen Lloyd.
Penticton, British Columbia. 


I agree that merchants should be allowed to charge extra for premium cards. I have a simple dividend card that pays me up to 1% of my turnover and it has no annual fee. It simplifies my life so that I don"t have the hassle of trying to claim various kinds of points for travel etc. I am flabbergasted at people who pay for a credit card. If they will look most banks offer a no fee card. I think people need to take on a sense of personal responsibility for this. They should not expect the government to regulate everything in this field.

Bob Hannah,
Gatineau, Quebec. 


Canadian Tire in Greater Victoria give the Canadian tire money if you pay by interact or cash but don't if you pay by credit card. So they have a two tier pricing system. The lady with the wool store can program her computer till to give discounts for payment forms.  I pay by cash when I can to give the retailer a bit of a percentage boost. If a retailer had a sign saying they give a percentage discount for cash (and I have seen it in smaller stores) I would shop there and the word would get out very quickly.

Ken Oke,
North Saanich, British Columbia. 



I agree that merchants should be allowed to charge extra for premium cards. I have a simple dividend card that pays me up to 1% of my turnover and it has no annual fee. It simplifies my life so that I don"t have the hassle of trying to claim various kinds of points for travel etc. I am flabbergasted at people who pay for a credit card. If they will look most banks offer a no fee card. I think people need to take on a sense of personal responsibility for this. They should not expect the government to reglate everything in this field.

Bob Hannah,
Gatineau, Quebec. 



I am a retired lady with a fixed income, and i don't use credit cards, air miles or any of those credit services. Almost all my money gets spent on daily expenses like food, clothing and shelter. Apparently, credit card purchases cost the retailer an extra 3%, which they roll over to all their customers, including me.

I am guessing that I pay on average 1% extra for all my purchases, a hidden fee of about $200-300 a year off my tiny income. This goes mostly to the credit card companies, banks and the people with enough income and stability to warrant a fancy card.

I can see what the well-to-do get out of it. Could you remind me again what I get for that hidden surcharge?

Holly Nelson,
Winnipeg, Manitoba.


 
I am a treasurer of a non-profit organization. 
 
Just like small businesses, non-profit organizations are also impacted by credit card fees and in particular by premium credit card fees. For example, on a $800 fee for a month of day care, we have had to pay up to $40 in processing fees.  These additional fees eat into the funds we generate to provide additional services to our community. We would rather not increase our program costs, as this can impact the ability of low income persons to use our programs. 
 
Bridget Minishka,
Victoria, British Columbia. 


Ask the retailers how much of these fees they can write off. I used to have a business and could certainly write off a substantial part of all business bank and banking fees. So do they really have to put that on the backs of the consumer? I don't think it's that bad. It's the price of doing business.

Wendy Adam
Surrey, British Columbia. 



Don't forget the that all credit transaction saves the cost for the cost of a cash transaction. Bank of Canada saves the cost of the cash money transfer. Bank of Canada should provide a free Crebit card (without any premium bonus)

Lars Gustavsson
Kanata, Ontario.



I do the books for a friend who is in a service business. The debit card charge isn't anywhere near the 12cents one of your guests suggested. I'm not sure if these rates are changeable. Our flat rate is 50cents. As to the premium vs regular credit card, I see no difference in our percentage charged, regardless of card, our rate is 2.6%. The rates are assigned depending on the amount of business you run through their card systems. My personal direct selling business has a percentage of 3.25%. This was negotiated by the home company for us even though we're all individual business owners.

Regardless of what percentage a retailer or service provider is assigned, the flat rate for debit cards is still a better situation. Someone who pays a $600.00 bill with a debit card generates a 50 cent charge to the service provider. This same amount paid with a credit card generates over $15.00 in charges to the service provider.

My personal bank issues a virtual visa for online purchases. I thought this was the best solution for me. The number acts like a visa card but comes directly from my account like a debit card.  But, unfortunately not all companies will accept the virtual visa. I have no idea what is charged to the retailer or service provider.

As to the retailers having signed up to accept the credit cards, when retailers signed up, at least the older retailers, there was only a regular Visa Card and a regular MasterCard.  Once they're signed up, they had no control about which "Visa" or "Master" card is delivered as payment.

There are a great number of US companies that will not accept Canadian Credit Cards, particularly with on-line purchases. So much for the advertising of the Credit Card companies. They do not work all around the world.

Dawn Collins
Cardston, Alberta.


I do accounting for a non-profit art school, and we have to offer credit card and debit payment options to the students that pay tuition for the courses. We have dealt with three different point of sale companies that sell the POS machines and process the payments(eg. EVO, Monex, etc) The machines cost anywhere from $900 to over $2500 plus then there are fees on top of the credit card percentages. Then there are fees to set up and fees to cancel ($500 is normal). It can cost the school up to $15,000 in a year, all going to financial processing instead of education or charitable work.

The government should regulate these fees, especially as they apply to non-profit and charitable organizations.

Laura Feeleus,
Victoria, British Columbia.