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Front Burner Transcript for July 11, 2025

Host: Jayme Poisson

JAYME POISSON: Hi everybody, I'm Jayme Poisson. After years of speculation, this week, U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi dismissed the existence of the Epstein client list and reaffirmed a ruling that he died by suicide. This comes after months of hopes, in some quarters, that Trump would make good on his promise to reveal more details about the case. His own vice president, J.D. Vance, wanted to know more.

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HOST: Release the list.

[laughter]

J.D. VANCE: Seriously, we need to release the Epstein list. That, that is an important thing.

JP: And so did Elon Musk, who accused Donald Trump of being in the so-called Epstein files.

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CNN HOST: Musk deleted that post two days later. But the new memo has Musk posting this meme among others. It's a guy putting on progressively more clown makeup with the text: "We will release the Epstein list. We just need more time. The Epstein list is on my desk. There is no Epstein list," with full clown regalia.

JP: This week's developments have not exactly put a stop to legitimate questions about Epstein's death, the secrecy around the case, or the conspiracies. And in the conservative media ecosystem, folks are not taking this well.

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ALEX JONES: I just really need the Trump administration to succeed and to save this country, and they're doing so much good. And then for them to do something like this, tears my guts out.

PATRICK BET-DAVID, Conservative podcaster: This is by far the biggest fumble of the administration.

TUCKER CARLSON: The current DOJ under Pam Bondi is covering up crimes, very serious crimes by their own description. Why are they doing that?

JP: Vicky Ward is an investigative reporter and bestselling author who has been reporting on Jeffrey Epstein for years now. You can read her work on her Substack at Vicky Ward Investigates, and her most recent book is on the 2022 Idaho Four killings. Vicky joins me now to talk about the Epstein files and how the life and crimes of Jeffrey Epstein became one of the defining conspiracies of the 21st century.

[Music: Theme]

JP: Vicky, hey, thank you so much for coming onto the show. It's great to have you.

VICKY WARD: Thank you for having me.

JP: So let's walk through the DOJ dismissal of the so-called Epstein client list. They're saying there isn't one. Tell me more about what Pam Bondi had to say, and were you surprised by that finding?

VICKY WARD: Huh, how to unpack all of that, Jayme. So I wasn't shocked that there was no, quote unquote, "client list." Because knowing-- having met Jeffrey Epstein and reported on him, as you say, for years, he's not the kind of guy who would keep a, quote unquote, "client list." This is a guy who had no footprint in the markets despite, you know, claiming he was the financial manager for some of the richest and most powerful men in the world. So my guess, and I'm obviously speculating, is that Pam Bondi got over her skis when she initially said she had the Epstein client list.

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FOX NEWS HOST: The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen?

PAM BONDI: It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive.

VICKY WARD: I think that was an unfortunate phrasing on her part, and she's now having to walk that back.

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PAM BONDI: I was asked a question about the client list, and my response was, 'It's sitting on my desk to be reviewed,' -- meaning the file, along with the JFK, MLK files as well. That's what I meant by that. Also, to the tens of thousands of video -- they turned out to be child porn downloaded by that disgusting Jeffrey Epstein. Never gonna be released, never gonna see the light of day.

VICKY WARD: However, was I amazed when she said there was nothing other than child pornography in the, quote unquote, "Epstein files." That to me doesn't add up. She also said, Jayme, that Jeffrey Epstein had over a thousand victims. So there is no way that one man abuses a thousand victims without being propped up by other people. I mean, there are many, many question marks about Jeffrey Epstein, but the one that I have been most consistently pursuing and got no answers to, is what is the role of all the rich and powerful and famous men who enabled him? And their names, you know, yes, one of them is Donald Trump's. Another is Bill Clinton's. Another was Prince Andrew. Another is Bill Gates. I could go on and on and on. But the question is, knowing what we know about Jeffrey Epstein's criminal enterprise, where is any investigation and any record of the role of all these men who made Jeffrey Epstein, at the very least, rich? Leon Black, the financier, paid Jeffrey Epstein $160 million, he said, for tax advice. Where is a more detailed explanation of that, for example? [JP: Right.] So I think for Pam Bondi to say, there's no there, there, misses the point of the questions that have been asked about Jeffrey Epstein. Because the outrage and the questions wasn't so much about Epstein's actions per se. It was about the system of power.

JP: Mm-hmm. Around him.

VICKY WARD: Exactly.

JP: Yeah. You know, Pam Bondi said that she's not going to be releasing any more files. First, let's do what has been released so far, then I want to talk about what hasn't. There has been a ton of filings and documents related to the case that have come out. Have they given us a clearer picture about what you're talking about here?

VICKY WARD: Well, not to me. I mean, you know, my name is in the Epstein files. And that's because I was somebody who had interviewed him, who knew Ghislaine Maxwell, and because I interviewed some of his victims. And so, you know, at one time I think I was on both her and Virginia Roberts' witness lists. I was never called in their civil litigation. And by the way, and therefore it's also no surprise that Donald Trump was mentioned in the Epstein files because, as we all know, he and Jeffrey Epstein knew each other very, very well for many years until they fell out. So the Epstein files themselves did not contain anything new. They were just a comprehensive bundle of all the litigation and discovery of all the cases that we already know about. There was nothing new in them at all.

JP: What about what hasn't been released? Because objectively, there are piles of files and documents related to this case currently in the possession of both the FBI and the Department of Justice, as I understand it, that have not been released.

VICKY WARD: So Pam Bondi is saying that's not the case and that what she's sitting on is just loads and loads of videos of child pornography that she's got no intention...

JP: Right. She's saying this is child pornography that Jeffrey Epstein downloaded himself. [VICKY: Yes.] Used himself, right? Okay.

VICKY WARD: Yes. So here's the difficulty with that. People know, I know -- because I sat through Ghislaine Maxwell's trial for six weeks -- that there were tantalizingly cameo appearances of all sorts of high-profile people, whose names would flash up before the jury because they were on planes with Epstein and Maxwell, or, you know, they had come to visit Jeffrey Epstein. But, you know, the trial was focused on one person: Ghislaine. And so you never got to see the whole picture. And given that Jeffrey Epstein lived in sort of plain sight, I think that for the government to not, for example, look at Leon Black, look more closely at all the men they know were involved with Jeffrey Epstein, I think is extraordinary.

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JP: Do you think that they haven't looked at those men?

VICKY WARD: Well, I think, you know, I'm reminded of something Jeffrey Epstein said to me. And you have to remember, this man was a very, very clever... I mean, people focus on the depravity and the crimes, the sex crimes, which they're 100% right to do. But the whole other side of him was a very brilliant, manipulative con artist who took a lot of money. And what Jeffrey Epstein said to me in 2002 is that when, when rich people are defrauded, they don't go to the police because it's embarrassing. And so I do have one thought, which-- you know, and I know of cases where Jeffrey Epstein inserted himself into wealthy people's lives, and they put him in a position of great power over their finances, just like Leslie Wexner did. And I know that those people, they won't go on the record for the same reason they won't go to the police. You know, wound up considerably worse off thanks to Jeffrey Epstein. But if they don't go to law enforcement, then there's not that much that law enforcement can do. And one of the other things that I've reported a lot, Jayme, around the Ghislaine Maxwell trial is that sources have told me that there were a large number of settlements between various Epstein victims and other of the big names, big male names. And that those settlements were basically cash in exchange for silence. So again, if people don't go to the FBI and complain, it's unlikely that the FBI is going to start looking under rocks.

JP: Do you think, though, that there are records in existence right now that if they were released would give people more answers? I mean, people certainly seem to believe that, right? And I mean, even, I was going through an article written by the journalist Julie K. Brown, [VICKY: Yeah.] and she's talking about Epstein's computers from 2005 and 2019, that they haven't been released, the contents of those; lots of documents from the Ghislaine Maxwell prosecution; video cameras that Epstein kept in most of his residences; U.S. Marshal Service records that were charged with inspecting Epstein's planes. And I think the idea would be that they would need to record the names of passengers, right?

VICKY WARD: Right.

JP: Federal grand jury evidence, at least two federal grand juries. This kind of stuff.

VICKY WARD: Well, look, there's no question that those documents exist.

JP: Do you think there's anything in it that would satisfy people?

VICKY WARD: Well, I'm sure there's a lot in it that would interest people. I mean, every time we get a document dump... I'm thinking most recently of the litigation around Jes Staley, the banker who ended up no longer running Barclays Bank because his involvement with Jeffrey Epstein-- The correspondence, the email correspondence that emerged in that litigation between Epstein and Jes Staley was absolutely fascinating. You know, it showed you how Jeffrey Epstein dangled Prince Andrew, for example, as a sort of bait to lure wealthy and powerful men into his web. So would it be helpful for the public to see more? Unquestionably. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein remains an enigma and a mystery and a, and, you know, a blot, frankly, on American history. And so I think people are right to want to know as much as they can about who he really was and what really happened to him.

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JP: The administration this week, also through the DOJ, officially kind of reaffirmed the finding that his death was a suicide. This is obviously a controversial claim. So many people in Trump's orbit have fielded theories of every variety, right, about Epstein's death, I don't have to tell you that. What did you make of the suicide finding?

VICKY WARD: Well, I do think-- I've got to know Reid Weingarten, who was one of Jeffrey Epstein's attorneys in 2019. And initially, he found it hard to believe that Epstein committed suicide. But over time, he changed his mind. And I think -- and this is, you know, pure gut talking -- I'm not shocked that Jeffrey Epstein wanted to end his life. Because even if he had got off, the shame and the stigma of what he was indicted for would have ended his life in the way that he wanted to live it. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein operated a concierge service for the world's plutocracy. And there's no way after that very public indictment... You know, he'd been able to shrug off the previous state charges and sentence. He'd been able to kind of shrug that off among most of the people who knew him, so they still came to visit him. But after 2019, I think people would have been gun-shy even if he'd walked away from that case, as his lawyer thought he would. So, I'm not surprised that he wanted to end his life. I mean, how he did it by himself is difficult to do -- to hang yourself, by yourself, in your cell. It wouldn't shock me if, you know, he had some help on the inside. But I'm not sure that I believe that he was murdered, just because I think his will to die was probably very, very strong.

JP: Probably worth mentioning here, the DOJ released this video this week, but uh, it has fuelled even more conspiracy, right? Because there's like a piece of time missing from it. Can you talk to me about that?

VICKY WARD: You know, she gave some explanation that she's-- I read it, but it, I mean, it sounded gibberish just even reading it. That, you know, that the tapes always have a minute missing.

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PAM BONDI: And what we learned from Bureau of Prisons was every, um, night, they redo that video. It was old, from like 1999. So every night the video is reset, and every night should have the same minute missing. So we're looking for that video to release that as well, showing that a minute is missing every night.

VICKY WARD: It sounds absurd, but I, you know, I'm prepared to take Pam Bondi's word for that. I mean, the problem here is that if you take all this at face value, Pam Bondi's mistake, and the mistake of others in the Trump administration, was to blow this all up in the first place.

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LIZ WHEELER, Conservative commentator: Pam Bondi bragged about making that cover sheet on that binder that you're showing on the screen, that reads, the most transparent administration in history, Epstein files phase one. She told us she made that. How can you square that behaviour with what she posted on the Department of Justice website on Sunday, saying, actually, there's nothing here.

VICKY WARD: I mean, they've kind of been hoist by their own petard. I mean, it was her mistake to talk about an Epstein client list [JP: Mm-hmm.] [inaudible] Fox News. And only to say, no, there isn't one. I mean, and the other problem that they've really got is that, you know, Trump and Epstein may have fallen out, but they were joined at the hip for a very, very long time. And that is a problem for the narrative here. And they're not prepared to address it. I mean, Trump has never publicly explained why he and Jeffrey Epstein fell out. But we do know, I know -- he even gave a quote to New York Magazine -- you know, 'Great guy, I hear he likes the ladies,' or whatever it is. And, you know, ten years later, his tune was very different.

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DONALD TRUMP: I had a falling out with him a long time ago. I don't think I've spoken to him for 15 years. I wasn't a fan. That I can tell you. I was not a fan of his.

VICKY WARD: But he's never given up what really happened.

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JP: It is one of the more ironic features of this story that Trump, the man that many people have looked to expose the truth about Epstein, the truth about like high-powered people caught allegedly in this trafficking web, is himself known [VICKY: Right.] to be such a -- Yeah. What came to your mind when you heard Elon Musk, one of Trump's formerly most ardent allies publicly saying that he himself was in the Epstein file?

VICKY WARD: Well, I thought two things. You know, one, as I've mentioned, of course, Trump is in the Epstein files. Because if I'm in the Epstein files just because of my relationship as a reporter, for sure Donald Trump is going to be in the Epstein files. We know that. I mean, his name was mentioned in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial as being someone on the planes. So, by the way, one of the people whom Jeffrey Epstein met with, and it's emerged in the whole [unclear] litigation, was Elon Musk. And that was in the years after Jeffrey Epstein got out of jail in 2009, 2010. So I thought this is Elon Musk stirring the pot, because as we know, he's fallen out with Trump. And this plan, he's trying to form a new political party. And there's, there's nothing but upside here for Elon Musk.

JP: Mm-hmm. What about this story in particular is it that you think people and particularly conservatives find so compelling?

VICKY WARD: You know, that's-- it's an interesting one, well, because it's the MAGA crowd, right? It's not necessarily all conserve- [JP: Yeah.] conserve--

JP: The MAGA crowd [VICKY: Yeah.] have been -- sorry. Up until now, you know, people now deep in this administration, we talked about Pam Bondi, but, you know, Dan Bongino, the deputy director of the FBI, Kash Patel, the head of the FBI. I mean, these people were pushing this stuff.

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GLENN BECK: Who has Jeffrey Epstein's...

KASH PATEL: Black book?

GLENN BECK: Black book.

KASH PATEL: FBI.

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KASH PATEL: And to me, that's a thing I think President Trump should run on. On day one, roll out the black book.

KASH PATEL: This is another thing they do. They overclassify every-- And I'm telling you, as a former number two in the IC, they overclassify 50% of the stuff there. To protect the deep state.

VICKY WARD: Yeah. [JP: Yeah.] Well, ironically, for the same reason that now people are so frustrated. Because among the MAGA crowd, there's a deep mistrust of what they call the deep state. And there were so many unanswered around who Jeffrey Epstein was. I mean, it seemed so unlikely on the face of it that a guy who never had a college degree, who was kicked out of Bear Stearns would, you know, suddenly become at the centre of the world. And it was the world. I mean, you know, you had Israelis, you had Gulf state leaders, African leaders. It seemed so extraordinary that this man would be at the centre of the web of all of them for no reason. I mean, just because they liked him? There were women floating around? You know, there were so many question marks around why he'd evaded justice the first time around, why he evaded justice the second time around by dying. The extraordinary circumstances of the lack of the security cameras and the guards going AWOL. So, so many questions that I think it became a very useful narrative for the MAGA crowd. You know, when anyone ever said, well, you know, the deep state, what are you talking about? What's nefarious about it? Jeffrey Epstein became a very easy and obvious answer.

JP: Mm-hmm. I mean, now that these guys are in government, they're kind of walking away from this. They're saying nothing to see here. And do you think it's... I mean, you kind of intimated before that they haven't really figured out how to answer some of the Trump stuff. But I mean, like, what do you make of this walk-back? Is it because they got into these positions of power and there actually wasn't anything or enough to see there or, you know, how are you thinking about it?

VICKY WARD: Well, I have to believe that Pam Bondi misspoke in May when she talked about the client list, right? And, I mean, the whole thing was so kind of hand-fisted right from the beginning. Gathering the influencers there, handing them binders, which I can tell you had nothing...

JP: Yeah. But even the client list aside, she said, oh, there's so much more coming.

VICKY WARD: So, I mean, if you give her and the rest of them the benefit of the doubt, it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate for them either way. Because either they're covering something up, which is bad news, and if they're not, they're just incompetent. So this is not, this is not a win for the Trump administration.

[laughter]

JP: I know that there are a lot of people kind of in that MAGA universe that are really angry right now. You know, former Fox News star Megyn Kelly has been heavily critical of Pam Bondi.

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MEGYN KELLY: Pam Bondi has definitely made multiple inconsistent statements, and I'm sorry, but she does not deserve the benefit of my good opinion and I'm not prepared to give it to her.

JP: Liz Wheeler, Alex Jones have talked about feeling betrayed, humiliated, used as collateral damage.

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ALEX JONES: Pam Bondi. All of it. All those videos of her saying, yeah, she's seen the videos, it's all coming out, and then now it doesn't exist. I mean, what? What?

JP: But like, one question I have is, do you expect there to be any like material consequences here for Trump as we head into the midterms? Like, conservative media personality, Liz Wheeler, said on X, quote, "Trump is massively misreading his base on this one. It could cost him the midterms." She referred to the Epstein issue as foundational for the base, and quote, "Something [is] fishy about the Epstein stuff. His racket. His death. His friends. His intel connections. Patting us on the head & telling us "nothing to see here" is infuriating." "Forgive us if we refuse to believe government officials now who are asking us to believe a narrative that is contradicted by the evidence" that "we can see." Like, do you think that that's actually going to translate into real world consequences?

VICKY WARD: It could, but I don't, I don't think that the Trump base is suddenly going to vote Democratic. But they could just not show up for him, yeah. [JP: Yeah.] 100% it could. I mean, they, they have done this to themselves. And now, it turns out when you question systems, people question systems. And now the system that's being questioned is theirs.

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JP: One of the most enduring pieces of mythology associated with Epstein, his case and his death, are accusations that he had connections to or was an intelligence agent for a foreign government, particularly Israel's Mossad intelligence services or the CIA. Pam Bondi was asked about them in a straightforward way this week.

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REPORTER: Alex Acosta, he allegedly said that he did work for an intelligence agency. So could you resolve whether or not he did, and also, could you say why there was a minute missing from the jailhouse tape on the night of his death?

PAM BONDI: Yeah, sure. If I could--

DONALD TRUMP: Hey Pam, could I just answer. Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? This guy's been talked about for years. Do you want to waste the time on a-- do you feel like answer--

PAM BONDI: I, I don't mind answering.

DONALD TRUMP: I mean, I can't believe you're asking...

JP: As someone who's been looking at this story for such a long time, how have you thought about this particular accusation connecting Epstein to like some sort of foreign or domestic intelligence service?

VICKY WARD: Right. To be acting for another government, you know, you can do that in different capacities. You don't need to be on the government's official payroll. And I would be surprised if Jeffrey Epstein was on any government's official payroll. He didn't need to be. This was a man who walked in the middle of the global elite. And he was what they call a hyperfixer. He was able to pass information in a casual private setting in his homes, that were like mini castles, and the island. But when countries were not officially talking to each other, Jeffrey Epstein was able to talk to everybody, which does put him in a position of considerable power. We know that he also was an informer for the U.S. government in a very big financial case. He had worked with a guy called Steve Hoffenberg, who's now dead, but who back in the 1990s was indicted for committing the biggest Ponzi scheme in American history prior to Bernie Madoff. And Jeffrey Epstein was part of the scheme, and he absolutely flipped on him. And Steve Hoffenberg went off to jail, penniless, for 20 years, and he always believed that not only had Jeffrey Epstein flipped on him, he'd taken all his money as well. Where the Mossad comes in is because Ghislaine Maxwell's father, you know, he was a double, triple agent. Robert Maxwell was, in some ways, similar to Jeffrey Epstein, and in many other ways not. I mean, one of them... You know, Robert Maxwell was a highly visible person, who moved around the world sort of openly. And Jeffrey Epstein was invisible. But the idea of the network around them was the same. But I think that, you know, Robert Maxwell definitely thought of himself as working for the Israeli government. And that's different.

JP: Hm. From your perspective, is this story kind of over now? Or do you think that there's still another big shoe to drop?

VICKY WARD: Well, Jayme, I wish this story were over now. I began reporting on this guy in 2002. It was a miserable experience. And if you had told me then, that in 2025, the world would still be obsessed by Jeffrey Epstein -- back in 2002, no one ever heard of him -- I would have been shocked and appalled. You know, there is still so much we don't know about him that I sort of have to believe there is way more to come. Because when you have a web of people around you in the way that he did, that are bold-faced names, information eventually has a way of getting out. So we shall see.

JP: And I don't wanna leave it just hanging there. I actually didn't get a chance to ask you it earlier. Just, can you tell us just briefly why it was such a miserable experience for you?

VICKY WARD: You know, he would phone me up on pretty much a daily basis. And he would say, if I don't like what you're gonna put in this story, you know, I'm gonna have a witch doctor place a curse on your unborn children. I was pregnant with twins at the time. And then he would say, "And that's off the record." And, you know, some of the threats were really unpleasant and some were sort of a bit stupid. Like, you know, I'm going to make sure your children never get into a private school in New York. But we didn't know anything about Jeffrey Epstein. And then the editor of the magazine, I think at some point found a bullet on his doorstep. And, you know, it emerged that as we were fact-checking the piece, he appeared in the offices of Vanity Fair. I went into labour early and I was so worried that he was coming for them that my husband and I had to ask for extra security on the neonatal ward where they were. So, yeah, it was not a pleasant experience.

JP: Vicky, wow. You've had quite a, quite a run here. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me.

VICKY WARD: Thank you, Jayme.

[Music: Theme]

JP: All right, that is all for today. Front Burner was produced this week by Matthew Amha, Allie Jaynes, Joyita Sengupta, Lauren Donnelly, Mackenzie Cameron, Sam McNulty, and Matt Meuse. Our YouTube producer is Jon Lee. Our music is by Joseph Shabason. Our senior producer is Elaine Chau, our executive producer is Nick McCabe-Lokos, and I'm Jayme Poisson. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you next week.

For more Front Burner transcripts, please click here.

Case closed on the 'Epstein list'? - Transcript

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