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Front Burner Transcript for May 23, 2025

Host: Jayme Poisson

JAYME POISSON: Hey everybody, I'm Jayme Poisson.

[Music: Theme]

JP: This weekend marks five years since George Floyd, an unarmed black man in Minneapolis, was murdered by Derek Chauvin, a white police officer. The video of his final moment, saying that he can't breathe and calling for his mom while pinned under Chauvin's knee, reached people around the world. What followed was the biggest protest movement in American history.

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd of protesters: Justice!]

PROTESTER: [on loudspeaker] When do you want it?

[Crowd of protesters: Now!]

PROTESTER: [on loudspeaker] What do you want?

[Crowd of protesters: Justice!]

PROTESTER: [on loudspeaker] When do you want it?

[Crowd of protesters: Now!]

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PROTESTER 2: [shouting] If we don't get it?

[Crowd of protesters: Shut it down!]

PROTESTER 2: [shouting] And if we don’t get it?

[Crowd of protesters: Shut it down!]

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IAN HANOMANSING: Across the United States, we are watching protests unfold. Curfews now in effect in Washington, Minneapolis, Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, among other places.

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NEWS PRESENTER: Protesters took to the streets of Canada's largest city again today. We've seen these demonstrations across North America and around the world...

JP: George Floyd's name became synonymous with the Black Lives Matter movement, that had already been calling for the end of police killings of unarmed Black people and justice and accountability from police for years. Soon we saw politicians, celebrities, CEOs, all join the call for racial equity in every corner of society. And in 2021, Derek Chauvin was found guilty of second- and third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter. It was seen as a rare win and another sign of meaningful change. Five years later, where are we now? To unpack all of this and where we're headed, I'm speaking with Attorney General of Minnesota, Keith Ellison. He led the state murder prosecution against Derek Chauvin, and went on to write about it in the fight for justice in his book Break the Wheel: Ending the Cycle of Police Violence. Before he was attorney general, he served for 12 years as a Democratic member of the House of Representatives, and he was the first Muslim to be elected to U.S. Congress.

[Music: Theme]

JP: Mr. Ellison, thank you so much for coming onto the show today.

KEITH ELLISON: Well, call me Keith, and I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

JP: Thanks so much, Keith. Okay, so before we get into the state of policing now, I just want to look back at this time five years ago. You are someone who has followed the issue of police violence, particularly against Black Americans, for a long time now. And just, what went through your mind when you first saw the video of George Floyd's murder?

KEITH ELLISON: Well, let me tell you, I've been following the issue of, um, official, uh, violence from agents of the state, from all communities, for years. Uh, in fact, before George Floyd was killed, me and the commissioner of corrections did a comprehensive task force over two years on reducing deadly force encounters with police. Despite the fact that I've been a lawyer for 35 years -- I've prosecuted excessive force cases as a civil lawyer, I've defended people in criminal defence cases where they have been victims of unfair police conduct -- I was shocked. [JP: Mm.] I, I -- But despite the fact that I've watched and looked at this issue and studied it more than most, wrote a book on it, I was utterly shocked. I was slack-jawed and couldn't believe it. I, I first saw it, first thing in the morning. You know, it was 8 p.m. on Decem-- on, excuse me, May 25th, 2020, when George Floyd was killed. I saw it at 4:45 in the morning on May 26th, because a courageous young woman named Darnella Frazier uploaded her video at around 1:48 in the morning. I saw it, and my staff said, you gotta watch this first. And I just, I just couldn't keep my eyes off it. I watched it three, four, five, six, seven times. I don't know how many, but I just kept rewatching it. And at one point I started counting the number of times that he yelled for his mother, yelled to breathe.

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GEORGE FLOYD: [strained voice] I can't breathe! Mama!

MALE OFFICER: Get up and get in [GEORGE FLOYD: Mama!] the car right!

GEORGE FLOYD: [strained voice] I can't!

KEITH ELLISON: And then I had looked at the timestamp when he stopped yelling for his mother, didn't say anything else. And then the people who were there assembled yelling, "Take his pulse! Get off of him! What are you doing? Stop this!"

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MALE SPEAKER: He's not responsive right now, bro. [CROSS-TALK] You're definitely a bum, bro.

FEMALE SPEAKER: Check his pulse right now and tell me what it is. Tell me what his pulse is right now.

MALE SPEAKER 2: Check for the pulse!

KEITH ELLISON: And I just couldn't believe it. And I knew that if I was waking up to this, then millions of other Americans would be too. And I had a feeling that we were in for some, some -- that the community would not accept this.

JP: Yeah, well, I just wonder if you could tell me more about that, right. Because as you know, it sparked the biggest and long-lasting uprisings in Amer-- that America has ever seen. And it spread around the world. Uh, local governments and corporations adopted and funded DEI initiatives and vowed to do their part in ending systemic racism. So, you know, just if you could tell me a bit more about why you think it brought on the reckoning that it did.

KEITH ELLISON: Well, one thing you can't exclude from this is that video, and how it was posted right away. The graphic nature of it. And let me just tell you, I've dealt with a lot of cases where they-- where there's a shooting incident. Now, a shooting incident often don't -- I mean, there have been horrific... You know, Sonya Massey comes to mind. Laquan McDonald shooting incident. Walter Scott. They come to mind. But the ones where there's not a shooting, but there's a prolonged, protracted injury to the victim, where the officer could have stopped it at nearly any time, but chose not to. So think of Rodney King -- beat 57 times over the course of several minutes by four officers, and 17 other officers stood around and watched it. And then think about this, where you had three officers on top of George Floyd, who are inflicting pain on him, obviously, over the course of five minutes or so. And then he goes silent, but then the crowd really elevates their voices. And then that lasts for a longer time. He has no pulse; he's not being rendered aid. And at any given point along the line, those officers, and especially Derek Chauvin, could have said, Hey, wait a minute. Turn him on his side. Hey minute-- Hey, wait a minute, let's start, you know some procedure. If we're legitimately here trying to restrain somebody who we suspected of a crime, why wouldn't we try to revive him? Well, they didn't, because their position was never legitimate. And and so, because it was long, protracted, and we saw him die slowly on that video over five minutes, I think that [unclear], that really just fuelled the outrage of people, because it seemed cruel, unjust. You couldn't justify it by saying, well, I thought he was reaching for something. There's none of that.

[music]

JP: You were eventually tasked with leading the prosecution of Chauvin in the murder of George Floyd. Convictions of police officers, as you know well, are rare. Um, in the case of Breonna Taylor, for example...

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NEWS PRESENTER 2: The 26-year-old emergency technician was in her apartment when police serving a no-knock warrant entered. Her boyfriend fired a shot thinking they were intruders. The officers returned fire, and they killed Breonna Taylor. Last year, a federal judge...

JP: ...none of the officers involved were ultimately charged with her killing. And Derek Chauvin was, of course, found guilty of all charges, including second-degree murder. And just what kind of impact were you hoping that that verdict would make?

KEITH ELLISON: Well, let me just tell you, I always said that this is not gonna bring about justice, but it will bring about accountability. Justice is a bigger question. Justice is about passing the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act. Justice is about reducing the number of people killed in officer-involved situations. Justice is about, you know, changing the policies, right? Over time, that make this such a predictable, tragic incident. And we're still on the road to justice after George Floyd, quite frankly. Um, I did know that if we didn't win, the signal would be, it's okay to kill people this way. It's okay to kill African American people this way. It's fine, it's all right. We don't need to change anything. That would have been the message, and that would have made our society infinitely worse. It would have been the message that, open season on the George Floyds of the world. It would have, it would have meant Derek Chauvin, who had 17 prior excessive force complaints, can -- now he has another one, you know? And nobody cares. Um. It would have sent a very negative message. I also will tell you, I think it increased... it would have increased crime. And let me tell you why. Because once you destroy the relationship between police and community, people don't trust. And if they don't trust, they don't open the door. If the police are canvassing the neighbourhood for a robber or a killer or somebody, people don't open the door. They don't tell you what they heard. They don't tell you what they know. They don't tell you -- They don't respond to, um, to, to uh, subpoenas as much. They don't call 9-1-1 and say, I just heard shots fired. And so as the community, uh, stops interacting with the police, people who do commit crimes, they know the relationship with the-- between the police and the community is bad, and they up their activity. And so you will see, after a horrific incident of police violence, you might see an uptick in crime, because the police step back and don't do their jobs. And because they're like, oh, I don't want anybody to accuse me of anything. Well, don't sit on somebody's neck for 10 minutes as they're begging to breathe. That's all you gotta do. And so, it would have led to more crime as well. Yeah.

JP: You mentioned the Justice in Policing Act, um, the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act. So [KEITH: Mm-hmm.] I think this was the bill that was presented by the Democrats in 2021, right? [KEITH: Yep.] And it would do some stuff like restricting the use of military weapons by police, banning the use chokeholds and no-knock warrants. It passed in the House, which was Democrat controlled at the time, but it didn't make it past the Senate, right? Like...

KEITH ELLISON: That's right. Well. Well, you know, hats off to Karen Bass, who made sure it got through the House. Uh, Cory Booker did a valiant work trying to get it through the Senate, but he had no partner because Tim Scott could not deliver. Tim Scott was supposed to be his Republican ally, and uh, Tim Scott started out saying, oh, this is important, let's do this. But he ended up just parroting, uh, you know, ridiculous tropes, uh, like this is a Defund the Police, which it really wasn't. Um. And so it ended up being stalled because of politics. So, yeah, I don't, I don't fault the Democrats on this. I do think Tim Scott could have been, should have been a man of greater integrity than he was at the moment. Hate to be tough on Tim, but that's my opinion. The inability to pass anything was a failure. Uh, let me remind your listeners that after the beating of Rodney King, in the 1994 Civil Rights Act, that's when pattern and practice, uh um, liability was passed, and the Department of Justice can do pattern and practice lawsuits. Of course, they're withdrawing from them as we speak, but the government that wants to do the right thing by its community can use pattern and practice authority. This time, Congress didn't even rise to that occasion.

[music]

JP: I think the question that I'm really trying to ask you here is where you think the United States is right now on that path to justice that you were talking about, [KEITH: Good question.] right? And maybe, maybe it's worth me saying, like, police killings in the U.S. haven't gone down, but they've increased over the last few years, right? According to Mapping Police Violence, the officers accused of beating Tyre Nichols -- an unarmed Black man in Memphis -- to death in 2023, during a traffic stop, were acquitted earlier this month. And this is another case where there is video footage of what happened, right?

KEITH ELLISON: Yeah. Well, so, the thing -- here's the thing. Based on the things that you just identified, which obviously I'm very well aware of, one might say that everything's going in the wrong direction. I would submit to you that it's more of a mixed bag than an all-bad bag, right? So I would say -- because here, in the state of Minnesota, the legislature moved to ban chokeholds, ban no-knock warrants; severely restrict high-speed chases and to strengthen the uh, something we call the POST Board. Police [sic] Officer Standards and Training now has way more teeth than it used to. We've -- In the city of Minneapolis, we went from just having a freestanding police department to a department of public safety -- which includes the police, 9-1-1, youth violence prevention, health department -- so that they can operate in a coordinated fashion. Um, and we've, and we've elected leaders who are committed to meaningful reform, committed to the long-term process. Uh, you know, I do-- I feel good about the work that Chief Brian O’Hara is doing. So, let me just -- So, so it's not all bad. In Colorado, they changed the law on qualified immunity. In Buffalo, the city of Buffalo, they passed the Cariol's Law, which mandates officers to take action when they see another officer violating the law. And there have been a number of reforms that have happened at the state and local level. So, while you are right that the number of police officer-involved deaths appears to have escalated, not declined, it's not true that nothing's happening, particularly on the local level. We need, um, folks to know more about what positive things can happen at the municipal and state level, so that they continue to take action. Because I don't -- Because let me tell you. At the end of the day, Jayme, police violence ultimately ends up in scared communities, intimidated communities, and communities where African American, particularly, are over-policed but under-protected. Under-protected is important. People like to say, oh, why are those communities so crime-ridden? Well, one reason is they have a crappy relationship with the police department because of a history of excessive force and no accountability. When you fix that problem, you're gonna have a safer community.

[music]

JP: Let me ask you, uh, your thoughts on what is happening at the federal level. J.D. Vance, at the White House last week, talked about:

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J.D. VANCE: But last year, in November, I think the American people killed the Defund the Police movement, and they used Donald J. Trump as the murder weapon. It is gone from this country, and we're never gonna let it come back. This administration...

JP: And earlier this week, the Trump administration scrapped several investigations into police departments across the U.S., as well as reform agreements for police departments where the Department of Justice found a pattern of misconduct -- that includes Louisville and Minneapolis. And last month--

KEITH ELLISON: Yeah. I live in Minneapolis, I'm well aware.

JP: Yeah, as you know, as you know. Yeah. Signed an executive order to direct the attorney general to launch a program that would provide free legal defence for officers accused of misconduct. And, you know, from your view, how are you thinking about what's happening on the federal level? What do you think the impact of all of this could be?

KEITH ELLISON: Well, I think that no doubt we'll have less safe communities. No question we'll have a higher level of violence because the relationship between police and communities will decline. No question. Um. Let me tell you, there's 18,000 police departments in America, and nearly all of them are made up of mostly people who wanna do the right thing. And because they reflect society, there's always some people who don't wanna do the right thing. They became a police officer so that they could have a licence to beat up on people and be rude, violent, and bad. Now, here's the question: will that department be dominated by the minority of bullies, or will they be dominated by the good faith guardians there to protect and serve people? That's the question. We want the officers who care, who are the-- who who stand up for people, who go the extra mile to make sure a community is safe. But when you start doing stuff like what Trump is doing, no pattern and practice investigations from the feds, uh, you commit a crime as an officer against a citizen -- don't worry about it. We got back. Um, rhetoric that is hostile, like 'When the looting starts, the shooting starts.'

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COMMENTATOR: This is interesting too, part two. "These THUGS," that is a loaded word in the United States, "are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won't let that happen." Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz, told him the military is with him. Any difficulty, we will assume control. And then, again, an extraordinary line: "when the looting starts, the shooting starts." The President of the United States...

KEITH ELLISON: He actually encouraged police officers to use force against people when he gave a speech to the Suffolk County Police Department in New York in his last session. He said, let 'em bash their head against the door, we don't care about that.

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DONALD TRUMP: And when you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see 'em thrown in, rough.

[some laughter from audience]

DONALD TRUMP: I said, please don't be too nice.

[some laughter]

DONALD TRUMP: Like when you guys put somebody in the car and you're protecting their head, you know? The way you put their hand over...

[some laughter, claps]

DONALD TRUMP: Like, don't hit their head, and they've just killed somebody. Don't hit their head. I said, you can take the hand away, okay?

[laughter from audience, applause]

KEITH ELLISON: And these are people who are just been arrested. They're not even... They're pre-trial. You don't know what happened, you know? And so, and so the-- so that kind of rhetoric is going to make our lives worse, going to sour the relationship between police and communities, and is gonna make life less livable in America. At the same time, never forget that this is the same president that pardoned 1200 hooligans who tried to overturn a democratic election and injured 140 cops. One of them lost their eye. He doesn't care about police as people. He just wants to unleash, um, racism and violence against people he doesn't like. And he's proved how he feels about anybody Black because the apartheid people can come in. The Afrikaners have-- are welcome to America, and all-- everybody else has to get out, even people who risked their lives to help our country, like the Afghanistan, uh, like people from Afghanistan. So, this is clear. He's anti-DEI. I mean, the guy is -- there's no, there's no doubting that he's just a racist. I mean, you, you've seen him disrespect the president of South Africa just the other day.

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DONALD TRUMP: ...to take land.

PRESIDENT RAMAPHOSA: No, no, no.

DONALD TRUMP: You do allow them to take land.

PRESIDENT RAMAPHOSA: No, nobody can take land--

DONALD TRUMP: And then when they take the land, they kill the white farmer. And when they kill the white farmer, nothing happens to them.

PRESIDENT RAMAPHOSA: No, no. There is quite--

DONALD TRUMP: Nothing happens to them.

PRESIDENT RAMAPHOSA: There is criminality in our country. People who do get killed, unfortunately, through criminal activity, are not only white people. The majority of them are Black people. And we have now [TRUMP: The farmers aren't Black.] been utilize--

DONALD TRUMP: The farmers are not Black.

KEITH ELLISON: So many people in his, in his administration have racial bias. He's made it -- He's trying to ban the concept of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. And so, I mean, it's pretty clear where he's coming from. My point is, Trump doesn't care about cops. Trump cares about his vision of, of a society, of creating a two-tiered society where, if you're the right colour and religious background, you get to have privileged status. And if you don't, all the be-- you know, good luck. Watch out.

JP: I was curious to get your thoughts. The administration has expanded a program that delegates immigration enforcement powers to local police. So, meaning police could screen people in jail or during police stops for immigration violations or carry out ICE warrants on someone in their custody, and [KEITH: Yeah.] do you see...

KEITH ELLISON: I see that as an--

JP: ...da-- yeah.

KEITH ELLISON: Yeah, that's a terrible policy. And why is it a terrible policy? Because again, citizens need to see their local police as their helpers, not their potential threat. And if you are a woman who may be undocumented but you're the victim of domestic violence, maybe you're not going to file that restraining order against your abuser because that might mean you have to engage with law enforcement. Right? If you are a, uh, a person who's been scammed by somebody, maybe you don't wanna call the police. Maybe you don't wanna go down to the court. And so when you mix these two functions between ICE and local law enforcement, what you do is you create a class of people who are going to be victimized by criminals, because the people who need the help of law enforcement have to think twice before they ever ask for it. Right? And this is a very dangerous situation. You have a problem here where a lot of people aren't sending their kids to school. I mean, there's no really good upside unless or until you have subscribed to the philosophy of, you know, replacement theory, and you falsely believe that somehow America's white population is being inundated and attacked and undermined by all the brown people so you think it's okay to abuse brown people. If you believe that, then you like Trump. If you think that that's a made-up story that there's no factual support for, then you've got to be against this.

[music]

JP: There has been a rumour going around that Trump will pardon Derek Chauvin's federal conviction this week ahead of the anniversary of his death. This is after, of course, high-profile figures on the right like Ben Shapiro and Marjorie Taylor Greene have called for it.

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NEWS PRESENTER 3: In a tweet this morning, the Republican congresswoman said she strongly supports Chauvin being pardoned and released from prison.

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BEN SHAPIRO: There is one person that President Trump should pardon from federal charges forthwith. It would be incredibly controversial, but I think that it's absolutely necessary. That person is Derek Chauvin. President Trump should, in fact, pardon Derek Chauvin. He should, he should pardon him his federal charges.

JP: There's no indication that he's going to do this right now -- you and I are talking Thursday afternoon. Um, but. And I know that you have even pointed out before that he would still have to serve the rest of his 22-and-a-half-year sentence in state prison, so he wouldn't get out. But um, how do you think the people in your state, particularly in Minneapolis, would react if Derek Chauvin were to be pardoned for his federal conviction?

KEITH ELLISON: They would be offended. They would be insulted. They would, you know, know that uh, that this is um, a horrible, ugly scenario. But um, they of course would protest peacefully. They would protest, you know, resolutely. But um. But it would, it would be a deep insult, there's no question. And it would insult the family of George Floyd, it would insult George Floyd's memory. Including his daughter, his brothers and his family. Uh, and we would note that. And we, uh, would, would, would understand. And it would, it would have an impact in the next election. It would have an impact in, uh, how people view Donald Trump and how they will continue to view him. So, I will tell you this. People have speculated, well, maybe he wants people to, uh, sort of overreact and, you know, maybe... or something like that, and then that'll justify him calling in the national guard or something that. I would say, well, we have to protest this. We cannot let this go by and people think that, oh, we're all right with this. No, no, no. Can't do that. But we also, uh, are going to protest peacefully, resolutely, as we do. Right?

JP: But -- yeah. You know, I know in your book, um, you talk a lot about the important role of protesters and activists in bringing about change. But, you know, I'm just looking at how pro-Palestinian student protesters have faced expulsion, arrest, threats of deportation. Do you think that another mass protest movement like the one that we saw in 2020 is even possible under the current--

KEITH ELLISON: Oh, yeah. Oh, I think it's on its way. I think we might even have more protests. Trump-- Remember, people were, people were dealing with the madness of Trump, the COVID pandemic, and then this outrageous murder of George Floyd, and people reacted. My opinion is that, um, Trump is... There will be overwhelming protests. People are already showing up in massive numbers at things. Um, I definitely think that uh, the public is going to want to express its extreme disapproval with Trump.

JP: Okay. Um, Keith, I think that's a good place for us to end. I wanna thank you so much for your time today. It was great to talk to you. I hope you'll come back on.

KEITH ELLISON: Oh, anytime. You call me and I'll show up.

[Music: Theme]

JP: All right, that is all for today. Front Burner was produced this week by Matthew Amha, Allie Jaynes, Joyita Sengupta, Lauren Donnelly, and Mackenzie Cameron. Our intern is Katie Teeling. Our video producer is Evan Aagaard, and our YouTube producer is Jon Lee. Our music producer is Joseph Shabason. Our senior producer is Elaine Chau. Executive producer, Nick McCabe-Lokos. I'm Jayme Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we will talk to you all next week.

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George Floyd's murder, what's changed in five years? - Transcript

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