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Front Burner Transcript for August 4, 2023

Host: Tamara Khandaker

TAMARA KHANDAKER: Hi, I'm Tamara Khandaker.

[Music: Theme]

TAMARA KHANDAKER: So last weekend, fans packed the Rogers Centre in Toronto for three Blue Jays games against the L.A. Angels. Tickets to the series sold out. On StubHub they were going for nearly five times what they normally go for. The draw was Angels' player Shohei Ohtani. The 29-year-old Japanese phenomenon has been called the greatest baseball player of all time. Someone who rivals the legendary Babe Ruth. And when he first stepped up to bat against the Jays on Friday, he didn't disappoint, landing a home run and winning his team the lead.

SOUNDCLIP

(Crack of the bat)

OHTANI FAN: Oh! Ohh! NO! OH MY GOD! WHAT?! Oh, my gosh... He's insane! Yooo...

TAMARA KHANDAKER: But the Angels' lead was short-lived. They ended up losing. And that's not unusual for the team: they haven't made the playoffs in nearly a decade. Last season, they lost 14 straight games, and they've only made the World Series once -- in 2002. Ben Lindbergh is a senior editor at The Ringer, and he's on the show today. We're going to talk about what makes Shohei Ohtani so impressive, how he ended up on such a mediocre team, and where he could go from here.

[Music: Theme]

TAMARA KHANDAKER: Hi, Ben.

BEN LINDBERGH: Hi.

TAMARA KHANDAKER: Hi. So, I'm not big on baseball, but I do know that being compared to Babe Ruth is a big deal.

SOUNDCLIP

SPORTS COMMENTATOR: He is to Japan what Messi is to Argentina.

SOUNDCLIP

SPORTS COMMENTATOR 2: You know, one of the best players to ever play, if not the best player to ever play the game. He truly is. You can--

SPORTS COMMENTATOR 3: No, he's not.

SPORTS COMMENTATOR 2: --say Babe Ruth -- Babe Ruth didn't do this!

SOUNDCLIP

SPORTS COMMENTATOR 4: He is. He is baseball right now. He is everything that we love about the game, he's everything we want to watch; everything that we're talking about. To me, he's transcending the sport.

TAMARA KHANDAKER: Before we get into Ohtani's career and what he's doing for the game, can you tell me more about why he's being compared to someone who's considered by many the greatest baseball player of all time?

BEN LINDBERGH: Yes, it's quite a compliment. And to find a precedent for a player like Ohtani, who hits and pitches full time at an elite level, you have to go back about a century. At that time, the talent level wasn't quite as high for various reasons. Populations were smaller, the game wasn't as international, and the major leagues were segregated into the white majors and the Negro leagues. So the competition wasn't quite as high calibre, and it was more feasible for a single star to excel at both jobs. So there were Negro leagues legends like Bullet Rogan, who did this as well as anyone. But the most famous two-way player who hit and pitched, and the most famous player, period, was Babe Ruth. And Ohtani has been the first to accomplish many of the statistical feats that Babe Ruth pulled off, in the American or National Leagues, since he did it. Maybe the most impressive thing is that in many respects he has surpassed Babe Ruth - at least as a two-way player - because Babe Ruth's career as a two-way player didn't last all that long. He was a very talented pitcher, and then he became a very talented hitter. And those two aspects of his performance didn't overlap for that long. But Ohtani has done it consistently now for a lot longer than even Babe Ruth does it.

[music]

TAMARA KHANDAKER: So this year has been especially big for Ohtani, right? You wrote that he's having a career year, and that he's kind of building the case as the greatest of all time, like you said. So where else is he standing out, and maybe standing apart, from both his predecessors and his peers?

BEN LINDBERGH: Yeah, he keeps topping himself. His rookie season in the U.S., he was Rookie of the Year. He got hurt, but it was still a mind-blowing performance that he was able to do that at all. And 2021, when he was fully healthy and fully settled in, that was the real breakout in the States, and he was the MVP that year. And then last season he was probably even better than that. And this season, he's been better than that. So he keeps raising the ceiling. He's now leading the major leagues in home runs and virtually every offensive category as a hitter, while also having a really impressive performance as a pitcher. He has the lowest opponent batting average allowed of any pitcher, for instance. So he is a standout on both sides, and he continues to do it for so long and at such a high level that, again, we're really running out of comparisons to make about him. He's just standing out so much really on both sides of the ball compared to his peers.

TAMARA KHANDAKER: Yeah, so he's breaking all these records and winning a lot of recognition, but he seems very grounded and humble for someone who's so young and so successful. What kind of personality is he on and off the field?

BEN LINDBERGH: Yeah, you could imagine him perhaps getting an inflated sense of himself, right? At getting a big head. I mean, he's preternaturally talented, but that does not appear to be the case at all. He is at all times very respectful of his opponents and his umpires; he's very courteous. You'll see him do things like stop to pick up trash on the field. When he's walking on and off, if there's some litter, or someone drops a ball or a bat, he will stoop over and pick it up for them.

SOUNDCLIP

MLB BROADCASTER: Menial stuff is certainly not beneath Shohei Ohtani. Here's the broken bat fly ball that ends the inning. And Shohei, you know, sees the shrapnel: ‘I'll get it. I got it.’ How-- Seriously, how many all-stars just blow that off and go into the dugout? We got, you know. Some people will get it for him. He does it himself.

BEN LINDBERGH: So he is unfailingly polite and respectful, but he's also a very personable player; he shows a lot of personality. He's a very GIFable player. You know, you tend to see a lot of highlights of him repeating over and over because he's very expressive.

TAMARA KHANDAKER: And he's behind a new Angels home run celebration too, right? Can you tell me what that looks like?

BEN LINDBERGH: Yeah. Every team in the majors, or almost every team in the majors, has a home run ritual these days. It's sort of a new fad. And the Angels' is that after someone hits a home run and goes back to the dugout, they put on a samurai helmet and wear it as they walk down the dugout and get congratulations from their teammates. And that, of course, was Ohtani's idea. So again, that's another example of the fact that as dedicated as he is and as serious as he is about the game, he also doesn't take it too seriously, right? He's willing to have fun. Someone who covered him in Japan who I spoke to, described him as a "baseball monk" because we just don't hear a lot about his personal life/he's just dedicated to training. But again, he is also sort of silly sometimes. You know, he is willing to poke fun at himself, and he's modest. And starting this team tradition, I think, is another example of how engaging he can be.

[music]

TAMARA KHANDAKER: So let's go back to the beginning. He grew up playing baseball; I read that he ate, slept and breathed the sport. Started out playing Little League in northern Japan, then went on to play for Hanamaki Higashi High School as a teenager, which is apparently a really great baseball high school. What kind of player was he back then?

BEN LINDBERGH: He was a really talented and promising pitcher. He got a lot of international attention when he was 18 years old and he threw a pitch that was almost 100 miles per hour. And that highlight was shared and everyone thought, oh, wow, this is a really impressive pitching prospect. At the time, he was not really known for his offensive prowess or as a potential two-way player. Because it's more common at the high school level for a future major leaguer, for someone so talented, to play both ways, right? Because you're so much better than your competition at that level if you're a truly elite talent, that often the best players can do both things and it's not as remarkable. But he certainly showed his offensive talent too and he would hit long home runs. It's just that he wasn't really hyped as a two-way player at that point. So that almost hadn't entered anyone's minds about Ohtani at that point.

TAMARA KHANDAKER: In 2012, he announced that he wasn't going to play professional baseball in Japan, and that he was going to pursue his dream of playing Major League Baseball in the U.S. And a bunch of teams tried to sign him: the Dodgers, the Rangers, Red Sox, Yankees. But he ended up staying in Japan because one Japanese team drafted him. What did they do to change his mind and get him to stay in Japan?

BEN LINDBERGH: Every Japanese team except one, said, OK, we're not going to bother drafting him. We're not going to waste a pick on this player who has said he's not going to sign with us. But the Hokkaido Nippon-Ham Fighters were the one that took a chance. And they were mavericks, really. And they thought, he's such an incredible talent. Even if it's a long shot that we'll actually convince him to sign with us, it's worth it. It's worth using the pick on him and then doing our best to persuade him. And then once they did use that pick on him, they really did a full-court press to try to persuade him to sign. And at first even they thought that there wasn't much chance that their pitch would succeed. But really they sold him on the vision of being a trailblazer. Of being the first to do this: to be a full time two-way player. And they made a presentation to him where they talked about how they could help him fulfil that dream. They also talked about how most of the NPB players who had gone on to success in the U.S., had played in NPB first. And they paid him as much as they were allowed to pay him. So the combination of all of those things persuaded him to sign with them.

[music]

TAMARA KHANDAKER: You wrote about the naysayers, and how there was so much skepticism at the beginning because he wanted to skip ahead and play professionally in the U.S. But by the end of his NPB career in 2017, how big of a deal was Ohtani in Japan?

BEN LINDBERGH: Oh, he was a huge deal. He was a rock star, really, from the day he debuted there.

SOUNDCLIP

(Stadium crowd cheering wildly)

NPB BROADCASTER: (Excitedly speaking Japanese)

BEN LINDBERGH: Massive crowds coming out to see his games; huge media contingents. When he debuted and he was still a teenager, everyone wanted to follow him and talk to him. And the team really had to protect him from that media onslaught, and would only allow him to be interviewed at certain times. And he would just sort of go from the field to the dorm to the practice facility to the field again. And that only built as his success grew. At first it was kind of a curiosity: can this guy actually pull this off? And gradually, as it became clear that, yes, he could, he was the biggest baseball star in the country, and the biggest prospect internationally anywhere in the world. So the U.S. teams certainly had their eyes on him from the very start.

[music]

TAMARA KHANDAKER: So in 2017, news breaks that Ohtani is going to move to the major leagues at the end of the Japanese league season. He's already an international superstar at this point. Super in demand. So what did that courtship process between him and MLB teams look like?

BEN LINDBERGH: It was very unusual. It was unique, like everything else about Ohtani, in that every team had a chance to sign him. Not only technically speaking, but also every team could afford to sign him. Because at the time he came over he was still just in his early 20s, and there was a rule that prohibits players from basically making the full amount of money that they could until they're 25. And because of that, there was a $20-million posting fee. In Ohtani's case, the contract that he could command because of the international signing rules and his age, was extremely limited. And so, whereas this coming offseason, for instance, when Ohtani will be a free agent, he can command as much money as he wants. And it might take $600 million or more to sign him over 10 years or 12 years. It will be some massive, probably record contract. When he first came to MLB, every team was theoretically in the running. And so they all had to make their pitch to Ohtani, and there wasn't that much separation in terms of the money they could offer him. So the sweepstakes came down to other factors. Each team had to answer a questionnaire, and make a presentation to try to convince him to sign with them.

TAMARA KHANDAKER: Wow. And so what kind of deal did he end up signing?

BEN LINDBERGH: He basically signed for the $20-million posting fee, and then the league minimum salary. So it was just a ridiculous deal, right? Because he was immediately one of the most talented players in baseball, and was not paid at all commensurate with those skills.

[music]

TAMARA KHANDAKER: He ends up signing with the Los Angeles Angels, and for people like me who don't know much about baseball, within the league, what is L.A.'s standing as a team?

BEN LINDBERGH: Yeah, they're sort of second fiddles even in Los Angeles. Because the Los Angeles Dodgers, who are located in L.A. proper, are by far the more storied franchise and more successful franchise historically. And then you have the Angels over in Anaheim, who, at that time, had the best player in baseball, Mike Trout. And still do. But that was about all that they had going for them. So their reputation then, and even more so now, was this is the team that has failed to surround the most talented player in baseball - and now the two most talented players - with enough competent supporting players to make the playoffs. So even then the Angels had not qualified for the post-season for a few years. And they have continued to fail to do so with both Trout and Ohtani, which has been sort of a notorious failure on an organizational level.

TAMARA KHANDAKER: Yeah, so they haven't been able to turn things around, and I want to return to that. But he isn't the first Japanese player to cross over from the pro league in Japan to MLB. But how has he been received in America as a Japanese player, especially as he's gotten more and more successful?

BEN LINDBERGH: Well, there was a ton of hype and attention, of course, from the start. There was the same sort of skepticism that he had faced in Japan -- that whole process repeated itself. Despite the fact that he had proved himself every way that he possibly could in Japan, there was still a contingent of doubters and evaluators who said, well, he did it there, but he'll never be able to do it here. And in his first spring training with the Angels, he struggled.

SOUNDCLIP

MLB BROADCASTER 2: Long inning here for Ohtani. He's facing just his fourth batter; he's already thrown 21 pitches.

SOUNDCLIP

MLB BROADCASTER 2: And Ohtani has been missing both high and low here. A lot of injuries a year ago.

MLB BROADCASTER 3: You know, the ankle injury was the one that affected him the most.

MLB BROADCASTER 2: And 3-1 pitch, that's nowhere close... as that fastball got away...

BEN LINDBERGH: He wasn't hitting so well. And there were articles written at the time where scouts who worked for MLB teams cast doubt on his ability to be a hitter in the big leagues, either long-term or certainly immediately. There was some talk of, oh, he'll have to go to the minor leagues and adjust before the Angels can call him up, right? So people were starting to be skeptical of whether he could do this, or even more so than they had been before. But of course, spring training stats tend not to mean all that much; you know, the games don't count and you're playing against variable competition, and it's a small sample. So I think people blew that out of proportion just because there was so much hype surrounding him at the time. And once he made the majors - I mean, week one, really, - he almost immediately set those doubts to rest about whether he could do it. Because immediately he was launching home runs.

SOUNDCLIP

(Crack of the bat)

MLB BROADCASTER 4: That's out toward right centre field... going back on it is Zimmer... At the wall - Gone!

(Crowd erupts)

MLB BROADCASTER 4: Big fly, Ohtani-san!

BEN LINDBERGH: He was throwing great games, too.

SOUNDCLIP

MLB BROADCASTER 5: Swing and a miss, down goes Olson...

(Crowd cheering)

MLB BROADCASTER 5: And tip your cap, Shohei Ohtani. You deserve it this afternoon.

BEN LINDBERGH: He was a sensation. So, there were certainly some people who said, oh, he can't be the face of baseball because of the language barrier, and that sort of thing. But quite quickly he succeeded at such a high level and also was just such a likeable guy that people really warmed to him, and wanted to tune in to see what he would do.

TAMARA KHANDAKER: So the trade deadline just passed. The Angels could have traded him; there were a lot of offers on the table, but they decided to keep him ahead of the playoffs. And now the stakes are high because his contract is up at the end of the season and he'll become a free agent so he can play wherever he wants. And he said he wants to win. So what do you think -- is his potential being wasted with L.A.? Could he be better off with another team?

BEN LINDBERGH: I think his potential is being wasted on the organizational level. In the sense that if you have this all-time great player, in addition to his teammate Mike Trout, and you can't put a good enough roster around them to make the playoffs, that is certainly a failing. And it's disappointing, just as someone who enjoys watching him play and for baseball fans in general, that once you get to the playoffs and the games get so exciting, that he has not been there. He has not had a chance to excel on that stage. However, I wouldn't say that his potential has been wasted on an individual level, because, of course, he has fulfilled every hope and expectation for him that he possibly could have. And to the Angels' credit, they have fully enabled him to do that, right? There are perhaps some teams that would have bought into those doubts. And there were doubters not just about his offensive potential, but also people who said, hey, pitchers who've come over from Japan in the past, that they haven't been durable, they haven't lasted. Which doesn't really stand up to scrutiny if you study it. But the Angels fully believed in him. And to the extent that we can tell why he actually picked the Angels initially, it seems to be in large part because they said, 'We believe in you and we will let you continue to indulge this dream.' And to their credit, not only did they let him continue to play two ways initially, but even after he got hurt and there were renewed cries for him to specialize, they still said, no, we're going to let him do what he wants to do. And eventually they took all limitations off him. Initially, they had some restrictions on how much he could pitch or hit, or he had to have days off before and after he pitched. Nowadays they just take their cues from him. And I would imagine that he is grateful for that. I don't know whether that will be enough, though, to overcome the fact that he wants to win. And he hasn't really given any hints about any particular place he wants to play. We don't know exactly what his specific criteria is, but he has made comments to the effect of 'It's disappointing not to be playing with a contending team. I would like to win.' And if that is his priority, then there are a lot of other teams that will have a stronger claim to that than the Angels do.

TAMARA KHANDAKER: I know there are some Blue Jays fans who are hopeful that he'll come here. When I was reading up on Shohei Ohtani, I came across a lot of pieces that talked about how baseball's been dying a slow death - in America at least - and what a player like Shohei Ohtani could do for the game itself. What do you think about that? What does Ohtani mean for baseball?

BEN LINDBERGH: Yeah, people have been saying that baseball is dying since the 19th century, so that's kind of a long-running story. But in a larger sense, having a star like Ohtani has certainly helped, I think, to raise baseball's profile because baseball has a very strong following, of course, in the States and internationally. In some places, even stronger. But it has been a regional sport in the U.S., really, where fans tend to follow their own team and don't pay attention to the sport on a national level. Ohtani, though, has transcended that. And of course, every team, every fan base can dream for now that Ohtani could be playing for them next year, right? I mean, you can't take anyone out of the running. And Blue Jays fans are dreaming about that, I'm sure. I'm sure every team's fans are dreaming about that, because again, he hasn't ruled anyone out.

TAMARA KHANDAKER: OK, Ben, it was so nice to hear your enthusiasm. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was great to talk to you.

BEN LINDBERGH: Oh, my pleasure. Nothing I'd rather talk about than Ohtani. I've been covering baseball and watching baseball for years and years, and I have never been so surprised by anyone or so delighted by anyone as Shohei Ohtani and what he's accomplished.

[Music: Theme]

TAMARA KHANDAKER: All right. That's all for this week. Front Burner was produced by Imogen Birchard, Derek Vanderwyk, Lauren Donnelly, Matt Meuse, Elaine Chau, and Joyita Sengupta. Our sound design was by Will Yarr. Our music is by Joseph Shabason. Our executive producer is Nick McCabe-Lokos. And I'm Tamara Khandaker. Thank you so much for listening. Front Burner is back next week.

How Shohei Ohtani is changing Major League Baseball - Transcript

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