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Front Burner Transcript for June 20, 2025

Host: Jayme Poisson

JAYME POISSON: Hey everybody, I'm Jayme Poisson.

[Music: Theme]

JP: So last week I spent a few days in Three Hills, Alberta, a town of about 3400 people. It's about 90 minutes northeast of Calgary. I was with our producer, Elaine Chau, and our colleague, longtime political reporter based in Calgary, Jason Markusoff. As we've discussed quite a bit on the show recently, there is a group of Albertans who want to see a referendum on the issue of separation soon. And Alberta Premier Danielle Smith has just made it much easier for them to do that. We chose Three Hills because, well, I'll let Jason explain from our car ride into town.

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JASON MARKUSOFF: We had to leave Calgary to do a proper episode to talk to separatists because there are separatists, there is separatism sentiment within the big cities, Calgary and Edmonton, but it's mostly a rural, small-town sentiment. In the same way that conservatism runs deeper outside of the big cities, so does the separatist sentiment. It's there where people feel way disconnected from Ottawa, more frustrated with the Liberals, more, uh, supported by Conservative politicians and conservative rural values. So it's there that the separatist movement bleeds the deepest.

[music]

JP: The other reason that we chose Three Hills is because it's in the political crosshairs like no other place in the province right now. There is a provincial byelection on Monday -- so June 23^rd -- where a separatist party, the Alberta Republican Party, is running a candidate. So people here will get to say, in some way, yes or no to separation and separatist sentiment.

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[Town hall chatter]

JP: All right, so this is uh, just like any, any municipal town hall. There's a stage here. Lots of chairs set up and... I think we're going to sign in here.

TOWN HALL WORKER: Hi.

JP: Yep. Hi.

TOWN HALL WORKER: You have to sign in.

JP: Sure. Sure, we're actually with the CBC.

TOWN HALL WORKER: Okay.

JP: So, I can do -- You've already signed in?

SPEAKER: Yeah.

TOWN HALL WORKER 2: We've got an Enter To Win [JP: Great.] for a free Alberta flag.

JP: Thank you.

TOWN HALL WORKER 2: Oh, are you press?

JP: Yeah, we're actually with CBC. I'm Jayme.

TOWN HALL WORKER 2: Welcome! [JP: Thank you.] I'm so glad you're here. I've been covered...

JP: Alberta flags are pretty big here. There was a big Republic of Alberta flag as we walked into a quote, "independence discussion" in Three Hills. Events like this have been popping up all over the province. There are about 150 people here, and a handful of speakers are making the case for separation. There's someone from the Alberta Prosperity Project, which is collecting signatures for a petition to get a referendum on the ballot. Cam Davies, leader of the separatist Alberta Republican Party who is trying to get elected in the riding's upcoming byelection, rallied for votes.

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CAM DAVIES: We have a desperate need right now in Alberta for a course correction. It's a correction of the heart, but it's also a correction of the government. Because we are the government. Each and every one of you. That's how it should be. And so if we don't hold accountability as a priority, if we don't hold the people that we elect to do what they say they're going to do, then we've lost the plot. Alberta is in a toxic, abusive relationship with Ottawa. As a show of hands, how many in this room believe that we should give Mark Carney a chance?

[Some murmuring and laughter from the audience]

CAM DAVIES: We've got one, okay, I'll accept that. That's okay. There's always one.

JP: You really got a sense that there was a lot at stake for the separatism cause here. If Davies wins the byelection, he would be the only separatist in the legislature. It would bring provincial, national, and even international attention to what they're trying to do. Interestingly, Three Hills has been down this road before. The only other time a separatist was elected in Alberta was 1982, when Gord Kesler won basically the same riding. Kesler is actually at this event too, and his speech got some of the biggest cheers of the night.

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GORDON KESLER: And by the way, I was elected as a separatist, and now it's not politically correct to say I'm a separatist. I'm separatist.

[Applause from audience]

GORDON KESLER: But the point is, we're called separatists. But the federal government abandoned Alberta a long time ago.

[Some applause]

GORDON KESLER: A long time. They have separated in every way -- socially, culturally, financially. The list goes on and on. They have separated from the values that we as Alberta have been raised with. So they are the separatists.

JP: So I think Gord's dirty word comments have a bit of a double meaning. Sure, lots of people look at separatism in Alberta as a negative thing on the whole. But also, within the movement to separate, people often prefer to use the word 'independence' because they think it has a less negative connotation. Anyhow, we make the rounds looking for people to chat with. We walked up to Jackie and Ryan, mother and son from Sundry, an hour west of here. Jason noticed that she was wearing a "More Alberta, Less Ottawa” T-shirt.

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["Alberta Bound" by Gordon Lightfoot playing]

JACKIE: It means to me that Alberta is a province, has smarts, doesn't have to depend on Ottawa. Like we're tired of listening to Ottawa boss us around. We are, we are-- we can be an independent province. Back then I didn't think that.

JP: Back then when you got the sweatshirt you didn't think that?

JACKIE: I thought: we're strong, we're going to stand up for ourselves within Canada. I don't think it can happen anymore.

JP: Why?

JACKIE: Why do you think?

JP: I'm here because I want to know what you think.

JACKIE: Because the Laurentian--

RYAN: Because it's been 80 years plus of the same old problems with Ottawa's overreach.

JASON MARKUSOFF: When did it switch then from More Alberta, Less Ottawa, to More Alberta, No Ottawa?

JACKIE: Well, as soon as Trudeau did his 'I'm outta here.' And then he brought in somebody else that's gonna control everything. Like he did not represent the West. He never did. And we still don't have anybody that's representing the West. It's quite obvious. Even the people from the East are saying, yeah, like you guys are being trod on, like come on.

["Alberta Bound" fades up then down]

JP: Have you kind of thought about the practicalities of moving on?

JACKIE: No, that's what we need to find out, isn't it? Yeah. I think there's a lot of things that are said that what possibly can happen. But we don't know that. Who's gonna-- Is he gonna pull the Emergencies Act on us? Is he gonna, like who knows? They're capable of doing anything. Guess what? They've done it before. Talking about the truckers’ convoy, right? So.

RYAN: Are you talking like how the expense of everything if uh...

JP: Yeah, I mean, the federal infrastructure, the social services that are so intertwined with the feder-- the fact that Alberta is a landlocked province. Um. The fact that business leaders are saying that, um, it could dampen investment, foreign investment in the province like what happened in Quebec. Like those kind of practicalities.

RYAN: Well, I think Quebec has a different situation than us. They want to be, uh, their own culture. They had demands for that. Um, and that's fine. They can have their own culture. But we're our own people out here. We send billions of dollars every year out to Ottawa, they dole it out to Quebec and other have-not provinces, and we don't get nothing back for it. So I think it's time for us to stand up for ourselves, and uh, be our own. You know, make decisions with our own money and not spend it in Ottawa and Quebec and their happiness.

JASON MARKUSOFF: This kind of separation is more than just, if Alberta goes through with it, it's more than just, you know, a four-year political term. You know, that -- You know, Carney can come, Poilievre or the next Conservative leader can come in. I guess I wonder about how you feel about the permanence of what Alberta could do if it separated. That it's like, there's no... Like it's hard to go back. Yeah, exactly.

JACKIE: Yay!

RYAN: Yeah.

JASON MARKUSOFF: Yeah?

JACKIE: We don't want to go back.

["Try That in a Small Town" by Jason Aldean fades up then out]

JP: So this room full of people, it wasn't exactly a local crowd. A local counsellor and the mayor were there to kind of check out the vibe, and they told us that they recognized maybe around a quarter of the room. Jason mentioned that he recognized people from other events he'd been to around the province. He likened it a bit to Deadheads, who would follow the Grateful Dead around. Separation superfans. But we did find and speak to people who lived in Three Hills. One of them was Sonja Farrell, who was serving coffee at the event.

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JASON MARKUSOFF: Did I hear you say earlier that you, you were going to wear your Canada hat here?

SONJA FARRELL: Yeah. [laughs] I was thinking about it, but you know what, I just decided that I'm just going to wear the red shirt.

JP: Sonja moved to Three Hills in 2003 from Mississauga because she wanted a quieter, less crowded life. She's got two daughters, 18 and 20, who were raised here.

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JP: So just tell me a little bit about what brought you here tonight.

SONJA FARRELL: Okay. Well, I think that--

JP: Big question I feel like.

SONJA FARRELL: It is a big question. [JP: Yeah.] There have been a lot of policies that have kept Albertans back from the opportunities that would have been easy in the East. One of my first jobs that I had when I got out here was I was working at Canada Post. That depot right there. And the first thing that I was asked to do was wear a mask. And when I talked to a local doctor he was able to acquire for me a mask exemption. And I was basically told that I could not work in the office without wearing a mask, or relinquish my health records and that would verify that I was indeed exempt. Which I think has been the erosion of our personal privacy.

JP: How is it that your own experiences, um, through COVID, obviously, and then also these other broader observations about Alberta, how is it that they've kind of led you to this location though, where independence is on the table, right?

SONJA FARRELL: There's a lot of money that has been leaving Canada for various foreign entities, but now we're dealing with misspending of so much of our taxpayer money that I'm getting to the idea that this isn't something that's just a Canadian issue. It's systemic. I see it globally, where all these countries are coming to a place of being financially bankrupt. We're being bought and paid for, piece meal...

JP: There's this deep distrust of big international institutions, like central banks and the World Economic Forum, running through this conversation. She's also really concerned with illegal immigration into the country.

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SONJA FARRELL: So to me, I see Alberta being a bit of a beachhead, a place where we can keep that last refuge of freedom, or at least start it, so that there is freedom in Canada. Because I think that freedom is going to be a thing of the past.

JP: So if there was a referendum on the issue, you would vote to secede tomorrow?

SONJA FARRELL: Oh, oh yes. Yes, indeed. Yes. Absolutely.

JP: Um, the practicalities of doing it, right? Like, do you think they can be ironed out in a way where Alberta comes out in a good place, right? The fact that you would have to buy back all this federal infrastructure. You know, several business leaders have raised the concern that people might not want to invest here. I guess I'm just wondering, people like yourself or... What would you say to people that, you haven't really thought this through, right?

SONJA FARRELL: No. The oil, the oil still gets out of Alberta. It still manages to find its way down to Texas. It'd be wonderful if we found other ways to get it to the East Coast. There is definitely a demand for our, um, our gas, natural gas. And um, I think that more countries will want to invest in Alberta for that.

JP: If you separate?

SONJA FARRELL: I think so. I think so. I don't think that they're going to stop, um, wanting our natural gas because it's a means of heat.

JP: Just what are your concerns around, do you have any real concerns around separation, right? Because, and I say this with no judgment.

SONJA FARRELL: Yeah. I don't see any judgement from you.

JP: It's like, it's like a radical thing to do. You know, I don't mean to use that word in a judgmental way. Like it's a, it's like a... it's an extreme thing to do, right, to secede--

SONJA FARRELL: Well, it's not a new thing. [JP: Yeah.] There are many countries that have done similar, you know. And so--

JP: Yeah. And I would say that would also be a, a radical thing, right?

SONJA FARRELL: And, and hopefully without the violence. I would hope that as Canadians that we could actually, you know, have the conversation of saying, well, you know, things aren't working out particularly well for us, we've been waiting for a very long time for things to change. Is it worth it? I think so, especially when I do see a lot of values being disintegrated and a lot of other people's ideologies and values being foisted upon me.

JP: And just, when you got up there and spoke in front of the auditorium and you said that it's time that people need to start talking about poli-- this is what you're talking about.

SONJA FARRELL: Politics and religion. Like we can't shy away from these questions because they're hugely important, of, why are we here? Do we actually have a purpose?

JP: And just, like how religion plays into your views on independence. Do you feel like if Alberta was an independent nation, you would be more free to follow those values? Or-- Like I'm just, I'm just trying--

JP: We paused here, because this man walked up to Sonja to whisper something in her ear. Turns out, it was about us.

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SONJA FARRELL: Yeah, I know, I know.

JP: The CBC.

SONJA FARRELL: Yes. He's a Grade Five teacher at the local Christian elementary school.

JP: And he's saying it's the CBC, you've gotta be careful.

SONJA FARRELL: Yeah, and I knew that. You introduced yourself, so there was no surprise there. And um, really, when it comes down to it, the media can put their spins on things, and I don't know what you will do with my words, but hopefully they will accomplish my sentiments.

JP: That would, that would be our hope as well.

JP: Sonja actually says that she's a proud Canadian. But given all the concerns that she's mentioned, I asked her whether this is really about removing herself from a country that she doesn't recognize anymore.

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SONJA FARRELL: Remove myself from the Canada. I think if anything, I want to provide a place where there is still those Canadian values that people can come to. And I welcome Canadians to come to Alberta.

[music]

JP: So, look, there's no polling that any of us have seen on the question of separatism in Three Hills specifically. We do know that provincially, the polling shows around 30% of the province expresses support for going it alone. But it's higher in rural and small-town Alberta. We drive around residential parts of the town and Jason knocks on a few doors. And for sure, there are red signs up around town for Cam Davies, the separatist candidate. Though I would caution anyone from reading too much into that.

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PAT ELLIOTT: I am Pat Elliot. The red sign on my lawn is because someone come and, and was telling me about this fella, his name is Cam. Anyway, he was telling me about this stuff and I'm like, yeah, okay, you could put a sign on my lawn. But I don't support the idea of Alberta separating from the rest of Canada because Alberta is an integral part of Canada.

JASON MARKUSOFF: You know, it's funny, I was -- the reason I came here was we were staying over at the Best Western, and I was going for a morning jog. And I jogged past your house and I said, oh, here must be some separatists.

PAT ELLIOTT: No, I am definitely not a separatist. I'm Alberta born and bred and and I've lived here most of my life and, yeah.

JASON MARKUSOFF: You have an attachment to Canada all the same.

PAT ELLIOTT: Yes. Canada is... Like I have a daughter that lives in P.E.I. Is she going to be needing a passport to come and visit me? Or do I need one to go visit her? I should hope not.

[music]

JP: Ray Wildeman is the town's mayor, and he believes that people like Pat, who don't want to separate from Canada, make up the majority of the town. We drove out to this industrial park where he does business as both mayor and head of a family business that makes custom woodwork.

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[Sound of a machine whirring]

RAY WILDEMAN: That is my son right there. Come on in. It's like a field trip.

JP: Ray moved to Three Hills from Saskatchewan when he was 16, and he's really proud of his town.

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RAY WILDEMAN: We think rural Alberta is as close to heaven as we're going to find on this great earth, so.

JP: Well, I just wonder if you could elaborate on that for me. And maybe just, if you can have in your mind, like, speaking to somebody who maybe is not from Alberta.

RAY WILDEMAN: I have to swat the ball back to you and say, well, where did you grow up?

JP: So I grew up in Toronto, [RAY: Yes.] um, and I live in Toronto. I ask that question, you know, with my own real curiosity.

RAY WILDEMAN: People ask me all the time, well, what is grassroots? Family values are at the core of this kind of thing. Traditionalism is at the core of it. Faith is often a close partner to grassroots. I think it is. But I think that Alberta mindset that uh... hike up your boots and get to work and make something yourself flows from these rural places more easily than it might in an urban centre where you’re-- the masses of people have a harder time maybe standing out and becoming visible contributors to the ecosystems that they share. Whereas here you can let your thinking run wild, and you can create your own, your own way of doing things and you can be your own... There's more room to be yourself. But we're also a society or a group of people out here that was forged through hardship. I mean, I'm not saying that everybody isn't, but out here, you uh, you battle pestilence, plague, weather, fire, flood, frost, all of those natural things that these guys battled to forge what this place currently is. I mean, I think there's still that legacy.

JP: I mean, I feel like, I fee like the question I want to ask next is, um, how is it then that the people here have become so frustrated with the cities, with the country at large?

RAY WILDEMAN: What works in the city, people don't necessarily want here. Where, where can we go here without getting into deep political mud? But...

JP: But is the point not to get into deep political mud?

RAY WILDEMAN: Mud isn't-- I don't think where you want to wallow. Wallowing is akin to self-pity, which I don't, I don't like to cultivate, and that's where I feel some of the activism for separation comes from. It feels like a 'woe is me' is being cultivated in that wallow. And I don't like it. So I'm a pretty staunch opponent to the mindset of it myself, and I'm not gonna get swept up in buying into the notion that it's the best thing for the nation as a whole. So, you can write that right down. You can jot it down and record it, I don't care, but that's, that's, that's how I feel. I just want to make sure that the voices that are pushing that agenda fully understand the depth of the changes that they're asking for. And I'm not sold that that's been looked at closely enough. We're, we're putting gasoline on a fire without realizing how much kindling is around it. And there's great danger to that, in my opinion, so.

JASON MARKUSOFF: So I mean, I'm a nosy guy, and I noticed that you had the Alberta Prosperity Project [RAY: I did.] on your website--

RAY WILDEMAN: I just pulled it up because I was looking at it.

JASON MARKUSOFF: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, they paint a very rosy picture [RAY: Yes.] of what a separate Alberta would look like. There'd be way fewer taxes. You know, freedom from all kinds of Ottawa regulations. We'll have our own military. When you think about what Alberta on its own, Alberta independent looks like, what do you see?

RAY WILDEMAN: I don't see long-term benefit. I just don't. It sounds good in the short term, but I think once all the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed, you're going to find yourself in a similar, in a similar position. I wish the people that are pushing for a separatist agenda had to sit in a chair like this one, the mayor's chair, for an extended period of time and understand the difficulties of trying to make change to finance, health, taxation, social service, transportation, education. The whole gamut of everything that makes our society function in a half-ways fluid manner. I, I just wish they could see some of the challenges that are entrenched in there that aren't going to go away with different people sitting at the same table.

[music]

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DON MACDONALD: Good morning.

ELAINE CHAU: Hi.

DON MACDONALD: Hi, Elaine. I take it you're Elaine?

ELAINE CHAU: I am Elaine, yes.

DON MACDONALD: Good, Elaine. Good to meet you. Hi Jason.

JASON MARKUSOFF: Hey Don. Good to meet you.

DON MACDONALD: Good to see you.

JASON MARKUSOFF: This is Jayme.

DON MACDONALD: Hi Jayme.

JP: It's a pleasure.

JP: Don MacDonald is a local realtor, retired politician. Back in '92 he served briefly as a provincial Liberal MLA in Three Hills. I should mention that that party was way more politically Conservative than the federal Liberals. Don met Jason years ago at a town hall hosted by Danielle Smith. He's a longtime supporter of the premier and her United Conservative Party. And we're having lunch here before he shows us around town a bit. And we wanted to interview Don, too. He's seen the political wind's changed a lot in the area, including how support for separatism often goes up and then down again. He seems to literally know everybody. But before we're allowed to interview him, he actually wanted to interview us.

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DON MACDONALD: In each one of these categories, you have to decide which one has the most effect. So if you think that your friends...

JP: Don has us filling out this survey that he's designed, which he says gives him a window into what factors influence how people see the world. I will quibble though with how sound his process is, but I digress.

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JP: So in the first category, you have to basically rank how these four things affect how you see the world: education, race, technology, and friends.

JASON MARKUSOFF: So I turn it over to know what, to learn what I am?

DON MACDONALD: Yeah.

JASON MARKUSOFF: To learn the essence of my true self?

DON MACDONALD: Yeah.

JP: This goes on for a while.

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DON MACDONALD: What was your highest?

JASON MARKUSOFF: The highest was primarily peers.

DON MACDONALD: Oh.

JASON MARKUSOFF: So I'm a big peer pressure person, I guess.

JP: Yeah, primarily peers [inaudible].

JP: I think Don's doing this mostly because he doesn't want to be misrepresented by the media. While this whole survey is going on, he's recording us too. And even though I try to ask him questions, he shuts me down every single time.

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JP: Can you tell us a little bit about your history [DON: No.] in this area? Like both political and--

DON MACDONALD: No, 'cause first of all, I'm interviewing you.

JP: Oh, we're still do-- Okay. Okay. [laughs]

DON MACDONALD: We're just getting started.

JP: After the survey, there was actually an interview portion to this whole thing. And he asks us a bunch of get-to-know-you questions.

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DON MACDONALD: When you hear the word optimist, what do you think of the most?

JP: I think of somebody who chooses to see the positives in things.

DON MACDONALD: Okay. And how-- When you hear the word pessimist, what do you think of?

JP: Pessimist?

DON MACDONALD: Yeah.

JP: I think of someone who chooses to see problems with things.

DON MACDONALD: Okay. Jason, you go first. Um.

ELAINE CHAU: Don, how many of those questions are there?

DON MACDONALD: There's quite a few. We're here, we're here for a while. We got-- But we're gonna order lunch.

ELAINE CHAU: Okay.

DON MACDONALD: [speaking to Jason] Okay, I want you to contrast populism and elitism.

JASON MARKUSOFF: Elitism is brain trust. Populism is more people.

JP: You would get the same answer from me. I'm really, I'm not trying to cop out.

DON MACDONALD: Am I have to gonna start with you first every time?

JP: I-- [laughter] You might.

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DON MACDONALD: Have you ever had -- Elaine, I'm gonna start with you. [ELAINE: Okay.] Have you ever had a friend or family member go through a painful divorce, one they did not want? A friend [ELAINE: Yes.] or a family member? Okay.

ELAINE CHAU: I feel like probably most people have.

DON MACDONALD: Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

JP: It turns out that the question about marriage and irreconcilable differences wasn't so far off from our mission in Three Hills to get the pulse of how the separation rhetoric is landing with people. While there are Albertans who have decided that a divorce is best, I gotta say that the majority of people that we spoke to were more in the unhappy marriage, kicking-the-tires-on-what-my-options-are kind of camp. Don drove us out to a farm just outside of Three Hills, to talk to a couple of his friends who have a lot to say about separation. And also a lot at stake in it, as entrepreneurs who work in agriculture. We pull up to Harold Bayes's massive property, where he runs, among many things, a cattle feedlot.

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JASON MARKUSOFF: Dorky bit of Albertasplaining for you guys. I don't know if you guys know what a feedlot, Jayme and Elaine, what a feedlot is? Where they... They fatten cattle, so once your-- once the cattle are a certain age, they can... They raise them and they-- and then they sell them there. They fatten them basically for the slaughter.

DON MACDONALD: Yeah, he also has about 500 cows, so. Harold's also an artist. He designs stuff, he does stuff with metal. So he made all this stuff coming in here, yeah.

JASON MARKUSOFF: Oh, wow. Look at that, look at that gate.

DON MACDONALD: Yeah.

JP: As we drive onto Harold's property, there's this life-size metal artwork by the gate of horses and a stagecoach. Further up, there are wild rose carvings, also made of metal.

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JP: It's beautiful.

DON MACDONALD: So he has that, he has that artistic side to him. That you meet him and you, "Really, Harold? You do that stuff?" So.

JP: I mean, look at this house on the hill. [DON: Yeah.] It's stunning.

DON MACDONALD: This'll be-- The blue truck will be Keith's I'm pretty sure, so. Keith has been a cattle guy. He's strictly a--

[Sound of seatbelts unbuckling, chimes from the vehicle]

DON MACDONALD: So Elaine, I'm sure they're going to be okay with you recording...

ELAINE CHAU: We'll just wait.

DON MACDONALD: But I didn't tell them, so just...

ELAINE CHAU: Okay. Okay.

JP: Their other friend, Keith Doerksen, a grain farmer who owns 20,000 acres in two provinces, also came by. Harold laid out plates of pastries, cheddar cheese, and coffee for us, and he even offered me ice cream for my coffee. We started off by asking him and Keith about this current political moment in Alberta, when a lot of people are talking about separatism again. Keith says that he doesn't think separation is likely, but that people in the province want a different place in Confederation.

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KEITH DOERKSEN: When I was in my 20s, when I got done college, I worked in the oil industry. And at that time we had the National Energy Program, and you literally had the wealth ripped away from a generation. And it's happening again. Kids, it doesn't matter where you live in this country, you can't afford housing. You just can't afford the basics. And I know at my age now I'm not gonna stand by and see it. I'll sit back quietly and hold my nose and, and uh, vote for change. But not necessarily to separate. That's... I just can't see it.

JP: But so tie that for me to your position on Alberta's place in the Confederation. Why would Alberta's place in the Confederation change that for you?

KEITH DOERKSEN: If you're not paying the amount of taxes that we are, that every Canadian is paying, you've got extra money. And you can put that towards wherever you feel you should put it. You know, we had a federal election and everybody's-- we live in a country where people respect that. But at the same time, you look at the announcements, the money that keeps getting announced and being spent, that's your guys's money and mine too. And it's, we don't look after Canadians. So if you can't look after it, what's the point in sticking around?

JP: But the way you're talking now is kind of more towards separation than where you started, right?

KEITH DOERKSEN: Not separation, but it would be very similar to what Quebec does. They want to do their own thing, they do it. I don't see any reason why every province shouldn't be responsible for themselves.

JP: Like you want to say to the federal government: I'm not-- Alberta's not paying this level of income tax.

KEITH DOERKSEN: No, I would just as soon Alberta do what Quebec is doing and just determine their own future. [JP: Right.] But within Canada.

JASON MARKUSOFF: The reason... Like, one of the things that's been interesting about this moment. I mean, that sort of mentality has been around for, gosh, since the '80s or longer. I mean, what's different about this moment it seems is that there is a more organized, active effort to take that next step further that you don't want to take. I don't know, Harold, where are you at with all this?

HAROLD BAYES: I think there's been a big discrepancy in the past of... and, you know, the equalization transfers has been, you know, a one-way street. Alberta's sending money to Ottawa, and um. And that's, that needs to be rectified. You know, one of the other problems is is, you know, we can't get a pipeline, you know, either East or West. You know, every person is a consumer of energy. So I don't know how much fuel Keith would use, but we use about 250,000 litres of diesel fuel every year. It's strictly to produce food. You know, that needs to be produced efficiently, and, you know, we need pipelines. If you're the most environmentally friendly person on the planet, and you ride your bike to the grocery store to get food, that food will be wrapped in plastic, it will be shipped by diesel fuel, and it will be produced by people like Keith and I and our neighbours.

KEITH DOERKSEN: If the governments would just line up and let industry do its job, the royalties, the taxes would get spread across this country. You might be amazed at the things that could get fixed.

JASON MARKUSOFF: Some people have suggested that, but you're not gonna get these from Ottawa. We're gonna get these from the rest of the country. Then, then we gotta go. Keith said he was not into the idea of separation. Where are you?

HAROLD BAYES: It needs to change, because we cannot continue down the road we are and not have a negative long-term effect on us. If we can't get from a contemptuous relationship to a collaborative relationship, at some point in time, you know, separation happens, right?

JP: What would it take for you to like hit the separation button? How far off are you on that?

HAROLD BAYES: Well, I mean, we just need to get some changes. Otherwise, you know, that's what needs to happen. Like I mean, I heard a thing, and I don't know how accurate it is, but we would be the sixth wealthiest country in the world if we separate.

JASON MARKUSOFF: So is that-- how appealing is that to you? 'Cause it sounds like, it sounds like you're not there yet.

JP: Like, what's that window for you? Is it six months? Is it a year?

HAROLD BAYES: I mean, there's a growing frustration, right? You know, like our equalization payments, I mean, it's been a one-way street. We've sent a huge amount of money east.

DON MACDONALD: We're averaging 15 billion a year that's going out. So it's 244 billion over the last however many years it is. So it's 15 billion a year. If we went to Quebec and said, oh, by the way, you have to send money back to Alberta to support it, how would that conversation go?

JP: But I mean, I guess the argument... I take your point, but I guess the argument is just that everyone across the country pays the same level of federal income tax. It's just that Alberta has much higher salaries that you actually-- that's why you guys end up sending so much. Like, it's because this province is so rich. Like that's, that's the argument against this, right?

KEITH DOERKSEN: It's not just salaries. What about corporate tax?

JP: Yes, exactly. It's just that because this province is so rich...

KEITH DOERKSEN: So because some-- So because people have taken chances and have been rewarded and been successful. We're not saying we don't want to help, but what we're saying is there's got to be some responsibility on the other end. And I think that's the problem is that a lot of people including myself have got to that-- quietly, got to that point where we're starting to say enough is enough.

JASON MARKUSOFF: To hear you talk -- and Harold, you, to some extent -- like, I think people might think that you're pro-separatist, if it wasn't for the fact you kind of started off by saying you don't really think that separatist--

KEITH DOERKSEN: No, no--

JASON MARKUSOFF: So I guess I wanted to ask, why, why not? I mean, is it attachment to Canada? Like, what is holding you back from going, saying full-on, time to go?

KEITH DOERKSEN: Well, what's to be gained? What's to be gained by creating your own, by creating your own landlocked country? It's easier to reach out of a boat and pull somebody in than it is to fight them off and try and keep them in the water. It's just easier to take people along for the ride. We're willing to do that. But there comes a point where there's got to be some responsibility. And right now you have a prime minister who said, oh, he's in favour of all these things. But he's abdicated his power. He has the absolute power on federal infrastructure to make it happen. He's letting the premier from B.C. say, well, sorry, we don't want it. And he says nothing. All he'd have to say, not saying that he has to do it, but all he has to say-- err, when I say do it, he doesn't have to create the infrastructure, but he has, but he has to be very clear in saying, if you want infrastructure that's going across the country, it's federal responsibility, we will make it happen.

SOUNDCLIP

KEITH DOERKSEN: I have to leave. My wife has an appointment and I have to get her there, so.

JP: Keith, wonderful meeting you.

JASON MARKUSOFF: Keith, thank you so much. Appreciate that.

KEITH DOERKSEN: Hopefully we're not too much of rednecks for you. We're about as bad as it gets. [laughs] This is about as red as it gets.

JASON MARKUSOFF: Aw, come on.

JP: I think you're both lovely.

JASON MARKUSOFF: I think you're selling yourself sh-- I think you're selling the rest of the province short.

[laughter]

JP: Harold and Keith articulated these frustrations that we heard again and again in Three Hills. A focus on the federal government and transfers to Quebec -- long-standing bones of contention in Alberta, especially when people in Quebec have opposed oil pipelines. Don, who after many hours together actually started to forget to record us, says that palpable frustration with Ottawa that has yet to culminate into full-out support for separation is widespread amongst the people that he knows in town.

SOUNDCLIP

DON MACDONALD: Danielle Smith has made it very clear that what she is promoting is a sovereign Alberta within a united Canada. That is the consensus that I see. People are... They do not want, uh, let's just call it the status quo. But they are patriotic. They love this country. There is a angst over how the federal government creates policy and doesn't... doesn't create a climate of trust. So under Justin Trudeau, there was great distrust. And you remember the polls that showed that the Conservatives were up by however many points. I think everybody hopes that Mark Carney might be a different cat.

JASON MARKUSOFF: What-- Where are you? What do you think? Do you think Carney is a different cat?

DON MACDONALD: Um, I think Mark Carney is Kamala Harris. Lots of talk. We'll see if there's any substance now. I am not persuaded that uh, the talk is going to translate into real action.

JP: How long do you think he has?

DON MACDONALD: I think Danielle Smith has... and I, and I cannot identify all the things that she has laid out her principles. But there is not a, there is not a large window here, I don't think.

JP: And just for clarity's sake, what would he need to do?

DON MACDONALD: I think that if there was recognition that the Trawler bill -- is it C-68?

JASON MARKUSOFF: That's C-48.

JP: Oh, sorry, the um, Tanker ban bill?

JASON MARKUSOFF: Tanker ban is 48, yeah. Yeah.

JP: Great.

DON MACDONALD: If that was withdrawn and if... If there was pipelines built, if there was a real willingness to build those across the country, I think that would diminish a lot of the angst. But that unwillingness says to Albertans: we don't really care. So I'll tell you, so I've talked to lots of people in the last, you know, few days, and I get, I get both ends of this spectrum. People who are done, you know, they’re: the status quo does not work, we have to do something different. The people who they like the status quo: we'll just keep it as it is. And there's that large segment in between that's going: well, you know, we got-- the status quo doesn't work, we gotta do something, what does that look like? So a timeframe for that.

JP: So let me ask you this question. What do you think would happen to those people in the middle if they didn't feel like this was going in the direction that they want it to go into?

DON MACDONALD: Well, and that's where I think, I think Danielle Smith's willingness... 'Cause she's a, she's a bottom-up leader. She's listening to the people. Right? And so she's going to listen. There is, there's opportunity for a referendum, and she's made it possible to uh, to do that. Yeah, I um. What would people do if there was no change? That's a really... The separatist parties that are driving a wedge here or trying to drive a wedge right now, that, you know, we're gonna change all this overnight -- that's naive. This is, this is, any kind of change is a process. It's going to take time.

JP: This idea that she's this bottom-up leader who's listening, I mean, I feel like the counterargument to that is that she is placating to a minority. And I think the criticism is kind of pouring gasoline on a fire by allowing this... the, the threshold to move to a referendum to be lowered, right? I mean, like how would you respond to that?

DON MACDONALD: Absolutely disagree.

JP: Okay.

DON MACDONALD: Yeah, absolutely disagree. If you have a threshold that is too high, that's cutting things off at the knees. So what she has said: let's listen to the people. If there is a consensus for a referendum, then we will let the people decide. And that is, that is bottom-up. That's saying, let's see what the people have to say. And I think that's why Danielle Smith has such support is 'cause she has been able to verbalize and, and advocate for a really strong Alberta.

JP: Could I just ask you about Danielle? I mean, you're talking very positively about her. I've heard several people here talk quite positively about her. That might be... Well, I don't know. I don't know if surprising is the word. I just, I want to put something to you. Outside of... well, certainly maybe in Toronto and Ottawa and other places, the way that people kind of talk about her and refer to her is not always... it can kind of sometimes be in like jest, right? Like, oh, there she goes again. Like, at Mar-a-Lago, like, placating herself to Trump and the administration. Um. You know, Mark Carney made that quip about her that's like, oh, we're sending Doug Ford down to Washington, we're sending Danielle Smith -- oh wait, no, we're not sending her. I'm not-- I don't want to say she's like a punchline, but some people like don't really understand her popularity. I just wonder how you would respond, yeah.

DON MACDONALD: So, how does corporate media portray her, is one of my questions. And I think one of the frustrations that Albertans have is that often I think we're portrayed out here as, um, very provincial.

JP: What do you like about her?

DON MACDONALD: She's brilliant. I've heard her numerous times. The ability to think on her feet, to ask questions back. I don't know many politicians that are as open and willing to have whoever get up and ask questions.

JASON MARKUSOFF: Well, think back to the Wexit thing. 2019, Liberals get elected, re-elected for the first time. Trudeau was in. And people were starting to talk about separation. It polled decently, there was this movement. And it fizzled pretty quickly. Do you think that this separate moment is going to be...separatist movement, this independence movement right now is going to sort of fizzle or flame out, or do you feel like this is different, that this one has legs? This is going to be something we're talking about for a while?

DON MACDONALD: I think it has legs.

JASON MARKUSOFF: Why?

DON MACDONALD: Because, well, I'll give you an example. So I know someone whose wife grew up in Quebec. And she was talking to her nephew, who-- and she just said to him, the feeling here in the West is very different than the Quebec separatism. Quebec separatism was about kind of a cultural thing, you know, language and those things. In the West, it's about dollars and cents. It's about economics. And so there's more appetite, they seem to think, in the West for it. Again, do people want to separate? But it's... We talked about this earlier over lunch. And in a marriage, if there is, if there's one of the spouses that will not, uh, be willing to change, then somebody says, we're irreconcilable, this doesn't work. So there's opportunity for the country to recognize the value that Alberta brings. And that-- and they can accommodate and change and work with Alberta. And that's what Albertans are hoping for, I think.

[music]

SOUNDCLIP

JP: So we're just on our way out of Three Hills after two really great days of reporting. We talked to a lot of people. And Jason, how would you characterize the pulse of the town at this pretty integral political moment?

JASON MARKUSOFF: One thing that struck me about talking to people in and around Three Hills was that, contrary to what the polls seem to say, there are not a lot of committed separatists that we found. Yeah, we found a few. And some of them didn't really want to talk to the media, which is their, you know, their prerogative. But we spoke to way more people, I mean, almost everybody we spoke to, no matter what their position on this, has deep, deep resentment of the situation with Ottawa. Be it about pipelines or transfer payments, equalization, Quebec, um, the federal Liberals. Trudeau. Carney. A lot of disaffection. And even people who aren't separatists and who say, 'I do not believe in this,' they want Alberta's lot to change within Confederation, and they are really hoping that Mark Carney and Danielle Smith can change things. Because there are a lot of people who said they don't believe in that now, but give it a while, [JP: Yeah.] and if things don't change, they could be pushed to slam that yes button.

JP: Yeah. Um, one thing that I've been thinking about is that a lot of the people that we talked to pin quite a bit of hope on Carney. They want them to do really big things like re-hauling equalization payments and multiple pipelines going across the country. And even if there is that political will from this federal government to do this, these are complicated and hard things to do. And, you know, you do wonder if the expectations are such that disappointment is almost inevitable, hey?

JASON MARKUSOFF: I think one of the big questions is, how much will people accept as good enough in Alberta? If there is one pipeline or if there's progress towards one pipeline, will that tamp down people's disaffection? Will that tamp down some of the separatism or soft separatism interest? A lot of that I think might rest in how Danielle Smith responds to it.

JP: Yeah.

JASON MARKUSOFF: If she sees a partial victory as a victory, if she's gonna see some clear progress as really, really good, let's, you know, put down our sabers... the people out here really believe in her. They'll follow her with that. But if she sees, you know, some pipeline approval but doesn't see enough, or if she wants two or three and they only get one, or there's pipeline approval but no federal transfer overhaul, uh, does she, you know, not support that? So I think the temperature controls -- as it were, the, hate to say this, but the climate controls -- on this whole situation may rest largely with Danielle Smith herself.

JP: Jason, thank you so much for doing this with us. This was really fun and it's great to have you along for the ride.

JASON MARKUSOFF: This is a great road tripping pairing, it's been fun.

[Music: Theme]

JP: All right, that is all for today. Again, this upcoming Monday, people in Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills will vote in a provincial byelection. And what's really notable here is that it'll be the first barometer of how much Alberta separatist sentiment could translate into action at the polls. We'll be watching that really closely. This episode was produced by Elaine Chau, Jason Markusoff, Mackenzie Cameron, and me. Front Burner was also produced this week by Matthew Amha, Allie Jaynes, Joyita Sengupta, and Lauren Donnelly. Our YouTube producer is Jon Lee. Our music is by Joseph Shabason. Our executive producer is Nick McCabe-Lokos. And I'm Jayme Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you on Monday.

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In search of separatists in Alberta - Transcript

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