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Front Burner Transcript for July 24, 2025

Guest Host: Elaine Chau

ELAINE CHAU: Hi, I'm Elaine Chau, in for Jayme Poisson.

[Music: Theme]

EC: Yesterday, a three-day first ministers' meeting wrapped up in Ontario's Muskoka region between Prime Minister Carney and all the premiers, where they talked Trump, inter-provincial trade, and getting major infrastructure projects going across the country. But there's a potentially big sticking point in those major projects. Many First Nations leaders across Canada are furious about two laws just passed by the feds and the Ontario government, which are meant to fast-track projects, but which many Indigenous people say stomp on treaty rights and ignore the need to get their consent for development in their territories. This could shape up to mean some big battles across the country. Today I'm speaking to Alvin Fiddler, Grand Chief of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation. It's a political organization that represents 49 Ontario First Nations.

[Music: Theme]

EC: Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler, thanks for coming on Front Burner.

ALVIN FIDDLER: Thank you for the invite.

EC: On Tuesday at the first ministers' meeting, Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan announced an agreement to work together to strengthen trade and plan new pipelines and new rail infrastructure. This is really building on an agreement that Ontario and Alberta signed a couple of weeks ago. But some of the big things they would be exploring would be moving Western oil and gas to a not-yet-built deep-sea port in James Bay in northern Ontario, and also studying the possibility of a railway line that would go from the Ring of Fire region in northern Ontario -- which is, of course, rich in minerals -- to processing facilities in Alberta or Saskatchewan. And many of your member nations are close to the Ring of Fire and James Bay. What do you think about this agreement between the provinces?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Well, I think the missing piece in all of this is just a lack of any type of conversation with the people that live there. For example, one of the proposed sites that we're hearing is Moosonee or Moose Factory. And speaking with Chief Peter Wesley from Moose Cree, you know, has said that this was a total surprise to him to hear about this in the news, uh, and the people that live there. Something as major and something as significant as a proposed, uh, sea port in their community. So obviously that tells me that the province -- in this case, Ontario -- just totally failed to even consult with the people that would be impacted the most.

EC: The premier's argument kind of at this current time is that we have these unfair tariffs, you know, there's a need kind of more than ever to grow the energy sector, be more resilient and self-reliant as an economy.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: Folks, we can do two things. We can sit back and basically watch our economy die and jobs being lost. Or we can move forward, work collaboratively.

EC: What do you make of that argument?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Yeah, I think I've been quite vocal in the last few weeks or the last few months, that using someone like Donald Trump as a boogeyman to disregard your duty to consult and accommodate is not acceptable. That you still have a duty to have a conversation, a respectful conversation with First Nations, and you still have a duty to uphold the, uh, what UNDRIP calls for. And, you know, to ensure that First Nations have their right of free, prior, and informed consent be respected.

EC: There are these, like, two key pieces of legislation that many Indigenous people are taking issue with when it comes to all of this development discussion, right. There's the Protecting Ontario by Unleashing Our Economy Act, and also the Federal Building Canada Act. Um, better known as Bill 5 and Bill C-5, and both are meant to fast-track large development projects. And they've really faced similar criticisms. And if you could flesh that out a little bit more of what are your kind of central criticisms for those two pieces of legislation.

ALVIN FIDDLER: I mean, there are, there are several concerns that our leadership have expressed the last few weeks or the last few months about Bill 5 and now Bill C-5. The number one concern that we have is both Ontario and Canada's failure to acknowledge their obligations, whether it's their treaty obligations or their constitutional obligations to have a meaningful conversation with First Nations. There are several concerns that our communities have expressed. You know, one of the questions that's been raised over and over again is what happens if the community says, no, we're not ready. What if they say no to a major project in their territory, will they be arrested if they resist? Will they be sent to jail, similar to what happened with Chief Donny Morris of KI back in 2008 when he and most of his council were sent to jail for two months because they said no to a mining company that was exploring in their territory. So there's some real concerns about where things are headed, including the uh, just the total disregard for any types of environmental protections, whether it's Bill 5 or Bill C-5. And, you know, we've, right now, over the last few months since May, many of our communities have been dealing with forest fires and evacuations, and at the same time they're expected to engage in these major, major initiatives. And it's just impossible for a community like Sandy Lake to engage when 3,000 members of their community are displaced. And we know that with climate change it'll, it will only get worse if there's... you know, if these environmental protections are taken away. So there's just so many things that we are concerned about, that our leaders are concerned about. And the fact that Ontario and Canada so far have refused to listen, or to-- have said that they will not amend or repeal Bill 5 and Bill C-5, is a, is a huge concern.

[music]

EC: Following the criticisms of C-5 in particular, there was a summit where the prime minister met with over 600 Indigenous leaders from across the country last week.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: This is the first federal legislation to put Indigenous economic growth at its core. I fully recognize, we fully recognize there's many diverse perspectives, which is exactly why we've assembled this group.

EC: Clearly the federal government wants a reset here. Did that happen in your view?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Those that showed up there, at least from the NAN Territory, expressed, you know, our position, which has been that we oppose both Bill 5 and Bill C-5. We love our land. We care about our land and we care about the waters. And we want to put ourselves in the driver's seat, that when it comes to any type of resource development in our area, that we need to be the ones to drive that, not Ontario or Canada.

EC: Were you reassured in any capacity by what you heard during the summit?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Not at all. In fact, I, you know, I think it's even more concerning after being at the summit in Ottawa and also being at the meeting in Muskoka there two days ago, that even though Prime Minister Carney or Premier Doug Ford may say things that-- you know, trying to assure First Nations people in, in the leadership that they will respect the treaty or that they will consult.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: And I have been listening, and my colleagues listening, very carefully to all the comments. But what we're talking about principally today is how are we going to build together.

DOUG FORD: They want to move quick. And they're tired of talking. That's what I heard from all the chiefs around the table. All we hear is talk, talk, talk. Let's start moving forward. Let's consult. Let's collaborate. Because when we collaborate, everyone prospers. They want to make sure that their children and grandchildren have better lives than what they had. But they want consultation. I agree 100%.

ALVIN FIDDLER: But that's not what Bill 5 and Bill C-5 say. If you read those two pieces of legislation, all the power and authority, it rests with them. They've given themselves the power to, to do whatever they want or whenever they want to do it when it comes to resource extraction in our territory. And that's very troubling.

EC: Coming back to, you were mentioning the meeting with Ford as part of the first ministers' meeting. On Monday, as well, there was a meeting with Indigenous leaders there. And he said at the time, for the most part, I can't do something if they don't want to do it, and that you can't move forward without their collaboration and buy-in.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: The number one thing I heard is start moving. Stop talking, let's start moving. Because this door is only open for so long. Everyone seems to be working together, right from the municipalities to the provincial, federal, and First Nations communities. And we're gonna work together and collaborate.

EC: And what do you think about those comments from Premier Ford in particular? Do they assuage your concerns at all?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Um, not at all. In fact, what I said at that time was that I hope that his words were recorded, because, you know, that's not what the bill says. There is currently a legal challenge that has been put forward by four of our communities to challenge Bill 5.

SOUNDCLIP

FEMALE SPEAKER: These laws were purportedly brought in to address the threats from south of the border of the Trump administration. And yet, they are structured in ways that we become what we say we're threatened by.

REPORTER: Select First Nations -- nine at this point -- say the bills represent a clear and present danger to their ways of life and reconciliation.

ALVIN FIDDLER: And the reason why they're challenging it is because the province wants to assume all the power and authority over our lands and resources. And even though Premier Doug Ford may, uh, may do his verbal assurances on Monday, that's not good enough for us.

[music]

EC: You know, over and over again, like, we hear the government say that, you know, they want to streamline. They want to get stuff done to build, build stuff faster. And consultation is obviously a part of that. Do you think that there are ways to make the consultation process itself less bureaucratic?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Uh, I'm not sure. I think what's also concerning is that both Ontario and Canada have not defined what consultation means to them. I think we're pretty clear from our end what consultation should be or what it should look like. But we haven't heard that from Ontario or Canada.

EC: And how would you describe that?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Well, it's having a respectful, meaningful dialogue. Whether it's with Ontario, with Canada, for them to come to our own table, rather than us flying around the countryside attending their meetings in Ottawa or in Muskoka and, and having maybe not even the time to express our issues and concerns. So it's creating a process, a forum, where our leadership and also the rights holders can have a respectful dialogue with Premier Doug Ford, or in the case of Bill C-5, with the prime minister.

EC: You know, you mentioned the legal challenge. And can you tell me a little bit more about what is the outcome that is desired there?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Well, I think the, the legal challenge that was launched, their goal is to stop Bill 5.

EC: And, you know, it stood out to me that the nations that have taken part in the challenge have also just taken pains to say that they are not anti-development, right. That this is not about not ever developing projects.

ALVIN FIDDLER: Yeah, that's true. I think many of our chiefs have sort of delivered the same message that we are not necessarily anti-development. I think all of us want prosperity for all our communities in our nation, but it's the process I think that is, that is very troubling. That um, you know, the fact that Ontario and Canada are giving themselves all the power and authority to, to do whatever it is that they want to do in our territory. That is what is concerning. You know, that's why I've been going to these assemblies in Ottawa and also the one in Huntsville earlier this week, is to deliver a message that First Nations need to be at the table. The one that I went to on Monday was, I call it a side-table discussion. The main table, which was on Tuesday, where the prime minister was also part of that forum, that First Nations again were totally excluded from that meeting.

[music]

EC: You've really laid out the criticisms that you have of these two pieces of legislation that are meant to fast-track projects, as well as the meetings so far that are meant to assuage concerns about them. But I'm wondering, you know, given what Prime Minister Carney has promised -- that First Nations rights holders would have wealth and prosperity for, quote, "generations to come" -- do you see opportunities that these laws could bring to the communities that you work with?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Under the current version of these laws, I would say no. And I think what's especially troubling is the Prime Minister, Mark Carney, at the forum last week, said that he was not open to any, um, any changes or any amendments to Bill 5.

EC: Do you think the legal challenge could force his hand on that?

ALVIN FIDDLER: I mean, it's hard to predict how the legal challenge will unfold or what the decision will be. But I can understand our communities that took part in this lawsuit. That, you know, they have every right to defend their interests and, and, and their communities. And I hope that how this case unfolds will be favourable to, to them. That Bill 5 will be amended or repealed.

EC: There's something that I want to play for you, Chief, if that's all right with you. Our regular host, Jayme, she interviewed the Federal Energy Minister, Tim Hodgson, a few weeks ago. And, you know, throughout this conversation, you've been bringing up your concerns around what if we want to say no to a project, what happens then? And, you know, we tried to get him on the record about that precise thing. [ALVIN: Yeah.] Whether or not the government would proceed with a project that was rejected by Indigenous leaders. So, I'm hoping you could just have a listen.

ALVIN FIDDLER: Okay.

SOUNDCLIP

JAYME POISSON: I just want to be clear about something. Let's say an Indigenous group gives a hard no to a pipeline that crosses treaty land. Would you move to build the pipeline anyway?

TIM HODGSON: Um. Again, you're talking about a hypothetical, and I'm not gonna-- The prime minister has been clear, is we would need consent from Indigenous peoples from provinces and territories.

JAYME POISSON: So you wouldn't.

TIM HODGSON: We will, we will deal with, we'll deal with it when we get to the actual-- I, I think people are trying to get to hypotheticals. The goal is to get to people being supportive. There are a lot of tools people have to get to places. If we're not getting consensus, it's going to be very challenging. [JAYME: Mm-hmm.] There are a lot of projects, like, I went through. There are lots of projects where we are going to get consensus. Um. Our preference is to work with-- to, to help everyone get to a good place. Our preference is not to drive wedges between people. Our preference-- Like, we're in a trade war. We gotta pull together.

EC: What do you make of what he had to say there?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Well, the problem that we have is that these provincial or federal officials, whether it's the environment minister or the prime minister or Premier Doug Ford, saying that "Trust us, we will respect your treaty rights" -- our people have heard those words many times before. And we don't trust them. And it's simple as that.

[music]

EC: I'm curious, we were talking about opportunities. And are there examples in your eyes of big development projects that have been a win-win for all the parties involved? You know, one that gets pointed to is the liquefied natural gas project in Kitimat, B.C. And the key proponent there is the Haisla First Nation. And can you think of any examples, you know, whether that one or another one, that you think have been positive? And just tell me about why you think they worked.

ALVIN FIDDLER: Yeah, no, for sure. And I can give you one example from our territory. We call it Wataynikaneyap Power, to connect 21 of our communities to the provincial grid. And it's probably like a $1.8 billion project. That started seven or eight years ago, and now is just completing the hookups to the communities. And that was a, a project that was based on the needs of our communities. It was community-led. It was sort of a tripartite project involving Ontario and Canada, First Nations majority ownership, and the project went really well. So we-- I think we have a blueprint that is based on, again, it was community-lead, it was community-driven. All our communities knew about what the impact of the project would be to their land and to their water and what the revenues would look like and what the uh...

EC: When you say that there's, [ALVIN: Mm-hmm.] when you say that there's a blueprint there, what would you describe as, you know, if there was like a short list here?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Yeah, I think first of all, with Watay Power, and again, it's a big project that was community-led and community-driven. To me, that is, that is so key, that our communities were part of that discussion, even before we hit the shovels on the ground. That they knew exactly what this project would mean to them. And that is so important when you talk about major projects. You know, the ones that Bill 5 and Bill C-5 talk about, that, that First Nations need to be at the table right from day one.

EC: Something that struck me while reading up on the LNG Project in Kitimat, you know, one of the defining things-- Well, first, it's also about like not only participation, but ownership. [ALVIN: Mm-hmm.] You know, for the Haisla, like it was also about involving their own people in understanding all of the technical expertise that comes from these projects, and that they were the ones to build trust within their communities on that. And do you see kind of those, um, those elements as being really kind of crucial in the consultation process?

ALVIN FIDDLER: For sure. And, and again, it's going back to the Watay Power experience, that communities recognize that, at that time, they may not have the necessary capacity to, or the capacity to effectively engage in a project like this. But they quickly built a plan, or they created a plan how that would happen. And, and their First Nation, you know, our, our membership were, were effectively involved in that project, because training and skills development was a big part of, of that project. Um. And so that they have the capacity now that if there is another project that comes along, that the, that the capacity is there. So to me that was a, that was a big, you know, that was, that was quite significant.

EC: Could you see a version of, say, the Ring of Fire development that could work, like applying those principles that you've been talking about?

ALVIN FIDDLER: Yeah, for sure. I mean, anything is possible if you do it the right way. If, you know, if there is respect and trust, that if there's a relationship there between all the, all the parties, that we can, we can do or we can build anything.

EC: Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler, thank you for your time.

ALVIN FIDDLER: Miigwech.

[Music: Theme]

EC: That's all for today. I'm Elaine Chau, in for Jayme Poisson. Thanks for listening, and talk to you tomorrow.

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Inside Indigenous backlash to fast-tracking mega projects - Transcript

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