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Front Burner Transcript for July 8, 2025

Host: Jayme Poisson

JAYME POISSON: Hi everyone, I'm Jayme Poisson.

[Music: Theme]

JP: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is in Washington this week, meeting with U.S. President Donald Trump and senior members of the administration. Netanyahu's visit brings hopes for a potential 60-day ceasefire in Gaza after months of killings of Palestinians at aid sites run by the Israeli and U.S.-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Estimates vary, but many, many hundreds have been killed. The visit also created a venue for Netanyahu to...

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BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: I present to you, Mr. President, the letter I sent to the Nobel Prize committee.

DONALD TRUMP: Oh.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: It's nominating you for the peace prize, which is well deserved. And you should get it.

JP: In case that wasn't clear: for Netanyahu to tell Trump he'd written the Nobel committee to nominate him for a peace prize. What peace? Will a ceasefire happen? That's what we're going to talk about today with Meron Rapoport. He's been on the show a number of times before. He's a 35-year veteran of the Israeli news industry and was formerly the head of news at Israel's Haaretz newspaper. Today he works as an editor at Local Call, a Hebrew language news organization operating in Israel.

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JP: Meron, thank you so much for coming onto the show.

MERON RAPOPORT: Thank you.

JP: It's always great to speak with you. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is in Washington this week meeting with Trump and U.S. lawmakers. Trump is reportedly weighing whether to pursue a nuclear deal with Iran. And of course, on the table is a prospective 60-day ceasefire agreement that would see the release of dozens of Israeli hostages, both alive and dead; the withdrawal of Israeli forces from parts of Gaza; and the entry of, quote, "sufficient aid into the Gaza Strip." What have you made of Netanyahu's trip to Washington and this new prospective ceasefire agreement that is currently on the table?

MERON RAPOPORT: [laughs]. It's really difficult to say. And we are in, um. As we speak, we don't know, I don't know the result of the meeting with Trump. I would say that Netanyahu, I think after the war on Iran, uh, that was described as a success in Israel and by Trump himself -- although I have a bit of doubt this definition, but yet it was-- in the Israeli public it was perceived as a success. I think Netanyahu sees now an opportunity for him to end the war and go for a ceasefire, even with the definitive end to the war, and go to an early election with, in hand, the supposed victory on Iran and the hostages at home. I think this is for him a unique opportunity. He is trailing in the polls despite the success in Iran. I think this is a moment the Israeli public is very, very tired from the war. The attention that was-- you know, the Israeli public was distracted during the 12 days war with Iran. Gaza, now the tension is again on Gaza. Um, soldiers are being killed almost daily in Gaza. The goal seems very not clear. Most Israelis don't understand what we are doing there. Even right-wing opposition leaders are saying that soldiers are killed for nothing. Um, of course, the international pressure is growing, seeing the Israeli crimes in Gaza, especially what's going on around the aid centres run by Israel and the U.S. So I think um, he, he wants... he sees an opportunity to end the war there, but I'm not sure that he will. I'm not sure that he can withstand the pressure from within his government. And even the pressure, his own understanding that an end to the war in Gaza means in some, uh, may lead... he, I think he is afraid that it may lead to some form of a beginning of negotiations on more agreement with the Palestinians. That the issue of negotiating a Palestinian state or Palestinian community [JP: Mm-hmm.] or something like this will be very much on the table once the war is over. And the only way to prevent it is to continue the war. So I think Netanyahu does not want a Palestinian state. It's against his belief. This is-- He came into politics 30 years ago in order to prevent a Palestinian state. That's his legacy in politics. So I think this is, you know, the pressure from within and his own legacy, I think, stands in the way of him agreeing to a ceasefire.

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COMMENTATOR: This prime minister is way too committed on the Iran issue. It's almost messianic for him. And he's going to want to fight. So there is, there is a real opening there for some continuing tensions over this deal.

MERON RAPOPORT: But at the same time, as I said, there are political considerations for him to agree for that, and there may be a pressure from Trump. Although I'm not that convinced that Trump will pressure Netanyahu in a way that he will tell him, either you accept it or I will, I will have um... there will be consequences if you don't agree. I don't see Trump doing that.

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JP: If Netanyahu were to agree to a deal, let's say this week, what kind of terms do you think he would accept?

MERON RAPOPORT: Netanyahu still insists on a phased deal, meaning that in the first phase, there will-- it will be a 60-days ceasefire, during which eight hostages, live hostages, will be released in the first day or the first days of the ceasefire. And other two live prison-- hostages will be released on the 50s, after 50 days. And during that period, bodies of dead hostages will be released also. And then during that period, this 60-days period, there will be a negotiation on the final agreement. So this is what is on the table now. This also is not very easy because Hamas wants that Israel will withdraw to the lines before of the ceasefire in January, meaning go out of the areas it took since March, especially in the southern part of the Gaza Strip in Rafah, in what is called the Morag Corridor. Uh, in the southern part of the Gaza Strip. And they want Israel to withdraw to the lines before beginning of March. And it wants the aid to flow again through the UN and not through this monstrous arrangement which the Americans and the Israelis have established with Gaza aid centres. So uh, so these are big obstacles. I think Netanyahu will not-- It will not be easy for Netanyahu even to accept these deal-- these, uh, terms. But let's say there will be some compromise here, because I think Hamas wants a deal, wants a ceasefire in order to have some relief of the people in Gaza, and there's a huge pressure from the people in Gaza on Hamas to agree to-- with a 60-days ceasefire. As for a final agreement, I think Netanyahu will have to give up the idea of a forced, uh, uh, expulsion of uh, immigration of the Palestinian. The idea of what is called the [unclear] plan, although Trump denounce, uh, uh, denounced it. I think for the moment he demands that Hamas will completely disarm. This is a condition that is not meant to be agreed upon. If Netanyahu insist on it, it means that he doesn't want an end to the war, because Hamas will not accept a deal like this. There is a lot a lot of criticism from the families of the hostages that they are talking about. What they're, they're calling actia. And in the Hebrew they're talking about people will be selected. The ten that will be released now will leave, and the ten that will stay in Gaza, the ten hostages, will be more or less doomed to death if the war will resume in two months' time. So there is a lot of pressure on him, uh, uh, to agree. And maybe he can sell it to the public and say, okay, I won over Iran, Hamas is destroyed, the cities in Gaza do not exist anymore, there's no more Rafah, there's no more Khan Younis, a large part of Gaza city are destroyed. But again, as I told you, I think the two elements that go against it are the pressure from his right-wing government that sees a, a once-in-a-hundred-years opportunity to finish totally the, uh, Palestinian issue in Gaza. They think that this will not return, an opportunity like that will not return to have just all of Gaza destroyed and all its people deported. They think it's once-in-a-lifetime chance.

JP: Mm-hmm. What do you think he's ultimately trying to accomplish in Washington this week with his meeting with Trump, but also with all of these other U.S. officials?

MERON RAPOPORT: I think he wants Trump, uh, to help him, uh, pressure Hamas to agree now to the terms that he wants. Meaning, for example, aid will not be resumed fully, at least not in the way it was during the ceasefire. That it went by the UN agencies. He wants Trump to pressure Hamas to agree that Israel will not withdraw completely from what it gained since March 25. He wants, you know, the picture of him standing with, with Trump saying, 'We crushed Iran.' This is very, very important for him internally. I think that the results of this war are dubious at the best, but for the Israeli public, if they will see Netanyahu and Trump standing together in the White House saying we crushed Iran, Iran has no nuclear capability, their nuclear program is delayed in at least ten years, and things like that, it will help him in the election if there is, uh, there are, early election in Israel in the next months.

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JP: Now, I'm hoping that we can focus the remainder of this conversation on the suffering in Gaza and on what I believe you called a monstrous system -- the takeover of aid distribution in the territory. Reporting published by Haaretz last month, and later supported by the Associated Press, has given us previously unprecedented access into the takeover of that distribution via a project whose origins have been rooted in mystery. All we really know is that it was set up in coordination with both Israel and a collection of U.S. evangelicals and private security contractors. They are also reported to be working alongside Palestinian militias like the Abu Shabab militia. The aid scheme is overseen by American mercenaries, reported to be paid more than $1,000 US per day. Since its creation, the Food Programme has been incredibly controversial. There has been what feels like a permanent state of violence. I've seen reporting recently putting the death toll of Palestinians between 400 and 700 people killed in just two months. Recently, more than 160 NGOs have called for its end. Gaza is one of the worst hunger crises in the world. Can you tell me more about some of the takeaways that you have around this food program?

MERON RAPOPORT: I think the idea was to push the Palestinians in Gaza into the southern parts of the Strip, preparing them for, um, some kind of, um, concentration camp. I don't have another word for that. Uh, in order to prepare for the forceful immigration of Palestinians in the, uh, uh, afterwards. The idea was that there will be these distribution centres in the south that people will be-- will have to go south in order to take this, uh, uh, aid, and they will be forced to stay there. This did not happen. This did not happen. It was a total mess. They are just leaving the aid -- a very small amount, not sufficient -- they are just leaving the aid and ran away. And people are just storming these places, taking whatever they can and go back to where they are. So the idea of using these centres in order to concentrate the Palestinians in the southern part did not work. At the same time, what happened is that as there is a total mess, and total... nothing is under control there, and it is just, uh, like a hunger game, these centres are placed where the army controls -- so these where the army controls. Uh, so the army is firing on these people that are waiting in line or trying to get this food. There has been reported more than 750, if I'm not mistaken, Palestinians killed by the army, who according to the soldiers that talk to Haaretz, but also with other newspapers, the soldiers are saying that they direct the Palestinian to these centres by fire, by using fire. Either machine guns or even tanks. So they, uh, they tell them where to go with fire. They don't talk to them. They just fire them, hoping that they will know where to go. This has really created unbearable scenes of people really dying. A friend, a good friend of mine, his brother was killed this way. 35 years old, a father of two small girls. He was killed like this. He just went to bring, uh, uh, flour meat-- uh, wheat to his family, and he was shot and killed. So this is a total failure, both from, you know, what the Israelis wanted to achieve and certainly from the point of view of, let's say, public relation or or or moral point of view. It's a total failure. Therefore, now in Israel, they're talking openly today. The Minister of Defence, Israel Katz, said that he is-- that his plan is that during the ceasefire -- I don't know how it will be done -- during the ceasefire he will push, Israel will push 600,000 Palestinians into, uh, south of the Morag Corridor, where a city the name Rafah used to stand. So the plan is to push 600,000 Palestinians into the ruins of what used to be Rafah, and do checks before they come in that they don't carry weapons or they don't belong to Hamas. And they will not be able to leave. Once they are in this camp, they cannot be-- they cannot leave. This is, of course, is, is of course, a hundred percent similar to the concentration camps in World War II. This is the idea, to concentrate people. It's not extermination yet, but it's concentration. I am not sure that this is feasible. I'm not sure the Palestinian will go. I'm sure that the army will obey. The army-- There was, in the Supreme Court, there was a motion against this act, and the chief of staff, Eyal Zamir, told the Supreme Court that there is no plan to move and concentrate the Palestinians in Gaza. So, it's not very clear how it will be done. But um, the failure of the American aid centres, the failure leads, according to Israel Katz, to build a real concentration camp. A permanent one.

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JP: There's been reporting this week that the GHF, the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, has been linked to planning these civilian camps, right? According to the Financial Times, the Boston Consulting Group, one of the most prestigious firms in the world, helped model scenarios for voluntary relocation of, I think, half a million Gazans, right, estimating that three-quarters of [MERON: Yes.] them would never return, right. So, I mean, that kind of [MERON: Yes.] goes against the statement that there is no plan, right?

MERON RAPOPORT: The Minister of Defence, Israel Katz, said that there is such a plan, and this is the official plan of Israel and that this plan was approved by the Israeli government. The literature report, I think Reuters or and other news organizations have seen a, a, a plan, uh, to relocate half a million Palestinians inside the Gaza Strip and outside the Gaza Strip, for camps of, of distribution on food and re-education. That's also the plan there. Of course, these plans do not go along with the ceasefire. Even a ceasefire of 60 days. I do not see how a ceasefire, during a ceasefire of 60 days, half a million Palestinians will agree, when there's no war and there's no, uh, uh, there's no threat of bombing, that they will go voluntarily to live in the ruins of a city that does not exist anymore. I don't see how. So it may hint that Israel is not really serious, is not really serious about, uh, uh, about the ceasefire.

JP: All of these reports that have been coming out about this indiscriminate violence at the aid centres, um, I just want to read one scene in particular from the AP. Quote, "In a video, what appear to be heavily armed American security contractors at one of the sites in Gaza discuss how to disperse Palestinians nearby. One is heard saying he has arranged for a 'show of force' by Israeli tanks. 'I don't want this to be too aggressive,' he adds, 'because this is calming down.' At that moment, bursts of gunfire erupt close by, at least 15 shots."

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[Burst of gunfire]

CONTRACTOR: Whoo! Whoo!

CONTRACTOR 2: I think you hit one.

CONTRACTOR: Hell, yeah, boy!

JP: What is the reaction to this, to this information coming to light in Israel? Is there internal debate in [MERON: Yes.] Israel among soldiers, politicians? Yeah.

MERON RAPOPORT: It does seem that, um, the army is not one bloc. They are very, especially the regular army, the soldiers are very right-wing. That was seen in the last elections. And their commanders, many of their commanders, at least middle-rank commanders, officers, come from the settlements. So they are very, very aggressive and really believe that the destruction of Gaza is the act of God. So there are these soldiers and there are enough of them to do it. At the same time, for the first time since the beginning of the war, since October 7th, in the last few weeks, we are hearing a lot of soldiers in growing numbers talking to the press -- usually, of course, anonymously, because they serve in the army. But sometimes even with their names, but mostly anonymously, are talking about it, and saying that this is unacceptable, that they cannot live with it, that this goes against everything they believe in. So there are some moral questions. And again, more than that, there is even a wider, uh, uh, understanding, or a wider, uh, uh, support for the claim that Israel has no goals in Gaza, that the army is going nowhere, that the soldiers are being killed for nothing, that the bombing are achieving nothing, um, that Hamas is still there. So this is quite widespread. I heard today Avigdor Lieberman -- yes, he's in the opposition, but he's very right-wing. He used to be minister of defence, minister of treasure, um, and a long-time part of Netanyahu. Now he's, ha, quarreling with him, but he's really right-wing. Uh, saying that the soldiers that were killed lately, there were almost 30-- uh, 25, I think, soldiers killed since Israel broke ceasefire, uh, uh, these soldiers were killed for nothing, only for the political aims of-- goals of Netanyahu. This is a very heavy thing to say, to claim, for a right wing, that, you know, that soldiers are killed for nothing. So the feeling that Israel, that the war is going nowhere and has no goals and that really the full occupation of Gaza is not a real goal, and uh, uh, I think this is quite widespread. But also, there are moral discussions, much more still. There are-- I cannot measure, you know, how many Israelis feel like that, that what we are doing is morally wrong. But their voices are being heard for the first time on many, uh, on all media, not only in where I work, Local Call 972 or in Haaretz, but also in mainstream media: Yedioth Ahronoth, the largest circulation newspaper. Channel 12. So, these voices are heard. Um. And yes, I think um, not a few Israelis look at what is happening and saying that we are, we are going into hell. We are going into hell and we are repeating the worst war crimes since World War II.

JP: Okay. Um, Meron, I want to thank you very much for this.

MERON RAPOPORT: Thank you.

[Music: Theme]

JP: All right, that is all for today. I'm Jayme Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow.

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Netanyahu in Washington, and a Gaza ceasefire? - Transcript

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