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Front Burner Transcript for July 28, 2025

Guest Host: Elaine Chau

ELAINE CHAU: Hi, I'm Elaine Chau, in for Jayme Poisson.

[Music: Theme]

EC: The political crisis over the Jeffrey Epstein files continues to play out in Washington. A few weeks ago, the Department of Justice shut down its criminal investigation into the late sex offender and his associates. At the time, we looked up what that decision meant, especially after years of theories around the so-called Epstein client list. You can find that episode in our feed. But since then, there's been many more revelations about the story, and many of them are about U.S. President Donald Trump's personal relationship with Epstein. According to reporting that first appeared in the Wall Street Journal, Trump's name is in the government's Epstein files several times.

SOUNDCLIP

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: When Justice Department officials reviewed what Attorney General Pam Bondi called a, quote, "truckload" of documents related to Epstein earlier this year, they discovered Donald Trump's name appeared multiple times.

EC: And the Department of Justice briefed him on this back in May and later decided not to release more documents about the case. Late last week, the DOJ also interviewed Epstein's long-time associate, Ghislaine Maxwell, for nine hours about the files. She's currently serving a 20-year sentence for sex trafficking and other crimes. So today, we're revisiting the story with Anna Merlan, senior reporter from Mother Jones, who's been covering it for years. We'll talk through what we know about Trump's relationship with Epstein, how Trump is going on the offensive about it, and trace back to why and how the Epstein files have become such a foundational issue for the MAGA coalition.

[Music: Theme]

EC: Hi, Anna.

ANNA MERLAN: Hi.

EC: So the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times have confirmed that Donald Trump was briefed directly by his lawyers in May, that his name appears in the Epstein files multiple times. Trump has denied that account. And I should point out that appearing in the files doesn't necessarily mean wrongdoing. And what do we know about this briefing as well as the general timeline here?

ANNA MERLAN: Right, so we know that Attorney General Pam Bondi-- we now know, I should say, that Attorney General Pam Bondi told Trump in May that his name appears in the files. Obviously, there are probably hundreds of people mentioned in these files. One pretty profound truth of how-- the Epstein situation is that many, many, many powerful people associated with him over the years. However, that meeting in May was not disclosed until earlier this month. So Trump has known for a long time that he appeared in these files in some form and chose not to disclose that to the public. So that is one of the things that has become a pretty significant headache for him and for his administration in the last couple weeks.

EC: And do we know exactly what he was told during the briefing?

ANNA MERLAN: We don't. All we know is that Bondi told him that he is in the files. There's really been sort of nothing else. And actually, even just a week ago, Trump told a journalist in response to questions that he had not been told that he was in the files, which was not true.

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REPORTER: ...files ever?

DONALD TRUMP: No, I was never, never briefed, no.

ANNA MERLAN: So, there's been a pretty significant amount of confusion, and some would say obfuscation, from Trump and from the administration about exactly sort of what he knows about the Epstein files and when he knew it and when he was briefed on it. But we do know now that he was informed of this in May.

EC: Mm-hmm. And this was just weeks before the DOJ announced that it was like shutting down its investigation and would not be releasing additional files. So that -- you know, what do you make of that timing?

ANNA MERLAN: Right. So in early July, Axios was the first to report that the DOJ and the FBI put out this unsigned joint memo, essentially trying to put to rest three sort of central conspiracy theories that are widely held within the MAGA world. One, saying that they believe Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide. Two, saying they do not believe he was blackmailing powerful people who associated with him and who may have engaged in sex crimes alongside him, and three, that he did not maintain a, quote unquote, "client list" of people who were engaged in sex crimes against women and girls along with him. So we know that it sounds like the Justice Department and the FBI were looking at the Epstein material they had, they became aware that Donald Trump was in these files, and then later the DOJ and FBI released this memo saying that they have, you know, decided that there is nothing more to release here. The same memo also said that no one else will be charged in connection with the Epstein case, besides Epstein, who is of course dead, and his former girlfriend and procurer, the socialite, Ghislaine Maxwell. So, the uproar here is hard to understate, right, especially now that folks on all sides of the aisle know that President Trump was briefed on his appearance in these files not that long before the investigation was closed. So for conspiracy-minded people, especially the MAGA base, who care a lot about the Epstein story, this has been incredibly controversial.

EC: And the DOJ has said that the remaining files can't be released for privacy reasons, like including the presence of child sexual abuse material in the files. And like, what do we actually know about like the state of those files or how many files, like, at this point in time?

ANNA MERLAN: Right. So, there are a lot of unreleased files where Jeffrey Epstein and where Ghislaine Maxwell are both concerned. Julie K. Brown, who's an excellent reporter for the Miami Herald who's been covering the Epstein story since it first broke in the early 2000s, has written about this. But there are multiple criminal and civil investigations that both Epstein and Maxwell have been the targets of over the years. And so there are probably, you know, hundreds of pages of unreleased documents. One of the things that happened recently is that the Trump administration was trying to get grand jury transcripts released from the criminal investigations into Mr. Epstein. [EC: Mm-hmm.] But grand jury records are secret, and a judge denied that request. So there is a morass of information here and it is quite true that a lot of it has not come out.

[music]

EC: The relationship between Trump and Epstein, you know, has been a real point of fascination and controversy for really years now. They've been photographed together, filmed together; had social overlap in both Florida and New York. But beyond that, there have also been allegations connecting the two men, like in the case of the now-deceased Virginia Giuffre, one of Epstein's most well-known accusers, who claimed that she was first trafficked while working at Mar-a-Lago. And Anna, there's like a lot of confusion about I think the nature of the Trump-Epstein connection. And if you could lay out for us just like, what do we actually know?

ANNA MERLAN: Right. So we know that Trump and Epstein were friends, that they knew each other socially for at least 15 years. They both spent time in Manhattan and in Palm Beach, you know, where they both maintained homes. In 2002, Donald Trump, speaking to New York Magazine, has this, you know, pretty...

EC: Called him a terrific guy, right?

ANNA MERLAN: Yeah, a terrific guy who enjoys the presence of younger women.

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NEWS PRESENTER: Shortly, the president telling New York Magazine, quote, "I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It's even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it, Jeffrey enjoys his social life."

ANNA MERLAN: Which, of course, in hindsight, is a chilling, chilling quote. So we know that the two men were friends for quite a long time. We know that President Trump was one of the many rich and powerful people who flew on Epstein's private jets. And it is believed that Epstein and Trump had a falling out in 2004 over a dispute over a piece of property that both men wanted to buy that ultimately President Trump bought. More recently, Trump and his allies have suggested that Trump cut off the relationship upon finding out that Epstein was, in the words of some of the quotes that have come out, you know, a creep. But that doesn't actually seem to be true. It seems like the falling out here was really around this real estate dispute.

EC: When Epstein was arrested in 2019, Trump had said at the time that he had not spoken to him in 15 years.

ANNA MERLAN: Right. And that, you know, given that timeline of the real estate dispute happening in 2004, that would be about right. But in the, you know, '90s and early 2000s, before that time, the two men were photographed together quite frequently, including, you know, often, frankly, in crowds of young women.

SOUNDCLIP

INTERVIEWER: Have you ever had a personal relationship with Donald Trump?

JEFFREY EPSTEIN: What do you mean by personal relationship?

INTERVIEWER: Have you socialized with him?

JEFFREY EPSTEIN: Yes, sir.

INTERVIEWER: Yes?

JEFFREY EPSTEIN: Yes, sir.

INTERVIEWER: Have you every socialized with Donald Trump in the presence of females under the age of 18?

JEFFREY EPSTEIN: Though I'd like to answer that question, at least today, I'm going to have to assert my 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendment right, sir.

ANNA MERLAN: You know, there was a pretty infamous NBC news clip of the two men having a party at Mar-a-Lago featuring cheerleaders from the Buffalo Bills, and both, you know, Trump and Epstein are sort of photographed among this crowd of very young women. It's, you know, in hindsight, not, not great.

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REPORTER 2: Trump alternates between dancing and pointing out women to Epstein and the other men, and telling Epstein about the cameras.

[Pulsing dance club music]

REPORTER 2: Trump gestures to one, and appears to say to Epstein, 'Look at her back there, she's hot.'

EC: The Wall Street Journal and now the New York Times are reporting that Donald Trump contributed to a birthday letter for Jeffrey Epstein in 2003 -- that he drew a doodle which outlined the body of a naked woman with a typewritten note inside that reads in part, "Happy Birthday -- and may every day be another wonderful secret." Trump says this is fake and has sued the Wall Street Journal for defamation. But in recent days, there's also been more reported about, like, evidence of this book. And can you walk me through a bit of that?

ANNA MERLAN: Yeah. So, this was a birthday book compiled in 2003 for Epstein's birthday by Ghislaine Maxwell, who is now serving 20 years on sex trafficking charges for her role in his crimes. Donald Trump is one of the contributors. There is this outline of a naked woman and within it, this sort of imagined conversation between the two men in the third person. It's a very strange artifact. There's also pretty infamously Trump's signature in a position on the sketch that sort of denotes pubic hair on this woman. Um. So, yeah, Trump last week sued the Wall Street Journal, saying that the story claiming that he contributed to this birthday book is fake. He called the Wall Street Journal a useless rag, and he called the article false, malicious, defamatory, fake news. But since then, the New York Times has reported that his name appears on a contributor list for the birthday book along with former president Bill Clinton. So it, you know, seems pretty evident that at some point someone is going to have to produce this birthday book. At this point, House Democrats are saying that they believe that the actual physical book is in the hands of Jeffrey Epstein's estate, and they're calling on the estate to turn it over.

EC: Right. Um, you mentioned Clinton as a contributor. The New York Times reporting that Bill Clinton was also a contributor to this book. And Trump's really been using that as deflection, right?

ANNA MERLAN: Yes. You know, and to be completely fair, there are plenty of prominent people besides President Trump who spent a great deal of time with Jeffrey Epstein over the years, including after his first criminal conviction on sex crimes in 2008. So, you know, I suppose that is, that is one place that you could deflect. But certainly, yeah, he is continuing to insist that his alleged presence in this book is fake, and point out that other people like Bill Clinton and billionaire investor Leon Black were also present in the birthday book.

[music]

EC: In addition to all of these new revelations, Ghislaine Maxwell was interviewed by Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche for nine hours over the course of two days late last week. ABC News is reporting that Maxwell actually initiated this meeting. And, you know, first of all, what's motivating these talks?

ANNA MERLAN: Right. So, among President Trump's sort of allies and the MAGA base, increasingly there is this narrative that Ghislaine Maxwell is the only person who can shed light on Epstein's crimes and who engaged in these crimes alongside him. But of course, she has been convicted on sex trafficking charges. She is widely known from the evidence in her criminal case to have engaged in sexual abuse alongside Jeffrey Epstein, by fondling some of these victims. And in a pre-sentencing memorandum before she was sentenced on sex trafficking charges, the government said that she had been dishonest in her talks with the government before she was sentenced, and that she hadn't shown remorse. But now Trump's Justice Department is questioning her, including, as you said, his former criminal attorney, Todd Blanche, who now holds a pretty high up role in the Justice Department. And um, her attorney has said, you know, that she is very forthcoming, and I believe the Justice Department has also said that she didn't decline to answer any questions. But we don't know exactly what those questions were and we don't know what the outcome yet of those talks is going to be. We simply have no idea how the government plans to use this information.

EC: Trump was asked the other day about whether there could be a pardon here for Maxwell. And he said that...

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DONALD TRUMP: I'm, I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have not thought of.

REPORTER 3: So you wouldn't rule it out?

ANNA MERLAN: That's correct. He did say that pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell would be in his purview, but that he hasn't thought about it. And it's worth noting that plenty of prominent MAGA supporters have said that they believe that pardoning Maxwell would be a real betrayal and that they would not support this move -- that it would be tremendously unpopular even among some of his base. So at this point, we have no indication whether that is something that the president is seriously considering, but we know that Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney has expressed strong interest in this and has said, you know, that she will welcome any relief that she can be provided.

EC: And is part of the idea here that Maxwell could say something that could help Trump?

ANNA MERLAN: Yeah, it's pretty obvious that one of the potential goals here might be for Ghislaine Maxwell to affirm that President Trump has, you know, nothing to do with the Epstein investigation to like, in a certain sense, clear his name, even though he has not been accused of criminal wrongdoing directly, obviously. But yeah, you know, a lot of people have pointed out that it's very unusual to have a political appointee, a top Justice Department official, who's previously been a criminal attorney for the president, personally questioning Ms. Maxwell. That is very unusual. It's unclear why he specifically was the person [EC: Mm-hmm.] to do it. The New York Times reported that while this questioning was taking place, a small plane actually flew overhead, flew over the courthouse where the questioning was taking place in Tallahassee, Florida, with a banner that read: Trump And Bondi Are Protecting Predators. So, yeah, I think the idea here is that they are hoping that something will come out of these talks that will produce some new names, which is what sort of the public and especially the MAGA base have been demanding. And that it will prove, uh, it will shore up Donald Trump's claim that he did not engage in any inappropriate behaviour himself or witness any inappropriate behaviour himself.

EC: But as you pointed out, this is all very tricky territory, and it could potentially backfire too.

ANNA MERLAN: It could. I mean, it's been very obvious that among pretty much, I would say, most of the country -- the MAGA base, people on the left -- the idea of pardoning Maxwell after she's already been tried, sentenced, and convicted would be, uh, would be deeply unpopular. And there have been plenty of people -- prominent sort of MAGA figures like Charlie Kirk of Turning Point USA, just to name one -- who have said that they believe that this would not be the right move. Speaker Mike Johnson also, I believe, said that, you know, this would be a pretty serious step, and has made it sort of clear that he wouldn't really support it either. So, you know. But just the fact that we're talking about this at all is pretty extraordinary. You know, two weeks ago, Ghislaine Maxwell was a disgraced figure serving a very, very long prison sentence for extremely serious crimes against women and girls. And now, you know, now we're having this conversation.

[music]

EC: You know, Trump's really... we've touched on this a little bit, that Trump's really gone on the offensive. You know, really framing this Epstein controversy as one designed by Democrats to be used against him. How has all of that landed, especially amongst his base, him kind of going on the offensive of here?

ANNA MERLAN: It's been unpopular. I've written about this quite a bit. It is very, very, very unusual for Donald Trump to face the kind of criticism he has been facing from his MAGA base. Donald Trump returned to office on, among one of many promises, a promise that everything in the Epstein files would be disclosed. You know, when he was elected, people close to him -- his son, Donald Trump Jr., prominent MAGA figures -- said, you know, now we're gonna find out what's in the Epstein files. So for him to turn around now and describe it as a hoax, to say that all of this is being ginned up by the Democrats and his opponents in the deep state to make him look bad, has, has been very unpopular. It has not been a winning strategy for him. But nonetheless, you know, he clearly feels attacked and is responding as such.

EC: Mm-hmm. Um, do you think any of the attempts at deflection have worked? You know, he's even recently accused Barack Obama of treason, you know, that the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election, uh, was part of a plot led by Obama to sabotage his time in office.

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DONALD TRUMP: Now, we found absolute-- this isn't like evidence or the... This is like proof, irrefutable proof, that Obama was sedacious, that Obama led-- was trying to lead a coup. And it was with Hillary Clinton, with all these other people.

EC: And yeah, you know, I guess I'm just curious as to what your reaction has been to that. Like, going after Obama as a point of the deflection here.

ANNA MERLAN: So, I mean, he's done a number of things, right? He's suggested that there's going to be a criminal investigation into president Obama, into Kamala Harris's campaign for, you know, alleged campaign finance fraud, somehow having to do with a Beyoncé performance at a Harris rally. You know, [he] has suggested that James Comey and other, you know, figures who served as antagonists against him in the Biden administration would all be under criminal investigation.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: I will tell you, I think they're very dishonest people. I think their crooked as hell. And uh, maybe they have to pay a price for that. I believe they are truly bad people and dishonest people. So, whatever happens, happens.

ANNA MERLAN: And by and large, a lot of this has been greeted with, you know, skepticism and just calls to release what's in the Epstein files. But it is absolutely true that right-wing and conspiratorial media is picking up on these narratives. You know, places like Infowars, obviously the home of conspiracy sort of mega-entrepreneur Alex Jones, have been running a lot with this idea that the Epstein story perhaps is a distraction or a cover-up for some kind of alleged criminal activity on the part of president Obama. It's all getting pretty tangled at this point. It can be sort of unclear exactly what kind of criminal activity they are suggesting. But it's absolutely true that places like Newsmax, One American News, Infowars, they're all covering these storylines and suggesting, you know, that something could come of these supposed criminal investigations. So, certainly, there is at least some interest among right-wing and conspiratorial news in kind of turning the page.

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EC: Anna, you know, I want to just back up here about how the Epstein files have become like just such a huge issue for Trump and his base in the first place. And for that, in many ways, I think we need to talk about QAnon, right? You know, um...

ANNA MERLAN: We do.

EC: [chuckles] And it's something you know a lot about. [ANNA: Yeah.] And for those who might need like a reminder on all of the lore, like, can you just take me back to the days of the first Trump presidency and a bit more about kind of the origins of QAnon and what exactly that the followers believe? 'Cause that all feels very relevant to kind of the present conversation right now about Epstein.

ANNA MERLAN: It does. Yes, unfortunately it is quite relevant. So, during the first Trump administration beginning in 2016, two conspiracy theories emerged. The first was Pizzagate.

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NEWS PRESENTER 2: It became a major story weeks ago when an armed man decided to investigate a D.C.-area pizza place for himself.

ANNA MERLAN: Which folks will remember, was a conspiracy theory that a cabal of high-level democratic elites were engaged in sexual abuse of children in the basement of a pizza parlour in Washington D.C. The pizza parlour had no basement, and ultimately that conspiracy theory culminated in a man with a gun going to the pizza parlour in an attempt to free children who were not there. Shortly after that, QAnon emerged, which was an idea that President Trump was secretly fighting a battle against evildoers, a deep state, a cabal of high-level sexual abusers, and that at some point this fight would be revealed. And at that point it was primarily suggested that people like Hillary Clinton would be going to prison as a result of this supposed secret battle against the deep state. QAnon continues in some remnant form, but when President Trump left office having not revealed his heroic battle against the deep state or arrested any supposed high-level sex offender, QAnon, as a discreet idea, kind of went away. But there is still a pretty strong belief in conspiratorial and right-wing spaces that there is a hidden cabal of sexual abusers, including, you know, many high-level Democrats, and that at some point the names of these people and their crimes will be revealed. And this is something that when Trump returned to office, he, his allies, his base, all kind of held as an article of faith.

EC: Mm-hmm.

ANNA MERLAN: That this was going to happen; that these names would be revealed. And so one of the ironies here, I would say, is that President Trump has pursued a very aggressive and accelerated agenda in all kinds of ways: you know, the dismantling of large portions of the federal government; an extraordinarily aggressive and brutal crackdown on immigrant populations and attempts at mass deportations of immigrants. And so in a lot of ways, when the Trump Justice Department and FBI turn around and say, 'There's nothing else we can say about Jeffrey Epstein, this case is closed,' it was greeted with real fury because people have seen President Trump pursuing this agenda and keeping the promises that he made during the election and all these other ways. So they have really said, like, we don't believe you and we want to see more.

EC: And how did Epstein intersect with the world of QAnon? How did he fit into this theory?

ANNA MERLAN: Right. So what's really interesting is when QAnon first emerged as a conspiracy theory, Jeffrey Epstein wasn't frequently mentioned within it. Which is pretty unusual because by that point he had been convicted of sexual offences in Florida and had been handed this extraordinary and very controversial plea deal in which he was not charged on federal charges. He served just 13 months in jail, and for much of that time, he was actually allowed to leave his jail cell on work release -- he was gone something like 12 hours a day. So the Epstein stuff didn't really become a strong part of the QAnon storyline for a very long time, which also meant that the sort of QAnon believers didn't have to reckon with the fact that Donald Trump has been photographed with Epstein many times over the years; that the men were friends. So finally, when QAnon did start to sort of start incorporating the Epstein-- the facts of the Epstein case into the conspiracy theory, it was held that perhaps Donald Trump had been friends with Epstein or stayed close to him and other powerful people in his orbit as a way of exposing his crimes. Which, needless to say, he did not do. That is not how Jeffrey Epstein was ultimately charged and convicted. It's--That's just not what happened. So, yeah, it's been um, kind of extraordinary that the Epstein story was not more of a sticking point among the MAGA base, many of whom, you know, care very deeply about sexual abuse against children and alleged sexual abuse by elites. So, you know, it is, in a way, kind of extraordinary that it is just now that this is becoming such a huge political liability for the president.

EC: Does it surprise you, like, to what degree it's become that political liability?

ANNA MERLAN: No, I'm just surprised it took so long. I mean, it's really, really, really unusual that this wasn't more of an issue for Donald Trump earlier. Not to mention, you know, his HHS Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., has also said that he flew on Epstein's plane a couple of times -- again, is not accused of any kind of sexual misconduct. But um, it is unusual that it is just now that folks on the MAGA base and in the, you know, remnants of the QAnon movement are getting upset about this. And so, again, it has put Trump in a pretty tight spot where there are real serious demands that are not going away to produce more information; to, you know, name names; to charge people criminally who might have associated with Epstein or engaged in crimes with him. And it's, it's very unclear, you know, how this ends.

EC: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Um, Anna, thank you so much.

ANNA MERLAN: Thank you for having me.

[Music: Theme]

EC: That's all for today. I'm Elaine Chau, in for Jayme Poisson. Thanks for listening to Front Burner, and I'll talk to you soon.

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Why Trump can't shake the Epstein files - Transcript

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