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Season 2: Episode 7 - Can I speak to your manager?

[Theme]

HARVINDER WADHWA: People are curious, and that's great.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: But there are some questions you just shouldn't ask or at least not like that.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm Harvinder Wadhwa.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I'm Elena Hudgins Lyle.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And this is Inappropriate Questions.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Let's get inappropriate.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Harv, I'm curious, tell me about your job history. What jobs have you worked?

HARVINDER WADHWA: I have mainly worked in the financial sector and it has always been an office job, one way or the other.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right, okay.

HARVINDER WADHWA: But what about you, Elena?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: In my youth, I started out babysitting, and then I acted in a feature film, which I sometimes consider my first real job.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I didn't know that.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, I mean I will send you some clips and some photos and my headshot and everything.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Look forward to that.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Then I did some photo and video work for a non-profit and then I got into radio and podcasts. So, I have myself never been asked this question, "Can I speak to your manager?" because, and it sounds like you as well, I've never worked in retail or had a service job.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Correct. Correct. And that is quite a bit of privilege.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, for sure.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I have, and now I'm feeling a little bit sheepish about it. I have asked at times this question, “Can I speak to your manager?” But I have to add that I have been extremely respectful.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: It was mainly because sometimes manager has a little more power or a little more information than a frontline person may have. So from that point of view, I never felt that that was an inappropriate question.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. Just everything I've seen about this question, it seems like it's so wrapped up in experiences that are condescending or belittling or just exhausting that so many people have had to go through. So I don't know. I don't know if this question in the right context can be something that's okay to ask, but I'm looking forward to finding out.

HARVINDER WADHWA: We'll find out.

[Music]

VOICE 1: It's like the only thing you can do as a threat if you're not getting your way, you're like, “I'm going to speak to your manager.”

VOICE 2: We're equipped with the same information. Just because I'm young doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing.

VOICE 3: We dehumanize the people who work in those spaces.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Jason Suerte Filipe has been asked this question a lot as a cashier and then as a supervisor at a home goods store. I connected with him to chat more about why people ask to speak to the manager so often. Can you tell me about a time you were asked, “Can I speak to the manager?

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: The one that comes to mind, I had a customer come in trying to return a nightlight, but it was well past the 90 day return policy.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: And of course you know, she didn't back down as one does, and she asked for the manager. This where she asked for the manager. The manager comes in, she agrees on my side and says we cannot take it. But the thing is, the customer kept on asking, kept on arguing and at the end of the battle, I guess, she got her way. My manager at the time just said, “You know what, just do it. It's only a couple of bucks.”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: So I thought it was just going to end there. And I tell her, I'm like, “Okay, do you want to grab, you know the replacement, then we can just do it here. I'll wait for you. I won't take anyone else from the line.” Immediately she looks at me. She's like, “I'm not going to get it.” I'm like, yeah, I was like, “Oh wait excuse me?” She's like “That's not my job. You're going to get it.”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh gosh.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Plain and simple. Just telling me what to do. And I said, “You know what? Okay, fine. If this will make you happy, if this will get you out of the store.”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: So I go over there, I go to lighting and furniture, get her, you know, her nightlight and she's examining it like it's like a golden nugget. And she’s just like, “You know what, no, not this one. Get me another one.” So, and I picked out the cleanest looking one, you know. I test it out a few times. I come back, she says, “No, no, no, not this one. Get me another one.” And then I decide “You know what, let's just get this over with.” I walked back over there, grabbed a bunch, and I just I went back, I'm like “Here we go,” and just laid it across the table. Just like toppling over each other. I'm like, “Here you go. I'm sorry, but choose for yourself. I'm not going to go back and forth. That's not my job.”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Here's a buffet.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: So she finally decided that she liked one and then she said before she left, she was like, “That was terrible customer service.” And I'm like, excuse me? But I went out of my way to help you get the item that you weren't supposed to get accommodated for in the first place.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Why do you think people so often asked to speak to the manager?

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Let me first preface this by saying I think everyone should work retail at least a year.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Just understand the basic understanding of, you know human interaction. And that's the thing, with these customers, they think they can get away with it if they complain to management. Everyone's well equipped with the right return policies, you know how to talk to customers. But the thing is when they don't get what they want, they belittle and you know, they force it until they get what they want, so.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: What do you think people feel comfortable belittling you until they get what they want?

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: To me personally, I think these customers don't think retail is a real job. They think it's like the bottom of the pyramid, you know like scum if, I'm being honest.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Because that's why they think, you know, they can just tell you whatever they want. They can just say whatever is on top of their head because it's like oh, I don't respect you enough to you know, follow with your rules, even though those rules are set in place.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. When I think about it, I, you know, just about my base assumptions about retail jobs, I often think that they are stuff that like maybe a younger person would have.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Yes.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Or that, you know, you have when you're younger and then you get like a, an office job or something and somehow that's the pinnacle.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Right.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: But really, that's you know, there's no real hierarchy of jobs or there shouldn't be.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Right. Exactly.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Like all jobs take skill and thought.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Right, because most of you know, the people that work retail, they're young. They're, you know, teenagers or like young adults. They're working for minimum wage.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Like, we're not there to ruin your life. We're not there to ruin your day. We're just there to work. We're doing a job, you know?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Has anyone do you think ever, okay, well maybe going to the fact that you were a supervisor.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Okay.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Were you ever not believed to be the supervisor or to be in a position of power?

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Yes, actually.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh my gosh.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Yeah it's like the best thing. Just saying “Oh, can I talk to a manager?” “I am the manager!” I love when that happens.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah? How do they usually react to that?

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Usually, it's a shock. Especially because being young, like I'm 24-years-old, so.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: People don't see authority as a 20-something-year-old. People see authority like your age. Sorry to say it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: But like you look wiser, you look older. Like they're immediately telling you like you can't be because you're young and you don't know anything. But it's like, again we're equipped with the same information. Just because I'm young doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, for sure.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: And going back to the age thing, I think again, that's another reason why they attack the younger people more because they think they can like you know, get them to cave in.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Interesting. So they think, you know, the younger people will be more intimidated.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Yes.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: From the sound of it, a lot of the issues though that people are going to the manager for can be dealt by you or even by you when you were just a cashier.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Yeah I was going to say, even a cashier. Like I said, we're dealt with the same training. We're dealt with the same understanding.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: But it's again, it's that pyramid. Like “Are you a cashier? Okay no, let me talk to a supervisor. Oh, you're just a supervisor? Okay let me talk to a manager.” And it even comes to a point where it's like “You're just a manager? Let me talk to corporate.” And that's like the king of like wow, okay.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, no that's dedication.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Like I said, it comes with a title. Title comes power.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: So, cashier doesn't really have that much power, unfortunately.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah. Has anyone ever asked “Can I speak to your manager?” in your experience, in a way that, you know, hasn't felt condescending or rude? Are there ways that you can ask this, that aren't so loaded?

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: Let me think about that. Because I would say 9 times out of 10, it comes off as rude and condescending. But to answer the question, first of all don't yell. You know, It's pretty simple.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: It's pretty simple where you're like, it's just you wouldn't talk to like, to someone you love in that manner, you know?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

JASON SUERTE FILIPE: I don't know. Just keep in mind, they're just doing their job.

[Music]

RYAN SCHOUTEN: My name is Ryan Schouten. One instance was a gentleman who decided to tell me a very racist joke that I will not repeat. And the way he ended it was an expectation of laughter. And I didn't laugh. I shut him down and I said, “You know what, I don't find that to be the funniest joke in the world. In fact, I find it to be pretty offensive.” And he goes, “Before I pay, I think I'd like to talk to someone above you.” Your gut always like sinks and you have like that feeling in the pit of your stomach, like maybe I did something wrong and maybe this will cost me my job. And I was worried that maybe they would decide that in this instance, the customer was right and I shouldn't have clapped back in the way that I did. But luckily I had a management team at the time that was very you know, they stood by their employees. And my manager was just like, “You know what, I don't need to hear the joke because I believe Ryan's take on it.” It was really, it was nice and refreshing to see those kind of values in action. They were able to make the decision that this situation surpassed this ideal that the customer is always right and we should be protecting our customers over our staff, because sometimes I feel like a lot of corporations talk a really big talk and make blanket statements, but to see another you know, employee, manager enforcing those values was very nice to see.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Like Jason mentioned, lots of people get asked this question when in fact they are the manager. This question can reveal a lot about who we think is in charge and who we think isn't.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Asha Allen-Silverstein owns The Beauty Collective, a workspace for beauty practitioners. She recently wrote an open letter about racism she's experienced as a Black business owner, including being asked, “Can I speak to the owner?”

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: Beauty salons get a lot of sales reps coming through. And like one time I had a guy come in and say, I don't even know what he was selling, to be honest, because we didn't get to that point. But he said “Can I speak to the owner?” And I said “Oh well that's me.” And I was like mopping at that point. And he was like “Oh, that's funny. Like, you got to aim for the job you want.” And I was like “Yeah okay well, I'm still the owner, so what are you selling?” Right. And, you know I'm going to leave like a fraction of error for just you know, everyone has moments where you say things that are kind of dumb, but the thing is, in this capacity and in this location, it's not just a one time situation like that. It kind of happens at least weekly.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Wow.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: Where if there is another practitioner in the space and two of the other practitioners here are white, they will always go to them, even if that person tries to direct the question to me because they don't have the answer. So that happens quite frequently, and I noticed what was happening and I actually had to kind of educate the other lady on that to start with, like pointed out to her what was happening. And then she was like “Oh, I wondered why they kept coming back to me,” you know so.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I may be stating the obvious. Why do you think people are behaving the way they are? So other than those dumb moments, and I will give a little benefit of doubt if you are sweeping the floor, so there is a possibility that person might have thought that you are the cleaning person.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: Okay well, I think cleaning people can come in all you know, shades and sizes and colours, and that's all great.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: I think a lot of business owners kind of wear many hats and...

HARVINDER WADHWA: Of course. Of course

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: ...might end up doing the cleaning and stuff too. Why do I think that people would assume that I can't own this business? Because most people look at me and see a Black woman. That's the shortest answer. There are a lot of stereotypes that go along with that and a lot of assumptions and a lot of unconscious bias. And in this society and I guess a lot of other societies in the world as well, there are limitations to what people believe someone of a certain colour or background can be, or can own, or has the ability to do. You know, I don't really need to have everyone know that I own this. Like that's not really super important to me.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: But it would be nice if when they found out they weren't like shocked.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right. Right.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Tell us about, more about that shock. Like when someone gives you that reaction, how do you find yourself reacting to that?

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: Well, I'm very used to it, right?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: Because to be you know, a person of colour or a Black woman, you, you know, experience a lot of microaggressions on a daily basis. So it's not really like, super shocking. But to me when someone is completely shocked, I'm like well, I can see your biases right now.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: You know I don't really take it that personally, but the problem with microaggressions is that, you know over time it gets to you. It's not you know, one situation is one situation and if that happened like once a year, I don't think I would be talking about it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: But if it happens enough that it kind of you know, unconsciously erode your belief in yourself.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And when somebody is disbelieving that you own the place, to me it's a disrespect. There is a, in my vocabulary there's no other word for it.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: Yeah. I don't think people are consciously trying to you know, be disrespectful, but I think what the Black Lives Matter movement and COVID and all of this has kind of brought to light is that people are just not that aware of kind of what's going on with other people around them.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: And so it sort of feels like a lot of white people just discovered that we existed and that we were having some issues. And so...

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: ...we're conditioned to kind of downplay our experiences. So when I first had that article written about the space and I think the title was something to the effect of you know, “Shop owner dealing with racism,” part of me was like, “Oh my God, like are my clients going to think that I think this about them? And was it that horrible?” And then you're like no, like I shouldn't have to deal with this, but the thing is, we've been dealing with this and a hundred times worse for like 400 years. So I guess over time you get desensitized.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. Because you have to maintain relationships with your clients, do you ever feel the need to to shrug off a microaggression when you'd rather call it out and be frank with them?

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: You have to pick your battles, you know, and with everything in life. Yeah, a lot of times you just kind of swallow and go, okay. You know, the worst part is when it's coming from someone that you kind of like and they're like really nice, so then you don't really want to cause like a whole scene or whatever.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: And on that note, it wouldn't almost be appropriate in a social sense to address those things before 2020, before this huge Black Lives Matter movement, because it just, you weren't allowed to say those things. Like the most freeing thing about this movement and about this time is that we are allowed to talk about our experiences. We are allowed to bring it up. And I can't tell you how amazing that is.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: Because if you said something before, it was just kind of, it was just not polite.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I mean, it's interesting, there it seems to be like a dynamic, a power dynamic, between like a white woman customer...We've heard a lot about this idea of a Karen lately. I see your smile. Yeah, it's kind of fascinating how many people have seen that person at their jobs and have gotten this kind of question from someone who fits that description.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: Karens are alive and well.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: No further questions!

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: Yeah, wow. You always have to try and make clients happy. So Karen or not, I don't know, I'm just used to calming people, reassuring them. All of those things. Like before they get to an episode, which is what we've come to expect in terms of Karens, and...

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: ...then they go, can I speak to your manager? And then the phone comes on and they start recording and then it turns into a hot mess. I feel like I'm really good at like, calming down the Karens.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So Asha, for things to get better, what changes would you propose?

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: Yeah I'm hoping that my clients will, you know at least see me as more of a human and if they can get close with me and feel comfortable, because beauty is very intimate. You're like up in their face and you're usually seeing them without makeup and you're trying to you know, enhance them, right? So there's a certain bond. So I hope that if they can have that relationship with me, that perhaps they can kind of move that forward in other areas of their life.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So in your experience Asha, is “Can I speak to your manager?” or “Can I speak to the owner?” an inappropriate question?

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: I mean, everyone always wants to kind of show their wingspan. If they were a peacock, they'd spread those feathers. You know cause it's like the only thing you can do as a threat if you're not getting your way. You're like, “I'm going to speak to your manager.” And you know what? I think people have the right as customers and clients to have good service, but at the end of the day like, everyone is just human. And I think it's a more effective approach to just be kind and reasonable and try to work something out with somebody before it has to get to that point.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: But I do think that people also need to be cautious and aware that that could be hurtful, the assumption that you know, you have to just be an employee. And not that there's anything wrong with being an employee.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right, yeah.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: But, you know, you can't tell who's who in this world. And we need to get to that point where the assumption that a Black woman can not own a store front in a predominantly white area.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: There was no rule that said I couldn't. At least not a written one.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

ASHA ALLEN-SILVERSTEIN: We've passed that stage, but there's still an, you know, an unwritten rule in people's minds that says this just can't be. And I would like if that could shift where it wasn't shocking anymore.

[Music]

GRAVE BEVAN: Hi I'm Grace. I am a writer and artist and being that, I have spent a considerable amount of time in retail over the years. I personally am a big proponent of customers asking for the manager, because at the end of the day as a cashier, I am at the bottom of the food chain. I have no power. I have to call a manager in any way, even if I just want like a return to go through that was over $50. People seem to think we have all of these magical powers that we can just change company policy and make exceptions and all that, but we're tightly restricted to what we can actually do. Calling a manager is like getting an adult who is allowed to do things into the room. They have the power to say, “I understand that's the policy and I'll make an exception.” I think you should ask to speak to the manager because at the end of the day, there's more of a power balance that's fair. Bullying you know, a cashier or other employee, it just isn't the way to go. If you're going to get rude with someone, get rude with a manager.

[Music]

HARVINDER WADHWA: So far, our guests have been speaking about a problematic dynamic between workers and customers. And it has to do with biases towards the employee's race or their age or similar factors.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, these assumptions about who has power seem to click in so automatically when someone walks into a business. I'm curious about all where, where this all comes from. So we're speaking to Dr. Laura Morgan Roberts, a professor of practice at the University of Virginia. Her background is in organizational psychology, which is the study of how people interact at work. And one of her main focuses is on race and diversity in the workplace.

HARVINDER WADHWA: We have been hearing a lot of stories of mistreatment of retail and service workers. From your point of view, what are the reasons we as a society have come to this?

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: We've moved into a sphere of operating where, I mean when I was a kid, like the Burger King tagline, "Have It Your Way" was a big deal. Like that was a, that was a differentiator. Yeah Burger King, you can have it your way. You go and you order the sandwich how you want. I mean, now it's like you better have some customization options here.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: People can do so much online without having to interact with another human being at all. So when they go into these retail environments now, I really fear that we are losing the ability to see and engage and interact with other humans as humans. We think that everything in that space should be designed to serve us. And that is a very different orientation on a retail interaction. And it just creates of a level of pressure. People don't have the same patience as they had before, because if I'm on a you know, a major retail site, I put it in my basket while I'm watching TV, feeding my kids dinner, and I checked out and paid and it's going to be at my door in 48 hours. Period. Right? So once I'm at the store and then I have to wait for someone to move out of my way. The one I'm looking for is not on the shelf. Heaven forbid I have to go ask somebody, where is the light bulb that I'm looking for?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: You know, I'm already agitated.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: Because I have grown out of the habit you know of engaging and interacting in that way. So, you know, what happens then is we dehumanize the people who work in those spaces.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: In the workplace, if we can make such generalizations, who gets assumed to be someone who could be an authority figure or in a position of power and, and who doesn't?

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: You know there is such a wide range of different workplace configurations, right? And there's so many different roles and responsibilities and or structures where there is more hierarchy or there's less hierarchy. You think it'd be kind of a toss up, right? But in truth, there are some patterns and those patterns align with people who have held the power over property ownership and business ownership. We would look at these demographic characteristics of race, gender, and to a certain extent, social class, sexual orientation, which would suggest that you're a white cisgender male, you're more likely to be granted the authority.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I would have never expected that!

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Is this sarcasm I detect?

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: And so we can talk about like how that power is granted in formal and informal ways through the course of an everyday work life. You know and so much of it really is tied to the history of property ownership in this land.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So does that also impact the how the people are treated? Because now you are supposed to be serving me, that is one aspect of it, but then if you're serving me you're also inferior to me. If a non-white person is serving you, then that person may be inferior to you and that's where the more questions come, “Can I speak to your manager?” or to your boss, or whatever the case may be.

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: It re-enacts a script of servitude. And sadly, because of the origins of race and racism, certainly in the U.S, but in many other countries, Black people, people of African descent were enslaved. And so therefore we're put into 400 years of intergenerational servitude. And those scripts are not unlearned overnight, you know, with a civil war or a piece of legislation or an Emancipation Proclamation that might change the law, but the script is what people engage with on a day to day basis. And those assumptions were baked in for a very long time.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: Around these power dynamics and who was in charge and who wasn't in charge. So for you to then see somebody who is in a service role and is Black and brown, then one, not only do you expect them to be there to cater to your needs and if necessary, to put your needs above their own needs. Right?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right, right.

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: So it's like a sacrificial act of catering to your needs. Like you need to be going above and beyond and you know. And then there's also this piece of, I can exercise authority over you, whether I'm your formal boss or not. Like I can get you in trouble. So with Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper in Central Park, you know the world saw through a videotaped exchange in Manhattan when he tried to ask her to abide by the rules or the laws, she immediately began to enact this script whereby she didn't like what he did.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: So in that case, she couldn't call the manager. She couldn't tell the boss but she's gonna call the police. She's going to call some authority person to tell them that they needed to come to her aid against him because they didn't like how he was acting or behaving. The dynamic transcends.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So I'm getting back to that question and I am quite sure in two minutes we are not going to solve that problem.

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: Okay.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: We'll try!

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: Darn it!

HARVINDER WADHWA: So how do we get out of this vicious cycle?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah. How can we change the dynamic? Cause it seems like this goes deeper and further than just being a retail problem or the dynamic only exists in this kind of retail and service industry. But as customers like what, what can we do to change this?

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: Yeah, as customers, as co-workers, you treat other human beings with the same dignity and respect that you would treat a member of your family. You value their time. You presume that they have some insight and some wisdom to share. You ask them for their help. You don't demand that they respond to your need, you know, immediately and in the moment. And if something isn't working or you're not happy with the way that you've been served, give them the opportunity to remedy the situation before you immediately jump into policing mode and call the manager, you know or try to bring in the authority person.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Laura, if I may add here, because even if you don't get a top-notch service, even if it is a little subpar, should it not be taken as this is what we should be okay to accept in some cases, if not all the cases?

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: I just say give a little grace.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yes.

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: I mean, if you're spending TGI Friday's money, you're gonna get TGI Friday's service. Like don't expect just because a Black or brown person shows up to serve you, that all of a sudden you're going to have the five-star gourmet treatment. Yeah, let's just show a little grace. You're not bending over backwards to create the most amazing service encounter ever.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

LAURA MORGAN ROBERTS: So it's okay if somebody is a little short or somebody is a little tender or a little raw or doesn’t go above and beyond. Is it really a big enough deal for you to have to call the manager and report them? Was it egregious or was it just something that, you know got under your skin and you didn't like it? If so, just tell them that, but don't jump to calling the manager right away.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: After listening to our guests Harv, do you think you're still going to ask for the manager sometimes?

HARVINDER WADHWA: This one has me a little bit stumped.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah?

HARVINDER WADHWA: I still think that this is an appropriate question. However, however, I need to be cognizant of my biases. I don't think so, I have any, but then that would be a lie because we all have some biases.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Totally.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So note to self: pause for a second and just rethink why you are asking for the manager. And maybe that would help you, whether you should or you shouldn't be asking for the manager.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I think that's super fair. You know, everyone really emphasized how you ask this question and just human decency, which is my big takeaway here. Just remember that someone's just trying to do their job and find a way, hopefully, to work it out before you escalate and just be sensitive at every level.

HARVINDER WADHWA: All righty. So Elena, is this our last episode?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Last episode of this season, yeah. How are you feeling?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Oh. I am, it is a bittersweet moment I should say it, because now I'll have a bit more free time. But at the same time, I am really going to miss these discussions and meeting these wonderful guests.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And working with you guys. Cindy, Sabrina, Elena, it was so much fun.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yay! Well me too. Thank you. If you've been listening this season, thank you so much as well. And we'd love to hear from you. Let us know what you thought. If there was an episode this season that stood out to you, or tell us what inappropriate questions you've experienced in your own life. We love hearing about that. You can reach out to us @IQ_podcast on Twitter or Instagram. And also at cbc.ca/iqpodcast.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Thank you folks.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Thanks so much everybody.

[Music]

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm Harvinder Wadhwa.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And I'm Elena Hudgins Lyle.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Thanks for getting inappropriate with us.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: A huge thanks to our guests: Jason Suerte Filipe, Asha Allen-Silverstein and Laura Morgan Roberts. You also heard voice notes from Ryan Schouten and Grace Bevan.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Every episode has an accompanying web comic and this week it was illustrated by Amie Wilensky. You can find it on Instagram @IQ_podcast. Also, make sure to visit cbc.ca/iqpodcast for a full transcript and more resources.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: The notable nerds behind this podcast are Sabrina Bertsch, Cindy Long and myself. The show is mixed by Andrew Norton. Our digital producers are Judy Ziyi Gu and Sarah Claydon. The senior producer of CBC Podcasts is Tanya Springer and the executive producer is Arif Noorani.

[Theme out]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: An inappropriate question is like a customer showing up just a few minutes before closing.

TRANSCRIPT: Inappropriate Questions - Season 2, EP 7

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