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HARVINDER WADHWA: Hello listeners. This episode contains some foul language, discretion is advised.

[Theme]

HARVINDER WADHWA: People are curious, and that's great.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: But there are some questions you just shouldn't ask or at least not like that.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm Harvinder Wadhwa.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I'm Elena Hudgins Lyle.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And this is Inappropriate Questions.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Let's get inappropriate.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Harv, do you have a self care routine?

HARVINDER WADHWA: What the hell do you mean? Are you talking about my shower habits?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: OK, that's not what I was going for. I mean, stuff that you've started to do for your mental health or happiness. I know a lot of these things have been things people have been adopting, especially during the last year.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yes, yes, yes. But remember, we discussed this. I like to jog, but it is only when the temperature is between 20 and 22.5 degrees, windchill taken into account.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: OK, what you told me is that you gave up jogging. So this is good to hear, you’re just a very particular jogger.

HARVINDER WADHWA: No, no, no, not at all. I just didn't find that temperature I’m waiting for. What about you, Elena?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Well, I am absolutely awful at forming habits, but during the pandemic I have been walking a lot. I live next to a big park and every couple of days, I go for a long walk with my brother. And I'm on the topic of these things because we're revisiting a question that we did last season “Have you tried _____?”

HARVINDER WADHWA: Oh, I remember that it was about chronic illness.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: When we were making that episode, we were thinking also about how that question gets asked to people dealing with mental health issues as well, like anxiety and depression.

HARVINDER WADHWA: OK, so we are transitioning from chronic illness to mental health issues?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, exactly. From my experience, I have anxiety. I go to therapy and do stuff like that for it. But when you're having a hard time with your mental health, you can get a lot of these same suggestions that people with chronic illness get, like try mindfulness, try exercise. And I love to walk in the park. It does help with my mental health. But after my walk in the park, my underlying anxiety that's just so much a part of my life is still there. So I find this question pretty annoying.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yeah. On our chronic illness episode, a lot of our guests found this question annoying, too.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm interested to see if it's the same for our guests who are coming from mental illness perspective.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, me too. We shall see.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Kelsey Darragh is an actor, comedian, producer and mental health advocate. If you're from my generation, you might know her from BuzzFeed videos. She's also the author of OK, how should I say this?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Don’t F-star-cking Panic.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Don't Fucking Panic: The Shit They Don't Tell You in Therapy about Anxiety Disorder, Panic Attacks, & Depression.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Just for the name of the book. I'm going to read it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: You should.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So, Kelsey, we are talking about people giving unsolicited suggestions and asking the question like, “have you tried this?” Do you have a story of someone suggesting things like that?

KELSEY DARRAGH: Oh, my God, I'm trying to think of the most outrageous one, right? Like you hear at all when I've been in the mental health system for like more than 13 years now.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

KELSEY DARRAGH: So I feel like I've gone to every kind of therapist, every kind of psychiatrist, every kind of doctor, a healer, yoga, pilates instructor, juice cleanser. And I feel like I've gotten everything, everything from like, you need to just smoke weed. And I'm like, if I smoke weed, I will rip a hole in my brain and then I'll really be like, I'll never come back like weed actually gives me anxiety.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I’m out.

KELSEY DARRAGH: Yeah and for some people it helps and it's their medicine and I support that. So for like the most outrageous though, I feel like like a walk it off is something I look for. OK, sure. I'll walk it off, shake it off. Go take a lap. I'm like, oh that'll do. Yeah. That must be the cure is I just haven't done a lap in a while!

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I think this is a big one for me at the pandemic because I saw an article that really related to my pandemic experience. It was from Reductress, like a satirical article. The headline was “I am a simple afternoon walk and you're putting too much pressure on me to cure everything.”

KELSEY DARRAGH: Honestly, sometimes I'm like, I'm going to get sunburnt on this afternoon off. And that's going to cause a whole host of problems I didn't have before. This seems more stressful than relaxing.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Totally fair. Stepping back a bit, can you tell us a bit about your history with mental health?

KELSEY DARRAGH: Yeah, it's such a funny question because I feel like, you know, for so long, I had always in my mind known my mental health journey to be starting in such a specific place in my life. And it was when I had my first panic or what I thought was my first panic attack on an airplane. And then, of course, you do some therapy. And really it was in my book writing journey that I realized my anxiety and mental health experience started way younger than I had ever thought.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

KELSEY DARRAGH: I mean, you remember times of like I would be like six years old after soccer practice and I thought I was having, like, an asthma attack or I wouldn't be able to swallow. All of a sudden, my parents rushed me to the E.R. and they they were going to do all these tests on me. But first they had to dose me with some baby Valium because I wouldn't stop freaking out. Like we're just going to give a shot of, like Valium. And as soon as I got that Valium, I was totally fine. And they couldn't find anything. And they just sent me home and they were just like, we don't know what that was. That was weird. Crazy anyway, moving on with life. And I was like, no one like, stopped to be like, what was that? Or maybe we should, like, take her to a therapist? So I realized through writing that, you know, my panic actually started very young and my anxiety disorder was always kind of bubbling beneath the surface. But it didn't really creep out to be disruptive until my teenage years. And then it got chalked up to being hormones. And I'm just dramatic and attention seeking blah, blah, blah.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh gosh.

KELSEY DARRAGH: I realized that I've been dealing with this my whole life. So that's kind of like my probs, 99 problems and I've had all of them, you know?

HARVINDER WADHWA: So tell us a little bit more as to, did it get worse over time or you have had it, whatever the frequency was, it just continued. And you have, mainly you are talking about the panic attacks, but what about depression?

KELSEY DARRAGH: I've definitely seen it as waves. And like, I feel like this is important for people to understand is that at times it can feel like a mountain, right? And that it's just getting worse and worse and worse. But good will always come. Bad cannot exist forever. I mean, it can feel like it. I can think of a time in my twenties that felt like it was years that I was depressed and trying to balance and seeking management, taking pills and different medications.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right, yeah.

KELSEY DARRAGH:But with a depression for me, I think it really started at that young age that it does kind of pop up in women is is like early teenage years. And I would be able to sleep for thirteen hours. You know, I come from home, from school and sleep all the way through the night and into the next morning. And they were just like, she's a growing gal!

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

KELSEY DARRAGH: Or you know, she's just tired. She's in all these activities. But, you know, it's very interesting. I'm kind of curious about like y’alls experiences with mental health. I try not to, like, interview you guys via podcast, drowsier about like, do you feel like you ever lived with something that you thought was totally normal until someone told you, like, that's not normal. Like your life shouldn't feel that way or you shouldn't feel that pain or you shouldn't feel that thing?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh, my gosh, I am totally right now in the process of trying to figure out if I have ADHD and I definitely have some sort of anxiety, but it is very funny talking to people who don't have these things or I wrote a journal entry right before the pandemic about how I had nothing together and I was just struggling and I kept procrastinating on tiny tasks and what is wrong with me. And during the pandemic, I started kind of being like, oh, it may be my brain's doing this other thing. Maybe that's why like some people can really relate to my experience that other people are like, what are you talking about? You just need to focus. And I'm like, OK. What about your experience, Harv?

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm just a troll.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So, hey, hate trolls need mental health care too!

KELSEY DARRAGH: Everybody! The funny thing is, is like a thing that I like to say is every single person on this earth has mental health and every single person on this earth experiences anxiety. It's just about the ebb and flow and the flux of how you experience it. And even trolls need mental health.

HARVINDER WADHWA: No, I was being a little facetious because my daughter keeps telling me I'm not normal. But I 100 per cent agree. Yes, it is just the frequency, because I have seen myself like days where I am just so down for no good reason. And then I come out of it and it's thanks to the family and the friends support. I do come out of it. But luckily it doesn't happen too often. But definitely your, I 100 per cent agree with you.

KELSEY DARRAGH: Well, you said something interesting is I felt that same feeling of like it comes out of nowhere or like it comes out of nowhere for no good reason. But the chances are like there's usually there usually is a reason, whether it be something that happened to you one moment before or 20 years ago, you know, like there there are things that if you're willing to be a little vulnerable and brave and interested and curious with yourself to to look inward, that we can sometimes find that thing that is causing it. Because there's no more frustrating thing than feeling like you don't have control over your own mental health. It's scary.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So, Kelsey. Well, again, you don't have to answer any of the questions you don't want to but—

KELSEY DARRAGH: I probably will.

HARVINDER WADHWA: OK, so are you taking any medication?

KELSEY DARRAGH: Yeah, I do. So it's hard to give specific names to medication one because it's not everyone can have them in the same country.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right.

KELSEY DARRAGH: And two, I don't ever want someone to think that just because I'm on something that they should try that because it's so different for each person. Right. These are all broad terms. These are all sort of standard medications that people will try when diagnosed. What I can say is that I have found additions to my medication that are more naturopathic and actually ayurvedic and.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right, OK.

KELSEY DARRAGH: And that I know sometimes I'm going to be on medication and sometimes I'm off. I've been on off. I've switched. I've gone up. I've gone down. I've tapered. I've had bad reactions. I've, you know, added things to it, taking it away. So it's a process to find medication that works for you. If you're someone that wants to be with medication.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So along with the medication, what other things you do to help you cope?

KELSEY DARRAGH: Habits have been like a huge piece of my sanity, not to put it lightly. It was so important for me to establish habits and routines and realized that it's not healthy to strive for goals, but it's healthier for me to strive for help like habits in my life. So I really like to implement stretching every day. I go to therapy every week.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

KELSEY DARRAGH:I love to journal finding a practice that involves healthy healing. So for me it wasn't about like digging into my childhood trauma. I'm like vomiting all the like up, been talking about it. It's like everyone has that for me. I enjoy like mantra work, which is like here and now and empowers me and doesn't make me feel bad. You know, I of course, you know, there's a time and a place to do the work. But I love mantras hanging out in the group chat, checking in with my girlfriends. Like all of these little habits have become part of my routine and routine gives you so much freedom. And I think that that's really important for people that live with mental health stuff. It makes things a little bit easier.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: We’ll be right back after this quick break.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: We’re back and this episode we’ve been revisiting the question “Have you tried ____?” with actor and mental health advocate Kelsey Darragh. How do you approach giving mental health advice, you know, in a way that you think will be really actually helpful for people, because I think behind this question, we're talking about this episode. Sometimes it can be hard to take advice and advice like unsolicited advice, unsolicited, if you're reading someone's book for sure. How do you, when you're sitting down to write this book, how do you approach doing that in a way that you think other people will find helpful and respectful?

KELSEY DARRAGH: Yeah. Well, yeah, I even in the book I mentioned this that I purposefully, like, really wanted to nail home, that I was not a doctor. Yeah. Not only because I don't want to get sued, that's what people think. And I'm like, no, no, no. I said that because I, I'm one of you, right. Like, I'm not a doctor. I'm not trying to sell you something. Like, it was really important to me to create, like, this workbook that's a tool kit. This is me being like, look, this thing exists. Then look like this thing didn't work for me, but I still want you to know it exists.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

KELSEY DARRAGH: So here's the table. Here's this bread I brought you whatever you want. And if you're not hungry, like walk away or if you don't want to, like, toss it, spit it out, like, just try it share with a friend. Like, it was important for me to just include a multitude of things for for people to try to relate to. Right. And being a patient rather than the doctor, I feel like gives me a little bit more level and ground with people.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah. In that same vein, you know when you were going through, deciding different things to try, do you find that it's taking advice, feels better when it's like maybe someone who's gone through something similar or someone who's been there and you're like, OK, yeah, I trust you. And even if my mental health is very different and this doesn't work for me?

KELSEY DARRAGH: Totally, I think the most annoying thing that, like, I try to stay away from and I'm guilty of accidentally doing it is telling someone like, oh, man, like you have to try this thing. Or like, it really changed my life and like, oh, I can't recommend it enough. And everybody's mental health is different. What mine looks like is not what yours looks like. It's like it's important to like watch how even I, as a mental health advocate, kind of talk about this stuff because it can get really dark, like we're talking about, like, you know, unaliving yourself or like, you know, suicidal ideology. You know, like big stuff that can be really triggering for people. And so it's important to educate yourself enough to know, kind of like the basics of how to be there for someone and not make anything worse than it already is for people.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right, yeah. What are some of those basics of how to be there for someone, what you say?

KELSEY DARRAGH: Oh, I love this question because I wish I had known this, you know, when I was in my thickest bouts of depression and anxiety. I think the base level is like, hey, I'm here for you. Or like, hey, I'm checking in on my strong friend or hey, I'm just, you know, wondering how you are like checking in and can I be there? Is there anything you need? How can I help? And sometimes we don't know what we need and sometimes we just need someone to ask. Sometimes we need a hug. Sometimes we need you to stay the fuck away from me. You know, it's about getting to know the person. And obviously, if you care because you're asking, you'll figure that out.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah. Well, that's great.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So going back to a question, “Have you tried this?” Is it an inappropriate question for someone who's having mental health issues?

KELSEY DARRAGH: No. No, because people need help, like we're not meant to do this thing alone. Yeah, like you're born alone. You die alone in the moments we have in between our to share and like as long as you're not a dick about it and you're not intrusive and you do it in a way that's like it might be unsolicited, but someone might need to be offered something without asking you if you love that person, you know that person. I think it's OK to not necessarily cross the boundary, but like just throw a suggestion out there, see how they respond.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

KELSEY DARRAGH: With that being said, there's a big old caveat of, like, know when to shut up, too.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I think that could be a subtitle of our show, know when to shut up! That’s one of Harv’s faves for sure.

KELSEY DARRAGH: Yeah, yeah. But I can say personally, I've never felt so uncomfortable that it messed me up when I've been given advice about mental health, you know, like sometimes I'll be like, oh, jeez, oh, if I only did more yoga, if I only did more breath work. OK, thank you. But like, I've never been like that messed me up, you know, it's, it's, it's just becomes an annoyance. It's kind of like, OK, move on with my life. Right, thank you.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Llooking at the book, there was a moment when you were talking about, gosh, like if some other person tells me, but I just need to do more yoga. If I had a dollar for abs, I would said that I would be at a yard with Cardi B, but then you also want to be like, well yoga’s actually been helpful.

KELSEY DARRAGH: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't think. Because we're talking about mental health, I think it's different. It's something that's still so taboo and I think anyone that's talking about it is doing a miracle.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And I want to add here, it also the cultural thing, because now I would say the Western societies, they have evolved to the extent that they have understood that there is something called mental health issues.

KELSEY DARRAGH: Yes.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And in Eastern society, I’m from India, so I’ll be very clear when I'm saying Eastern societies, that 99 plus per cent people don't even recognize it. And either you are, sorry if I'm sounding rude, either you are mad or your normal. So there is nothing in between the two and the word they use is mad,

KELSEY DARRAGH: Like it sounds like an old like 50s film. Like he’s gone mad!

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yes, absolutely. And that's still there. That's absolutely still there. People will make fun of you. People will make fun of you if you even try to approach these subjects in a more sensitive way.

KELSEY DARRAGH: I definitely feel like millennials are the generation that are have kind of like broke the surface, right? Because like, I know people that are a bit older than me or even my parents. No way. No way could they talk about that stuff. Yeah. My dad could never like we have so much work to do because then there's also this like generational healing that we also need to allow for people that didn't get to do that. Like there's people that still don't have that now.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Totally!

KELSEY DARRAGH: If we're talking about, like sex and you're giving me advice, I'm like, I'm good, thank you. You can be quiet. But that's all I'm like, yes, keep going. Let's hear more. Keep talking. Like, let's go keep the conversation alive. You know,

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm glad you clarified because I was not thinking of pulling our previous episode from the catalog because that was considered.

KELSEY DARRAGH: Ah yeah.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Wait, wait the ones about sex you mean?

HARVINDER WADHWA: No! I'm talking about “Have you tried this?”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, because we actually did talk about this question when it comes to chronic illness, actually.

KELSEY DARRAGH: Oh! Yeah, OK, as a spoonie, I got to say, that is a different ballpark for sure.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah. So you feel like it's different for mental health and physical health?

KELSEY DARRAGH: I do. Even though they should be treated as the same. I think physical health is exploited, right? Like we have every diet, every exercise, every club, every membership for that. We don't have that for mental health! If we had that for mental health, my God, I'd be like a totally different conversation. I think it's just taking off, like seeing all the popularity with meditation apps or like, you know, therapy, online therapy codes and advertisements. I'm like, yes, I don't think I'm ever going to get sick of talking about mental health until someone's talking about selling me snake oil cure.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Love that for you.

KELSEY DARRAGH: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Music]

HARVINDER WADHWA: I mean, I just loved the interview with Kelsey.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Me too.

HARVINDER WADHWA: It was a lot of fun and two takeaways from my perspective or one, it's not an inappropriate question. So we finally nailed a question which is not inappropriate. The second thing is which I was expecting some kind of a solution.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: But there is no solution yet. So different people will find different solutions and they will have to find it themselves.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, for sure. On a personal level, I still think this question could be really annoying, which to be fair, Kelsey acknowledged. But I did just love her openness about this question and even its potential just to encourage more conversations about mental health, which, you know, we've definitely made strides, like you said, but I guess we still have farther to go than I realized.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So after having this conversation, are you going to add to your self care routine?

HARVINDER WADHWA:Yes, of course. I mean, I have spoken about that, that I am a jogger at heart and I am just waiting for the perfect 22 degrees temperature. For our American listeners, 71.6 degrees Fahrenheit temperature. The moment I get it, kindly message me and I will go for a jog.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: OK, so I got to be involved now too? Like, I got to drop it in the group chat that you got to go for a jog?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Just in case I miss that perfect time.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Okay, we’re so busy Harv!

[Theme up]

HARVINDER WADHWA: This is Harvinder Wadhwa.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And this is Elena Hudgins Lyle.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Thanks for getting inappropriate for us.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Thanks so much to our guest Kelsey Darragh.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Every episode has an accompanying webcomic and this week it was illustrated by Wren Chavers. You can find it on Instagram @IQ_podcast. Also, make sure to visit cbc.ca/iqpodcast for a full transcript of this episode.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: The plucky producers behind this podcast are Sabrina Bertsch, Cindy Long and myself. The show is mixed by Andrew Norton. Our chase producer is Sarah Melton and our digital producer is Judy Ziyi Gu. Our senior producer is Geoff Turner and our executive producer is Arif Noorani.

[Theme out]

HARVINDER WADHWA: An inappropriate question is like taking a long walk to destress, but then getting a sunburn.

Transcript: Inappropriate Questions Season 3, Episode 10

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