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[Theme]

HARVINDER WADHWA: People are curious, and that's great.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: But there are some questions you just shouldn't ask or at least not like that.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm Harvinder Wadhwa.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I'm Elena Hudgins Lyle.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And this is Inappropriate Questions.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Let's get inappropriate.

[Theme out]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Harv when you meet someone new, what's the first question that you ask to get to know them?

HARVINDER WADHWA: I just try to make some small talk.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Weather?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Oh weather. Yes, weather is one. Yes.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: What I’m getting at is that I think oftentimes the first thing people ask is, “What do you do?” about job and stuff? I'm sure you've seen that.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Actually most Indians that's the first question, but that's the reason why I don't ask that question.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yes, you march to the beat of your own drum. We do ask people about careers a lot, especially when someone's on the edge of a change. We'll ask things like, “What are you going to do now?” You know, maybe to people who are about to graduate from school, that kind of thing. And I think you actually might know some people who fit into that category.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I know Elena exactly where you're going, you're talking about our two guests.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yes.

HARVINDER WADHWA: I somehow know both of them. Their names are Harbani Wadhwa and Rymn Wadhwa and I guess you would have understood they’re my daughters.

RYMN WADHWA: Hi,.

HARBANI WADHWA: Hi.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Hey!

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Can you introduce yourselves? Just briefly talk about where you're at in your school life/career life right now.

HARBANI WADHWA: I'm Harbani. I'm in grade 11 and I'm graduating high school next year.

RYMN WADHWA: My name is Rymn. I'm in my final year of my undergrad in industrial engineering. So I'll be graduating this April.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So given that you're both at this place of being close to graduating, Rymn do people ask you this question “What are you going to do now?”

RYMN WADHWA: Oh, all the time. And I kind of do the same thing as my dad. I don't like to ask other people because who wants to answer that question? But I, of course, I want to know the answer. I always say, “I don't know, things will just come to me.” You know, things like that. And I feel like I'm just trying to be funny and like, not answer it. But people always read that as I have no idea what I'm doing with my life, which is like also true, but not the vibe I'm trying to put out.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So are people unsatisfied with that answer?

RYMN WADHWA: I think so, because they'll be like, “What do you want to do?” And I'll be like, “Oh, I kind of just want to move to Italy and own a fruit cart.” Which, honestly, is only a partial lie. I feel like it's an obvious deflection, but they got to know more, you know.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: How do you feel about this, this life plan Harv?

HARVINDER WADHWA: For as long as I get free fruit, I'm OK.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: What about you, Bani?

HARBANI WADHWA: I think not having an answer is a little more appropriate. Like, it's not that big a deal because most people around my age don't know what they're doing. I think it's just the whole idea. And I think the big reason that I hate this question is because it's very anxiety inducing. It's kind of something that I like to suppress, and then someone decides to just kind of bring it up and then I have to confront it. And it’s just not fun. But it's just, it's still overwhelming, even if it's coming from like the right place. And I do need to know this information. It's just not. It's just very scary.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: It's like, I need this, but also screw off.

HARBANI WADHWA: Exactly, exactly.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Rymn, do you feel any pressure to know what you're going to do next?

RYMN WADHWA: I'm kind of chill with it to be real with you.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Nice, that’s good.

RYMN WADHWA: I know that sounds very privileged. Maybe I should be a little bit more stressed. I'm lucky enough where I really feel confident that something will come along, and I'm not super concerned about hitting my like, just hitting the nail on the head with finding my dream career like the second I graduate, I'm sure it'll happen. I think there was a thousand times more pressure when I was in Bani’s stage to be honest.

HARBANI WADHWA: I don't know. I mean, I'm not in university, so I couldn't speak to it. But it sounds like at least you have a career. At least you have like a vague idea of where your life is going. For me, I have like a million different programs, a million different universities I get to look at. And so it's almost more overwhelming to see like how many options I have, my sister has it narrowed down to like, this is what I'm doing.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. Yeah.

HARBANI WADHWA: I think the pressure is very internal.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So does it matter who asks this question?

RYMN WADHWA: Yeah, I think it matters. I think there's a big difference between like a homie asking versus a family friend who's like for some reason very invested in your career and feels the need to give you advice. It's because the advice is always from someone who doesn't know anything about you. They just have to have an opinion. They're not in your field. If you want advice about your career, you go to, you go to a mentor, you go to someone, a colleague or something, you know what I mean?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right.

RYMN WADHWA: I feel like 9 times out of 10, your family friend doesn't have anything to offer you.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Have you guys ever, not to put Harv on blast, but has your dad asked you this?

RYMN WADHWA: It's not really an ask. He's told us, you know, he’s told us what we're going to do.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yeah. So that was not inappropriate at all.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah. How do you, how do you feel about it Harv? Like what's it like seeing your daughters at these kind of transitional phases of life?

HARVINDER WADHWA: It is challenging for me as well. I want them to do well, and when I'm using the word well, I'm using it in a very broad sense.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right, yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: They should choose the career that they enjoy because they're going to work probably in that field, in a related field for the rest of their lives. So they have to enjoy it. And also financially, it's decently rewarding. I am not looking for them to become multimillionaires, but at least they should have enough fiscal means to be comfortable. It is then quite up to them. Fortunately, Bani is not at that stage yet, but Rymn chose a field which is not too bad. So it’s okay.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Gets a pass from dad.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So Rymn and Harbani, what do you hope to learn from this episode?

RYMN WADHWA: I guess I want to hear a little bit more about the anxiety of hearing this question because I feel really lucky. I don't feel anxious about it. I just don't like the conversation. I don't want advice. But I think a lot of people have genuine anxiety when it comes to this and actual like fears, and it's very stressful.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Well, thank you both for your thoughts, and I'm interested in looking into that anxiety too. And with that, we conclude take your kids to work day!

HARVINDER WADHWA: OK, I thought that was a one time thing when you take your kids to work, when they're in grade nine. I did not know it had to happen again.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: When you have a podcast, man, the possibilities are endless. So I'm to understand they're not getting a column on our show any time soon?

HARVINDER WADHWA: No, we are done.

[Music]

ANNE WILSON: “What do you do?” is really almost synonymous with “Who are you?”

KRISTA GULOIEN: We've watched you for eight plus years doing this. This was so fun, what you got next?

VANIA: Asking them, “When are you going back to work?” like, there's an assumption.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I'm a big sports fan, well, like one sport, I watch hockey.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And I watch cricket. That's it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And together we like one sport each! A big place I hear about this question is from athletes who are retiring. They tend to retire quite early compared to, I guess, most people.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yes, I wish I was a professional athlete. I could have retired by now. Like decades ago.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Well, I think we're about to hear that retiring in your 30s from sports is maybe not all glam. We're speaking to Krista Guloien. She's a retired rower who won a silver medal at the 2012 Olympics as part of Canada's women's eight team. She also wrote a book about the transition out of life as an athlete called Beyond the Finish Line. What happens when the endorphins fade?

KRISTA GULOIEN: I think we were asked, “What are you going to do now?”, like on the podium? It was, it was quick. It was like, “Hey, now that you're done,” you're like “aah!” So that was probably the most abrupt, shocking timing of that question.

HARVINDER WADHWA: People don't waste time.

KRISTA GULOIEN: No, they don't. Humans know, like they can come in, feel the situation, find the most awkward question and then giver. They just go for it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right, yeah. Oh, I don't know what it is about us, man. What did it feel like to get asked this question initially, like so quickly after winning a medal?

KRISTA GULOIEN: I think it's different for everyone, and for me, it felt like a huge weight of pressure. It felt really uncomfortable, I think for some of my teammates who had a set kind of plan in the background. It could have been easier for them to answer the question and say, like, “Oh, I'm going back to finish my law degree” or I'm doing this or I’m doing that, I didn't really have a plan. And then second to that was this pressure I chose to put on myself of, “Oh God, how am I going to impress everyone again?” Like, this feeling of being on top of the world right now. How am I going to keep this? What the heck am I going to do that’s going to be good enough? And so I started to, like, really struggle with that. I think I still struggle with that a little bit today, like 10 years, we're almost at our 10 year anniversary from 2012.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: You were not thinking of again competing in four years? Because there are a lot of tournaments. It's not just Olympics, right?

KRISTA GULOIEN: Right. I retired cold turkey in 2013, so I was 33 in 2013. As I was getting older, I was wanting to do other things too, and I focused on that. It's so intense the focus you have to have and you're in such a bubble when you're doing it, you know, it seems like it looks so fun. And you know, the athletes are so vibrant and just living the dream for, you know, nine minutes on one day that, you know, our race was six minutes.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Damn.

KRISTA GULOIEN: Those are the glory moments. But the day in, day out training, it's very isolated. And I had only took phone calls a certain time because I was resting and then I was practicing and then I was, you know, just mentally drained. It felt like time for me. I think hanging on and trying to continue that would have just been messy.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Right, right.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And that's what's so interesting about athletic careers versus other careers is that, like you said, you have to have that focus and then often you do end earlier than, you know, an office job would, you know or another kind of job would.

KRISTA GULOIEN: Yeah, it's an unorthodox choice to direct all your time and energy and attention into something like your sport.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

KRISTA GULOIEN: And I think that when you are doing something unorthodox and finally is an opportunity for you to join everybody else, they're like, that was probably part of the reason why they were asked, “What are you going to do now to be like us? Like, you're finally on our side, you're no longer the outlier now. What are you going to do?” And then the other part of it is people, I think, were just genuinely excited to know what are you going to do? Like this will be cool. We've watched you for eight plus years doing this. This was so fun, what you got next? And that's where I think that vibe and that pressure was, came back and I took it on as pressure, like, “Oh no, I don't know if I can impress you anymore. Like, ah!”

HARVINDER WADHWA: So Krista, I'm making one assumption here that you must have been very passionate about rowing, and that's why you chose to be a rower.

KRISTA GULOIEN: I think I am a passionate person. I think when you're doing something that so plays to who you are. I was able to be like a nutty, passionate, crazy athlete. And then after, I talk about this in my book, to how I would like it when I was done rowing, I was still on that, in that zone of like constantly moving and trying to be first. Or, you know, I would be in the Starbucks line up and like the person making my Starbucks wasn’t doing it fast enough. Like, all of my energy is going into the wrong places and I was like running in a really charged state. And then when I shifted out, I didn't have the rowing outlet anymore, and now I'm living in that fight or flight state.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And so when you retired, were you chasing that same kind of passion? And yeah, how did that go? Was it like looking for something new to do?

KRISTA GULOIEN: It was interesting. I think initially I tried to detach from the world of sport. I thought, I'm going to branch out, I did a fashion merchandising program at Blanche McDonald, You know, the response to me in the world was weird, too, because I was coming at an entry level, and I would try to get a job in like retail, for example, and they wanted to know if I had retail experience.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh my god.

KRISTA GULOIEN: And to me, that was such a like, that was such a slap in the entry door face.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Oh my god.

KRISTA GULOIEN: Because I was like, I don't understand why I'm not qualified to fold shirts and clothes, like I was literally trying to build from nothing. So that was a little bit discouraging. I pushed on and I found a comfortable place at Lululemon. Eventually, I just kind of felt like that wasn't where I needed to be, either, though for the long term, I was really wiggly, like I wasn't settled. Why I wasn't settled because I didn't, maybe I didn't find my new place, or maybe my expectations were just way too freaking high.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So did you, because you came from a very, very high point. I mean, silver medal in Olympics is not a joke by any stretch of imagination.

KRISTA GULOIEN: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And then now you come in the real world and then you're on the street, when you are looking for a job, when you are trying to do anything, you expect, “You know, you guys. You know, I'm a silver medalist in the Olympics.” So I just want to understand a little bit how you felt and what were you expecting from people and how you felt when your expectations were not met. And I hope I'm not asking a rude question.

KRISTA GULOIEN: No, I think you're asking, you're asking a great question. And I expected a little bit more of a chance, maybe. And what I did see was every time I was given a chance, I think people were pretty impressed with my grit and ability to work and figure things out and take initiative.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right, of course.

KRISTA GULOIEN: Skip ahead. I decided I'm going to quit this job and I'm gonna write the book, the book about the transition, because that's what I was really in. I was deep in the transition and the struggle, and I was like, Oh, if I'm going through this, I feel like other athletes could benefit from hearing my story, and what happens to all of these athletes when they finish competing? I think I had a lot of support, a lot of my Olympic journey, and I appreciate that and I loved representing our country, but I didn't really feel supported after. I felt a little bit out of my own floundering.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

KRISTA GULOIEN: Yeah.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So once you’d written the book, what happened after that? What did you find yourself doing?

KRISTA GULOIEN: I was doing a lot of networking and going to different events and thinking about doing public speaking. And I felt uncomfortable, I felt insecure, I was struggling and then I randomly met, who's my husband now, I met him. Then it was quick. It was like we felt like we had this connection. It was like meant to be, all of a sudden we’re having babies. And I have two babies and two dogs and I, you know, I'm a stay at home mom and it's just like totally different world now. And I guess I found my next kind of compassion just in building a family.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

KRISTA GULOIEN: Not just, but you know what I mean, in building a family.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And now that it's been ten years and you have now you stated that now you have very much adjusted to your new life.

KRISTA GULOIEN: Sort of. Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Okay. And that was exactly what I was trying to get into. So what is this adjustment like? Just share a little bit with us.

KRISTA GULOIEN: Well, I mean, 10 years later and I'm still asking, “What am I going to do next?” So if we could just wrap this conversation up with, I got asked, I figured it out, and I know the answer that would have been sweet. But it's a part of life and I mean you guys probably don't know what's next either, necessarily.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yes.

KRISTA GULOIEN: And it's something that I've learned to accept. And I mean, right now, I guess the what's next for me is like, what will I do when I have more time and the kids go to school? And will I get back into the workforce? And what will that look like? Can I work from home? I just don't feel as much pressure in this current moment. But ask me tomorrow and I'm probably like, “What am I going to do!?” Highs and lows, highs and lows.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So going back to “What are you going to do now?” is this an inappropriate question?

KRISTA GULOIEN: I think the timing is really everything and the quirkiness in humanity that finds the worst timing to ask it. Because I don't really care, like right now, if someone asked me that it wouldn't bother me at all.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

KRISTA GULOIEN: But then, it was then that it really triggered this whole thing for me. They probably didn't even notice, you know, I probably answered the question in some random way. My story was probably changing often. I would just walk away and then struggle with it on my own. Maybe it is the world helping you make decisions.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: It’s the universe nudging you.

KRISTA GULOIEN: Maybe! Yeah.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: To refer back to our very first guests this episode, your children. Once you'd become a parent, did people ask you about what your next steps were going to be?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Oh yes, yes, yes. Immediately they asked me, “When am I having the next kid?”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So people just don't waste any time.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, parenthood could totally spark these questions about what's coming next in career for parents who are expecting, on parental leave, or stay at home parents. We actually had a listener write in to us about a question like this. This kind of helped inspire the episode. A bit of a different question, but this listener was frustrated about being asked, “When are you going back to work?”

HARVINDER WADHWA: So we get to talk to a fan of the show.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: This is Vania.

VANIA: I've been a stay at home mom for about four and a half years since my first child, and before that I was an educator and a therapist for kids and youth with special needs. So my husband and I made a decision for me to become a stay at home mom, having two kids back to back, it was just like really expensive to put into daycare. Maybe also like growing up in an environment where both my parents worked full time. You know, you see other friends going home and like their parents cooked them like something, like a snack. Yeah, that's like also another thing that was valuable that I missed out on and I wanted that for my kids.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So Vania, you told us you wrote to us because that very day, you got that question. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

VANIA: I think it just came about with a family member, not necessarily, as you know, interrogating. But when I heard that question, I just felt it was at that point that I realized that it was something that has bothered me for a while. “When are you going back to work?” there's like, there's an assumption that you should go back to work, you know what I mean? And that whatever you're doing right now is perhaps not “valuable” in society. It almost seems like everyone's expecting me to go back to paid work. You know, to me, what I'm doing now is just as valuable as when I worked a job that was paid. But I think a lot of people don't see it that way.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Well, I'm glad you wrote in to us. I love that we can be like the Ghostbusters for this kind of scenario, you know, like, who are you going to call? I know the exact people to talk to you about a question that's bugging me that maybe people should ask more tactfully.

VANIA: Yes. Yes, exactly.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So Vania, there is actually a very simple alternative to that. All you have to do is charge your husband for the kids, your kids, you’re teaching, file a tax return and you know we are all good.

VANIA: Right? No, he actually talked to me about this previously and he said he read an article that talked about stay at home parents and how much they do and that they should be paid like over $100 000. I'm like, “Well, bring it on!”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I love that.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So you meet someone, they ask you what you do, how does the conversation progress from there?

VANIA: I think used to say what I did before I became a stay at home mom. And then I felt totally inauthentic because I'm like, I love what I do. Why do I have to say something else other than what I do right now, even though it's not paid? And maybe it's not something that they want to hear. And I think that it's harder to spark conversation, especially when the people aren't parents. Like they don't know what is appropriate because like, is it something where you chose to be in this position or that you had to be in this position? For me, it was a choice, but not for everybody. So then it's almost kind of like we have to pick up from somewhere else.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Why do you think people have that expectation of you that, you know, you are going to go back to paid work and that that is more valuable, a better use for your time?

VANIA: That's a very good question. I think that part of it is that I'm quite highly educated. I have multiple degrees and I really love my work. And so there's an expectation that, oh, you know, you have all these skills and you have all this education. Like, we don't want you to go and “waste them.” I understand where they come from, but it's also sometimes it kind of like, irks me a little bit. Because to me, it's like, I feel like I'm using all those skills every day.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Makes sense.

HARVINDER WADHWA: But do you really think the society is judging you for not going to work or they are just curious as to why you're not going? And when I'm using the word going to work as in paid work.

VANIA: I think they are kind of curious. And there's maybe also it's, it has a negative intrusive connotation to it, especially for the ones that want to stay at home and stay at home long term. It makes them feel inferior. Like for me, I feel inferior when somebody asks me that, like what I'm doing, it shouldn't be a long term thing.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. I'm really interested in the whole societal trend behind this because, you know, not all that long ago, in the grand scheme of things, women were kind of expected to stay at home and expected not to work and to take care of the kids. Nowadays do you find that that is kind of flipped and you're expected to be working? Or else maybe, I don't know, it's kind of unfeminist in a way or something like that?

VANIA: I've seen kind of like both sides. So like, I have a couple of friends who kind of think a little bit like me and sometimes we laugh about it because we say, maybe we're born in the wrong decade, that we're supposed to be more like 50 years ago because we want to be stay at home moms! But I feel like there is an expectation for me in general from where, like, I guess where I come from. That with women getting more education, they have more opportunity in work. And it's kind of like there's more opportunity for you, like, why would you not want to participate in that? Like, you can participate in something so much greater that, you know, women 60 years, 70 years ago didn't even have a chance.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So there's a bit of what I was your age kind of vibe going on. Except also for people your age.

VANIA: Yup!

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Is there a way that you wish people would ask this question differently or in a more respectful way?

VANIA: Yeah. To just ask, like, “Oh, what do you enjoy about being a stay at home parent?” or like, you know, “How was your day?” And if you want to know a little bit more about why they wanted, decided to not work and be a stay at home mom, and that's totally fine, too. Just like asking them, like, “When are you going back to work?”, I think, is a little bit intrusive.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Something I want to unpack a bit more is what's underneath this question. What does work mean or represent to us? And how does that tie into our identities? To dig into this further, I'm speaking to Anne Wilson.

ANNE WILSON: I am a professor of social psychology. I'm at Wilfrid Laurier University, and I do work in self and identity over time at both an individual level and then how that plays out at a societal level.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: This question we're focusing on, “What are you going to do now?” why do you think people like to ask this? Why are people fascinated generally with someone's career next steps?

ANNE WILSON: Well, I think that this may be at least partly historically situated. So we talk about this kind of thing more now, perhaps, than we have at other stages in history.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

ANNE WILSON: And part of it seems to be that people's identity and their careers are so intertwined. “What do you do?” is really almost synonymous with “Who are you?” It conveys a sense of priority, right? This isn't something that's true across the board, so it's especially true in middle and upper classes and people who have certain types of careers. But there has been over the last couple of decades more and more of this emphasis on “Find your passion and make sure that the job that you have, the career that you have is the right one for you. There's this one thing out there for you.” Yeah.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Take me back to a time when this career identity link was less important. Like, how did this link you described come about historically?

ANNE WILSON: So I'll say this in broad terms because I'm not a historian.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Fair.

ANNE WILSON: So I don't have all of, I can't connect all the dots for you. But just the very notion of choosing a career is something that's relatively recent. So it used to be that people's life paths were relatively constrained. Your father was a carpenter, you'd become a carpenter. That would still be potentially part of your identity but identity didn't even really mean the same thing then.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

ANNE WILSON: So the idea of finding who you are and that there's some kind of a unitary individual self is something that's also a relatively recent invention. But that's also true, you know, I come from a more working-class background. I feel like I ended up in a career that I'd call also my passion or that I have a sense of purpose around it. But I don't fool myself about the notion that everybody ends up being able to pursue their passion. There are a lot of constraints on people even now. And so sometimes when we talk about career and identity, I always want to stop and remind myself that this is something that also is a bit of a luxury to be able to think about careers in that way. And that's not true for everybody even now.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. Yeah, for sure. So given that context, what impact can getting this question have?

ANNE WILSON: It's such a message in society generally, right? Find your passion. Find the one thing out there for you and that sort of thing. It can make a lot of people who are really just trying to navigate the reality of a very difficult kind of economy and job market and so on. It can make that process even harder for them. And it may make them feel like they have failed because they haven't managed to find that kind of a match and you know, and it may be that for a lot of people, their identity is just not going to come from work. And that they can find a job that is perfectly satisfying for them but they're going to get their real joy and their real sense of purpose in what they do outside of their work hours. And that's perfectly fine, too.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: It's such an interesting reality check to realize how recent and how class specific this can be, because, you know, growing up, I was always so fixated on this idea of career. From my earliest memories I was like, I'm going to be a firefighter and an astronaut and a marine biologist and an author. I'm just going to do everything. I was very, very into that idea of being an adult means you achieve all these career milestones.

ANNE WILSON: Yeah, for sure. And that happens right from high school or from earlier, so we ask kids, “What are you going to be when you grow up?”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

ANNE WILSON: I worry a little bit about the message that we send to kids that you have to somehow figure out that one needle in the haystack. And if you can get that silver bullet, if you can find that one thing, then you're going to be happy. And if not, then boy, you might be out of luck. These are kids and and even young adults that often haven't fully developed their identity, don't really know even what the options are that are out there, and they're being asked to plot this kind of path out for the rest of their lives. It may very well be that the things that they are passionate about at that moment are not really going to help them to predict what they're going to want to be doing five years down the road.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, that makes sense to me. Looking down the road in life. Does this pressure to have your career figure it out, continue through, say, middle age or older? Are there the similar pressures or does that evolve somewhat?

ANNE WILSON: That's a really interesting question. So people's identities tend to get more solidified as they get older, so they have more clarity and coherence about who they are. And if that identity becomes pretty wrapped up in their careers, then things like career changes or even retirement may really throw people for quite a loop because it's not just changing a job or, you know, moving to another stage of life, but it's also potentially an identity crisis wrapped up with that. So one term that's used for that, especially when it's in this more unhealthy way, the boundaries are really too blurred has been called enmeshment. So the idea that we've just kind of lost the boundaries between ourselves and our jobs. So I'm going to make an analogy with relationships. If we're in a relationship and our identities are really overlapped, if a lot of our identity comes from our relationship, we may hesitate to leave that relationship or we may do whatever we can to avoid that relationship ending because it's not just a threat of sadness and the sorts of things that are related to a relationship ending. But it's also a real you know “Who am I going to be?” In some cases, that may end up making us stay in relationships that aren't great for us or in jobs that are great for us. Right. And it might make us less likely to take the leap to try to explore something new.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: That's scary. But it also makes so much sense.

ANNE WILSON: Yeah.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Do you think, in your view, should we still use the question, “What are you going to do now?” or something similar in our small talk environments? Is this a good question to ask someone at a party or when you're getting to know them?

ANNE WILSON: It might be that it would be better to ask a question about, you know, what's important to you, what defines you? You know, you could reframe an answer to that kind of question by directing people to what it is that you want to talk about. So here are some of the things I learned about the last stage of my life, and here's how I hope to use those kinds of things in the next stage. And it might look really different. It might be that what I learned is what I don't want to do or that you know, that I'm really resilient or that I'm really, you know, great with people or whatever it is that matters that really came to the surface for you. And let the talk of careers and jobs come in as a secondary piece to that, rather than the piece that we push as the first thing that we want to know about somebody.

[Music]

JAIER VLESSING: My name is Jaier Vlessing. I'm 62, I live in Vancouver and I've been working for the last 23 years in a steakhouse. I get asked the question quite a bit, and now especially since I made the decision that I would retire next May. And people would constantly say, “Well, what are you going to do?” A lot of people are telling me stories of people they knew, family members, brothers, sisters who retired and how wonderful it was and how it didn't always work out so well. Dead in two years! People are concerned that, you know, do I have a plan? They want me to make sure that I'm making the right decision because, you know, it's not the right decision for many people. It's kind of when people ask me, I try and give them the best answer I can and try and be as confident. I say that, you know, I'm not 100 percent sure what I'm going to do. I'm just going to wake up in the morning and start doing it. And the most important thing for me, what I want to do is I want to wake up and not have work on my mind. It's about freeing my mind and taking care of me. Now that I have actually have a challenge, you know, to reinvent myself and to become productive in a different way and live life to its fullest. And I just have this confidence, not 100 percent, but this confidence that I'm going to be able to figure out what to do and I'm going to enjoy it.

[Music]

HARVINDER WADHWA: So Elena, this episode made me realize that this question is not asked just once. You keep have to answer this question at different stages of your life, right from when you're in school and when you are retiring.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, cradle to grave, baby! Yeah, I found it really comforting to hear people at different life stages reflecting on this question. I think I've had this fantasy of, you know, you get settled in your life and then nothing's uncertain and, you know, all your next steps. But that's not true. Uncertainty reigns. So it was comforting to hear that other people feel that.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And and that brings me to a question which I will ask you.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Uh huh?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Now that we are finishing the season, what are you going to do now?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh, I should’ve seen that coming. Should’ve known you're going to turn it on me! I am still asking myself that, but at least in the short term, you know, sleep, watch hockey, go on Hinge. I don't know. What about you?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Well, watch cricket. No, Hinge. I don't even know what Hinge is, but I'm assuming I shouldn't be knowing it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Well, I really just want to thank everyone who stuck with us this whole season or even, you know, if you just popped in and out. I really appreciate and I know everyone else who works on this show really appreciates all the time you spend with us, and I hope you've learned some things along the way.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So hold your horses, Elena. We have one more episode, which is the bonus episode coming up, and that is to reflect on the season and also answer listener questions.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, looking forward to hearing your thoughts and looking back on a year of inappropriateness.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yes. All right, see you.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Goodbye for now.

[Theme]

ARVINDER WADHWA: I'm Harvinder Wadhwa.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And I'm Elena Hudgins Lyle.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Thanks for getting inappropriate for us.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: A huge thanks to our guests Rymn and Harbani Wadhwa, Krista Guloien, Vania, and Anne Wilson. You also heard a voicenote from Jaier Vlessing.

HARVINDER WADHWA: For a full transcript of this episode, make sure to visit cbc.ca/iqpodcast.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: The powerhouse producers behind this podcast are Sabrina Bertsch, Cindy Long and myself. This episode was mixed by Olivia Pasquarelli. Our chase producer is Sarah Melton and our digital producer is SK Robert. Our senior producer is Geoff Turner and our executive producer is Arif Noorani.

[Theme out]

HARVINDER WADHWA: An inappropriate question is like bringing your kids to “take your kids to workday” twice.

Transcript: Inappropriate Questions Season 3, Episode 15

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