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[Music]

VOICE 1: Hey, how are you?

VOICE 2: Hope you’re well...as can be expected!

VOICE 3: Well it’s been quite the week, right?

VOICE 4: I hope your family is in good health.

VOICE 2: I write to you in what can only be described as an unusually difficult time.

VOICE 3: I hope this email finds you well and safe from COVID-19.

VOICE 1: Sorry for the delay, I’ve had my kids with me every moment since March.

VOICE 4: Hi there, hope you’re not dead.

VOICE 2: I hope you’ve been staying positive and testing negative.

VOICE 1: I hope you are staying safe, sheltered in place, stocked with toilet paper, and healthy during these absolutely unprecedented, wild, chaotic, terrifying times. Just wanted to follow up—

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Harv, usually these days when I write an email I start it with “hope you’re well, insert COVID caveats here,” or” hope you’re well as can be given the circumstances.” What about you?

HARVINDER WADHWA: I would say something like “Make sure you wash your hands, but also don't forget to bathe.”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh, all right, Dad.

HARVINDER WADHWA: That was not a dad joke. That was not a dad joke.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: OK! I find it really hard to check in with people these days in a way that fits the moment. Like should I ask people “How are you?” or is that opening a can of worms and making people uncomfortable? We've covered this question before actually, in an episode all about grief.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And if you have not heard that episode, then you are not a true fan.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh, OK. Go off. Go off. We recorded that episode actually right before the pandemic and I mean right before, down to the wire. And since then so much has changed that makes the question “How are you?” hit differently a lot of the time. So we thought it would be interesting to cover this question in the context of the pandemic.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So Elena, what do you think about this question?

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: These days, I think it makes checking in with people trickier, even now that it's been over a year. I'm really unfiltered. You might know this about me. I'm pretty, you know, heart on my sleeve. So when people ask this, I'm very likely to tell the truth and the whole truth, even if it's not pretty. I've had some calls with my friends sometimes where someone will say, “How are you?” And then I do this long rant about all the frustrating or sad things in my life and then like 20 minutes later, I'm still talking. And then I feel so bad and so sorry. And I ask my friend the same question and they will say, “oh, I'm all right. You know, I made some banana bread. You know, I tie-dyed some shirts, you know.” And I feel very guilty. And I wonder whether “How are you?” was an invitation to give my full answer or that they just wanted to hear, “you know, I'm OK, I'm fine. I'm hanging in there.”

HARVINDER WADHWA: And Elena just because of people like you, I don't even ask this question anymore.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Oh, wow. OK, there we go. I am the problem with this question and Harv and I will now try to reconcile our differences over the course of this episode.

HARVINDER WADHWA: That was a joke, that because of people like you. But things have definitely changed. I think now there are more people who are answering the question more honestly and more people who are also asking that question more honestly than a small talk. But so much time has gone. Now this is the new normal. So I have pretty much stopped asking this question from the pandemic point of view. I'm asking this question exactly the way I was asking pre-pandemic. I am not expecting an honest response, I am just expecting could be better, could be worse, not too bad. That's it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Do you show up with like a piece of paper and some checkboxes that have those three stock answers?

HARVINDER WADHWA: No we are still social distancing, otherwise I would do it.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yes. Oh true. True. You send out a Google form, my bad.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I'm really interested to see the role of this question, whether there’s a better way to check in with people right now, and generally how the pandemic has changed the way we greet each other. And who better to ask about language than a linguist? We’re speaking to Deborah Tannen, who is a professor of linguistics at Georgetown University. In the past year, she's written and been featured in many articles all about how the pandemic has changed how we check in and how we make small talk.

DEBORAH TANNEN: Normal greetings are, you kind of assume that nothing terrible is wrong and you just kind of, it's automatic.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah.

DEBORAH TANNEN: In the pandemic, you kind of assume something is wrong because something is wrong for everybody all the time.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

DEBORAH TANNE: So it's a little bit like I think in a non-pandemic situation, if you're talking to a friend who you know has been very sick or a friend who, you know, has suffered a great loss and you say, “How are you?” it carries more weight. It's like, I know you're not great, but given the circumstances, how are you doing?

In fact, it's kind of embarrassing if you say “Hi, how are you?” and then they say, “well, actually I'm dealing with this. I don't know if you know this, but my spouse died,” you know, and then you and you're horrified. You're horrified that you said this cheery "How are you?" So in a way that has kind of taken over for all greetings between all people.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Lately we have seen a lot of new greetings. Why do you think that is?

DEBORAH TANNEN: You know, that's an interesting thing about Americans in particular. I've actually written a little bit about this. There are many cultures where you have set things to say in certain situations and everybody appreciates the set things to say. It’s kind of comforting, you know, what you’re supposed to say in each situation. Americans tend to be uncomfortable with anything set and formulaic. They want to find something original to say. You should not say a cliche.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

DEBORAH TANNEN: And I think that's making it harder for us in this situation. Everybody kind of feels like we need to come up with something original. In fact, what Americans often end up saying is there's nothing to say at a time like this.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I mean, it really does feel like there's nothing to say at a time like this sometimes because like you said, this kind of crisis is affecting everyone in one way or another and it's like, how much can I really offer in a few quick words?

DEBORAH TANNEN: I often start emails now "I hope you're managing OK." "I hope you're doing as well as can be expected," “I hope you're...” or somebody once said "I hope you're doing well and if like me you're not, that's OK, too."

HARVINDER WADHWA: Mine is a little different. I say “If you're happy and you know it, then keep it to yourself.”

DEBORAH TANNEN: That's good. I like that. I like that.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Prior to this, “How are you?” was at best an inconsequential question and at worst that somebody who had some kind of a trauma in his or her life, it had a different meaning altogether. But then with this pandemic, if somebody asks, would that be considered an inappropriate question?

DEBORAH TANNEN: I wouldn't say inappropriate. I would say that people are using it less. It's kind of interesting. Every culture has things you say as a greeting that are not meant literally. In the Philippines, for example, a greeting would be “Where are you going?” And the answer is “Over there.” In Burma and Cambodia, a greeting is, “Have you eaten yet?” And the answer is “Yes, I've eaten rice.” So I don't know that those would change a whole lot in the pandemic. But it just so happens that the one that we tend to say is “How are you?”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

DEBORAH TANNEN: Which is taking on extra meaning in a situation where you have reason to think people may not be fine.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

DEBORAH TANNEN: So I wouldn't say that it's wrong or that anybody's offended. But I do notice that people are using it less because they're aware that something may not be fine. So they just find another way to say it.

HARVINDER WADHWA: When I am using “How are you?” and that is why I asked that question when I'm using “How are you?” Now this has a little bit of I'm emphasizing each word because I am asking more than what it used to be as a greeting. So I'm enunciating each syllable a little more.

DEBORAH TANNEN: That's great. That's such a good point. Always the way you say it, what you emphasize, where you pause, your intonation pattern, that was always going to change it. Pandemic or no pandemic, “How are you?” is going to be different than “Hi, how are you?”

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: And now I'm also, when somebody responds to that, I'm listening. Prior to that, I was not even listening. That person could have said “I died yesterday” and I would not have noticed that.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And so you’ve become a more compassionate person over this pandemic is what you're telling me, Harv.

DEBORAH TANNEN: You know how you say it also says something about how you feel and you're reminding me now, I could always tell what mood my mother was in, by the way she answered the phone. If she was in a good mood, she'd say, “Hi, honey, how are you?” and if she answered the phone and said, “Hi, how are you?” I knew she was unhappy. I don't think she planned it as a way to communicate to me how she felt. But it does, it did communicate to me. So then I would have to say, what's wrong.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Now that we are now that we don't say “How are you?” as much, when people do ask this question is it asking for a more honest answer or has it become more of a you know, are we more ready? You know, if I say “How are you?” these days does that mean I'm actually inviting someone to tell me the full hog story of how they are?

DEBORAH TANNEN: I think now as always, people have different ideas about how much they want to hear and how much they want to tell.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Fair.

DEBORAH TANNEN: And I don't think there's any way to guarantee that the amount you want to hear and the amount the person who's talking to you wants to tell and vice versa is going to be the same. There's less expectation that everything's probably fine if you don't say something. Everybody knows that nothing is fine right now. It's almost like an open invitation to tell me as much as you want and hope that whatever you decide to tell me is not more than I want to hear.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right, right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: We have to take a short break but we’ll be right back.

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And we’re back with Deborah Tannen. Going back to both the “How are you? Fine” and “Have you eaten yet? I've eaten rice” or “Where are you going? I'm going over there.” Why do these kind of questions with expected answers exist in languages like what kind of role do they, what purpose do they serve?

DEBORAH TANNEN: I love that question. There are certain human interactions, human transactions that are so common and so predictable and so universal that you have to have automatic ways to deal with them. You just can't think of something new to say every time you run into somebody and you're going to run into somebody so many times in your life.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. So right.

DEBORAH TANNEN: So these ritualized, routineized expressions, it's leave takings, greetings and leave takings are huge.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

DEBORAH TANNEN: And then good night and good morning—

HARVINDER WADHWA: I mean, it would be too abrupt if you need to get some work done and just go to that person, say do this work as opposed to having an ice breaker or something.

DEBORAH TANNEN: Yes, yes, yes.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right, yeah.

DEBORAH TANNEN: You know, it's funny. Kids, I think, reach a certain age, maybe teenagers where they suddenly start thinking it's hypocritical, you don't mean it, why are you saying all these things you don't mean? And then they get a little bit older and they realize you're saying what you mean. What you're saying is “I'm acknowledging you as a person, you're acknowledging me as a person.” It's almost like a reinforcement of our being human, being caring about each other, living in the same culture. I think it communicates so much that you share these automatic ways to acknowledge these really key human moments.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: So it's about recognizing the other person as human and some shared commonalities between you without having to think too hard every single time?

DEBORAH TANNEN: Yes.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Be American and come up with something original?

DEBORAH TANNEN: Yes. Yes. That's a great way to put it. I do think so.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Cool.

HARVINDER WADHWA: In our culture, the small talk is that each person will ask the other person “And what's more, what's more?” And they keep going in circles asking “What's more?” the other person will say the same thing, “What's more?” And then you just keep repeating it.

DEBORAH TANNEN: So “what's more,” it's kind of like what we would say “what else?”

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yeah, yeah, what else is new. Kind of. Yeah.

DEBORAH TANNEN: And what culture is that?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Punjabi.

DEBORAH TANNEN: Yeah, it's fascinating. You know, when I lived in Greece, I would hear women, women in particular greeting and they would say, I'll translate it. “How are you? Are you well? Well you are? Well, you are? Are you well?” And then we go back and forth like that “Kalá? Kalá eísai? Kalá?” And it struck me as so funny, but when I got used to it, it just seemed warm and caring and it's just ways of showing you appreciate the person, you're interested in them. Then, you know, I often talk about message and meta message. The message is the meaning of the words. The meta message is what it says about the relationship that you're saying these words in this way, in this context.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Interesting.

DEBORAH TANNEN: So, you have the meaning of that small talk may be insignificant, but the meta message is very significant. I care about you. You know, we share assumptions about the kind of thing we should say. It's kind of like you're a right sort of person and, you know, God's in his heaven and all's right with the world.

HARVINDER WADHWA: So now going to the flip side of as an appropriate question, because now somebody who experienced or somebody whose family member experienced COVID necessarily didn't have the tragedy, but they experienced that. And in those circumstances, when you are aware of that, then what would be a good greeting for such a person?

DEBORAH TANNEN: Any phrasing that acknowledges. So some of the greetings I mentioned that I have heard, you know, “I hope you're hanging in there. How are you managing in this crazy time?” For a while there, I was saying in this beyond crazy time, but it's gone beyond beyond. So I don't even bother saying that anymore.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. Yeah.

DEBORAH TANNEN: So I think acknowledging that, you know, things are going on that may not be great.

HARVINDER WADHWA: We briefly touched upon that, that there's one thing about the greetings, but also when you are leaving the conversation. It has become significantly different, like, you know, stay safe or stay healthy or whatever. Normally, in normal parlance, we never use the word, oh, stay healthy. We just say bye.

DEBORAH TANNEN: Yes, yes.

HARVINDER WADHWA: The one I love the most is “I'll let you go.”

DEBORAH TANNEN: I'll let you go, which means I need to go.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Exactly.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah, absolutely.

DEBORAH TANNEN: I like that one. You know, there always was, take care was a common one.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Take care, yes.

DEBORAH TANNEN: But at there too, I think take care has taken on more meaning. It's not as automatic as it was before. It's not as empty as the words would have been before. There's much more of a closing that seems to really be stay safe, take care of yourself, stay six feet apart.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah!

DEBORAH TANNEN: That's why wash hands was so good.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Down the line, do you think all these new greetings and different variations of “how are you?” going to last or will we go back to saying “How are you? I’m fine.”

DEBORAH TANNEN: Well, my guess is we're going to go back to it,

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

DEBORAH TANNEN: Expressions come in vogue and they have a life of their own. The first time you hear it you think, what is that? And then next thing you know, you hear it every place. And then the next thing you know, you use it, which really catches you off guard and then a couple different lengths of time that they become a standard. And then and then they get replaced by something else. But don't hold me to it because who knows?

[Music]

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: For the time being Harv, are you going to keep using the question “How are you?” to check in?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Yes, absolutely. And with that extra meaning, because we still are not out of the woods.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: I liked what you said about tone talking to Deborah, because I think this question kind of can be whatever you make of it. You can use your tone and the context to imply that you're ready for a more honest answer or to just make small talk with someone and leave it there. It makes me feel a bit better, maybe in the right context, I am able to share my honest truth with someone without overwhelming them.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Absolutely. Absolutely.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Do you think the way you greet people is going to change after the pandemic?

HARVINDER WADHWA: Most definitely.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Yeah?

HARVINDER WADHWA: At least when I say change in the sense that that subtle change which we experienced during pandemic, that change will go away and we'll be back to what I'll call it, “normal.”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right.

HARVINDER WADHWA: It's just a greeting. It has no deeper meaning.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Right. OK. You'll have your three checkbox answers waiting and ready to go.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Checkboxes coming back!

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Heartless Harv is coming back after the pandemic friends. All right Harv, signing off pandemic style. See you post vaccine!

HARVINDER WADHWA: Quarantined regards.

[Music]

VOICE 1: Take care! No, but really.

VOICE 3: Yours from afar.

VOICE 2: Cautious cheers.

VOICE 4: Best (but could be better).

VOICE 3: Socially distant.

VOICE 2: Sent from my living room.

VOICE 4: Forever screaming into the dark void that is life now.

VOICE 1: Handwashingly, yours.

[Theme]

HARVINDER WADHWA: I'm Harvinder Wadhwa.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: And I'm Elena Hudgins Lyle.

HARVINDER WADHWA: Thanks for getting inappropriate for us.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Many thanks to our guest this episode, Deborah Tannen. You also heard some of our favourite CBC hosts sharing those pandemic email greetings: Matt Galloway, Piya Chattopadhyay, Faith Fundal, and Elamine Abdul Mahmood, thank you. You’re all the best!

HARVINDER WADHWA: Every episode has an accompanying webcomic and this week it was illustrated by Tish Valenzuela. You can find it on Instagram @IQ_podcast. Also, make sure to visit cbc.ca/iqpodcast for a full transcript of this episode.

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: The phenomenal friends behind this podcast are Sabrina Bertsch, Cindy Long and myself. The show is mixed by Andrew Norton. Sarah Melton is our chase producer and our digital producer is Judy Ziyi Gu. Our senior producer is Geoff Turner and our executive producer is Arif Noorani.

[Theme out]

HARVINDER WADHWA: An inappropriate question is like asking Elena “How are you?”

ELENA HUDGINS LYLE: Ugh, thanks for asking. Pretty tired, mostly. Also, I'm pretty hungry. I have so many people I need to text back and I feel like I'm just letting all my friends down and my family down. And, you know, I'm excited for the hockey game...

Transcript: Inappropriate Questions - Season 3, Episode 3

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