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The AIH transcript for June 9, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Leaping to our own defence. The Prime Minister announces a huge boost to military spending -- to the relief of a former Canadian Army commander who says that, in an unstable world, that investment is long overdue.

CH: Recipe for disaster. An Australian woman is accused of killing her inlaws by serving them Beef Wellington with poisonous mushrooms -- and her trial has become a national obsession.

NK: Protection racket. While our guest was photographing protests in Los Angeles, he was shot in the leg with a rubber bullet. He tells us the President's decision to send in the National Guard has only made Angelenos less safe.

CH: Keeping their heads above waddlers. In an annual tradition, staff at a Winnipeg high school all become guidance counsellors -- and what they're guiding is a family of ducks.

NK: A triumph of modern Triumph. A Canadian classic rock banger has become a staple of this year's Stanley Cup playoffs; we'll get Rik Emmett from Triumph on the line to lay his feelings about Lay It On The Line on the line. [chuckle]

CH: And...tempest in a bunch of teacups. When a group of young Black men posted a video in which they tried matcha for the first time, it got a lot of love -- and a lot of noisy haters. But their videos, and their joy, are proving infectious.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that celebrates a matcha made in heaven.

[theme]

Part 1: Canadian Defence Spending, L.A. National Guard, Triumph Playoff Music

Canadian Defence Spending

Guest: Andrew Leslie

CH: A reversal of fortune will mean an injection of a fortune. Prime Minister Mark Carney is promising a major boost to Canada's defence budget. Today, he pledged to meet NATO's spending target -- two per cent of GDP -- by the end of March. That announcement comes in advance of a NATO meeting at which members are expected to be asked to spend even more. But Prime Minister Carney said he was speeding up defence spending because the era of American dominance is now over -- and Canada needs to look out for its own interests.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: Our fundamental goal in all of this is to protect Canadians, not to satisfy NATO accountants.

CH: Lieutenant-General Andrew Leslie is the former commander of the Canadian Army. He's also a former Liberal MP and cabinet member. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Lieutenant-General Leslie, is this pledge enough to do what the prime minister is promising -- to protect Canadians?

ANDREW LESLIE: An incredibly good first step. And quite frankly, I've been waiting about 15 years to hear a prime minister lay down threats to Canada, and what his government intends to do about it. So, full marks to him.

NK: NATO, there's a meeting set for a few weeks from now. Is this pledge of two per cent, and we know it might go up to five, 3.5 Per cent on basic military capabilities, another 1.5 per cent of GDP on defence and security related investments, infrastructure included, just to lay it out for our listeners. But this initial pledge of two per cent, long called for, will it satisfy Canada's allies?

AL: It will certainly go a long way to reassuring them that we're not the defence laggard we were yesterday. And is it enough to defend Canada in isolation? No, which is why we need friends and allies. In an ever increasingly dangerous world, it's best not to be alone.

NK: I've had a lot of conversations on this program over the last few years about just trying to get to this two per cent, and the hiccups and the holdups. Why do you think it took so long as you were pushing and waiting for all of those years?

AL: Well, I think a variety of people have tried to use the defence procurement process, which is owned by the government 100 per cent, as a delay. It's not. This flows from the authority and the guidance given by one person, and that's the prime minister of Canada. When the prime minister of the Canada doesn't care about his armed forces that much, when he doesn't perceive there to be a threat, the system will take as long as it possibly can. If, on the other hand, you have a prime minister who recognizes the threat, who has the maturity to actually discern between competing choices, and never forgetting that his principal responsibility to Canadians is to ensure their defence and security, he's going to invest in a dangerous world. And here we are.

NK: We have a little more to listen to from Prime Minister Carney, and in this clip he's speaking about the geopolitical realities, the changes that he says is necessitating this spending now.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: Rising great powers are now in strategic competition with America. A new imperialism threatens. Middle powers must compete for interests and attention, knowing that if they're not at the table, they're on the menu.

NK: [AL chuckles] It's a good bit of speech writing, certainly, Lieutenant-General Leslie, but, honestly it is, but do you believe that Canada is at risk of being on the menu?

AL: We are. As a matter of fact, as we speak, there are Russian and Chinese vessels, mostly exploratory, in waters that we consider ours. China and Russia do not recognize a significant portion of the land which we know is ours, and most of that is under the Arctic ice, or actually adjacent in our waters. We have untold wealth in our north. We're a rich and prosperous nation, and we've allied ourselves with those who respect the rule of law. Meanwhile, you have a huge new power centre, Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, and the list of villains goes on, who are not the least bit shy of using force to acquire extra land, as we've seen with Russia's savage attack into Ukraine, which shows no indication of stopping.

NK: I hear what you're saying about other countries, but I wonder if this would be happening with this much force and speed if the U.S. president wasn't doing and saying the things he's been doing and saying?

AL: I agree with your premise. I think that the U.S. president, through his chaotic unpredictability, has lost the confidence and measure of a large part of his allies. I think his musings about the future of Canada have certainly not endured a lot of Canadians. And I guess it points to the fact that we've always relied on the U.S. there to defend us. They can no longer guarantee that. More importantly, neither can we, which is why I think Prime Minister Carney's done exactly the right thing.

NK: How long might it take for this kind of investment, this money, Lieutenant-General, to actually have an impact, even if procurement speeds up because of what the prime minister is saying and doing?

AL: I think the pay raise, and there's a bunch of relatively uncomplicated major pieces of equipment you could acquire, that's mainly for the army, tanks, long range precision rocket systems, air defense capabilities, both short, medium, long, new armored vehicles, new supply vehicles, invest in quarters in which our troops can live without having to worry about black mould or lack of water. The longer stuff will probably be mainly in the domain of the big warships that we need, the supply ships, additional aircraft, and the higher end of the technology scale. But right away, we should be investing heavily in such items as drones. And it's a way of me saying that the $9 billion additional for this year will be well spent. I suspect people will be able to spend it this year. But it'll probably take another 10 or 12 years to get everything that we think we need to have a reasonable chance of essentially re-establishing ourselves as a respected middle power in terms of defence capability.

NK: Are we at risk in that time frame though, until that?

AL: We are. We are at risk. We're at risk right now, and there is the consequences to dithering. And unfortunately, that's what's happened for the last while. Water under the bridge. So, I applaud Prime Minister Carney's focus on getting stuff done right now, and essentially moving forward the previous prime minister's way in the future data when we get to two per cent.

NK: Lieutenant-General, I appreciate this.

AL: My pleasure as always. Thank you.

CH: Lieutenant-General Andrew Leslie is the former commander of the Canadian Army and a former Liberal Whip. He's in Ottawa.

[hip-hop]

L.A. National Guard

Guest: Nick Stern

CH: Donald Trump is doubling down on his decision to send the National Guard to Los Angeles, and is now adding 700 Marines into the mix. The president first deployed the military force over the weekend, in response to protests against Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, raids in the city -- and despite the explicit opposition of California Governor Gavin Newsom.

SOUNDCLIP

GAVIN NEWSOM: Donald Trump has created the conditions you see on your TV tonight. He's exacerbated the conditions. He's lit the Burberry Hill match. He's putting fuel on this fire, ever since he announced he was taking over the National Guard in an illegal act, immoral act, an unconstitutional act, and we're going to test that theory with a lawsuit tomorrow.

CH: That's Gavin Newsom on MSNBC last night. And today, the California governor made good on his threat of a lawsuit. But members of the National Guard are still on the streets of L.A. -- for the first time since 1992. Nick Stern is still in hospital. He's a British photographer and street artist known as "Plastic Jesus." He was out covering the protests on Saturday when he was shot in the leg with a rubber bullet. We reached him earlier today in Long Beach.

NK: Nick, how are you doing right now?

NICK STERN: Um, I'm okay. I've got quite a bit of pain from my leg. I'm on IV antibiotics. I also have a drain with a vacuum pump on the wound from the surgery because they couldn't close it up. It's a five centimetre hole.

NK: Oh my!

NS: Which is leaking fluid into a vacuum.

NK: How is your family dealing with all of this?

NS: Well, the bizarre thing is, you know, I go out on these kind of things frequently. But for some reason, on Saturday, my wife was incredibly concerned. She said that she had this inkling that something bad was going to happen. And my son actually sent me a message to say that Mum's crying because she's worried about you. That was before anything happened.

NK: How old is your son?

NS: My son's 18.

NK: On Friday, when things did start escalating, when did you realize that something unusual was happening?

NS: On Friday, I was actually at the Metropolitan Detention Center for the protest there, and there's certainly a lot of pepper spray, pepper balls being used. I got a face full of gas a couple of times. But on the Saturday, we heard about the ICE raid at Home Depot down at Paramount, but figured it would probably all be over by the time we got there. But as we were watching social media and a few kind of alert channels, it was clearly that the process was actually growing through the day. So, I went down there quite late in the afternoon around 3 o'clock.

NK: And for those who don't live there, don't know Paramount, the suburb of L.A., and that particular Home Depot where a lot of this was unfolding, what do you know about why ICE was heading there? Why was it a target?

NS: Paramount is a very, it's a community of Hispanic and Latino people, generally, a very close-knit community, and home depots all around the Los Angeles area have a lot of people outside in the mornings. You can call them day labour, and if you want some people, whether it's to do yard work, or build a wall for you, or clear some garbage away, you go down there and you just pick up a guy or two for that day -- day labour. Most of these guys are obviously Hispanic. They have varying degrees of documentation and status, so I think that's why they're targeting these places. They're easy, easy picks, I think.

NK: And what happened to you on Saturday, the moment you were injured?

NS: Yeah, I was down there from around three o'clock, and there was scuffles going backwards and forwards with the sheriff's, with people trying things like bottles of water and some kind of household small domestic fireworks were fired in their direction. Um, and the sheriff's department deputies were firing back things like flash bangs, you know, explosive devices, rubber bullets, and so on. And this was going back and forth all day. Um, when I actually got hit, I was photographing a group of people who were doing nothing more than waving Mexican flags. I was behind them. The flags were illuminated by the luxurious vehicles in front. It made quite a good picture. And then I got this incredible pain in my right thigh. I couldn't walk, I called out, I've been hit, I've been hit, and it was incredible the response. There were some protesters there that quickly ran over to me and literally picked me up and swept me away onto the footpath. A medic came over immediately, used scissors to cut off my pants, and started applying first aid. At some point during the first aid treatment, I actually passed out, which was pretty scary once I came to and I realized what had happened. They got me in a vehicle, bundled me into a vehicle, rushed me off to my car, where I met my reporter who took me to the emergency room. Once there, they did X-rays and CT scans and they realized there was an object embedded in my leg that needed to be removed.

NK: Do you have a sense of where that rubber bullet came from?

NS: No, it obviously came from a member, a deputy of Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. Unfortunately, you know, these guys all wear the same uniform. They don't have identity on them. They don't have any numbers, which is a point of dispute with people in L.A. Anyway. It was nighttime. It was dark. So, L.A. Sheriff's Department, that's all I can say.

NK: What is your sense, as you've seen things unfolding, about the kind of impact the deployment of the National Guard has had?

NS: My opinion, personally, I think things are going to get a lot worse. I think we are just days away from military or police law enforcement firing live rounds, initially, over the heads of people. And then, I think it's going to go down from there. And obviously, it's pretty obvious what I'm saying: that people will get shot.

NK: It's remarkable what you're saying, and the place that you're worried about. We heard what California's governor said about the deployment and Donald Trump's role in it, but he also spoke about the vandalism that we've seen from protesters. We'll play a little bit of that now.

SOUNDCLIP

GAVIN NEWSOM: These images are unacceptable. These kids on the car, uh, the folks that are taking advantage of this. These aren't peaceful protesters a lot of these folks, a lot a great people out there doing the right thing. But you get these insurgent groups coming in, these sort of these anarchists that are in there to create real problems. And they're just playing right into Donald Trump's hands. And they need to be called out. They need to the arrested. It is wrong to destroy other people's property, and it is wrong to create the conditions that only exacerbate this. But Donald Trump, at the end of the day, is the sponsor of these conditions.

NK: So, Newsom is very clear repeatedly about who he thinks is to blame overall. But in terms of the other kinds of incidents he's talking about, what do you think could and should be done to deal with that?

NS: Well, obviously, to some extent, Gavin Newsom is right, but he's also missed the point that without the actions of the law enforcement, none of this vandalism, none of this looting would be happening. This is an angry action to these military forces that are on the street. We've already seen in the past four months that there appears to be no, very little legal recourse against the executive orders and actions of this government. What other means do people have to try and change policy other than sadly resulting to this kind of street violence?

NK: You are, by virtue of what you do as a photographer, an observer, but you're also from another place. You're not from Los Angeles originally, you're not from the United States, so are you worried at all about your family's there, you've built a life there, but given how things have been escalating, you are speaking out, I mean, it's also a strange thing to say. You're, I think, from the U.K., can you imagine that you might be deported?

NS: It sounds a strange thing to say, and I would not have considered saying that six, seven, eight months ago, but I am an immigrant. Uh, I'm a U.S. citizen. My wife is an immigrant; she's Persian-American. And yes, we are both worried, but what can we do? We have to fight this for a better country as best we can without worrying too much about that, that possibility.

NK: Nick, I thank you for this. Please take care.

NS: Thank you.

CH: Nick Stern is a British photographer and street artist. We reached him in Long Beach, California.

[sombre ambient]

SOD: Cow Wedding

CH: Weddings -- the best ones, anyway -- usually make a racket. All the music, the dancing, the cheering: it's just a wonderful, noisy celebration of love.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: May your love be like a never-ending salt lick, enduring, comforting, full of life, and saltiness, and keeping everything interesting.

CH: [NK chuckles] Yeah, it’s like that. You know, if the bride and groom are a Highland cow and a Highland bull -- in this case, Muriel and Rhett. Cheryl Haskett was the officiant attempting to keep the ceremony under control last Friday, at Udderly Ridiculous farm in Ontario. In attendance were cows, chicken, goats, a llama, and 32 human guests, who had paid $95 each to be there. Ms. Haskett is the co-founder of the farm. She told the CBC about how this blessed union came about.

SOUNDCLIP

CHERYL HASKETT: It's been fun because this whole idea came over many, many months. We were doing experiences with our Highlands, and telling the story of Muriel and Rhett. And the fact that Rhett was the future boyfriend for Muriel. And we had hand-selected him for his handsomeness. And oftentimes, our guests would say, oh my gosh, you should have a wedding for them. And after having so many people say it, we thought, you know, we really should have a wedding, for them, that would be a lot of fun. So, we started the planning process. We invited sort of the first guests that had been here multiple times to the farm. So, we're so excited for the two of them, and wanted to be here to celebrate.

CH: Cheryl Haskett, talking to CBC reporter Hannah Kavanagh. That was our Sound Of the Day.

[Lay it on the Line by Triumph/classic rock]

Triumph Playoffs

Guest: Rik Emmett

CH: If you're air-guitaring and flashing back to a dorm room circa 1979 where you knocked over the lava lamp -- I don't blame you. But I have to tell you: you're living in the past, man.

Because Lay it on the Line by Triumph is also the song of 2025 -- at least for Edmonton Oilers fans. The song was used in a TV ad to celebrate the five Canadian teams to make the post-season. And it's since become an Oilers anthem. Unmissable during games, and a backing track to countless Oilers' fan TikToks. Triumph even reunited on Friday to play before the second game of the Stanley Cup Finals in Edmonton. Rik Emmett is Triumph's lead singer and guitarist, who wrote Lay it on the Line. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Rik, when you are watching these Oilers fans go crazy, screaming along to your lyrics, a lot of them certainly were not born when it was written. What do you think?

RIK EMMETT: [laughing] There is a surreal nature to all of it, you know? But it's a lovely thing. I mean, I was thinking about all of the different ways that this kind of freaks me out, but in a good way. But the first one on my list is songwriter, that as a songwriter, this song somehow has managed to reincarnate itself.[chuckle] You know, those people out there are singing along because the song is speaking to them in a way that's a powerful thing. Now, you know, we also have to give credit to the Oilers, of course, Canadians' love for, you know, hockey. And, you know, all of that plays in. But, you know, the song is the first thing.

NK: And if you think back to when you wrote it, what do you remember about what inspired it and what it was like? Did you think you had something special?

RE: I did. Part of that is the ego of a writer. [NK chuckles] You write something and you never expect anything, but you hope, you know? And I felt like, first of all, inside my band, I felt like I had something that would impress the other guys. When I played it for them, they would go, oh yeah, Rik, this is great. This is a winner. In the interviews they've been doing lately, they've sort of been saying, oh yeah, five minutes in rehearsal. It was nothing. It was great. Rik had written this great tune. So, I did kind of have a good solid feeling about it. But here's the big thing, that album, the Just a Game album, which was 197.... [making a scared "ooooo"]9.

NK: Yeah.

RK: That was the thing where I was saying to the guys, I'm gonna have to try and sort of put my foot down here and establish my sense of what a band that's called Triumph should be doing in terms of its artistic output. So, that song in particular, Lay it on the Line, it's about integrity. It's about truth. The singer is saying, you know, just give me the truth, that'll do just fine. And now, here's these guys, you now, [chuckling] 46 years later? Well, I haven't done the math exactly, [NK chuckles] but whatever. You know, several decades. And they're saying, okay, so the Stanley Cup, it requires a certain amount of all in. Like, you really have to sort of be, uh, your integrity is going to get stretched. And I really like that. And I thought that was my decision for Triumph. I was writing songs like hold on your dreams, and fight the good fight, and never surrender it, you know?

NK: I was just watching the video just before I came in to talk to you, and I was telling my colleagues there's a point where they cut close up to your eyes and you say, don't waste my time. And I think that that should just be a meme on its own. Don't waste my time, [RE chuckles] it could speak to a lot of people in a lot of different situations.

RE: Yes, yes, it's true. You know, and where does a song start? You know, I'm sitting there, we're going line, uh, fine, uh, you know, and then you have to go to assonance, And you have to go, okay, time, climb.

NK: [laughing] Was there a particular person or incident that inspired you to write it?

RE: I don't think so. No, I think it was just one of those things where, you know, I had that kind of chord progression idea, which remarkably similar to, we lost Rick Derringer a couple of weeks back.

NK: Oh, I'm sorry.

RE: And he'd written Rock and Roll, Hoochie Koo. And that chorus is, you, know, very similar. Of course, there's three chords, and Dominic Triano used to call them the "Money Chords". [chuckle]

NK: Yeah.

RE: And so, you know, everybody from Led Zeppelin to, uh, yeah, Rick Derringer, to Triumph, you know, those, those three chords keep coming back.

NK: The different lives it's taken on over the years. This is a moment, obviously, with the playoff run for the Oilers. What about in the past? How have you seen it come back through the years?

RE: Uh, well, I mean, I never stopped playing it.

NK: Of course.

RE: And I had to, you know, at gigs. But I retired from the road. This is another crazy thing about this is, like, I've retired about seven, eight years ago, and I did not want to travel anymore. And then, this thing starts to happen where then there's, like, managers and, you know, former bandmates and people calling me going, no, come on! We're gonna put the band back together! [NK chuckles] I'm going what band?! There hasn't been a band for such a long time. But here's a really interesting thing that I wanted to mention to you. It's not just a question of the Oilers and the television and all of that, or the song itself. But we're at this point in history where the country has been threatened. And so, there's this whole elbows up kind of thing. That's, it's, it's part of the fuel of this that, you know, bring the Cup back to Canada, yeah. But it's also, you know, stick it to the Panthers [NK chuckles] kind of thing, you know? But, and then here's my song that is kind of making me proud that it's playing a part in making the country come together. You know, I mean, Alberta, they complain about, you know, maybe we're going to leave, you know? And then, no, here they are, they're representing the country. And so, it's kind of like Canada goes, all right, you know, we can sort of come together, and our integrity is a shared integrity. And I really, really like that.

NK: Awe! And you must be so proud.

RE: Yeah, it's a funny moment to happen, have happen, when you're, you know, on the cusp of your 72nd birthday.

NK: You did get together and play for fans in Edmonton, right?

RE: Yes.

NK: What was that like?

RE: Uh, yeah, as wild as you could possibly imagine. [NK chuckles] And we played three songs and it was amazing and it was crazy. And, uh, you know, I mean, yeah. Maybe I'm a little old for it. I'm not sure, but everybody that saw me on TV said, Oh no, Rik, it took 20 years off, as soon as you started singing that song.

NK: Rik, congratulations. A pleasure speaking with you. I appreciate this. Take care.

RE: Thanks, Nil.

CH: Rik Emmett is Triumph's lead singer and guitarist, and the man who wrote Lay it on the Line. He's in Toronto.

[ambient]

Part 2: Mushroom Murder Trial, Students Trying Matcha

Mushroom Murder Trial

Guest: Katy Watson

CH: It was a family lunch that turned fatal. And now, it's the subject of a major murder trial that's gripped Australia. In July 2023, Erin Patterson made Beef Wellington for the family of her estranged husband. In that Beef Wellington was a pretty unsavoury ingredient: poisonous deathcap mushrooms. A few days later, three of her inlaws were dead. One survived. Ms. Patterson is now on trial for murder and attempted murder. She says it was an accident and has pleaded not guilty -- and this week, she continues to testify in her own defence. Katy Watson is a BBC Australia correspondent who's been in the courtroom. We reached her in Sydney, Australia.

NK: Katy, this case is certainly making headlines, and a lot of people around the world are interested, but inside Australia, how would you describe the interest level?

KATY WATSON: Yeah, there's a huge amount of interest in this story. I mean, the trial's taking place in a small town called Morwell, which is about two hours from Melbourne, and it's a court that's not used to such big cases. But even at the beginning of the trial, when the jury had been selected, the judge made very clear that the jury needed to scroll on if they saw anything on the internet, to switch channels, turn the page, to not pay any attention to what the media was saying, that the most important thing that had to do was to look at the evidence in front of them. And every weekend, before they go home, they are also reminded of exactly the same thing, that they must not discuss the trial with anyone. And that this is clearly a very watched trial with numerous podcasts, journalists outside every single day, and, of course, the likes of international journalists like me.

NK: The prosecution said at the outset that they're not going to get into the idea of motive. In what has happened over the last six-plus weeks now, the dozens of witnesses, I mean, what is the strategy there? How are they building a case and not introducing the idea of motive?

KW: So, I mean, the issue at heart is that she's, Erin Patterson, is accused of murdering three of her relatives, attempting to kill a fourth. They say that she deliberately poisoned her relatives; she intended to kill. And the prosecution, last week, was questioning her over her love of her in-laws. She talked a lot about how much she loved her in-laws, how much her in-laws had done for her over many years, even after separating from her husband, Simon Patterson. But the prosecution put it to her that if you really did love them, why were you not telling authorities, notifying them at the first minute that there could have been foraged and deadly mushrooms in that meal? So, they really pushed her on that, and asking why, instead of talking when there is more and more discussion and concern over what went in that meal. Instead, she took her children to school, drove home, picked up the dehydrator and dumped a food dehydrator that she'd used in preparing her meals. She enjoyed cooking mushroom and vegetable recipes using a dehydrator, that she dumped that. And again, did not talk to the authorities about it. I mean, her argument is that she panicked. She knew exactly what had happened. That because of a meal that she'd served, three of her relatives, well, all of her relatives, fell incredibly ill and three died. And she said that that was something that she panicked and she didn't know what to do.

NK: And again, to underline, there's no question what killed the victims. The question at the heart of this is whether she knew it and did it intentionally? What has she been like? What are your observations of Erin Patterson's testimony, and she'll be back on the stand this week, as I understand it?

KW: She talks loudly, she talks confidently. I think over the week, certainly with the prosecution, it felt far more tense at times. Because, of course, if you're talking to a defence lawyer, it went at a slightly slower, more gentle pace, if you like. But certainly, with prosecution, there's a lot of, really, honing in on some of the detail that Erin Patterson talked about, the circumstances leading up to the lunch, but also especially the circumstances after the lunch, questioned because she didn't want to go to hospital to check herself out, she didn't want to take her children to the hospital to check herself out, amid all of her lunch guests falling very very ill. So, all of these questions are really being asked of her, exactly what happened. She's admitted that she's lied to the police, that much she has done. And yes, as you said, that this is not an issue of how they died. That's clear, they died of deathcap mushroom poisoning. The issue they need to get to, the prosecution needs to answer, is, you know, the fact that she did this intentionally.

NK: How, Katy, does this compare to other cases you've covered?

KW: It's been really interesting. Covering a court case, you have to be really careful what you talk about. You can only say what is talked about in front of the jury. So, that makes it quite a clean and very methodical way of reporting a case. And I guess the fact that we're in Australia and this court case is being covered to the extent of something that we'd also do in the U.K. clearly shows the interest that people have. But, I mean, people locally have a big interest in this, especially since Erin Patterson took the stand. There's been a queue of people to get into court every day. And every day, the court is full. It's not a huge court; we're talking maybe 40 seats, but about eight to 10 of those are usually taken up by family of the victims. Ian Wilkinson, who's the only survivor, he is there pretty much every day, supported by his daughter and other members of the family, some of whom are taking notes and obviously watching the trial progress.

NK: And I imagine as much interest as there is in the town, there's probably people who are, I mean, upset by all of the attention. And also, just dealing with the loss and the deaths of these folks.

KW: Yes, I think, well, Morwell is about 40 minutes from where Erin Patterson lived, Leongatha, and a similar distance, I would think, to Corumbura, which is where the victims came from. And certainly in Corumburra, nobody really wants to talk about it. It's obviously very difficult. Three important community members lost their lives. A fourth was very ill. And so, there is a different atmosphere there, certainly, about it. All these towns are towns that were not really on the map. They'd been put on the maps in a really terrible way. And so, there's a kind of interest in where this trial's going. But at the end of the day, you'd be reminded that three people lost their lives.

NK: Katy, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this.

KW: No worries. Cheers.

CH: Katy Watson is a correspondent for BBC Australia. We reached her in Sydney, Australia.

[plucked instrumental]

Duck Walking School

CH: This time of year, staff at a Winnipeg high school put in some extra hours and facilitate a graduation of sorts. It's not the traditional kind, with caps and gowns, and students walking across a big stage. But it's a big transition for a family of ducks nesting in the school's courtyard. Each year, for many years now, staff at Vincent Massey Collegiate have been walking a family of ducks from the courtyard to a river a couple of blocks away. Principal Sharon Labossiere explains how the tradition got started.

SOUNDCLIP

SHARON LABOSSIERE: So, in the middle of our school, we have quite a big courtyard, and there's trees and plants and shrubs and grass areas in there. And so, the duck, every year, I guess the subsequent generations of this duck lay their eggs in the courtyard. And it's in the centre. There's no way, there's no path outside. They have to come through the school to go out.

CHLOE FRIESEN: So, what's the process of getting them from the courtyard to the river?

SL: The mama duck kind of paces in front of the door to our cafeteria. So, she kind of lets us know that it's time to go. So, they kind of corral her a little bit, kind of encourage her to go a certain way and out the front door. So, she walks through the cafeteria with all her little ducklings following and down the front hall and out our main doors.

CF: What's your favourite part about this duck-led tradition?

SL: [chuckling] I think it's just so sweet and so heartwarming. And we were joking around and calling it the "Duck Convocation". It is June. And so, you know, the ducks are moving onto, the ducklings, are moving onto their next stage. And so, they're doing their little march through the school. It is just, you know, it's such a beautiful thing to watch and witness, and so cute and so special for our school.

CF: Now, you work in education, so I have to ask, is this used as a teaching moment at all in the classrooms?

SL: Well, I can't really speak to that. But I think it certainly speaks to us living with nature and living in nature and having it around us. And, you know, we have to cherish those beautiful moments and special times, especially, you know, what's happening around us right now. And, you know, just, it's just joyful, I think. And we all need a little bit of joy and laughter. And it's so cute. Anyone that watches it is giggling, so I hope that people will be able to see it. It is just very cute.

CH: Sharon Labossiere is the principal of Vincent Massey Collegiate in Winnipeg. She was talking to Chloe Friesen on Up to Speed.

[plucked instrumental]

FOA: Frederick Forsyth Obit

CH: By any measure, Frederick Forsyth was an enormously successful writer: he wrote 24 books, which sold a combined 75 millions copies around the world. His first novel, The Day of the Jackal is considered a classic spy thriller that was made into a movie in 1973 and a successful miniseries last year -- so, his work is clearly still relevant. But if you're listening to this program, I'm going to guess that another title soars above all the rest for you, like it does for us. A short novella with a white-knuckle plot and a slightly spooky holiday theme, and it's been heard on As It Happens at Christmastime for decades -- read by the great Alan Maitland. Frederick Forsyth -- the author of The Shepherd -- has died at the age of 86. Before his long career in journalism and literature, Mr. Forsyth joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 18. And that inspired The Shepherd -- about a pilot on an ill-fated flight over the North Sea. But some of the more uncanny elements of the story -- no spoilers -- were a departure from the spy fiction that had made him famous. In 2006, he told our former host Carol Off a bit about the genesis of the The Shepherd.

SOUNDCLIP

FREDERICK FORSYTH: Well, basically, I had written the first three major novels in 1970, 71, 73, and then I decided to take a break. I got myself married, and my new wife and I went over to Spain. And then because she was Irish, we decided to spend our first winter back, so to speak, in Ireland. So we went to Dublin, and there we checked into a hotel. I wasn’t intending to write that Christmas at all, but I had a present for her in the form of a diamond ring, which I'd always wanted. She had this habit of looking to see what I'd bought her for Christmas, which is supposed to be a surprise. So she’s looking through the room and couldn't find anything. So eventually, she said, okay, fine. You know, what have you got me for Christmas? Obviously a diamond ring, and I had it in my pocket. So I pretended to be a fool. I said, oh, no, I forgot all about it. So she got pretty put out and said, Well, oh, if it's going to be like that, then write me a ghost story. So Christmas afternoon, having had the big Blow-Out feast, my parents who were with us went for their little afternoon siesta, and she went and had a nap, and I couldn't sleep. So I sat down and in about 5 hours, I wrote The Shepherd.

CO: Then did she get the diamond ring?

FF: Of course, oh, yeah, sure.

[CO and FF laughing]

FF: Yeah, yeah. That came out of my pocket in due course. But then, we were one present extra. We had a short story and didn’t know what to do with it. Anyway, I gave it to her and I thought no more of it. I thought it was just between us. And she read it and gave it to my father, and he said, Well, I like it. So she said, I'm going to get in touch with his agent. The next thing I knew, my agent came over to Ireland from London, and he took it back with him to London. And the next thing he said, you're going to publish it as a separate short story, just a slim little thing for the Christmas market. I think it was put out before the following Christmas Day, Christmas of 75. And it's been a kind of a Christmas story ever since.

CO: Well, for sure. Why do you think that still over all the decades, people can actually listen to this story over and over again? Our listeners get this reading every year. And every year by November, they're starting to ask us what date it’s going to be on. What do you think it is about it?

FF: I really don't know. I think yours must be the only broadcasting service I know who does use it as a kind of regular chestnut with a reading at Christmas. I'm very glad of that, because obviously, it was designed as a Christmas story, and I literally put in the allegory of the shepherd. I mean, Jesus being, so to speak, the shepherd. And that's why, you know, these rescue planes are called shepherds. And I just thought, you know, it's about Christmas and it's all there. And it just pleases me very much. The people, you know, even though they must know the answer, they must know the…

CO: How it ends.

FF: About the end. They must know how they still continue to like it. It's very pleasing.

CH: From 2006, that was former As It Happens host Carol Off speaking with writer Frederick Forsyth about his novella, The Shepherd, which is heard yearly on As It Happens, in a reading by Al Maitland. Frederick Forsyth died today. He was 86.

[jazz]

Students Trying Matcha

Guest: Khadim Thiam

CH: Khadim Thiam just wanted to try matcha -- the popular Japanese green tea. And so did his friends. So, they all went out and got some, and posted a video about the experience.

SOUNDCLIP

[laughter]

KHADIM THIAM: So, one, two, three.

CH: And Mr. Thiam thought it was a hit. But a bunch of viewers disagreed: the comments section was flooded with negative remarks -- and the suggestion that the drink isn't for men. That matcha is not macho. But that didn't stop Mr. Thiam or his group, who have now had a whole series of adventures -- and posted videos that have brought them international attention -- and millions of views. We reached Khadim Thiam in New York City.

NK: Khadim, is matcha your favourite now?

KHADIM THIAM: I mean, I wouldn't say it's my favorite, [NK chuckles] but recently, I've been getting it a lot.

NK: Yeah. And if we go back to the decision to do this video, what made you decide on matcha?

KT: For one, it was, everybody was talking about it online. And I needed to try it with my group of friends. We were contemplating to try for so long, and the day finally came. And it basically changed the history.

NK: [chuckling] Yeah, matcha has been popular for a really long time. But I know what you mean. These things, like, start exploding and showing up on, on your feed. And then, it gets into your head, and you're like, okay, let's try this. And so, did you, what did you think would happen once you posted this video?

KT: I thought it was going to get a little something because I thought the video was pretty funny, and, like, matcha was trending. But I didn't expect it to be like this.

NK: And when did you realize that it was this, and even more than what you thought?

KT: When random people started, like, posting us on Instagram, Complex, they put us in, like, a collage. They had us, like, in one of their slides, and they said there was a matcha shortage. [NK chuckles] And, like, they had us as one of the reasons why there's a matcha shortage. So, I was like, oh okay, yeah, so, this is, yeah, this is getting too crazy.

NK: And so, people are sharing. You see a lot of good comments, but with anything online, as someone who's been in the space for a while, and even those who aren't experts know, as soon as you start having fun, [chuckling] or exhibiting any kind of joy, there'll be people who don't respond well. What kinds of things did you hear?

KT: They were saying comments like, oh, when are men gonna be the men? We're cosplaying women, cause we're trying matcha. You know they were being, like, homophobic, I guess, 'cause we're just having fun trying this new thing -- people that consider it, like, feminine and girly, so.

NK: How did you respond when you saw all that?

KT: I responded by making more videos of us trying other, I guess, feminine things, just saying, like, oh, we don't care. We're gonna do what we want, and we're going to have fun regardless.

NK: And you guys are, I watched some of the other videos, tell our listeners some of the other mini adventures you and your crew have been on.

KT: Which one was your favourite?

NK: Oh, the dance class was pretty good. Again, [chuckling] I don't think that's a particularly feminine activity, but glad you did it. Which one was your favourite?

KT: We recently took a singing class with a band called Laundry Day.

NK: Yeah.

KT: I can't wait to post this one. Like, every, the thing about all of our adventures, like, it just keeps getting better. Like, the next thing tops the thing that we did before.

NK: What was your first one after the big matcha breakthrough?

KT: We got boba. Yeah, we did pilates, puppy yoga, [NK chuckles] bachata classes, salsa classes, African dance classes, trampoline cardio. We did a lot of stuff.

NK: How do you decide what you're going to do?

KT: We decide collectively. People also, like, start to comment what we should try next. That helps a lot because the amount of random, fun things that we don't know about, we just love to try those things and pick and choose which I say would be nice and fun and creative for the next video.

NK: You, you also, obviously, as you get traction, people start noticing, celebrities start noticing. I did, I think one of my favourites actually is the Burna Boy, uh, one. They reached out to you, right? But the, and it's so funny. I think it was ahead of the Met Gala, right? That's why he's so decked out.

KT: So basically, we picked out flowers for Burna Boy's Met Gala entrance.

NK: Yeah.

KT: And the flowers matched his outfit. And then also, while he was walking to us for us to give him the flowers, we did our, yeah, you know, our intro.

NK: The trademark?

KT: Like, everybody was just happy. Yeah, we did our trademark and everybody was just happy. Like, that collab was amazing. The joy and smile on my friend's faces and also Burna Boy's face was just like, it was cool to see.

NK: And just hearing him say that he's getting his first flowers, that was, that was great, too. How, how did things, how did people start reacting once you jumped up to that level?

KT: You know, people started to see that we're breaking all these weird boundaries that society has placed on men. Some people were saying, like, oh, why are men giving other men flowers? And, you know, they're continuing to be homophobic and all that crazy stuff for just doing a small gesture of giving someone flowers.

NK: You mentioned that word joy a moment ago, and you've talked about Black boy joy, that phrase that I think Danielle Young coined back in 2016, but why do you think that is so powerful right now? And that people are reacting to that joy.

KT: Black men and boys deserve to be joyful. Like, we're not menaces to society, or, you know, those stereotypical things that people think of us that like, well, we can be strong and soft and joyful. And I feel like we deserve to be in many spaces in society, and, you know, uplifting all these spaces as well with our joy and our presence. Because we bring a lot to the table. You know, Black boy joy to the world.

NK: [chuckle] What's next? What's the next trip?

KT: Oh, today we're actually doing a cake decorating class.

NK: Oh?! That's hard.

KT: Oh yeah, that should be fine.

NK: [chuckling] We'll look out for that, Khadim. This was fun. Thanks for making time for us.

KT: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Khadim Thiam and his friends went viral after posting a video in which they tried matcha for the first time. We reached him in New York City.

[poppy beat]

Part 3: Measles Pregnancy Op-Ed, Turner Painting Found

Service Dog Statue

CH: Everyone who has a dog considers it a friend. Some of those friends chase squirrels and eat slippers and, frankly, are generally goofs. But some are a bit more dignified. They’re more thoughtful. The kind of friend who can be relied on whenever you need help. And for those who rely on service dogs, they offer daily support with mundane tasks, or mental health. Well, the small community of Kimberly, B.C., has just unveiled a statue downtown, honouring service dogs. The CBC's Corey Bullock spoke with members of the veterans group Military Ames about why service dogs are so important in helping vets navigate PTSD, and how people are responding to the new monument.

SOUNDCLIP

KYLE DALUM: Hi, my name is Kyle Dalum, a veteran, quite emotional, it's intense.

COREY BULLOCK: And so, can you tell me a little bit about the statue, about feeling, describe the statue for me?

KD: The statue of Phelan is 5,000 pounds of granite, which came out considerably larger than we had intended, but it's how she was. She was absolutely larger than life, and a presence that people met her once and the impact carried forward. People still talk about her.

CB: You know, she was your service dog for a long time. Can you just tell me how she helped you?

KD: So, she was my first service dog, she was my introduction into the actual world of service dogs. She helped me by interrupting a cascade of negative effects in my brain, or my actions. She made such a massive impact, she changed my entire life. I went from being a basement-dwelling hermit, to putting all my energy out into the world, and trying to build that community.

CB: And so, having a statue of her here in the Platzl in Kimberley, what does it mean to you to know that other veterans can come here and take solace in that?

KD: I feel really good about this. Because even veterans and first responders that have a dog that maybe doesn't wear a vest, they know the impact those dogs have. And some members of the community also understand a little bit of how we're safer around them, they're safer around us, and those dogs, they care. They're a gateway to the world again.

[clapping]

CH: The CBC's Corey Bullock speaking to a veteran from the group, Military Ames.

[Spanish guitar]

ALTA. Trans Athlete

CH: Allison Hadley just wants to keep competing. She's a transgender woman who has taken part in sports for years -- before and after her transition. Now the Alberta government has passed legislation called the "Fairness and Safety in Sport Act". It says that, as of September, trans women will not be allowed in female divisions of amateur sports leagues. Allison Hadley spoke to CBC Calgary host Loren McGinnis.

SOUNDCLIP

ALLISON HADLEY: I used to play more competitive sports when I was younger, but now I do recreational sport. And I'm not even sure if I can register for events anymore. For example, yeah, I'm a cross-country skier and for the Burka Biner, which is Canada's biggest cross- country ski gathering, I competed a couple of times before transitioning. And then, I've competed after, as a woman, as well, and no one's had any problems with me until now.

LOREN MCGINNIS: Hmm

AH: You know, I'm a middle-aged person. I'm going to finish middle of the pack. Like, I'm there to keep my cardiovascular health good and develop healthy habits. Like, I am not taking on anyone's Olympic spot.

LM: Right. Now, you mentioned playing more competitive sports, competing in more competitive sports earlier in your life. Is there a kind of caution around this at an elite sport level? Like, It's called Fairness and Safety. What are the questions around fairness and safety that you think are relevant?

AH: That's the thing is I think a lot of them are based on hypotheticals. A lot of people are like, well, what if an elite male athlete comes in and dominates women's sports? Or, I feel it's pretty misogynistic that people think that just the average man can go in and dominate women's sports as well. Whereas, um, just very recently, like, I used to play rugby; I was a semi-pro rugby player, I'd go to other countries playing rugby. Um, and on June 1st, there was a game where a team of trans women played a team of cis women, and the team of cis women won handedly, like it's not even something where they say it's okay, the strength sports, the endurance sports, and rugby is both of those. Yeah, and that's why this paranoia is really annoying because I've noticed when I've been training, I lost so much upper body strength on hormones. And, you know, even before this, we weren't allowed to compete in sports aligning with our gender until we had been on hormone therapy for a year or more and our levels have been stable. Unfortunately, trans people are one of the few groups that it seems to be okay to outwardly hate and discriminate against. And so, it just doesn't seem to come from anywhere. Like, I've been speaking on this for, you know, since it's been announced, and I don't know of one single elite transgender athlete in Alberta who is taking scholarships away from anyone.

CH: That was transgender athlete Allison Hadley talking to CBC Calgary host Loren McGinnis.

[hip-hop]

Measles Pregnancy Op-Ed

Guest: Catherine Varner

CH: Measles is still on the rise in Ontario -- and it's affecting some of its smallest, and most vulnerable, residents. Today, provincial officials revealed that six infants have been born with congenital measles since last fall. The province's chief medical officer of health says they were infected in utero, through mothers who were not vaccinated. Last week, the province had its first measles-related fatality. A premature baby died. There were other, unrelated medical complications, but officials say measles may have contributed to both the early birth and the death. An editorial published today in the Canadian Medical Association Journal highlights the risks for anyone who is, or is planning to be, pregnant, in the midst of this outbreak. Dr. Catherine Varner wrote that op-ed. She's an emergency physician, and we reached her in Toronto.

NK: Dr. Varner, when you write in your piece that anyone who's thinking about becoming pregnant, or someone who's pregnant right now, is quote, bearing the burden of this outbreak, what do you mean by that?

CATHERINE VARNER: Well, we were hearing from our colleagues in Southwestern Ontario that they felt that we weren't talking about this enough. What they were hearing their pregnant patients was that they were feeling incredibly anxious living amidst an outbreak, and not knowing perhaps coming into pregnancy that they may not be fully immune to acquiring measles infection. So, that, I think, is an important nuance is that it's not just unvaccinated people who may be at risk of acquiring measles infection, but it's also people who may have only received one dose of a measles-containing vaccine.

NK: And for listeners who may not know, if you're already pregnant, the measles vaccine is not recommended for you. So, what happens when there is an exposure? There's a very tight window of the kind of help that they can get, if they choose to get that help, right?

CV: Absolutely. So, that's what these two articles really wanted to emphasize and highlight was that if someone does have an exposure during pregnancy there is a six-day window where they can receive a treatment called intravenous immunoglobulin that is administered in a hospital that can prevent a measles infection.

NK: When you heard last week about the first death, a premature infant in Ontario who died, and it's linked to this outbreak of measles, where did your mind go?

CV: I think all of us who care for pregnant people, and we just felt that this was a preventable tragedy. That no infant should be dying of measles in Canada in 2025.

NK: In an interview with the Canadian press, Kieran Moore says that 40 pregnant people have been infected with measles in Ontario. Only two of them were vaccinated. What do those numbers suggest to you, Doctor?

CV: Well, it means that we need to be speaking more with our patients and the public about both vaccination before becoming pregnant, and then in patients who are susceptible to measles infection during pregnancy, so those who are either unvaccinated or may not have had a second dose of vaccine, what to do in case they are exposed. And, I think, that was something that the editors of CMAJ felt that was really important about these articles coming out was that we had not heard enough about the implications of measles infection in pregnancy. It's such a high-risk time to be infected with measles. And that was was really something that people were not speaking enough about. And we really wanted to get the word out there that it's important for people who are contemplating pregnancy, and also those who are pregnant, to be aware of the need for having two doses of measles vaccination. And then also, if they are exposed and have not had two doses of measle vaccination, to seek help immediately from their healthcare provider.

NK: We have, we should say, made multiple interview requests for Ontario's chief medical officer of health, Dr. Kieran Moore. His office has declined all of those requests. In April I did speak with André Picard, a journalist with the Globe and Mail, who was quite outspoken, criticizing what he sees as a lack of urgency from the province in terms of responding and speaking out regularly and very publicly. He said, quote, we shouldn't just be sitting on our hands, unquote. What would you like to see?

CV: So, specific to pregnancy, there's a large proportion of the population, it's estimated one in five reproductive-aged people, are not fully, or may be susceptible to measles infection because they've only received one dose of measles-containing vaccine, or they've not been vaccinated at all. And so, it's critically important for those people who are contemplating pregnancy to speak to their healthcare provider before becoming pregnant to talk about ensuring that they are not susceptible to measles infection, not only to protect themselves and their fetus, but also to decrease the anxiety of going through a pregnancy amidst rolling measles outbreaks across our country.

NK: I want to ask you about what your patients are telling you in just a moment, but you also write that every clinic, every hospital, needs to be reviewing their protocols for managing measles exposures, particularly for the patients who are pregnant. Is that happening? Is it happening quickly enough?

CV: I think that hospitals are reviewing their guidance, particularly to triage providers. If you see a patient with a rash, think measles. And I think something the public may not realize is that healthcare providers who are trained like I was 15 years ago, we never saw measles, this was not something that was routine for us. And now, certainly in areas where there are more outbreaks, this is now becoming routine practice where people are needing to identify and recognize patients with measles early, meaning minutes within the time that they present to a healthcare facility. As these outbreaks become more common across Canada, healthcare providers need to be attuned to the fact that a patient presenting with a fever and a rash, measles needs to be first and foremost on their mind to help prevent infections in vulnerable populations like unvaccinated people, like those who are pregnant, or for other immunocompromising conditions that would put them at risk. I think the challenge for emergency physicians is that they are encountering patients who have been exposed to measles and may not have a doctor or family physician to help receive guidance over the phone. And not knowing where to go, they ended up in an emergency department, either potentially exposing themselves to further infection risk, or if they are showing symptoms of measles infection, then potentially exposing others in the healthcare setting. These patients are coming into the emergency department not because they are acutely unwell, but they have a hard time accessing healthcare, or a hard time accessing information about what to do, either if exposed, or have early symptoms.

NK: From where you sit, Doctor, and this might be difficult to answer, but where do you think we are at in terms of this outbreak? You know, if we're thinking six months, a year down the line, are we going to be in a place that's worse or better?

CV: I think we will continue with sub-threshold vaccination rates, continue to see outbreaks through the course of our communities across Canada. And then, areas where the vaccination rates are lower, these outbreaks will be more prevalent, unfortunately.

NK: Dr. Varner, I appreciate this. Thank you for your time.

CV: Thank you so much for having me, Nil.

CH: Dr. Catherine Varner is the deputy editor of the Canadian Medical Association Journal. We reached her in Toronto.

[toy store music]

SOUNDCLIP

BROOKLYN BOWMAN: Down here, basically every rock and little crack is full of, like, microplastic pieces, bottle caps, large bottles, bags, buoys, anything you can think of that's plastic, it gets stuck in these rocks. And no one's coming down to clean it up, or people aren't walking along it, so it's just staying there and building up. As to where a popular beach like Gonzales or something, people are constantly walking it. So, if you see something, you probably are more likely to pick it up.

EMILY FAGAN: How much garbage do you need to make a full orca? Like, how much are you aiming for?

BB: I don't know in pounds how much I have. I definitely have 10 good-sized bags, if not more, and a huge just pile. Like, I don't know, probably a four-or-five-foot-by-four-or-five-foot pile of stuff right now. I've also found a huge, I dunno, might be off of like a tugboat or something, some sort of, like, rubber gripping that was washed up. That's about 11 feet long, and it's got some good weight to it. So, everything that the orca is made of is found on the beaches, or the water. And I'm doing this just because I think it's a cool idea. It's cool to clean up the beaches and turn it into something. I'm excited for everyone to see what it turns into, what literal garbage can turn into, um, and just kind of, like, create awareness, I guess, of plastic, but in a different way than how most people would.

EF: Was there anything surprising in the stuff you found so far?

BB: I found a lot of shotgun shells. And the rubber tugboat thing, if it was from a tugboat, I don't know for sure. That was definitely a shocker kind of thing. It's huge. So, that was kind of cool and perfect. It couldn't be more perfect for my projects. I think that's why it was more kind of unexpected just to find such a perfect piece.

EF: Was there something in particular that inspired you to want to do this project?

BB: Orcas are definitely my favourite animal. I definitely love orcas, everything I wear or whatever often has orcas. And definitely, I'm not, like, crazy. Like, I'm not gonna say I'm huge into, like, the garbage kind of thing and environment, but I love, I want to be kind of more so involved in it. And I think I'd like it if people could realize maybe a little more as to what happens when they throw out their plastic, and maybe just think twice about what you're doing, and littering specifically. And, oh, do I really need to buy a 24-pack of water, or can I just refill my water bottle kind of a thing, or refill my glass. So, I think, that would be good just to, and just pick up if you see something while you're walking by, pick it up. It doesn't have to be your garbage to pick it, it can be anyone's.

CH: Victoria artist Brooklyn Bowman, speaking with the CBC's Emily Fagan.

[hip-hop]

Turner Painting Found

Guest: Julian Gascoigne

CH: For more than 100 years, experts pretty much ignored the painting -- assuming it was a watercolour by an obscure artist. But it turned out to be an oil painting, and it also turned out to be a very un-obscure artist. It was by J.M.W. Turner. It was, in fact, the very first oil painting J.M.W Turner had ever painted. This was an enormous discovery, which means that the price is now also enormous: when it goes up for auction in July, it's expected to fetch at least 300,000 pounds -- which is more than $550,000 Cdn. Julian Gascoigne is leading the charge at Sotheby’s, where the painting is set to spark a serious bidding war. We reached him in London, England.

NK: Julian, I suspect this happens to you a lot, that someone comes to your office holding a piece of art, maybe a painting, and says, I think there's something here. Can you take a closer look? What happened this time?

JULIAN GASCOIGNE: Well, you're absolutely right. I mean, I wish it happened a bit more often, but yes.

NK: Be careful! [chuckling] Be careful!

JG: It does happen from time to time. And, you know, it's always very exciting when something comes through the door that you're not expecting to see. Obviously, Turner is a big name. And one's immediate sort of reaction when you hear that someone's discovered a Turner is naturally to be slightly suspicious.

NK: Yeah. Is that the wording they used? Did they say, I think this might be a Turner, or did they just sort of take the wrapping off and let you assess?

JG: Yeah, no, absolutely. They did in this case, primarily because, actually, the picture is signed by the artist, which was discovered, or they discovered when they took it to a restorer to have it cleaned. And many decades worth of old discolored varnish and sort of dirt on the surface was removed, and up popped this signature in the lower left. And so, they had an inkling that it might be something quite exciting and brought it in to show us.

NK: And you were still skeptical, though, even with that signature.

JG: Well, once I'd seen the signature and dug into it a bit, but, you know, with a big name, it's sort of when something sounds too good to be true, more often than not, it is, but in this case, actually, it turned out to be extremely exciting. I suppose the thing about this picture that makes one sort of wonder when you first see it is that it doesn't look precisely like what you'd expect the Turner to look like. It certainly doesn't look very much like his later sort of 1830s, 1840s pictures, you know, those great masterpieces for which he's famous. And that's precisely because it is, you know, it is his very first attempt, really, in painting in oil. And at the time, he was working very closely with an artist called Jack de lauterberg who is a French emigrate painter working in London. And it looks unsurprisingly very much like a work by de lautherberg.

NK: Oh, he was influenced.

JG: Exactly. When you dig into it, exactly, he was influencing him at the time

NK: Can you describe for our listeners what The Rising Squall does look like?

JG: Absolutely. So, the main focus of the composition is a rather awkward and unusual cluster of buildings that are a real place. It's Hotwell's House in Bristol, in the Avon Gorge, which at the time was quite a popular tourist attraction, and you're looking sort of across a small inlet, a bay with a sort of rocky foreshore in the foreground. And the sea is sort of starting to boil and bubble and getting sort of tempestuous. It's got this wonderful sort of dark stormy blue tonality, and it's an incredibly dramatic, very romantic scene for something that is produced by such a young artist.

NK: It is. Yeah, how old? [chuckle]

JG: So, he was 17 when he painted this picture. [NK chuckles] So yeah, it really is.

NK: And how did you confirm that this is, in fact, a Turner?

JG: Yeah, so it was a bit of a long process in terms of researching the picture, tracking back into its provenance. There was an element of scientific analysis, looking at the medium and taking IR images. And then, working with the sort of community of scholars in this area who spent a lot of time specializing in Turner's work. But essentially, the crux was really that we discovered in early obituaries written shortly after he died that 1793 is the year that he exhibits his his first oil painting, and the subject and title of that painting is given. And it fits exactly with this picture.

NK: Just the detective work involved. I love it. I love so many layers to these stories, including the art, of course. Then you had to also dig into, you know, what has happened to it for all of these decades. Someone bought it initially when it was first painted. Who was that?

JG: Yes, so it was bought by a man called the Reverend Robert Nixon, who was a client of Turner's father, who was a barber in Covent Garden. And Nixon would go to have his haircut at Turner's father's barbershop, where he had posted on the walls, drawings and watercolors by his son. And he was one of the first people to sort of encourage the young Turner to paint in oils. And he would go and stay at Nixon's house, and he would introduce himself to other artist that he knew. And then when he dies in the late 1830s, it descends to his son, who is also a man of the cloth, and is appointed Bishop of Tasmania. And one of the reasons that this picture has sort of fallen into obscurity and been lost to scholars for so long is because even within Turner's lifetime it left Britain to Tasmania with Francis Nixon as he was known, as he's called. And we know this because it was exhibited in two exhibitions in Hobart Town in the mid 19th century. So, it did this extraordinary journey to, you know, quite literally to the other side of the world. And then when it came back to Britain in the 1860s, it was offered for auction at Christie's. And since then, it basically disappeared into obscurity, and had not been seen until now.

NK: For 150 years or so, where was it?

JG: It was in a private collection in Britain, where, as it sometimes happens, over the generations as things pass down through families, their identity becomes forgotten. And the history and authorship of this picture had been lost. But it's extraordinary, and such sort of serendipity that it has come to light. And it's a great thing to be able to add to the canon of his work. And it completely changes our understanding of his early career.

NK: Julian, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

JG: My pleasure, very good to talk to you.

CH: Julian Gascoigne is the senior director at Sotheby's in London, England.

[ambient]

Sly Stone Obit

CH: Sly Stone's relationship with music began early. He started making music with his siblings when he was still a kid. Before too long, he was an accomplished multi-instrumentalist. By the time he was a teenager, he'd already recorded some singles in Los Angeles with one of his early bands. And that began a career that spanned decades -- and would ultimately make him a foundational figure in the funk movement of the 1960s and ‘70s, and a major influence on music to this day. Sly Stone has died at the age of 82. In a statement, his family says he'd been battling lung disease, and other underlying health issues. In 1966, Mr. Stone and his brother, Freddie, put their talents and bands together to form Sly and the Family Stone. The result was a electrifying blend of psychedelic rock, soul, and jazz that drew large crowds. The band produce a bunch of mega-hits, like Dance to the Music, Everyday People, and Family Affair. The group was formed of siblings and cousins. And it also had both Black and white musicians, and male and female members, a rarity at the time. Eventually, Mr. Stone's career stalled, as he struggled with personal problems, including increasing drug use. But the music he made is as vital today as ever -- and in 2017, the Grammys honoured him with a Lifetime Achievement Award.

The AIH Transcript For June 9, 2025

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