Finance Minister Bill Morneau, Finance Minister Bill Morneau

Guests: Bill Morneau, Julia Fullerton, John Sinopoli

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ANDREW SCHEER: I hold the government responsible for government decisions, and what we've seen from the beginning of this crisis is a government that is slow to react and has to constantly reverse itself.

MATT GALLOWAY: I think it's fair to say that politicians in Ottawa are in agreement about the scale of the economic meltdown that we're facing right now. They are not entirely in agreement, though, on how to tackle it. As financial aid is offered to those suddenly struggling. We'll hear from the finance minister on who's being helped and who still needs assistance and we'll get reaction as well from the conservative leader, Andrew Scheer. Also this morning, wondering what to do with all those dried beans in your pantry. Samin Nosrat has the answer.

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This is the opportunity that everyone's been waiting for, because what makes you a better cook is practise.

MG: The Netflix star and cookbook author is here later to talk about her new podcast for home cooks who suddenly have a lot of time on their hands. Speaking of time, you might think that this would be the best of times to be stuck inside with your significant other. Maybe not so much. We'll hear from the relationship columnist Dan Savage on intimacy in a time of physical distancing. Plus, Tom Power on what you absolutely must watch during these long days. We begin, though, with Bill Morneau and calls on him to do more for those struggling to make ends meet. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. This is an extended edition of The Current.

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MG: Well, it could be the biggest economic program in Canadian history. The federal government just unveiled more new measures to help people through this pandemic. Part of the plan will cover 75 percent of the wages of workers whose employers have been hit hard by COVID-19. Bill Morneau is a federal finance minister. Minister, good morning.

BILL MORNEAU: Good morning, Matt. Glad to be on the show this morning.

MG: Thank you for being here, and I hope you're doing well in the midst of all of this. Why is this wage subsidy program the best way to help Canadians who are struggling because of the economic fallout that we're facing?

BILL MORNEAU: Well, I would tell you, Matt, that it's it's actually part of a broader plan. And so it's a very important part of that plan. The first part of the plan, I think, as you know, was the emergency response benefit, and that was to make sure that that all Canadians could get access to funds if they've got no revenue as a result of COVID-19 that we announced over the course of the last couple of weeks. This is important because what it's doing is it's giving employers the ability to keep their employees on staff. It's allowing for them to have a 75 percent of the pre-crisis income going to employees. So it means that people can stay connected to their employer. So when they get out of this unfortunate and very challenging but temporary problem that we have an economy that can actually continue to work with people attached to their employers and to get back to work.

MG: You've said that the money would be available in approximately six weeks. What are people supposed to do until then?

BILL MORNEAU: Well, I think I probably should make sure people understand. So the emergency response benefit, which is going directly to people, we should be able to start that process next week. We've been working hard to make sure that the program is there so people can apply online. For the wage subsidy for businesses, we are working hard. We've said that the site will be up within three to six weeks. We're working to try to make it within three weeks. Of course, these are brand new approaches to new challenges and that is meaning we're going to have to do our best to get it up and running as quickly as possible. I think it will be something that will help employers enormously and obviously help people. And we just got to get it done as soon as possible.

MG: But I guess the question is, what are people supposed to do until then? That's the second of April rent was due yesterday. People are wondering how to pay the bills. And a lot of employers have already let employees go because they can't wait to continue to receive those funds. So what should they be doing in the interim?

BILL MORNEAU: If employees have been let go, they can apply for the Canada Emergency Response Benefit. And that, as I said, will be up and running next week. For employers, we have multiple things that we're doing. We, first of all, said that this program will be available and they'll have to pay their employees and show us that they're paying them. Top of that, we've put in place with the banks, and that was done last week, an ability for businesses, small businesses to get an emergency bank loan of up to $40,000 with no interest. That that's important. They'll get $10,000 forgiveness if they pay it back within the period between now and the end of 2022. So that can also be something to help people to get through a difficult time. We're just working to try and make sure we have the ability to help people during this time, recognising that it's absolutely unprecedented. And there have not been any approaches federally to do this before this. So we're trying our best to get it out and done as rapidly as possible.

MG: And the situation is changing day by day. The last time we spoke, we talked about the idea of a direct cash payment to people. In the United States, the federal government is writing checks for 1,200 dollars to taxpayers. Have you changed your mind on that? You initially ruled that out, but is that something that you would consider now, given the lag time? And again, I know you're moving quickly, but given the lag time that still exists in terms of getting money into the hands of people here.

BILL MORNEAU: Well, that wouldn't improve the speed, Matt. That would still require us to figure out how to do things. And importantly, it wouldn't actually target the people who are challenged. So 1,200 dollars one time, as the U.S. is doing, is not nearly as good as you know, in the case of our emergency response benefit, 500 dollars a week for 16 weeks, which is actually 8,000 dollars or the emergency wage subsidy, which is up to 847 dollars a week for 12 weeks. So we're trying to make sure we're targeting the people who are directly impacted by COVID-19, recognising that those people, they need to have the capacity to buy groceries, to pay rent. And we need to recognise that. For the people who aren't impacted, for the people who are still at work, the people who are able to work from home, they're less financially implicated. And we have to focus on the health care needs and other needs of people more broadly. So we think this is the right approach to target our resources to the literally millions of people who are going to be directly impacted.

MG: You mentioned the banks. Banks have been given extra liquidity and yet we're still hearing stories of people who are going looking for mortgage relief and they're not getting it. And the mortgage rates have actually risen in the last couple of days. Are banks doing enough to help people out during this crisis?

BILL MORNEAU: I've been working hard with the banks, first of all, I think it's important to know that the agreement we came to with the banks in terms of the guarantees for them providing loans to businesses that was struck just last Thursday, so a week ago. So they are now getting that out into their organizations. The support for small businesses, that $40,000 no interest loan, they're working to have systems up and running. Last Thursday, they told me that they thought they could do it within three weeks. I think they'll probably even exceed that target. But they, too, have to have the administrative capability to help more than a million small businesses as they come to them. So they are working on those issues. You know, I think every organisation we all need to be in this together. And I've been pushing the banks to do their best to be supportive. I know in terms of mortgage deferrals, they are trying to deal with the volumes that they're seeing. And I am sure, like with every other issue that we're seeing in this pandemic, there will be challenges that we can't necessarily predict. And I'm sure it's the same for the banks.

MG: One of the issues when it comes to banks is credit card interest rates. Those rates are still very, very high. Do you believe that the credit card interest rates that people are being charged now, it's not that people shouldn't pay the money that they owe, but in this extraordinary time, do you believe that those interest rates should be lowered on credit card?

BILL MORNEAU: Obviously, we're trying to find solutions for every challenge that comes up. I will tell you that the focus of my attention has been the benefits that are going to help so many Canadians and that's why these emergency response benefits and the wage subsidies have been so important. I have also been trying to work with the banks to make sure that they're taking appropriate action. That is why those mortgage deferrals are possible. They all have agreed for the ability of people, if they need to, to skip payments on auto loans or on credit card. So, I'm not saying there's not more that banks can do. I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep working with them. But I do think that we need to focus on the things that are immediately important for people. And that's why we're very, very focussed on how we can actually make sure these benefits get out to people as rapidly as possible.

MG: So no comment on the interest rates are going to go. I think that that's something that a lot of people are facing because they might be racking up credit card debt because they're not making money right now. And they wonder why they're still paying 20 percent at a time of economic uncertainty.

BILL MORNEAU: As I said, I'm working with the banks, as with other institutions, to make sure that they're part of this, the dealing with this challenge, and pushing them in in many ways, including pushing for them to actually get credit out to businesses across the country, which will help to sustain businesses during a difficult time. And so, you know, everybody will have different views on how I should be pushing the banks. To me is most important because we need to have an economy that's going to function when we get through this and we'll keep working with them. So the specific measures, we'll keep on them with that credit. And hopefully people that are really under stress will take advantage of the opportunity to skip a payment if they need to. And the benefits that we're providing for them, we hope, will allow them to sustain their bills and their and their personal expenses during this time.

MG: There have been announcements almost daily in terms of that fiscal support. And it's as you said, you know, things are changing at an incredible pace and it's unprecedented. One of the announcements that people are still waiting for is help for the oil and gas sector, which was already suffering because of plunging price of oil. You've said that that's coming. When will we hear further details about that?

BILL MORNEAU: We're working right now on a broader credit support for businesses that are experiencing challenges, and I do know that the energy sector is an important part of that. So in the next short while, we'll have more information. It's not just for the energy sector, though, it's the hospitality sector, it's the airline sector. So we need to come up with a way that is going to support all of those sectors through this challenge. And that means credit support for four small, very small businesses, as as I mentioned to you, that $40,000 loan, for the next tier of businesses, which we've already announced, but also for the for the slightly larger businesses, those that are employing a large number of people and the largest businesses. So all of that is being worked on. We are very close to getting to conclusions on how we can be supportive. And the energy sector will be critical because there are so many people in Alberta, Saskatchewan, for example, that are finding themselves in extremely challenging situations because of the plummeting oil prices and the fact that COVID-19 is precluding them from actually being actively at work.

MG: You've said that this is a temporary issue and at some point in time this, too, will pass and we will be back into two better times. Have you begun to think at all about how we as a nation will pay for this?

BILL MORNEAU: The good news for Canada is that we came into this crisis with a very strong fiscal position that allows us to make the sorts of decisions that we're making to support people. Obviously, these decisions, these payments we're making to people do cost money, we will need to think about how we can sustain our economy afterwards. But I'm quite confident that in a situation that we're in, the right thing to do is to focus, to make sure that we have an economy when we come out of it. We can continue to grow our economy. And that, of course, is the only way that we can sustain the debt that we're racking up right now and find ourselves in a better situation in future. We do have the capacity to manage this. It will present us with challenges afterwards that are different than the ones we had before. And I think we should expect that. But now for me, is really the time to be supporting people, to be making sure that they have the capacity to support themselves and their families. And that's the key area of focus.

MG: And that support, just briefly. Is there any limit on the amount of money that your government is willing to spend to fight the economic fallout that from this virus?

BILL MORNEAU: What we've said is we'll do whatever it takes. You can see that the support right now for people through the emergency response benefit is for 16 weeks. We're obviously very hopeful that we get through this challenge in that period of time or less. We'll need to respond, though, to the issues as they come to us. And for that reason, I'm not going to put a limitation. We're going to try to be prudent. But first and foremost, people need to be able to have groceries. They need to be able to continue to live their lives. And we'll have to find new ways of working even during this time that allows us to have an economy that will function. All those things are very dynamic. But I want people to know that the government will be there to support them. The good news is we have the fiscal capacity to do that and we'll work with them. We'll work with provinces. We'll work with people across the country to make sure we can get through this.

MG: There's a lot going on. I really appreciate some of your time this morning, Bill Morneau, thank you.

BILL MORNEAU: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Bill Morneau is the federal finance minister. You know that this is top of mind for so many businesses across this country. Razor thin margins, keeping clients running a small business is always a big gamble. And many of those small businesses right now are at risk of folding. My next guests are trying to steer their businesses through this pandemic. Julia Fullerton is a barber in Regina John Sinopoli is partner and executive chef at Ascary HospitalityGgroup in Toronto, the lead organiser as well of SaveHospitality.ca. Good morning to you both.

JOHN SINOPOLI: Good morning.

JULIA FULLERTON: Good morning. Thanks for having me, Matt.

MG: Just very briefly, Julia, are you encouraged by what you heard from the finance minister?

Not in the least, actually, I didn't hear anything that was very applicable to myself and sole proprietors.

MG: John, for you?

JOHN SINOPOLI: No. I agree with Julia. It's more of the same tune. The measures currently ruled out are completely insufficient for businesses in the hospitality sector specifically, and I would believe small business in general.

MG: Okay, let's walk through that, Julia. You said that's for sole proprietors like yourself. There's nothing really there. Tell me about the situation you find yourself in. You're a barber. How's your business been affected by COVID-19?

JULIA FULLERTON: I myself chose to close doors on my business one week prior to being legislated shut provincially in an effort to help flatten or plank the curve here in Saskatchewan, I worked with a number of clients who are maybe on chemo radiation. I have a client who's had a double lung transplant and I took it into my own hands to help keep my community safe, believing fully that the government would be supportive of small business, as I had heard, was on the horizon. However, I've been at home without income for three weeks now, and Saskatchewan was a bit of a perfect storm, going through an economic crisis of its own. So it's been a bit disheartening to hear that, you know, the bank loans for 40K with a $10,000, you know, give back to companies. It's for people who are running a payroll of 50k plus, which I just don't have. Therefore, incorporated businesses, not sole proprietorships. And I don't actually have the liquidity to defer my debt to pay thousands of dollars on the back end without it really crippling my business.

MG: John, what about the hospitality sector? Restaurants are closed unless they can do takeout bars as well. And that has led to a lot of people being laid off. What were you hoping to hear from the government when it comes to your sector?

JOHN SINOPOLI: Well, we're hoping to hear a lot of things that specifically at the moment. We're hoping we hear about a industry specific cash stimulus. So the restaurant industry is unique in that our margins are very small. Our labour burden is extraordinarily high. In fact, it takes us double the number of employees to make a million dollars a year, as it does the next most labour intensive business, which is retail. Retail's about seven employees. Restaurant takes about 15 employees to make a billion dollars a year. So our bills are 95 percent of our income intake. That means all we have left is 5 percent on average. Giving us a 75 percent wage subsidy without any details to when it's going to start, without any detail as to how we're going to get that money back is just clueless in reality.

MG: How many people have you had to lay off?

JOHN SINOPOLI: Our company owns 97 people and our coalition of independent operators has about a thousand restaurants signed on, representing about over 55,000 laid off employees. That's a coalition that's come together in less than two weeks that grows by the day. And there's really only the tip of the iceberg in terms of laid off employees in the hospitality sector, which represents over a million employees.

MG: And so the finance minister I mean, they're trying to do this on the fly because everything is changing, as we were saying, day by day. And he said that within three to six weeks, this program will be ups, 75 percent of wages would be paid by the government, hoping that people wouldn't be laid off. Is that the kind of thing that will help in the long run?

JOHN SINOPOLI: As per your comment to the minister, where are we supposed to get the money in the meantime? We've already paid an entire payroll to our staff as we laid them off. And before that payroll we were at six percent revenue. So, you know, normally our labour costs are somewhere in the 35 percent range. So already, like, you know, if we're talking 35 percent of 50 percent of our revenue, like we use almost all of our cash just to make the final payroll, and then we're supposed to hire these people back with no money in our bank account to pay them for maybe one more payroll of 75 percent. Not knowing when and how the money will be returned to us by the federal government because all they've done is announce a plan. They have announced the plan but they have not said how they're going to do it.

MG: One of the things, Julia, that they announced was this emergency response benefit. That's $2m000. How could that help?

JULIA FULLERTON: Thank you for asking. So I have had done some looking at this. The CERB. And I would as a person be eligible for it, just like any other person in Canada who is not eligible for EI. But like the finance minister stated previously when you were speaking to him, it's expected to be spent on bills and personal expenses for the home. And people who are in a sole proprietorship situation are now being expected to service not just their personal finances and expenses, but the static expenses as small businesses as well, i.e. our rents on our buildings and any of the other costs associated with running a business. So that sounds not sustainable, really not a feasible plan to help sole proprietors out.

MG: So we're just about out of time, but for you Julia, can your business survive something like this? This seems like an existential kind of issue in some ways for so many small business.

JULIA FULLERTON: Honestly, I was previously running pretty tight margins. I guess the short answer is I don't know. I sure hope so. I'm going to work really hard to keep my doors open, but I've already made peace with the fact that I might not see another day in my salon.

MG: And John for the restaurant industry as a whole, just in a few seconds, how precarious is that situation right now?

JOHN SINOPOLI: It's catastrophic. If the current support for the government continues without any more bold moves like we've suggested on our Web site and with our plan, we're looking at a 50 to 70 percent collapse of our business, which would take down the entire supply chain with it as well.

MG: I wish you the best. Well, I wish you both the best of luck. This is a really difficult situation and everybody seems to be trying to piece it together and make it up as we go along. I hope you do okay. And I hope we have the chance to talk again. Thank you.

JOHN SINOPOLI: Thank you.

JULIA FULLERTON: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Fullerong is a barber in Regina. John Snopoli, executive chef and partner at Ascary Hospitality Group in Toronto and the lead organiser of SaveHospitality.ca. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I Matt Galloway. We're back in about six minutes time. Stay with us.

Prepping rural hospitals for COVID-19

Guests: Dr. Lois Bowdon, Dr. Mark Gracia, Dr. Sean Moore

MG: Good morning, I Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come. The message is space out or pay up. Police are ticketing people who disobey the guidance of physical distancing. We'll find out how effective that is, coming up. But first, the big hurdles for doctors working outside of Canada's big cities.

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MG: This is how every morning begins at the Valley Regional Hospital in Kentville, Nova Scotia. A staff huddle. Like everywhere, hospitals are preparing to be rocked by COVID-19. For smaller hospitals, though, outside of Canada's biggest cities, there are additional concerns, often fewer doctors and supplies. So joining me now are three emergency doctors to talk about what they are facing in their own communities. Dr. Lois Bowden is the head of emergency at Valley Regional. Dr. Sean Moore is the chief of emergency services for Lake of the Woods District Hospital in Kenora, Ontario. And Dr. Mark Gracia is an emergency room physician at the Penticton in Regional Hospital in British Columbia. Good morning to you all.

GUESTS: Good morning.

MG: Lois, we'll start with you. We just heard a few sounds from your hospital. How would you describe in a word or two what the last couple of weeks have been like?

DR. LOIS BOWDON: I think it's been an activity schedule of preparedness and organisation that I have not seen before in a career spanning several years. If you walk in to our emergency department this morning, there was a spotter at the door, a nurse with a mask. She will ask you a couple of screening questions. Depending on that, you will be directed to your door number one with respiratory symptoms, door number two if you're in for regular business, and around the corner if you have COVID symptoms. So it's this organisation and planning. And that I had seen most come on stream in the last two weeks.

MG: When you walk into the hospital for your shift, you work in the evenings this week, what's the feeling that you have as you walk through those doors?

DR. LOIS BOWDON: We have not had a lot of cases here in Nova Scotia yet, so we're in the lull that I expected. Two other physicians on the line have already passed. So we have this eerie calm where we are- There is a sea of blue green scrubs mismatched on people as they gather around, as we debrief from the day changeover to evening shift, we have some of our regular heart attacks that come in, chest pains, the twisted ankles. But we are all kind of a little on tenterhooks, a little restless, waiting for what we know is coming.

MG: Mark, let's talk about what's happening in Penticton and how has life changed in your hospital over the last couple of weeks?

DR. MARK GRACIA: It's about the same way that it has been in Kentville. We've physically separated our department into two sections. Physically put up a wall. And it's the same way we have greeters at the door that will lead COVID-related symptoms to one isolated area in our department. There's a little bit of anxiety. We do have the self huddles in the morning as well. Discuss who will be working on what side, what our roles are going to be. And there's just a general sense of anxiety. We are also in that lull and quiet before the storm where we do feel the storm lapping at our shores, if you will. We are getting trickling in of numerous highly suspected COVID patients, and we're not yet at the phase where we're having to ventilate a lot of patients, but that is around the corner. So we're looking anxiously ahead and hoping that we have prepared well enough.

MG: Well, I want to talk more about this in depth in a few minutes. But just from your perspective, Mark, what are the concerns that you have in your community that they may not have an in larger cities?

DR. MARK GRACIA: Well, in larger cities, they had better access to testing, which we did not have readily here. And a lot of the test samples had to be kind of separated and then sent off to Kelowna for initial testing, and then that had to go to the secondary BC CDC lab. And so there was a lot of people that were complaining about testing availability here locally, and a lot of people were coming into our emerg wanting to be tested initially when their symptoms were mild. And so we've had to turn away quite a few patients because of that.

MG: Sean Moore, tell us what life is like in your hospital in Kenora. How big is it?

DR. SEAN MOORE: Kenora is 15,000 people and we serve a number of First Nations reserves around the immediate area. We have had the same lull for about the past three weeks. And and our issue has been that we don't know what we've seen for COVID. Our turnaround time, because we have to get our samples down to Toronto, has been exceedingly long, from seven to 14 days. Most recently in last couple of days, it's been up to 14 days. So we have no idea if we are seeing covered patients or not. And so we're having to take the appropriate action by wearing appropriate PPE. Possibly some of that is precautionary, but at this point, we know with all of the surrounding areas starting to see COVID patients and having patients admitted that there's some in the mix.

MG: Do you have the supplies and the people that you need? You mentioned PPE, the personal protective equipment. Do you have what you need as that number of cold cases gets set to increase?

DR. SEAN MOORE: Well, from what form all of our stockpiles that we've checked in and counted and meticulously tried to assign and have available, I think that we do for the time being. But in speaking with my colleagues down in southern Ontario and Quebec, who are due to run out very shortly, we can only hope that the supply chain is in place soon enough. With companies having changed over to producing PPE very quickly and with the government trying to get, frantically, trying to get enough PPE to supply all of us, we hope that that's all in place over the coming weeks when our cases start coming in. It's already a deluge back in in southern Ontario. And so we know that they need it first. We have we have some supplies and I think that we're okay, but all of these preparations can change drastically as soon as the cases start multiplying.

MG: Lois, does what Sean is saying sound familiar just in terms of the disparity, the difference between what people in those big cities and in the hospitals, in the big cities, may have compared to where you're at.

DR. LOIS BOWDON: So we are an hour outside Halifax. We have three runs a day for our testing for our Swabs. And we are down to kind of 12, 14 hours to get our swab results. So we do not have the distance factor with that. With regards to PPE, I'm confident that at this point in time we have enough for where we are now. Our health authorities actually been tremendously transparent with us and kept us very well informed with where we are, what we have and sent around a photo the other night on the daily bulletin of the warehouse full of supplies. So that's the kind of thing that messaging that I think is important for those of us on the frontline to hear from the people that have the supply chain.

MG: You talked about the three doors and door number three hanging that if you have symptoms for COVID-19, you're sent around the corner. Around the corner, you created this with this makeshift COVID unit.

DR. LOIS BOWDON: Yes. So you go, actually, walk out of our emergency department. You come in a second separate door into the hospital that is cordoned off. And we moved out our cardiac investigation unit and a blood collection. And we have created what we have a secondary assessment centre. This has been a provincial organised, planned primary assessment centres or swabs in the community and screening. If you need rehydration, fluids, bloodwork, chest X-ray, you go to this COVID secondary assessment centre and that is physically outside our department. You will be seen there if you're COVID positive. You can cohort people in the same room. If your swab is pending or we're not entirely sure yet, you have to be isolated from other people in that same category. And then we move back to the emergency department where we put all our usual coughs and colds in the respiratory corridor. And as I said, the other pieces is in the secondary centre. After six hours are deemed, you need to be admitted. You would move over to our COVID ward in the hospital.

MG: That's a lot of change all at the same time. You have to be pretty resourceful to kind of figure out how to make this happen.

DR. LOIS BOWDON: It has been amazing. I've been so impressed with the ingenuity and the creativity of the people at our site and indeed throughout the whole Nova Scotia Health Authority. The corridor where we have put our secondary assessment centre had to be walled off because part of the corridor still had other patient care for the hospital. So we had to put up a plastic wall between the two sections. But this is also a fire route. You know, God forbid we ever had a fire while this was all going on as well. So we had to put a zipper in the plastic wall that you could actually get out. So that's the kind of thinking that you don't realise until you actually start to do the work.

MG: But you were smiling. I could hear the smile in your voice as you as you kind of celebrated what people have been able to do in this crisis. And there's not a lot to smile about when, you know, we're in the midst of a pandemic. What gives you some sense of optimism and some sense of, I don't know, a sense of agency in a situation where we don't have a lot of control right now?

DR. LOIS BOWDON: So I think there is a coordinated effort that we have also heard of from higher up. A few years ago, we were nine health authorities and we re-amalgamated into this one. And so we have had central direction that has helped us. We have provincial pre-printed orders. We have incident management teams that are stepped up in an organised layer that we have never felt here at Valley Regional that we're on our own, that Flying Rogue, that we don't know what we're doing. There's people that are there to answer questions for us that are phenomenally resourced. And then we plug in our local at patients to our geography, to our building, et cetera.

MG: Dr. Gracia, for you, what are the resources from your perspective that perhaps bigger hospitals might have, hospitals in larger cities, larger regions might have that you may not or that you're still waiting for?

DR. MARK GRACIA: So right now, the PPE is also first in forefront. We are seemingly running a little bit low from our point of view. I'm not sure what our actual stockpiles are, but we are looking forward to leaders that are working on procurement to try to increase how many masks we will eventually get in our department locally. When we come on shift, we are given one surgical mask and we have access to one N95 should we have a patients that have aerosol generating procedures that need to be performed and those masks would have to be reused. And at the end of the day, we are working on ways to improvise and to look at ways of recycling these masks. We're going to start collecting the masks at the end of the day. And trying to, like I said, recycle them. Try to see if we can bake them at low temperature to kill off the virus so that we can actually re-use the masks and not run critically low.

MG: Can I just stop you there before something like this happened? Would you ever have had to consider the idea - not just of having one mask for the shift - but having to to bake it, to re-use it for the next day?

DR. MARK GRACIA: Absolutely not. No. This is very unique. This pandemic is really stretching all our resources to the max. And all the people are seeing what has happened in bigger centres before us that are falling that thought that they were well prepared. And so we are looking ahead and trying to see what else we can do so that we do not run critically low on supplies like other centres did.

MG: But when you say you have to improvise, what is that like? You're in the midst of a crisis, perhaps that's if it's not manifesting itself right now, it's, you know, around you, certainly. And then you're forced to to improvise. What is that like to be in the middle of?

DR. MARK GRACIA: It's definitely a moving target. It does create a little bit of apprehension. But at the end of the day, we're finding that a lot of brains working together can find solutions. And so these are potential solutions that we're looking at right now. So we'll get through it, hopefully.

MG: Sean, are you finding that you're also improvising in this situation?

DR. SEAN MOORE: Oh, yeah. One of the major things that we're doing all the time is trying to evaluate the literature and try to evaluate rumour and sort out which is which for- first, for masks, for example. We've gone all over the place and trying to figure out the best way to approach this, because nobody really knows. There's an article coming out in JAMA to suggest that the proper distancing between two people should be somewhere around 23 feet. And we've been working on the premise that it was six feet. We're all sort of thinking about masks of being protection for the caretakers when surgical masks were designed to protect the patients. And we're also trying to figure out, should people be wearing masks outside again to protect other people, not to protect themselves. So these things are really evolving quickly and we have to rely on each other. And one of the places where we go for information is our medical associations. So the Canadian forces and emergency physicians had a town hall last night where we discussed various aspects of those things. But the other part that's a moving target is we don't know how to take care of patients like this that are the most vulnerable. And in our community, where there's a lot of poverty, there's a lot of homelessness, there's a lot of addictions and drug abuse, we have an imperative to try to sort out what to do for those patients. And again, we're going by the seat of our pants where we're hanging on, but we can't really figure out the best way to do things. We've got our homeless shelter now moving to our hockey rink. And again, how we set that up and how we make it safe and comfortable. And hopefully the least likely that people will get infections is really unknown.

MG: How difficult has it been for you to move forward on the physical distancing piece in your community, Sean? There's a couple of different elements to that. One, as you mentioned. The first nations that are around Kenora that you service, but also the fact that Kenora is is a place where people, it's beautiful people often call cottage country. And people will come up and have their residential places in the inner city and then perhaps a weekend place or summer places.

DR. SEAN MOORE: Yes. And that's that has posed some difficulties for us as a cottage city. We have a lot of people that come in and out and we have a lot of people that spend their entire summers here and we welcome them and we want them to be here. But right now, we're so challenged with getting our things together for COVID in terms of having the right protocols in place, et cetera, that a small uptake in our emergency department census really puts us over the top. We can't afford to have more people to take care of. And when people come down to cottage country and open up their cabins every year, we have a reproducible influx of patients to the emergency department with injuries, et cetera, and we don't want to put them at risk either.

MG: What are you saying to those people? Because you could imagine they may want to get out of the place that they're in. Maybe there's more space for them to be isolated at the cabin.

DR. SEAN MOORE: Well, what we're saying is, is please stay where your doctor is. Stay where you have care with specialists, etc. When people come down to Kenora, they don't necessarily understand that we don't have a cardiologist. We don't have a pediatrician. And to be able to service the needs for regular medical problems as well as injuries, it's a different kind of service that we can offer. So we want them to stay back and give us a chance to get everything in order and wait for this to pass. I know that's a hard thing for people to understand because, like you say, they may have a cabin that is quite isolated and they could feel that they could isolate, but they also have to get supplies. And we have supplies that are low. And I know in the surrounding areas coming in from Winnipeg to Canada, there are stores that run out of supplies in in the smaller places like Falcon Lake. And they're saying we don't know what to do because all of the cottagers are coming to us as well. And we're trying to keep everything safe so that the community itself can stock up appropriately every two weeks or so.

MG: Dr. Gracia, can I ask you just a bit about testing? You wrote a post on Facebook and it said, don't rush to get tested. Why did you write that?

DR. SEAN MOORE: The reason I wrote it is because a lot of patients were coming in. They had been calling 811, had been advised that they don't really require a test and they'd come into the emerg wanting a second opinion and wanting to be tested. So with COVID, it's a horrible disease and people have a fear of this naturally, and because of the fear, people want to know that they are not infectious to other people. And so they want to come in and know that they are negative for the disease. And this test is exactly not good at telling people that they don't have the disease. It has a low sensitivity anywhere between maybe 60 and 80 per cent, depending on the type of tests that you're using. And to put that into perspective, if you have 100 people that are positive with COVID, that we know have the disease, and we test them all, between 20 and 40 of them will actually test falsely negative. So if I went to a grocery store and the scanner was wrong on every fourth or fifth item that I was putting true into my bag, I would definitely not trust the scanner. And this is what people are relying on with our test. The test is not very good to tell them that they don't have the disease. And I'm afraid that if they test negative falsely, that they will prematurely come out of isolation and perhaps inadvertently continue to spread the disease. So it's pretty concerning in my mind.

MG: Lois, do you have the same concerns around testing, whether the testing is actually being done, whether there are enough tests or two? To Dr. Gracia's point that the test doesn't tell the whole story?

DR. LOIS BOWDON: I think in medicine we always work with the false negatives and false positives, and that's a function of our capacity and our technology. I think we try to minimise that in here in Nova Scotia, we have tried to test the appropriate people who screened in that should be tested. If our pre-screening group is appropriate, I think our testing gives us best results as we can hope for.

MG: This is such a difficult situation for everybody and those on the front lines are feeling it the most. But but all of us are experiencing it in some way. And Lois, you're kind of getting this in a couple of different ways, in part because you also own a pub.

DR. LOIS BOWDON: I do. [Unintelligible]we've had it for eleven years and we have had to close as other places. And it's really hard to see that, again, that personal involvement with the people that we work there, care about and how this hit them as well on the frontline, not just in my medical work, but in my community.

MG: What kind of perspective, a different perspective, does that give you? Because you would see it again from one place in the hospital but you see it from another angle as well.

DR. LOIS BOWDON: And it becomes much more personal when- I mean, you can read the story that a restaurant has closed or a business has had to close. But again, it's that personal connection when you know, when I know that Pam and Kelly are not working these weeks and that, you know, Brandon is not in the kitchen anymore. You know, those are the pieces that make it this very, very real and not just numbers.

MG: You were all there in the emergency department and you were all facing a similar situation in some ways waiting for something to happen. I'm wondering whether you have words for each other. And, Lois, what you would say to your fellow emergency room physicians about the situation that they find themselves in.

DR. LOIS BOWDON: So I would say there is some simple things. Put your cell phone in a Ziploc bag, use a cell phone to speak to a patient so you don't have to put more PPE on and go back into the room. Wear a hairband and use hairspray so your hair isn't in your face and your reflexesly touching your face. And throughout it all, somebody asked me the other day if I was scared and I said, yes I am. But as I have thought about that question the last couple of days, my new feeling is that throughout this preparedness and organisation we have been through in the last crazy two weeks, there's actually a resilience and a courage that comes out of this preparation. And that's what I take forward every day I go into work now.

MG: Dr. Moore, what would you say to your fellow physicians on the line and others who are listening about the situation that you all find ourselves in?

DR. SEAN MOORE: Some words that come back to me or those from a colleague named Chris Hicks in Toronto and Allen Drummond in Perth, that I'm glad that we have the quality of physician, emergency physicians in particular, in Canada to be able to deal with this. We are well-trained. Our emergency doctors in our rural areas are fantastically resourceful and can do this, that we can get through this together. And I think that we just need to take a deep breath and get ready for things to turn unfold over the next coming weeks. I know that this will pass and that we will get through it, but that we have to stick together, we have to try to work with our other colleagues, our nurses, our housekeeping, our clerks, and that we have to stick together through all of this sector.

MG: Dr. Gracia, to you.

DR. MARK GRACIA: I would say about the same thing. We are all scared. We are scared for ourselves, for our families, for our patients, for our colleagues and for our community. But this is something that will pass. Hang in there. Stay safe and pass on any information that comes around. Thank you very much.

MG: I think it's interesting for a doctor to say that they're scared.

DR. MARK GRACIA: It's not something that we saw that we would feel right. We're not used to something potentially affecting us to this extent. We're used to the patients having the disease and the illnesses. We're not used to ourselves potentially being affected as well. So, yes, this is new for most of us.

MG: And Lois, what are you going to say?

DR. LOIS BOWDON: I think we're still real people underneath that all. And we like being in control, most of us physicians, are not always in control every day right now.

MG: You know, the people I was out walking last night and it was interesting, at 7:30 in the evening, people in my neighbourhood were banging pots and pans and cheering on healthcare workers. And that was directed at people like yourself who read on those front lines. Thanks for the work that you're doing.

DR. MARK GRACIA: Thank you, Matt.

DR. SEAN MOORE: Thank you.

DR. LOIS BOWDON: Thank you for your interest.

MG: It's great to talk to you all. Dr. Mark Gracia is an emergency room physician at Penticton Regional Hospital in British Columbia. Dr. Lois Bowdon is an emergency physician in Kentbille, Nova Scotia. And Dr. Sean Moore is chief of emergency services for Lake of the Woods District Hospital in Kenora, Ontario. We'd love to hear from other health care workers, people in small towns in particular. It's interesting to hear what these doctors are up against. Your experiences would be welcome to get your comments. You can reach us through the Web site, cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link. In about 90 seconds time, we will speak about what's happening behind bars to those locked in Canada's prisons and the threat of a new killer behind bars. What the spread of the coronavirus could mean for those in jail. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We'll be right back.

Releasing some prison inmates is key to reducing COVID-19 spread, say advocates, Lockdown enforcement

Guests: Jarrod Shook, El Jones, Dan Kinsella

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. For people serving time in Canada's prison system. There is a growing fear that punishments could soon turn into death sentences. Even before the novel coronavirus, prisons have often been considered petri dishes for infectious diseases. And already, we've seen prisons around the world, including here at home, suffer outbreaks of the virus. It's led to incarcerated people, advocates and politicians all calling for different solutions. Adam Zinger is an inmate at the Springhill Correctional Facility in Nova Scotia.

SOUNDCLIP

ADAM ZINGER: None of the inmates is sick and the inmates won't get sick until it comes from the outside. But once it gets in here, it's going to spread. Probably a lot of guys in here that won't make it. People have lots of desperate problems in here. People have been... drug abuse for most of their life. They come in here and try to get clean or whatever. But the damage is done, right? There's old people in here, like people that are doing life. People with sleep apnea. They're on machines. The facility itself, if everybody got sick and here, at once, there's no way that they'd be able to help us all.

MG: That's the view from one prisoner on the inside. Jarrod Shook was recently released from a correctional facility in Ontario. He's at a halfway house in Kitchener, Ontario. Jarrod, good morning.

JARROD SHOOK: Good morning.

MG: You got out of prison in March. How aware were you of COVID-19 when you were still on the inside?

JARROD SHOOK: Well, to be honest, we do have TVs inside. And obviously the COVID-19 pandemic has dominated the news cycle for quite a while. So obviously, we knew what was happening outside. But as far as the sense of the reality of it inside, we really weren't sure what to expect. We really didn't know what could be coming. And people just didn't really seem overly concerned about it up to the point that I had left. And that includes correctional staff and prisoners. But obviously, the sense of watching CNN or CBC. Clearly, it was a concern.

MG: How much fear is there? We just heard from Adam Zinger about the sense of being vulnerable in some ways. You're just waiting for it to arrive from the outside. How much fear is in there right now around this?

JARROD SHOOK: Well, I mean, I can only speculate because I'm not there at current, but I do speak to people who are. And certainly fears are heightened. There's nowhere to go. Right. You have a cell, you're stuck in a cell or you're stuck in a range. You're forced to cohabitate with people, whether they're sick or whether they're not. And I'm sure they're taking some precautions if somebody does show symptoms, but at the end of the day, people are going to be fearful of one another. They're going to direct their anger quite possibly towards people who hold the key. And also, just internalizing that fear is negative for their own mental health. So that obviously usually expresses itself in quite unhealthy ways.

MG: Tell me more about that idea that there's nowhere to go. Most of us don't know what life is like on the inside. Can you do what people have been guiding when it comes to physical distancing being spread out in that area?

JARROD SHOOK: Well, first, I would say that I think now people have more of a sense than they might have ever had about what it might be like to be forced to stay within a certain geographic space that's relatively confined to, obviously people for the most part or in the comfort of their own homes right now. But just the idea that there really is nowhere to go because you did want to leave your house so you would be socially disapproved of for doing so. But as far as inside, like it's not like, I mean, I think the worst case scenario is for those who are double bunked. And again, I haven't been there for a few weeks, so I don't know what measures they've taken in the interim. But a good percentage of the prison population in Canada lives two prisoners in a cell designed for one. So you're talking about a six by nine. That's a room of the size of your smallest bathroom where two people sometimes can barely even walk one end of the cell to the other without bumping into each other, actually. It's certainly the case that that is not possible. So in a situation like that, I mean, the idea that you can socially distance yourself, the only social distance that exists in the prison is the social distance between the public and prisoners, unfortunately.

MG: That has led to calls for people to look at ways to depopulate some of these prisons. I want to bring El Jones into the conversation, journalist, prison reform advocate, former poet laureate. She's in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where steps have been taken to depopulate prisons across that province. El, good morning to you.

EL JONES: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How is this working? What's happening in Nova Scotia, in the prisons there, as I was saying, depopulate some of those facilities.

EL JONES: So we're talking about two different systems. First of all, so federal and then provincially. So there has been some success in getting people out provincially and largely because many people are on remand. So people may not realise that two thirds of the provincial prison system is actually people that have not been convicted of anything. They're just waiting for trial. So there was a big push to get those people out if they hadn't been convicted and then also push on people that can be seen as low risk, people near the end of their sentences. Of course, people in intimate intensive that people that are just going into the weekend. So because there's so much more in and out in a potential jail, it's also more dangerous. But there's also many more people that are already, can go into the community. So there's been quite a large number released. But that doesn't mean that everybody is safe because a large number of people have been released.

MG: What about in the federal institutions?

EL JONES: So this is the push and this is what Jarrod is talking about. It's only on Monday or Tuesday that Bill Blair has now started talking about those efforts? So that's everybody serving sentences of more than two years and people that are very scared. It's the staff that's going to be bringing in the virus when that happens. One of the things that somebody said to me is, you know, when you're at the mercy of people who can use their authority over you everyday, people who can pepper spray, people who can place you into isolation, that now these people are responsible for your well-being. How are you supposed to trust that they're the ones that can keep you healthy? And I think that was a really important comment because of the power difference here. We're also talking about people that are completely dependent, not just the environment, but also people don't know if they'll get ventilators. They don't know how they're going to get to the hospital. The health care system at the best time is completely inadequate in a prison. And now people feel like sitting ducks. They're just sitting there. And if this virus spread, they feel like they've been left to die.

MG: Bill Blair, you mentioned him, had asked parole boards to consider early release for some federal inmates to mitigate the risk. How do you go about doing that? How do you assess who is appropriate for that kind of release?

EL JONES: Well, that assessment obviously would come at the level of the officials, people's parole officers, the people working with people. But I think what also- I want sort of back up on that question, because I think we're also moving with the assumption a lot of people somehow seem to believe that prisons keep us really safe. And so we need to keep all these people here because they're full of, you know, what we see on crime shows. Everyone's a serial killer and everybody's a serial rapist. So, you know, if we open the doors, these people are going to be running our streets. And that's just not simply true for the picture of who is actually incarcerated.

MG: But, you know that there are a lot of people listening who would say people who are in jail are paying for their crimes and the jail is where they belong. And that this is an issue of public safety.

JARROD SHOOK: Can I get in on that question?

MG: Yes, Jarrod. Go ahead.

JARROD SHOOK: Sorry, I mean, I think one of the ways to look at that question is just to consider the very fact that it is Bill Blair, who is actually contacting the Correctional Services Canada and the parole board to seek alternative measures to get people out who can be released as soon as possible. And you've got to recognise the gravity of that. I mean, he's a former police chief of Toronto, correct? And so now he's seeking to have people who more than likely, through his own investigations, had been sent to prison to be released. Canada is on lockdown. The economy has been stuck, brought to its knees. Like we are in unique times. And so I don't even think falling back on the logistical side of it is fair in times like this, because it's pretty clear that if emergency measures need to be taken, they can be taken and they ought to be taken for health reasons.

MG: El Jones.

EL JONES: Yes, I agree with that, that's a great point that what we have to understand is the health of everybody in these communities is only as safe as the health of the weakest institution. So when we allow infection to spread in prisons under the idea that that is somehow safe. That is not safe. Correctional staff go in and out of those facilities. They can carry the infection in and they can carry it out and back to their families. And there's no way of stopping that. We're seeing what's happened on Rikers Island, where we have what is it, almost 200 correctional staff that have been infected and prisoners of digging mass graves. That is simply not safe. So it's not about keeping people safe. This idea that people, keeping people in prison even now, will somehow protect our communities. It protects our communities to make sure that we're not spreading infection. That is a public health issue. We've seen precedent for this in the past when there was flu epidemics, when, and we're going back in history, but we have seen these kind of releases through history with the understanding of it does not keep anybody safe. So if we believe in public safety, if we believe in this idea that our main thing in prison is making sure that people aren't harmed in communities, then it actually makes much more sense to release now, before we see these infections really spread and it spreads to the family of corrections staff of people that are getting out. Anyway, there's so much go back and forth between the prison and community, clean food that goes in and out. We just cannot keep our community safe through believing that incarceration going to the solution at this time.

MG: Jarrod, you got out in March. Would you have been somebody who qualified for this sort of early release, do you think?

JARROD SHOOK: To be honest, I really can't say. I would speculate, no. However, I did reach my statutory release date, so they had to release me in. Like I said, I'm currently in a halfway house.

MG: And are there steps that have been taken in the halfway house to make sure that there is the opportunity for physical distancing? That that there isn't the chance that this could spread?

JARROD SHOOK: I can't speak for every single halfway house in Ontario. I can speak for this one that some measures have been taken. Yes. They've actually let a few individuals leave the halfway house and go out onto a temporary form of parole or receive full parole so they can accommodate everybody in this halfway house in a single room. But I mean, the reality is we are still all living within this house and there is still a degree of interaction and a degree of, I guess, entrance and exit from the halfway house as well. That could place people at risk in the future. They've taken precautions and they've given us hand sanitizer, and they've put some tape on the floor in different spaces where we tend to cohabitate during meals so that we keep a certain amount of distance from each other and a certain amount of distance from the staff at the front desk if you need to take your medication or sign out. So, I mean, I certainly couldn't say that they haven't taken any steps, but I would say that men here are definitely still concerned.

MG: It's good to speak with you both about this. Thank you.

JARROD SHOOK: Thanks for having me.

MG: El Jones is a prison reform advocate, former poet laureate in Nova Scotia. Jarrod Shook is in a halfway house, which is where we reached him in Kitchener, Ontario. Across North America. There is a push to keep this pandemic out of prisons. El mentioned in New York, where Rikers Island has become a real hotspot, but also in Los Angeles and Cleveland, they are releasing so-called low-risk inmates and the province of Ontario is moving to do the same. Dr. Claire Bodkin is a resident physician at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario. She researches public prison health as well. Claire, good morning to you.

CLAIRE BODKIN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: If you take a look at populations that are incarcerated, that are behind bars. What would make them more susceptible to something like COVID-19?

CLAIRE BODKIN: That's a great question. I think in general, we know that the health status of people who are incarcerated is much, much worse than people in the general population. That's true globally. And we also have data to support that here in Canada. And some of those specific things with respect to COVID-19 that I'm particularly worried about, there's a high rate of respiratory illnesses. So things like chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, or COPD, and a high rate of cardiovascular disease and hypertension, which we know and those are both associated with more severe COVID-19 infections and worse outcomes. So that's one thing. The other thing that we know is that there's a very, very high prevalence of mental health concerns and people who are incarcerated. So depression, anxiety, psychosis, all of those things are at a much higher rate amongst people in prison. And so the move to manage this through lockdowns and the fear that I think many of us are feeling in the community, I suspect will have an even greater impact on this population.

MG: Jarrod mentioned the impossibility of physical distancing. The other part of that is, is just the opportunity to wash your hands. Here, there's a scramble to get hand sanitizer. People are trying to get it. That's not available in prisons, right?

CLAIRE BODKIN: No. And I think, you know, to El's point that we're talking about different system, but important to keep in mind in Canada. So each province and territory has their own system for folks serving less than two years. And then we have the federal system. But what we're hearing from many different institutions is that enough soap to wash your hands is not available sometimes. No soap is available. And so that very basic measure that Dr. Theresa Tam and all of our medical officers of health are saying, you know, wash your hands, wash your hands, wash your hands isn't actually possible for people. And then hand sanitizer because of the alcohol content of contraband. So that is generally not available. So the things that all of our public health officials are asking us to do to keep us safe really aren't available to people in prison.

MG: If somebody were to get seriously ill with COVID-19 while they were in prison. Do you think that they would be sent to hospital to receive medical attention?

CLAIRE BODKIN: So I would hope so. And that is certainly the expectation. I think the other thing that I'm seeing as a physician, is that our health care system and our hospitals are really worried about being overwhelmed. So I think we need to really think about that part of our responsibility to make sure that this doesn't spread in prison is also to make sure that there aren't a lot of seriously ill people that are then expected to be transferred to hospitals, which we know are worried about running out of ICU bed, we know are worried about their capacity. So I really think when we talk about flattening the curve so we don't overwhelm whole systems, that includes prisons. These people who are incarcerated, they're not going to stay for their ICU-level care in prison. they will need to be transferred. But that assumes that there's space in the health system and capacity in the health system for that to happen.

MG: Do prisons generally have kind of emergency plans for pandemics like this? Is that your understanding?

CLAIRE BODKIN: Yes. So that is my understanding. So, you know, prisons have had to confront SARS and the H1N1 outbreak. So they do all have, as far as I know, pandemic plans, again, with the caveat that it's a number of different systems across the country. And so they have plans. Now, whether these plans are sufficient and adoptable for COVID-19, I think is is a real question. And I'm certainly I'm deeply concerned that based on the limitations of prisons and the inability to practise social distancing and the higher rates of underlying co-morbidities and people who are in prison, that those plans really just won't be sufficient.

MG: Is your sense that society is concerned about this? We're all taking on the issues that this pandemic presents. But to Jarrod's point, and in some ways, you lock somebody up and it's out of sight, out of mind for for a lot of people that we don't think about what life is like behind bars because we're not behind bars. Are we thinking enough about how this pandemic will impact those who are truly held captive?

CLAIRE BODKIN: So I don't think we're thinking enough about it, although I will say that, you know, to Jarrod's point about Bill Blair saying, you know, we need to get people out of prisons, like I'm not sure that I ever thought I would see the day that that would happen. So I think that there is some movement and I'm heartened to see that. But I don't think there's enough and I don't think it's fast enough. I think one of the things we're really learning is that it's the actions we took two weeks ago that influences what the outbreak looks like today. And so that sense of urgency in a congregate setting like a prison is so important. And I don't think that we are concerned enough about this. And I think that, well, I worry that it's going to be, you know, hindsight being 20/20 about what we should have done.

MG: And so briefly, then, what could we have done or what could we still do now?

CLAIRE BODKIN: So I think the number one thing is de-populating prisons. And I think that both include who's coming into prison and who's leaving prison. So really coming up with any possible way of preventing people from coming into prison. And that's one of the things I worry about when I hear that, you know, we're threatening jail for people who break quarantine orders and that kind of thing. Like, I really think we need to be doing everything in our power to keep people from going into prison. And then people who are in prison looking at every available mechanism to get them out of there to de-populate. So pushing hard on that work. And then coupled with that is, you know, getting rid of double bunking, like, can we get enough people out that everybody has their own bunk and making sure that people have access to cell phones or iPads or whatever it is that they can contact their family and friends on the outside and have that connection, which we know that social connection is so important for people's mental health and ability to cope with this crisis. And then, you know, putting into place the pandemic plan, making sure people had access to the basics, like, enough soap to wash your hands, appropriate personal protective equipment for people working in jail or prison. All of those sorts of things.

MG: Dr. Bodkin, it's good to talk to you about this. Thank you.

CLAIRE BODKIN: Thanks so much for having me on, Matt.

MG: Dr. Claire Bodkin, resident physician at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario. We did request comment on this story from Correctional Service of Canada. We did not hear back by airtime. With cases of COVID- 19 increasing by the day. Some municipalities, as Claire mentioned, are tightening regulations in an effort to stop the spread in some provinces, including Ontario, Quebec, in Nova Scotia. Police are starting to give out hefty fines to those who aren't following the rules. And officers in Nova Scotia have given out some tickets already. Tickets holding fines close to $700. Dan Kinsella is the chief of Halifax Regional Police Chief. Good morning.

DAN KINSELLA: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. How many tickets have you given at thus far?

DAN KINSELLA: We've given out seven since the state of emergency was declared here in Nova Scotia. And we continue to take the approach where education is are our best method. But we've done that now for just over two weeks and we've recently moved into the enforcement area as necessary.

MG: Now, what would somebody get a ticket for?

DAN KINSELLA: Well, there's a number of things that possibly apply. And there's two specific acts that we deal with. It's the Health Protection Act and the Emergency Management Act. And Health Protection Act covers things like social distancing and those kind of things and not obeying those kind of regulations that have been put in place by health. And then there's the Emergency Management Act, which, you know, covers things like staying out of a prohibited area. And we've had a number of violations in that area. And the real reason is, is just to prevent people from congregating and and taking that opportunity away. So, you know, people don't get invited into situations where they may be congregating.

MG: That seems fairly obvious. Somebody, you know, jumping a fence or sliding under a wire to get into a basketball court or something. But the physical distancing piece, I think is a bit more complex. How do you make sure that somebody is actually breaking the rules? How do your officers go about figuring that out?

DAN KINSELLA: Well, I think, you know, really most of it's visual, but all of these interactions between the police and individuals who may be in violation begins with a conversation. And the conversation is, you know, if they're within the physical distancing of 6 feet, you know, we're not talking within inches or whatever, generally speaking, people it's very clear when they're right up against each other or clearly within six feet distance. And initially when this started, we had officers driving around in their vehicles, using their loudhailers to remind people because in early days, people were still congregating, walking together. And for the most people part, people complied and did the separation. So really, it's a visual evaluation to start. And then we go from there.

MG: We've heard from police unions about concerns that the officers they represent aren't actually protected when they're trying to do that. You can't issue a ticket generally to somebody and still be physically distancing. Hard to hand a ticket over to somebody from six feet away. How do you ensure that your officers are protected?

DAN KINSELLA: Well, certainly we've had a big education piece internally with the officers and we continue to reinforce all of the aspects of protection. All of the officers are issued with personal protection equipment to enable them in those situations where they believe they may be dealing with a COVID situation put on masks and gloves and coveralls even if needed. All those kind of things. We have glasses issued to all the officers so their eyes are protected. And those are situations that, you know, officers evaluate every day. And what they're looking for is individuals who may be exhibiting signs of of COVID symptoms and again, starts all over the conversation. Are you feeling well today? Do you have any symptoms? It's these kind of conversations that happen. There are occasions, clearly because of the nature of the work that the men and women have to do in law enforcement, where the gap has to be closed and they have to move in and take some sort of action. So they try to take every single precaution. There are some inherent dangers in law enforcement and we do our very best collectively to make sure that the officers are well equipped and they obviously are well-trained and then they take it from there.

MG: As chief, you apologized to the black community in your city for street checks in November of last year. In Halifax, I mean, people across the country will know is a city that has experienced real tension between police and racialized communities. There are concerns from some members of those communities that this is additional pressure, that this could be street checks in a different fashion. What do you do to ensure that the enforcement doesn't blur in to the harassment of vulnerable people?

DAN KINSELLA: Well, I think first and foremost, this is a community problem here in Halifax. It's a provincial problem in Nova Scotia. And quite frankly, it's a worldwide problem and challenge, certainly. And I recognise that, you know, it's difficult for all individuals to practise the social distancing and the not congregating in groups and self-isolation. But the most important thing, I think, is that we have to go through some short term sacrifice for some long term community gain. And that's been the message from the highest levels of government. It's been the message from the highest levels of health. We have taken a very measured approach. That's why we started with education. We're looking for compliance and then we move forward from there. There is no correlation between us trying to ensure public safety through education on health issues that are coming from experts. So they're not coming from the police. We're just transmitting and being the conduit for the message. So we'll continue to do that in an effort to make sure that we can help the community really help themselves. And one of the messages that I've put out there regularly is we need people to help us help them. So my message is we need you to help us help you. And we'll continue to do that. We're not looking to, the enforcement piece is not our main concern. It's the compliance piece for public safety that we're really looking to get the message across.

MG: So in the last minute or so, why do you think people still aren't getting it? You see this it's spring. And I get the people are out and they're enjoying themselves. But why aren't people getting the message?

DAN KINSELLA: Well, I think, you know, the vast majority people are doing what they're being asked to do. There are a few that are still taking very, very unnecessary risks. And, you know, the mindset and how they arrive there, it's very difficult to to understand. I think if if people are looking at the larger picture, looking at the common good and applying some common sense approaches, that they will comply and will continue to send that messaging in an effort to help people get there. And that's really what it's about. We really want people to stop taking those unnecessary risks and we want them to educate themselves on what their responsibility are and, really, what the expectations are of the community.

MG: And your sense is that that $700 fine, if people aren't getting it before, that will change their minds?

DAN KINSELLA: Well, we're hoping sometimes people need a little nudge to change behaviour. And really it's, you know, a specific deterrent for individuals that might get a summary offence ticket. But in a general sense, people know that this is a serious situation and we all need to abide by the rules.

MG: Dan Kinsella, good to speak with you. Stay healthy.

DAN KINSELLA: Thank you, Matt. Appreciate it.

MG: Dan Kinsella is the chief of the Halifax Regional Police. CBC News is next. And then what is the role of the opposition at a time when the government wants its supports and wants everybody to be on the same page? The leader of the Conservative Party, Andrew Scheer, will be my guest. Coming up in about six minutes time. Lots to talk to him about. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to an extended edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. We're back. Stay with us.

Conservative leader Andrew Scheer on the Opposition's role during the pandemic, Rosemary McCarney

Guests: Andrew Scheer, Rosemary McCarney

MG: Good morning, I Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come this morning, the struggle to isolate without a home. We'll look at how this pandemic is affecting refugees. But first, Canada's leader of the opposition.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Canada hasn't seen this type of civic mobilization since the Second World War. These are the biggest economic measures in our lifetimes to defeat a threat to our health. These historic measures will support Canadians to stay home to defeat COVID-19.

MG: It may be the biggest mobilization in Canadian history. $71 billion to cover the wages of Canadians whose employers have been hit hard by COVID-19, among many other measures announced in recent days, amounting to tens of billions of dollars. But according to the opposition, the government has been too slow to respond and has had to change course. Too often. We're joined now by the leader of the Conservative Party, Andrew Scheer. Mr. Scheer. Good morning.

ANDREW SCHEER: Good morning.

MG: Broadly, what is your assessment of how Justin Trudeau and his government have handled this unprecedented crisis?

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, look, first of all, we recognise that these are uncertain times and the challenge for any government to react to a pandemic of this nature. But we have raised concerns about the government being slow off the mark in the early days. We in the opposition called for travel restrictions much earlier to prevent people coming back from countries that had experienced spikes or surges in a number of cases. The government said that there is no reason to do so, that such measures were ineffective. And then we were told a few days later that they were doing exactly what we called for. The House of Commons was called back last week to pass legislation. Now the government has to recall is back to fix it. So we're concerned that the inconsistency of the messages that are coming out and the government making announcements and then taking days to implement the policies that they've announced.

MG: What would you have done differently?

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, we would have brought in the travel restrictions earlier. It seems now that was a key decision point that should've been made. The world now agrees that having that type of stopping of people travelling between different countries earlier on was an essential thing to have done. And, you know, obviously, we prefer to see is when a government makes an announcement that it has all the details ready, that when it passes legislation that it does so properly so that that money can flow. We've got businesses that haven't had customers in weeks looking for things like the wage subsidy that even today, days after announcements are made, still don't have all the information about how to access it or how to qualify for it.

MG: Is that fair? Is that fair to say, though, that you would've done that quicker, given the fact that, as you said, this is an unprecedented situation. Everybody is learning how to do this on the fly. And we spoke with Bill Morneau. He said that things are changing day by day and hour by hour. Is it really possible to have all of those ducks in a row before you announce what the policy is?

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, certainly the travel restrictions. Yes. And look, it's our job as the opposition to hold the government to account. I think many people are acknowledging that these are difficult and challenging times for any government. But, you know, we still expect our leaders to to rise to the occasion and, you know, to zero in on their wage subsidy. This is something that was announced almost two weeks ago. The House of Commons is recalled to pass legislation that a week later they had to completely change what they're doing and call us back to fix it. So if you think it's appropriate to say that when you've got a policy announcement like supporting workers, staying on the job, that the government figures it all out before they go out and announce it and that they start to do that quickly?

MG: Bill Morneau was on the program earlier and we talked about a couple of things. One is what is expected when it comes to support for the oil and gas sector. He said that that's coming, but he also said that it will be coming in tandem with support for, for example, the tourism sector. Do you think that those two should be lumped together or should there be distinct support for oil and gas?

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, when you look at the absolute extremely negative position that the oil or gas sector has been in for the past little bit, we do believe that it's urgently needed. I don't know what the rationale is between linking the two. And I would again point out when it comes to the timeline that last week Bill Morneau said that support for the oil and gas sector was coming in a matter of hours, not days. Here we are a full week later. So we are concerned about the timeline and the effect this delay is having on provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan that have gone through such a difficult time already.

MG: One of the other issues that we raised with Bill Morneau is the issue of banks and what banks are or aren't doing. We've heard stories, despite the fact there has been an announcement of a six month mortgage deferral, of people going to banks to try and get that mortgage deferral. They can't get it. Their mortgage rates have actually gone up in the last couple of days. Do you think that banks should be doing more to help Canadians in the midst of this economic meltdown?

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, certainly we believe that if the government is making funds available through the Bank of Canada, the government is offering to backstop certain types of lending products, absolutely, that the banks should be taking that and putting it to good work and making sure that individual candidates benefit from that. Nobody wants to see these measures go through. At the end of the day, all that we've done is strengthened the banks bottom line. We want to make sure this help gets out the door. So we are monitoring this as the opposition and we will be urging Bill Morneau to use the tools that he has to make sure that the goal of the policy is actually enacted.

MG: What about credit card interest specifically? This is something we asked Bill Morneau a couple of times about. And for Canadians who may be racking up debt because they don't have a job and they can't figure out any other way to pay the bills, they're still paying 20 percent credit card debt. There has been the suggestion that those credit card companies could perhaps ease that burden, not, you know, take away the principle that people are paying, but perhaps defer some of those high rates. Do you think that credit card interest rates should be lowered in this time?

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, we certainly believe that credit card companies and banks should take a look at what's going on and do everything we possibly can to help Canadians through this time. This is a very difficult time for so many people, as you mentioned. Many, many people who may not normally carry a balance or if they do, kind of being able to manage it. And then all of a sudden their income drops off a cliff. Many people haven't had shifts in weeks now, and they've got to be able to put food on the table. And we don't want to see so many Canadians buried in a position that they can't climb out of. We're going into this crisis with record levels of household debt and record numbers of kids just $200 away from being insolvent. So, you know, when we look at a government like we have right now that's given $50 billion to MasterCard in a corporate handout. We certainly believe that there should be some kind of reciprocity that the credit card companies would do for Canadians.

MG: What is the role - you've hinted at this a couple of times - what is the role of the opposition right now?

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, you know, right now we're taking the approach of holding the government to account to scrutinize what they're doing, to force them to make better decisions and better decisions more quickly. We're doing so in a way where we're recognising that Canadians want to see politicians work together. I don't think right now is the time for partisan divides and some of the larger philosophical questions between liberal and conservative that normally divides our two parties. But we do recognise that our government works better when it has robust debate, when it has people holding decision makers to account. That's one of the hallmarks of democratic societies. One of the benefits that we have, we don't want to see a government just doing whatever it thinks is right at the moment without any kind of accountability, because then we get the types of proper decisions that we need during this.

MG: Do you think that in holding them, holding the government to account, you have strayed into partisan divisions, that line has been crossed at all at a time when people tell you when Canadians want everyone to be working together?

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, as I said, it's our focus to avoid that. You know, there are times when we have to stand up for the rights proletarians, for example. Last week we were recalled. We were expecting to get a bill from the Liberals that would provide help to Canadians, put real assistance in their hands. And when we got to Ottawa, we discovered that they were trying to right themselves brand new powers. Caught us completely by surprise and broke the good faith that had so far existed between the government and the opposition. So moments like that, we certainly have to point that out and ask very tough questions about what was motivating the government to do that. Now, I think you'll find our shadow ministers and myself, of course, the past few weeks have obviously been critical in pointing things out, but always in a constructive way, hoping to get better programs and better services for Canadians.

MG: We are seeing an unprecedented amount of spending by this government in this moment. Hundreds of billions of dollars. This, as Bill Morneau says, could only just be the beginning. There could be a lot more money that's going out the door. You have longtime been a longtime advocate for smaller government. Does this crisis make you rethink that philosophy at all?

ANDREW SCHEER: Not at all. In fact, we would have been better off had we entered into this crisis with a balanced budget, with a more dynamic economy, with more capacity for the government to react. I think government should be there for when the free market isn't able to provide help for Canadians or to provide solutions. And we're in a case right now where the government is ordering people to stay home. They're ordering people to close their businesses and telling businesses not to open up. And that's having a huge impact on the economy and on people's lives. And we support the decisions that have been made to keep people safe, healthy. That's our first and foremost priority here. That being said, we do believe it's appropriate that when the government is ordering businesses not to open, that there some kind of compensation or some kind of support mechanism for workers who have been laid off during this time of crisis. We don't believe is when the economy is doing well, when the economy is functioning, that the government needs to be intervening in the economy to the degree that it has under the Liberals. It's a difference of opinion. That's a choice for Canadians to make during elections. I think we can all agree during this time of crisis that there are appropriate things for the government to do is to keep people safe, healthy and have some kind of financial assistance.

MG: How do you think we'll ultimately pay for this?

ANDREW SCHEER: That is a very good question and something that certainly keeps me up at night. As you mentioned, the deficit was already over $20 billion heading into this crisis. Now we're talking about massive amounts of borrowing in many ways financed by the central bank, printing money for the government, which is going to have consequences as well.

m: Which it's something that you said you support. But yeah.

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, no. But it's those still worries me as to what those long term consequences are. So a lot of things will be pushing the government forward in the weeks ahead. Let's say, OK, we all support these measures. Now, what's the plan afterwards to get our economy back to normal? To have some kind of return to fully [unintelligible] the timeline for balanced budgets will be much, much longer than they were earlier. From our point of view, the Liberals never had a balanced budget in target. But we need to start to- we need to have a plan to climb out of that debt. At the end of the day, if we don't, we're going to be paying much, much higher interest costs as a country. That needs more of the tax dollars, going to pay the interest on the debt that's been accumulated. So we need a responsible plan to get back to a normal fiscal position for the government. But again, you know, the priority right now is the health and safety of Canadians, making sure that we go through the health part of this in the best shape as possible.

MG: Just before I let you go; like a lot of Canadians, you're working at home through this crisis. You have five kids. How's that going at home?

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, like so many Canadians, it's been- so many Canadian families we're going through the challenges of that as well, playing an awful lot of card games, learned a lot more [unintelligible] than we did before, trying to get the kids to keep up their studies that the teachers have been sending lesson plans for home and trying to deal with each other. So it was a lot of patience. So it's a challenging time for the kids. The younger ones don't really understand why they can't go to the neighbourhood park and why they can't go over to the cousin's house. So it is challenging. But like so many Canadian families, we're in the exact same boat. We're just trying to get through this without all going crazy.

MG: You and all of us. Andrew Scheer, it's good to talk to you. Stay healthy and appreciate your time.

ANDREW SCHEER: Thank you, you too.

MG: Andrew shares the leader of the Conservative Party, we reached him at his home in Regina. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway.

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Hello. My name is Nour Aldin Karmash. I'm currently living in the countryside and I'm the spokesman and a humanitarian and field worker for Rahma Worldwide.

MG: That aid worker spends his time in refugee camps in Syria's Idlib province. And he says given the pandemic sweeping the globe, bluntly put, inhabitants face a terrible reality.

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He has gone through a lot of challenges in the past nine years because you are talking about thousands of people living in one refugee camps, sharing maybe two or three bathrooms, and they are trying their best to quarantine themselves inside their tents. But that's not as easy as it sounds, because the health and medical sector inside Edlib is at its worst.

MG: And Karmash describes the strain on the limited resources there.

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We are talking about less than 1600 medical beds for more than four million people, and the medical sector in general will not be enough to cover the needs, if this pandemic spread.

MG: There are no recorded cases of the coronavirus in the refugee camps. But Syria has reported its first death from COVID-19. And there are warnings that it could spread like wildfire through a population displaced by civil war. It's not just Syria as well. Refugees and asylum seekers around this world now face the added threat of COVID-19. Rosemary McCarney is Canada's former ambassador to the United Nations, a member of the World Refugee Council. Rosemary, good morning.

ROSEMARY MCCARNEY: Good morning, Matt. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. What goes through your mind when you hear about the situation in Syria in those camps?

ROSEMARY MCCARNEY: Well, what he's describing is absolutely accurate. And that's just today. I think that one of the things we need to shift our focus to as we start to flatten our curves, etc. in the northern countries is what we're going to do next when this virus is just in its infancy in some of the poorest health resourced countries of the world.

ROSEMARY MCCARNEY: How bad do you think it could get in a place like Syria?

ROSEMARY MCCARNEY: I think it's you know, there's Syria, of course, but there's Yemen next door and there's Bangladesh down the road. These countries were already in a health crisis in the best of times with broken and damaged hospitals and clinics, medical workers that have been killed or have fled, shelves that are empty in the pharmacy. So I think that the unimaginable, if this takes hold and we have to assume it's going to take hold in these resource poor countries, I think the unimaginable is something we're going to have to start thinking about.

MG: When you talk about resource poor here in Canada. We're speaking about the urgent scramble for ventilators, for masks, for gowns, for personal protective equipment. Is there anything like that that would be in place in those areas?

ROSEMARY MCCARNEY: Not at all. Not at all. If you can imagine countries that are so well off, like Canada and the United States and Norway and UK, what a struggle we're having with getting protective equipment for the health care workers and the right number of ventilators, et cetera, all of that surge capacity. And you can imagine, so if you think about a country well, just as an example, Mumbai, this slum in Mumbai, Dharavi. It's a slum that has a population density of almost a million people per square mile. When you think about countries in Africa, like the DRC or South Sudan, they have two, three ventilators for five million people. Uganda has one ICU bed per million people. The United States is one per 2500. And. And they're struggling. So you can imagine of we're struggling. What's going to happen when this takes off in in those countries and the poor countries of the world where we have some of the most vulnerable populations, that whether it's refugees or at sea, IDPs or just the poor in big cities in the global [unintelligible] and the poor people in middle income countries, let alone the homeless in our country.

MG: You wrote a piece in the Toronto Star and you said that the U.N. Security Council was in some way sitting on its hands in the midst of this crisis. What are you concerned about when it comes to the U.N.?

ROSEMARY MCCARNEY: Well, you know, the U.N. Security Council is at the top of the multilateral organizations in terms of our global governance. And they have a mandate to act when peace and security are threatened. And I don't think anyone is under any illusion says that when there's scarcity at the level and scale that we're witnessing around the world, and where this virus respects no boundaries whatsoever. All of us are in this together. This is the moment when the Security Council can play a very effective role in calling for open production lines. So calling to maintain open supply chains. So we're able to get things quickly and efficiently so that it doesn't become a race to the bottom by wealthier individuals or wealthier countries being able to corner a market on scarce resources. We need them to be able to mandate, and they have that power to mandate, that we share data, we share information that we adhere to the W.H.O. guidelines, that we raise, funds that the G7, the G20 step up further to help those that are most vulnerable. Because if we think for a moment that this isn't going to come back on us in a situation of a global pandemic, we're really, truly still living in a world of make believe.

MG: We started out talking about what's happening in Syria. Have a listen to Helen Perry. She's executive director of Global Response Management an emergency medical care NGO. She's just back from Mexico where there are thousands of refugees living in camps there.

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The majority of the individuals that we're working with have a very low health education. And there's a lot of fear that surrounds this. They've heard a lot of things. The governor of Tamaulipas came out recently in an interview and said that anybody who is not a documented Mexican living in the area would be deported. And so with court cases closing and things like that, it created this fear mentality where people are almost fearful of coming to us for help, for fear that they be the one to get sick.

MG: Rosemary McCarney, what do you make of what Helen Perry said, in some ways, people are afraid of live reporting?

ROSEMARY MCCARNEY: Yes, I absolutely agree. We have to make sure that fear isn't running even faster than the virus itself. She's absolutely right. And, you know, if we have to understand that there's 71 million people around the planet right now who have been forcibly displaced, they're IDPs, they're refugees there, the 10 million stateless people. If we don't believe that they're not going to move, of course they're going to move. I mean, migrants move because of economic disasters. Refugees move because of persecution. The stateless are just in a mode of trying to eke out a living and keep their families together. People will always move to safer areas. They're going to walk. They're going to get into small boats. They're going to ride in trucks and on mules. They're going to swim. They're going to do what it takes to survive. And so she's absolutely right. And that's why we have to jump on the fear issue, which, you know, I think we do very well in this country with transparent communications and assurance that it's going to, yes, it's going to get worse, but then it'll get better. But those kinds of skill sets to be able to help people understand how to for example, how do we use communal latrines in refugee camps in a safer way? How do we use communal waterholes and boreholes in a safer way? How do we, for example, separate the elderly in vulnerable populations so that we can secure them more safely away from their families? These are going to require both behavioural deep cultural shifts and as we wait for the science to catch up and get in front of this virus. So she's absolutely right. But people have to see their mayors and their provincial state authorities and their national authorities communicating and acting and equipping them with the knowledge of how to protect themselves in very difficult situations.

MG: Is there just in a couple of seconds, is that the will to do that, do you think?

ROSEMARY MCCARNEY: You know what I think why I stay optimistic is, you know, I was quite involved in the Ebola outbreak only a few short years ago. And when you think about what could have happened in terms of the spread through the border countries off the three West Africa countries. And it didn't happen. It didn't happen because two things. We got behavioural change that went against deep held cultural views and we got the science and we got a vaccine in, we got better drug protocols in. And so we're in a foot race. There's no question. But with these poor, poorest of poor country, right foot races to get the vaccine and the science as quickly as possible and in the interim, to get the social science change that that's needed to protect themselves.

MG: Great to speak with you, Rosemary. Thank you.

ROSEMARY MCCARNEY: Thank you very much.

MG: Rosemary McCarney, Canada's former ambassador to the U.N. and a member of the World Refugee Council. This is an extended edition of The Current. My name is Matt Galloway. We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

Sex writer Dan Savage shares what love and sex from a safe physical distance can look like, Ty Burrell

Guests: Anastasia Davis, Josh Davis, Dan Savage, Ty Burrell

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. It can be difficult keeping the romantic spark alive under the best of circumstances when you are under orders to stay home 24 hours a day for weeks on end, whether with your lover, apart from your lover or looking for a lover. Well, that can be near to impossible. So we thought we'd call in some help. The sex and relationship columnist Dan Savage will join us shortly. But first thought we check in with a couple for whom intimacy got a big boost back in March. That's when Josh and Anastasia Davis tied the knot there at home in Coquitlam, British Columbia. Good morning.

JOSH DAVIS: Good morning.

MG: Congratulations.

JOSH DAVIS: Thank you.

MG: This is not perhaps the honeymoon that you would have expected.

JOSH DAVIS: No, definitely not.

MG: How have things been going?

JOSH DAVIS: Actually, pretty good, pretty good. It's been definitely it's been a crazy week for us as you guys kind of know our story has gone a little bit viral.

MG: It sure has.

JOSH DAVIS: We've been we've been dealing with all of that and trying to start our life together in the same house in self-isolation for the most part as self isolated as you can be. And yes, it's been great.

MG: Anastasia, when did you realise that the wedding that you had planned was not going to happen the way that you thought it would?

ANASTASIA DAVID: Well, a thing after another had started to cancel. About three weeks ago, I would say, like it was last month. It just kind of started to like one thing got cancelled and another. And so I think March 16th was when it has pretty hard when the gatherings went from 250 to 50 people. And that's when we knew that our wedding has to, at this point completely changed because our venue wasn't hosting our wedding at all.

MG: But you didn't you didn't postpone it. You kept going with the idea of getting married still on the 22nd.

ANASTASIA DAVID: Yes. Yes. So we were so going with the April 3rd idea, we just had wanted to change now from venue where you thought, okay, now we're just going to do like a plan B, backyard at a wedding. Josh's fans are nice [unintelligible] the back yard. So we've decided that we're just going to do like we're going to rent some tents. We're going to run some tables and just make it really like cute backyard wedding. So we stick with the April 3rd, but then we just had to uninvite most of our friends at that point because our guest list was about 135 people.

MG: How did how difficult was that to uninvite people, Josh? You have great plans for a wedding. You think about it and then suddenly a lot of people aren't able to be there around you.

JOSH DAVIS: Yes it was really hard, especially you can imagine telling church friends that you feel like you're on the same level with everyone and then you have to limit your list, be down to family and then a few plus ones from church. And that was really tough. And it was something that neither Anastasia or I were really looking forward to doing, obviously. But yes, we had to do that. And that was the plan was going to be going from 50 down to, well, going from 135-ish down to 50.

MG: 50. That's a small little wedding. Everybody's healthy and safe. I'm assuming that was there. And we're now being told you can't really gather even in groups of 50.

JOSH DAVIS: Yes. So for at least four B.C. at the time, we were we didn't have any restrictions on groups under 50 other than try and keep social distance as best as possible. And so that was kind of when we had to change our plans again as more and more people were deciding to well, they were texting, saying that someone in their family is a vulnerable person or someone else is exhibiting some symptom of COVID-19. So that was when we changed our minds and really had to think about it. Do we want to be doing any kind of gathering of even 50 people or should we just basically cancel the whole plan for April 3rd anyway and go sooner with an even smaller group and just do essentially our immediate family and a couple of necessary plus ones.

MG: Can you throw Anastacia back on the line?

ANASTASIA DAVID: Yes.

MG: You decide you get married, you get into the limo, you out to have your pictures taken. This is a beautiful story. Just briefly, tell us what happened.

ANASTASIA DAVID: Oh, yes. So as soon as we had our little mini living on ceremony of less than 15 people, Josh's parents living room, our limo had arrived. So we hopped into the limo and there was just myself. There was Josh and Josh's best man and Josh's sister. So best man and a maid of honour. There was only four of us from the beginning. There's supposed to be ten of us, but we had to cancel everything. And so we just hopped into the limo and we were driving. And as we were driving to the place, they were supposed to be taking pictures. We were actually talking to Greg, which is Josh's best, and they were saying how thankful we are for all of our friends, all of our family members, because they've been so good. They've been so understanding and because we had to make so many changes to our plans. We were just so grateful that people weren't like judging us and, you know, always change your wedding date. And it was just, it was just so nice that they had her back. And as we're driving, Greg says, why did you guys roll your windows? And we're like, okay, sure. And we'll roll our windows. And then we kind of saw like some people parked on the street has balloons. And we thought to ourselves, like, hmm, they probably someone's already there ahead of us. Maybe there's like a birthday party or another wedding. And we're like, dang it, like in front of the yard that someone else was gonna take our picture place. But as you approached even closer, we started to realise that this is- we know that person. We know that one. And we just started realising that these are like all of our friends that couldn't make it, that we had to uninvite, like our wedding party that couldn't be there anymore. They were there as well. And we just started crying. It was so overwhelming because it was the we did not know any of it.

JOSH DAVIS: You won't forget this moment for a bunch of reasons. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. Congratulations again.

ANASTASIA DAVID: Thank you so much.

JOSH DAVIS: Thank you.

MG: Anastasia and Josh Davis, newlyweds honeymooning in isolation. In Coquitlam, British Columbia. These are very unusual times, forcing people to get creative in the quest for love. And of course, if you are a newlywed, maybe you've been together with your partner for a long time. Maybe you're separated by physical distancing. These are also unprecedented times. Dan Savage is a relationship and sex advice columnist and the host of The Savage Love Cast. He has been exploring love and sex in the time of the pandemic, and he's here to share his wisdom. We should probably warn you that this could be a mature conversation. You may want to practise a bit of physical distancing with your kids if they're around the radio. Dan Savage, good morning to you.

DAN SAVAGE: Good morning.

MG: What are you hearing from your listeners and your readers about the strain that confinement is putting on our relations?

DAN SAVAGE: Well, there's the strain that confinement is putting on the relationships of people who are coupled and are suddenly together 24 hours a day. One thing we know about relationships and sustaining them and keeping them healthy and keeping the spark alive is a time apart is really important. Having different experiences is really important. So when you come home, at the end of the day, it's something to share. And being out together and sometimes seeing your partner through the eyes of others can restart our desire for our partners. All those things are gone right now. And there's that strain. It's important to be patient in time with each other. You know, oftentimes relationships we talk about, you know, people who are opposites on different kinds of issues. Some people react to stress by becoming horny and some people react to stress by having their libidos completely taken crater. And so if you're mixed matched in that way, that can become an engine of conflict. The last thing any of us need right now is an engine of conflict while we're all cooped up together. So just acknowledging if you're on different pages and being patient and kind of indulgent with each other, and even if sexism going to happen, you can still have intimacy and still touch. You know, sometimes if you have [unintelligible] in touch, sex will break out. But if you go into it with the pressures and expectations, effect must happen. That can make the person who is being less horny or less desired feel bullied or pressured or coerced. And you don't want that because that's the opposite of desire. And so people have to be patient, be kind. Most of people I'm hearing from my column and my podcast are people who are trying to game out what they what they're allowed to do. You know, they don't live with their partner or they have multiple partners. Can their partner come over? Is it safe to see your multiple partners? And it's not. And your partner shouldn't come over unless you guys are going to shelter in place together. If you want to be intimate you're going to have to get creative with text messaging, video chat services and dirty phone calls and keeping the spark alive that you can imagine.

MG: That would be really complicating for somebody, as you mentioned, who are somebody who's apart, long distance relationship, whether it's in the same city and you might be together or whether you live in other parts of the country or in other parts of the world.

DAN SAVAGE: Yes, it's very complicated. Long distance relationships are strained and complicated when people often talk about with this added element of not knowing when you're going to be able to get back together again in the same place. Travel shutting down, everyone is going to really have to dig deep, find their stories of patients and resilience around relationship to sustain those relationships and use the tools that allow us to maintain social contact and even sexual contact without physically being in the same place. Get online, get on face time, get on Zoom, text message, sext message. These are not, you know, the dirty sex advice columnist suggestions. These are suggestions are being cranked out by health departments and by state governments.

MG: Why do you think that is? I mean, and that's not to say what you do is Norley the dirty sex columnist, but why would it why would health departments be saying that this is so important at a time like this?

DAN SAVAGE: To slow the spread and to flatten the curve. If we make exceptions and violate isolation to go get our rocks off, it's not something that happens outside of the possibility of infection. This is a very easily transmitted infection. And it's not just people who are in the much more vulnerable groups who are at risk. There are young people who have died. And to get through this, we're really going to have to all be monogamist now.

MG: Which is something unusual for Dan Savage to say.

DAN SAVAGE: It's very unusual for me to say that non-monogamy is cancelled and polygamy is cancelled, because I've written a great deal about both those deaths. Not to proselytize, but so that people who, you know, monogamy isn't the right model for them, isn't going to make them happy, don't make monogamous commitments because they feel they have no other option. It's a disaster for monogamous relationships when people can't do monogamy enter into them. We want people who can't do monogamy opt to make monogamous commitments. But right now, a kind of situation on monogamy may be forced on us. We should only be having sex with people that we live with who are our sex partners. That doesn't mean your parents. Only have sex with people that you live with who want to have sex with you. And if you don't live with your lovers and you are sheltering in place for them and one of you doesn't want to move into the other's house for the duration, we call that savage love won't you be my quarantine? As opposed to be my valentine? If somebody does want to move in traversing the city to get to each other, taking public transportation, you put yourself at risk. You put others at risk, you put your partner at risk, and then you put the people that you are sheltering in place with. If they are back at home without your lovers, your parents, for instance, you put them at risk and none of that can be. None of that can happen. And as a gay man and a 55 year old gay man, I have to say some of this panic and these sudden limitations are so very like what the gay community went through the early 80s.

MG: I was going to ask you about the resonances of the AIDS HIV crisis and what people thought about in terms of being fearful in some ways a physical intimacy.

DAN SAVAGE: It was terrifying and physical intimacy was terrifying, but we still sort it out because it's so important to our mental health. But, you know, people are talking about getting tested. People are talking about getting infected. People are talking about safe sex and a pandemic. We're hearing stories of people dying alone for a lot of gay men and others who survived the AIDS crisis, hearing these things as drudging up a lot of trauma. And we understand what kind of the world is going through now. We went through it in a different way that HIV was much harder to transmit, obviously, than COVID is. And so it was possible to figure out what safe sex was and how to have it. But right now, safe sex is very different. When you talk about COVID, it is a partner that you're already having sex with and that you live with. And that with that partner, you don't need to use barriers. And you can have sex. Sharing a living environment, you know, you can be intimate. You can be within six feet of each other. You can be inside each other. But you can't head out there into the world and seek out new partners, which is really difficult for a lot of people.

MG: Let me ask you just in that we have a couple of seconds left, two very quick kind of one word question answers. Do you think that there will be - people talk about the idea of, you know, quarantine baby-boom nine months from now? Is that going to happen?

DAN SAVAGE: No. There's going to be a quarantine divorce boom. We've already seen it in China, where cities that have ever locked out for months, when those lockdowns were eased, people, there was a huge boom in divorce. There was so much uncertainty in the world at access. You know, people not knowing how long this is going to go on and access to hospitals and doctors being limited or being terrifying, the thought of going into a hospital or seeing the doctor when you're pregnant. I don't think there's going to be a baby boom. People said the same thing after 9/11. There would be 9/11 baby boom. There wasn't.

MG: Well, the second question was about divorce. And you answered it right there. So we'll leave it at that. Dan, great to talk to you. Stay healthy and safe.

DAN SAVAGE: Thank you. Same to you and your listeners.

MG: Dan Savage, columnist and the host of The Savage Love Cast. He was in Seattle, Washington. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway extended edition of the program. We're joined once again by our pal Tom Power. He's the host of Q. Hello, Tom.

TOM POWER: Matt, thanks for bringing me on after that. Thanks for bringing the folk musician on after that. I really appreciate that.

MG: I probably draw some connections between the two, but maybe we'll just leave it at that,.

TP: Oh yes the autoharp. That fits into the conversation.

MG: The autoharp, sure. Modern Family, you've been watching a lot of Modern Family.

TP: I have. I've been I've been watching an awful lot of Modern Family over the years. It just kind of a nice break from the day over the past few years, it's been on. It's one of those shows that somehow been loved by critics and by, even by any sort of non critics, by, you know, us. So after eleven seasons, Modern Family is finally ending. I got to speak to Emmy Award winning actor Ty Burrell. I'm saying goodbye to his character, The Middle-Aged dad, Phil Dunphy.

SOUNDCLIP

TP: How are you?

TY BURRELL: I'm good. Thanks for having me on.

TP: It's a joy to have you on. I want to talk about the show. I want to talk about your initiative. And not a lot of people in Canada may not know about this. This is the tip your server project. I didn't know you were involved in the bar industry at all. Tell me a little bit about that. Tell me a little bit about this initiative.

TY BURRELL: Yes, my brother and I and a few other shirttail relatives in in Utah own a few businesses that are mostly bars. And what happened in Salt Lake is that in addition to COVID-19 and this is really why I'm reaching out to people as they had a series of earthquakes two weeks ago that shut some of the other restaurants down. So they're not even able to do takeout. So it's they've been hit twice. So the tip your server program is about all of the unemployed. It's for all of the unemployed employees of the food and beverage industry in Salt Lake who are out of work and are a particularly vulnerable part of the population anywhere in the United States. But because of the earthquakes in Salt Lake, it's really tough. And so we're trying to raise money for the U.S. food and beverage employees as a stopgap to get them between now and to their unemployment or between mental and to this stimulus package with a little bit more immediate problems.

TP: It's a really noble thing to do. And I think, you know, our thoughts are with everybody out of work right now and especially anyone whose income relies on people getting together.

TY BURRELL: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Exactly.

TP: Ty, I want to ask you about a quote I read one time that said to play Phil Dunphy to be in his head is like taking a trip to the spa. What does that mean?

TY BURRELL: I feel like, you know, the like default setting for Phil's blame was always sort of the various sounds that you get on a sound machine. It's like meadow or waterfall. It's always is a person who, no matter almost any circumstance, you find him in a place of sort of blissful emptiness. And I say that, not even, I really don't think that Phil Dunphy is, you know, that character is really dumb. Like our writers didn't write him as dumb. They just wrote him in a kind of a positive, a lovely, oblivious way. And it was- it's every day going to work to place homes is pleasure, because who wouldn't want to show up and play someone who's, you know, no matter where you find them, is in a good mood. Essentially the sound of tall grass swaying.

TP: I want to play a clip from the show. Take a listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

VOICE 2: It's okay. Maybe they didn't see anything, sweetie.

VOICE 1: They screamed. They dropped a tray of dishes and they ran out of here like they were on fire.

VOICE 2: You were on fire. Lady.

VOICE 1: Really? It's going.

VOICE 2: Well, forgive me for thinking you're zesty performance deserves some praise.

TP: That is Phil and Claire Dunphy from Modern Family in a compromising situation that parents might be finding themselves in right now as their home self isolating and leading with their kids.

TY BURRELL: COVID babies is there going to be like baby boomers. There's going to be a whole range of kids born during this time.

TP: Yes, like a like a generation 19 or something. Yes.

TY BURRELL: Yes, exactly. But, you know, generation banking.

TP: You know, it's interesting to see you and Julie Bowen, who plays Claire. You guy are getting older in this show. And I don't know how to say this delicately, but you're also getting older yourself. Like there's a, your character's going through a mid-life crisis. Sort of at the same time you're turning 50. Could you relate to that at all?

TY BURRELL: Absolutely. What's interesting, actually, is that I think they have me like they have Phil like two years younger, I think, than I actually am. So I was experiencing turning 50 and feeling older before the character was so amazing. So I was really prepared to talk about, you know, that kind of thing. But in reality, I was dealing with, I really genuinely love physical comedy. And I had just one opportunity after another to just have some of the best times in my life on this show. But as I got, you know, gets around season nine and I'm 50, some of this stuff was like, could we possibly get this all in like three takes? Can we put one more layer of padding down for this very basic, simple fall?

TP: I heard you learn how to use a jetpack when you were like 50.

TY BURRELL: Oh, my God. Yes. I love. I feel so lucky because I've had so many experiences like that. I got to ride a jet pack. I got a motorcycle like this, though I did crappy. I've done that type robe. You know, there's all these experience life experiences that I got because of playing Phil. The jetpack specifically was on my 50th birthday. And. It was an amazing, you know, I really took a moment, I thought this is crazy. I'm 50 years old and doing this jetpack. Luckily, the water was soft because I fell a lot. But it was it was amazing.

TP: It's been such an amazing run and Modern Family has meant so much to us in a time like this. I just have to kind of quick questions before we go one. When you look back on your time on this show, you know, what's a memory that you'll take with you forever?

TY BURRELL: I have a few of these memories that I think I'm going to remember more than anything. And it's really the group scenes that we filmed together. Those scenes I just feel like they went so far for the offscreen relationships of all of us. We all grew very tight with each other. It was an amazing thing that everybody, you know. You know, not, it was not perfect. But for the most part, everybody got along through the whole thing. And those big groups things were sort of like an all day alcohol free party, you know, a lot of like you do a take, then your working out, working hard on material, but then you're also kind of kept up with each other between them. Those are the memories I'm going to keep forever.

TP: And before we go, how do you think Phil would be handling self isolating during the pandemic right now?

TY BURRELL: Well, I know for me, working really hard on [unintelligible]. I also think that there would be some incredible inventions, ultimately useless, but some really elaborate invention that would come out of the- I don't know what it would be, but it would probably involve, you know, a variety of household goods and then ultimately it would serve no purpose.

TP: Ty, man, thanks so much for talking to me. Congrats on the final episode and congrats on a great run on a great show.

TY BURRELL: Thank you, Tom. Be well.

MG: That's Tom Power speaking with Ty Burrell of Modern Family Tom. The sad night last night in the world of music when it comes to this pandemic.

TP: Yes. I mean, it seems like every day we're waking up to Saturn's had our news around the arts community. Last night we found out that Adam Schlesinger from the band Fountains of Wayne passed away. He was just 52 years old. He had a number of hits. One, I'll get to it just a second. But even after that, we found out that Alice Marcellus, junior father of Wynton and Branford Marsalis, but most importantly, you know, father of modern jazz education in New Orleans, responsible for so much of the jazz music in New Orleans right now passed, away as well. So it's is an incredibly sad time. We're keeping an eye on all of these things. Adam Schlesinger, you might know Fountains of Wayne. They had a really big hit with a song called Stacy's Mum. And they also had a number of really big power pop hits. Ed Robertson for Bare Naked Ladies talking about them as a major influence on them. But my favourite is this song they recorded for Tom Hanks's sort of fake Beatles biopic about a band called The Wonders. They wrote this song called That Thing You Do. And I thought we could play it in his honour.

MG: What a great idea. Tom, thank you.

TP: Thank you, Matt.

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[Song: That Thing You Do]

MG: In memory of the great out of the are one of be the best pop singer songwriters of our generation. That is a song, the title track from the Tom Hanks film, That Thing You Do. Coming up after the news, what are you going to do with all those beans that are in your pantry? The chef Samin Nosrat will be here to talk about home cooking at a time when we're all stuck at home. That's on its way. This is The Current. I Matt Galloway. Stay with us.

Samin Nosrat wants to 'keep you company' with her podcast for pantry cooking

Guests: Samin Nosrat, Kathleen Newman-Bremang

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme].

MG: Still to come, have you subscribed to a bunch of streaming services now that you're stuck inside for days on end? What should you watch on those services? Tom Power will be here with more on that coming up. But first, quarantine cooking with Samin Nosrat.

[Music: Theme].

MG: Her cookbook, Salt, Fat, Acid Heat, is a staple in many kitchens, including mine Samin Nosrat has developed a devoted following with her hit Netflix series and now podcast to help us with pantry cooking during a pandemic. The podcast is called Home Cooking. Samin Nosrat joins me now from her home in Oakland, California. Samin, good morning.

SAMIN NOSRAT: Good morning.

MG: How are you doing in the middle of this wild situation that we all find ourselves in?

SAMIN NOSRAT: I feel strangely fine, to be totally honest. I've had a hard few years, just like incredibly demanding. So it's been really nice to just to be home.

MG: Even if you're forced to be home.

SAMIN NOSRAT: I have a big garden and I feel really lucky to live in the situation where I live. So I'm trying to sort of share my pleasure and joy with others right now.

MG: You're doing this. I mean, I would think that sales of a cookbook would go through the ceiling because people have time to cook and they need some direction. But this podcast arrives at a perfect time and it's a ton of fun as well. Where did the idea for come from?

SAMIN NOSRAT: Thank you. Well, my friend and collaborator, Rishi Casherawy is a great independent podcast producer. And so we've been talking about doing a podcast together for a couple years. And he's always pestering me. He's like, let's do and let's do it. And I've been so busy. And so a few weeks ago, he said, what if we just did a little project and it's not like you're doing anything else right now? And so we had kind of had the idea already in the back of our minds. And so it just now is the right time.

MG: What is different in cooking now than at a normal time? And you know what we were called in the before time when you're stuck at home. What's different about that?

SAMIN NOSRAT: Well, I would say the constraints are different. I mean, typically are we have every ingredient available to us. We can run out to any store and get anything we need. But we are often limited in our time. And now it's a little bit reversed where we have all the time in the world and a lot more limitations in terms of our ingredients or, you know, what we're exactly able to make.

MG: The first episode of this podcast, there's a large part of it that is devoted, not by your design, but because these are the questions that sent in is devoted to beans. What is it about dried beans that is so perplexing to people?

SAMIN NOSRAT: I think a lot of people have really bad relationship to beans because they- end to me, I think that it's because they've historically undercooked them. So that can cause a lot of gastrointestinal distress. But, and also there have been many, many being that I've eaten at other people's homes that are not cooked evenly. And so I think if you've been storing little beans in your coverage for many decades, they dry it out to such an extent that they'll never cook up all the way evenly. So it's just about giving people some tips and giving them the comfort to know it's okay if you're being is a little bit falling apart because it's overcooked, because I'd rather eaten overcooked being undercooked.

MG: You get into this debate of to soak or not to soak, are we supposed to soak the dried beans that we have?

SAMIN NOSRAT: I believe in soaking. It's not essential, but I do think it shortens the cooking time and it also creates a more tender bean.

MG: Can I ask you then for people who are listening, who they've opened the pantry and they're in that jar at the back is a selection of beans that from unknown provenance. And they're not sure how long they've been there. What should they do? Give us a very quick idea of what they could do with those beans.

SAMIN NOSRAT: Soak those beans overnight and three times the amount of water with a generous pinch of salt and a pinch of baking soda and then in the morning, just to use that same liquid. I mean, I've just gotten soak them in the same pot and bring them to a boil. Turn them down to a simmer and cook them until they're tender. Then I would add a glug of olive oil and any spices I want. And if they still are not evenly cooked, turn it into a pureed bean soup.

MG: That's the easiest thing in the world.

SAMIN NOSRAT: Yes,.

MG: There's a lot of anxiety right now and people are feeling it in all sorts of parts of their lives, whether it's around work and they've maybe have lost a job and they don't know how that they're going to afford the things that are important to them, whether it's about what's going to come, because we don't know how long this is going to last. What do you think it is that being in a kitchen and cooking can do to ease that anxiety?

SAMIN NOSRAT: I think it's a couple of things. One, for me, cooking has always been a wonderful physical pursuit that gets me back in my body. I'm pretty heady person. I spend a lot of time being anxious and worrying and thinking about the future, what I need to do. And so when I'm in the kitchen, I have to be really present with what I'm doing. That means, you know, really using all five of my senses and that is probably the shortest, shortest way, you know, quickest way into kind of meditation for me is is being really present in the kitchen. And, you know, certainly smelling and looking and touching and tasting. You do everything. You even have to listen when you cook. And it's a nice way out of my head and into my body. So I think that's a really great thing for people. And also, I mean, even though our circles might be really limited and for me, for example, I live completely by myself. So it's not that I'm cooking for others on a regular basis, although I do give a lot of food away to my neighbours and to homeless people in my community. And I found myself cooking a lot and not really interested in eating that much right now.

MG: Really.

SAMIN NOSRAT: Yeah, I which for the first time in my life I have no appetite, which is so weird. But I do think there, you know, that thing that in other times food has been a reason for us to gather in a way for us to connect with others. And I don't think that that needs to end whether that connection is happening digitally. I know a lot of people are gathering for like Zoom lunches and Zoom meals or just sharing food with your neighbours and people in your community.

MG: How social is that experience of cooking for people, do you think? I mean, I love to make food for people, and it's almost to me more enjoyable than me eating it is actually giving it to somebody else. Just in general life, how social is the element of cooking for you?

SAMIN NOSRAT: Well, I'm a champion for incredibly social cooking because I think that it's a good thing to spread. You know, it's a wonderful virus first to spread to feel good.

MG: It's a good virus.

SAMIN NOSRAT: Because I think what it does is, there are so many obstacles for people these days. I mean, certainly before the this virus really came about. There was a lot of people feeling very wistful, like they would never be a good cook and watching whatever everyone else is doing on Instagram and comparing themselves and feeling intimidated. And I think the only way through that is practise and is just participation. And that practise and participation happens, you know, in the most simple way when we join each other in the kitchen and peel garlic and chop parsley and just, you know, stir a pot of beans and do the simplest things and taste. So if anything, I actually think right now, this period of time when we really are sort of all driven back into our kitchens, a wonderful thing that will come from it is a lot more confidence in the kitchen for people because the only way there is practise. And now we're getting that practise.

MG: What about also, and I hope that that's true, that people do spend the time and feel more confident because it can be intimidating. What about also the idea that that will get a better sense as to where our food comes from? I was speaking with Bill McKibben, the environmentalist on the program a few weeks ago, and he talked out that this this can remind us of our place in the physical world in some ways, and that there is a physical element to who we are and where we live. And you might lose that in the hurly burly of the day to day. And this changes that.

SAMIN NOSRAT: I definitely think that that is a wonderful thing that is certainly happening here in California. I mean, it might be a little cold where you.

MG: We are starting to think about planting things.

SAMIN NOSRAT: But certainly our relationships to the land in terms of our own gardens. I think I've seen there's been a huge upshot here in upswing, I should say, in people you know, the nurseries are completely sold out of all of the plant starts and seeds and things like that. But even more than that, I think the relationship to our local farmers, I see that deepening and farmer's markets are still able to run here. And a lot of farmers who are really suffering because restaurants are closed have pivoted, you know, on a moment's notice to farm boxes. And so people who I never thought I'd see order a farm box are ordering farm boxes and driving an hour or so to do a pickup, bulk pickup of, you know, a whole bunch of pork that just came out of the freezer from their farm Areno. So it is kind of heartwarming for me to see these small farmers getting direct relationships to their customers, albeit under really quite extreme circumstances. But that hopefully is something that will sustain. I think for me, I feel so safe because I know so many people who grow food and I feel like there will always be something for me to buy.

MG: You talked about the last few years of your life, which have been wild, and this Netflix series was this enormous hit. And people who perhaps hadn't had the book before learn about you. They got excited about how excited you are about food and they follow you along. What was that like, that whole experience of TV, I guess it's still TV, streaming celebrity and becoming famous in that way?

SAMIN NOSRAT: It's surreal. It's definitely surreal. It's I don't know that that was ever a goal that I had. I definitely wanted to make the show because I wanted to get the word out and teach people this pretty simple philosophy about cooking. But I don't think I anticipated what would happen to my life. And it's kind of turned a lot of things upside down. I mean, on the one hand, the show helped sell so many books that I was able to buy a house, which was not something I ever was sure I would be able to do. So that's amazing. And I feel really financially secure. So that's really wonderful. But also, I've completely lost all anonymity. And a lot of the privacy that I was used to that comes with anonymity. So, you know, luckily, almost I would say entirely 100 percent of the attention is positive and incredibly wonderful. It's just that I wasn't always used to this much attention. So it's been something to get used to. And I just have to be a lot more in touch with how I'm feeling before I prepare to leave the house, basically, so that I can sort of be my best self in public because it's so earnest and wonderful, what it is that people say to me and what I want is how they would want to interact with me. It's just that it's constant. And especially, you know, I always say the epicentres for me are the farmer's market, the grocery store and restaurants.

MG: The places you want to be.

SAMIN NOSRAT: Yes. Ground zero. But ait's so it is really to me, the most heartwarming part of it is seeing the way it actually affects people's lives incredibly positively. And so or, you know, when kids feel like they're cooking in there, they come up, you know, and they're shy sort of behind their parents and they need to say hi to me. That's really wonderful. And the other thing is, so many people of colour and queer people and overweight people and differently abled people and just people who are not the typical people who are represented on screen, they really feel somehow a connection to me because they think I'm not the typical person who you see on screen.

MG: That's amazing when that if that happens.

SAMIN NOSRAT: And so that's really heartwarming for me as when people, you know, really just kind of thank me for being there. And I do think, wow, what I wouldn't have given as a little kid to see all sorts of different kinds of people on screen not would have enemies.

MG: What's the effect of that, do you think? That's I mean, there's two sides that one is that burden, as you said, that you have to be your best self as you step out the door. But you know that people are going to see you as a representative of who they are in some ways. What is the what is the effect of that? Do you think on them to see you on that screen and see you be successful?

SAMIN NOSRAT: I think it may. I mean, I can only think about how it would affect me or how it has affected me in the past in both on the page and on the screen, which is you feel less out there. You feel less different. You feel like your difference is acceptable and something to celebrate. And that's really wonderful because I spent my childhood, you know, in a sea of beautiful white, blond Southern Californians and feeling very much like the odd person out. And like, I would never belong. And so I think that if I can share with people a sense of belonging through just being me, then that's a really wonderful thing that I'm happy to do and I feel really proud of. And if I can also help you feel like you belong because you're a little more confident in the kitchen, then that's great, too.

MG: I had read that you were working in and around the idea of being, if not a full vegan, then like a daytime vegan, is that true?

SAMIN NOSRAT: Yes. I will say that's changed.

MG: Pandemic puts on different pressures on one's life.

SAMIN NOSRAT: And the pre-pandemic. Yes, since about June I've been sort of aiming to eat to at least two meals a day that are completely plant based or other sort of like I've loosened up the rules a little bit for myself or I eat predominantly vegetarian the whole day. So my main I would say my two big exceptions, well, my main exception meat wise is not even meat really. It's chicken stock. And I love chicken stock. I feel like it makes me a superhero and I can do anything if I have chicken stock. So I do make chicken stock. A friend who is a chef who uses so many chicken bones that she doesn't know what to do. She gives me chicken bones and I make stock with those. And then during the day, I try really hard not to eat dairy, but sometimes I really just need some butter on my toast, you know?

MG: It's fair. We all sometimes. Yes. Yes. So in that I mean maybe it's before. But what would the comfort food be for you right now?

SAMIN NOSRAT: So one of my very favourite things to make, which actually does align with the vegan lifestyle is a dish that I learned from one of my friends who grew up like children of hippies with her sister in Hawaii. And for them, they're like greatest treat that they could ever imagine when they went to the health food store with their mum was that she would buy them marinated tofu, like if they were good.

MG: That's the treat?

SAMIN NOSRAT: And so my friend Mara makes this tofu that is so funny. And I know this will raise a lot of eyebrows, but it's so delicious. And I say this is a person who really enjoys eating meat that you to you take medium firm tofu and drizzle a little bit of Braggs liquid amino. I'm not sure if that's available in Canada. It's a kind of unfermented soy sauce staple comes with a yellow label. If you can't find Braggs liquid amino as you can use soy sauce and then you kind of pat it dry. And it's been sliced into maybe half inch thick slices and then it gets fried in coconut oil. And there's something about this combination of these three ingredients that is so mouthwateringly delicious. It's so incredibly like, it's just it's so savoury and wonderful. And then the textures are really incredible because the coconut oil gets so hot that the surface of the tofu develops this incredibly lacy golden crust. But if you use the medium term tofu, that what happens is the inside sort of melts into this custody texture.

MG: Oh, my goodness.

SAMIN NOSRAT: So it's so good. It's so good. I wrote an entire column in The New York Times magazine about it. And I usually do that with steamed rice and just like boiled or sautéed vegetables and a big dollop of hot sauce. And it's so, so comforting. It's so good.

MG: You know, what happens is I watch your shows or I read and go and cook from your book and my mouth starts to water. And that's just happening now as you're describing this. I'm a big fan. It's a real pleasure to talk to you and be well in the midst of all of this, this wildness.

SAMIN NOSRAT: Thank you, take care.

SAMIN NOSRAT: Samin Nosrat is a chef and food writer for The New York Times magazine and the host of the Netflix series Salt, Fat, Acid Heat. She's the co-host of a new quarantine cooking podcast. It's called Home Cooking.

[Music]

MG: It's The Current on CBC Radio One. I Matt Galloway Tom Power, host of Q is back, hello, Tom.

TP: Matt I had to switch over to the phone with my dial up, not working. Someone picked up the phone in the house.

MG: You got to pay the internet bill.

TP: No way that you know what? I can't do it. I refuse to do what? I just try to plug into a telephone pole outside the house at any moment.

MG: Samin Nosrat has a show that people could stream on Netflix. You're here to talk about some other things that people could watch while they have lots of time on their hands.

TP: I love the idea of coming to the end of Netflix and someone tells you to read a book at the end of it. But if you're worried about that happening, that you worry that you've seen everything there is to see or you're tired, and if you watch another episode of Friends, you're going to die and you're terrified to watch CNN. I asked our screen panellists, perhaps the most prodigious TV watcher I know, Kathleen Newman-Bremang to give you a couple of picks for things maybe you haven't seen.

SOUNDCLIP

How are you holding up?

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: Hi, I'm holding up. Know I'm taking it day by day, trying to help where I can watching all the things.

TP: Let's start with the show that everyone's talking about on Netflix this week. Here is a clip.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

VOICE 2: My name's Joe Exoc and this is Sarge.

VOICE 3: It was like a mythical character living out in the middle of [beep] Oklahoma who owned 100 tigers and lions and bears and [bee].

VOICE 4: Hey, man. Love me.

VOICE 5: [Unintelligible] good looking, loves to party and have fun.

VOICE 6: I don't thing you are.

TP: That if you didn't already know is Tiger King the best timed bingeable show I had ever heard of? It came out while everyone's been stuck inside and everyone's been talking about it, meming about it. Kathleen, tell us about Tiger King.

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: Oh, I mean, based on that clip alone. This show is wild. It is a glimpse into big cat breeding. It's got this cast of eccentric characters. And eccentric is an understatement here. There's Joe Exotic. He's a gun toting mullet, rockin like big cat loving owner of. It's called Oklahoma Big Cat Park. He's got multiple husbands, a drug addiction, a bitter rival in Carol Baskin, a woman who may or may not have murdered her husband. It's also a doc series. I don't know if I mentioned that. These are all real people.

TP: I just I feel like I still haven't I still haven't watched yet. I feel like it's been memed so much that I'm nervous. It won't live up to the hype around it.

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: I mean, it will. I really think it will. The means are only is just like a sliver of the madness you get with this show.

TP: For the people who are yelling at their radios: I've already watched it. I've already watched it. What if they liked Tiger King? What else should they watch?

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: Yeah. All right. So if you like watching kind of American or white people doing crazy stuff, you're also going to love McMillian's. It's about the McDonald's Monopoly game scam that happened between 1989 and 2001. So Jerry Jacobson, he was an ex-cop turned security officer. He rigged the game, stole millions of dollars and built this network of co-conspirators across the US. There's this FBI officer character that I truly cannot believe is a real person. Also, wild. Wild is the word I would use to connect these two.

TP: I will say I am watching McMillian's. It is blowing my mind right now. So let's talk about say, if you've already watched all of the crown. If you've seen all your monarchy, you can handle for one Netflix. What's another kind of grand historical drama? People might like?

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: Yes. This show Vaulter just called it the best show you're not watching. It's called Babylon Berlin. So like the Crown is this period drama kind of fills your craving for decadence, gossip, political spectacle. It's a German series set in Berlin in the 1920s. And it follows the events of a freight train hijacking and a cop and a typist kind of team up to uncover this big political conspiracy. It's got drugs, dancing, cabaret. It's a world I didn't really think I cared about. But this is truly like it. It's an achievement in television making. I think it's only one of these shows that, you know, like a madman or like Breaking Bad. People say you have to watch this show if you're a lover of television.

TP: Can I recommend a show to you.

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: Please.

TP: It's about a radio psychologist, lives in Seattle with his dad and his brother, who's a bit neat, drops by all the time. It's really bingible. It's called Frazier.

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: You know what? I did watch it the first time around. Does it hold up?

TP: Just saying it's on Craig. I'm enjoying it. Kathleen, thank you so much.

KATHLEEN NEWMAN-BREMANG: Thanks, Tom. Good to hear your voice.

MG: Tom Power and screen columnist for Cue, Kathleen Newman-Bremang. We'll get those picks up on Twitter. Things that Kathleen says you should spend some time watching. You'll find that on social media, coming up in the hours ahead. Coming up in about 90 seconds time, a conversation with the finance minister, Bill Morneau. He explains what his government is doing to help Canadians who are struggling to make ends meet. Some are already saying it's not enough. You'll hear what he's planning to do and how we're going to pay for this. A lot of money going out the door to support people in the midst of an economic collapse during the COVID-19 pandemic. Bill Morneau, the federal finance minister. Coming up in one and a half minutes, I'm Matt Galloway. This is an extended edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. We'll be right back.

Ukelele Boy

Guests: Liam Calderbank, Delanie Aikens

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

Let's go. Okay.

[Music]

MG: You might have said Elvis has left the building, but he's in the parking lot. On Wednesday, residents of a care home in Summerlin, British Columbia, watched a slender 10 year old boy in a black tuk serenade them outside their window. That young ukelele player is Liam Calderbank. I have him and his mum, Delanie Aikens on the phone from their home in Penticton B.C. Good morning to you both.

DELANIE AIKENS: Morning, Matt. How are you doing?

LIAM CALDERBAND: Good morning.

MG: I'm great, Leon. That was excellent.

LIAM CALDERBAND: Thank you.

MG: Delanie, How did this idea come about to get Liam out there playing in the parking lot?

DELANIE AIKENS: I have a close family friend whose mum made a Facebook post, actually, and she was hoping that she could get some musicians out there to play some music and cheer up the residents in the carriage and the facilities. So I asked Liam if you would like to do it. And he was totally in. So we just made it happen.

MG: Liam, when mum said you need to think about this and this is something that maybe you want to consider. What did you think?

LIAM CALDERBAND: I was just like, okay, this is happening. Like it's really, life is really unpredictable. And this was just kind of a scenario that like you could say that.

DELANIE AIKENS: I was going to say like he's on bored. We've been practicing social distancing throughout spring break, and so it's just a good idea for us to get out and spread a little bit of love and joy to those that might need it the most right now.

MG: Liam, how boring is life right now?

LIAM CALDERBAND: On a scale of one to 10, it'd be probably a five.

MG: That's not bad. That's okay. The ukulele helps. That's the one instrument that I can play. When did you start playing the ukulele?

LIAM CALDERBAND: Last year, I was in a little ukulele shop [unintelligible] in Hawaii for my birthday. And I was walking through like a bunch of walls of ukuleles. And I found just this one ukulele that just brought me so much joy. So I said, mum, this is the one. And like, here we are now.

MG: That's the one for you. How did you decide what it was you were going to play for the audience that was inside that home?

LIAM CALDERBAND: Oh, so I was thinking of songs to play and I just like I knew that I can't Help Falling in Love with You quite fluently. So I could play that one. And then, so a lot of the songs, the songs that I played were mostly for like older, like older folks who kind of were made like back in the 60s or 70s.

MG: Delanie describe the setting where Liam was playing.

DELANIE AIKENS: So we were just outside of this residential care facility and we were kind of they had the whole entrance locked up because the residence, they're on lockdown and no visitors can come in and out. So we were just standing right outside of the window and Carrie had set up face time so that the residents could hear Liam sing and play from the inside of the window.

MG: What was it like for you to watch him play?

DELANIE AIKENS: It was really heartwarming. It was that same time just because, you know, those people are a little bit lonely. And I feel like some of the residents didn't really understand why their loved ones couldn't come and visit. So it was heart warming and heart wrenching all at once. It is beautiful.

MG: What do you think it meant, Liam, for the people who are inside to hear you playing outside?

LIAM CALDERBAND: I think they haven't really got a lot of like action, like these are like they haven't really seen much these like past few weeks. So I think it really just made their day.

MG: Can I ask you to do me a favour, Liam?

LIAM CALDERBAND: Yes.

MG: I want you to play your ukulele as we end the show. Can you do that for me?

LIAM CALDERBAND: Yes.

MG: Okay. Give me a second. I have to end the show, so I'm going to do this thing. I'm speaking with Liam Calderbank, and his mum, Delanie Aikens they're in Penticton. And Delanie, thank you for this, by the way.

DELANIE AIKENS: Yes. Thanks, man.

MG: Thanks for asking Liam to do this. It's a wonderful thing. We're seeing people do extraordinary things in these times and this is an example of it so well done.

DELANIE AIKENS: We all need it right now.

MG: We do indeed. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to the current. Take care of yourself. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Liam, are you ready?

LIAM CALDERBAND: Yes.

MG: Set. Take it away.

SOUNDCLIP

[Liam sings: I Can't Help Falling in Love with You]

The Current Transcript for April 2, 2020

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Finance Minister Bill Morneau, Finance Minister Bill Morneau

Prepping rural hospitals for COVID-19

Releasing some prison inmates is key to reducing COVID-19 spread, say advocates, Lockdown enforcement

Conservative leader Andrew Scheer on the Opposition's role during the pandemic, Rosemary McCarney

Sex writer Dan Savage shares what love and sex from a safe physical distance can look like, Ty Burrell

Samin Nosrat wants to 'keep you company' with her podcast for pantry cooking

Ukelele Boy

Thursday April 2, 2020 Full Transcript

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