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The Current Transcript for April 21, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Every day of my life, I will salute him. I'm gonna miss him. But now I know he's a history. What a day to be a Flydd, man.

MATT GALLOWAY: Guilty, guilty, guilty. The former police officer who put his knee on George Floyd's neck for more than nine minutes was convicted of murder yesterday in the death of a black man from Minneapolis. In a moment, the significance of this verdict in that city and well beyond. Later this morning, if pregnancy wasn't stressful enough, there's now a pandemic to factor in and doctors are concerned.

SOUNDCLIP

We're seeing an increased number of women who are developing covid. You're seeing increasing symptoms, increasing need for hospitalisation, an increased number of critically ill patients.

MG: In 30 minutes. A closer look at the risk factors for covid when pregnant. Plus, they flew a helicopter on Mars and controlled it from here on Earth. In an hour, a conversation with the engineer from Montreal who helped make this happen. We begin, though, in Minneapolis, in the courtroom and on the streets. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Chauvin verdict seen as 'victory' for Black community, but academic calls it an anomaly

Guests: Georgia Fort, Ricky L. Jones

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Count one, we the jury in the above entitled manner as to count one, unintentional second degree murder while committing a felony, find the defendant guilty. Count two, we, the jury in the above entitled manner as to count two, third degree murder, perpetrating an eminently dangerous act. Find the defendant guilty. Count three, we the jury in the above entitled manner as to count three, second degree manslaughter, culpable negligence, creating an unreasonable risk. Find the defendant guilty.

MG: Derek Chauvin knelt on George Floyd's neck for nine minutes and 29 seconds yesterday. A jury found the former Minneapolis police officer guilty of murder.

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[Protestors chanting]

MG: Outside the court, it was a very emotional scene at an historic moment in a country where police are rarely found guilty in the killing of civilians.

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[Protestors chanting]

MG: George Ford's murder defined much of this past year, and many people believe this conviction could define the reckoning of race relations in the United States for years to come. George Floyds brother Brother Philonise, had his reaction.

SOUNDCLIP

Today, we are able to breathe again. It's been a long journey and it's been less than a year. And the thing that comes to my mind is 1955. And to me, he was the first George Floyd, now that was Emmett Till. Times getting harder every day 10 miles away from here, Dante Wright? Yeah, he should still be here. We ought to always understand that we have to much we will have to do this for life. We have to protest because it seems like this is a never ending cycle.

MG: Georgia Fort is a journalist who has been covering the show Trial for the Racial Reckoning Project at the Association of Minnesota Public Educational Radio Stations. And she joins me now once again from Minneapolis, Georgia. Good morning.

GEORGIA FORT: Good morning. Thank you so much for having me.

MG: It's great to have you back on the programme. Describe the mood in Minneapolis yesterday and overnight.

GEORGIA FORT: Well, yesterday, we just saw people pouring into the street. People were celebrating this as a moment in history, a moment of a victory for the people. As you heard in those chants, the people united will never be defeated. I remember standing on the lawn of the government centre right when that verdict came out. Cars started driving by, honking their horns. People in the streets just started screaming. And, you know, throughout the evening, over the course of the next hour or so, I will say I saw about a dozen black men at different times and places actually crying, you know, because no one thought that Derek Chauvin would be found guilty on all charges.

MG: How much was riding on this verdict do you think?

GEORGIA FORT: You know, I think that people were very concerned about the safety of the city if this verdict came through as not guilty, you know, we saw businesses boarded back up. I drove down Lake Street, which is the corridor where most of the damage was done last summer. And I was driving down that corridor to get to the site where George Floyd took his last breath. And for miles, all you saw was plywood over the businesses, people bracing for any negative response if that verdict was not guilty. And so I think that, you know, there was that element when you talk about what was riding on this verdict. But I think it was much deeper than just the property. When you think about the systematic injustices that America has endured and police killings being a symbolism of modern day lynching, y ou know, people wanted to know that if a black man, an unarmed black man, is tortured in the middle of the day, that the person who did it to him would be found guilty. And historically, that has not happened, especially when you talk about the state of Minnesota and you can go back to 1920. And to be frank, it's almost 100 years to the day of when George Floyd was killed, a hundred years before George Floyd died, three black men were lynched in Duluth, Minnesota, which is two hours north. And to this day, no one has ever been held accountable for their murders.

MG: And so, given what you saw yesterday in the courtroom, you know, a police officer being escorted, former police officer being escorted out of the courtroom in handcuffs after being found guilty in the murder of a black man. What does that verdict mean?

GEORGIA FORT: Well, you know, speaking to so many people who are out overwhelmed with joy, many people said that this is a huge step forward, but everybody acknowledged that there's still a long way to go. Think about that. Tomorrow we prepare for the funeral of Daunte Wright. And so while a weight has been lifted, we even know in Columbus this this was crazy. I was at George Floyd Square, the site where Floyd took his last breath. I talked to a seven year old who reminded me that somebody else got killed yesterday in Columbus by the police.

MG: A black teenage girl who was shot by police.

GEORGIA FORT: And this seven year old told me that she was shot four times in the chest. A seven year old, a seven year old black boy, is in the midst of a celebration for justice for George Floyd, and all he can think about at seven is the fact that a teenage girl and he said this, these were his words, they're killing kids. And so, yes, every single person who I talked to, they said that this was a weight lifted. They said that this definitely was a victory for the black community and for America. When you talk about that racial reckoning, how can we really move forward if we're not united? And so, yes, it is a step forward, but there's still a lot of work to be done. Prior to this verdict coming in, we heard community leaders pleading for Joe Biden to intervene. We still, I don't think, have heard him necessarily come in to the city or address, but he did call the Floyd family after the verdict. And so this this case was huge and not just for Minnesota, but for the country.

MG: Just in the last couple of minutes. I mean, how are you processing this as a black woman who has been covering this story? We know that people have talked about the weight of this and the exhaustion that people not just in Minneapolis feel as the story, to your point, repeats itself. So how are you processing this?

GEORGIA FORT: You know, I think you hit the nail on the head. Exhaustion. You know, and it wasn't just the trial. I've covered a lot of murder trials, but the trial in combination with the killing of Dante Wright and the civil unrest that followed was a lot. You know, you're in court during the day or you're covering the proceedings during the day and then in the evening you're covering the protest. And after the protest, you're covering the press conferences in the middle of the night. And then at 8 a.m., you're doing it again day after day after day. And so when the jury started to deliberate for me, I crashed. I remember getting home and sitting down on the couch with my three year old and I just fell asleep. I had been burning the candle at both ends and I woke up in a panic because I fell asleep earlier than what I hoped. And it was still within the hours that the jury could release a verdict. So this was the day before. This was Monday. And so I just woke up in a panic and I was like, oh, my goodness, did I miss the verdict? And, you know, I had not. But, you know, it speaks to that level of exhaustion. And I know I'm not the only person who was feeling that. I think that the city leadership, the mayor had been feeling that the governor had been feeling that the chief of police had been feeling that the community had been feeling that because everyone who had been working on this issue and other journalists, of course, too, right. Just burning the candle at both ends, trying to cover the trial, trying to cover what's happening with Dontae. Right. And although we had a moment to take a breath, tomorrow we're right back at it. We we I have a funeral to cover. You know, Dante Wright's family will be grieving and mourning tomorrow, saying their final goodbyes. And and so while this is a step forward, Minneapolis still has a long way to go.

MG: Georgia, it's great to speak with you again. I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

GEORGIA FORT: Likewise. Thank you so much.

MG: MG: Georgia Foret is a freelance journalist who's been covering the Chauvin trial for the Racial Reckoning Project at the Association of Minnesota Public Educational Radio Stations.

SOUNDCLIP

We don't find pleasure in this. We don't celebrate a man going to jail. We would have rather George be alive, but we celebrate that we, because young people, white and black, some castigated many that are here tonight, marched and kept marching and kept going. Many of them look down on. But they kept marching and wouldn't let this die. And this is an assurance to them that if we don't give up, that we can win some rounds.

MG: The Reverend Al Sharpton reacting to the verdict yesterday outside the court. Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison had this to say.

SOUNDCLIP

I would not call today's verdict justice, however, because justice implies true restoration. But it is accountability, which is the first step towards justice and now the cause of justice is in your hands. And when I say your hands, I mean the hands of the people of the United States.

MG: Ricky L. Jones is a professor and chair of Pan African Studies at the University of Louisville in Louisville, Kentucky, Ricky L. Jones. Good morning to you.

RICKY L. JONES: Good to talk to you again. How are you doing?

MG: MG: It's great to have you back on the program. What was your reaction when you heard the guilty verdict yesterday?

RICKY L. JONES: I wasn't as excited as a lot of people are just because I study the history of race in the country for a living. I mean, it's been a part of my entire life. So I saw the decision as an anomalous event that was the result of the convergence of a number of extraordinary factors. So I understand the jubilation of civil rights luminaries, of citizens, of black people and our allies all over the country. But it wasn't something that excited me as much as it excited a lot of people. But I'm trying not to be a curmudgeon, as I usually am and be more positive about it. But unfortunately, yesterday I was not as positive as a lot of folks are.

MG: You wrote, the tendency of pundits and others to overstate the systemic impact of this conviction is disturbing. Tell me more about that. And what do you mean?

RICKY L. JONES: Yes, and because it doesn't contextualize everything, you know, the idea that this is somehow a moment in which America is turning the corner, a sea change on race or sea, change in how the American justice system handles black people because of this one decision, I find that to be an overstatement. And I find that to be overpromising where we are on the racial landscape of the country. The reality of the situation is when you look at what happened to George Floyd, because of technology, you know, we saw we saw with our own eyes, even though his attorneys want to tell us that our eyes were lying to us, we saw Derek Chauvin put his knee on that that man's neck for not then it's a game to be called out for. His mother begged for his life. He told him he couldn't breathe. You know, that that was videoed. We saw it. We had people to witness it, you know, on site. We had all of that. And we had a black attorney general and the person of Keith Ellison, who is an extraordinary person, you know, how often do we have these things present? And even with that, there was still doubt about what would happen to Derek Chauvin. So my my question is, you know, when black people are killed again and as I was writing that article yesterday, another young black person was killed. What happens in the next case? So I don't think this marks, you know, some great change in the American justice system where black people are concerned. You know, it's very, very sad that folk have to fight so hard to get a conviction, which is obviously was obvious on May 25th of 2020, what Derek Chauvin was. It was obvious that he murdered a man. So it it seems somewhat strange when you step back to think of why people are so surprised and elated that a clear murderer is convicted of murder.

MG: So if this isn't that moment that a lot of people are saying it is and they've invested time and energy in saying that this is some sort of, you know, turning point after the summer that we saw not just in the United States but around the world. If it's not that moment, then what happens now? Not not just in the U.S. again, but well beyond your borders?

RICKY L. JONES: Well, as I wrote, America is a very sophisticated, oppressive system and sophisticated oppressive systems don't maintain themselves by overt brute force all the time. You simply can't do that. That's untenable. They're more subtle, right, and there's more. So we have a history in this country of taking one step back and -- one step forward and two steps back. I mean, you have the civil war and the 13th Amendment would end slavery, but then you have poll taxes, you have grandfather clauses, you have intimidation, you have outright murder. So you have reconstruction. But then you have the [unintelligible] compromise. You have black migration out of the South into the Midwest and the far west. But then you have Plessy versus Ferguson, you have Jim Crow, which we still have different iterations of Jim Crow, certainly in slavery. But then you have an explosion in the prison industrial complex where black people are concerned. So there are always these shifts that that happen in this country. So there is no single moment that we can really point to and say, hey, this is it, this is the moment that will bring us equality. Until we have truth, a true engagement of history and how our system functions here nationally, but also internationally when you talk about race. But America is the greatest example because America is the greatest contradiction. We say we're leader leaders, decency and democracy and humanity and equality, but we're really not. That's the way I think we have to engage this on the overall landscape before we can kind of jump and say, hey, you know, this is where we've turned the corner and everything is going to be better.

MG: What about police? I mean, one of the remarkable moments in this trial was a chief of police testifying against a former officer. Do you see that? And as any point to any degree of a turning point?

RICKY L. JONES: Not really, because, again, it goes back to my idea that Chauvin took it too far. You know, he just simply took it too far. You can't use that type of brute force openly and notoriously for everybody to see. It sets up a situation where police will come out and support that openly, then people can say, you know, you are a nakedly condoning the open murder of citizens. And if they do that, the question is, what won't you do? That will put police in a terrible, terrible position, even though they have done similar things before without the optics, you know, people being able to see what was done. So I think it is good in this case that you had the chief and officers of the line condemning what Derek Chauvin did. But I'm saying this is not really unusual behaviour that police inflict on black communities all over the country. We just saw it this time and there was no way to explain it away. So I'm going to wait because I think that institutional culture amongst police runs so deep where they protect one another quite often in bad, bad behaviour that I'm not sure that is going to change right now because of the Derek Chauvin trial. I think Chauvin just took it too far. He couldn't be excused.

MG: What happens then to the. The uprising that we saw on streets around the world from black and brown folk, but from a range of people who were out calling for change, if this is not that moment, that that is a pivot point, what happens? I mean, Al Sharpton was saying that it's up to Americans to lead this real change. And you could add Canadians and people in the UK and beyond what happens to to what was happening out on the streets last summer.

RICKY L. JONES: They keep going. Right. And that's the sadness of being black and that's the sadness of recognising black humanity if you are not black in America and around the world, but let's stick to America for a second. The fact that we know we understand that people have to continue to leverage that type of inordinate pressure on the system to get any modicum of justice tell you about the terror, you know, the stress, the exhaustion that we experience by being black. We understand that the system does not necessarily not even not necessarily. The system is not inclined to be just towards black people. And so black people and their allies, again, across race have to constantly leverage the system, which tells you this is a system that does not necessarily work. It's a system that has to be forced to work. And we have a system that has to be forced to work in that way when people are murdered before our eyes and we have to have a serious and sober engagement of what in God's name is going on with that system. So people understand that they do have to stay out in the streets. People understand they do have to continue to fight. And the fact that they have to stay out in the streets and continue to fight tells you how bad the situation is in which we live.

MG: We just have about 30 seconds left. What will show you that change is is actually happening?

RICKY L. JONES: You know, I really don't know. I don't know if there will be a single thing. I do know I have a 13 year old daughter. You know, my daughter just turned 13. And I'm hoping that we have a world in which she can enter into with more decency, humanity and equality. And I don't have to worry about burying her after a police officer shoot her in the chest four times. And so I don't know any single event that will make me feel that way, but I'm hoping we'll get that we'll get there before, you know, I leave this earth.

MG: Ricky, good to speak with you, as always. Thank you.

RICKY L. JONES: You too, my friend.

MG: Ricky L. Jones, professor and chair of Penn African Studies at the University of Louisville in Louisville, Kentucky. CBC News is next. And then.

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I would personally love to see pregnant women have access to the vaccine now because of their increased vulnerability.

MG: Troubling new numbers show pregnant people not only getting covid, but being sent into intensive care units. In six minutes, the push to get pregnant Canadians vaccinated and protected as this third wave of covid continues. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

Third wave of COVID-19 posing increased risk to pregnant people

Guests: Danika Jorgensen-Skakum, Dr. Deborah Money, Dr. Tali Bogler

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MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Still to come, the Canadian helping make history at NASA and on Mars. Plus, Gibraltar's vaccine rollout that has brought the country back to normal. Those stories coming up in 30 minutes. But first, getting covid while pregnant. Ask anyone who's been pregnant, and most will tell you there's a fair amount of stress that goes with the experience now, role in a global pandemic, with the rise in cases across the country, a troubling new trend is starting to emerge. The number of pregnant Canadians in hospital with covid is climbing. Earlier this week, a Toronto hospital reported that almost half of its patients in the intensive care unit were pregnant. Doctors estimate that more than 4000 pregnant Canadians have contracted covid. Danika Jorgensen Skakum is one of them. Dannica. Good morning.

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for being here. How are you feeling?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: I'm feeling as good as one can, I think, in this third trimester.

MG: Tell me about when you first got diagnosed with covid, what made you thought maybe you might have had covid?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: It was a pretty wild time, I developed a little bit of a sore throat over the weekend and, you know, we thought, OK, we better go get tested, my partner and me. And so we had a dumpster testing centre and I thought, there's no way I'm going to have it, because the previous two weeks I'd only been to my doctor's office and to get blood drawn, both things I had to do for my pregnancy. So when we found out that I had contracted it about four days later, it was a total shock.

MG: And did the symptoms escalate or do they stay pretty mild?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: No, they they did escalate. I lost my sense of smell with it, my sense of appetite, which wasn't great at the time anyway, I was just ending my first trimester and the fatigue and decreasing respiratory capacity, I think, where the worst side effects and the longest lasting.

MG: Tell me a bit more about that. I mean, the respiratory capacities is so troubling at the best of times, let alone when you're pregnant.

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: That's right. Yeah. It was pretty wild to go from once I was able to leave isolation just to realise, you know, getting up the stairs. Was that more difficult or going on our daily walk? You know, it was harder than it used to be. And yeah, we do know that with pregnancy, your body and your respiratory system is already working over time. So it's a definite, definite risk for pregnant women.

MG: How bad did it get?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: For me, I wasn't hospitalised and I'm really grateful for that, and I was able to recover at home, but I think I mean, my midwife says that I'm probably still experiencing covid long haul symptoms because some of the fatigue and the loss of appetite and and the respiratory issues, you know, they aren't necessarily explained by pregnancy, but it is hard to tell because, again, with pregnancy, your whole body kind of goes haywire.

MG: You mentioned your partner. I mean, how did their life change?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: Oh, it was scary for both of us. I think. I mean, we were remarkably lucky in that they did not test positive for covid, despite being so close to me. So that is a small miracle in and of itself, but I mean, it is pretty scary to be the partner of someone who has covid. And even a lot of our friends and family, you know, they really thought I was at death's door. I didn't feel that way myself. But, you know, to hear that from other people, I imagine is also quite scary.

MG: How much did you know about the dangers of covid while pregnant? I mean, is that something, in the midst of this pandemic, and we're all learning things kind of minute by minute, it seems like. But was that something that was at all on your radar?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: It was because as soon as we got pregnant, it became something of a concern because we started evaluating how we needed to change the way that we were living and the kinds of social interactions we were going to have. And like I said, I hadn't even been to a grocery store for quite some time because I was really trying to stay away. And at that time, Alberta's case numbers were quite high. And we knew then, too, that contracting covid while pregnant can, you know, would result in lower birth weights and also premature delivery, which were, of course, both things that we wanted to avoid. And I'd heard from other women that contracting covid made them automatically high risk. And as someone pursuing a home birth, that's definitely a category I'm trying to stay away from.

MG: Do you have any idea as to how you might have caught covid?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: No, I don't. And I wish that I did know because both times I was at the doctor's office or to get my blood drawn, I was masked, of course, and everyone else around me was also masked. But I think that's the most worrying thing about covid is that because it's, you know, aerosol related, it doesn't have to be necessarily me touching some surface somewhere. It can be just in the air. And that's a pretty frightening thing to grapple with.

MG: Have you got the vaccination?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: I did, I got the vaccine last Monday.

MG: If you had been able to get vaccinated earlier in your pregnancy, this is again the subject of great discussion in terms of when and if even pregnant people should should get vaccinated. But had you been able to get the vaccination earlier in your pregnancy, would you have done that?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: I certainly hope so. When I was thinking about getting the vaccine, I was hesitant. I think a lot of new mothers and parents are. But after talking to my midwife and hearing from other health care providers about the severity of covid during pregnancy and talking to my midwife about that, too, that was sort of enough for me to make that decision.

MG: Can I ask what you were hesitant about?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: Yeah, I think, you know, I'm part of a lot of moms groups as a first time mom, and that's really how I get the majority of my information. And people were sharing a lot of conflicting information. And I think there's just a fear. You know, when you're pregnant, you have to be careful about everything that you put into your body. And so getting a vaccine that there are no long. I guess, long term study for, was of concern to me, and I was worried about the impact on baby. But what really changed things for me was knowing from my midwife that we don't know the long term effects of necessarily the covid vaccine, but we do know that there are severe and life threatening consequences to contracting covid, particularly in your third trimester, which is where I am now. And of course, that's what we're seeing in Ontario.

MG: You have a lot going on, and yet you've woken up early to talk to us, why is it important for you to share what you're going through?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: I think hearing the stories about pregnant people being intubated and going through tremendous trauma, I mean, that is definitely one reason for doing this. But I'm also really passionate about the ways that our babies aren't just- I mean, they are going to grow up in community. And I want my baby to grow up in a community where everyone is a part of it. And I'm really concerned about those who are refusing to get vaccinated. They may still pass on the virus or they may get other people sick and especially marginalised folks, front line workers, essential workers, health care professionals. That's of great concern to me. But also, I, I think that people should know if you contract covid and say it's not a big deal for you as a pregnant person. I mean, that's great for you and your family. But not only can you maybe pass it on or get someone else infected, but you also are then prevented from accessing your health care team and your health care support. So during the time that I contracted covid, I had to miss an ultrasound, which of course is really important. That specific points for pregnancy.

MG: When are you due?

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: I'm due early July.

MG: I wish you the best of health and I really appreciate you speaking with us this morning. Thank you very much.

DANIKA JORGENSEN SKAKUM: Thank you so much. And thank you so much. Also to Georgia and Dr. Jones previously for their work as well.

MG: Excellent. Thanks so much. Thank you. Danica Jorgenson skycam is in her final trimester of pregnancy. She was in Edmonton this morning. Dr. Wendy Wittle is a maternal foetal medicine specialist at Mount Sinai Hospital in Toronto. She's leading the covid and pregnancy response from that hospital. And here's what she has been seeing in their ICU.

SOUNDCLIP

We currently have six women who are pregnant or recently delivered, and that represents about 20 to 30 percent of the beds that we have in the ICU. We're seeing an increased number of women who are developing covid. We're seeing increasing symptoms, increasing need for hospitalisation, an increased number of critically ill patients. These women are much more symptomatic than in the previous two waves. So this wave that is predominantly driven by the covid variance of concern is creating sicker women with increasing needs for hospitalisation and intensive care.

MG: Dr. Tali Bogler is the chair of the Family Medicine Obstetrics Team at St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto. Also, the cocreator of the Pandemic Pregnancy Guide that you can find on Instagram. Dr. Deborah Money is a professor of obstetrics, gynaecology and infectious diseases at UBC. Good morning to you both. Good morning, Dr. Bogler. What do you thinking as you hear Dr. Whittle and her team in terms of what they're dealing with in the ICU at Mount Sinai Hospital?

DR. TALI BOGLER: Yeah, first of all, thanks for having me. It is it's devastating to hear these stories. You know, we're seeing the same we're seeing the same thing here in Ontario. It's been reported in the news over the last week that there have been increased admissions to the ICU. Pregnant women who have contracted covid-19 are getting more sick. And we're seeing higher numbers in our ICU here, at least here in Toronto. And we know also overall in Ontario,

MG: Dr. Money, what are you seeing? You've been tracking this in terms of the number of pregnant people getting covid across the country. What is the situation like elsewhere in this country?

DR. DEBORAH MONEY: Well, we're definitely seeing higher rates of infection that's been climbing throughout the pandemic, and this third wave is definitely affecting the age group where women are pregnant. And and unfortunately, it's not surprising that we're seeing higher rates of infection. And then the consequences are that a small proportion, but a very serious proportion are getting hospitalised and requiring ICU care.

MG: Dr. Bogler, what have you heard? I mean, can you describe as much as you can, the experience of a family that that you have encountered as they have gone through this experience?

DR. TALI BOGLER: Yes. So first of all, on our pandemic pregnancy, I now have over 24000 people that have either been pregnant or recently delivered during the pandemic. So we are getting an influx of stories from people that have either had covid or are just anxious right now and not knowing what to do and especially anxious since they don't have access to the vaccine in certain places in Canada. From the stories that I'm hearing and I can speak about one in particular, again, just like Danika was mentioning, that she didn't know exactly where she contracted covid-19. It's a very similar story that we're hearing right now. I think during the pandemic, we were, you know, in the past year, we were able to sort of better categorise low risk exposure or high risk exposure. It's becoming a little bit more difficult now because it is so prevalent and people are getting that almost anywhere. And so these are the stories we're hearing. I don't know how I got it necessarily. You know, when we think about pregnant individuals, they often some of them have families and older kids who are in day-care or their partner might be a front facing worker and has to work outside of the home. So even if the person themselves can stay at home. Well, what about the other kids and what about their family members? And so those are the stories we're hearing somebody recently, you know, low risk in the sense of no other underlying medical conditions other than just being pregnant, young, older child wasn't even in day-care, but they had potentially some exposure to very low risk and and got covid-19 in her third trimester and became very sick quite quickly, was admitted to the ICU requiring high levels of oxygen. And the issue with that, and I know Dr. Money can speak about this a bit more, but often when when a woman is that sick, the only thing to actually treat her and literally save her is actually delivering, you know, potentially earlier than intended. So we're seeing also because of that potentially premature delivery and premature babies.

MG: Dr. Money, do you want to pick up on that? I mean, in terms of what impact on pregnancy covid could have?

DR. DEBORAH MONEY: Yes, we've been tracking it quite carefully from the world literature and also the Canadian experience through our Ken covid surveillance programme and and what we are seeing consistently are higher, not dramatically higher, but higher rates of preterm birth. We don't some of these are related to delivery deliberately done for medical or obstetrical problems. And about half of them are are are related to going into preterm labour. So there's probably multiple factors affecting that. So about 12 percent of pregnant women who acquire covid, even those that don't get very sick, are having premature deliveries, which, of course, is of concern.

MG: What impact does pregnancy have on how sick you can get with covid? Because if you're talking about covid in the impact on pregnancy, that's one thing. But do we know anything about what impact, as I say, pregnancy could have on on how sick you would get with covid? Dr. Money.

DR. DEBORAH MONEY: I think we're I think we're still trying to understand that fully, but we have known previously that pregnant women who get serious respiratory illnesses like the the influenza H1N1 pandemic, SARS and murres, we we've known and and historically influenza, we've known that the condition of being pregnant with the modulation of the immune response and actually just the physiology of being pregnant, particularly in later stages with the compromise of the respiratory system, does put pregnant women at higher risk of complications. And and we're seeing this play out with the covid-19 pandemic, with the serious complications in the ICU admissions most dramatically in Ontario.

MG: Dr. Bogler, what do we know about the importance of prioritising pregnant people when it comes to vaccines? Again, Danika was talking about getting the shot and some ambivalence, some hesitancy that she had, but she came around to that and is grateful that she got the shot. Should pregnant people be prioritised for the job?

DR. TALI BOGLER: Yeah. So right now in Ontario and every province is a little bit different for right now in Ontario, pregnant women are prioritised in the sense that they have been included in the Phase two vaccine rollout. But the issue with the phase two vaccine rollout is there's three categories. There is the highest risk, high risk and the at risk group. And currently pregnancy falls in the at risk group. That third category and the vaccine rollout, as we know it, has had, you know, many issues and bumps along the way. And we're not yet at that third category, the at risk group. So many people, given what we're seeing right now, especially here in Ontario and the higher numbers of pregnant women getting more sick, are advocating that we need to bump up some pregnancy, bump up, but literally bump up pregnancy and to and to at least the high priority group right now.

MG: What would that mean? I mean, when would someone who's pregnant be in your best case scenario? When would they be eligible to get the vaccine? When should they get the shot?

DR. TALI BOGLER: In terms of when during the pregnancy?

MG: Yeah, I mean, there's the categories and that can mean, as you said, any number of things in terms of risk. But if they're thinking of the arc of their pregnancy, when when should they be thinking about the shot?

DR. TALI BOGLER: Yeah, that's a good question. So right now, you know, some people are often worried about the first trimester because, you know, there's a higher risk of miscarriage in general, nothing to do with covid-19. And some people are a little bit hands off approach in the first trimester. But there is nothing to say that the vaccine would not be safe in first trimester at all. There's you know, we have lots of data now, real world data, especially in the United States. Over 60,000 pregnant women in the United States have received the vaccine thus far, and there have been no adverse pregnancy outcomes to date. And that includes first trimester women who receive the vaccine. So there's really nothing to say to recommend not getting it in the first trimester. I think it's incredibly important for women in the second and third trimester to get the vaccine. We know there's probably an optimal time also in terms of protection to the baby when antibodies could be passed onto the baby. And we know, as Dr. Money was mentioning, especially women in the third trimester are more at risk of getting more more sick. So they're especially important in terms of getting the vaccine. So if I were to prioritise, I would say definitely in the second and third trimester. But if somebody has a high risk of exposure themselves or family members and need to be protected as soon as possible, I would certainly consider getting it in the first trimester as well.

MG: Dr. Moneyy, is there any risk in getting vaccinated when pregnant?

DR. DEBORAH MONEY: There's absolutely no risk that's been documented around vaccines in pregnancy in general, and there's nothing that we've seen in the experience so far of concern with the covid vaccine. So I would take it a little step further and just say that pregnant women should get the vaccine when they have the opportunity to do it regardless of the trimester, because the most important thing is protecting them from the covid-19 illness. And the vaccines are very effective and they appear to be entirely safe.

MG: You understand the hesitancy that someone like Danika might have. And again, it's it's what she's hearing in in conversations online and through friends and colleagues.

DR. DEBORAH MONEY: Yes, we hear frequently of this hesitancy and appreciate where women are coming from because, you know, the mantra is don't take any medications, don't do anything that could be of concern during your pregnancy. But I think we've got to change the narrative, particularly around vaccines. Vaccines are beneficial to pregnant women. We have finally got to the point pre covid that women were understanding that the influenza vaccine was a benefit to them in pregnancy and it was important to deliberately take that vaccine in pregnancy. Same with pertussis vaccine, which we routinely give now. So I think we have to really change the perspective of pregnant women to to believe that these are beneficial things to take to prevent illness.

MG: Dr. Bogler, how are you addressing this through the guide that's on Instagram?

DR. TALI BOGLER: Yeah, you know, we're doing this conversation after an evening that is actually quite unfortunate for us. So basically what's happened is there have been social media accounts, anti vaccine mom groups that have essentially targeted our Instagram account and have suggested to their followers that they should report our account. And so basically yesterday evening, given how much anxiety and questions so many women have around the vaccine, we offered to do a live Q&A and just answer all the questions so that we can sort of combat some of the misinformation and reassure pregnant people that the vaccine is safe. And what happened because of these other groups and social media groups? Our account was actually restricted last night, an hour before we were supposed to do the live. And we can't actually use our account right now during a week where it is so critical to help educate and support and inform pregnant women between.

MG: You tweeted that you felt defeated by that.

DR. TALI BOGLER: Well, you know, I'm personally getting attacked on my personal account, anti vaccine comments people are writing on and platforms under my name. And, you know, I can I can live with that. I you know, I don't you know, I can ignore trolls, but the fact that our Instagram account that has been supporting 24000 women who have been either pregnant or currently pregnant at such a critical time to really provide evidence based, reliable information from doctors and to be restricted because of anti boxers is just so disheartening to me.

MG: And people are just desperate for information. Right? I mean, it speaks you talk about how popular the account is, aside from the trolls and the abuse that you're getting. People are looking for information.

DR. TALI BOGLER: Well, yeah, you know, as we know, there's so much misinformation out there, you know, some I've looked at some of the anti vaccine man groups and I'm just, you know, surprised what they're putting out and how many followers they had and that those accounts aren't restricted. So here we are, three physicians who are staying up to date, basically volunteering our time every night just to provide the most up to date evidence and to really support people and make people feel reassured about this decision. And our account got restricted and I don't know how we're going to get it back.

MG: Dr. Money, what are you most concerned about just in the last minute or so that we have, this third wave continues and we're seeing cases spiking in many, many parts of this country right now. Given what you were saying about ICU admissions and hospital admissions for pregnant peopl,. What are you most concerned about?

DR. TALI BOGLER: Well, I'm certainly very worried that the with the numbers going up, we're going to see more and more women with this infection. The obviously the worst case scenario is hospitalisation and ICU admission, but even moderate disease that is managed at home can still have adverse consequences for the pregnancy. So, you know, I'm hoping that pregnant women will will follow the actual data and the science and and do the best they can to avoid acquiring covid through the public health measures. But take the opportunity of the vaccine if they have that, because that's the best way to prevent this infection.

MG: I really appreciate speaking with you both. And Dr. Bogler, keep in touch and let us know about that account and when, because I know there are a lot of people who will be looking for the information that you're providing. So when that is available, just let us know. OK.

DR. TALI BOGLER: Thank you.

MG: Great. It's good to talk to you both. Thank you very much.

DR. DEBORAH MONEY: Thank you for having me.

DR. TALI BOGLER: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Dr. Tali Bogler is chair of Family Medicine Obstetrics Team at St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto, also cocreator of the pandemic pregnancy guide that you can find on Instagram. Dr. Deborah Money is a professor of obstetrics, gynaecology and infectious diseases at UBC. We would love to hear from you. Are you expecting if so, how has this pandemic affected your pregnancy? Email us The Current at CBC dot seei. Well, coming up after your regional update will head to Gibralter. Life is basically back to normal there thanks to intense lockdowns followed by a vaccination programme, to tell you more about that. But first, en route, a detour to Mars where a Canadian is helping expand the reaches of humanity. Tell you about it in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

This Montreal-born engineer helped fly a helicopter on Mars. She says it's a win for diversity here on Earth; and life is inching back to normal in Gibraltar

Guests: Farah Alilbay, Samantha Sacramento

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current

SOUNDCLIP

And today's reporting having performed spin up, take off, hover, descent, landing, touchdown and spindown.

[Applause]

MG: This week marked a first for space exploration for the first time ever, a human made aircraft flew on another planet on Monday. As you just heard, the ingenuity helicopter took off from the surface of Mars, hovered, spun and then landed. It was a quick flight, but it took years to get to this point. Farrah Alibay was in that room cheering along with her fellow engineers who made this happen. She is a systems engineer and integration lead for the ingenuity helicopter at the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory. She's from Montreal. Good morning. Good morning. Take me into that room. What was the moment like that we just heard?

FARAH ALIBAY: It was definitely a very happy moment and a moment of relief. I mean, as you mentioned, it had been years in the making. So and to give you a little sort of background on how things happen on Mars, the flight itself had happened about two hours before we got the data. We don't get the data in real time because Mars is so far. So what happened is the helicopter did its flight by itself, set the data back to the rover, the rover, when an orbiter came overhead, sent it to the orbiter, and then it got back to Earth. So it was a little strange because we knew everything that happened. We knew there was nothing we could do. And about three thirty five in the morning, we get the stamp of data from the orbiter and all rapidly trying to decipher what was happening. Each of us had our part in our analysis and that was the quickest analysis we've ever done. I'm pretty sure it is because within 10 minutes we had that and so we had our image and the video down and it was definitely a moment of relief. But also I think for me, a little bit of disbelief. Right. You test these things in the lab, you know the physics should work, but until you do it on Mars, you know, you don't quite believe it until you see the data coming from Mars and you're like, wow, we you know, we pull this off.

MG: How difficult is it to fly something on Mars?

FARAH ALIBAY: Difficult. So, you know, on the one hand, the Martian gravity is lower than the Earth's gravity. It's about a third of Earth's gravity. So in that sense, you're lighter on Mars. But on the other hand, the Martian atmosphere is only one percent of the Earth's atmosphere. And so when we're flying, what allows the plane to fly is lift and lift is is that force essentially that's created by the air. And the whole thing comes down to is it's a balance of that lift with your weight. So if you don't have as much lift, you have to be lighter. So the way that the helicopter works on Mars is that it's actually really, really light. It only weighs one point eight kilograms. So on I guess on Mars, it's still a massive 120 kilogram, but it's a third lighter. But its blades are about four feet long now, about 1.2 metres long, and they spin at tens of thousands of revolutions per minute. And that sweet combination that right there is just about right to get us to fly on Mars.

MG: What is your role in this? I've heard you describe yourself as the choreographer.

FARAH ALIBAY: And yeah, so I am on the Rover team. I am one of the perseverence engineers, but I work at the interface of the two missions. So. So, yeah, if you think of it as the two missions being dancers and musicians, they each have their part in what we're doing on Mars. They have to wake up at the right time to talk to each other, the right time. They live on different alarm clocks that as I mentioned, the helicopter has to transfer data through the rover. The rover has to do imaging and transfer commands back. All of that has to be neatly choreographed so that we can pull off a flight like yesterday or Monday. I guess I the have time. So I am I am that person and the person that that does all of that interfacing and make sure basically enables that that mission. I was also key in the team that deployed the helicopter to the surface of Mars that earlier this month as well.

MG: On the wall in the room that you work is this phrase dare mighty things. What does that mean?

FARAH ALIBAY: So that saying came from from a presidential speech a few decades ago, but got resurrected by our previous lab director, Charles Valachi, and that he was one of the people that was key in getting the ingenuity helicopter funded. He really believed in small, nimble teams that do many things, that do great things. And really the thing is about we as, you know, our labs. But the Jet Propulsion Lab, which is which is that the lab, the NASA lab that that does all these Mars mission is that we don't do the ordinary. We don't do the things that everyone else has done. We are in the business of doing mad things. So trying crazy things like a helicopter alarm and it comes with its own risks. We even had problems with the helicopters in the past couple weeks. We did not know if we were going to succeed. But the whole point is that you won't achieve great things if you don't try. So that that is what that thing is about. It's about it's about our culture. It's about the innovation that we try to bring about. We take those risks. We dream the crazy things and we go attempt them. And on days like this week, it pays off.

MG: What is it like to be in that room? And you've said these are your words: I look pretty different. I'm brown, I have coloured hair. I have a weird accent. Every room I step into, I stand out. That used to scare me. So what is it like to be in that room and how do you get over that fear, as you say, of standing out?

FARAH ALIBAY: Yeah, I think I mean, we were pretty lucky with the ingenuity mission, actually, that there was quite a bit of diversity in that room. And I think you saw that probably if you watched the video, you know, a part of what I was thinking when I was in that room was I was like, wow, this is this is the power of immigration and diversity. If you looked at that room, a lot of us were immigrants to the United States, a lot of us had different backgrounds. And look, what diverse teams can achieve. And I thought that was just the you know, it was the epitome of that of demonstrating the importance of diversity on teams. But but, yeah, as you mentioned, that's not always the case. There's a lot of times where I still write in the domain of stemware where I stand out. And it used to really bother me, especially when I was younger. I think when you're younger, you want to fit in and when you're new to a job, all you want to do is fit in and you don't want to be outside of that box. But I've learnt over time part of it because of the culture that we have on that of innovation, of change, of adapting. I've learnt over time that I do a better job if I present myself as who I am. And eventually people accept me for who I am and and all that all that matters at the end is my contribution to the team, no matter who I am and how I present myself. And that's been a journey for me. I think it's been a long journey for a lot of engineers. It's not always the most welcoming field for minorities, but I'm also working to help change that. And that's why I spend the time talking with the media, talking with kids in schools, presenting myself as who I am, sometimes is still difficult to step out of that comfort zone and be who I am. But I find it so important, especially when I hear back from some parents or or students to reach out to me and say, hey, we really look up to you. Or, Hey, my kid is building a paper aeroplane in the in the living room right now because you talked about this. And that, I think is all worth it because it will lead to more diverse teams eventually.

MG: I was going to say, are you comfortable being that kind of role model for that kid who looks like you, who could have never imagined her or himself in that room and then sees you in the room and thinks, well, if she can do it, I can do it?

FARAH ALIBAY: It is so important to me. I mean, that is why I spend this time. It's I didn't have those role models growing up. And they are. And I wish I had it because it took me so long to even find this path. I was fascinated by space growing up but didn't see anyone like me in those roles. And so I didn't really put two and two together that this was a place where I would fit maybe onto my later teenage years. And even through college, I was studying this. I was like, is this really a place for me? And so I absolutely think it's really important. Not that I have achieved my dreams now, but I'm living that dream job. It's my duty to share that and to to show to everyone else how wonderful it can be to be able to follow your passion, follow your curiosity and be, you know, and and be in a career that you're passionate about. I mean, it's kind of crazy. I still can't believe that I get to do this every day. I get paid to fly a helicopter on Mars and drive around on Mars. That is pretty cool.

MG: All right. What are we going to learn from flying a helicopter around on Mars? I mean, what is this thing going to teach us?

FARAH ALIBAY: So it's a technology demonstration mission. So the whole point of this mission was to demonstrate that we could even fly on something that we were sure about until a few days ago. And so over here, over the next couple of weeks, it's got about two weeks left in its mission. We're going to try to attempt more and more ambitious flights. We're trying to do up to five flights. And so on Monday, we took off and hovered and came back down. We're going to do longer flights, go faster, traverse horizontally over the terrain, take that data back to that imagery back. And we're basically just trying to learn as much as we can in order to enable more complex missions eventually. So the goal is that this is a stepping stone for for aerial missions on Mars or on another planet. And so, eventually will want to do science missions or maybe go through areas that rovers can't go to. So we're going to learn as much as we can now. And you can use the analogy of rovers for that. That's how rovers that started. So, journer was a small tech demo on the Pathfinder mission, again with a similar small team that was like, yeah, I think we could drive on Mars. Let's go try that. And they did on this tiny little rover. And now look at what we've done with Rover Exploration on Mars and what we're doing, the perseverance. So I can certainly think that ingenuity might have a similar legacy where a couple of decades from now, you may be seeing all sorts of aerial vehicles on Mars or another. Planets, you know, exploring those worlds.

MG: Which planet would be next?

FARAH ALIBAY: Well, so if we're talking about aerial exploration, there's already a mass is already planning a mission to Titan, which has a really thick atmosphere. So actually, the the the challenge is that a little bit easier in terms of flying, but as a firefly, a mission going out to Titan, and I think it gives there in about a decade. So that will be another one. I am sure that with Mars we will be sending other aerial vehicles there as well. You have to find that sweet spot of having of having the right atmosphere to fly. But in terms of myself and exploration, I mean, DPLA is already planning a mission to Europa, which is one of the moons of Jupiter that has that has an ocean, an ocean world below its surface. So and it's planning also a mission to psyche, which is a metal asteroid. So there's all sorts of really cool exploration in the solar system going on right now. I think we're seeing a little bit of a revival there of exploration. And I'm just loving that the general public is getting really interested in following along with us. I mean, I could feel it in the room with us on Monday because I knew that so many people and for me especially knew that many Canadians were watching. And I can tell you that that energy that people are putting out there is really helping us with these long and difficult nights.

MG: What an amazing thing you get to do for a living. It's a great pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much. And we will talk again when perhaps the helicopter flies even further. Further. Thanks.

FARAH ALIBAY: Thank you. Have a great day. And you for

MG: Farah Alibay is a systems engineer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, originally from Montreal and now living in Pasadena, California.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One, my name is Matt Galloway. Not going to joke, thinking about being covid free of life, returning to what things were like in the before time is pretty difficult right now. This third wave is very dark in many parts of the country. There are, though, other parts of the world beginning to see the light. The small British territory of Gibraltar sits at the southern tip of Spain and it is leading the world in the race to vaccinate its citizens. And life in Gibraltar is returning to normal. The health minister of Gibraltar is Samantha Sacramento. She joins me now. Good morning.

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: Hello. Good morning.

MG: Describe what life is like now in Gibralter

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: life right now. Feels pretty good. I have to be honest. We have relaxed a lot of the covid restrictions. So other than indoors in places that you may come into contact with people you don't know, such shops, we don't have to wear face masks anymore. Our restaurants are open and they've been open now for well over a month. Shops are open and Gibraltar is very much coming back to life. And that's great. And there is, I think, a sense of tranquillity because over eighty five percent of the population have been vaccinated. In fact, over eighty five have received both doses of the vaccine for a while now. So that's that's quite good for us. I think we're in a good place.

MG: We spoke with one of your residents, Daniel Briese. Take a listen to what he had to say about life in Gibraltar, where a

Speaker 5: local restaurant in the well-established local restaurant. So it's wonderful to see sort of family and friends all get back together. And, you know, you've got sons and daughters that haven't been able to say that, that grandparents or parents, brothers, they've been shooting. So it's nice to sort of be able to be part of that sort of meeting back together again, some sort of normality.

MG: You described it as a sense of tranquillity, which is not what most people around the world are feeling right now. Tell me more about that and the sense of relief that people are feeling there.

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: Yeah, we have like the rest of the world, we've all been through a very tough year, a year of restrictions, a year worry of a year of having to deal with this virus that at the beginning no one knew much about. So we were all trying to do the best we can in Gibraltar. What we did was last year we went into lockdown very early on. And I think that as a result of the decisions that we made quite early on, we were able to really for the best part of the year, we were able to control the virus. Now, it wasn't until the end of the year when we had one of the more virulent strain of the virus get to us, that we had some deaths towards the end of the year. And it was when we were at our darkest time as a population that the vaccine started to arrive. So we embarked on what we've called Operation Freedom at the beginning of January. And since the vaccines arrived in Gibraltar and they were they've been given to us with great generosity by the UK government and really since the 10th of January when they arrived, we have been and offering the vaccine as part of the vaccination programme non-stop to the extent that the vast majority of our elderly population were vaccinated very, very early on.

MG: How many active cases of COVA do you have right now?

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: None. None? None. We have no active resident cases. We haven't had any hospitalisations accounted for three weeks now. We have a positive case, but that's in relation to a visitor to Gibraltar, not someone who is resident. So there's some stage where we find ourselves well, we don't actually have any positive cases is very encouraging because of our nature geographically and the density of our population. That presents another risk to us. So it's good to see that we've not put any haven't had any positive cases now for for a considerable period in the whole scheme of things.

MG: And the vaccination programme, I mean, you mentioned Operation Freedom. Those vaccines are being flown in directly from from the United Kingdom.

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: Yes. I think we've had about seven shipments so far since we started at the beginning. So we've received in excess of 60,000 doses. Every time they arrive, they are brought into St Vincent's Hospital where we have these specialised freezers that we procured, especially for this, and we just administer them as soon as we can because, you know, the. Vaccines have to be in people's arms and not stored in a freezer.

MG: That's a very different situation than just across the border in Spain, where there is just 21 percent of the population there that has been vaccinated. How do you think people over there feel about what's happening in Gibraltar?

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: I think that would be happy for us and more so because more than approximately 50 percent of the equivalent of 50 percent of the world's population, because we have in Gibraltar say 30 for approximately 34000 people or residents in general. Now, in addition to that, there's approximately 14000 people who come into Gibraltar every day to work. And they are with this and they live in Spain. They live across the border, and the majority of them will be Spanish. Now, we have included all the cross frontier workers in our vaccination programme as well as our resident population. So there's an additional fourteen thousand people, most of whom are Spanish, who have also benefited from Gibraltar successful vaccination programme.

MG: When you take a look at the situation and you could imagine there are some people who are saying, well, yes, you have you're getting vaccine from the United Kingdom, you're a tiny territory in the grand scheme of things, a small population. All of those things have helped. But what do you think you've done right in this fight?

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: Well, clearly, we've been able to vaccinate the population in such a high percentage because we are obviously a small territory. But I think that because we're a small territory, it's a contributing factor as to why we were able to mobilise and organise very quickly and very seamlessly. What we did was as soon as we had confirmation that we would be receiving the vaccines, we set up a vaccination committee. We had three vaccination operations running in tandem, one which was exclusively for all residents of elderly care facilities. So all the care homes, because for infection control purposes, that was an entirely sort of free standing arrangement. And then we had a vaccination centre in our hospital and we only have one hospital in Gibraltar. And that's what we vaccinated all our doctors and nurses and clinical frontline staff and essential workers. And then the third parallel vaccination centre was the that one for all the members of the public. So for the first week, we had everybody being vaccinated at the three centres. At the same time, we finished the exercise in elderly care homes quite quickly. So the two vaccination centres remained open and they've be working seven days a week for more than 12 hours a day. And it's been so well coordinated that, again, I think that by virtue of the size and because people are so connected that by word of mouth has been the best promotion of the take-up of vaccine. Because when you visited the vaccination centres, whichever of the two that you did, it was so, well, well-organised and so methodical and that you had this huge sense of calm and reassurance that everyone is could not speak higher of the services that were offered to them. And the reason that we've been so successful is down to the take up of the offer of the vaccine by the community. So it's down to the community accepting it. And that is all part of the package of everyone wanting to pull together, come together as a nation and take the vaccine not only for your own personal safety, but also to achieve population immunity. And that's what we've done together.

MG: Have you also had to seal yourself off from the rest of the continent? I mean, much of the rest of Europe is in the grips of a third wave. There are lockdowns that are happening not too far away from where Gibraltar is. So is that also just about, you know, pulling up the drawbridge and essentially sealing the territory off from the rest of the continent?

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: No, we haven't, because the reason for that is that we've got travel restrictions in place. So if they are very similar to those that the UK have in place as well. So basically, it means that if you're travelling from a red country and these are countries where we've possibly got stronger strains of the variant, then the rich countries we know you need you need a permit to come in and then you have to isolate for a period and have the testing. But because all the countries closest to us and from where we receive people who would come to Gibraltar ordinarily are pretty much in down, then people cannot get to Gibraltar. So it's not a question of us drawing up the drawbridge because there's been no need for it, because all flights, for example, and from all from Gibraltar in the UK at the moment, non-essential travel in the UK. And so it means that people would be able to come here even if they wanted to. And pretty much the same goes for the in Spain where travel is is also very restricted within Spain.

MG: When you look at those other countries, the red countries, the countries also. Where in the world that are still really trying to keep their heads above water when it comes to this fight, what do you think?

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: I know it's, you know, really my my heart goes out to them because for us, we are a drop in the ocean because we are a very small nation. And I can just imagine the difficulties that this kind of exercise poses for larger countries because of their because of their size and because of all the factors. And I just wish that we could all work together as much as we could to make sure that we can achieve a high level of immunisation that is global.

MG: But in some ways, I mean, speaking to you is a bit like speaking to the future, where restaurants are open and people can go out and live their lives generally without any of the strict restrictions that so many of us are still living under now.

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: Yes. Well, we started to open up at the beginning of March and we opened our restaurants on the 1st of March. By that point, we had already been vaccinating for almost two months. So by that stage, because we've been administering the second dose exactly within 21 days of the first jobs. So pretty much by the second week of February, a lot of people over 70 had received their second dose by then. So for us, that was our priority. Vulnerable people, people over 70 for sure. And by that point, I had organised to go out for dinner on the first night that we opened restaurants. And I could really sense that feeling of relief, of freedom to be able to go out somewhere and behave in a way that was more normal and and slightly human because, you know, behaviour for the last year has been so constrained and so artificial that it's issues at every single level. But I could feel that sense of relief that first night that I went out for dinner and for us from a public health point of view and for me and relaxation of Maja's point of view, it's only gotten better since then.

MG: It's fascinating to speak with you about this and to hear what has happened there and the success story of Gibralter. Samantha Sacramento, thank you very much.

SAMANTHA SACRAMENTO: Thank you. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

MG: Samantha Sacramento is the health minister for Gibralter. That is the programme for this Wednesday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q And tomorrow on The Current, we make the final stop and our virtual road trip, Canada's Road Ahead. We will pull the radio RV into Summerland, British Columbia. And the beautiful Okanogan Valley is an idyllic spot surrounded by beautiful lakes and rolling hills and orchards and vineyards. This stunning place, though, has seen its share of covid challenges. Sukhdeep Brar has been working flat out to keep his orchard running, particularly since many of the migrant farm workers who would normally come to work on the farm didn't make it last year. We'll leave you with a little bit of what Sukhdeep has been going through this year and more on that story coming up tomorrow. I'm Matt Galloway thanks for listening to The Current and take care

SOUNDCLIP

SUKHDEEP BRAR: Of the mental health aspect of this whole pandemic. I don't think has been talked about enough. It's just it's- there's nights when you don't sleep. There's nights when you just think of what you just I just lay there and think about all the work that needs to be done still and say, when are we ever going to get this done? We thought we would have this, this and this done by now. But we're actually still on A. I won't lie, it's been tough, we had a we had our second child last year in May, so he's a pandemic baby. I guess we haven't been able to have a birthday party for we haven't- like grandparents rarely get to see them. And it's it's brutal. It's tough. And I think that's I think that's going to be a lasting effect of this pandemic that's going to go on for years though.

Wednesday April 21, 2021 Full Transcript

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