Doctors share responsibility in the 'perfect storm' of Canada's opioid crisis, expert says

Guests: Dr. Hance Clarke, Dr. Anita Srivastava

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VOICE 1: I had an injury at work. I had a fire hydrant fall on me and shatter my clavicle. My doctor told me that there was a pill called Oxycontin and he would give me two a day and that was the start of it. You know, doctors got sick of me. You know, we went from doctor, to doctor, to doctor and so then of course I had to go out on the street and buy it. You know, upwards of anywhere from 200 to 400 dollars a day.

VOICE 2: I suffered a brain injury as a result of fainting for still an unexplained reason and a seizure triggered by the impact which led to a subdural haematoma -bleeding on the brain - and I've been dealing with that ever since. When you're at a point of desperation you kind of will take anything you can get. When you're dealing with chronic pain you question if it's worth it anymore. You question why you're doing it. So finally to prescribe something, a little pill that gives you so much relief and helps you find yourself again in a time where you are kind of living in this body that feels foreign.

MG: For some patients that first prescription for opioids is a gateway to relief, taking away unbearable pain. But for others it's the first step on a path to addiction, isolation and worse. Monday, a court in Oklahoma held the drug maker Johnson & Johnson responsible for its role in the opioid crisis that has claimed thousands of lives. The court imposed a fine of 572 Million dollars U.S.. Some advocates say it's more than just the drug makers that need to be held accountable. The doctors also play a role in this crisis in the United States. Doctors are facing criminal charges connected with overprescribing. And this month a doctor in Saskatchewan agreed to give up his medical licence after he was found to have been inappropriately prescribing opioids. To talk more about what rule doctors play in this ongoing crisis I'm joined by two guests. Dr. Hance Clarke is the medical director of the Pain Research Unit at Toronto General Hospital. And Dr. Anita Srivastava is an associate professor in the Department of Family and Community Medicine at the University of Toronto and an addictions and opioid specialist at St. Joseph's Health Centre. And they are both with me in our studio in Toronto. Hello to you both!

DR. HANCE CLARKE: How're you doing, man?

MG: Good thanks. Just briefly we'll start with you. Dr. Srivastava. What do you make of the judge's ruling that Johnson & Johnson is responsible in part for the opiate epidemic that is playing out in Oklahoma?

DR. ANITA SRIVASTAVA: Well I think it's a... I think there is a lot of corporate responsibility for the opiate crisis that we're in. Certainly corporations misled the public, misled physicians with false advertising and... they did it in several ways. One was by false advertising to physicians. But the second way is also by increasing disease awareness. And so we've always had chronic pain - a significant portion of the public has chronic pain - but what Johnson & Johnson and Purdue and others did in the 1990s was increase the public and physicians' awareness of chronic pain. It also began advertising to physicians: 'Listen, there's a way you can help your patients easily. Just take this little pill and there you go.' And now we're finding increasingly that there was a lot of deception and false advertising that took place. So I think that, you know, this is the beginning of some corporate responsibility.

MG: I want to pick up on some of that in just a moment but first, Dr. Clarke... The big number - 573 million dollars U.S. - what kind of message does that send?

DR. HANCE CLARKE: Well Matt, I think it does send the message that there is some responsibility on the manufacturers of these products. And you know, you get back to your question in terms of, you know, are doctors responsible? Well it's a shared responsibility. It's the system's responsibility.

MG: What does that mean, a shared responsibility?

DR. HANCE CLARKE: I think, you know, we as physicians that are trying to help our patients use information that we have and there's no doubt over the past couple of decades where we've landed is not necessarily the the safest or the best place for the Canadian public. But the, you know, the real the real point I would make is if we knew better we probably also would have done better. And we know better today. And so how we move forward is probably the most important discussion that we need to have.

MG: So much attention has been paid to the big pharma companies. But to your point, Dr. Srivastava, what is the role of physicians in this and what has been the role of physicians in this, if not creating and exacerbating this crisis?

DR. ANITA SRIVASTAVA: Yes certainly. I think physicians have had a role both as individuals and as a collective body. I think really what we had now was a perfect storm here of corporate irresponsibility of professioned physicians who weren't critical and analytic about the... analytical enough about the information that was being fed to them by a pharmaceutical company and regulators who, quite frankly, approved products that weren't- didn't have enough evidence to support their use and public formularies that paid for these medications. So it really was a perfect storm of all of these things coming together and certainly physicians had their share of responsibility in all of this as well.

MG: Hans Clarke, do you think that doctors in this country have been overprescribing opioids?

DR. HANCE CLARKE: That's a good question. I mean clearly there are cases where we have overprescribed in particular stories and there is obviously an overlay of opioid use disorder. There are also many patients that are functioning on their opioids that are now in severe jeopardy of no longer having their opioids because of the swing in policy and the swing in regulators and some of the knee jerk changes that we're trying to make. And there's never a simple solution. It appears as though there has only been one simple solution suggested for this to date and that has been to stop prescribing. And that would be a complete disaster for the Canadian public. I think we have a hidden opioid crisis of individuals that are on their opioids that can no longer access them and if you look at our prescribing in the country for the past several years we've reduced our prescribing by 10 percent. As a physician population but our opioid overdose rates have gone up by 36 percent.

MG: One of the reasons why those patients would be on opioids in the first place is because the doctor prescribed them. And to your point, Anita, maybe the pharmaceutical companies went to the doctors and said this could be a magic pill that would help your patients. I was reading yesterday about some of the tactics that were taken: sales representatives, counselling, doctors. And being told those sales representatives to avoid what's known as the "addiction ditch" which would be the negatives associated with drug use and dependence. We might think that the doctors are critical thinkers, that they'll be able to see through something like this. Should have been more sceptical about what the pharmaceutical companies were saying to them?

DR. ANITA SRIVASTAVA: Yeah I do think physicians individually and as a profession we should have been more critical about what was being said to us our professional bodies should have had some responsibility in offering guidance to the profession. But I also think that physicians were in a difficult position. They had patients who were suffering who had pain and here was a solution that seemed to help. I also think the way the pharmaceutical companies pitched it was, 'Here this is a great product. Addiction is very, very rare. It's going to help less than 1 percent,' is what they said. 'It's going to help your patients.' And then when problems began to emerge in the late 90s early 2000s, the attitude was, 'Well these are just the bad apples who are having problems and so not recognizing or not acknowledging or not recognizing but not acknowledging that there is something inherent in the formulation itself that is harmful to people. And so by framing it as here are people who are bad apples ignore them. These are people who are addicts. The vast majority people don't have this. And so this is just sort of people who haven't been able to use a drug properly they sort of minimized that whole issue and they focussed it in a sort of dichotomies it in two there is a good patient to have chronic pain and then there's a bad small percentage of patients who develop addiction.

MG: But back to the question, I mean again, it's not all doctors would do this but shouldn't doctors have been able to at least question that, or if not, see through it and question what the companies might be saying?

DR. ANITA SRIVASTAVA: Yeah I think that we should have been more critical, but I also think that you have physicians who are very busy. A lot of family doctors who are dealing with large practices and to have patients who are in chronic pain and who have tried everything and they're sometimes coming in and saying, 'Listen, my friend is taking this and it's helped them tremendously.' And when you have somebody in front of you who is in a lot of pain is maybe not working has tried everything for their back pain has had a terrible injury you want to be able to help your patient and there is some evidence out there, there is some change in the way the physicians are practicing and you're hearing more about it. So you agree to help your patient, or perhaps your patient comes in and says, 'Listen I've tried this and it's really helped me.' And you as a physician may be critical and analytical and say, 'Well actually the evidence doesn't really support that long term opiates help this.' But how do you say to somebody in front of you who says, 'This has changed my life and I can tell you that you're telling me this pill doesn't work or there isn't a body of evidence to support it but I'm telling you that I can now get up in the morning, get my kids breakfast and I can get to work.' So to say to that person, 'Well listen, the papers say this,' is very difficult.

MG: Or perhaps, and we saw this come out in the Johnson & Johnson case, the ruling showed that the company would go to doctors and offer them gifts as well. Say this is something that perhaps would help you feel better about the product that we are promoting and that might get those doctors to prescribe more. Does that happen in Canada?

DR. HANCE CLARKE: Not- not as... It certainly did, I'm sure, across the board. It certainly does not happen anymore. I can tell you that-

MG: Those incentives aren't in place?

DR. HANCE CLARKE: Those incentives aren't in place and they were eradicated some time ago. I think the big issue that, you know, Anita was capturing there is that there is no cure for chronic pain here. And I'll give the federal government some good kudos in terms of putting up their statistics in terms of opioid mortality, Matt, in June. And 11,500 Canadians have died in the past three years of opiate related deaths and 75 percent of those are young males, typically 93 percent of these deaths are fentanyl analogue related. And so we really have to tease apart the chronic pain patients from the people that are actually dying in terms of our opioid crisis and this is something that isn't being done clearly enough.

MG: When do you prescribe opioids to your patient?

DR. HANCE CLARKE: I tell you where opioids are fantastic. They're fantastic in the acute pain setting and if I were to break my femur and show up and emerge, I sure hope that physician there is going to give me an opioid to help with my acute pain.

MG: You would want it?

100 percent I would want it. It is our best medication for acute pain. Where we have run into trouble is is it efficacious long-term for chronic pain? And at what doses should we be giving these to? And so we have these national guidelines that were put out two years ago and I can tell you that they are going to be extremely helpful in the next, you know, 5 to 10 years for limiting the doses that people are being prescribed, and this is something that's important. But it has been extremely harmful for many patients that are currently on high dose opioids and the feeling that they shouldn't be receiving these opioids and we need to figure out a way out for some of these folks.

MG: You talked about that desperation, Anita, that patients might present to doctors. 'I'm in excruciating pain and I need something.' What do you say to your patients if you prescribe an opioid? What are the things that you would tell them about the possible addictive elements of this?

DR. ANITA SRIVASTAVA: So, I think that Hance raises a really good point. There is acute versus chronic pain. So for somebody who's dealing with chronic pain and has had pain for a long time that hasn't responded to typical things like anti-inflammatories or physiotherapy, I would say to them, 'Listen, there there isn't a lot of evidence that taking this long-term, depending on the kind of pain you have, the effect of it is probably modest in terms of your pain. If we do go ahead with this let's be very, very careful with how we do it. Let's start with small doses.' And I think the most important thing to do is to say- say to the person in front of you, 'Listen, we're going to consider this a trial. It may work. It may not. We don't know how you're going to respond to this.' And then to have a plan if it doesn't work out so it could not work out simply because it may not be effective. And in that case to say, 'OK well let's, you know, stop this and stop it safely.' It could also be that there is very, very clear problems that develop with it. Perhaps addiction, perhaps side effects that are untenable. So in that case how are you going to deal with that as well? So I think that's one of the most important things is to consider it a trial. And then if someone does respond well to continue that dialogue of, 'How are you doing on this? Is it helping. Are you doing better? Are you now back at work? Are you more functional in your life? So is it actually working?' And then to have a plan that, like I said, if it's not working to be able to stop it and if addiction does develop, or if an opiate use disorder does develop, to have a plan. How am I going to treat that? How am I going to help you? And we have a system that is increasingly getting better at having timely access to good treatment for opiate use disorder. But that always- that wasn't always the case.

MG: But it's also a system that exists, to Hance's point, in a context where opioids in some ways mean that that's just a dirty word. And people talk about the way forward and the way forward may be to stop prescribing opioids. What would that mean to patients who are on these forms of medication?

DR. HANCE CLARKE: Oh Matt, I'm confronted with that. Almost everyday I practice now, and so you have these stable patients that, you know? And some of them do need some tapering and need some reduction but what's happening is this fear of God has been placed into physicians that our colleges are coming to take our licences away if we continue to prescribe these medications. And so I have a functioning, working woman who's supporting her family who has been on this drug for 10 years and her physician says to her this is your last script and you have 30 days to figure out what's next. What is- what is left for this woman, she's got one of three things. One, she can find another prescriber within the 30 days. Two, she cannot find a prescriber go into withdrawal and destabilise her life. Or three, potentially move into finding this potentially in the illicit market. And I can tell you when I test individuals that walk into my clinic and I- and they divulge to me that they are purchasing illicit opioids because they can't handle their forced taper, fentanyl shows up. And so I am left in a position of, well, do I prescribe now? Do I throw them out of my practice? Well I can't do that.

MG: But what is the responsibility, then, of the physicians in this? Because again, we're pointing the finger at big pharma. But the spotlight is now on doctors and in the United States, you know, perhaps a brighter spotlight. How do you get out of that bind?

DR. HANCE CLARKE: So here's what we need to do. We know what will help our chronic pain patients that are struggling with this on a daily basis and for the rest of their lives. If they could have access to Multidisciplinary Pain clinics they'll be fantastic! But that, unfortunately, is a pipe dream. 1 in 200,000 Canadians have access to one of these clinics. But what we can do is help support, I think, the family physicians and embed pain- embed addiction services embed psychological services into those family health units. And I think a radical concept here, Matt, is these docs that are so terrified and are dropping their patients... as they close their practices. What about amnesty in some of these younger docs to help support some of these patients through that transition so that they're not stuck in this place of complete despair not being able to access their opioids? And then lead to the place where we know in five years we will help the population. But what's going to happen between now and then our death toll. If we think it's high now it is going to continue to climb unless we tackle these vulnerable pain patients that are being- that are in a lot of trouble.

MG: What is the advice that you give doctors? Because you train doctors in terms of how to prescribe opioids.

DR. ANITA SRIVASTAVA: Well, I think that we tell them to be safe, to be careful, and how to watch for problems that emerge. How to make sure that it's actually working. I think that, you know, Hance makes a good point that most of the overdoses that are happening now are from illicit opiates but if we look back to how this appetite in our population was first created for opiates it largely was through prescribing. And so yes, the pendulum has swung from, you know, indiscriminate prescribing to whoever needed it to now we're being very, very careful and really the pendulum sort of needs to be somewhere in the middle where we're careful about prescribing but we also recognize that there's a role for opiates in chronic pain. But we just have to be very careful about it. So we talked to residents about how to figure out where that pendulum should be, how to appropriately prescribe with reasonable doses, how to monitor for problems that emerge and what to do if problems do emerge. I think one thing that's really important is time. You know, Hance mentioned it's a dialogue to have with your with your patients. It's enormously time consuming and right now physicians aren't supported in most models to spend that kind of time to have a patient who is on opiates who may be struggling with that, who may be in high doses to have a conversation with them about, 'Listen, I don't know if this is safe for you because beyond opiate use disorder we have a whole other spectrum of problems.' You may have somebody who's at a very, very high dose of opiates who looks like they're functioning very well they don't have an opiate use disorder but we do know that opiates at high doses are associated with problems. Increased risk of overdose maybe a small risk, but it is there and other health problems. So I think it's important that we give physicians the support and the time to do that. And that's one other thing I talk to residents about is to try and find a way to incorporate that into your practice that this isn't a problem that's going to be solved at once. It takes a lot of time so there's no- there's no worry. There's no rush. You don't need to get somebody off in a month. Take a year, take two years if you need to- to have this sort of longitudinal, ongoing conversation with people about how to do this.

MG: Just in the remaining minutes we have, I mean, you become a doctor you have on the wall the Hippocratic Oath. And it says first, "Do no harm." Personally how difficult is it for you to try and navigate through this?

DR. ANITA SRIVASTAVA: Well I think it can be challenging. I've had a lot of support and I'm very lucky. I work in an environment where I can take my time and where I have social workers and I have people who can help me- help me with this. But I think that I've also worked in the community as a family doctor where I have, you know, 10 minutes to see a patient and have a waiting room full of people and there aren't very many... and I'm covering for another physician and I have people walking in and saying, 'Listen, just refill my opiates,' and I can clearly see that there is a problem. And especially when I was a younger physician first starting out in the late 90s...

MG: But the clock is ticking and you have to keep moving.

DR. ANITA SRIVASTAVA: Yeah. I have got to keep moving, and I'm covering for the physician and certainly that was my experience in the late 90s working as a young doctor covering for other physicians. And I didn't know very much about opiates then, this wasn't my area yet. I certainly just didn't know very much and felt a lot of pressure to keep moving and just kind of played along with all of it.

MG: Hance, for you?

DR. HANCE CLARKE: So you know, Matt, that one of the places that we can certainly correct and change course is the diversion piece. And for the listeners out there, diversion is when, you know, I write a script and it doesn't actually land in the person's hands that is supposed to use it and someone else uses it. And so right now the Embassy of Toronto, Best Practice of Surgery, I helped lead some new guidelines for post-operative prescribing in particular. And so we're not gonna be handing out volumes of opioids as we move forward. We're gonna make sure our patients' pain is controlled. As Anita mentioned, we're gonna be using, you know, NSAIDs, acetaminophen. But people will get a short script of opioids and we'll reduce the number of pills that are available to be diverted to the public and that's something we can be proud of as a physician community that we've actually taken steps in that direction.

MG: And for those who say we need to get rid of opioids entirely?

DR. HANCE CLARKE: That's completely an all or none concept. There's no such thing as all or none in medicine. Opioids for acute pain is still the mainstay of treatment. What we need to do is ensure that those people don't go on to have long term problems.

MG: Good to have you both here. Thank you.

DR. HANCE CLARKE: Thanks Matt.

DR. ANITA SRIVASTAVA: Thank you.

MG: Dr. Hance Clarke is medical director of the Pain Research Unit at Toronto General Hospital. Dr. Anita Srivastava is an associate professor in the Department of Family and Community Medicine at the University of Toronto and an addictions opioid specialist at St. Joseph's Health Centre in Toronto. This is such a personal issue for people. We'd love to hear from you. You can reach us at cbc.ca/thecurrent or on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC. The CBC News is next, and then.

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WOMAN: I knew it was wrong but the reason I thought it was wrong was because he was married, not because he was my teacher.

MG: Today on The Band Played On, the stories of women who were preyed upon by a charismatic band teacher. My name's Matt Galloway. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

The Band Played On – Episode 4

MG: Hi I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current. Over the summer months we've been listening to some of the CBC as best original podcasts. Today we continue with the series The Band Played On. It's based on an award-winning investigation by CBC reporter Julie Ireton and Julie has discovered 44 victims of three teachers who all worked at the same school. Today she tells the story of the woman sexually assaulted by their music teacher decades ago. And a warning, this story contains adult content and candid accounts of sexual abuse which may disturb some listeners.

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JULIE IRETON: An award-winning Bell High School band. Maple Leaf Rag on a record in 1978. Bob Clark was the band leader. The record album cover shows girls in long skirts and boys in crisp yellow shirts. They stand in front of Canada's parliament buildings holding their instruments. Boys in that photo were being abused. Teacher Diane Langlois remembers that band.

DIANE LANGLOIS: Just makes my heart go pitter patter. It throws a sadness on what I thought was such a happy, happy time.

JULIE IRETON: She taught at Bell High for more than 28 years.

DIANE LANGLOIS: Had opportunities to go other places, had opportunities for promotions at other places. I stayed very, very happy at Bell.

JULIE IRETON: Diane Langlois is the teacher who told a school administrator about Bob Clark in the late 1970s but she also worked closely at Bell with the two other teachers accused of sex crimes against students. Diane Langlois coached several teams at Bell and one of her first coaching jobs was with Don Greenham. Greenham is the Bell High coach accused of abusing male students in locker rooms and on canoe trips, and Langlois was on the bench with him.

DIANE LANGLOIS: I went to 80-some odd games every year with him. It was a lot. It was a lot. He had a lot of control over them but they are unbelievable boys. They were...

JULIE IRETON: But Langlois never suspected any sexual abuse by the coach. In 2016 when Greenham was charged with more than 55 crimes against students, Langlois was floored.

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NEWS ANCHOR: Diane Langlois now believes Don Greenham was guilty and she doesn't doubt the charges against Bob Clark. But she also worked closely with the third teacher in this story.

JULIE IRETON: Tim Stanutz.

DIANE LANGLOIS: I did produce musicals with him. We had competitions...

JULIE IRETON: Langlois didn't think Tim Stanutz could ever hurt his students.

DIANE LANGLOIS: Absolutely don't believe it. Even to this day I don't believe it.

JULIE IRETON: By all accounts Tim Stanhope's was a very popular hard working teacher. He led legendary award winning bands.

PETER HAMER: Tim worked his career from 1986 to 2016 and he was getting ready to retire. He was my brother's music teacher and my brother loved him and...

JULIE IRETON: Peter Hamer knew of Tim's Stanutz.

PETER HAMER: In fact I think he was a really well-respected, well-loved music teacher.

JULIE IRETON: It was shortly after Peter complained to a principal about Clark's sexually abusive behaviour that Tim Stanutz took over the music room. That was some 30 years ago.

PETER HAMER: And in May of 2016 I was reading Facebook. Somebody had posted that Tim Stanutz had been arrested for sexually assaulting his... [breaks down]

JULIE IRETON: Take your time and your time.

PETER HAMER: He had been arrested for sexually assaulting students. And I lost it because he was the teacher that was replacing...

JULIE IRETON: Replacing Bob Clark. Two men accused of sexually assaulting students worked in one music room. Over the course of four decades one replaced the other.

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NEWS REPORTER: Definitely one of the big high schools here and joining us from Bell High from their instrumental music department is Tim stands. Great to have you on the show.

TIM STANUTZ: Really?

JULIE IRETON: This is a clip of Tim standards from a CTV morning show interview in 2011.

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TIM STANUTZ: There's a lot, lot going on at Bell High School in music. We've got the concert bands, we have the jazz ensemble, got a string orchestra that we play on Fridays, we've got the vocal program which has got all kinds of choirs, all male choirs, all vocal female choirs, and on top of that we've got a great arts program in general with drama...

JULIE IRETON: Stanutz was the music teacher and band leader at Bell High for 30 years. He took over after Bob Clark left the school in 1986.

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NEWS REPORTER: ...within the music department?

TIM STANUTZ: Well, we give the kids the opportunity to perform which is awesome.

JULIE IRETON: Stanutz commanded a lot of respect from students and the administration. Many students called him "Sir."

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NEWS REPORTER: Nice! And we've got great musicians here behind us. Who are they?

TIM STANUTZ: We do! Grade 11 students formed their own band, Portrait of an Artist.

[Sound: piano playing]

JULIE IRETON: He was also well known in Ottawa's jazz community. In this YouTube video Stanutz plays the double bass in one of the many groups he performed with over the years.

[Sound: YouTube clip - Stanutz performs with music group, choir sings and piano plays]

JULIE IRETON: Stanutz made a career out of not just making music but creating musicians.

[Sound: Youtube clip - Stanutz performs with music group, choir sings and piano plays]

JULIE IRETON: That all came to an end in 2016. Stanutz was forced to leave the classroom after police laid charges of sexual assault. But that case never got to trial.

[Sound: dial tone]

EMERGENCY CALL OPERATOR: Ottawa Fire. What's your emergency?

MAN: Yeah. We need firemen, paramedics, the whole works here. There's a truck on fire.

EMERGENCY CALL OPERATOR: Yeah.

MAN: The Emerald Links Golf Course on [inaudible] ...

JULIE IRETON: May 15th, 2017.

EMERGENCY CALL OPERATOR: What do you see exactly?

MAN: A dump truck. A car hit a dump truck head on. Person's ejected from the car.

JULIE IRETON: The man ejected from the car is Tim Stanutz.

EMERGENCY CALL OPERATOR: Person from the vehicle still in the vehicle or not?

JULIE IRETON: It's out in the country on a long stretch of paved road.

EMERGENCY CALL OPERATOR: Is the truck on fire at all? Or...

JULIE IRETON: It was a sunny spring day. Several people called 911.

WOMAN: ...vehicle like fully on fire...

JULIE IRETON: And then firefighters, paramedics and police responded to the scene.

EMERGENCY DISPATCHER: When the vehicles collided they were both engulfed in flames. One driver was taken to hospital with undisclosed injuries. The second driver was pronounced dead at the scene.

JULIE IRETON: Tim Stanutz is dead.

DIANE LANGLOIS: He was going to be walking his daughter down the aisle. She was getting married.

JULIE IRETON: Diane Langlois thinks of his four kids.

DIANE LANGLOIS: His family meant the world to him.

JULIE IRETON: Tim Stanutz had hired a lawyer. He was planning on defending himself against what he and his supporters said were false allegations.

DIANE LANGLOIS: We showed up. We were shocked. We supported him right away. Former Vice Principal's... says when it goes to trial we'll all be there and be witnesses.

JULIE IRETON: Langlois does know girls got close to Stanutz.

DIANE LANGLOIS: Because when you are in coaching, when you're in musicals there are students that do become close to you. There are students that will land up in your office. I know this myself. Morning, noon and night. Or even when, as a guidance counsellor, we try and take over the counselling outcome. He would move them forward to us, have us contact parents. He was... I really don't know. I don't know any of my colleagues that were there that did believe it.

LAURIE HOWAT: You know I fantasized and imagined that, you know, maybe he likes me too. Maybe he wants what I want.

JULIE IRETON: It was 2003. Laurie Howat was in grade 11. She was lovesick over one of the most popular guys at Bell High School. She was 16.

LAURIE HOWAT: I had developed a crush on him.

JULIE IRETON: The couple spent as much time together as possible before school, at lunch, again after school.

LAURIE HOWAT: He and I were together, like connected at the hip.

JULIE IRETON: Laurie Howat had long, straight brown hair and chocolate coloured eyes. He was handsome, charismatic...

LAURIE HOWAT: Commonplace multiple-times-a-day thing where we would be, you know, physically intimate at school and then go about our day and then come back to it at lunch. And it was just part of the routine. And...

JULIE IRETON: She thought other girls were prettier smarter. But he had picked her.

LAURIE HOWAT: He was literally my everything. And I felt so special and it was like a dream come true. If they liked him back...

JULIE IRETON: Until it became a nightmare.

LAURIE HOWAT: Now I know the difference in age, I think, was 28 years of myself and Mr. Stanutz and I just... Thinking back then I thought... I knew it was wrong but the reason I thought it was wrong was because he was married, not because he was my teacher.

JULIE IRETON: Stanutz's teaching career began in 1986, before Laurie Howat was even born.

JULIE IRETON: ...your voice. Just tell me your name and how old you are.

LAURIE HOWAT: I'm Laurie and I'm 31.

JULIE IRETON: OK.

JULIE IRETON: Laurie Howat's brown hair falls onto her shoulders just like when she was a teenager. Her dark eyes match her hair.

LAURIE HOWAT: I went to Bell High School in Ottawa, Ontario.

JULIE IRETON: Can you tell me the years?

LAURIE HOWAT: 2001 to 2005.

JULIE IRETON: She sits across from me curled up in a big armchair. She's guarded. I first reached out to Laurie Howat months ago. After several conversations she decided to tell me her story.

JULIE IRETON: When did you meet Tim Stanutz as a teacher?

LAURIE HOWAT: I'm... I guess technically met him when I was in grade 8 going to my older brother's music concerts.

JULIE IRETON: Then she became his student. He started paying special attention to her.

LAURIE HOWAT: That began in Grade 9. He would always find some way to acknowledge me or single me out in a positive way where I felt special or chosen. Sometimes he would walk past me and just flick me on the head with his baton on his way out without saying anything and it just. Made me feel... unique.

JULIE IRETON: Laurie's mom died of cancer the year before. The extra attention was nice.

LAURIE HOWAT: I'm a teenager. I'm not talking to my dad because it's weird at home. Mom's not there anymore and I'm just...

JULIE IRETON: Tim Stanutz stepped in.

LAURIE HOWAT: But he would say things in regards to my clothing or shoes if they were dishevelled. You know, 'Why isn't your dad buying you new shoes? He must not care about you.' And my teacher bought me new shoes. And...

JULIE IRETON: You mean Mr. Stanutz?

LAURIE HOWAT: Mr. Stanutz bought me new shoes. And he... It made me feel like, OK. He- he cares about me. He looking out for me. He was just the nice... the nice teacher that would do anything for any kid. So when he would present me with a sandwich while I'm sitting with a group of my friends, no one thought it was weird because it was just one nice thing for this man to do to look out for this student who's, you know, going through a hard time. I was like head over heels. It sounds so silly to say that now because we're talking about a man and a child but back then I felt, you know, he sees something in me and I'm worth something.

JULIE IRETON: She felt an attraction to him and she wondered if it was mutual.

LAURIE HOWAT: The moment I was sure was... we were in his office and I was leaning up against a filing cabinet with my head on my forearms because I had a terrible headache and he came up behind me and started to rub my shoulders. And he was very close to me and I felt, you know, his erection against my backside and that's when I knew that, OK... there's no more mixed signals. He definitely feels the same. That was in grade 11.

JULIE IRETON: She was 16 years old.

LAURIE HOWAT: He would say things, you know, in the heat of the moment. Like whispering into my ear, 'Look what you're doing to me,' as he would point down to his erection and at the time that made me feel, you know, powerful and sexy like I must be so wonderful. Look what I'm doing.

JULIE IRETON: The sexual activity became part of their daily routine.

LAURIE HOWAT: Every single day I would skip homeroom and during the national anthem playing through the school I would be in his office chair performing oral sex on him. And then when homeroom was over I was in his class for the next period and we would just carry on with music or whatever class I was in, guitar, and carry on, its normal until we could escape into his office, or the next break, or lunch, or spare - where we would continue. That was multiple times a day, every single day.

JULIE IRETON: At that point in her mind it was an affair.

LAURIE HOWAT: I thought that was the only thing that is bad about the situation is that he is being unfaithful to his wife and I am wrecking that home because I- I had such love for him and I, you know, seduced him to make him do these horrible things. But...

JULIE IRETON: Lori Howard says Tim Stanutz had everyone fooled. Other teachers, other students, guidance counsellors. They all saw there was a close relationship with her Mr. Stanutz and no one questioned it.

LAURIE HOWAT: We were alone quite a bit and that would be before, during and after school. But a lot of the time there were other students and other teachers that were around while inappropriate things were happening. He was very brave, I guess. And I'm learning now many years later that I think he was almost arrogant because of the reputation he had built for himself. So it really speaks to how confident he felt that he could get away, and was getting away, and did get away with everything that he did do.

JULIE IRETON: And in Laurie Howat's own heart, at the time, it was no different than if she'd been in love with a boy her own age.

LAURIE HOWAT: The way he would hold me and kiss my head and caressed me when we hugged. You know, I felt that he definitely cared about me and I felt loved. He didn't say it. I just understood that our relationship, whatever we had would finish when I left high school and I just- I knew that it would end when I left and I was just kind of, you know, cherishing every moment that I had with him.

JULIE IRETON: Laurie Howat graduated from Bell High in 2005 and she says on Stanutz's advice, she didn't go to college. Instead she got a retail job and then once a week she went back to Bell's music department as a volunteer.

LAURIE HOWAT: He invited me back to what he claims "help with paperwork and filing" and stuff. The same thing continued. It was exactly as it was when I was in high school but just for one- one day a week. And I'd never signed in at the office as a visitor...

JULIE IRETON: But the relationship did end in 2006. Laurie remembers the last time she ever saw him was at the funeral of a former student.

LAURIE HOWAT: I saw him at the funeral and he drove me home to my apartment. Nothing took place. He just... One thing I do remember is that he did stop at like a Mac's Milk or a cookie, and he withdrew money from an A.T.M. to give me to help pay rent. But I think that's the last time we spoke and saw each other in person.

JULIE IRETON: Eventually Laurie Howat started to date other men her own age. But these relationships were difficult. For years she just couldn't shake her experience with her high school music teacher.

LAURIE HOWAT: Basically from 2006 to 2016 I considered myself a slut. I was this whore who seduced this wonderful man and made him do a bad thing and...

JULIE IRETON: It weighed on her mind more than she thought it should. But she tried to move on. In 2016 she was 29 and in a budding relationship.

LAURIE HOWAT: I was explaining to someone my entire sexual history and I mentioned, 'Know by the way it doesn't matter because, you know, he's not creepy or anything but me and my teacher used to do some stuff...' And like, 'He's a good man and it wasn't- it wasn't bad, he's not a predator but this is what happened and I just want to be honest with you.' And that person linked me to an article on child grooming and as I read through it line by line is exactly what had happened to me. And I just felt horrified. I felt sick and I threw up. All of a sudden I'm finding out that perhaps it isn't what I thought and that he took advantage of me. And I'm struggling with the feelings of betrayal because I thought everything was genuine and that's still something I'm conflicted about. You know, did he care?

JULIE IRETON: It turned her happy memories of high school completely upside down. She felt betrayed. She felt dirty. She felt abused.

LAURIE HOWAT: But there was something inside me that knew I needed to go to the police and see this through. But I still, at that time, was confused, very confused, about what was real, what wasn't real. Was it my fault? Did I seduce him? Did I make him do this? Was he bad? Is he bad?

NONI CLASSEN: That would constitute a situation where a child could not legally consent to engaging in sexual activity even if they're willing.

JULIE IRETON: To Noni Classen, there is no grey area. No confusion. The relationship was illegal.

NONI CLASSEN: I am the director of education at the Canadian Centre for Child Protection.

JULIE IRETON: Tell me a little bit about the organization. What does it do?

NONI CLASSEN: Well sure. Well our organization is actually a national charity. Part of the federal strategy here in Canada to reduce the incidents of children who are sexually victimized...

JULIE IRETON: In Canada the legal age to consent to sex is 16 but it is criminal for a teacher to have a relationship with a student under the age of 18, even if that student is a willing participant.

NONI CLASSEN: If these students are 6 or 5 years old, people are- would be alarmed, right? And right away there be no question. But somehow because they're 16 there seems to be this, 'Well it's not the same,' where it actually is. You still have a child in their formative years who it impacts their development. It's corrosive to it and it's a betrayal of trust. This is where people get confused around if a child can legally consent versus their willingness to engage in a sexual relationship and why we have laws around that is because children can easily be coerced and manipulated in their perceptions because they're in their formative years. And it isn't unusual for a youth to have a crush on a teacher...

JULIE IRETON: What is unusual and forbidden is for any teacher to reciprocate or take advantage of a student.

NONI CLASSEN: It's not OK.

JULIE IRETON: Three teachers who worked at Bell High crossed into that forbidden territory.

NEWS ANCHOR: The circumstances were all different. The result was the same. Teens were hurt. Teachers gained trust and attention. Students were primed but the teens weren't the only ones.

NONI CLASSEN: These individuals who end up victimizing children are grooming not only the children, but grooming the adults.

JULIE IRETON: We'd all like to think that we'd spot someone who was harming kids around us, but Noni Classen says it's not always so easy.

NONI CLASSEN: They'll start to make comments about the kids to legitimize what they're doing as well. And then other people who are witnessing it will start to notice information that corroborates it. Right?

JULIE IRETON: The predator might give special attention to a troubled kid. They build a close relationship offering rides home, tutoring after school, becoming the unofficial guidance counsellor.

NONI CLASSEN: So what- where we see problems happening are individuals who seek and create the opportunity to extend their relationship with the child for a legitimate purpose for it to become more personal and emotional in terms of the sharing. And then no one questions it!

JULIE IRETON: She notes the adults around might have an inkling of doubt about these relationships. But that doubt is overridden because the abuser has cultivated an image.

NONI CLASSEN: And I think the reason is because they trusted him.

JULIE IRETON: Laurie Howat thinks her teacher was a wolf in sheep's clothing.

JULIE IRETON: When we spoke last time you said, you know, he had everyone fooled.

LAURIE HOWAT: He did. And still has a lot of people fooled, even though he's gone, because he normalized all of his behaviours. It was normal for him to hug a student, it was normal for him to have a student in his office with him alone, you know, kind of counselling and talking or mentoring.

JULIE IRETON: In 2016 Tim Stanutz was still teaching music at Bell High School. Laurie Howat kept thinking maybe he's still doing it to someone else.

LAURIE HOWAT: I did tell my psychologist about it. I knew that she had the duty to report because he was still an educator of children. So there were potential victims. So I told her with the understanding that she is going to have to report this. So my psychologist after our session contacted Children's Aid and the Ottawa Police Service and a detective called me in March of 2016 after I had- late March after I had told my psychologist. And I remember saying in my interview with the detective that, you know, I don't even know if this is a crime because I don't know how old you have to be to consent to this. And I...

JULIE IRETON: Then the police detectives gave Laurie Howat something she hadn't had for 15 years, control over the situation.

LAURIE HOWAT: So it was my decision. They said that they believe me. They said they believed me because I was credible because I admitted that I loved him and in my eyes was consenting. And they did say that they believe that they can have a conviction if we were to go to court. And it's up to me if I want to press charges or not. And I said yes. I still- I hadn't even given it thought it was just my gut that answered. It's like yes let's do this. They did an investigation based on everything I had to say. And on May 6th, 2016 charges were laid against Mr. Stanutz.

JULIE IRETON: The school board suspended Stanutz with pay. Removed him from the classroom. Laurie Howat was not the only woman who had gone to police about Tim Stanutz. There were more victims and they'd gone to Bell High before her.

MG: We've been listening to the CBC podcast The Band Played On from CBC reporter Julie Ireton. We'll get back to that story in just a couple of minutes after this regional update. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

[BREAK]

MG: Hi I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current and we continue with the CBC podcast The Band Played On, based on an award-winning investigation by reporter Julie Ireton. Julie finds out that Laurie Howat wasn't the only woman who says she was abused by her music teacher. And again a warning, this story contains adult content, coarse language and candid accounts of sexual abuse which may disturb some listeners.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: applause, Tim Stanutz introduces the junior band on stage]

JULIE IRETON: It's December 1998 and the auditorium is full of parents for Bell High School's Christmas concert. This grainy video from that night shows a younger Tim Stanutz. He's leading the junior concert band wearing a tux and a red bow tie. Someone has captured the event on a handy cam.

KASIE MORRIS: I was band president for junior band so that would've been in grade 10.

JULIE IRETON: Kasie Morris is one of the kids wearing a white shirt and black pants at this concert. She's not visible in the video but she remembers being there playing the clarinet.

KASIE MORRIS: I loved playing even though I was terrible at it. I enjoyed being in the department and it was a good elective to keep taking so I just kind of continued with it.

JULIE IRETON: Eighteen years after that concert at Bell, Kasie Morris found out her former music teacher had been charged for sexual assault.

KASIE MORRIS: And, you know, it was like being punched in the gut but I instantly knew I had... I had no choice. I couldn't- couldn't leave Laurie on her own, to fight this on her own.

JULIE IRETON: Kasie Morris is now 36. She lives in New Brunswick in 2016 she didn't know who had gone to police. At that point Laurie Howat's name was protected by a publication ban but Kasie didn't question those allegations.

KASIE MORRIS: No I did not know who it was. Although I'm certain that Laurie and I probably ran into each other and met in that- that one year where we overlapped in high school...

JULIE IRETON: But on social media, former students and colleagues were quick to come to the defence of Tim Stanutz. People said his anonymous accuser was a liar. The allegations had to be false.

KASIE MORRIS: I knew that she's going to have an uphill battle with simply even just people believing it, but also I knew at that point I couldn't live with myself if I didn't take the opportunity that was presented to me to finally speak up.

JULIE IRETON: In 1997 Tim Stanutz's gaze fell to Kasie Morris.

KASIE MORRIS: He taught me in grade 9, 11, 12 and 13. Tim Stanutz is a good teacher. I mean he was... He cared about teaching and he was very involved with extracurriculars...

JULIE IRETON: Like Lori Howat, Kasie Morris has straight brown hair. It hangs past her shoulders. And like Laurie, Kasie was smitten.

KASIE MORRIS: I definitely had a crush on him. He was my main support through most of high school. Someone I felt I could talk to and trust.

JULIE IRETON: Her parents had just split up. Her father wasn't in her life and her relationship with her mother was strained.

KASIE MORRIS: He was an ear. He was someone who was there to listen and support. I felt like he saw me. He... he made me feel valuable I guess...

JULIE IRETON: Tim Stanutz was 23 years older than she was.

KASIE MORRIS: Yeah he was good support.

JULIE IRETON: Casey Morris was in grade 11 when things escalated to a new level.

KASIE MORRIS: He gained my trust over the years. The physical aspect kind of started oddly with just a hug in one of the back rooms in the music room one night after school where he just he hugged me and he didn't let go. It was the type of hug that you give someone who you feel needs support and comforting. And even the, you know, when you hug someone and you want to release it and you do that kind of tap to pull away. He didn't let me pull away at that and I found it very odd at the time thinking, 'Well I don't need support, but maybe he needs this.' And so I let him have this hug but... I know that ultimately I gave him such control in that moment and didn't let him release me. And then from there very quickly it escalated to hands wandering and different touching, and that- that happened within a few days after that hug. It quickly progressed to hands down the pants and up the shirt and... and you know physical masturbation and fingering and touching. It was really overwhelming. I remember there's a certain amount of enjoyment from it, but also fear. I didn't know what was going on or why he was doing it or what he wanted from me.

JULIE IRETON: And he didn't stop.

KASIE MORRIS: No. It pretty much went right on until I graduated.

JULIE IRETON: Kasie Morris didn't want this kind of attention. She knew it was wrong. It made her uncomfortable but she didn't know how to stop it.

KASIE MORRIS: We... I actually saw him a couple years after graduating. So I... It was at Bell. And I think I was probably there for one of my brother's concerts. I sat him down and I tried to make him understand that there had been damage done and that what he did wasn't OK. I remember trying to- to- to make him see what if someone who was doing that to your daughter, how would you feel? But there was still never any reaction. Still the same straight face.

JULIE IRETON: At this point, Kasie was in her early 20s and Laurie was in high school.

KASIE MORRIS: The moment I learned- I learned shortly after I press charges that she was younger than me. So that- that part has been a very painful struggle for the last two years. Getting to know her and getting to know her story has been painful because it happened to someone else but there's been a certain catharsis because I know I'm not alone. But it is hard not to feel immense guilt and shame that I didn't speak up when it happened.

JULIE IRETON: She believes that other teachers and band trip chaperones could have and should have raised alarm bells. Two people who worked and volunteered with this music teacher have told me they warned Stanutz not to spend so much time alone with teen girls. But the victims tell me abuse continued.

KASIE MORRIS: Nobody wants to see what's right in front of their eyes when someone is also such a positive influence. It's the reason I didn't want to stop them and didn't want to call them out and... The first time adults found out about what happened it was in was a couple years after I graduated and the reaction was to shame me and blame me. And...

JULIE IRETON: And that shame and blame was part of the reason she left Ottawa and headed to the east coast.

KASIE MORRIS: I've never really wanted to go back to Ottawa. It had huge defects on my life afterwards. Relationships, sex... I mean I had denied this for almost two decades. So it's- there's a certain amount of denial that makes things easier to get through your daily life, when you have to function in your daily life and you have to go to work. Sometimes it's hard to have...

JULIE IRETON: But she didn't hesitate when she heard about the initial charges against Stanutz. Kasie Morris called the police the same day.

KASIE MORRIS: Right. So I called as soon as I- within the hour or two of seeing a news article just to calm down I called out to them... The detective on that Saturday morning.

JULIE IRETON: After investigating Kasie's allegations, police laid charges. In the end a total of six counts including sexual assault and sexual exploitation were filed against Tim Stanutz. The preliminary trial was set for August 2017. Then everything changed.

EMERGENCY CALL OPERATOR: Ottawa Fire. What's your emergency?

WOMAN: Yes. Hi. A big truck is on fire.

JULIE IRETON: Stanutz was dead. A police officer called Kasie Morris to tell her the news.

KASIE MORRIS: Every emotion possible, I mean I certainly... I left work that day and I- I broke down. There was everything from rage, sorrow and a huge relief. I mean... There was relief at knowing I wasn't going to have to go to court in front of strangers and talk. But a lot of anger that I felt that I'd opened up a wound and come forward for something that felt like it wasn't gonna pay off because...

JULIE IRETON: The charges against Stanutz were stayed.

KASIE MORRIS: And so nothing was going to happen. And that was very painful. When I finally made the decision to come forward I had fought with year- for years with this. This pain that I had finally reached a point where I realized I didn't do anything. He destroyed himself and he was responsible for all of this. And I felt that his death robbed him of that responsibility again and left us just hanging.

JULIE IRETON: A church funeral for Tim Stanutz was held in a small village on the outskirts of Ottawa on May 25th, 2017. Friends, family, former colleagues and students were there. The allegations against him were set aside. Buried. Laurie Howet felt empty.

LAURIE HOWET: I mean he- only he knows how many victims there are. What are we supposed to do? Because we know this happened to us. Our families believe us. Our therapist believes us. The police believe us. But we get no justice.

JULIE IRETON: And then another woman came out of the shadows. She got in touch with me. Another woman coming to terms with abuse.

SARAH BUCHANAN: ...it was a nervous drive but it was a good drive.

JULIE IRETON: Yeah. You're feeling nervous about this, huh?

SARAH BUCHANAN: A little bit.

JULIE IRETON: Take a deep breath.

SARAH BUCHANAN: [inhales, exhales] It's not live right?

JULIE IRETON: No absolutely not. Absolutely not.

JULIE IRETON: Sarah Buchanan was Tim Stanutz's student in the early 1990s. Another brown haired girl.

SARAH BUCHANAN: Since this has come out and I've- I've seen pictures of Kasie and Laurie, I can't help but feel how awkwardly strange that is that all three of us have similar features.

JULIE IRETON: Sarah Buchanan, now Sarah Hon, started music at Bell High School in 1991. Laurie Howat would have been starting 4-year-old kindergarten that year, and Kasie Morris was 9.

SARAH BUCHANAN: I owe them an apology that I didn't stand up back then and say something in the way that I probably could have or should have.

JULIE IRETON: Sarah Hon is married. She has three daughters and she now lives in Bayfield, Ontario on the banks of Lake Huron.

SARAH BUCHANAN: I know this is forever has changed my life and it's changed my relationship my kids and in a sense...

JULIE IRETON: Sarah Hon's story is remarkably similar to the other women. As a teen, Tim Stanutz was her unofficial counsellor and intimate confidante.

SARAH BUCHANAN: At that time I just felt so alone and to have somebody who is an adult that you are supposed to trust to be able to come and be that for you was something amazing at that particular time before things changed.

JULIE IRETON: What upsets her now is she says adults knew something was going on. Or if they didn't know they definitely suspected. Sarah Hon says one evening in 1994 another teacher at Bell called her parents to a meeting. Her mom and dad were also teachers at nearby schools.

SARAH BUCHANAN: They went and they- they met with another teacher and when they came back I was given all of these directions as to I wasn't allowed to be in the music room alone, I wasn't allowed to have any alone time with Mr. Stanutz whatsoever but I...

JULIE IRETON: These adults had concerns but it was the teenager who was told to change her behaviour.

SARAH BUCHANAN: I knew that I was supposed to stay away. I don't know if anything was said to Tim Stanutz.

JULIE IRETON: Sarah says at the time neither her mom nor her dad told her exactly why things had to change.

SARAH BUCHANAN: So I called him and I was just... I said I'm sorry if I've done anything wrong. I don't know. And he was really upset. He had, he had no knowledge on that at all...

JULIE IRETON: Her parents wanted Stanutz's special attention to end. But Sarah Hon says it was the opposite that happened.

SARAH BUCHANAN: Something popped in him, or all of a sudden if there was any- any feelings of that he was trying to do something criminal with me then this was the time. Now he was gonna turn on that button and go for it because now all of a sudden it felt like things were being taken away from him.

JULIE IRETON: At this time in 1994 Sarah Hon was part of a quintet at Bell. It was led by their teacher Tim Stanutz and it meant that he and Sarah would spend a lot of time together outside school.

SARAH BUCHANAN: And we recorded three songs and I'm in two of them playing the flute and singing.

[Music: singing]

JULIE IRETON: On the cover of this recording, a tape cassette, the five group members are all dressed up. Tim Stanutz has his arm around Sarah.

SARAH BUCHANAN: And then we end up doing gigs... during the evenings or weekends and...

JULIE IRETON: A lot of extracurricular time was spent with her teacher. He took her to the mall. He listened. He was supportive, even protective, of her. Sarah welcomed this attention but then the relationship veered into illicit territory.

SARAH BUCHANAN: It became very, very much about physical touch and fondling and groping and seeing how far he could take it.

JULIE IRETON: One evening Tim Stanutz took her home.

SARAH BUCHANAN: My parents had gone away and I'm not sure where they had gone. And my sister his family was away too. He had said that his wife was in Timmins and she was visiting family there and that I could stay with him, and that way he could take me to and from school. I wouldn't be worried about anything. I'd be completely safe.

JULIE IRETON: She remembers the two of them drove to his home in his family's minivan and he asked her to duck down before they got to his neighbourhood.

SARAH BUCHANAN: Partway through the drive I would have to get on the floor of the van because he didn't want to be seen with anybody in the vehicle.

JULIE IRETON: Her teacher drove around to the back gate and then Sarah snuck into the backyard and she says he'd unlocked the door and let her in. She remembers they spent the evenings watching movies in the basement like teenagers. Then it was time for bed.

SARAH BUCHANAN: We went to bed and I remember feeling that this was not right. And I felt so sick and I didn't know what to do and I didn't know how to get out of it or say this. I changed my mind. I went into to the bathroom and kind of hid behind... behind there so he couldn't see me change. I came out in pyjamas and got right into the bed which then made me also feel really ill because I thought I'm in my teacher's bed... who's married and... and- and I'm lying here and this is not where I'm supposed to be. I remember feeling so sick and Mr. Stanutz trying to calm me down saying that it was OK and that everything's OK. We're just gonna go to bed, nothing's going to happen, it's gonna be OK. And I went and threw up in his washroom. I physically couldn't take the stress of where I thought this was going. And I went back into bed and he lay beside me, just in his boxers, and I eventually fell asleep and then he took me to school the next day.

JULIE IRETON: She remembers there was sexual activity that week but not intercourse.

JULIE IRETON: Did you go back to his house?

SARAH BUCHANAN: Every night until- until the week was over.

JULIE IRETON: Sarah Hon never told an adult. Decades later that experience still brings pain, guilt and shame. She still hasn't told her parents and it's been 26 years.

SARAH BUCHANAN: I think he used them. I think he preyed upon their... their knowledge of what a teacher is and how they can be to a young child. So it's something we just never talked about, something I know...

JULIE IRETON: Sarah Hon is now 44. There is a distance between her and her parents. She has trouble going back to her childhood home, her parents’ home, and goes back only rarely. Sarah never went to police or laid charges and this is the first time that she's ever told her story to anyone other than her husband and a close friend.

SARAH BUCHANAN: But I think my parents will be- will be stunned. It's going to hurt them when it all comes out, I think.

JULIE IRETON: After months of investigating more and more victims are finding the courage to tell me their stories. And a disturbing coherent picture is emerging. There is a complicated web of crimes, predators and survivors going all the way back to the 1960s. But as I start putting these pieces together I realize all the dark secrets at Bell High School began to unravel because of the youngest victim, Laurie Howet.

LAURIE HOWET: It's up to me if I want to press charges or not. And I said yes.

JULIE IRETON: She was the first former student at Bell High to tell police about abuse at that high school.

SOUNDCLIP

NEWS REPORTER: Police charged 56-year-old Timothy Stanutz of the Ottawa Carlton District School Board.

JULIE IRETON: This initially anonymous young woman who first reports Stanutz's abuse actually motivates Peter Hamer to come forward about his abusive music teacher.

SOUNDCLIP

NEWS ANCHOR: Police have charged 72-year-old Robert Clarke with sexual assault. It concerns...

JULIE IRETON: Then within a week, yet another set of victims starts talking to police and the crimes of the coach, Don Greenham, come into focus.

SOUNDCLIP

NEWS REPORTER: Do you have anything to say about the charges laid against you?

NEWS ANCHOR: Outside the courthouse, Greenham mean his family wouldn't speak to reporters...

JULIE IRETON: It all began with Laurie Howat speaking out in 2016. And now I'm aware of 44 victims abused by these three teachers. Men who all worked at Bell High School. And now, these men and women are meeting each other.

PETER HAMER: And I... I always thought, 'OK there's somebody out there that actually made this happen that's not me,' right? And it's- it's the victims of Tim Stanutz. And here you are. And like so this is... this is all you.

LAURIE HOWET: I didn't know what I wanted out of this. I didn't know if I wanted criminal charges or if anything to come of this. I just needed to tell somebody because continuing to lie and keep his secret was damaging me demise.

JULIE IRETON: Peter Hamer and Laurie Howat are from different generations... But immediately they seem comfortable together, like old friends who share similar scars.

PETER HAMER: It's hard. I didn't think until I was driving here that this would be an emotional meeting. I thought this is great. You know, I had a good conversation and I get to meet you and say thank you because what you did started such an amazing and, frankly, horrible journey. [sniffles] It's not because I went to the principle because of what I did. Not put Stanutz in the school. And then you end up being a victim of him... [sniffles]

LAURIE HOWET: He was already a predator and wherever he ended up-

PETER HAMER: I know, I get it all. It's just... it's- it's tough. Look at this. It's just crazy.

JULIE IRETON: Their experiences were different and they were touched by different teachers. But there's a kind of solidarity.

LAURIE HOWET: It feels good to know there is another person in the world who knows what I go through every day and has felt the things that I've felt. And it's horrible that there's another person and that there are many other people that know that. But it is a comfort.

PETER HAMER: You completely get where my headspace is. I get it. I understand everything that you're talking about, and...

JULIE IRETON: Peter find some solace talking to Laurie but he's about to be taken outside of his comfort zone. Bob Clarke is finally heading to court and Peter will be there. It's been almost two years since Peter first went to police. Clarke's case is now going to be heard.

PETER HAMER: I'm terrified of seeing him again. I'm in constant panic that Bob Clarke will die before tomorrow at 2:00. I want him to be alive to be held accountable.

JULIE IRETON: In the spring of 2018 Peter readies himself to face his old teacher in court.

PETER HAMER: When it comes to historical sexual assault it's one person's word against another, right? And... and that's probably a lot of the reason a lot of people don't come forward. And...

JULIE IRETON: Peter Hamer stands outside the courthouse. He tugs at his grey beard. He's wearing a leather jacket and jeans. It's taken Peter more than 30 years to face the teacher who abused his authority and trust.

PETER HAMER: You feel like nobody's really going to care anyways.

JULIE IRETON: At this moment in time, Peter isn't the only one finding his voice. The #METOO movement is empowering many women and men to speak out.

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[Sound: Seth Meyers hosting the 2018 Golden Globes]

SETH MEYERS: It's 2018. Marijuana is finally allowed and sexual harassment finally isn't!

[Sound: crowd cheers]

JULIE IRETON: People are revealing long-held secrets.

SOUNDCLIP

NEWS ANCHOR 1: We're gonna begin this half hour with the latest on Harvey Weinstein's arrest.

NEWS ANCHOR 2: There's been a verdict that has been reached in the Bill Cosby trial. Quickly...

JULIE IRETON: And it feels like right now people are listening in a new way.

SOUNDCLIP

OPRAH WINFREY: It's like a scourge on humanity and it's happening right now. It's happening in families. We know is happening in churches. And in schools and sports teams everywhere.

JULIE IRETON: There's a momentum to this public conversation but it won't quickly solve historic wounds, crimes that took place against kids in spaces where they're supposed to be protected. And it's sad because we could be anywhere in the world right now waiting to hear a case about a teacher who abused students.

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AUSTRALIAN NEWS ANCHOR: For decades, Australian victims of child sex abuse were shunned and silenced...

AMERICAN NEWS REPORTER: ...the worst case of child sexual abuse in an American school in recent history.

JULIE IRETON: The stories are countless in Canada. They include the thousands of Indigenous children abused in residential schools.

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NEWS ANCHOR 3: Separated from their parents and stripped of their identity, many were subjected to horrible physical and sexual abuse.

NEWS ANCHOR 4: And this nation must never forget what it once did to its most vulnerable people.

JULIE IRETON: Peter Hamer feared this day, his day in court, wouldn't come. He thought that Bob Clarke, now in his 70s, would die first.

PETER HAMER: And I thought let him be. Let him not have the guts to take his own life. And then...

JULIE IRETON: The two other predatory teachers from Bell High School did die before their court date, but the day is here. The music teacher is here and Peter is ready.

PETER HAMER: ...which court room it is.

JULIE IRETON: And he's not alone. He's one of eight victims of Bob Clark who went to police. Their allegations will be heard in court.

PETER HAMER: It's been a horrible couple of years since I first came forward and the first charge was- was dropped on him. But I wouldn't exchange those bad years for the rest of my life being silent.

JULIE IRETON: Bob Clarke is about to face the music.

MG: We've been listening to The Band Played On, a CBC investigative podcast by reporter Julie Ireton and producer Kristin Nelson. Tomorrow, the only surviving predatory teacher ends up in court and his demons inside are revealed. If you want to hear the entire podcast you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have a story that you'd like to share with Julie you can contact her through the website cbc.ca/thebandplayedon. That is The Current for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for Q. Hassan Minaj, very funny man, writer, comedian, political commentator will be speaking with Ali Hassan about growing up in the United States and feeling like an insider and an outsider and how all of that fuelled his Netflix satirical show, Patriot Act. Hassan Minaj coming up in just a moment on CBC Radio One. We leave you today with some music from one of the world's biggest pop stars. There is a Canadian connection to this American. Taylor Swift found inspiration for one of the songs on her new album 'Lover' from the students at Toronto's mighty Regent Park School of Music and some of those students are performing on the sampled loop that forms the backdrop of the song 'It's Nice To Have A Friend.' A little bit of Taylor for you. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

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[Music: It's Nice To Have A Friend by Taylor Swift]

The Current Transcript for August 28, 2019

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