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The Current Transcript for December 21, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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A new study from Auburn University finds that microbes can live up 10 days inside an airplane just long enough to infect you and ruin your entire vacation.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Whether it is holiday travel or a flight for work, you and your fellow passengers are not alone at 30,000 feet. There may be thousands of colony forming units of bacteria per square inch hurtling along through the skies with you. Of course you need to think about the airline bathrooms but the real culprit is the tray table in front of you and that handy backseat pocket. From cold viruses to superbugs particular germs are persistent stowaways on airlines of all stripes and flights of durations. In half an hour three well-travelled germ-o-phobes, two of them scientists, give us the dirt on the unwanted travel bugs and how to avoid them. Also today: Helpless in the wild.

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They lose their balance to they are salivating. We call them droopy drawers. They are unable to keep weight on and they waste away and eventually die.

AMT: Scores of deer ain Alberta and Saskatchewan have been succumbing to chronic wasting disease. A Contagious and always deadly degenerative illness. And now preliminary research shows monkeys can contract the disease which suggests humans may be susceptible. The implications are huge for those who hunt and eat the meat, especially those in First Nations communities and were exploring that issue in an hour. And:

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I went to three different markets to find unsliced sandwich bread, and I could not find any. That's the bread dilemma we face.

AMT: From Julia Child's culinary obsessions to political uprising and government controls, bread has long played a special controversial and crucial role in history. So when some of the most powerful and omnipresent retailers are named in a criminal investigation into price fixing, the implications can go far beyond your lunchtime sandwich. We're starting there. I am Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Bread price-fixing: Investigation into at least 7 companies

Guests: Marina Strauss, William Rubel

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[Music]

VOICE 1: The price fixing is sort of like it figures in a way, almost because you know the telecoms have done the same things. So and also to happen in Canada that is also unnerving, but at least they are owning up to it, which is better pretending that it is not there.

VOICE 2: If you raise the price too high, you know, like it makes it hard for people that don't have the money don't have the means you know.

VOICE 3: I dont think that is cool at all. Yes. And if they are giving money back, trying to make it right, then why do it in the first place?

AMT: Some Toronto consumers reacting to the news they've been paying too much dough for their bread for 14 years. That is how long the bread price fixing scheme was in place. The Loblaw grocery chain and its parent company George Weston Ltd admitted yesterday to the arrangement which lasted from 2001 to 2015. It is offering consumers a 25 dollar gift card as part of a mea culpa. The companies alerted Canada's competition bureau once they say they discovered what was going on and the bureau's investigation now continues. But the news has left shoppers wondering what else in their grocery basket may have an inflated price. Marina Strauss has been following the story closely. She is the retailing reporter for The Globe and Mail. She joins us from Toronto, hello.

MARINA STRAUSS: Hi Anna Maria. How are you?

AMT: Well I'm really curious. What exactly were these companies admitting to?

MARINA STRAUSS: Well they were admitting to agreeing together to increase prices on a constant basis over 14 years of packaged bread. There are elements we don't know for sure. We don't know which particular packaged breads these are but we know that Weston has Weston bread and Wonder bread. We know there is Dempster's bread of Canada food. So this is an allegation that 7 companies - 7 of the biggest companies that make bread or sell bread were conspiring together to increase prices. They had agreed in advance that at a certain date these prices would increase over 14 years. That's a long time.

AMT: Marina do we know how much the increase was?

MARINA STRAUSS: We do not. That's another element we do not know. There's been guesses or estimates. I mean this could have been hundreds of dollars for the average consumer. And this is a staple for the average consumer. This did not affect a small portion of the population. People eat bread. This is a basic and these companies - and we're talking about Canada's three largest grocery chains -Loblaws, Metro, that are alleged to have done this. The two biggest bread makers: Western bakeries which is part of the whole Loblaw Western Empire, the biggest retailer in Canada and Canada Bread. The other biggie Walmart, Discounter and Giant Tigers. So that's quite a group of the companies that are alleged to have done this. Loblaws and George Weston came forward and admitted it. So this is how this all came out as a shock. Actually was two days ago, at around 4:00 in the afternoon we got this bombshell. And actually a few of the other companies are saying they have no evidence that this has happened. But it's a criminal investigation and it continues then it's serious stuff. It raises all sorts of questions

AMT: Yes and I've got so many. First of all why did Loblaws come forward? Do we know?

MARINA STRAUSS: Everyone is asking that. I mean Loblaws says that it wasn't aware of this 14 years and became aware and immediately went to the Bureau went to the competition bureau and told them what was happening. I mean there are other theories out there. Was there some whistle blower or was there some disgruntled former employee who was about to rat on them? We don't know. We don't know that. We just know that Loblaw came forward and its parent company Weston, George Weston came forward and as a result of that the bureau gave them leniency. They have this immunity program that a company that rat on the other, that brings forward the information gets dealt with leniently and they will not be charged. They will not have criminal charges facing them.

AMT: This is big because what are the penalties? The penalties are big aren't they?

MARINA STRAUSS: They are big. I mean we're talking of 24 million dollars. We're talking maximum 14 years in prison or both. Now for a company like Loblaw's, we're talking about 46-47 million dollars a year in revenue company. It is a drop in the bucket. Nobody wants to go to jail. There's reputation here. Loblaws, it was very interesting how it came for word. It was already with the press release. Mea culpa, I'm sorry, they had their 25 dollar gift card program already. They came forward and said that they already have measures in place to prevent this in the future. They're doing what they can. I mean a public relations professional would probably give them high marks.

AMT: And we know of course that both Metro and Sobeys have said we don't believe that we have done anything wrong we are cooperating with the investigation. Loblaw has said this and so we know that the Loblaw's grocery stores. Do we know if this extended to their other stores? What else do they own? They own No Frills, Shoppers Drug Mart. They all sell bread. Would it be all of them? Do we know that?

MARINA STRAUSS: Anna Maria, we don’t'. There's another element. We do not know which banners, which chains it affects. I can assume it was pretty big. You know probably affected the Real Canadian Superstore in the West, their Loblaw chain, No Frill, Provigo in Quebec, the Atlantic Superstore. Those are their major chains and one would assume this was pretty big in effected a lot of chains. Loblaws is big. This is a company that controls around 30 percent of the food retailing market in Canada. The five largest food retailers in Canada really dominate. I mean they control 80 percent of the market and that's the three biggies that I mentioned; Loblaws, Sobeys and Metro and Walmart which is also alleged in this matter and Costco is the other one. There's a lot of concentration in this market. I think that's the underlying question here. I mean you would start it by asking okay this is bread and it is basic and it's sad for a lot of families. But you know it raises the question whether other isles?

AMT: Well that's what I was going to ask you. Why bread and what else might be out there?

MARINA STRAUSS: Why bread. We don't know but we do know that George Weston is very big in bread, a very important products for grocery retailers. As I said almost everyone buys it. I mean there's issues with bread and they have faced pressures in the bread aisle because there are fewer people who were buying bread. It has some perception of being not the healthiest product. The low carb diets that came out in the last decade did affect sales. So they had pressure in the bread aisle but it's also omnipresent and it's often used as a loss leader. There's a lot of discounting going on in Canada. Walmart has come, Costco. There's a lot of pressure on pricing. So there would certainly be motivation to try to get the price up in that aisle.

AMT: It's interesting now because it is so widespread if consumers are mad about it, there are independent grocers but not a lot of places to go.

MARINA STRAUSS: The independents are really angry about this. They've been telling the competition bureau, warning them for years that it's not an even playing field anymore. And when pricing shifts from one side to the other, the independents - the small grocers - really feel that heat. And I can tell you that a couple of years ago the Federation - the group that represents independent grocers - went to the Bureau warned them that their members were being told about pricing was basically one supplier saying that while the other supplier will be increasing the price the same as I am and they were worried about that.

AMT: Marina I just want to ask you though. We did request an interview with a competition bureau on all of this and they're required to keep a bylaw a keep details of the investigation confidential they say. But I am going to read a statement that they sent us: "This investigation is another example of the importance of the competition Bureau's immunity program. These programs have both proven to be effective means of uncovering and breaking cartel activities prohibited by the competition act. Without the many cartels would go undetected." So they have immunity. Is this going to be an issue down the road? I mean how many people are actually prosecuted under this kind of thing?

MARINA STRAUSS: Well that is why we don't see these types of cases very often. Not many are prosecuted. It is very hard to prove. I mean how really do you compare competition of one grocer versus the other is just trying to keep prices the way everybody else is, versus really inspiring in agreeing in advance to keep those prices the same. It's very hard to prove. And that's why I mean people are asking me how could this have gone on for 14 years without being detected. And there you have it. It's very hard to prove unless one of the companies involved comes forward and spill the bean and they are dealt with leniently.

AMT: Marina we have to leave it there but thank you for your insights into all of this.

MARINA STRAUSS: Well thank you so much. Bye

AMT: Bye bye. That's Marina Strauss. She covers retailing for the Globe and Mail. She's in Toronto. Now we did request an interview with Galen G. Weston, CEO George Weston limited and Loblaw companies Ltd. He declined our request. We asked for a statement. We did not receive one. We did catch up with a baker to ask him about what bread means to him and his customers. Bertrand Alepee is the chef and owner of the Tempered Room Patisserie in Toronto.

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[Music]

Bread is perceived as like a commodity that should be affordable to everyone and everybody uses bread on a daily basis. It's got a lot of symbolism from religion to history. It's just something that I think people crave as well and it's kind of like your first go-to food. Like you can get really full on bread so it's a very easy food item to consume and feed you entire family.

[Music]

From France, well like to me it's a symbol. It's food, it's breakfast, it's something that you share with your friend, it's a smile. I would say for me like the most memory that we come back would be like getting a baguette, like leaving school going so bakery and obviously the backer would time it because they know that people inside are leaving school, or leaving so there is a new batch of baguettes coming out of the oven like the smell and just like holding. That's just like you know as a kid that would definitely be like my mum letting me hold this like one piece of gold and just ripping into it and getting in trouble for it, sometimes. [Laughs]

[Music]

AMT: Well my next guest knows a thing or two about bread and the role that plays within societies and our collective history. William Rubel is the author of Bread a Global History. He is in Santa Cruz, California. Hello.

WILLIAM RUBEL: Hello.

AMT: When do we first start to see civil unrest over the pricing and availability of bread?

MARINA STRAUSS: Well we probably don't know that. I would think it's a very very long time ago. Bread is the staple food for all the people of southwest Asia the Levant fertile crescent where bread comes from. And then of course it moved into Greece to Europe and eventually all around the world as the Europeans moved out and colonised the rest of the world.

AMT: And as you look at the history, did you see a point where the state steps in an attempt to control the price of bread anywhere?

MARINA STRAUSS: Well yes but breads have been under price control for thousands of years. We know in Rome, there were price controls. In Egypt bread was controlled. We wouldn't know when it started because bread is the staple food for our culture. Rice was the staple food for parts of Asia, bread has been the staple food for the countries that we come from and meaning that more than half of our calories have traditionally come from bread. Now worldwide 30 percent of human calories comes from wheat. Most of that in the form of bread.

AMT: And so it remains so important. The whole issue of bread was part of the French Revolution was it not?

AMT: Yes it was by the French revolution. In our own culture, answering your question regarding bread controls, the British began controlling the price of bread in the 1200 and that bread had price controls into the 19th century as we did in Canada and in the early United States as well. The proximate cause of the French Revolution was a price spike in bread due to bad harvests. But of course the underlying costs of revolutions is extreme inequality in wealth and then the perception on the part of the poor majority that the deck is stacked against them. We need to have every culture including Canada, including the United States, even big mature economies like ours requires that our poorer citizens are able to feed their families with a cheap calorie, which is bred in our culture, and have money left over for schoolbooks, for going to the movies, for buying clothes...

AMT: I mean we saw some of this play out in the Arab Spring, did we not, and especially in Egypt? That played a role but that the cast of wheat, going into the cast of bread, going into the wider issue of inequality.

WILLIAM RUBEL: That's right. Egypt is still a place where over half - many people's diets, more than half of their calories are coming from bread. And when you get a situation where there's extreme inequalities of wealth and the perception that the deck is stacked against you then that's when you get revolution.

AMT: So if we restart this conversation about bread price fixing here in Canada who has the most to lose when these practices are allowed to happen?

WILLIAM RUBEL: The poor, ultimately, the need says well. Social stability requires a level playing field in the sense that we all have a chance to better ourselves that if were poor were not [unintelligible] more for food so someone else becomes even more of a billionaire than they already are.

AMT: So in terms of what you've looked at, the cost of wheat to the importance of wheat, the way governments control this or have you really plays in to the entire fabric of societies, of a range of societies.

WILLIAM RUBEL: That's right when the British government, the Canadian government, the American government and most governments in the world you stopped subsidising bread, beginning in the 19th century and that still extends - You know France has price controls. When you go to Paris, there is a price control baguette that costs I think a euro, a Euro 10 Euro cents right now. But when governments stop subsidising bread there still is a social contract that the system is going to produce inexpensive bread, stable prices. It's not written down like a bread a bread support low or a bread subsidy law but it's implied. And certainly you don't have to worry in Canada about a price fixing scheme that I'm sure was a matter of pennies per loaf adds up. But overall it's really important governments have to guarantee a level playing field.

AMT: We have to leave it there. We are out of time but thank you for your thoughts today.

WILLIAM RUBEL: Thank you very much, Anna Maria

AMT: William Rubel author of Bread: A Global History. He's in Santa Cruz, California. We want to hear from you on this. What do you make of this price fixing controversy? Find us on Facebook. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Go to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrentcurrent. Click on the Contact link. Stay with us. The news is next. Then if you're flying this holiday season you are not alone. You've got germs coming with you.

AMT: [Music: Theme]

Germs on a plane: How to stay healthy while travelling

Guests: Charles Gerba, Gilbert Ott, Jason Tetro

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, chronic wasting disease is spreading through North American herds of deer and other related animals. Scientists are afraid it could possibly spread to humans eventually. We'll talk about that in half an hour. We'll look into the roots of the wasting disease and what can be done to stop its spread. We'll also hear just how grimy and germy it gets inside an airplane. But first I want to let you know about a documentary coming up tomorrow. Michael Morin of Ottawa is helping out at Christmas by dressing up as St. Nick for the first time this holiday. The suit he's going to wear has an impressive pedigree. It is the same red and white outfit the three previous high profile Santa's helpers have worn in the past and it seems to have a bit of magic in its fibres.

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[Sounds: Bells and chatter]

MICHAEL MORIN: [In the background] Ho Ho Ho.

MICHAEL MORIN: I have to say normally I'm a very introverted person. I'm very shy and very reserved. I'm the type that, in a crowd, I will watch and observe. I'm more of a one on one conversation.

VOICE 1: Okay guys come on here have a seat.

MICHAEL MORIN: [In the background] Come on in. Come on in.

MICHAEL MORIN: But when I put a suit on and I go out into a crowd I start being more, little more, extroverted. I go up to people because people are drawn to me when I'm dressed this way. And so it's easier to make contact.

VOICE 2: Hey Santa.

MICHAEL MORIN: [In the background] Hey how are you doing?

MICHAEL MORIN: This is what it's all about. This it really is what it's all about, just making people smile and sing songs and just be happy.

[Laughter]

[French singing]

AMT: Well a sneak peek into our documentary Becoming Santa. You can catch the full story tomorrow on The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio 1, on Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent on podcast and on your radio app. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti.

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VOICE 1: I never did introduce myself. Del Griffith. American light fixture Director of Sales, shower curtain ring Division. I sell shower curtain rings. And you are?

VOICE 2: Neil Page.

VOICE 1: Neil Page. Pleased to meet you Neil Page.

VOICE 2: [Moaning] Agh. That feels. God I'm telling you my dogs are barking the day.

VOICE 1: [Moaning] Phew. That feels better.

AMT: Oh yes that time of year again. Many of us are jamming ourselves into airplane seats on holiday treks and occasionally finding ourselves next to strangers like Dell. John Candys character in Planes, Trains and Automobiles who we heard there peeling off his shoes, his socks grossing out Steve Martin's character. Of course stinky feet are not even the worst of it when it comes to airline travel. There are the coughs and sneezes and germs they send circulating through that metal tube at 30,000 feet. It gets worse. Charles Gerba is a microbiologist at the University of Arizona. He studies just how dirty airplanes can get. And he joins us from Tucson, Arizona. Hello.

CHARLES GERBA: Yes. Hello. Good morning.

AMT: Let's talk about the three dirtiest places on an airplane, starting with the cleanest of the three dirtiest. Let's go backwards

[Laughter]

CHARLES GERBA: Yes usually the cleanest is often the overhead, where you put your luggage actually, from where we found out because that's not touched as much. Next germy is actually the tray that comes down in front of you because it's not disinfected or cleaned between flights all the time. If you notice a turnaround, how rapid it is, they don't really have the time. And then a toilet really is the worst case. There you get about one toilet per 50 people and on a long flight. Almost everybody ends up using it all the time. So it tends to be the germiest toilet you'll ever enter because it's difficult for people to wash their hands. The water cuts off. You have to put it back on the sink is too small. And so it ends up being a pretty germy place, probably the germiest your toilet you'll ever enter.

AMT: So we kind of expect that toilet would be. Is it true that you actually sometimes on the plane sit there and time people in the washrooms?

CHARLES GERBA: Yes I was kind of getting an idea of sitting in the bathroom. Interesting men average around two minutes and women about three and a half minutes in the restroom, if you really want to know at least [cross talk].

AMT: And so they're spreading a lot of germs are they Chuck?

CHARLES GERBA: It's really hard to maintain a cleanliness in there. Really because it's hard to wash your hands and the latch gets contaminated. So it's a really tough one to really keep clean, and even wash your hands if you try to do it sometimes in there, it's not easy in that small compartment.

AMT: So we might expect that but let's go back to the tray tables. What have you actually found on them?

CHARLES GERBA: Oh we actually - I've tested a number of flights and we find like influenza virus surprisingly, cold viruses, viruses that cause diarrhoea and even on several flights we found methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus or MRSA, which causes skin infections in people.

AMT: MRSA is the superbug isn't it?

CHARLES GERBA: Yes it's causes skin infection. Some people are natural carriers of that. It actually resides in your ear, nose and then you get it on your hands and you touch surfaces and that. So you'll find that they are to - the people who are in the flight before you always leave a trail of germs behind it seems like.

AMT: What can we do about that?

CHARLES GERBA: Well I think the best thing to bring is a hand sanitizer with you can't really wash your hands as much as you want. And that's a real key because like the common cold for example is spread primarily by getting it on your fingers and putting your fingers to your nose or eye. Actually the common cold can be transmitted by rubbing the virus in your eyes. So your hands are really key to this whole thing and using a hand sanitise is probably the best option. You can always carry it with you anywhere you want and it's a really good idea to use a hand sanitise anytime you come out of a public place tot, to be honest.

AMT: Are you a germ-o-phobe?

CHARLES GERBA: You know I used to not to be but I've slowly become one over the years after studying germs on airplanes and other environments. You learn after a while of doing studies that you can pick up germs really readily in public place. You know we travel more than ever before, we touch more surfaces that other people touch, more than any generation in history. So we're actually exposed to more people's germs than any time in history because of that.

AMT: And what about what's actually in the air, in terms of what you might be breathing in?

CHARLES GERBA: Yes the only concern is with transmission of tuberculosis which has been shown to occur among passengers in planes and possibly influenza. Really the risk is really that people right around you A in an airplane goes around not back and forth. So really the air you being exposed to the people on either sides of you, or in front of you, or in back of you all the time. Now the air goes through filters which largely take out microorganisms. But if somebody is coughing or sneezing next you, you're at increased risk or at front or back in front of you. Not much it can do on today's planes because they are so crowded. You just have to look the other way as much as you can I'm afraid.

AMT: Is there a better place than another place to sit on a plane?

CHARLES GERBA: Well yes the exit row because the person in front of you is further away. If you can do the exit rows. Or the bulkhead are the best because nobody's in front of you and so you kind of reduce your risk of exposure at least from that group of people. So that might be a preferred place actually to reduce your exposure.

AMT: What about a window versus isle?

CHARLES GERBA: Isle tends to be a little bit more dangerous you know in several outbreaks of diarrhoea that occurs from viruses on planes, in long flights particularly trans Pacific or transatlantic. It was shown that people who got diarrhoea on the plane, they were running to the restroom all the time. They tended to touch surfaces on the way. So your more exposure to greater chance of getting diarrhoea if you have the aisle seat. So if you're constipated I recommend the aisle seat.

AMT: Okay. I shouldn't be laughing. This is very serious. I want to bring someone else into this conversation though. Gilbert Ott is the very definition of a frequent flyer. He's the creator of the travel website Godsavethepoints.com. He travels between 100 and 200 thousand miles a year. We have reached Gilbert Ott in London, England, where of course he is fresh off an airplane. Hello.

GILBERT OTT: Good morning.

AMT: So we have up to 200,000 air miles a year. Where are you going?

GILBERT OTT: Well in the last week I was in Australia, Japan, the US and I just got back to London this morning. So it varies. And it's always an adventure and especially listening to the program this morning. I'm all the more aware how lucky I am when I don't get sick.

AMT: I was just going to say, how's your health, Gilbert?

GILBERT OTT: Well other than my mental health from hearing all the things that I'm constantly dodging [laughs] it's all right now. Thank you.

AMT: What are you thinking as you listen to Chuck Gerba talk about the kinds of germs that are there on the plane?

GILBERT OTT: Well first I think Chuck is right on. I mean I completely agree with his tips. I also was unaware just how bad the potentials are in terms of MERSA, influenza. And you know of course you hear about the common cold all the time but those are obviously much more life impacting things. And so yes it's just very eye opening to think about it from a realistic perspective. And there are a lot of things that I try to do to minimize it. And fortunately it seems least on the right track according to Chuck.

AMT: So what do you do to try to minimise it, Gilbert?

GILBERT OTT: Well so before a flight I always try to get my immunity up. You know nice fresh orange juice those kind of things, whatever you can do to get the body and especially stay hydrated. I think one of the big things with airplane air especially on older aircraft is that it's very dry and the pressure is bad, so that kind of opens up your mucous membranes and makes you more susceptible to all these things that make you sick. And then on the plane I'm a big fan of self-catering. I really don't like, to Chuck's point, touching too many things. So you know although you can't bring your own water in most cases, I will bring my own snacks and entertainment and do as much as I can to not have to interact with others, not in an antisocial way.

AMT: What about the pillows and the blankets? Do you use them?

GILBERT OTT: I will - I mean again like I think that's another thing. If you can bring your own blanket that you're comfortable with from home, that's definitely a good thing. I know that the practice is for the turnover on those things isn't always perfect. I've been given wet blankets before that you know. There's no good sign of what's going on there. So you know I think as much as you can do to not have to take stuff from other people the better.

AMT: I'm guessing anyone who gets on a plane and would sit next to you who's sneezing and coughing, they don't want to be there either and they don't want to be spreading germs, but what do you do if you end up sitting next to someone who's clearly sick?

GILBERT OTT: Yes it's tough. As Chuck said you know planes are flying fuller than they ever have in the past and so it's tougher to just move. But I think if you find yourself in a lucky position where you're on a flight where there are open seats, you are not doing anything wrong with saying you know 'is it possible to move seats?' And you know ideally to an exit row or a bulkhead, they're very popular. So my tip was kind of a frequent flyer would be to try to reserve those things early in advance. Not only will bulkhead or an exit row get you more legroom but, as Chuck mentioned, it'll put you further away from potential germs spreaders better.

AMT: Chuck Gerba you're also a frequent flyer. What's your best worst experience flying, germ-wise?

CHARLES GERBA: My worst example is a long flight of like nine to 12 hours because you are sitting there for a long time exposed. Actually I follow a lot of the tips that were just given too for that reason. For long flights, it bugs me. I actually had a pulmonary embolism from a long flight one time. So drinking the orange juice and keeping hydrated are really important in these long flights. If you're going to really travel a lot.

AMT: And that of course is even more serious than a germ?

GILBERT OTT: Yes that's what's really important to get up and exercise and move around and keep hydrated all the time so that you don't get - So that's basically, a pulmonary embolism, is blood clot that moves your legs up to your lungs and that can be fairly life threatening. When I had it I asked for more frequent flyer mileage but I didn't get it.

AMT: What did they do? Did they help you?

CHARLES GERBA: You know what there's not much you can do. I thought I was having a heart attack actually when I got off the plane. So they rushed to the hospital and it was a pulmonary embolism. But usually you know in 24 hours whether you're going to survive or not from one of those. You just have to wait for the blood clot to dissolve is what you do. But that does happen on planes. So it's really important if you look through the information given to you in the magazines that it mentions that make sure you keep them moving your feet and getting up once in a while.

AMT: You know as I listen to the two of you I am not flying this holiday season and now I'm kind of grateful. I'm sorry to do this to people driving to an airport.

CHARLES GERBA: There is someone else I want to bring into the discussion. Jason Tetro is a microbiologist and a visiting scientist at the University of Guelph. He's also the author of The Germ Code and the Germ Files. Jason Tetro is in Edmonton. Hello, welcome.

JASON TETRO: Hello there.

AMT: So what are you thinking as you listen to us?

JASON TETRO: Yes this is all part of the course [laughs]. I mainly specialise in infection control, when you're talking about hospitals and also healthcare facilities. And I have to tell you, when you get onto an airplane - and I go on them on a regular basis - you might as well be walking into the E.R. Granted not everybody is going to be as sick but when you've looked at studies of people coming up planes, you probably got about half of them have some kind of illness whether it be respiratory, whether it be gastrointestinal or skin infection. So when you sort of get onto that plane I like to tell people that, imagine that you're walking into an E.R. how are you feeling, well you should be feeling pretty much the same way.

AMT: And when you hear of the areas we talked about the washrooms obviously and the tray tables, is there any other area of a plane that that makes you wary, Jason?

JASON TETRO: Actually most of the time the only thing that makes me wary is the people around me. And the reason is that when you take a look at the actual numbers that you're finding they're low enough to be, what we say is below the minimal and effective dose. In other words, you touch a tray table and you're going to pick up some bacteria and maybe you touch your face. Well actually you're going to touch your face. You touch your face on average 16 times an hour. But the exposure that you get is not usually going to be high enough to cause an infection, unless it happens to be something like the cold or the flu or the noroviruses that caused those major diarrhoea and vomiting events. So in that sense I'm not particularly too worried about that but the people around me. My goodness. You know I think last year I probably put on a modest amount of mileage, probably only about 50,000 miles. But even so, every time I get onto the plane, whether I'm in the middle seat, whether I'm on an aisle or the window I've got somebody within six feet of me who's sputtering. And let me tell you something when you hear that sputter the first thing you want to do is hide. And there's an easy way to do that and that is to carry a scarf with you.

AMT: You wear like a little face mask?

JASON TETRO: Well that's it. Is that back in 2010 when people were really concerned about epidemic influenza. There was an actual study that was done to look at whether or not a scarf would be able to protect you against the droplets that come out of people's mouths. And it was only about 60 percent effective. So I mean it's not going to replace n95 mask that we get in the hospital. But when I'm on a plane I've always got my hand sanitizer, as Chuck Gerba has mentioned and I've always got my scarf with me. And the minute I hear that sputtering I know I've probably got between one to five seconds to get my nose into that scarf or else I'm going to be exposed.

AMT: What about the back pocket of the, you know, the pocket of the seat in front of you?

JASON TETRO: Yeah that that essentially is kind of like the magazine rack in the waiting room. I don't know if you remember but a few years ago they were banned, or they were considered to be banned from waiting rooms because they were so contaminated. Well think about the back seat or pack or that pocket because you've got nice warm environments. It's not really being touched a lot. It's going to be a perfect place for bugs to survive. And then you go in there and you start rustling it up you're going to create dust particles that you might inhale and then of course you've got your hands which eventually are going to come to your face one way or the other. So if you are really interested in finding out what happens in that magazine or you know what should be your next trip, make sure that you are using the hand sanitizer after you've done your reading.

AMT: Okay. These are all good tips. Jason given that you have written both the germ Code and The Germ Files, how did the germs in planes rate compared to germs in other public places?

JASON TETRO: Well I don't find them to be as problematic. I mean I would still rather be in an airplane than say, a Christmas shopping line in the mall.

AMT: Jee you are like a Grinch but keep going [laughs].

JASON TETRO: The thing is I have yet to buy my wife any presents for Christmas. I've got to come up an excuse a really good one.

AMT: That's a good one 'I didn't want to wait in line honey.

JASON TETRO: Yes I didn't want to wait in line.

AMT: So why the line up? Why?

JASON TETRO: Well the thing is that when you're in a line if you can't really go anywhere. And if you are in a major shopping center and you know you've got this line up, there are people who are going to be sick and they're going to be spreading. Because remember - Chuck Gerba talked about this a few seconds ago - there's that cloud that's around you. I don't know if you realize this but every single hour you're shedding between one and 30 million different types of bacteria off of your body. They're not necessarily different types but that's how many you're shedding off your body, and that's going into the air and could possibly get onto another person. Now something like MRSA, well that's something we kind of have to deal with in the community. But other ones that you may not be used to could potentially lead to allergic reactions or even skin infections, there are fungi like Malassezia which can lead to dandruff. So the reality is that everybody around you is kind of a walking Petri plate and you just have to be a little bit careful. And what I like to say from my first book is be a bit observant. You can pretty much tell if someone's sick around you. And if they are then choose a different line.

AMT: Well Chuck Gerba and Gilbert Ott are still with us. Gilbert Ott what are you thinking as you listen to what Jason said?

[Laughter]

GILBERT OTT: This is like all my worst nightmares coming together in one conversation. But I guess it's better to know than not know. I think another important to talk about is - especially with technology on most guns now - is the touch screen. You know again going into the self-catering point everybody is touching those entertainment screens multiple times, and you have no idea where their hands have been. So I think that's another area that is worth considering especially if you have an iPad and you can download some offline content. That's something that I personally like to do because that's another place that I fell like is just prompt to give something awful like these very brilliant guys are talking about which I would probably try to block out of memory for the rest...

AMT: Do any of you carry those little hand wipes and just wipe stuff off?

CHARLES GERBA: Yes I do. I often do them on trays and other surfaces. They have nice little package you can use. So yes particularly table tops and other surfaces we found tend to accumulate organisers because the hands are there so often.

AMT: So they work, do they Chuck, those little wipes?

CHARLES GERBA: Oh yes. Yes we tested them a lot in homes, offices, hospitals and that. They Are quite effective for a wide range of organisms, not necessarily all the viruses but mostly most of the flu viruses you can rid of those and the bacteria.

AMT: So what other tips do you have for us, Chuck?

CHARLES GERBA: Well I think one of the things is not to become overly paranoid here. I think the message is...

AMT: Now you tell us.

[Laughter]

CHARLES GERBA: Gamble all the time with germs, you know the right level of germs, the right germs, the right person next to you. So the whole idea of a good hand hygiene, disinfecting wipes, hand sanitizers that keep the odds in your favor and not in the germs' favor is basically what you're trying to do. So if you're going to gamble you want to lower the deck in your favor.

AMT: OK. Well gentlemen we'll leave it there but thank you for all your all of your information and all of your tips. And happy holidays and happy travels.

[Laughter]

GUESTS: [Crosstalking] Bye bye. Thank you

AMT: I've been speaking with Chuck Gerba. He's a microbiologist at the University of Arizona. He's in Tucson, Arizona. Gilbert Ott is the creator of the travel website Godsavethepoints.com. He joined us from London, England, just got off a flight. And Jason Tetro is a microbiologist and visiting scientist at the University of Guelph. He's the author of The Germ Code and The Germ Files. He joined us from Edmonton. Now over to you tell us what you have seen on flights that either have made you sick or come close to it. Find us on Facebook. Find us on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC. Send us an email from our site cbc.ca/thecurrent. Click on the contact link and if you are heading off on a flight don't forget the hand sanitizer and the scarf. And the wipes. Stay with us. Coming up a deadly disease is spreading through North American deer herds and scientists are researching its potential to cross over to human populations. We'll tell you what they're finding about this chronic wasting disease. In our next half hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Research suggests fatal wildlife disease could spread to humans

Guests: Stefanie Czub, Darrel Rowledge, Jerry Potts

AMT: I am Anna-Maria Tremonti and this is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

In 2005 we had a couple of deer shot. They were positive and then 2008 we had a half dozen deer that were positive. And then in the next couple of years we had a number of sick ones that were harvested. And then 2012 we had a dozen deer shot. They were positive with half of them and visit me so. It is sad and disheartening to find a sick deer like that. You never want to see that.

AMT: Well if you are not a hunter or wildlife conservationist you may never have heard of chronic wasting disease. But you can hear from that clip just how much the disease is spreading and how difficult it can be to face. Chronic wasting diseases similar to mad cow disease which did much to devastate this country's cattle industry. Scientists say their early research points to the possibility that infected meat has the potential to infect people. Conservationists and indigenous people in Canada have been sounding the alarm about this for decades. It seems others are finally taking heed. That clip we just heard was from a documentary called No Accident. It was co-produced by Darrel Rowledge who is also the director of The Alliance for Public Wildlife. He's in our Calgary studio. Hello.

DARREL ROWLEDGE: Good morning.

AMT: What is chronic wasting disease?

DARREL ROWLEDGE: So it is variation, a sister disease to mad cow that affects members of the deer family. But it is a new disease. This is not a longstanding disease of our wildlife. It first appeared in the 60s, was confirmed in a captive wildlife facility in Fort Collins, Colorado. And unfortunately from there they didn't understand what they were dealing with. And two things happened that led to the spread of the epidemic. First of all, there was some of the animals from both Fort Collins and [unintelligible] Wyoming were released to the wild. And secondarily there were some that were transferred to the Colorado zoo. From there they went out to some commercial game forums and from there it has spread in primarily live animals across the continent.

AMT: It affects deer. What other animals does it affect?

DARREL ROWLEDGE: So we don't actually know. But it has been found in white-tailed deer, mule beer, in elk, in moose, and recently in free ranging caribou in Norway. It's a threat to our caribou abroad as well, free ranging rein deer

AMT: That range of animals the deer, the elk, the moose and the caribou those are called cervidae, am I right?

DARREL ROWLEDGE: Yes members of the deer family.

AMT: So it's called a wasting disease. Do they look like they're wasting away? And what point in the disease would that happen?

DARREL ROWLEDGE: At the final stages of the disease the last few months of the life of the animal, and it is always fatal, so there are all these symptoms. They lose their balance. They have attacks here. They're salivating. We call them droopy droolers. There are unable to keep weight on and they waste away and eventually die.

AMT: And how far in to the diseases, when they're originally infected, how long can they go before you notice the change?

DARREL ROWLEDGE: They can look completely normal right up until the end, but during that period they can be spewing prions into the environment and to other animals.

AMT: Okay. And you're saying that the first infected animals in Canada actually came from the States and it's spread from there.

DARREL ROWLEDGE: Yes. And that was confirmed by the expert scientific panel where they looked at this and they confirmed that all of Canada is CWD was imported from the United States, from South Dakota, and it spilled through the fences from there.

AMT: Is that in Western Canada solely or is it moved into the east?

DARREL ROWLEDGE: In the wild and on game farms, it has been found in Alberta and Saskatchewan but is basically right on our border. So it's bordering Manitoba and it is bordering and actually looks like it's crossed the border into Montana.

AMT: Now you're a hunter right?

AMT: I am.

AMT: What kind of impact has chronic wasting disease had on hunters and your ability to hunt these animals?

DARREL ROWLEDGE: So the great concern is we don't want to have people potentially exposed to infected material. So in the areas where there is CWD - This is not a natural disease. So in the areas where it is found it is need to have their animals tested. Unfortunately one of the things that happens is that this disease is being highly contagious. As the prevalence levels increase, people are dissuaded from hunting in those areas and they move into other areas. We now see severe population impacts on wildlife because of the disease and if we don't contain it is just going to continue.

AMT: Yes they do test them. Do they have to be dead to be tested?

DARREL ROWLEDGE: Yes. That is one of the unfortunate parts of this, that there are no adequate like animal tests and attempts to do even long term surveillance have been shown to be really suspect.

AMT: So hunters are being asked basically what? To give the heads of these animals for testing?

DARREL ROWLEDGE: Yes they are.

AMT: And they have to wait.

DARREL ROWLEDGE: Well they should but that's not what's happening. The other tragedy of this is that people are moving potentially infected carcasses into areas that are disease free and it should not be happening.

AMT: Okay well Darrel Rowledge stay with me. I want to bring someone else into this conversation to talk more about the science. There has never been a confirmed case of a human with chronic wasting disease for a long time the prevailing wisdom has been that humans are not susceptible. However developing your research conducted by my next guest suggests that could be very different. Stefanie Czub is a prion searcher with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency the CFIA and she is in Lethbridge, Alberta. Hello.

STEFANIE CZUB: Good morning.

AMT: So you are conducting a study testing their transmission of chronic wasting disease. What are you doing? What are you looking at?

STEFANIE CZUB: We have a number of scientists, not only myself but a rather large group, infected non-human primates is the closest model to humans with chronic wasting disease. And we have chosen a number of different ways to infect these animals. One is into the brain as a proof of concept can those animals actually become infected. Then we are feeding to assess the potential risk waste of your money by consumption of cervidae's meat of cervidae's products. By skin scarification where we [unintelligible] some nicks into a skin of the monkeys and fixtures brain CWD [unintelligible] a deer brain into their skin to assess the risk of [unintelligible] tracing by hunters. And then we have taken blood from CWD infected macaques transfused this blood into another group of animals in order to assess the potential risk of for Fusion which is such a problem in the human disease of BSE in Varian Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.

AMT: Right okay so you're using macaque monkeys to do this.

STEFANIE CZUB: Yes.

AMT: Why that strain of monkey?

STEFANIE CZUB: Well first of all this is the only primates species available to medical research nowadays. They are of course not as closely related to humans as chimpanzees were released but that is completely impossible because of ethical reasons. Then this very same animal model was used by the European community to determine that BSE actually is Varian Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease inhumans. So it has been used already in prion disease.

AMT: Okay I guess I guess we should just remind our listeners. So when there was an outbreak of bovine spongiform encephalopathy among cattle in Canada, in the UK, we were able to see a link to a degenerative disease that begins in the brain with humans called Creutzfeldt-Yakob and this is created by prions - just remind us what prions are.

STEFANIE CZUB: An interesting infectious agent in contrast to viruses and bacteria, it is not containing nucleic acids but is a protein. Actually a protein we, all mammalians carry in our body, and due to the infection this protein becomes mis-folded and then spreads and induces is the disease that I was referring to.

AMT: Okay so how long have you been doing the study now?

STEFANIE CZUB: Well it started in 2000 and in the end we have infected 19 anjmals and we have now number of animals available for assessment. Only five of them. And that refers to the very long incubation time of these prion diseases. It takes really years to develop disease.

AMT: So the four ways you tried to see if those monkeys could be infected which one of those actually made it show up in the monkeys?

STEFANIE CZUB: Two animals out of five in a murder infected into a brain. And it took between four and five years for the animals to develop a [unintelligible] clinical disease, comparable to chronic wasting disease. They were anxious. They showed motor disturbances. There was a tremor and there was also wasting.

AMT: What about the meat eating ones?

STEFANIE CZUB: Those are the three other ones and those animals were ranging between five and six years or down with disease.

AMT: And the other two experiments. Did the monkeys also contract the disease?

STEFANIE CZUB: Not yet. They are still incubating, which is not very surprising to me car. It is a long incubation time. So we are not surprised.

AMT: So you are telling me that the monkey's got the disease. What does that suggest to you about humans?

STEFANIE CZUB: The most concerning results for us are actually the feeding experiment because brain infection it is highly artificial but feeding is a way where you humans could contract the disease. And where it becomes concerning to us is the fact that the muscle tissue of those white-tail deer were from animals which appeared clinically healthy. White-tale deer which were tested only because the farm had a CWD positive case, and the policy is to completely depopulate the farm. All animals are tested and we have taken muscle tissue from animals which did not show clinical disease at all.

AMT: So are you telling me that if people eat meat from a deer with chronic wasting disease, there is the potential that they could become infected since the monkeys were infected?

STEFANIE CZUB: You cannot really [unintelligible] like one to one from humans to macaques. However what did the data suggests is that we are very careful and at least recommend that all animals which are meant for your consumption are tested at least in CWD endemic areas.

AMT: I guess I should reiterate your research has not yet been published. It's still under way.

STEFANIE CZUB: It is still underway. We have five more animals to assess. We have done a number of different essays and that is the reason why we felt [unintelligible] to go to the public. In normal circumstances you would publish this first, discuss it with your peers and then bring it out to the general public and the regulator. But the regulator were aware of those results since earlier this year.

AMT: So what does this mean? I know that the WHO is here that no one should consume anything from a prion infected animal. The CIFA and their centers for disease control all say this. Do You have enough information to be warning hunters and people who eat game?

STEFANIE CZUB: I would I would be testing my animals if I am a hunter. Absolutely.

AMT: Well Stefanie Czub thank you for bringing us up to speed on what you're working on.

STEFANIE CZUB: Thank you very much for having me.

AMT: That is Stefanie Czub. She is a prion researcher with the CFIA the Canada Food Inspection Agency. She's in Lethbridge, Alberta. I have another guest worsening in. First Nations communities say they're already seeing the consequences of chronic wasting disease. The geographic area of infection runs along the southern half of Alberta into Saskatchewan. It covers much of the traditional territory of the Blackfoot confederacy. Jerry Potts as a traditional elder with the Piikani Nation he joins me from the Piikani reserve in southern Alberta. Hello.

JERRY POTTS: Hi.

AMT: So as you listen to her what are you thinking about the chronic wasting disease and that connection that she appears to be finding in these early results of the study?

JERRY POTTS: Well it certainly brings attention to a lot of things that we've been aware of, because this has been an ongoing issue and I think we have - like the first nations I know there was an effort a few years ago to become part of developing some kind of action to address this. And it does seem that the effort that we had put out at that time - this is like 20 years ago. We've certainly - you know it's fallen on deaf years but you know I think it's escalated to a point now where you know something has to be done.

AMT: Have you seen signs of it in the deer that's being hunted amongst those in your first nations community?

JERRY POTTS: The thing is like even on the reserve here, we are outside of the - Like in Alberta conservation on their website. You know if you go and you buy a hunting license, which we don't do because by treaty rights we hunt year round. So there has been little to no awareness of CWD in the first nations' community.

AMT: What role the deer play in the Piikani Nation? How important are the deer?

JERRY POTTS: The deer are very important because like all our whole life existence and our traditional thinking is all based on - is all based on nature and the deer and elk and all the other [unintelligible] are all a big part of that. When you look at nature you hurt one part it's going to hurt something else because we can not just look at one thing we have to look at everything the way we live.

AMT: So yeah you're hunting the meat but there is a spiritual significance as well, is there not?

JERRY POTTS: Oh absolutely. The spiritual part of things. You know there's a process that we do when you're taking something from the land we have to give something back. So that is how the traditional people go out and they hunt.

AMT: So if you cannot hunt in that particular area because you are worried about chronic wasting disease what happens to the deer population?

JERRY POTTS: All the deer population will just increase. And if there is infected deer there it's only going to be spreading more and more. And I know last year it was very alarming because very close to Lethbridge there had tested some deer for CWD there and that is getting pretty close to home here. That is only about 80 kilometers away.

AMT: You have indigenous hunting rights are obviously. What are the implications if chronic wasting disease is around you? What are the implications for your hunting rates?

JERRY POTTS: Well I think the more I understand where chronic wasting disease comes from, it raises so many red flakes because first nations and conservation Alberta and I know in Saskatchewan and Manitoba hunting right - They are always looking for ways to take that away from us. The areas we can hunt are getting more and more restrictive. They are turning more places into parks. Up in the area over in the field, for example they've tested out there and they invite every year members of the first nation community to go over there and hunt. And so this year a couple guys I know that have gone there regularly said well they're not going there because they heard EWD in the elk over there and it's almost like they are poisoned. That's the kind of thing where it's affecting us. And now like the deer meat is a very very accessible animal on the river bottoms here.

AMT: But of course you would be worried about contamination obviously.

JERRY POTTS: Absolutely. Well that's the underlying tone and I think we tried just by word and mouth, when we are talking. But you know= through Alberta and a lot of these other groups there's never been an effort made to reach out to the First Nations or create awareness. It is that old stigmatism about how First Nations are always kind of the last people to know, or just when it becomes a big problem then they will address it.

AMT: Well we did approach the Public Health Agency of Canada and ask them about this and we got a statement and I'm going to read a little bit of it to you and I'm quoting here: "Measures have been taken to both the federal and provincial levels to reduce human exposure to CWD by preventing known infected animals from entering the food chain or being used as a source of ingredients in health products that contain antler velvet. When wild animals of the cervidae family such as deer and moose and elk are harvested in areas where CWD is known to occur, the province offers hunters the opportunity to test their harvests and advises them not to eat CWD positive in animals or animals that look sick." That's the quote Jerry Pott. Is that helpful to you at all?

JERRY POTTS: You know I've not heard or seen you know like on our bulletin board reservation, I personally know the health director here in my community. I talk to him on a regular basis. I've briefed what they're doing with CWD. He has never never heard anything from that group in Ottawa like to send out any kind of a warning or anything. The Chief in Counsel very much on top of this staff have never received any information like that.

AMT: How would you like to see the risk of chronic wasting disease addressed to then, in your own community? What do you want to see happen?

JERRY POTTS: Every other organization or group that wants to do something we are dealing with First Nation people, you have to get the First Nation people are aware of what's going on and they have to be the ones to tell their own people about what the dangers are and the things to look out for. This whole testing system you know that has to be something. Because you got to remember, there is a lot folks that hunt out here on the reservation. They will walk down to the river and drag a deer home and they got no means to take the animal into town for testing. The implications are horrendous.

AMT: Well not just for the hunters obviously but for their entire families and the community. So Darrel Rowledge what would meaningful government action on chronic wasting disease look like to you?

DARREL ROWLEDGE: So we've recently written to the prime minister outlining exactly that. And what we've done is that we've asked for two things. First of all we need an emergency summit to bring together all of the great scientists that are very concerned about this. We need to be able to understand that it's unacceptable that we have somewhere between seven and fifteen thousand infected animals being consumed by hunter families across North America every year. So the first thing in epidemiology is to contain the spread and we're not doing that. So we need to implement - for hunters - convenient, rapid, cost free testing but we also have to stop the movement of these carcasses from infected areas into areas that are disease free. Because once this gets established there indefinitely and we need a science and evidence based approach. December 31st Canada is actually suggesting that we're going to move to a voluntary protocol. I mean it's preposterous. It flies in the face of science and advice to professional ethics. So we have to come together to try to figure out how to work together.

AMT: Okay well that sounds like we need to ask some questions now of elected officials. We have to leave it there. Thank you for voicing your concerns today. Thank you for speaking to me.

DARREL ROWLEDGE: Thank you very much.

JERRY POTTS: Thank you.

AMT: That's Jerry Potts traditional elder with the Piikani Nation. We reached him at his home at the Piikani Reserve in southern Alberta and Darrel Rowledge is the director of the Alliance for Public wildlife. He's in our Calgary studio. The Alberta government's Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry did send us a statement saying it does have a strong monitoring program in place, which has detected cases in the past and that biosecurity programs have been key in reducing the risk of the disease entering Alberta farms. The Saskatchewan Ministry of the environment sent a statement outlining its efforts which include free head testing of hunted gain for the hunters, and a two hundred seventy five thousand dollar fund for surveillance and the hiring of a wildlife health specialist in the New Year who will focus on trying to manage this disease. Well now we have a word from the team behind The Current this week. So.

INES COLABRESE: Hi. I'm Ines Colabrese one of the producers here at The Current. This week the show was produced by: Idella Sturino, Howard Goldenthal, Pacinthe Mattar, Donya Ziaee, Willow Smith, Lara O'Brien, Samira Mohyeddin, Susana Ferreira, Julian Uzielli, Kristin Nelson, Karin Marley, and John Chipman. Thanks to our network producers: Anne Penman in Vancouver, Michael O'Halloran in Calgary, Suzanne Dufresne in Winnipeg, Susan McKenzie in Montreal, and Mary-Catherine McIntosh in Halifax. And thanks to Keith Hart at CBC's libraries and archives. The Current's writer is Peter Mitton. Our web producer is Lisa Ayuso. Our digital producer is Padraig Moran. Ruby Buiza is our interactive producer. Transcriptions are provided by Rasha Shehata and Luke Williams. Our technical producer is Gary Francis. Our presentation producer is Josh Bloch. And our documentary editor is Liz Hoath. Our senior producers are Richard Goddard in Toronto and Cathy Simon in Vancouver. The executive producer of The Current is Kathleen Goldhar.

AMT: That's our program for today. Stay with Radio 1 for Q. Tom Power speaks to actor Doug Jones about performing in the new critically acclaimed movie The Shape of Water. Now if you have a fear of flying after our discussion today about germy airplanes, we're going to leave you with a tip that could help. This is from a news video from the folks at wochit.com. And they advise cranking up the air vent above your seat - you might want to wipe it off first okay. I want to wish you Happy Holidays. Megan Williams will be here tomorrow. Catherine Collen will be here for me next week.

I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

It turns out that air flow can create a barrier around you to ward off germs during your flight. How does it work? The airflow from the vent creates a wall of turbulent air in front of view that not only blocks germ particles from reaching you but also forces the particles to the ground more quickly. There are fewer germs to breathe in. So next time you fly take a blanker to combat the chill and make sure your air vent is wide open.

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Dec. 21, 2017 episode transcript

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