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The Current Transcript for December 22, 2016

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

You are safe in Chicago, you are secure in Chicago, and you are supported in Chicago. It always will be a sanctuary city.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Chicago's mayor is signaling that city workers, including police, will not be cooperating with the incoming Trump administration on the identification or arrest of undocumented immigrants. Donald Trump has vowed to deport up to three million illegal immigrants with criminal records when he enters the Oval Office. Chicago is among an estimated 300 jurisdictions being told that they will lose billions in federal funding if they don't comply. It's a fight that will pit the Republican Trump administration against the last holdouts of blue or democratic America. We're on that story in half an hour. Also today, déja vu.

SOUNDCLIP

So many memories of what I saw for millions in Rwanda. That is being repeated in Syria and yet we still haven't built this sense of urgency to it.

AMT: Retired Lt.-Gen. Romeo Dallaire is not alone when he connects the inaction of the world over Rwanda to Syria. Today we'll hear from a woman who survived the Rwandan genocide and a man who escaped the massacre at Srebrenica in Bosnia. They look at Syria and ask how the UN and its member states can do nothing again. Hear them in an hour. But we'll start with another story about Syrians. This one begins in the kitchen.

SOUNDCLIP

[Arabic language]

[Through translator] I love cooking. You cook every day in Syria, there's no escaping it. I have a brother in Germany and he told me that they love Syrian food there. I had a feeling they would love it here too.

AMT: The story of a new life in a new country, with a successful new business. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

New life, new business: Syrian refugees bring taste of home to Canada

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Dalal Al Zoubi, Manahel Al Shareef and Rawa'a Aloliwi are three women out of the thousands whose arduous journey escaping the Syrian civil war ended here in Canada. But when they first met each other at a Toronto hotel, where their families were being housed, it turned out to be the beginning of a new adventure, as cooks, entrepreneurs and business partners. Karam Kitchen is the name of their new catering company. They opened it in Hamilton, Ontario with Brittani Farrington. And Karam Kitchen isn't just serving up some delicious Syrian food to the people of Steeltown — it is empowering these women. Lara O'Brien brings us their story in a documentary, this is called A Taste of Home.

[Sound: cooking sounds]

DALAL AL ZOUBI: We put in the blender tahini, some lemon, some yoghurt, some garlic and some salt, mix. Psh.

LARA O’BRIEN: In a large community kitchen in Hamilton, Ontario, Dalal walks me through her hummus recipe. She's one of four women behind Karam Kitchen. It's Hamilton's newest catering company — and it's all about Syrian food.

DALAL AL ZOUBI: This, I don't like this. [laughs]

LARA O’BRIEN: [laughs]

DALAL AL ZOUBI: I don't know.

LARA O'BRIEN: You don't like hummus?

DALAL AL ZOUBI: [chuckles] I don’t like. [chuckles]

LARA O'BRIEN: So not every Syrian loves hummus, but plenty of Hamiltonians are interested in the Middle Eastern staple.

DALAL AL ZOUBI: Rice, meat, chicken.

LARA O'BRIEN: The perfume of garlic is heavy in the air and Dalal is eager to walk me through some of their traditional recipes.

DALAL AL ZOUBI: [Arabic language]

LARA O'BRIEN: Plump eggplant, smoke on the grill, their skin splitting with the heat.

DALAL AL ZOUBI: Zucchini, zucchini.

LARA O'BRIEN: The Cuisinart runs continuously, breaking down the dense chickpeas for hummus. Fragrant bowls of tabbouleh are liberally doused with lemon and olive oil and practiced hands shape dozens of kabobs.

DALAL AL ZOUBI: Rice and meat. I like meat. [laughs]

LARA O'BRIEN: The women move through the kitchen with purpose and laughter. The three women arrived with their families in Canada at the beginning of the year. They are government sponsored Syrian refugees. The families were initially housed in a hotel in Toronto before settling in Hamilton last February. And that's where they met Brittani Farrington, another transplant to the city.

BRITTANI FARRINGTON: I have been living in Hamilton with my husband just over a year. We're from the states originally and we moved to Canada for him to do his Ph.D. at University of Toronto and we’ve loved it here.

LARA O'BRIEN: They all met when Brittani responded to a Facebook post asking for help driving a group of Syrian refugees from Toronto to Hamilton. They all quickly became friends.

BRITTANI FARRINGTON: My church actually said hey, we should throw your Syrian friends a big welcome dinner. So I said OK let me see if that's something they’re interested in. And when I asked Dalal she said yes but we want to cook. And I was like no one is throwing you a party, like, we’ll cook for you, she’s like no, we will cook. So I went back to the church I’m like so here’s the thing, and they’re like OK, we’ll buy all the ingredients and they can cook. So some of the women from the church came and they showed us how to cook with them and we had this big feast. And then when they saw how much everyone was just loving the food, because it's amazing, these three, Dalal, Manahel and Rawa’a came up to me and said how do we sell the food in Canada? And I said I don't know but I will find out. And that long rabbit hole led us to here.

LARA O'BRIEN: It led them to the idea for Karam Kitchen, a catering company serving authentic Syrian cuisine run by Syrian refugees. Karam — meaning generosity in Arabic — was created with the help of Kickstarter. Their doors opened in August and they're already turning a profit.

BRITTANI FARRINGTON: The women have been paid from day one, that was the most important thing to me. I was like we can't start this business and expect them to just contribute with, like, because, you know, they're still on their government stipends for this first year, which they need, they need extra income. So that the women are making money, the business we are fully stocked, we are able to purchase all of our equipment through the Kickstarter. We're really lucky that, like, the businesses is, we’re in the positive right now, which is pretty huge.

LARA O'BRIEN: A regular paycheck is especially huge as the women approach the one year anniversary of their arrival. That's when the government stipend for refugees ends. Even more so for Manahel, who is supporting seven children and a husband who was injured in the war. I ask her about her job.

MANAHEL AL SHAREEF: [Arabic language] [through translator] I love it. I never expected I would be doing this. I love cooking. I cooked every day for my kids and my uncle. You cook every day in Syria, there's no escaping it. I have a brother in Germany and he told me that they love Syrian food there. I had a feeling they would love it here too.

LARA O'BRIEN: It's hard to believe that less than a year ago her family was in a crowded refugee camp in Jordan. They had to leave Syria to save her husband's life.

MANAHEL AL SHAREEF: [Arabic language] [through translator] It was the second day of Eid, three years ago. My husband went to check on his mother and there was an airstrike. He hid behind a house to wait it out, but the building was hit and he was buried under the rubble for hours.

[Sound: voices of panic and screaming]

LARA O'BRIEN: The rescue was captured on video. Half a dozen men used their hands to remove rubble piece by piece in order to free Faisal.

[Sound: Arabic speaking language, rubble being moved]

MANAHEL AL SHAREEF: [Arabic speaking language] [through translator] He was screaming for help and finally they got him out. He was taken to the hospital but they didn't have what they needed to be able to treat him there. So eventually we went to Jordan to get treatment. We ended up in the Zaatari refugee camp. We only stayed there for 17 days. We had to move out to get the help for my husband. My husband had three different operations and he finally started to walk again just last year. The UN called and offered us to go to the US but we didn't want to go there. Then they called and talked to us about Canada. Eventually we decided to go. When we got to Canada, he continued his treatment and he's much better now. He can finally walk.

LARA O'BRIEN: The transition hasn't been easy. Faisel is still recovering and hasn't found work but Manahel says things are slowly getting easier.

MANAHEL AL SHAREEF: [Arabic speaking language] [through translator] At first I didn't want to be here at all, but the people are good and everyone is welcoming and it's better than Jordan. Brittani was the first person who visited us. For the first six days when we got to Hamilton, our house didn't have any heat and it was winter. Brittani came with a space heater and there wasn't a day that Brittany didn't come to check on us.

[Sound: sounds of making coffee]

LARA O'BRIEN: I head to Dalal’s house for coffee. She and her family have settled into a small near home in the east end of the city.

[Sound: coffee pouring into a cup]

LARA O'BRIEN: Coffee's prepared and homemade cookies are set out. Dalal’s husband Adnan arrives with kids in tow. Her daughter Manal and son Ali burst into the living room, excited to tell us about their new school.

ALI: Science, math, English.

DALAL AL ZOUBI: French.

ALI: French, Gym. But I like French more than gym.

LARA O'BRIEN: How do you like Hamilton?

ALI: There is more people respect you. You say hi and they say hi. That’s why I have three friend. Brendan and second one his name’s Alex, third one his name’s Joe.

LARA O'BRIEN: And what do you play?

ALI: Tag, soccer, monkey bars.

MANAL: Yeah, I learning math, I love math. Math in Syria is so hard.

LARA O'BRIEN: Is it easier here?

MANAL: No, it’s good. I happy because I want to grow up and I want a doctor.

LARA O'BRIEN: You want to be a doctor?

MANAL: Yeah.

LARA O'BRIEN: Manal and Ali settle onto the floor by the TV. And I ask Dalal how she feels about her new city.

MANAHEL AL SHAREEF: Oh, Hamilton is good. [laughs] The people good, good people in Hamilton. My children rest here, no fear, no war, no terrible voice, terrible sound.

LARA O'BRIEN: Those terrible sounds of war, the gun fire, the rockets, made for many restless nights. She feared they would not live to see the next morning. And she has those same fears for her family still living there.

MANAHEL AL SHAREEF: My brother and his wife and his family in Syria. I sad for them. [sighs] In Syria everybody sleep every night, they expect no day.

LARA O'BRIEN: Before the war, life in Daraa was comfortable. Dalal was a teacher, her husband ran his own business and their children went to school. But then the war came to their city.

MANAHEL AL SHAREEF: Everything in Syria before we came Canada, no good. Everything was fire, everything was bomb. [sighs] Very very bad. I don't can describe my feeling. It is difficult, yes. After two years, after war starts to Jordan. Life in Jordan is difficult because Jordan, no money. All men don't work. When we arrive Jordan, [sighs] we don't put my children in the school. In Jordan water little, this is desert. When Canada call me, call us, immigration, OK. [laughs] My husband very happy.

ADNAN: [laughs]

LARA O'BRIEN: In Hamilton, Dalal and Manahal are now the breadwinners, a reversal of roles from back home in Syria. And it's an issue that can be hard for men who are used to working, like, Dalal’s husband Adnan, who used to own his own supermarket in Daraa.

ADNAN: I looking for a job. I like work, I don't need stay in home. I want work. Work is life. In Syria, I have supermarket. Now, I want work cleaning in market. [laughs]

[Sound: chopping on cutting board]

LARA O'BRIEN: Back at Karam Kitchen, orders are being filled for new clients. The women are working full time now for the holiday season, including catering the Hamilton Art Gallery’s holiday party. Brittani’s already thinking a few steps ahead.

BRITTANI FARRINGTON: One thing we would really like to see is a more permanent space so that we have options to grow. We can keep doing catering but we could also do pop up dinners. Once a week you can come pick up your dinner and we can slowly grow. And that way too then we can start, when the business picks up more, we can hire more women and I would also like to see us as a launching point, where if you would you like to be a chef and stay here that's great, but also I know this is no one's dream scenario. You know, having to leave home and coming here was no one's first choice. So I would like Karam Kitchen to be to the women what they want it to be, either their long term career or a launching off point.

[Sound: water tap and splash]

LARA O'BRIEN: The food is packed up for delivery and the dishes are done. Tomorrow they'll all be back here cooking up falafel, kibbeh, hummus and tabbouleh. Manahel and Dalal are tired but feel lucky to be working, cooking the food they love.

MANAHEL AL SHAREEF: [Arabic speaking language] [through translator] I want my kids to get educated and to do well. I want my husband to get treated and to be healthy. That's what will make me happy. I don't need anything for myself.

DALAL AL ZOUBI: When we work in the Karam Kitchen, it is help us for speaking language, yes. I help my husband, Manahel my friend, Rawa’a my friend, Brittani my friend. It is comfortable work. For me it is good, it is good for me. I feel happy thing. I work in Canada.

AMT: Well, a lot of hope in that documentary. We've been listening to A Taste of Home. It was produced by Lara O'Brien. Special thanks to Pacinthe Matar for translation and voice work and The Current’s documentary editor is Josh Bloch. If you'd like a Karam Kitchen recipe, you can go to our website for that cbc.ca/thecurrent.Well, even as we can celebrate the success of the women at Karam Kitchen, many other recently arrived Syrian refugees are struggling to find their footing in Canada's job market. Barbara Dixon is President of Diversity ERAA, a consulting practice that specializes in immigrant and refugee integration. She joins us from our Winnipeg studio. Hello.

BARBARA DIXON: Good morning Anna Maria.

AMT: Well, the two women from the Karam Kitchen in the documentary you just heard have become the main breadwinners for their families. How typical is it for refugee women to find work before their husbands do?

BARBARA DIXON: I think it's fairly typical and you'll see that with various streams of refugees that have come. Women are able to go into the workforce, they often develop entrepreneurship skills and start their own businesses. They're willing to take lower paid jobs, whereas the men are still usually hang on to wanting to be in the profession that they were in initially. Women tend to be a little bit more flexible at the beginning.

AMT: And what's the impact of that role reversal on those families?

BARBARA DIXON: As you heard in the documentary, that role reversal creates financial independence for the women, which may be quite different and may affect the males in the family, both positively and negatively, depending on the family. But the men can become isolated. They gather with other men in the same situation and it affects their integration into the workforce and into the community. Some become sad, some become depressed, some become lonely and isolated. That can have effects on the family also, in terms of increases in domestic violence, depression. That's the type of things that happen.

AMT: Mm. And we know that many come with education and skills. We heard Dalal Al Zoubi’s husband Adnan say that he used to own a supermarket in Syria, now he's looking for a job cleaning supermarkets. What can be done to make it easier or smoother for the process to have their credentials and their experience recognized?

BARBARA DIXON: That's a huge issue for all newcomers to come to Canada is having their foreign credentials recognized. In the case of refugees, it becomes much more difficult because refugees flee their home — sometimes very quickly — and they don't think about or have time to collect their university documents or college documents or trade papers. They just leave. When they come here, they don't have those papers. I think what we have to look at is the different credentialing agencies have to move to a practice based assessment. So having people demonstrate their skills versus rely on educational qualifications. I think we need to set up more programs where we have gap training, so we identify what are the gaps. And have short term workshops to fill in those gaps and then have internship programs, job shadowing programs. Some of that's being done across the country, but I think we could be doing a lot more.

AMT: Well, what kind of advice do you give employers who might want to hire someone who is a refugee, they'd like to be able to be part of that?

BARBARA DIXON: The main thing is to prepare their own workforce and have cultural competency training and then to provide ongoing support to the newcomer. The newcomers, once they're hired, the issues become one of retention. And everyone wants to get a job and do well in that job and possibly move up in that career. Canadian workplace culture and soft skills are something that newcomers are missing. They have the soft skills from their own country but that may not be transferable to Canada.

AMT: Soft skills meaning what?

BARBARA DIXON: Oh, things like how do you deal with figures of authority? How do you deal with time? The role of supervisors. How do you communicate effectively?

AMT: Even just the office banter, that kind of thing.

BARBARA DIXON: Right.

AMT: Yeah, OK.

BARBARA DIXON: What do you talk about, what do you not talk about. Who do you socialize with.

AMT: And we saw the woman of Karam Kitchen starting their own business. You said that other women become entrepreneurs. How common is it?

BARBARA DIXON: I think it's fairly common, if there's programming available through settlement services, often women will get ideas on different types of businesses that they can start and they're willing to take that risk. Some get funding, some don't get funding.

AMT: These women went to Indiegogo. Interesting.

BARBARA DIXON: Mmhmm.

AMT: Mmhmm.

BARBARA DIXON: And I don't think they would have gone there unless they had somebody helping them. And that's very important, particularly for the government sponsored refugees, they do not have the same supports as the private sponsored. So having mentors in the community, having a buddy system, a mentor in the workplace, extremely important.

AMT: So that was the role of Brittani Farrington right?

BARBARA DIXON: That’s right.

AMT: Yeah, interestingly enough she's new to Canada as well. But she saw an opportunity there.

BARBARA DIXON: Yeah.

AMT: So there's a lot to learn from what they're doing.

BARBARA DIXON: That's right, there is.

AMT: OK, well, thank you Barbara Dixon.

BARBARA DIXON: Thank you.

AMT: Barbara Dixon, President of Diversity ERAA. She joined us from our Winnipeg studio. Let us know what you think, as you heard the women talking about starting their new business and how they're navigating life in Canada. You can tweet us we are @TheCurrentCBC, find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and you can click on the contact link. Also remember, if you're joining us part way through and you want to go back and listen, you can always download the app from Google Play or the App Store. The free CBC Radio app, in order to take us along and listen when you have more time. And stay with us right now if you can. The CBC News is next. And then we're talking about sanctuary cities that are under attack. US President-elect Donald Trump has set up a showdown with dozens of American cities that are refusing to comply with federal laws against undocumented immigrants. A lot of those cities have vowed they won't back down. We'll talk to a mayor of one of those cities. We'll talk to the other side as well. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, this is The Current.

[Music: Extro]

Santa Fe mayor defies Trump's crackdown on immigrant 'sanctuary cities'

Guests: Javier Gonzales, Hans A. von Spakovsky, Christopher Lasch

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come. After Rwanda, Bosnia, the Holocaust, the world vowed never to let such atrocities happen again — yet the killing in Syria continues. In half an hour, two survivors of Srebrenica and Rwanda share their perspectives on the failure to respond again. But first, sanctuary cities rise up.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: We will end the sanctuary cities that have resulted in so many needless deaths. Cities that refuse to cooperate with federal authorities will not receive taxpayer dollars. And we will work with Congress to pass legislation to protect those jurisdictions that do assist federal authorities.

[Sound: crowd cheering]

AMT: Well, that campaign promise from Donald Trump has struck fear in the hearts of many undocumented immigrants and set up a showdown between the incoming administration and America's so-called sanctuary cities. There is no single definition of what it means to be a sanctuary city. But the list includes Los Angeles, Washington DC, San Francisco, as well as local jurisdictions that shelter undocumented immigrants to varying degrees. In general, city workers often including local police do not help the federal government fully enforce immigration laws, particularly when it comes to helping find and deport immigrants who lack the proper paperwork. Depending on your definition, there are dozens even hundreds of sanctuary cities and other jurisdictions in the US, even four states. The US President-Elect Donald Trump has vowed to cut off federal funding to them in his first 100 days. Chicago and New York are among the cities that have sought to ease the fears of their undocumented residents since the election and at least three dozen cities have since formally reaffirmed their sanctuary city status, including the city of Santa Fe, New Mexico. Javier Gonzales is the mayor of Santa Fe and a former chair of the Democratic Party of New Mexico. And we have reached him in Santa Fe. Hello.

JAVIER GONZALES: Good morning Anna Maria. How are you?

AMT: I'm well and I'm curious to know what you’re thinking on all of this. After Mr. Trump's election, you joined several mayors across the US to say that Santa Fe would remain a sanctuary city. Why did you do that, why is that important?

JAVIER GONZALES: Well, anytime a mayor can stand up and speak for the values that make their communities strong and communities that are welcoming, you have to do so. Especially in light of policy that would disrupt many families, would affect children in schools and people who are contributing to Santa Fe. And so one, I wanted to make sure that we stood up and stood against any policy that would be harmful. And two, it really comes down to prioritization of local law enforcement resources. Our job every day is to use local law enforcement to protect our communities from anybody that is looking at doing harm to any one of our residents. And having to take on an additional function for the federal government that's not paid and certainly is not part of what our priority is, in terms of checking these statuses is something that we're going to resist.

AMT: Do you know how many undocumented people live in Santa Fe?

JAVIER GONZALES: We don't because we don't keep status, but we do know that about 14 per cent of our population is made up of new immigrants.

AMT: And practically speaking, what does it mean to be a sanctuary city then?

JAVIER GONZALES: Well, for Santa Fe, it means that our police officers, they don't ask for status. If you're stopped for a minor traffic violation, all you really are asked for is your driver's license. And so long as within the crime database nothing comes back that shows that there is a warrant out for your arrest due to a federal felony or a violent crime, then they cite you and you go on your way. If there is a criminal warrant out because of a violent crime, then of course we take the individual into custody and we work with ICE and the rest of the process is fulfilled.

AMT: Remind us what ICE stands for.

JAVIER GONZALES: ICE, it's the INS, the Immigration National Service.

AMT: OK.

JAVIER GONZALES: The organization that actually deals with dealing with the immigration services in the United States.

AMT: So Donald Trump has said he wants to deport undocumented immigrants with a criminal record. If your police stopped someone for something and they find, you`re saying if there's a warrant out for their arrest, what if there is something that says they want them detained by the immigration department? What would your police do?

JAVIER GONZALES: Well, first of all, we won't participate in any effort to again, disrupt the lives of any families by asking for status if they're living here peacefully and even with a minor violation of a traffic violation, we're not going to participate in that. And the reason being is that have to do everything we can, as cities across America, to make sure that not only the value, the humanitarian value, of respecting people's lives who are contributing and living peacefully, that we stand up for it. But also that we recognize that many of these individuals are integral to the productivity of our communities. Many immigrants play an important role in our labour force. They provide critical services. And if we begin the process of plain deportation agents, it’s going to have a devastating economic impact on many small businesses here in the city. I can tell you that as a result of much of the rhetoric and the fear of when the president-elect takes office, that he will follow through on some of the campaign rhetoric that he's had on sanctuary cities, that there are many families now that worry about their children in school, whether they'll be home when they return from work, you know, whether kids will be forced to have to leave when they've been in this country, you know, almost all their life. And it's that kind of fear that is quite honestly very sad to experience in a town. And by being able to stand up to the administration's efforts to bully and to threaten cities who have sanctuary status is important so that they know we're going to stand by them.

AMT: Mr. Trump has threatened to cut federal funding to all jurisdictions who do stand up against this in his first 100 days. What would that mean to your city?

JAVIER GONZALES: Specifically, it would mean 6.2 million dollars. Those are monies that go into helping us provide homeownership, first time homebuyers. It supports warm mills for many of our senior citizens and most vulnerable, it provides critical access to infrastructure funds, our federal airport. There's no doubt that there would be a impact. But there comes a point where the values of a town are far greater and important to fight for than any loss of federal funds that might come as a result of us standing up to policy that is divisive and certainly that is many times driven by hatred.

AMT: Donald Trump in that clip we just heard said that sanctuary cities have resulted in needless deaths. What do you make of that argument?

JAVIER GONZALES: Well, it's an unfortunate statement because it's not true. There have been study after study that have shown that there has not been a rise in crime due to the presence of immigrants. But I could tell you right here in Santa Fe, since 1999 we've seen the immigrant participation at much higher levels with law enforcement when it comes to going after people that in our community that are doing harm. Immigrants living in our communities want to live peacefully. They don't want crime that will impact their families or any other families. And so we've been able to pull them out of the shadows to build relationships through community policing and that's helped us make sure we go after whoever's in our communities trying to do harm. So you can look at studies that have been done, and you can just look at the reason why so many mayors across the country are standing up and saying, you know, this is the wrong policy to penalize us for, because we're seeing firsthand, along with our chiefs of police, that it's better to have a working relationship with the immigrant community than for them to go back into the shadows and us not have any real opportunity to identify or do any type of threat assessments.

AMT: OK. Well, Mayor Gonzales, thank you for your thoughts on this.

JAVIER GONZALES: Thank you Anna Maria, have a great day.

AMT: You too. Javier Gonzales, Mayor of Santa Fe, New Mexico. And that is where we reached him today. Now, my next guest believes President-elect Donald Trump is right to single out sanctuary cities and to deprive them of federal funding. Hans A.von Spakovsky is a senior legal fellow with the Heritage Foundation. That's a conservative think tank that has been influential in shaping Donald Trump's decisions since the election. And Mr. von Spakovsky joins us from Washington DC. Hello.

HANS A. VON SPAKOVSKY: Anna Maria, how are you doing this morning?

AMT: Well, I'm curious to know what you're thinking. You just heard the case for sanctuary cities, what concerns do you have about them?

HANS A. VON SPAKOVSKY: Well, I would say two things about what Mayor Gonzales said. From a policy standpoint he's showing an utter contempt for the rule of law and that is the enforcement of federal immigration law, and the rule of law is something that this country is based on. But second, his claims that these sanctuary policies do not lead to crime is completely false. And I'll give you an example of what I mean. One study based on Department of Homeland Security records showed that in just an eight month period in 2014, more than 8,000 deportable aliens were released by sanctuary jurisdictions, 3,000 of them were felons. 62 per cent had a prior criminal record. Those deportable aliens were later arrested a total of 4,300 times on 7,500 different offenses. So sanctuary policies basically create sanctuaries for criminals. And there are four individuals in San Francisco that we can talk about directly who are dead because of directly, San Francisco sanctuary policies. Kate Steinle was killed last year by an illegal alien, a prior felon, who the Department of Homeland Security had a detainer warrant, they wanted him so they could deport him. San Francisco instead released him into the community, where he tragically murdered this young 32-year-old woman. And that's not the first time that’s happened in San Francisco. In 2008, a father and his two teenage sons were killed by a member of the MS-13 gang who had committed two prior felonies in San Francisco.

AMT: OK.

HANS A. VON SPAKOVSKY: He was released back because of the sanctuary laws.

AMT: Well, I'm not going to have you run through every case for me. Statistically, doesn't it show that American citizens actually still kill more people than any undocumented immigrant?

HANS A. VON SPAKOVSKY: The point is that these felons and the crimes they committed, those crimes would not be committed if they were not in the country. So the frequency or rate doesn't, that is not important, the point is that there are literally thousands of criminal aliens with long criminal histories who are going to continue to murder, assault, rape, commit property crimes, none of those crimes would be happening if they were not in the country.

AMT: Mr. von Spakovsky, what about the argument that, you're saying they're in violation of the rule of law, they argue that it's not their job to do the federal government's job. What do you say to that?

HANS A. VON SPAKOVSKY: I say that in fact they are violating federal immigration law. Yes, they don't have to assist in the arrest or detention of individuals who are in the country illegally. However, federal immigration law specifically prohibits any city or local jurisdictions from banning local law enforcement or other local officials from exchanging citizenship status information with the federal government. So in fact, they are violating federal law.

AMT: Do you agree with Mr. Trump's view that federal funding should be cut to these cities or counties or other jurisdictions then?

HANS A. VON SPAKOVSKY: Oh yeah, I think it should. Specifically, the Department of Justice has all kinds of grants that it gives out to try to assist local law enforcement. Well, when these cities are obstructing law enforcement, why in the world should they be receiving federal funds?

AMT: Do you worry that if you take federal money away from local law enforcement you will in fact hurt local police on a whole other level?

HANS A. VON SPAKOVSKY: No, I think that pretty soon individuals and residents of those cities who are being victimized by these policies are going to be clamouring about this. Frankly, the other thing that ought to be done is state legislatures in states who are willing to do this need to lift any sovereign immunity that these cities have so that the families of victims, like the family of Kate Steinle in San Francisco, can sue those cities be it when the sanctuary policies are directly responsible for the death of their loved one.

AMT: But San Francisco is in a state that has actually declared itself a sanctuary as well.

HANS A. VON SPAKOVSKY: That's true. But there are cities in many other places such as Texas where the legislature could make that move. And if suddenly these cities faced liability lawsuits from families whose family members have been killed or injured, they would quickly change the policies.

AMT: There's also an argument that as a Republican Congress that believes in small government won't like the idea of more big government imposing itself on all of these other jurisdictions. What do you say to that?

HANS A. VON SPAKOVSKY: 100 per cent of the authority for immigration matters is given to the federal government by the US Constitution. Simply asking cities to not obstruct law enforcement, because that's what they're doing, is not an imposition on local cities. It's not any different than what Mayor Gonzales was saying. When they arrest someone they check with our National Crime Information System to see if there's an outstanding warrant on them. Why is it any different to be checking with DHS to see if there's outstanding immigration warrant on them? There's not any extra effort or problems with doing that.

AMT: OK, well, thank you for your view this morning.

HANS A. VON SPAKOVSKY: Thank you. Bye bye.

AMT: That is Hans A. von Spakovsky, senior legal fellow with the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank. He's in Washington DC. Well, in Canada Toronto City Council passed a motion in 2014 to give Toronto's estimated 200,000 non status residents access to city services regardless of immigration status. Making it a form of a sanctuary city as well. Hamilton, Ontario joined the list, Vancouver also adopted a policy of not asking for documentation for access to city services. But in the US, a doubling of deportations between 2003 and 2012 heated up the conversation around undocumented immigrants. For more context into the history and politics of sanctuary cities, I'm joined by Christopher Lasch, he's an Associate Professor of Law at the University of Denver. And he joins us from Denver, Colorado. Hello.

CHRISTOPHER LASCH: Good morning. How are you Ms. Tremonti, thank you for having me.

AMT: Well, I'm really interested to know what you're thinking as you listen to both sides. Is there a big legal fight shaping up here between these cities and the federal government?

CHRISTOPHER LASCH: Well, there may be a legal fight depending on of course what the incoming administration does. I think you asked some good questions to Mr. Spakovsky who framed this as a rule of law debate. In fact, one of the main reasons that sanctuary cities have proliferated so dramatically in the last few years is precisely because of legal problems associated with the federal government's push to involve local law enforcement. There have been a number of judicial decisions that have characterized what the federal government has been trying to do is beyond the bounds of the Constitution and our federal laws. So it's much more complicated legal question than Mr. Spakovsky would have us believe.

AMT: We also heard the mayor talk about crime in one way and we heard Mr. Spakovsky use other statistics. What have you been looking at? What can you tell us about the crime statistics that get thrown out?

CHRISTOPHER LASCH: Well, the debate between Mr. Spakovsky and Mayor Gonzales really highlights how this issue has been framed. Mr. Spakovsky really channels what the Trump administration or what President-elect Trump did during his candidacy, which is he goes straight to to, you know, unfortunate specific cases. He goes straight to the Kate Steinle case for example, which is a case that I've written extensively about and particularly with respect to how Mr. Trump used that case during his campaign. You know, of course everybody is regrets and is sorrowful for whenever anybody is killed. But Ms. Steinle’s death, you know, there's a number of different ways that that story could have been framed. It could have been framed as a story about homelessness, about a story about gun control or just a tragic accident. To say that she was killed because of San Francisco's sanctuary policy is just inflammatory rhetoric, which as Mayor Gonzales points out just doesn't have any real place in crafting sensible local policy.

AMT: Well, and Mr. Trump talks about illegal undocumented immigrants with criminal records. What kind of records are we talking about?

CHRISTOPHER LASCH: Right. Well, and to understand this, it's important to look at sort of how immigration policy and enforcement has changed. And over the last three decades there's been a real sea change in how immigration enforcement was undertaken. The change sort of correlates to a reframing of the issue. If we had been having this discussion three decades ago, we would have been talking about what effect does immigration have on American jobs? What effect does it have on American wages? But today due to a successful rhetorical reframing over the past three decades, we're just only talking about public safety. The immigrant as criminal narrative that has risen in this country over the last three decades has really reshaped the debate entirely. So, mmhmm, go ahead.

AMT: But just statistically then, it like, do the statistics not show that actually American citizens kill more people than undocumented?

CHRISTOPHER LASCH: Yes, yes, absolutely. The heavy weight of scholarly literature completely affirms your point. And when you asked Mr. Spakovsky that question he went straight to the Kate Steinle narrative. That's the rhetorical response there.

AMT: OK. But let me just add something else. Barack Obama has deported something like two and a half million people, has he not?

CHRISTOPHER LASCH: Yeah. So--

AMT: [interposing] So what's the difference?

CHRISTOPHER LASCH: Mmhmm. Along with this reframing over the last three decades, you know, if you characterize immigration as a public safety problem then the natural move is to say well we should involve local police in immigration enforcement. And that's exactly what the Obama administration did on an unprecedented level. The Secure Communities program, [clears throat] excuse me I'm sorry. The Secure Communities program was a program that essentially harnessed state and local criminal justice systems as the front end for the federal enforcement mechanism. And it was that program that allowed the Obama administration to deport a record 2.5 million people, which is in fact more deportations than had occurred in the entirety of American history up to that point. So yeah, the Obama administration, and this has been the rhetorical shift that I've been talking about, from talking about immigration as an economic issue to talking about it as a public safety issue. That's been a rhetoric that's been embraced unfortunately by Democrats and Republicans alike. So that's the framing that we come to this conversation this morning with that sort of in place.

AMT: And we're almost out of time, but the idea that these jurisdictions can lose federal funding.

CHRISTOPHER LASCH: Right.

AMT: We just heard one mayor who sounds like he'll go to the wall on that. How realistic is it for cities like New York, Chicago, Chicago gets billions in federal funding, can they push this, can they fight this?

CHRISTOPHER LASCH: Yes, absolutely. So in the first place, you know, as we started off with, this is not a rule of law question. The federal government is in charge of immigration enforcement and the states and localities largely have nothing to do with it. And to suggest that these sanctuary policies somehow flout federal law is really an incredible gloss over the applicable law. The Secure Communities program that we were just talking about for example, one of the reasons why the number of sanctuary jurisdictions went from a couple of dozen in 2008 to over 500 today is because of specific legal problems associated with that. In fact, it was illegal what the federal government was asking states and localities to do and they understandably resisted.

AMT: Christopher Lasch, we have to leave it there. We're out of time. But we appreciate your perspective. Thank you.

CHRISTOPHER LASCH: Thank you very much.

AMT: Christopher Lasch, Law Professor at the University of Denver. He studied sanctuary cities. We reached him in Denver, Colorado. Let us know what you think of this fight. You will see more of it as the new year progresses. We are @TheCurrentCBC on Twitter, you can find us on Facebook. Go to the website cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link and let us know what you think. And stay with us. We're talking to survivors of Srebrenica and Rwanda about Syria, this is The Current.

'United Nations didn't do anything': Genocide survivors relate to Aleppo

Guests: Dada Gasirabo, Hasan Hasonovic

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Hello, I'm Anna Maria Tremonti this is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: cars honking, crowd murmur]

AMT: Battle weary and all but broken, rebel fighters and civilian survivors were still filing out of Eastern Aleppo yesterday. Part of a series of evacuations from the Syrian city that have been on and off again this week. On Monday, the UN Security Council voted to send in observers to monitor the situation and the Syrian government did authorize 20 UN staff to enter Aleppo. But to many people the UN's arrival is the very definition of too little too late. The city of Aleppo is a husk of its former self, after years of destruction and carnage. And after so many images of bloody children and bombed out buildings, the big looming question is how the rest of the world has allowed Syria to come to this? Today we're hearing from two survivors of previous atrocities. Dada Gasirabo is the Executive Director of Oasis Centre des Femmes, a woman's centre. She is a survivor of the Rwandan genocide. And she's with me in our studio in Toronto. Hasan Hasanovic works at the Srebrenica Genocide Memorial. He is a survivor of the Srebrenica massacre and he's written a book about that experience. He joins us from Srebrenica in Bosnia, Herzegovina. Hello to you both.

DADA GASIRABO: Hello.

HASAN HASANOVIC: Hello.

AMT: Dada Gasirabo, I want to start with you. What have you been thinking as you have watched the developments out of Aleppo?

DADA GASIRABO: It takes me back to 1994, during the Rwandan genocide. And I always say there we are again, there we are again. We keep saying never again but when I see like this weekend, it shook me quite a lot when I saw the whole caravan of people not knowing even where they are heading to, not knowing even they will be able to get out of the road. It's heartbreaking. You wonder, why?

AMT: Hasan Hasanovic, what were you thinking as you watched Eastern Aleppo under siege and then as the citizens and the rebels tried to leave?

HASAN HASANOVIC: I mean, what's happening now in Aleppo is very similar to my town, which was surrounded for three and a half years. Once I saw people being killed and trying to run and being prevented to leave and so many people being killed and bloodshed on the streets. And actually, that reminded me of my town and of my own suffering. And I was thinking, you know, what went wrong with world that they don't respond and react? And what does it take for the world and for the politicians, you know, to make a proper decision and to save lives of human beings? Maybe there is something wrong with education, or you know, we need to push more in terms of educating people about subsequent genocide and the Holocaust itself. And people themselves, you know, all human beings living in the world should be more engaged of learning of the past and making sure that we put this issue on the agenda of our politicians, that they have to engage to stop the suffering of ordinary people civilians. Every human being should ask a question, you know, what did I do, you know, for the world to stop and what I didn't do. And before we go to sleep, you know, each one of us should ask the simple question did I say anything? Did I post something on social media to respond or did I ask my politician or did he or she do anything? So I mean, we have to be more engaged.

AMT: So you're making the point that it is not solely government leaders in the international community, it's individuals who needed to speak up.

HASAN HASANOVIC:I think that all of us. Now we see that politicians are pretty sleepy and they don't respond and as the citizens of the world we should tell them this is important and this is what we need you to do. And we need to stop the suffering of civilians wherever they live, whoever they are.

AMT: Dada, as the civilian death toll in the Syrian war has grown, what response had you hoped would come from the international community?

DADA GASIRABO: There's a whole lot of an understood politics around the protection. And you wonder who is doing what? Who is responsible for that? I hear Hasan saying that it's a responsibility of all of us. But again, we need to know what is there? Who to talk to and what to really ask. Because I remember in Rwanda, the UN peacekeeping were there way way before genocide because there was a conflict. We even got to really feel hopeful that they will be there. But the moment when the conflict, the genocide erupted, we didn't see them.

AMT: Well, the UN in fact has been severely criticized for its role in the Rwandan genocide. Can you take us back to that time and tell us what you experienced? How old were you?

DADA GASIRABO: I was in my 30s. I had my two kids and we were hoping for the best. You know, when you’re a mother with young kids, you want to see them grow. But one day it all got shattered because we went into a church to hide because that was the safest place people have come to tell us. And one of the things I don't forget yet, we were with a family whose son-in-law was among the UN peacekeepers. The church was surrounded with killers, with machetes, with grenades, with guns and a tank came to a rescue the in laws. They left. After they left then the worst happened and they--

AMT: [interposing] So it rescued the people related to the guy who was the peacekeeper, that was it?

DADA GASIRABO: Yes. And you wonder, now it's a personal issue, it's not a collective issue. We waited and waited, telling ourselves now they're coming back, they're coming back for more. They're coming back. They never came.

AMT: How long were you in that church?

DADA GASIRABO: I was 24 hours.

AMT: How did you get out? What happened?

DADA GASIRABO: So the very morning when they came to rescue that family, like, the whole village, the whole community gathering in a church, thinking that nobody will just come. Then after the UN left, that's when people started seeing that oh, now I see people can’t be rescued before we kill them. So they started killing and we run through every other exit. I left, I remember I left my son there because I couldn't even grab him and run. Each one was running for their life.

AMT: What happened to your son?

DADA GASIRABO: Later on, an NGO picked him and I didn't hide far from the church, hoping that when it came quieter I would go back and meet him or find him if he's still alive. So I waited for nine hours, hiding in a bush watching whoever coming from there. Then eventually at certain time, I saw a lady who just lost her own kids carrying my son. Then I come rushing out of the bush and grabbed my baby from her hands, even though she was the saviour and I ran again.

AMT: How old was your son at this time?

DADA GASIRABO: He was two-years-old.

AMT: And you had another child as well?

DADA GASIRABO: Yeah, but I didn't know where he was. So he wandered with other people and I found him two days later.

AMT: And how old was he?

DADA GASIRABO: He was nine-years-old.

AMT: I can't imagine the terror.

DADA GASIRABO: Yeah.

AMT: You know, we know that the Canadian general then, General Romeo Dallaire, he's retired now, has lived in agony.

DADA GASIRABO: Mmhmm.

AMT: For the fact that he was there in charge of UN soldiers, very small contingent and he was begging the UN to get its member states to send help and nobody would come. After what you have been through, what do you think of the UN today?

DADA GASIRABO: You know, I have not yet come to understand. I have been trying to educate myself to know what is UN, what is UN doing in conflict zone and what is really the impact? And at that time, everybody was hoping for the best. When we saw them we had gone into a good relationship with UN because they were even making it easier to get connected to the RPF, the other army that was fighting to get into the country to free the country. And they were doing that a good job to make the two enemies or the two groups get together and prepare us to get the change. And we thought this was the best way of UN to do things, because when in a country when leaders are in conflict, they are not the same ones that are going to solve that. So when you see a third party coming as UN, you would think they will do something. When the UN, the UN council debated to know whether it's genocide or massacres. It took a few days and during the days people were being killed, throwing in the rivers and lakes and being burned and people from whom we were hoping to get a quick solution didn't. So in three months, almost a million people were killed and UN was there. And after that, we heard sorry and sorry. And there's something to be done and it shouldn't happen anywhere else.

AMT: Hasan Hasonovic, I want to turn to your personal story as well. Can you bring us back to us Srebrenica in 1995?

HASAN HASANOVIC: So I lived in Srebrenica under siege for three and a half years. Similar situation as today’s Aleppo, you know, no food, no water. The town was being bombarded daily, every hour and we didn't have anything. Then eventually the United Nations arrived and Srebrenica was declared as a safe UN haven, of the United Nations by a resolution. And the UN disarmed Muslim Bosnian fighters and the Serbs were left around the siege with weapons. And we were are all hoping in Srebrenica, including myself and my family, that the United Nations will make sure that we are safe until the end of war because we surrendered weapons to the United Nations, you know. So eventually in July 1995, the town was attacked again by the Bosnian Serb army and the United Nations didn't do anything to protect people, they were just abandoning the positions and people ran towards the Dutch United Nations base. The most of the civilians, including my mother and my younger brother, my grandfather and grandmother. And the men and boys like me and my father, my twin brother, who wouldn't, who didn't trust the United Nations anymore, we called this trek the Death March because we couldn't go the UN base. We knew if we went there we would be separated and later killed by the Bosnian Serb army and the UN wouldn't do anything, you know. So that's why we tried to escape through the forest and it took me six days and six nights to reach Sweden. Literally every minute, my life was on the edge between life and death. I was being attacked ambushed every day by the Bosnian Serb soldiers and we were being hunted like animals. And somehow I stumbled and I reached Sweden. Six days later, I actually lost the contact. I even the first day of the Death March, I lost my father and my uncle as the first shooting started and ever since I had never seen them in my life. And once I reached Sweden, I was thinking, you know, what happened to my brother, my twin brother, my father, my uncle? And in 2003, I buried my father, who was excavated from one of the mass graves and identified through the DNA because our families gave blood samples. And the International Commission on Missing Persons identified him. Then my twin brother was identified and buried in 2005. And that was the most difficult day in my life, I had thought, you know, that I would die that day because he was my twin brother. Seeing, you know, fathers carrying their dead children in arms in Aleppo today really breaks my heart.

AMT: How old were you Hassan, when you tried to escape through the forest like that?

HASAN HASANOVIC: I was 19 but I was very unfed and very skinny and I looked like, you know, like 14-year-old boy, you know, even though I was 19. I don't really know how I reached Sweden but I did it. And here I am now telling this story and hoping that, you know, people will learn from our stories. But, you know, it looks like that people, that the politicians they never learn. And in Srebrenica, we had the United Nations which totally failed to protect people and that responsibility to protect doesn't work anymore. And every day I'm asking a question, you know, if the United Nations has changed.

AMT: We know that the UN, with several agencies, peacekeepers, human rights workers and other international organizations were working throughout Bosnia at the time of the Srebrenica massacre. We know that the UN was in very tiny numbers in Rwanda and could not get reinforcements sent in because the member countries wouldn't agree to that in Rwanda. We know that in Syria, everyone pulled out. The UN is not there, the big aid agencies are not there. Now we know, Hasan Hasonovic, the United Nations Security Council voted Monday to send observers to monitor the evacuations in Aleppo. What do you think of the fact that the UN is sending observers at this point?

HASAN HASANOVIC: I don't think that many things will change with observers because they will not have access, you know, to those places, you know, where the atrocities are happening. And so they will be allowed to go where the government, the regime of Assad, will allow them to go. But at least, you know, having them there observing transportation of civilians out of Aleppo is at least something, you know.

AMT: Dada Gasirabo, what do you think?

DADA GASIRABO: I agree totally with Hasan, because when you see observers, they're not going to do anything. It's not a matter of observer. There need actions, actions from really countries that can distance themselves from what is happening and protect people. Because at the end it's the responsibility of the world. Where the big countries? Where are the members that can really come up with resolutions to change things? I see that in Syria, Aleppo especially, that there is really need for actions. And Canada, US or France or which country would be courageous enough to say enough is enough?

AMT: We know of course, the war in Syria rages on even though Aleppo has fallen. And I'm wondering Hasan as well, there were a lot of calls for a tougher military intervention in Bosnia overall that never went anywhere. As you watch this, do you see those parallels again in Syria? We've seen threats to the Syrians, at one point from the United States, that they would intervene if but they never did. Canada does not.

HASAN HASANOVIC: I mean, absolutely. When the war in Bosnia started, almost 70 per cent of our country was occupied by the Bosnian Serb rebels supported by Milosevic regime and they established a para state in Bosnia. And let me remind you that Bosnia used to be at the time, member, full member of the United Nations, and the United Nations themselves were supposed to protect the sovereignty and integrity of our country, according to international law. Instead of doing so, they didn't do anything. You know, they imposed an embargo on importing weapons to Bosnia, which actually only affected Muslims in Bosnia because Serbs has weapons from Serbia, Croats, you know, had some weapons given from Croatia and the hands of the Muslims, Bosniaks in Bosnia, according to this resolution were literally tied and the whole world watched them being killed in thousands as the war went on. Then later, in the siege of Sarajevo and in the other parts of the country, we were expecting the world to intervene and to bomb the Bosnian Serbs and later they did something. It took us, you know, a long time to wait for this sort of a mercy from the world to intervene and to save our lives.

AMT: And so as you look at Syria now and you look at the United Nations and the international community, what do you think has to change? Who wants to answer that first? Dada.

DADA GASIRABO: For me, I would say that the intervention comes with interest. Whoever is interested in something can do something. In this case, the interests of Syrians, of people from Aleppo is nobody's issue. So for me, I think the moment they start getting the best interest of people, I think something has to be done. And let's really really call on to the world to get the interest of these people because they are powerless. They don't have guns. They don't have army. They don't have anything. And they deserve to live. So I would really think UN has to think of the interest of these people because it looks like there are many many many more interests but the interests of the people.

AMT: Hasan, what do you think of that? Because when we talk about the interests of the people, and the United Nations, the Security Council includes Russia, which has different interests than the US. Who’s people get to get the attention?

HASAN HASANOVIC: I mean, unfortunately because of different interests of big powers, those interests actually stand in the way of any international engagement. In Syria, ordinary people are just suffering and they are actually victims of this conflict of interest, you know. And unfortunately I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel, in terms of for these civilians to get serious attention from these big powers. And I don't think that, you know, unfortunately that many things will change in near future for them in pursuit of a peaceful solution for Syria.

AMT: Given what you've been through Hasan, how does that make you feel?

HASAN HASANOVIC: I mean, of course I feel sad. I don't even dare look at the photos and the videos of people suffering. I just sometimes, I just glance at a few of the photos and I really cannot take it anymore because I really take it personally, you know, it brings me back to what I had survived and it's similar to what happened to me. And I really take it very much emotionally and I don't really know if the people who haven't survived similar thing would be able to understand this, they wouldn't even, you know, think about it. And they have a different life, they haven’t experienced a war and they don’t really sometimes care, which is really sad.

AMT: Dada, what do you think after what you've been through, when you see those pictures?

DADA GASIRABO: Now, since I am at a distance from what is happening now, I’m in the best place really to see to imagine what those people are going through. Yes, it's emotional. But yet we are lucky, we are lucky to have this eye, to have this experience, even though we went through hell. But I don't think other people should go through what we went through. And when will the cycle break? Because UN failed in Rwanda, UN failed in Srebrenica, UN failed somewhere else. But UN has also the international community let’s not say just UN, the international community had done some good action somewhere. Can human being be dangerous, can their right, human rights really be taken into care? Because something has to be done.

HASAN HASANOVIC: If I may add. You know, the only way to change something in the world is to educate people about these atrocities. And if every government, like, in Europe we have Holocaust Memorial Day and if every government goes with this educating people about the Holocaust and all the genocides which have happened by now. And if they really engage in schools and universities and really local communities, we could change something. I think this is the way that our countries should go and follow.

AMT: I think it's really important to hear both of your voices at this time to remind us. Thank you. Thank you so much for talking to me today.

DADA GASIRABO: Thank you very much.

HASAN HASANOVIC: You’re welcome.

AMT: Dada Gasirabo is the Executive Director of the Oasis Centre des Femmes, a woman's centre. Dada Gasirabo survived the Rwandan genocide. She's in our Toronto studio. Hasan Hasanovic works at the Srebrenica Genocide Memorial. He's the author of Surviving Srebrenica. He joined us from Srebrenica in Bosnia, Herzegovina. Let us know what you think. Go to the cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the contact link.

[Music: Credit Theme]

VOICE 1: And now it's time to give credit where credit is due. I’m Julian Uzielli, one of the producers here at The Current. And the rest of my colleagues that helped put the show together this week are Idella Sturino, Howard Goldenthal, Ines Calabrese, Lara O’brien, Shannon Higgins, Sujata Berry, Liz Hoath, Karin Marley, Kristin Nelson, John Chipman, Pacinthe Mattar and Willow Smith. Special thanks this week also to network producers Alex Mason in Halifax, Suzanne Dufresne in Winnipeg and Michael O'Halloran in Calgary. The Current’s writer is Peter Mitton, our web producer is Lisa Ayuso. Transcriptions are provided by Eunice Kim and Rignam Wangkhang. Our technical producer is Gary Francis, our documentary editor is Josh Bloch. Our senior producers are Richard Goddard in Toronto and Kathy Simon in Vancouver. The executive producer of The Current is Kathleen Goldhar.

AMT: Well that is our program for today. Remember, you can take The Current with you or listen when you want by using our CBC Radio app, it's free from the App Store or Google Play. And finally, after that conversation about the international lack of response to Syria, we're going to leave you with the words of Lucy Aharish. Lucy Aharish is the first Arab to be a news presenter on Hebrew language Israeli television in Israel. Earlier this year, she switched from Hebrew to English during a broadcast to send a powerful message to the wider world about Syria. Here she is referring to the city of Aleppo by its Arabic name Halab. We'll leave you with what she had to say. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti, thank you for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

LUCY AHARISH: Right now in Halab, Syria, just an 8 hour drive from Tel Aviv, a genocide is taking place. You know what, let me be more accurate. It is a holocaust, yes, a holocaust. Maybe we don't want to hear about it or deal with it. That in the 21st century, in the age of social media, in a world where information can fit into the palm of your hand, in a world where you can see and hear the victims and their horror stories in real time, in this world we are standing doing nothing, while children are being slaughtered every single hour. Don't ask me who is right and who is wrong. Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys because nobody knows. And frankly, it doesn't matter. What matters is that it's happening right now in front of our eyes and nobody in France or in the UK or in Germany or in America is doing anything to stop it. I'm an Arab, I'm a Muslim, I'm a citizen of the state of Israel. But I'm also a citizen of the world and I'm ashamed. Do we need a reminder? Armenia, Bosnia, Darfur, Rwanda, World War II. No, we don't. Albert Einstein said the world won't be destroyed by those who do evil but rather by those who watch them without doing nothing.

[Music: Extro]

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