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The Current Transcript for February 11, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

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Prologue

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MAN: The people with the highest number of complaints, 70, 80 complaints, and they're still on the street having a great time with a gun. It's irresponsible, but we do not govern the police. The police govern us.

MATT GALLOWAY Who polices the police? It is a question that has been asked for years, made more urgent by protests this past summer. In 30 minutes, Mark Kelly is here with a new investigation from "The Fifth Estate" on police oversight in Canada. Also, this morning, it's a troubling case of police power in Montreal. A Black man arrested and jailed for six days for an attack on a Montreal police officer. Video surveillance footage showed police had the wrong man. In an hour, the hard questions this case is raising in that province. And later, the word unprecedented is used to describe the situation we find ourselves in in this pandemic. Maybe, though, these times are more familiar than we'd think.

MAN: Once plague victims were identified, they were either treated at home or taken to separate plague hospitals, and then that contacts were either shut up in their apartments or taken to separate quarantine centres.

MATT GALLOWAY In an hour, how a plague handbook from the 16th-century seems eerily familiar to the steps taken today to keep COVID at bay. We begin, though, on the road in New Brunswick, with a pandemic lesson about the healing power of food in a First Nations community. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And this is "The Current".

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Canada’s Road Ahead: Eel Ground First Nation and food security

Guests: River Ward, Tammy Richardson, Shalyn Ward

MATT GALLOWAY For the past few weeks on this program, we have been making our way across the country, virtually, of course, in our radio RV for a series we're calling "Canada's Road Ahead". The point of this is to speak with people about how they're dealing with the pandemic, and hear where they're finding hope for the future. Today, we find ourselves in Eel Ground First Nation near Miramichi, New Brunswick, population less than a thousand. It is a small place that has struggled with a big problem. And that problem is food insecurity. Forty per cent of the community has difficulty getting enough food. For some perspective on that, the national average is less than 20 per cent. Today, we're going to speak with members of the Natoaganeg Community Food Centre. We tagged along this week on a Meals on Wheels program for elders.

[A knock on the door].

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Hi there! I'll leave it on the corner for you.

MAN: All right. Thank you.

RIVER WARD: OK. Have a good day. You're welcome.

RIVER WARD: Hi there. My name is River Ward. I am a volunteer at the Natoaganeg Community Food Centre. I was a past staff here just a few months ago, and I have now transferred over to the Eel Ground Health and Wellness Centre. And today, myself and Tammy are out delivering some meals, so I'll allow Tammy to introduce herself.

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Hi, I'm Tammy Richardson. I'm also a volunteer at Natoaganeg Community Food Centre. And here we go!

RIVER WARD: Geez, if I can ever hear the engine revving there! [Tammy chuckles] Tammy, NASCAR driver, NASCAR driver, elder deliveries, food bank volunteer. You do it all.

[A door swings open]

RIVER WARD: Hello, how are you?!

WOMAN: Good!

RIVER WARD: Long time no see!

WOMAN: Yeah.

RIVER WARD: Yeah.

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Hi!

RIVER WARD: It was nice seeing you guys. I felt like I haven't seen you guys in a little while now.

WOMAN: Yeah. Good, thank you!

RIVER WARD: Take care!

[A car door swings shut].

RIVER WARD: Between Wednesday and Monday, it feels like we haven't seen them in a while!

TAMMY RICHARDSON: I know!

RIVER WARD: It's nice seeing the whole family in there. I got to see them all. I was like, oh my gosh, I haven't seen you guys in a while. [both chuckle warmly] But it really does make you think of those.

TAMMY RICHARDSON: [Speaking: Mi'kmaq].

RIVER WARD: [chuckling] Tammy, seeing one of her students there.

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Come back, come back on Wednesday. You better! [laughing]

RIVER WARD: For a lot you who don't know, Tammy is an EA, so she just spotted one of her students and was telling them to --

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Come back to school!

RIVER WARD: Come back to school.

[A brief pause]

RIVER WARD: Alrighty, we're at another house here.

[Car doors swing open].

RIVER WARD: Just going to deliver these two in.

WOMAN: How are you doing?

RIVER WARD: I'm doing so good, how are you?

WOMAN: Good, I'm just trying to stay out of the cold.

RIVER WARD: Yeah, I'll close your door then. I'm letting all the hot air out on you. [chuckle] Nice seeing you. Take care.

WOMAN: [Speaking: Mi'kmaq].

RIVER WARD: I don't know if it's our community or if it's mothers or parents in general, you know? They'll always, whatever they have, like, they always offer and they'll share, you know? Like, so big in our culture, you know? And that this community has is that sharing is like, you know, really strong --

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Especially food, right?

RIVER WARD: Especially food. Yeah, it's such a strong foundation in this community.

[A knock on the door]

RIVER WARD: Hello!

MAN: What's going on there, Kiddos?

RIVER WARD: Not a whole lot. How have you been?

MAN: Good!

RIVER WARD: Good?

MAN: What do we got today?

RIVER WARD: Quesadillas.

MAN: Yeah?

RIVER WARD: Yeah! They smell great. How have you been enjoying them?

MAN: Oh, every day is a good day.

RIVER WARD: Yeah?

MAN: Every meal is perfect!

RIVER WARD: Oh, thank you for that!

MATT GALLOWAY: Tammy Richardson and River Ward are with me now. Good morning to you both.

BOTH: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tammy, NASCAR driver, [laughing] and food delivery person. [Tammy laughs] What is it like to be involved in making those... those deliveries to elders?

TAMMY RICHARDSON: It's so great, I feel privileged, actually, to be one that gets to see them every Monday and Wednesday and, you know, they're so happy. So it makes me very happy.

MATT GALLOWAY: How many meals would you be delivering on a regular basis?

TAMMY RICHARDSON: This, me and River, we do 38 to 40.

RIVER WARD: Yeah, we're at 40 now.

TAMMY RICHARDSON: And then the other group does another 40.

MATT GALLOWAY: And when you knock on the door, I mean, River, you could hear a little bit of it there. People are delighted to see you. What does it mean? You talked about the whole concept of sharing food. Tell me more about that?

RIVER WARD: Yeah, it's really, you know, heartwarming seeing their reactions, just having us come and drop off those meals. And a lot of these elders have shared with us before we've even started doing Meals on Wheels. You know, there's so many times when I was a kid, I would have been like eight years old just walking around, and it may have been a hot day, and I went out for a walk, and one of the elders would say, you know, come in here, come get a drink, or do you want a sandwich? And they would, like, share with us. And like, you know, make sure we're fed. And it was really a community effort because no matter where you were, there was somebody in the community checking in on you and making sure you were, you know, you're OK. If you needed, like, something to eat, to drink, and even just like advice in general and, like, you know, and knowledge being shared. It was really nice being able to give back to those who've given to us so much.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell us a bit of what you're delivering?

RIVER WARD: So we have a Red Seal chef at the Natoaganeg Community Food Centre, Brian Mathison, he cooks and prepares the meals every Monday and Wednesday for our elders. So the meals vary in which ones they are. You know, as you heard, we had quesadilla. And like, you know, before that we had pasta. And he even uses some traditional foods as well as our... as our elders would really, love is having that traditional meal.

MATT GALLOWAY: Was it always a delivery system, or is that just because of the times we're in right now?

RIVER WARD: So, pre-COVID, we had drop-in meals at the Natoaganeg Community Food Centre. You know, a lot of our elders, youth and anyone in between would come and enjoy these meals. So when COVID began, you know, we couldn't do that anymore. The space just wouldn't be able to accommodate with the social-distancing and everything that was needed because we were serving, you know, the same amount of people, which was about almost 60 to 80 people every night of those meals. So these... these began to be because of that. And, you know, we wanted to make sure our elders were safe and well-fed. You know, these meals save them a lot of trips to the grocery store because at the beginning, with so much uncertainty, you know, a lot of them were scared to go. You know, they didn't want to go unless they absolutely have to. So it really helped alleviate that stress.

MATT GALLOWAY: What was that like in those early days, Tammy? I mean, I think of what everybody was going through as the world changed so quickly. If you're out there delivering food, what was that like?

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Well, to be honest, scary at the beginning because we didn't know either, you know, what... what COVID was, or nobody really kind of knew. So we did our best to make sure we were safe, make sure the people that we were delivering to were safe.

MATT GALLOWAY You had hazmat suits?

TAMMY RICHARDSON: [laughing] Yeah, when we first started, yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: What was that like?

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Gloves, hazmat suits, masks. Well, we still wear masks, but. we were quite looking bunch going around. [Matt and Tammy chuckle].

RIVER WARD: I think a lot of them, you know, that initial reaction of us coming onto the... to the porch dressed like that was probably like, oh, no, why is the hazmat team here? But we were just delivering meals. So it was fun. Me and Tammy even made a TikTok of us in it. So, you know, we made the best of it.

MATT GALLOWAY: This whole idea of food security for people who they hear the phrase and they might not know exactly what it means, or it means different things to different people. How would you describe what food security means to you, River?

RIVER WARD: Food security, to me, is having access to good, nutritious, traditional and healthy food. Because, you know, there's a lot of times we see a lot of people, you know, they go for whatever's quick or they go they go for stuff like Kraft Dinner and what have you. But now that we're able to share these nutritious meals, you know, they're asking for these recipes. So I really think having the access is the most important thing to a food security.

MATT GALLOWAY The other side of being food-secure is being food-insecure. Tammy, what does food insecurity look like to you? What do you see in and sort of the day-to-day work that you do.

TAMMY RICHARDSON: For me, at a high school, like, I see the insecurity of the children that come there. We do provide a breakfast program, and it's well-used, also with a dinner program. We have lunch carts to make sure that all our students have lunch.

MATT GALLOWAY: How does that affect them? I mean, we heard you in, you know, that audio that we heard of you driving around, hollering out the window at one of your students, making sure that they're going to be there the next day. [Tammy laughs] How does that food --.

TAMMY RICHARDSON: She came today, too!

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, that's good! That's what you want! [River laughs]

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Yeah!

MATT GALLOWAY: How does that food insecurity affect them in the classroom?

TAMMY RICHARDSON: If they don't have good nutrition, they're going to be tired and sluggish. And, you know, it's high school, so they're... they feel ashamed to even ask. So we make it that it's not a shameful thing. And so without having these programs, their education would suffer. And I'm sure it does suffer in some places that we can't get to.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you see that stigma, River, in the work that you do, the stigma around needing some assistance and needing a helping hand?

RIVER WARD: I did see a lot of it. You know, many years before the food centre was, you know, here and before I worked there, you know, there was that stigma. Even, you know, I myself, if I... if I, you know, forgot my lunch or something, I did feel that shame as well. But now, what we've created there is that there is no stigma or shame. You know, anyone that comes in, it's a judgement-free, welcoming environment. And in reality, anyone that utilizes any of our programming, it's... it's all education-based, right? So they're learning something. So they don't feel like they're they're taking, they're gaining, right? They're gaining knowledge, and they're... they're gaining healthy, nutritious food. And it just makes it easier for access, especially during COVID, right?

MATT GALLOWAY Let's talk more about the work and with one of the people who's involved in helping to to bring that work to life. Shalyn Ward is the cultural coordinator at the Natoaganeg Community Food Centre. Shayln, good morning to you.

SHALYN WARD: Good morning to you, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: How do you see that idea of food security? What does that... what does that term mean to you?

SHALYN WARD: So food security, to me, means that you won't have to worry about your next... where your next meal's coming from.

MATT GALLOWAY: How do you address that in the community food centre? I mean, people may not know even what a community food centre is. So why don't you just first describe what the centre does?

SHALYN WARD: So at the community food centre that I work at, we have the good food bank. So it's not just your typical canned food, cereal. We have fresh produce. We have harvested moose meat from local hunters. We have lots and lots of options of good, healthy food. So you can go home and make a meal for your family or your children and so on. We also offer gardening tips, gardening kits, so you can also produce those foods at home. We also have beading classes, cultural events that are surrounded by food, community. So you're not only learning about what you're putting into your body, but also what's surrounding you. So your community is one of the main aspects of like having a good mental health, well also having good food. So here we have a community garden. So we would plant all the food, and whenever it's ready to be harvested, we would bring it either into the good food bank, or pre-COVID, we would use it in our drop-in meals.

MATT GALLOWAY: You were saying right off the beginning there that it's not a traditional food bank, even in terms of the food that you're offering. Why was incorporating traditional foods important to you?

SHALYN WARD: It wasn't originally my idea, but I feel traditional foods is a good way because we live in such... I want to say like a colonial mindset because we think, oh, we get hamburger at the grocery store, but you don't know where the hamburger has come from. Whereas traditional food, you offer your tobacco to the animal that you killed, right? So you're offering tobacco to their spirit. And when you... when you honour that spirit, you're also you're eating good food at the same time, you know? So, it's more of a makes your heart feel good, you know? Overall, it brings you back to, like, your ancestors times, right? You're sitting there, you're like, a hundred years ago, like, my great great great grandmother could have been sitting here eating fiddleheads, not Kraft Dinner, you know? Like this was an everyday thing.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's really powerful, it makes your heart feel good. That's a really neat way of putting it.

SHALYN WARD: Yeah!

MATT GALLOWAY River was hinting at this earlier, that whole idea of sharing food. I mean, there's this phrase that gets used, you know, you break bread around a table with somebody. What does that mean to you, Shalyn, that idea of sharing food with people?

SHALYN WARD: Sharing food is not only sharing food. You're making connections. You're coming in. You're sitting down, you're talking to elders, you're you're making those connections with not only your elders and not only your youth but everyone in the community. And making those connections makes us all one, right? So when we're all one, we can... we can fight the battles that we need to fight together, not just alone.

MATT GALLOWAY: We're in this time where we can't get together, in the ways, that we normally would. This is a bit of what has been missed in some ways. Take a listen to food centre manager Trish McDonald. She's got a snapshot of everything that in some ways has been planned out.

TRISH MCDONALD: Some of our programs we had planned for the upcoming months consists of rabbit snaring, bear grease workshops, ice eel steering and also ice trout fishing, fiddlehead picking and a moose hunting workshop later this fall.

MATT GALLOWAY: Shalyn, why is it important to offer that range of programs in the centre? What does that do?

SHALYN WARD: It's really important because it... it gives everyone a sense of where your food's coming from. You're venturing out into the wilderness. You're learning about the land that you're living on. It's like astonishing to know, like, this is the way we used to live every single day. And now we're putting it into our everyday lives now. So it's like... it's like a cycle. We're just going back to where we came from, right?

RIVER WARD: And I truly believe when we're participating in, you know, these land-based teachings and that, that while I'm working, I can feel the spirit of my ancestors in my hands and in my body and soul. You know, it creates a strong foundation, a connection. That feeling power, like Shalyn says, I do believe it's our ancestors, you know, empowering us to... to really take on the teachings they always shared with us.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's an incredible opportunity and responsibility to be part of that. One of the other things that is offered, and Shalyn was kind of mentioning this, at the centre, are these virtual cooking classes. Tell me a bit more about that.

RIVER WARD: With food insecurity, you know, insecurities so some people are insecure at the grocery store. So with these cooking classes, we're able to share these healthy meals, and also share these lists and also like location of where everything is at the... at the supermarket for them to pick stuff up and be able to, you know, kind of beat that insecurity of, you know, not knowing what they need or what they have to get. You know, we're helping guide them in that.

MATT GALLOWAY: We've seen over the course of this pandemic, Tammy, people turning to cooking to help alleviate some of the anxiety they might be feeling. The stress. I mean, initially, people were baking bread, and then they got more adventurous even beyond that. Have you seen access to food, and what Shalyn and River we're talking about in terms of the connection with food, have you seen that being a real boost for people's mental health?

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Even myself, who's no Chef Boyardee here, [everyone laughs] but I found even the food bank, our food good boxes provided the food, like, that were on the cooking shows. So the cooking show that he would do that week, they would give them kind of ingredients and everything that we're at the good food bank.

MATT GALLOWAY: I think you're probably better than Chef Boyardee. [everyone laughs some more]

RIVER WARD: She is. She's underestimating herself!

MATT GALLOWAY: She's just being very... you're being very humble and a sense of humility there. Let me... let me finish with this. We're doing this thing in sort of virtually travelling across the country. And I wish we could do this, you know, in real life. But the pandemic prevents us from doing that. But one of the things that we're doing is there's a lot of heaviness, and people have been through a lot over the last year or so. But they're looking for kind of the light at the end of this as well. And so we've been asking people where they find hope in the moment. Where, Tammy, in the work that you're doing, whether it's in delivering food or whether it's your work as an EA at the high school, where are you finding hope right now?

TAMMY RICHARDSON: In togetherness, I guess, sharing and wanting to help out other people, and wanting to share with other people.

MATT GALLOWAY: And has it taken a moment like this for... for that to kind of emerge, in some ways?

TAMMY RICHARDSON: I believe so. For a lot of people, for myself, too. I would have never been involved in this great opportunity of what the food bank is and what the food centre is. I am appreciative for that.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, River? Where are you finding hope right now?

RIVER WARD: My hope is found in community care in general. You know, whether... whether it's physical or not, and social-distancing and COVID, you know, we're creating that... that strong bond with our community that is going to last forever.

MATT GALLOWAY: And for you, Shalyn?

SHALYN WARD: I find hope in my fellow youth. Prior to COVID, I honestly didn't think that they had the mindsets that they do now because I see youth reaching out to help elders. I see youth helping each other, helping their parents, helping community members. Like, I'm just so thankful for my community. Like, it's even prior to COVID, and now with COVID, we just we amped up our game, and we're pushing through!

MATT GALLOWAY: It's brought... it's brought something out in people, hasn't it?

SHALYN WARD: Oh, yeah, 100 per cent.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah. You're all doing great work. And I really am glad to have had the opportunity to talk about that work that you're up to, and your community is thankful for it. Thanks for talking to us.

RIVER WARD: Thank you for having us.

MATT GALLOWAY: Take care of yourselves.

SHALYN WARD: You too!

TAMMY RICHARDSON: Take care.

MATT GALLOWAY: Shaalyn Ward is the cultural coordinator at the Natoaganeg Community Food Centre in Eel Ground First Nation in New Brunswick. River Ward and Tammy Richardson are volunteers with the food centre. Next week, we're pulling our virtual RV, as part of "Canada's Road Ahead", into Quebec. The CBC News is next. And then, who's policing the police? Mark Kelly from CBC's "Fifth Estate" will be here to talk about what happens to officers who have a history of violence on the job? Plus,

MAN: If I look at a police, you know, we make eye contact, you know, they just pull me over. Oh, they might see some kind of light is not working. They thought I didn't have on my seatbelt. All kinds of things they come up with, you know, just to stop you!

MATT GALLOWAY: Concerns around policing, systemic racism and racial profiling in Quebec. More on that to come. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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The Fifth Estate on how police are disciplined

Guests: Mark Kelly, Danielle Robitaille

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

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MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, what we can learn from the plague. And how a handbook of rules from the 16th century still applies to the situation we find ourselves in now. But first, policing the police.

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MATT GALLOWAY: For many people in Canada and elsewhere, this is a defining moment when it comes to the question of trust in our police forces. With the public demanding reform. Today, we're going to take a deeper look at police oversight, and we'll start that conversation with a new investigation from CBC's "The Fifth Estate".

PHILLIP PARKER: I was just bored, scanning the headlines for current events, and I came across "Niagara Region. Police Officer Shoots Fellow Cop." I just saw that headline, and I thought, here we go! He's finally gone too far! And so I clicked on the story, and I wasn't even reading it. I just started scrolling down looking for his name. As soon as I saw Nathan Parker, I went, bingo, because, of course, it was him!

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Phillip Parker, describing a 2018 shooting involving his brother, Nathan Parker, a police officer in Ontario's Niagara region. The shooting also involved another police officer. Nathan Parker is on paid leave from the force after being shot ten times. He's also the officer facing charges in the altercation. And this case is raising questions about a police system that allows officers to stay on the job despite serious disciplinary records. Mark Kelly is a co-host of "The Fifth Estate". Mark, good morning.

MARK KELLY: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Take us back to 2018. You don't often hear about a shooting between two police officers. What do we know about what happened?

MARK KELLY: Matt, I've been a journalist for more than 30 years. It's a rare occasion when a police officer in Canada is shot even, of course, rarer when it's shot by a fellow officer. Little was... was actually made public about this... this shooting, other than the fact that it had happened. But there was a lawsuit that was filed by one of the officers. So here's... here's what we know. It all starts with a routine traffic investigation. And you've got a police officer named Nathan Parker who had the job of securing the site. Apparently, he leaves his post without permission. When he comes back to his post, his commanding officer, Shane Donovan, gives him grief for it. What happens next is Parker shoves Shane Donovan. Shane Donovan says you're under arrest. Parker then, we are told through the lawsuit, start swinging punches at Shane Donovan. Shane Donovan takes his weapon out. So does Nathan Parker. So picture this. You've got two police officers standing in broad daylight, both with guns drawn, both pointed at each other. Nathan Parker was wearing a bullet-proof vest, and Shane Donovan wasn't. Donovan said he feared for his life. He pulls the trigger, shoots Parker ten times. Parker is airlifted to a hospital. He survives this. But when he gets out, he was the one charged with assault.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why is that the case? Why is Nathan Parker, the guy who was shot ten times, the one who's facing charges?

MARK KELLY: Yeah, I mean, that's the bizarre twist to the story. Originally, the Ontario's watchdog agency, the Special Investigations Unit, they investigated this, and they recommended charges be laid against Shane Donovan, the guy who pulled the trigger. But the Ontario Crown said it was an unwinnable case. So the Ontario Provincial Police takes over the investigation. And they end up laying three charges against Parker. And clearly, they believed Donovan when he said he feared for his life before he pulled the trigger.

MATT GALLOWAY: We heard at the beginning of this a little bit from Nathan Parker's brother.

MARK KELLY: Yup.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why did he suspect that his brother, the cop, was involved in this altercation?

MARK KELLY: Because, Matt, he doesn't just know his brother, he fears his brother. He... he described to us in a very emotional conversation that... that interview that we had had about what it was like growing up with his brother, about somebody who he emulated, was his big brother, he admired. But he said his big brother was prone to violent outbursts. And then he said he watched as his brother started getting body-building, he said getting more aggressive. And their relationship became more and more frayed. He was also following his brother's career from a safe distance. He said he'd had a couple of violent interactions with his brother. Needless to say, the two are now estranged. But he always knew, as we heard in that clip off the top, that this was just a matter of time before his brother did something particularly bad. And that's why he wasn't surprised when he was involved in the shootout.

MATT GALLOWAY: In your reporting, what else did you find out about Nathan Parker's history while he was with the Niagara Police Service?

MARK KELLY: Yeah, and this is sort of the key of the story right where it comes down to, Matt. And this is the central essence of it is, like, what do we really know about the disciplinary histories of police officers in this country, the police officers in our local police departments? And the answer is very, very little. What we find out about Nathan Parker is that he's had three prior convictions under the Police Services Act for violent interactions with members of the public. There was one incident where he had arrested a 16-year-old-kid. He's handcuffed in the back of his cruiser. And... and Parker Pepper sprays the kid in the face. There's another incident where he cuts off a cyclist, and the cyclist flips Parker the bird or something like that. Parker gets out of his vehicle and assaults the cyclist. And then there was a road rage incident where he cuts off a driver. The driver leans on the horn. Parker, who was off duty at that time, he gets out of his vehicle, and he's trying to pull the driver out of his car through the driver's window by his head. A passer-by calls 9-1-1 one, and then Parker goes and starts assaulting the guy who was calling 9-1-1. And these are all the incidents that happened prior to this shootout. So the question was, why was he still on the job?

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, how were you able to piece all of this together?

MARK KELLY: Well, we pieced together this with some newspaper articles, some court documents and our own sources involved with the police force. But it should be noted, we had no help from Niagara Regional Police. They see an officer's disciplinary record as an employment record, and therefore, it should be kept confidential. So there's no province, and this is key to this story, that makes it mandatory for internal disciplinary decisions to be made public. None. So what you have in these instances, if you've got a case of excessive force or assault, as it was in this case, it's the police who police themselves. It's handled internally. It's handled handled quietly. And, Matt, we're living in a time now where we want to talk about, you know, the lack of local coverage for journalists across this country --

MATT GALLOWAY: We've seen that in the last couple of weeks, certainly.

MARK KELLY: Absolutely.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah, yeah. And eviscerations of newsrooms, yeah.

MARK KELLY: And they're the ones who are going to find out if something's going on in a police department, if somebody had a disciplinary hearing. With fewer oversight like this, even from the media, we just don't know. These decisions are kept secret because there's no province that says that mandates they should be made public, so we have a better understanding, is this a problem with a police officer or is this a problem with a police department?

MATT GALLOWAY: But you asked a really interesting question just in the conversation there, which is why was he still on the police force? If there's this history of those incidents, I think the question that a lot of people have is if this was in any other, you know, form of employment, you'd be out the door, would you not?

MARK KELLY: Yeah, and this is why so many people feel that there is this double standard when it comes to police. I mean, in his case, Parker was sent on a couple of occasions for anger management training courses. He was docked, you know, 90 days' pay in some cases. But in terms of an extreme punishment, I mean, that just doesn't happen. The feeling is that... that we can control our own. We want to keep the problem in-house.

MATT GALLOWAY: We being the police services?

MARK KELLY: Being the police services, and they can handle it on their own. And that's where there is this lack of accountability. And what we've seen, Matt, and we saw last summer all across North America, where people feel that the police are getting away with something, that the police aren't being held accountable. And more needs to be done for police oversight.

MATT GALLOWAY: And again, there is no obligation on the police forces to make this sort of information public?

MARK KELLY: No, not... not unless this involves serious injury or death. That's when it goes to a watchdog agency.

MATT GALLOWAY The Special Investigation Unit.

MARK KELLY: Special Investigation Unit that we have here in Ontario, and similar watchdog agencies across the country. But when you talk about, you know, excessive force or assault, and there are so many cases like this. So when we asked Niagara Regional Police, they said we're not going to share it with you. But it should be noted, we asked Toronto Police, and they did share disciplinary history records with us. So that's it's a patchwork quilt. It's left up to individual departments if they want to be transparent or not. And, you know, many critics see that as being a real problem and a real weakness in the system.

MATT GALLOWAY: Stay with us, Mark. I want to bring someone else into this conversation. Danielle Robitaille is a partner at Henein Hutchison. She was the senior counsel in an Ontario-wide review of police oversight led by Justice Michael Tulloch four years ago. Danielle, good morning to you.

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you listen to what Mark has been detailing, what comes to mind when you hear about this case of Nathan Parker, what's it really about to you?

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Well, to me, it represents total frustration because I was involved in a wide-sweeping law reform project headed by the very respected, lauded Justice Michael Tulloch. And what he found, and reported to the province in April of 2017, was that the police oversight system lacks transparency, accountability, and it's terribly inefficient. And is a patchwork, as Mark said. And so this is something that we in the business have known for a long, long time. And the issue is ripe for reform. There was legislation on the books. It was shelved by the Conservatives. And that the project is stalled, essentially. And it is extremely frustrating because we all know what needs to happen, and that is independent investigation and adjudication of public complaints of police use of violence and assault of detainees and members of the public. It's not rocket science, and it's very difficult to understand why there's no political will to move this reform forward.

MATT GALLOWAY: Who is policing the police?

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Well, in Ontario, the way the way it works is if it's... if it's an allegation that falls below serious injury or death, the complaint is handled internally with the police. It's investigated internally at the agency. And then if there is a hearing, and there isn't always a hearing, but if there's a hearing, what happens is the chief of police appoints a prosecutor and appoints the adjudicator. And so what we heard when Justice Michael Tulloch travelled across the province in wide consultation is that members of the public who complained about police conduct felt that that system meant the fix was in because the chief appoints the prosecutor and and the judge.

MATT GALLOWAY: What would... what would the chief have to gain from that, in saying that the fix is in? What would the chief have to gain?

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Well, the problem, of course, is that the perception of bias. There may be in some cases, actual bias. But you consider someone in the Parker case, let's say the 16-year-old kid who's been pepper-sprayed by an officer while he's handcuffed, by the way, complains to the the police, and that hearing that he testifies and is a hearing that's held in police headquarters. And the person asking him questions in in the case is someone that the chief of police appointed. And so, you know, there's no independence, and there's no sense of independence, and it has a corrosive impact on the confidence that witnesses and members of the public have in the system.

MATT GALLOWAY: One of the things that we were just talking about with Mark was how someone with multiple disciplinary offences, as Nathan Parker had, how he's found to be violent, to your point, to members of the public, how is he allowed to still be on the job?

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Well, you know, I think what I'd like to say is commend really the team at "The Fifth" for kind of panning the camera back and taking a look at the system. You know, it's hard to say how any single outcome makes sense in a single case. But what law reformers point out is flaws in the system and flaws in the process. And I think, you know, what we... what we know is when a system is not transparent, it's ripe for abuse and corruption. But when you let the light in, and when members of the local press and members of the public are aware of discipline hearings happening, attend to them, they're wildly reported, I think what you'd find is vastly different outcomes in these cases. And so, you know, though, I'm not prepared to kind of comment on whether any individual outcome is appropriate. What we know is the system is ripe for abuse.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is it fair to say, as some people might, that there would be a double standard? If the system allows for police, in some ways, to police themselves, that that could lead to a double standard where in you know, in other forms of employment, if you did you had those disciplinary marks on your record, you wouldn't be employed by that employer anymore?

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Sure, sure. I mean, there are good reasons why the system should be different than just a standard H.R. process. You know, policing is a complex job. The demands are extreme. And, you know, many of these scenarios are multifaceted. So, you know, I don't have a problem with a hearing process, but we spoke to many, many officers and police unions across the province who also didn't have confidence in the system, and... and felt that they were not being dealt with fairly once they were accused. And so, you know, there's widespread understanding that the system can't continue in the way that it's currently constituted.

MATT GALLOWAY: How has the urgency around this issue changed in recent years? I mean, in part, we saw the protests across North America this past summer. But we also live in an era where we have... we all have a camera in our pockets and access to, you know, broadcasting networks where we can post photos and videos online. So what does that do in terms of the urgency around this issue?

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: I think it's a game-changer, Matt. Because when these videos get posted across the country, and we saw many of them over the summer and through the fall, it's a real wake-up call to members of the public who can live their entire lives without ever interacting with police. And can kind of go about their daily business with blinders on and not realize that this is a problem that's corroding confidence in policing across the country. And I think the videos have a real impact on the mainstream public by drawing attention to this this issue. But I got to tell you, [chuckling] it feels like Groundhog Day because the thing that caused Justice Michael Tulloch to undertake this review were protests around the shooting death of Andrew Loku in 2016. And as a result of those protests, the review was called. And here again, in 2020, there is more unrest and more protests. And the last thing I think we need is another review, another consultation. We've had rounds and rounds of these, and the solution is apparent. It is just time to act.

MATT GALLOWAY: Part of the solution, and coming out of Justice Tulloch's report that you were part of in that review, was looking at making all decisions made public. And that there needs to be an independent tribunal, but there needs to be daylight as well. What would that do that, that daylight?

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Well, particularly for the SIU, what we found was where... where there's been a death of a member of the public as a result of a police interaction, and the SIU declines to lay charges, they don't charge the officer, that can be devastating for members of the public. And when the decisions are not made public, it has a very negative impact on the confidence in the SIU and also the police. And so what Justice Tulloch recommended is that the director reports, the reports that kind of lay out the reasoning of the decision, including the evidence, the photos, the videos, the maps that they be released to the public so they can see it for themselves, assess the wisdom of the decision for themselves. And in many cases, it could be understood, you know, that the reason why an officer wasn't charged because their defence of self-defence is valid is made out. And so the difficulty really is to keep it secret, to keep it behind closed doors doesn't engender any confidence.

MATT GALLOWAY: You said that the absence of that... or in the absence of that, it's hard to, these are your words, It's hard to know what's a bad apple and what is a completely rotten bushel.

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Yeah. And I think what we see in the Parker and Donovan case, and what I think is... is new in this area is that we're not hearing the calls for reform from activists and Indigenous communities and Black communities across the country. We've been hearing those for generations. But, in 2020, what we're hearing are calls from inside, insiders calling for reform. You know, Donovan sues Parker, and Donovan points his finger at Parker, but he also points the finger at the Niagara Police Service and says, look, this was a bad selection, this was bad training, and this was poor discipline. And so we're hearing now the calls for reform coming from within. We're hearing female officers across the country complaining about systemic discrimination and bias. And so it's not just outsiders and civilians calling for change. It's senior officers and members of these police agencies that say something's got to give.

MATT GALLOWAY: So there's so much at stake here individually, but also because of the, you know, the collective effect that a police force can have on a community. I mean, the trust has to be inherent for the force to be able to do its work in a way that creates confidence within the community that it's policing. So you've called this Groundhog Day and said that these reforms have been called for for a long time, but nothing really has happened. How could forces across the country use this case, the Nathan Parker case, as an example of how to rethink what they're doing?

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Well, that's a really great point, Matt, because, you know, the focus is really on... on the province to make sweeping substantive changes. But there are little things that each service can do to engender confidence in their system. And, you know, that goes back to the patchwork point that Mark makes. There's nothing stopping police services from posting publicly when they're... when they are disciplining officers so that members of the community can attend. And, of course, now some of those hearings are happening remotely by Zoom. You know, making the hearings known to the public, publishing the the decisions. I mean, certainly, police services do not hesitate to issue press releases when civilians are charged with crimes. We see that, you know, and I'm a defence lawyer by day, Matt. [chuckling] We see that over and over again. Let the light in, show the public how you deal with officers who are alleged to have misconducted themselves.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just before I let you go, I mean, there was the case in Toronto of Regis Korchinski-Pacquet, who was a young Black woman. There were questions around whether police would be charged in her death. The Special Investigations Unit, which was overseeing that investigation, did release what I think a lot of people thought was an unusually an incredibly detailed report into why it chose not to charge police officers. Is that a sign of progress?

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I... and I think that that's what Justice Michael Tulloch called for. And, you know, there's this issue of releasing back reports that we're waiting to... to hear on. We're waiting to see how that... how that evolves. But that that is really what members of the public have been crying out for. And what is a good way to... to... to show how these agencies work and and to kind of show the work. But there's a long way to go. There's a lot of distrust between these communities. And it's a complex problem. You know, carding has a lot to do with it as well. And, you know, we heard that all over the province, not just in Ontario.

MATT GALLOWAY: Danielle, appreciate your time this morning on this. Thank you very much.

DANIELLE ROBITAILLE: Thanks, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Danielle Robitaille is a partner at Henein Hutchison. Mark Kelly has been listening into this. When it comes to investigating police and disciplinary rulings, I mean, Danielle was talking about the work that she's done here in Ontario. What does it look like in other provinces?

MARK KELLY: Well, I just want to pick up on a point she was making. She says, you know, there's nothing stopping the police from from publishing when there's going to be a disciplinary hearing so the public could attend or what the results are. Well, in fact, in Saskatchewan, there's... there's legislation on the books that explicitly bars the release of internal disciplinary findings, despite the hearings addressing serious allegations. So... so there are some actual impediments that are in there. For, you know, when I said no, I wouldn't release Nathan Parker's history, they consider this to be an employment record, so they consider that to be confidential. So there are impediments out there to for the public to find out more about who... who is policing us.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is there anyone doing it better?

MARK KELLY: You know, as I mentioned before, when we asked the Toronto Police to release disciplinary history, they did do that. They did that willingly. But there still needs to be, I think, more insight and more oversight into finding out the past of these police officers that are walking the beat.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let's go back to this case that we've been talking about, the Nathan Parker case. Where does it stand now?

MARK KELLY: Well, he is... he's been charged. Three counts, as I mentioned. He's got a criminal trial, which is scheduled for September. It's been put off a couple of times. And... and Danielle alluded to the fact earlier she mentioned a lawsuit. And this is the sort of the bizarre part of it that... that Shane Donovan, the guy who pulled the trigger, is now suing Nathan Parker and the Niagara Regional Police, his employer, for two-million dollars, claiming that Niagara Regional Police had failed to properly discipline Parker in the past when they knew, and this is in the lawsuit, that he was dangerous and that he was violent.

MATT GALLOWAY: Aside from saying that this is an employment issue, how has Nathan Parker and the Niagara Police Service responded to an investigation?

MARK KELLY: They haven't. In short, they haven't. They said this is an ongoing matter before the courts, so they refuse to discuss any details with us.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mark, thank you very much.

MARK KELLY: Thanks, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mark Kelly, co-host of the CBC's "The Fifth Estate". His new documentary, "Policing the Police", airs tonight at 9:00 p.m. on CBC Television. Coming up after your regional update, we'll continue to speak about policing in this country. We'll head to Quebec. And something different, staying six feet apart, only one family member shopping, quarantine orders. Does that sound familiar? No, it's not 2021. It's the 17th century and the plague. We'll take a look at lessons perhaps that we could learn from that pandemic. That's coming up. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". We're back in 90 seconds. Stick around.

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Quebec inquiry into wrongful conviction of Mamadi III Fara Camara; and how we can learn from a 16-th century plague book

Guests: Maria-Livia Beauge, John Henderson

MATT GALLOWAY: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". Before the break, we were speaking about problems with policing and police oversight in Ontario. Now to Quebec, and a wrongful arrest in Montreal. Mamadi Camara is a 31-year-old PhD student who spent six nights in jail accused of attacking a police officer. He's a Black man who says he actually witnessed this crime and called 9-1-1. Camara has since been released, and the Montreal police force has apologized. But now the province is launching an enquiry led by Justice Louis Dionne. Here is the premier of Quebec, Francois Legault.

FRANCOIS LEGAULT: We don't have enough information to know if it's a case of racism. I think that Mr. Dionne will be able to answer this question about the motivation, about why it happened this way, would it have been the same if it was a white person? So we need to have these answers.

MATT GALLOWAY: Many members of Black communities in Quebec say this is indeed a case of racism, and they say that that review should focus on systemic racism after years of racial profiling by police in Montreal. Maria-Livia Beauge is a Montreal lawyer and activist. Marie-Livia, good morning to you.

MARIE-LIVIA BEAUGE: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: What's your reaction to this case?

MARIE-LIVIA BEAUGE: Well, my reaction to this case is for sure, the fact that we cannot ignore the fact that racial profiling has something to do with the reaction that the police officer and their colleagues reacted to Mamadi Camara. And also when we know that there was witnesses that also said that Mamadi Camara was not the one who attacked the police but felt those information was not taken seriously. And when we know that in November 2019, the police came with a report that said that Black people are four to five times more likely to be arrested by the police. And also, a teacher from the University of Concordia came out with a report that said that one of the squad of the police that was created to control the firearm and to try to prevent the use of a firearm in Quebec, 74 per cent of the people arrested by this squad were Black people. However, they were not the ones with with firearms. Thirty per cent of the accusation was for firearms, and most of those 30 per cent were white people.

MATT GALLOWAY: So when you... when you hear with this specific case, the public security minister in Quebec saying yesterday that Justice Dionne could decide to look at systemic racism, that... that is not necessarily going to be the focus of this, but that could be something that's brought into this. What's your reaction?

MARIE-LIVIA BEAUGE: Yeah, well, I think that when the prime minister who said, you know, he didn't even said the systemic racism, he said racism. So for him, systemic racism does not exist. However, it is a judge. So for sure, I think he's not only going to look at the fact that, OK, it might be racism or systemic racism but also, how come the police did not look through all the proof that they had since the beginning carefully?

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, and you mentioned the premier in talking about systemic racism. Francois Legault has said on a number of occasions that he doesn't believe systemic racism exists in Quebec. How... how widespread is that mindset, do you think?

MARIE-LIVIA BEAUGE: Well, I think that a lot of people in Quebec voted for him and, like, follow what he thinks. Most of the time when he speaks, he said, well, all my Facebook friends. [chuckling] And this is also a problem because we are trying, you know, to sensibleness the more people towards the situation of systemic racism. We do think that we're making progress, but there's still a lot of people who does not want to admit that there is systemic racism. But I think that most of them it's because they don't know what systemic racism is. And with a prime minister who just says systemic racism does not exist and does not, you know, talk about really the definition of what it is, then this is problematic because he's appropriating an information that is false. And that brings a lot of people to mistake what is systemic racism and to not believe in it. And not believing in the problem that does exist that we've been talking since years ago, you know, within reports and everything. So --

MATT GALLOWAY: And just to be clear, it's the premier that's saying that. The premier is the one who is saying he doesn't believe that systemic racism exists.

MARIE-LIVIA BEAUGE: Yes, exactly.

MATT GALLOWAY: In this case, I mean, for your clients and for people in the community, when they hear of someone spending six nights in jail, and then it turns out that the wrong person was grabbed. And, you know, it takes the video evidence to show that. What does that do... it sounds like an obvious question in some ways but what does it do when it comes to the trust of police that your clients would have?

MARIE-LIVIA BEAUGE: It completely destroys the trust of the police. The trust of the police was already damaged with all, you know, those death. We had Freddy Villanueva, who was just a kid, who was only 18 years old, was killed by a police officer that still worked at the police after that. We had like Pierre Corioln, who was killed with, you know, a police baton, tasers, firearms. He was killed with everything. We had the videos and everything. So those... all those cases, they just, you know, make us distrust the police. And now, we see the police officers, they will do anything as long as one police officer said something, they won't even question it. They won't even do the investigation properly. SO this is something that destroys --

MATT GALLOWAY: Just finally, I mean, we've been speaking about police oversight in the last half-hour of the program. Do people in the community have confidence in... in the oversight of police and in the investigations into police? If they have concerns around police themselves, are they confident that the investigations will get to the roots of the issue.

MARIE-LIVIA BEAUGE: Unfortunately, no, because we have here right now in Quebec, we have the bureau which is supposedly doing investigation independently but the one... and I think that Danielle also said that in Toronto, the one that is appointed to be the director of this bureau, is someone appointed by police officers. So it's police... also, it's the same thing in Quebec. It's the police investigating the police. And also, in Quebec, at least they try to, you know, make other police from other region of Quebec investigate to, you know, police from other regions. However, it happens a lot that the SPVM, the police of Montreal, have ex-officers in the investigation towards the SPVM. So this is also problematic. There's no independence. There's no transparency because the independent investigation that will be done by the Judge Dionne is not going to be fully public. And this is so problematic because we do not trust, you know, the police as it is right now. And now, the investigation that is going to take place, we're not going to to know exactly how it ended with the decision that it will end.

MATT GALLOWAY: Marie-Livia, we'll leave it there, but we will follow this and perhaps speak again. I appreciate speaking with you this morning, though.

MARIE-LIVIA BEAUGE: Yes, thank you. Have a nice day.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you, Marie-Livia Beauge is a Montreal lawyer and activist. We did request comment from Montreal Police, but we have not heard back.

[Music: Groovy]

MATT GALLOWAY: You're listening to "The Current" on CBC Radio One, my name is Matt Galloway. Stay six feet apart, no shaking hands, only one person allowed out of the house to do the shopping. Does that sound familiar? These are measures we're still trying to get used to a year into this pandemic. But a 16th-century manual written by an Italian doctor shows it was just as challenging for people centuries ago during the plague in Europe. John Henderson is a professor of Italian Renaissance history at Birkbeck College, University of London. He wrote the book "Florence Under Siege: Surviving Plague in an Early Modern City". John Henderson, good morning to you.

JOHN HENDERSON: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thanks for being here. Start, if you would, just by the plague. How did the plague come to the island of Sardinia during this time in the 16th century? What was going on there?

JOHN HENDERSON: Well... well, plague had recurred frequently in Italy since the Black Death in the middle of the 14th century. One of the worst waves began in 1575 to 1577, which then affected principally northern Italy and Sicily. The epidemic then died down, but once again began in two years later in 1979 in Liguria, which is the area around Genoa in northwest Italy, which is the nearest part of the Italian mainland to to the east of Sardinia. It then began in Marseilles, in southern France, in 1581. And it's probable that it was brought to Sardinia by boat, where it then broke out in the city of Alghero in 1582.

MATT GALLOWAY: How did it get in by boat? I mean, we now have all sorts of travel restrictions. Were those things in place, were there people who were guarding the island to ensure that the plague didn't arrive on its shores?

JOHN HENDERSON: Well, normally what happened is if plague was suspected in an area, there were very strict sanitary legislation imposed by the sort of local health authorities, where people arriving and ships arriving from infected areas were put on hold, as it were, and quarantined outside the city. It's unclear what happened in this case. I mean, the plague hadn't yet broken out in Sardinia, so it's possible that docked in the port and then it spread from there.

MATT GALLOWAY: I mentioned in the introduction that as this is unfolding, what is created is this sort of how-to manual on on how to handle the plague, how to avoid transmitting the plague. How did this this manual come to be?

JOHN HENDERSON: Well, so this is an absolutely fascinating manual. It's actually what we call a plague tract. And it was part of a long tradition of tracts going back to the Black Death of 1348, which were written by doctors during and after plague epidemics in order to provide advice to governments on how to handle crises. And also to individuals and how to preserve their health and not get the plague. And so recognize the signs and how plague should be treated. Now, this particular tract was written in 1588 in Cagliari, in Sardinia, by the physician called Quinto Tiberio Angelerio. And it went through then various editions. The second was called "The Epidemiology or the Treatise on Plague", which was published in 98. Now, Alghero held the office in Sardinia of what was called a proto-physician, and he was essentially in charge of the medical profession on the... on the... in Alghero. And also had a very important public health role. And it's also important to stress that he had worked in Sicily a few years earlier during the epidemic of 1575 to 6, and therefore already had first-hand experience of plague.

MATT GALLOWAY: This tract, the booklet, lays out these rules. There are 57 rules. What are some of them that would be familiar to us now in the midst of the pandemic that we're living through?

JOHN HENDERSON: Well, I suppose one of the main ones, and you can really divide them into two main sections. One is at city level. So, therefore, once plague had broken out, they carefully controlled anybody entering the town. They then divided up the city into zones, 10 zones, each of which had a health officer in charge to direct the campaign against plague. So if one thinks of somewhere like I don't know, Toronto or London, obviously each of those... each of those cities now has separate, separate areas within it to reflect, in a sense, what was happening then. More broadly, regulations were against groups gathering together. I mean, as we're in lockdown at the moment in Britain. So, for example, people were not supposed to play games outside or attend meetings. There was also regulations about concerning the sick once plague had broken out. And obviously, some of these are familiar, and some of them are less familiar. So, for example, there was a strict separation of the sick from the well. So once plague victims were identified, they were either treated at home or taken to separate plague hospitals. And then their contacts were either shut up in their apartments or taken to a separate quarantine centres. Obviously, that's a bit different. Those houses where somebody's been sick or died within disinfected. And this doesn't happen now. And the mattresses and textiles within it were taken out and burnt. And then surfaces were washed with vinegar. And the clothes of the sick were sterilised through heat in the stoves. And, in fact, our author is said to be the first person to have recommended dry heat to disinfect clothes. So this would have killed both the bacillus of the bubonic plague and also the fleas. Then also after that, again, different from I mean, not the same as now, obviously, but when the house was locked up, a red cross was painted on the front door and nobody was allowed to leave. But the inhabitants inside were said. And indeed, during the epidemic, medical treatment and food was provided free to the poor. So... so there was a combination, if you like, of both institutional and also house quarantining of the sick and their contacts.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about this, what I suggested in the introduction, this rule that if you went out, you needed to have some sort of six foot cane so that you'd stay away from other people. What was going on there?

JOHN HENDERSON: Well, again, I think it was a recognition that the... that the plague could be spread through the air. I mean, in the way... in the way that we see with covid now. I mean, it wasn't something that was necessarily true of the bubonic plague, which is spread by infected fleas from rats. But the idea of the... of the... of the carrying the cane was simply to indicate the distance that people should.... should maintain from each other. Because obviously, they thought if somebody breathed out air, which was.. which was formed from a sick body, then people would... would get plague. Because that, in a sense, is people thought of plague as being corrupt air, which is breathed out by somebody who's sick or alternatively can be sort of created through sort of miasmas in the atmosphere coming from, say, bogs and neighbouring areas. So that was essentially the aim to keep people... keep people apart. And, in fact, there are a lot of very detailed regulations and records which survived for plague in early modern London. And that's one of the sayings they say keep... keep clear, keep well clear of other people.

MATT GALLOWAY: We see now pushback in some corners and resistance to public health measures. What was the reaction to the measures then? I mean, what were people doing and how were they... if they found that these, you know, regulations were too onerous, how are they going about violating them?

JOHN HENDERSON: Well, I guess there's a lot of similarity between the past and present in that sense that, I mean, most people appear to have obeyed the rules. And people were supposed to remain in their houses, I've said, particularly if they had come into contact with others who were sick. But there are lots of... there are examples of people leaving their houses and being prosecuted. One of the... one of the things that emerged from my book, which I was most interested... found most interesting and actually unexpected. The book is about plague in Florence during the last epidemic when it hit the city in the year 1630 to 31. Part of that sort of last wave of the 1665 epidemic in London was part of the same pandemic. And and I was fortunate enough to come across in the archive over 550 court cases against people breaking the law. And obviously, this probably only reflected, obviously, those people who'd been caught rather than everybody who had been breaking health regulations. But I think what's fascinating about it is that it gives a very vivid idea of what it was like to live during an epidemic, how the regulations changed life at the time. And the vast majority of people were actually just trying to maintain a normal life and their personal relations or protect or acquire possessions. So in my book, what I do is to divide them up into a series of different categories. So those ones, for example, I mean, the vast majority were associated with their house and home. So in other words, either trying to break out of houses where they were supposed to have been shut up, or break into a house where somebody had been taken off to quarantine centre. There were certainly evidence of people breaking in and stealing goods and stealing clothes. And there was an enormous concern about clothes in this period because they were believed to be able to hold within them the corrupt vapours of plague. And therefore, obviously, that would transport the plague from one place to another. And the second-hand clothes industry was, therefore, banned there. There are also, I think, a lot of very personal stories about people, about leaving the house without thinking. So there's example of a lady in November 1630 who leaves her house in pursuit of a chicken, which has escaped from her house. And she sort of says, I am out. I rushed out... In the court when she is taken up before the judge, I rushed out in order to find this chicken, which has escaped. And she'd been arrested. And, I mean, when the judge heard her story, I mean, he was clearly full of compassion, just let her go. There's another example of a woman called Moana Beta Dantonio who let down a basket in order to.... because she lives in the... in the flat above her son because she says her son had asked me to mend a pair of trousers. So I let down the basket so that he could put them inside for me since he was locked up in quarantine in a room underneath. And then the gentleman of the health board arrived and saw the basket and made me go to prison. I mean, and once again, she was released after a short time. And there are also examples... and I think this is something that's not often reflected in the period of the time, a sort of the ideas of loneliness as we've all experienced over the last year. There's an example of a lady called Lcrezia DeFrancesco BIanche, who had moved to a friend's house despite having been told she had to stay in her own one. So she went of to visit this woman, her a friend of hers, Maria. And when she'd been arrested for leaving her locked-up house, she said, quote, that she didn't want to remain alone at house. I went to stay in this house in the miller's friend, who's my friend, thinking I'd not done anything wrong. And I found myself in the house of good people. Nevertheless, she was, and you know, once again found convention fairly convincing. There are also examples of sociability which... which do break the law much more significantly. So people, for example, going to taverns, people playing cards. And obviously, this was, yoo know, serious time during lockdown. So this discouraged. There are even cases of people walking along the top of roofs, along terraced houses in order to visit friends and have a party and play the guitar and so on.

MATT GALLOWAY: How did class and wealth play into that? Because often you will find in, I mean, it's not an old story. It's a familiar story, where the poor will end up.... because perhaps they can't afford to stay home as we see in this current pandemic, but perhaps they would face blame as well for the spreading of the virus or for the failure to eradicate the virus. So how did class and wealth come into play in this?

JOHN HENDERSON: I think it was a very significant factor. And, I mean, the poor clearly were the people who suffered most. And in many ways, it was governments who are light years on various groups of society, such as the poor, for whom they really blame for spreading and even causing the plague. So one thing that governments did was to sort out the... the poor from beggars. And they would send away foreign beggars. In other words, people who came from outside the city, and put the local beggars, as it were, into a beggars hostel, where, I mean, they were provided with free food and board and lodging. The other thing more about the medical idea of plague, apart from coming out of the atmosphere, and infecting people's breath, was also the idea that this... this evil vapours from plague corrupted people's humours, which were the sort of bodily liquids within people's bodies. And it was feared that the... The poorm who eat food have poor quality, would have their humours infected and corrupted more. So that was, in a sense, another aspect of... Of... of the sort of attitudes towards this period to the poor.

MATT GALLOWAY: How did... part of this is about how cities, as you say in the book, survived the plague. What did the societies learn to adapt to in the cycle of pandemics that perhaps we might take? We talk a lot about resilience. We talk a lot about adaptation. Pivot has become, you know, one of the words of our time, in some ways. So are there things that we could learn from what those early cities were up against that we could apply to the situation we find ourselves in now?

JOHN HENDERSON: It's I think it's always difficult making parallels between the past and the present. And clearly, there is a commonality between one epidemic and another. Epidemic of plague, of course, compared with COVID, had a much higher mortality rate. I mean, 50 per cent of a city could be... could be wiped out during an epidemic. But I suppose in terms of similarities, very broadly, one can see the very difficult decisions which were faced by all governments sort of over the conflict between public health measures in the economy in particular. I mean, the effect of closing borders then, as now, restricted people travelling. And as I've mentioned in relation to these court cases that are very much the impact of lock down on individuals, the sort of psychological impact of loneliness. And obviously, the difficulty of making ends meet as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: So as a historian, when you look at what those in the past went through, are there things that you hope people would take away from the plagues of the past that would help us? We talk about this as being, you know, an unprecedented time, and it is certainly for those of us living through it. But... but in history, it's not. The sweep of history has seen this, in some ways, before. So are the things that you hope people would take away from the plagues of the past in the situation they find themselves in now?

JOHN HENDERSON: Well, I suppose in terms of government policy, the... the necessity to take action quickly, I mean, that didn't always actually have as much effect as they wanted in the case of plague. I think also the sort of necessity to support the poorer members of society, those people who are worst affected economically by this epidemic and the epidemics in the past. And the particular one that I examined, in fact, I was very struck by the compassionate nature of attitudes towards... towards the poor members of society that they created sort of public health works in order to provide work for people during the plague. They... they provided free food during the total quarantining in the city, and even allowed some employees to continue working in the textile industry, for example. I think the other thing, which I've been very struck over the last year as well, is in a sense which... which did provide a parallel, which is the sort of people's compassion and how it's been arisen. How it's arisen in... in this period. And I mean, in the period that I'm looking at, I mean, one can see it very much through the role of charity provided by not only governments, but also individuals, the enormous number of volunteers who staffed hospitals and who staffed sort of isolation hospitals and also went around doing some sanitary serveys and so on. In other words, all those people in the sort of the front line are against epidemics, as in the case of public health workers today.

MATT GALLOWAY: John Henderson, this is fascinating. It's really a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much.

JOHN HENDERSON: Thank you very much. Goodbye.

MATT GALLOWAY: John Henderson is a professor of Italian Renaissance history at Birkbeck College, University of London, and the author of the book "Florence Under Siege: Surviving Plague in an Early Modern City". Now, that is "The Current" for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's "Q". Tom Power. Speaking with Chaka King about his new film, "Judas and the Black Messiah", getting all sorts of interesting reviews early on. You'll hear that conversation coming up in a few moments on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current". Take care. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

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February 11, 2021 Episode Transcript

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