Denmark drops all COVID-19 restrictions

Guests: Michael Bang Petersen, Dr. Zain Chagla

MG: Today in Denmark, you can go to a nightclub, see a movie, eat in a restaurant, all without a vaccine passport or wearing a mask. The country has lifted all COVID restrictions on the crown. Case counts are still high, but low hospitalisation numbers and a high vaccination rate were enough to convince the prime minister, Mr. Frederiksen, to make that move. Joining me now is Michael Bang Petersen. He's a professor of political science at our House University and advises the Danish government on its COVID response. Professor. Good morning.

MICHAEL BANG PETERSON: Good morning.

MG: Why now has the Danish government ended all COVID restrictions? Even as as I mentioned, the case counts are still high and hospitalisations are higher than they have been at any point during the pandemic.

MICHAEL BANG PETERSON: A very clear focus in the Danish response and the Danish strategy against COVID is whether hospitals are being overwhelmed on not. And currently that is not what we are seeing, both because of a very high vaccination rate and because of milder infections from Omicron. So while we are seeing high case numbers, it doesn't translate into significant pressure on on the hospitals and therefore it is not deemed that COVID right now constitutes what is called within the legal framework. Denmark a critical threat to society and that is actually required before you can have restrictions.

MG: You tweeted that the international reaction to this has been disbelief. Why did you say that given I mean, the fact that the Danish people support this? You can imagine that the rest of the world is raising an eyebrow.

MICHAEL BANG PETERSON: Yes. The reason why I used the the word disbelieve was that that was my reading of the international coverage that people were saying, Well, how can this be? But I think it's important when you look at the Danish numbers to not interpret one indicator out of context, for example, the the very highest case counts, it is really important to look deep into the data about how it is that Omicron doesn't just influence high infection counts, but also influences severe disease, and they are. That data is solidly pointing in the direction that the al-Muqrin wave isn't as bad as previous waves here here in Denmark. And I think what we can see in the data that we have been collecting about the opinions of Danes is that that they have reacted to the falling severity of the disease. They feel that the coronavirus is no longer the societal threat that it once was. So in that sense, the lifting of the restrictions does resonate with what the majority of the Danes.

MG: This has happened before restrictions were attempted to be removed in September, and there was that declaration that COVID was no longer a societal risk. And then the country had to bring back restrictions just a few months later. How is the population reacting to the shifting policies around COVID?

MICHAEL BANG PETERSON: Essentially, the public is supporting that kind of changes in the sense that they support the imposition of restrictions when they believe they are needed. So there was public support for the introduction of of these restrictions. But when they assess that the threat is less than opinion is also favouring lifting those restrictions. So in that sense, you could say that the Danish public is reacting in their sort of adaptive way to the changing circumstances. And that also means that should a new variant emerge than my expectation is that the Danish public will be in support of restrictions again, if it turns out that this variant is a huge threat to the hospital systems.

MG: One of the things that you've pointed out in your research is is that there is a high trust within Denmark, trust in authorities, trust in neighbours, trust in society to protect members of that society. Where is that trust coming from? Do you think

MICHAEL BANG PETERSON: so? Of course, it's a part of the of the historical legacy of Denmark. Over the last 40 years, at least a high trust society has been built up through relatively low corruption, relatively high economic equality. And then it also helps that we are a small, homogenous country as well. And those things create a pretty good background when a crisis emerges. Of course, it doesn't mean that everything is fine just because you have a historical background of trust. It is also important how it is that the government and how the authorities actually manages the crisis and how they communicate during a crisis. And when we look at the data that we have, then there has been a general. Sentiment that the citizens have received clear information and they have continue to have high trust in the health authorities throughout the pandemic, in the face

MG: of that trust, there's polling that shows that something like 28 percent of people in Denmark do have concerns about removing restrictions now. So do you worry that that trust and solidarity you're talking about could be threatened by the concerns that people have? That perhaps now is premature?

MICHAEL BANG PETERSON: I think it's very important to be aware of this potential conflict, and I think it's important that the government and the authorities are also communicating that we need to take those concerns seriously and that each citizen, as an individual need to help those who are vulnerable, who those who are at risk give them room to take extra precautions. My hope is that that this will not turn out to be too much of a divide in Denmark because we can't see from the data that around 80 percent of the Danish population, adult Danish population, they are motivated to take extra precautions when interacting with the elderly, when interacting with high risk groups. So so hopefully this is not something that that will turn into a major debate. But it is, of course, something that is important for the government and the authorities to to pay attention to.

MG: I mean, I guess one of the things the larger context here is that you have the World Health Organisation raising concerns about allowing the unfettered spread of Omicron. The head of the W.H.O. talked about this yesterday in a media briefing, saying that in some ways, you know, more transmission means more death, even if this is not as severe as previous variants of COVID, that the sheer transmissibility of this means that more people will be infected and those immunocompromised, those who are elderly, those who are more vulnerable will be at risk. Why not wait until those concerns are settled before opening up?

MICHAEL BANG PETERSON: So it's uh, it is clear that that there will be more transmission by by opening up. And and it's also important for me to say that that this doesn't doesn't necessarily imply that that other countries should, should open up as well. We have a very high vaccination rate here in Denmark, 61 percent of the entire population have received a booster vaccine, 81 percent of the population have received the first two doses. So that is very high vaccine coverage. And that is, of course, something that has a major influence on the extent to which, the Omicron wave, how bad it is getting here in Denmark. But at the same time, I also think it's important to say that that imposing restrictions does come with with costs. So while you could say that it would be great to perhaps wait a week or week, two weeks or three weeks before lifting restrictions, then that's not free. It does have economic consequences. It does have consequences for the well-being of of people. It does mean that fundamental democratic rights are put on on hold and and and therefore you cannot just say we need to wait a bit until we are absolutely sure you need to be aware that it comes with costs. But there are extremely many trade-offs to be made in a pandemic, and I don't think that there's any one single legitimate strategy about how to navigate those dilemmas, which is what I think is important as a as a political scientist is that there's public understanding and public support for the particular strategy that a country follows.

MG: Professor, good to speak with you and we will be watching what happens in your own nation. Thank you very much.

MICHAEL BANG PETERSON: Thank you. It was a pleasure.

MG: Michael Bang Petersen is a professor of political science at our House University and advises the Danish government on its COVID response. Dr. Zain Chagla has been listening in. He is an infectious disease physician at St. Joseph's Healthcare. Hamilton, also an associate professor at McMaster University, and we've reached him this morning in Mississauga, Ontario. Dr. Chagla, good morning to you.

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Hi, good morning.

MG: What do you make of what's happening in Denmark?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Yeah, I mean, it sounded a bit surreal listening to that conversation. You know, I think there are really important themes that keep coming out there. You know that that concept of trust that we will take care of you and we will impose restrictions when the time comes, we will take them away when the time. Resolves that clarity that people know exactly what's going on, and you know that that weighing of risks and benefits and it really is being done, you know, at a global level here and really being incorporated into those solutions. So, you know, I think there are some important themes there that we do need to consider as we kind of deal with the turbulent weeks and months ahead. And, you know, recognising that Denmark has really emphasised that throughout the pandemic and they have this ability to then make decisions and use that public capital to to to pivot back and forth when the time comes.

MG: Do you think it's premature for Denmark to do this?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: You know, I think there are going to be hospitalisations and how they mitigate them and their health care system is going to be an important part. What happens if, again, ICU cases start rising to the point where they become critical? What happens to the hospitalisations start rising and the critical, you know, if they're willing to be humble and step back? And if the time comes and people accept it, then so be it. You know, I think that is part of the system of living with it. But, you know, I think there are pieces that do need to be monitored there. And, you know, certainly as long as they're monitoring and as long as they can think about how to pivot when the time comes and they have the trust to do it, then so be it in that sense.

MG: You used an interesting phrase in living with it. This is a phrase that's being used increasingly by public health officials across the country. I spoke with Dr. Bonnie Henry from British Columbia just last week, and she used that phrase as well. And it's led to a lot of anger coming from people who say now's not the time. What would happen in Canada if we were to do what Denmark did now, if we were to drop all mandates tomorrow, what do you think would happen?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Yeah. Look, I think we have to really be cognisant of the fact that our health care system is not healthy right now and many of our hospitals through wintertime run at capacity that health care workers are leaving the profession and our ability to scale up without being able to scale down care for others is really a non-starter. And you know, unfortunately, that part is really the Achilles heel of what moves us forward in kind of a completely returned to normal life. Recognising that that's not necessarily the fault of restaurants, bars, gyms and other places that have disproportionately been affected, but it is the reality of the situation that our hospitals cannot handle a 20 percent surge without going through a massive restructuring. And disproportionately affecting routine care. So, you know, I think that is the point in all of this. At the same time, I think you know what we can learn from those Danish authorities is what measures here have had low yield. And I think, you know, people don't like the term live with it. We had modelling from the Ontario science table yesterday suggesting 10 to 30 percent of Ontario's population got COVID over the last two months. So absolutely, we are living with it. And you know, yes, the surge is happening. We have to work through this. But the concept that people have zero cases and the concept of, you know, measures that try to really try to reinforce to zero cases are not particularly beneficial now and again, you know, policies need to be maintained at more global controls of the viral spread. While times are high as compared to, you know, those measures that really discriminate and have individualistic reductions but really have not much global reduction altogether.

MG: There are measures that people point to that might lead us to a place where you could live more comfortably with it. If I could put it that way. One is through booster shots just 37 percent in Canada if I had a booster shot. How do you go about getting more people on for a booster shot?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Yeah, look, there we have a country where 85 to 90 percent of people got two doses, so they were they were a population that was willing to listen, that was willing to trust medical authority. You know, I think there's a lot of partisanship going on around vaccines and it's not helping, you know, lots of people are talking about Band-Aids for three doses. And that, I think is going to push populations further away rather than to the table. And I think you have to use those resources. You have to go back to communities and talk to them about the benefits of getting the third shot to especially those over the age of 50 or those with medical issues, in terms of why this may help reduce your risk of ending up in the hospital, you reduce or reduce your risk of dying. But at the same time, you have to be humble. You know, does a 18 year old need two doses or three doses of a vaccine, particularly if they were that 10 to 30 percent of the population that got infected? And you know, I think we need to focus the resources again on disproportionately affected communities, those who are at highest risk and work towards getting them their doses if the whole point to gain is reducing health care capacity more than anything else.

MG: Part of those resources and you've written about this could be through testing. You wrote a column in the globe and Mail saying that our travel restrictions don't make sense when it comes to Omicron and that resources that are going into testing travellers could be better deployed. How so?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Look, you know, the whole tribal system is a great example of these measures that aim for is zero COVID approach. We know variants will emerge in Canada. The whole world is dealing with variants and again, to be connected to the world needs that we have to be able to allow for travel in a more relatively relaxed manner. We are spending up to $600 million on testing at the border and testing random people at the border. We're not getting turnaround times that are appropriate. We're getting people putting private expenses into testing before they even come. And I think that, you know, it's it's a bad precedent here, right? These are private companies with private contracts and the federal government. They could be very well redeployed into northern and indigenous communities that are facing an outbreak to make sure that they have access to rapid testing. They could be redeployed into long term care to make sure that a long term care outbreak is detected very early, where people literally will die if people are not tested appropriately enough. And we need to stop worrying about what's happening at the border because again, you know that that's not where where the virus is going to change the entire population, recognising that a 10 to 30 percent of the population on our side of the border, albeit COVID, over the last three months. So worrying about a single case of the border versus worrying about who is dying and who's getting sick here is probably more important to focus on who's dying and who's getting sick here and what testing can be due to mitigating that.

MG: Are we talking enough about the trade-offs that the professor mentioned? He said that when you delay that reopening, that there is a cost that that perhaps is not being considered. So are we in this country talking enough about those trade-offs?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Yeah, it's not really the conversation. And again, you know, this may be the segmentation of the fact that the provinces and federal government are aligned differently, that there's different political forces at all levels. But absolutely. I mean, I think again, when we're talking about the sheer numbers that we've dealt with over the last few months and what's happening, we really do have to put things on the table in terms of what their benefits to society are, what their benefits the health care system will be versus the cost, right? Schools are an important example. I think everyone realises their incredible cost to keeping schools closed. And you know, I'm thankful that most provinces pursued getting schools open as aggressively as possible. You know, they're easing policies like masking and working from home, which are probably low yield in terms of, you know, societal disruption, but very high yield in terms of controlling the virus. But absolutely, you know, things like shutting down a restaurant repeatedly throughout the pandemic, you know, is going to have effects. It's going to have effects on service workers. It's going to have effects on those people who put their life savings into these businesses. And I think again, we have to put it on the table to say, are we going to keep picking out health care capacity on restaurants, you know, recognising that they didn't do anything wrong other than operate a business where people's masks have to be down temporarily?

MG: If you're not having that conversation just in the last minute or so, what does that do to the trust that he was speaking about? There's a real sense of trust in Denmark here in Canada, and I mean, there are a bunch of reasons why they're unfolding, but you have these blockades in Ottawa, you have blockades in Alberta. How do you think we're doing when it comes to trust, trust in governments and trust in each other at this point in the pandemic?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: Yeah. Look, we're seeing it play out, right? You know, I think there's a lot that went wrong with the protests, but there is discontent with policy and we do have to recognise that if we're going to navigate through these next few months, if we're really going to say we need the health care system to be scared, we need trust. And really that is putting these things transparently and open out there and getting people rewarded for doing the right thing, for getting their vaccines by not necessarily facing lockdown and social isolation again.

MG: Do you worry about losing that trust? I mean, as somebody who speaks a lot about health care, do you worry personally about that?

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: I mean, I look at the third doses, right? You know, that may be a reflection of trust. And and I think again, you know that it is a policy that will likely save lives. But we lost a lot of trust between pushing. So absolutely, I think we've lost some of that already. And again, if we get a better vaccine, if we get a new therapeutic in the pipeline, getting people engaged, it's going to be harder and harder if we if we've eroded that trust.

MG: Dr. Chagla, good to speak with you. As always, thank you.

DR. ZAIN CHAGLA: All the best.

MG: Dr. Zain Chagla, an infectious disease physician at St. Joseph's Health Care Hamilton, also an associate professor at McMaster University. You're CBC News is next. And then Erin O'Toole's control over the Conservative Party of Canada appears to be hanging by a thread. In six minutes. We'll hear why and where the Tories go from here? I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

CBC TV host Anthony Germain takes us inside the Olympic Village; federal Conservatives vote on Erin O'Toole's leadership

Guests: Anthony Germain, Chris Hall

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, it's game night, Canada, the bandwagon, leaving the station, get on and get ready, Canada vs. El Salvador is tonight a ticket to the World Cup in Qatar still up for grabs and all of a sudden there's a real buzz around men's soccer in this country. More on that in just under 30 minutes. We're also keeping a close eye on the Conservative caucus meeting that may determine Erin O'Toole's future as party leader. The latest in just a moment. But first, a very different Olympics in China.

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MG: The 2008 Beijing Olympics were about many things sports, of course, but there were also issues under way around the opening up of China to the rest of the world.

SOUNDCLIP

Big games coming to China will help China to open up further and to reform better. China has developed greatly. People enjoy more freedom. People, you enjoy more, well, have a lot to say and people said welfare people's economic situations are improving a lot, so everybody can see that. Everybody is happy. People are optimistic about their own future.

MG: That was then. Now, more than a decade later, the Olympics are back in Beijing and things have changed. I was there in China in 2008 covering those games, and while I was there, I met CBCs, then China correspondent and sometimes guest host of this programme, Anthony Germain Anthony is back in Beijing to cover the 2022 Olympics, and he's with me now. Anthony, hello?

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Hello, Matt.

MG: What is it like to be back in China?

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Has it really been 14 years, man?

MG: We're much older now than we were then.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Well, it's only been a few days that I've been here, so getting used to the jetlag and all that, but I've got mixed feelings really mean when you and I met. I left a few years later. So 10 years ago was when I left China. It was a great five year assignment. I made friends and colleagues and really fell in love with the Chinese people, and Chinese culture even learnt a bit of the language. So I was thrilled when I was asked if I want to be part of the CBC news team to be here for these games. But you know, on the flip side, it's a happiness that's mixed with a really deep frustration because there's what I would call the real China and Olympic China. So real China is all that dynamic business people on bikes hauling fridges, seniors doing exercises in park street food, the traffic crowds of people going to work, friends and translators neighbourhoods. And I can't visit any of them. So here in Olympic China, it's like being inside a glass dome and you can see real China. It's just out of reach. It's right there, you can see it, but you just can't be part of it. Because of COVID 19 and the extraordinary measures and restrictions the Chinese have gone to which they justify is as necessary to pull off these games.

MG: So describe the glass dome that you're in, this Olympic bubble that people have been talking about.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Well, it's a big bubble because it covers, you know, these three areas. There's the Beijing location, which is really in for ice hockey, curling, speed skating and north of here. There's a high speed train that'll take you to Yanqing for the sliding sports like bobsled, luge, alpine skiing and then even further north. You've got Zhangjiakou for freestyle skiing, freestyle snowboarding in that. And you've got this athletes village in each location, the main one to Beijing. But the only insight we can gain from what's happening with the athletes is really what they post on social media because they all want to make sure they don't get infected before their events, and they're not really being encouraged to fraternise with athletes from other countries, which is kind of a big part of the Olympics. And so for all of us in this, this 10000 people inside this artificial hived off community, we all wear these big blue credential badges around our necks and the car has got a bar code and some kind of sensor in it, and you scan that on the way into your hotel. And then you scan it as you leave the hotel and then a guy in a booth with extendable rubber glove arms poking out of the booth. He hands you a vial and a swab, and he makes you sick and then you get your throat rubbed. And if you fail to get that done within 24 hours every day, a message gets sent to your team leader the kind of school due to get into trouble. And then after you take the swab, you get on a bus. We're not allowed to go anywhere on foot, and that bus will take you to an enormous media centre or a venue, and you'll walk through a big electronic rectangle. Your picture comes up instantaneously as you walk through. So your whereabouts are known at all times, and that same process happens when you go to any of the venues or back to your hotel. They know exactly where we are all the

MG: time and to come back to that in a moment. How much of this is about the pandemic and what's going on? There's been a spike in COVID cases in recent days. So is this around COVID, do you think?

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Yeah, I mean, the mandatory testing, you know, I just mentioned we've been averaging 30 to 35 cases a day within this strange world, and we can't tell how many those are repeat cases. There are 11 people in hospital, though we're told it's only because they have symptoms. So they're not very serious. Nobody's in ICU. And the Chinese policy is to move potentially contagious participants to the hospitals. And in fairness to the Chinese, you know, here they are. You know, watching, you know, thousands of people come from all over the world and they really don't want to see some kind of superspreader be associated with their 2022 Winter Olympics. But even to the lead up to this, we saw some of the zealousness with which the Chinese were enforcing their their zero COVID strategy leading up to the games they they locked down the city. Tianjin, which you might remember is not too far from Beijing, 14 million people and they tested them all until their negative, even here in Beijing. Not that far from the bubble. There have been neighbourhoods surrounded nobody. Let in nobody let out until the authorities say that everybody can go so with some cases of Omicron detected in the lead up. Twenty five million people forbidden to move at various times. Now there's no anti-vax movement to contend with. This country goes without saying so. This is effective, but sometimes brutal enforcement. It works, or it appears to be working from what the Chinese are telling us. A total of 20 cases in Beijing announced a couple of days ago. The authorities say those are under control, and I suspect, to be fair, you know, they're trying to stop this. And even in this ferocious media controlled state, I think massive outbreaks would be even difficult for the Chinese to conceal. So there's no reason to disbelieve them. But then again, no way to really double check or verify anything.

MG: When we were there in 2008, I remember, I mean, we got to the sort of media village where we were staying and we were kind of fenced in. But on the other side of the gate, there was a restaurant that people could see and we thought, Oh, we'll just go there. And so we just left. We just walked out the door. We went to this new restaurant. You could go, maybe spies were following us around, but I never felt like I couldn't go anywhere. I could travel all over the city. I could talk to whoever I wanted to talk to. You're not able to go out into the city at all.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Uh, nope. No, there's there's wire cages like fencing along every route, there's checkpoints in between every building. I mean, the bird's nest is just a short walk from where we are right now. We're not allowed to walk there. And as you remember, the aquatic centre now the ice cube. It's right there. I mean, we should be able to go, but we can't. And even back in 2008, it wasn't just the city you were free to travel the whole country. Tibet was the the no go zone there. But you know, we had no trouble finding average Chinese people to the interview about just about anything the cost of the games, poverty in China, pollution. And it cut both ways. You could do critical stories and positive stories. You could probe into this Chinese pride that finally they've been given these games, which they've been trying to get that they could take their place amongst, you know, the big countries in the world take their rightful place in the community of nations. And finally, the most populous nation on Earth have been given these games. So it was completely different, you know, and now I think because the Chinese authorities seem to have been hell bent on making these games happen. They were not going to do with the what the Japanese did and delay the games because who knows whether COVID would be here as a pretext for this kind of controls a year from now? So, you know, they kind of got us where they want us.

MG: There's been a lot of concern leading up to the games are on cybersecurity. What are you doing to protect yourself in light of those concerns?

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Well, you know, again, going back to 2008, when you and I were here that the Chinese were still relying on wet where the humans for surveillance, you mentioned people falling following people around and that was true. They had some cameras, but not like they do now. You know, the security experts say they've got between 400 million, maybe half a billion closed circuit TV cameras. So it's become this this surveillance state of Orwellian proportions. So a lot of places, the CBC, a lot of countries made different kinds of, you know, took different kinds of measures. So I've got a burner phone with me that's going to stay here. I didn't bring any of my electronics. I don't think anybody from CBC did,. And different athletes from different countries, the Dutch, the Netherlands, they told their athletes, don't bring a thing. Canada kind of said, we highly recommend you don't bring anything. So there's some serious concern that if you bring a device here, it's there's a chance you might bring something back that you don't want to. So we've been given advice such as, you know, as far as cyber hygiene goes, if a smiling Chinese official hands you a Beijing 2022 U.S. B as a gift, the last thing you want to do is stick it into your computer.

MG: During the 2008 Games and this goes speaks to the surveillance state, but also just the nature of the Chinese government and what it's trying to control. A Chinese Olympic spokesperson said this about journalists asking questions about protests.

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We welcome people coming to China to celebrate the Olympic Games with us to enjoy the festivity with us. Of course, we also welcome suggestions, constructive advices from all the people, all the kind people. And I think a few, a very few people come here to speak, to be critical, to dig into the small details to find fault with that.

MG: These games arrive at a time when the Chinese state has been facing heavy criticism over its actions in Hong Kong and Taiwan and Tibet, the ongoing persecution of the Uyghur people, the holding of Canadian citizens. What do we know about how China will deal with those issues during these games?

ANTHONY GERMAIN: You know, it's a great question, and the issues are so much more serious. I mean, if you're from Canada, the U.S., Britain, Australia or France, you're representing countries that have that have accused China of genocidal practises in northwestern Xinjiang province of Xinjiang. Rather, and athletes from those countries have been warned by their teams and international sporting organisations to be really careful about what they say or do, especially the competitions or, God forbid, the medal podiums. And there is Article 50 in the Olympic Charter that effectively muzzles athletes from talking about human rights, politics, religion. Plus, the athletes are on Chinese soil, and so the laws of this country, the host country, are what would apply. And China's got some pretty nasty laws on the books about inciting insurrection that they have used against their own people and some foreigners. People can also be charged with what the Chinese call unspecified crimes. They use that ruse to imprison AI Weiwei, who you remember the architect who designed the Bird's Nest Stadium. He's in exile now in Portugal, and you consider what arbitrarily happened to Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. There's a chilling effect that's so much different in 2022 than 2008 about seeing anything sensitive or critical. So the Chinese messaging of these games is these are not political. It's all about the athletics bringing the world together, while at the same time showing the world that only their kind of authoritarian political system actually seems capable of pulling off an Olympic Games on schedule during this Omicron phase of the pandemic.

MG: How do the athletes feel in the midst of all of this?

ANTHONY GERMAIN: I think on the COVID question the, you know, they're two years into this pandemic. So I don't think there is upset, but that I think for those athletes who might have political beliefs, they're just trying to say, OK, look, I'm going to take the advice, I'm going to focus on the games. A lot of athletes have spoken, you know, various media opportunities, saying that they are stressed out by the COVID measures and how restrictive everything is, but they're just trying to focus on doing as well as they possibly can. But there's this coldness to these games, mat. And I don't just mean the winter weather. You know, when you look back, didn't you feel like you were welcome here in 2008?

MG: Absolutely. Everybody that I spoke with. I mean, again, it's a strange situation to be in, but everybody that I spoke with, and I spoke with a lot of people, were delighted that I was there, that that millions, millions are certainly hundreds of thousands of tourists came to see those games.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: Yeah, and these these games just aren't that welcoming partially the political context. And in fairness to the Chinese, as I mentioned, they know they don't want these games to turn into some kind of, you know, pandemic disaster. But again, 2008, 2022, they're just not comparable that that electric vibe of 2008, with China wanting to show off its very best side and welcome the world. It's just not here. And there aren't that many signs of anything resembling fun, to be blunt. And you know, it's only just starting. So I'm keeping an open mind, but it's almost as if the Chinese just want to get these games done with and then escort all the foreigners back to the airport as soon as the closing ceremony is done and send us all home where we belong.

MG: I was going to say, have fun, but I don't know if that is the right phrase to offer.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: My fingers crossed.

MG: We'll talk again. Anthony, good to speak with you. Thank you.

ANTHONY GERMAIN: All right, Matt.

MG: The CBC is Anthony Germain in Beijing. We will be speaking with him throughout these Olympic Games.

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MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One, my name is Matt Galloway. Erin O'Toole is fighting to hang on to the reins of his own party today. The federal conservatives are holding a vote on his leadership in a caucus meeting right now, meaning that very shortly the Conservatives could be facing their third leadership contest in six years. The vote comes after an internal election review released last week that looked into how and why the Tories lost the 2021 election. Chris Hall is the CBC's National Affairs Editor and host of the House on CBC Radio. Chris, good morning.

CHRIS HALL: Hey there, Matt.

MG: What do we know about what's going on in this virtual room right now?

CHRIS HALL: Boy, I've become really good at waiting. I can tell you the voting just got underway. It's all virtual, Matt. So both the meeting and the voting is being done by an app. So that part, the voting could go more quickly. But all that being said, the virtual caucus meeting began shortly after 9:00 Eastern. It began with one of the MPs who led the effort to collect the signatures needed to force this leadership. Vote spoke first. He was followed by Erin O'Toole, who talked about what he wanted to say about the future of the party, and then MPs got to have their say, two minutes each. Apparently, more of them spoke than expected because talking earlier to some conservative, they thought the voting would have begun much sooner than now. We know that Erin O'Toole gave his closing remarks, so the question is, will he have enough votes to stay on or will he be removed as leader.

MG: This is the caucus. It's not the party membership broadly, and it's happening in a really public way. Is this unusual that that the the unrest within the party, the unhappiness from some quarters with the leader is so public?

CHRIS HALL: Well, unusual in this country, not necessarily in places like Great Britain. But remember, Andrew Scheer resigned when it was apparent that he really couldn't continue as leader after the twenty nineteen election campaign so far Erin O'Toole. He understood that there were concerns about how he performed during the election in the fall of 2021, concerned that the party didn't make inroads in Ontario, where he, after all, is from, particularly in the Greater Toronto area. And there was anger over Erin O'Toole himself and how we how we went through the campaign about the policy changes he made some of them right in the middle of the campaign. Remember the decision that he wouldn't ban assault style weapons after promising to scrap them, he proposed a price on carbon. When the party membership had opposed it for years, including at its party policy conference in March of 2021, he supported the ban on conversion therapy, knowing many employees were against it. So he saw this coming. But to your point, this is the first time under the Reform Act that we've really had this kind of drama where it's quite possible that a leader may be removed by his own caucus.

MG: What do we know about what he has said in not his defence, but it, but in some ways to hold on to his job?

CHRIS HALL: You know, he warned that the party is facing a time of reckoning that was his language, a choice between what he saw as his vision of a party that better reflects Canada today, when he said that was more organic, that could adjust to the changes in Canada and presented an optimistic picture for the future or a party that he said was, you know, based on anger and negativity and really too far to the right. And these are themes that we're told, he repeated today as he faced off with those detractors inside the caucus.

MG: And is there the sense that this party we've had these conversations on this programme even coming out of of the election result that the party is facing sort of an identity crisis, that it's trying to figure out internally what it is and how it presents that to Canadians.

CHRIS HALL: You know, it's a great question, Matt. You and I have talked about this before. There is a fractiousness. Is that a word doesn't concern? Is party. It is now. You know, we've seen this before. The progressive conservative Reform Party split in the 1990s, mostly based on geography in the West, once in the divisions that emerged and led to a breakaway group under Stockwell Day when he was leader in the early 2000s. Former leader Stephen Harper, former Prime Minister Stephen Harper, held that party together, in part through his force of will. But he also managed to offer something to these factions that existed and still exist within the party. The social conservatives, Quebec nationalists, the people who promote fiscal prudence as the most important virtue of a conservative party. Lower taxes, smaller government, less spending. But to your question, I think the divide is deeper. It may even be irrevocable. It's not that regional split that we saw that led to the creation of the Reform Party. It's really now about what it means to be a conservative. It's a split between populists and the social conservatives, one side a more moderate centrist view of the party. And as one MP suggested to me, and I know we've heard this before. You need to be one conservative to win the leadership. A more conservative conservative, I can put it that way. But to win the the country in an election, you have to present that more moderate face it Erin O'Toole was trying to do.

MG: Coming out of this meeting. I mean, what's what are we expecting? Does a straight majority win or does if Erin O'Toole wants to hang onto his job, does he need to to win more than 50 plus one?

CHRIS HALL: Our listeners? Might remember Joe Clark saying 66 percent of the leadership vote wasn't enough for him to continue, he needed something more than that and ultimately he lost and that led to Brian Mulrooney leader, becoming leader and the party returning to power 50 percent plus one is the rule. But, you know, talking again to conservatives on both sides of the Erin O'Toole camp, that's not enough. He needs something more decisive because otherwise it's not going to be possible to heal the rift that exists inside the party if he loses by 50 percent plus one other word six. Then he's gone.

MG: So he's gone immediately. That's it. Yeah.

CHRIS HALL: Well, there may be some. Look, they're going to choose an interim leader. This is a second part of what the Reform Act requires. He will choose an interim leader later today. The reason it's going to be later today is they have to go to question period and do their duty as parliamentarians and then they'll meet again. So it could be later. Tonight, we'll find out who the interim leader would be should Erin O'Toole not emerge victorious from this vote.

MG: And again, he has said that he would respect the result. He had hoped that those who want to remove him would respect the vote if he loses. Are there any clear frontrunners for his job? People who would be in the frame to take the role of the leader of the party?

CHRIS HALL: Yeah. Let me just focus on who might be the permanent leader as we might do the job on an interim basis. The name we most often hear is Pierre Poilievre, the the finance critic for the party, a member from the Ottawa area who has been out as people will know, speaking in support of the convoy and the protests outside Parliament Hill over vaccine restrictions, COVID restrictions and the like. He has really positioned himself over the last six months as being the voice of the future of the party. And I know he has considerable support amongst the apparatchik, the strategists who work with it. There are other names you hear James Moore, the former B.C. MP and cabinet minister in Stephen Harper's government. Even Jean Charest might be someone who is a more moderate voice that might be willing to to step forward. But really, I think at this stage, it's too early to know who might emerge, but the name we hear most often is pure politics.

MG: What about Doug Ford?

CHRIS HALL: Yeah. Interesting, isn't it? He's in the middle of a campaign or beginning a lead up to the campaign.

MG: Four months away.

CHRIS HALL: Yeah. And honestly, Matt, he is the populist that many people in this party believe would be the next best thing to try and unite all of these factions that I referred to. But you know, he his plan, as I understand it, was always to try and win two provincial elections and then turn his gaze to being a federal party leader. The timing isn't great for him, but look, politicians never rule anything out. But it would be a tough sell, I think, right now. And he's going into a provincial election campaign as a sitting premier.

MG: Just about 30 seconds left. No matter what comes out of this, I mean, the party faces some difficult conversations ahead.

CHRIS HALL: Without question, this is going to be a very difficult riff to heal. Erin O'Toole Should he have enough votes to really make a claim that I can stay on like 70 plus percent of the MPPs? And then there's the actual membership, like what do they feel about how this is all unfolding? It's relatively new to them, to Matt. So yes, there's lots of work ahead, no matter what.

MG: And that's what you're thinking. He would need 70 percent or so to hang on.

CHRIS HALL: Oh, I can't imagine he could stay on with anything less than that.

MG: We will wait for the result to come in. Chris, thank you very much.

CHRIS HALL: OK, Matt.

MG: Chris Hall is the CBC National Affairs Editor, host of the House on CBC Radio One. Again, this cabinet meeting is underway right now. The voting is underway, the latest as it develops and as Chris said, what unfolds over the course of the day? You can find out more right here on CBC Radio one online at cbc.ca and through the CBC News app. Well, coming up after your regional update.

Unidentified: [sc]

[Soccer commentator Cheering]

Big step forward in the quest for Qatar.

MG: Flights from Canada to Doha in November might skyrocket in price if this winning streak continues, and suddenly a trip to the FIFA World Cup for Canada's men's soccer team is looking not only possible but probable. We spoke with 16 year old players at the Vancouver Whitecaps Academy at UBC's National Soccer Development Centre yesterday afternoon, and they, like many of us, are caught up in the dream of seeing Canada's men at the World Cup.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I think it's great, you know, they're putting Canada on the map and you know, for us academy players, it gives all of us hope to see that our country's doing well now.

VOICE 2: They're making us proud. You know, it's the first World Cup we'll be in and like 30 plus years. So yeah, it gives us a good future.

VOICE 3: So they've been really successful. And I think in the World Cup, they'll make it pretty far and I hope they do. The goal at the end of the day is to play professionally and play for Canada and play where I grew up.

VOICE 4: Yeah, I love to represent the Canadian national team. We'll have to do is work hard and practise my strengths and just keep on training and keep the good mindset.

VOICE 5: Fonzo Davies gives me like a big inspiration by his journey, how he went through the rankings like that. Yeah.

VOICE 6: The women are also doing a lot for Canada. You know, they're showing that women's soccer in general is getting a lot better and a lot more recognition.

VOICE 7: A long time ago, likr if you played for Canada, you're in no way like they didn't take you seriously. But now all the players are doing big things and you can like you can see all the players going to Europe now, all the players getting noticed and respected.

VOICE 8: They inspire me, a lot of them being immigrants as well as I shows that any Canadian can do it.

MG: More on the quest for Qatar and the state of women's soccer in Canada. Of course, women. Reigning Olympic champions. That's coming up in 90 seconds. My name is Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stick around.

What World Cup qualification for the men's team could mean for the future of Canadian women's soccer

Guests: Nick Bontis, Diana Matheson, Shireen Ahmed, Karin Marley

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Noise]

Adekugbe smart. Miller could play this one now,Adekugbe in behind. It's up, he's going to take it himself. Adekugbe. A goal for the entire country.

MG: A goal for the entire country, one that put the Canadian men's soccer team one step closer to qualifying for the World Cup for the first time in a very long time. Of course, soccer fans got to watch the national women's team take gold at the Tokyo Olympics last year, and now that the men are on the brink of punching their tickets to the World Cup in Qatar. excitement is reaching a fever pitch and it has inspired these young players nine to 11 year old girls and boys on the Vancouver United plus soccer teams.

SOUNDCLIP

CHILD 1: When I watched the soccer one, like with my family, it's always like super cool how they like kick the ball over the field. And I'm just I'm just, Oh my gosh, I can't even kick that high, but they're really like, strong like and they like they run down the field very, very, very fast. But sometimes they can be a bit dramatic.

CHILD 2: I want the Canadian men's soccer team to go to the Qatar World Cup. I think they will.

CHILD 3: I think that the men's soccer there are very powerful and I think that I just like watching because it gives me inspiration for when I played in the games.

CHILD 4: I want to go to the Canadian men's national team so I can play for Canada.

CHILD 5: Well, a good soccer player has to have good sportsmanship and they have to support their team. And also the fans can help them when they're cheering and everything.

CHILDREN: Go Canada Go!

MG: Coach John Herdman spent seven years with the winning women's team, and now he has brought his magic touch to the men's game.

SOUNDCLIP

Speaker 3: People here have always had to wear an Italian shirt or a Serbian shirt, a Greek shirt. They can put them down. That's what we want them to do and put on their Canadian jersey. Now, be proud of us as a football country.

MG: Canada, a football country. Nick Bontis is the President of Canada Soccer. He's in Hamilton, Ontario. Nick, good morning.

NICK BONTIS: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well in Canada now, a football or a soccer country.

NICK BONTIS: I think we were a football country many decades ago and that we just didn't know it yet. Obviously, a performance on the field matters. You know, we're we're a country of immigrants and they bring their passion of football to this country. But it's the first time in history, unprecedented, that the women and the men are now globally recognised. And I think that's the difference.

MG: You were in Hamilton on Sunday for that match. I was watching on television and shouting along with many others. What was it like? I mean, you heard the crowd roaring towards the end of the match, but all the way through. What was it like being there in person?

NICK BONTIS: You know, man, it was nuts. I mean, obviously, as a Hamiltonian, I was proud that, you know, the fans came to Hamilton, gave a great show. It started right from the beginning. You know, we had red smoke, white smoke streamers, balloons. You know, when when the Americans came off the bus, you know, our fans were yelling at them and when the Canadians came off the bus, there was a hero's welcome. So before the game even started, the game horsemanship started. And then absolutely, you know, if you were watching on TV, even though we were restricted to 50 percent capacity because of COVID, it looked like it was a full stadium. It looked like the fans were, you know, at full capacity. Flags were waving, people were cheering. You know, I've been to a lot of soccer games in Canada, man, and the vibe was unbelievable. And of course, the action on the pitch, you couldn't have scripted a better drama, I mean, to score in the 95th minute the way we did. And then, of course, everybody just went ballistic right after and everybody went home happy.

MG: You talked about international recognition. How much does that matter for the men's team, but also for the women's team as Olympic champions that that people around the world get how good the sides are coming out of this country?

NICK BONTIS: You know, it matters greatly. Obviously, the women had a head start on the men in this regard with the three Olympics and of course, the most recent Gold Medal on on, you know, one of the largest international stages. You know, many Canadians were, you know, were riveted. You know, that early day and in August, when the women brought home the gold, there was another dramatic victory for us. And then on the men's side, you know that I'm a soccer fan. I'm a player. I've been playing since I was a little kid. But I'm also an immigrant. My parents were born in Greece. My name is Nick. You probably guessed that. So, you know, I grew up, you know, fighting with my relatives back in Greece saying, Yeah, you know, we're a country as well that loves its soccer in Greece. Laughing, saying, you know, guys don't play soccer. You guys are hockey players, right? So now we have an opportunity, as you said, that we're one step away on the cusp of of entering the Qatar 22 World Cup and countries like Greece and Italy and Portugal might not actually be in Qatar. So that's an amazing feat from an international perspective.

MG: As you mentioned, the women had a head start, and so many of us were watching that gold medal game. It was incredible. Canada does not have a professional league for women. They cannot play professionally in this country. Why is that?

NICK BONTIS: You know what, they can play professionally. We don't have a league or clubs in this country, and what we do need to do is actually attract the type of investment that will allow us. It's our number one element in our strategic plan for Canada soccer. It's very, very important and objective, not for me personally, but for our whole board that we work towards that.

MG: Why isn't it in place now? I mean, the top 30 countries have have women's soccer leagues. This is the year with the defending Olympic champions we have. The women have been out in front for a long, long time. Why isn't there a league already

NICK BONTIS: so that the real reason is that Canada Soccer does not operate leagues or clubs, they are invested by private investors, and we have yet to seek and attract private investors to fund professional women's soccer. I'll give you an example. Larry Tanenbaum, you know, private investor, invested in having Toronto FC in the MLS. You know, Bob Young, a private investor, invested money to have Forge FC in the EPL. So that's what we're doing right now. That's the process that has to take place. With regards to the launch of our men's domestic professional league that took many years, it's not something that happens easily, but we're committed to doing the same on the women's side. We have to do the same on the inside. There is a variety of steps that have to take place, Matt. You know, you got to talk to the fans and make sure the fans want a Women's Pro League, and I'm sure they do. Leagues do not survive with. Out, fans, we we have to get counsel from a women's national team coach, Bev Pressman, and we've done that, you know, and we've heard from a variety of different groups, two private groups for the domestic league, three private groups for an NWSL franchise. So we're moving forward ahead with lots of action and we plan at Canada soccer to also appoint a head of women's professional soccer. It's a very, very important position because it is a symbolic position where we can provide resources to make sure that it's a strategic priority actually gets executed. So in addition to the foundation that we need from private investors, Matt, we also need support from FIFA, from CONCACAF, you know, from our member associations. Because Canada soccer, frankly, is a conduit when when funding comes from places like FIFA, we will then funnel that into a women's professional league.

MG: Just the last point on this, the reality for a lot of supporters of women's soccer is they feel as though the women who have been long at front and this the men are not catching up. You can't even buy a jersey for the defending Olympic champion women's soccer team through Canada Soccer. You go to the website and it's it's all the men's jerseys. If there's a women's shirt, it's got a player of a man on the back of it. Why is that?

NICK BONTIS: Right. So, you know, I don't want to get into the details of supply chain management, and I don't want to make excuses for you, Matt. It's disheartening for me that we can't have our fans purchase jerseys, especially at a time when the women's and men's programmes is at its highest probability. But the issues remain with supply chain and, you know, the ordering of these jerseys by our suppliers, you know, these things happen 12 months in advance and we are hoping to rectify that problem. We're well aware of that programme. But working with a new international vendor, it's been a challenge. So I agree with you there.

MG: Just last point on this. I mean, we'll talk more about this in just a moment in another conversation. But do you see kind of, you know, a rising tide floating all boats, the success, we know the success of the women's team, but that the success of the men's team could help raise those expectations for Canada, soccer for women, the women's programme as well.

NICK BONTIS: I think the question you're asking is do they impact and reinforce one another? And if that's the case, yeah, I do believe they do that. You know, there's a a halo effect, not only in terms of the men influencing, you know, the stature of the women and vice versa. But I think that halo effect also occurs at the individual level of analysis, Matt. So you know, when Christine Sinclair becomes recognised as one of the top players in FIFA in the world that influences the popularity on the men's side and similarly, as Alphonso Davies now has established himself. And I think that's what was missing, perhaps in previous generations. In addition to, you know, having the team perform well on the field, you know, a lot of young players really aspire to superstars, you know, that's what they aspire to in hockey. That's what they aspire to in basketball. And I think we have that now in the men's and the women's side.

MG: It is really an amazing moment. And of course, we'll all be watching tonight to see what happens with the men and crossing your fingers for Qatar in the fall. Nicl, good to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you. Nick Bontis, President of Canada Soccer. Our next two guests certainly will be watching tonight's match against El Salvador. First, though, they're here to weigh in on what this moment means for Canadian soccer, for the men's and the women's teams. Shireen Ahmed, Senior Contributor with CBC Sports and host of the Burn It All Down podcast. Diana Matheson, veteran Team Canada soccer player Of course, she's a two time Olympic medallist as well. Good morning to you both.

SHIREEN AHMED: Morning.

MG: Shireen, how would you describe this moment in Canadian soccer?

SHIREEN AHMED: Riveting. Unprecedented. I mean, in my lifetime, I didn't frankly expect to be as excited as the benzos have been about the women. So this is wonderful.

MG: Diana, what about for you? What does this moment mean? Obviously, you know, the women have been long out in front. You feel like the men are just finally catching up with the success of the women's team.

DIANA MATHESON: Well, I don't know. It's it's incredible, isn't it? I think all the fans that have been following the men's team for years hoped this moment would come. And I don't think even with John going there, we had such high hopes, but I didn't think. I don't think we thought it would come this quickly. So just enjoying it because those those men are fun to watch right now.

MG: OK, John is John Herdman. And he was, of course, before the coach of the men's team was at the helm of the women's national team. What is he like as a coach?

DIANA MATHESON: He's if people ask me who the best coach and leader in my career was, it's John Herdman hands down. He's a fantastic boss. If he was, you know, your manager in accounting, you would love to work for this man. He's the hardest worker there is. He's a meticulous planner. He has no ego, so he surrounds himself with experts. And then he creates an environment that puts importance on growth and always learning and challenging each other. And it puts importance on the team culture and creating an environment where you can be safe for their team-mates, where you can try things and not be afraid to fail. And then on top of that, the man is inspiring and he can put together a vision for a team which the team buys into. And he's told these men, they can they can change forever soccer in Canada, and you can see they care about it and they've bought in and honestly, they've already succeeded in that and they should be so proud.

MG: He faced a lot of heat when he moved from the women's team to the men's team.

DIANA MATHESON: Yeah, he he sure did, and he's talked pretty candidly about that. And these are his words, the misogyny that came out in Canada around that and the disbelief that someone from women's football could deign to coach men. And I think I love that part of the story. I don't think this has really happened before someone going from women's football to men's football with this incredible success like that. The Canadian men are the top not just of Canada, but I'm part of a UEFA European masters and all the guys in Europe are talking about Canada, like they're the talk of the town and it's it's this guy on a women's football that's making it happen.

MG: Shireen, you are a long and I know this because you and I have spoken about this a lot in past, a long time follower of this team. What's different now when it comes to men's soccer in this country?

SHIREEN AHMED: I think, you know, the scaffold of Diana just said the way that the team has gelled and the chemistry, but what they're bringing to the pitch is a passion and a joy. They make everybody want to go jump into a snowbank, quite frankly. And there is just an electricity and an excitement and a reinvigoration into men's soccer. And we've definitely always got it from the women. And but to see it come and manifest this way is incredibly powerful. And you know, this is a testament to the coaches, the coaching staff and definitely the fans. I mean, this is this is really, really fun. But again, I just want to bring us back to the fact that the women did do it first and that we've had high expectations of results in Canada because of the women.

MG: Nick Bontis made the point that we've always been a soccer nation because we're a nation of immigrants and people come from around the world where soccer is a dominant sport and bring that here and now is the sense that now that that's finally clicked, now that's finally landed.

SHIREEN AHMED: Well, I mean, I think that in some ways, Canada does more countries like Belgium or Switzerland or France, where, you know, there's the vast majority of their starting line up in the roster that are foreign born and with Canada, that would be eight and then John Herdman himself. So I think that's an interesting point and particularly in this current political climate where there's, you know, rampant xenophobia everywhere that you know, newcomers to Canada and, you know, embolden the sport experience. And this is something that I think we need. We need to look at and be very, you know, careful when we talk about and I'm not trying to buy into the good immigrant narrative because I don't believe in that. But I think there's something to be said about how sport is actually a vehicle of empowerment to communities, and it can genuinely, genuinely bring goodness to places and expand those experiences for marginalised and racialized communities.

MG: Diana Matheson How do you think the success of the men's team could affect the women's team in Canada? There is. There are structural differences in terms that we just heard about this in terms of how the teams are funded in terms of support, that's there. Does the success of one impact the success of the other?

DIANA MATHESON: Yes, absolutely. And John Herdman spoken publicly about that, too. Part of the reason he went to the men's programme is that he coached the women's team for seven years of his success and his budget hadn't changed. I think the budget is probably smaller now than it was 10 years ago for the women's programme. There are structural inequities, like you said between men in women's football and the men doing well means we get to access the Bank of FIFA. You know, the numbers are incredible when the women qualify for a World Cup. FIFA pays Canada soccer just under 400000. If the women win a World Cup, they get about two million when the men qualify for the World Cup. Canada soccer gets $10 million from FIFA. And then with 2026 coming around the corner, the World Cup coming to Canada, there's going to be another $10 million there, plus any other money that's flowing into this country for for that event, the world's biggest event. So yes, what the MEN is doing is not just incredible because it's inspiring players across this country that they can play in a World Cup on the biggest stage that they can be one of the world's best players like Alphonso Davies and plan the world's best clubs. They are changing the game because they're bringing money into the sport system in Canada, and I know, Nick said. I mean, you asked him about the Women's League and he said investment investments, the biggest problem. No, it's not. There's nowhere for anyone to invest. I have no doubt Canadian businesses will step up and invest in women's sports if there's somewhere to put it. There's going to be $20 million plus coming from FIFA over the next four or five years. What it needs is is real action from Canada soccer to start planning, you can start to build before you have a plan. And if we look around the world to see how women's leagues have been built, it's really simple. The federation makes it a priority. They start a women's soccer committee with experts. From women's sport, from business, from sport in your country, and they make a women's soccer strategic plan that involves building a league and and the women have been asking that for two years now. So hopefully we see that soon and then we can start to put the money that's going to be coming into this country back into the women's game because as we've been saying, they they laid the foundation.

MG: What do you feel? I must take it for granted. I mean, the jersey thing is a small thing, but it's not a small thing you can't go and buy. If you're if you are a fan of Diana Matheson, you can't buy a Diana Matheson jersey. I can't buy a Christine Sinclair jersey on the Soccer Canada website. Does that? Does that matter? You were going to say something, sherry.

SHIREEN AHMED: Yeah, this isn't about supply chain management. I mean, the partnering with the largest brand in the world, quite frankly, like Nike, this isn't about that. This is a priority. You know, Nick talked about strategic plan. Where is it? The women won gold six months ago. Where is the Women's Committee strategic plan? I'd like to see it. I want to see what moves the Canada soccer has actually made on this front. It's not enough that the fans are clamouring, Diana said it best people are willing to do business with fans like literally take my money. I couldn't buy a lobby jersey and she's retired now. Christine Sinclair is the most widely recognised women's soccer player in the world, with most international goals from FIFA, and we can't buy her jersey. We can buy a girls jersey with Alphonso Davies on it, but we can't buy a jersey with [unintelligible] on it. Like, you know, it's unacceptable to me at this point. There's a lot of question.

MG: Diana, what are the questions that you have?

DIANA MATHESON: Yeah. I mean, I really agree that the women have been pointing out the problems with the jersey situation for two years so predates COVID and the item you pointed out is they've got the men's names on the back of the women's shirts on the website, which is clearly not a supply chain issue. It's yeah, I think when I spoke about John Herdman, one of the traits I named was no ego. You bring in the best and it helps you get to where you got to be. And I think Nick can learn from that and bring in the best and let's start building a plan and going forward together.

MG: Do you see I mean, a lot of this is about inspiration. And so we're at the beginning of this. We heard from young kids who talked about what this moment means for them as somebody who has been on those biggest stages on the big fields, Diana. What's the message to those young kids about what this moment means for for men and women, for girls and boys who are playing the sport?

DIANA MATHESON: I think the future is so bright, it's unbelievable. I'm inspired by this men's team and by John, and I'm continually inspired by our women. I think I think with this timing and Qatar coming and the 2026 world coming, I think this is a moment where we're not going to look back. And Canada is now truly, in the last 10 years, has become a soccer nation. And I think with the money going to flow into this country and with some planning and the development of a women's league, we can really cement ourselves. And like I said, the the men are inspiring everyone right now. I mean, the fans, the Voyagers that have been following the national teams for decades are we're all in heaven right now enjoying it. On the women's side, I think the truth is the women can't make, you know, young girls across this country dream any bigger than they've been doing three podiums a gold medal. There's no point in making them dream anymore unless we're going to build somewhere for them to work. There's no jobs for them. You know, everyone who's played for the national team on the women's side has to leave the country to find work, and we need to change that for the next generation. If we're going to keep making them dream, we gotta give them somewhere to play.

MG: Shereen just met at a time, but Canada wins tonight, do you think?

SHIREEN AHMED: I mean, yes. And what I'm looking for, that's absolutely what I want to see is the names like Matheson, Sinclair, you know, Lawrence. These are household Canadian names that we see Lara, David Hutchinson as as an employee and as a household name. So I can't wait.

MG: It's a good moment to be talking about this sport. I'm glad to talk to you both about it this morning. Thank you very much.

SHIREEN AHMED: Thanks.

MG: Thank you. Shireen Ahmed, senior contributor with CBC Sports, host of the Burn It All Down podcast. Diana Matheson, veteran Team Canada soccer player, two time Olympic medallist. Tonight's match in El Salvador is at 9:00 p.m. Eastern.

[Music]

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. Last week on this programme, we spoke about a new draught proposal for federal long term care standards. The subject, as you can imagine, is close to many Canadians hearts after two years of a pandemic that has exposed serious issues with elder care in this country. Many of you wrote to us to weigh in about it, and so senior producer Karin Marley is here to read some of your mail. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning, Matt. We heard from so many listeners who either have or had family members in the long term care system. The first one is from Claudia Media in Powell River, B.C., she wrote: My mother died after a week in a palliative state about six months into the pandemic. She used to work as a long term care aide in a few facilities in the 1990s, and she spoke to me then about many of the issues that the proposal identified this week the need for more staff, more funding, more supports for home care, more activities, more time, more attention, more autonomy. It's so important to recognise that families and friends are critical for folks in long term care without us and without proper staff and funding. Residents are often neglected and not given the quality of life they so deserve.

MG: There were also plenty of notes from people who were not on board with the idea of fixing the system as it exists today. Salfatore Amenta, in Stouffsville, Ontario, says the current system for long term care cannot be fixed. The problem is our institutional blinkers. They prevent us from seeing that there are other, more humane alternatives and humane approaches available being successfully used by more progressive countries real homes in the community. Long term care needs to be defunded so that resources can be directed to home care and alternative small home settings. The Golden Girls figured this out decades ago. Shout out to Betty White. She knew this way back when.

KARIN MARLEY: Indeed, Faye Fergusson told us she's worried about what her own care might look like in the future. As an older person, the one thing that has terrified me is that I might have to go into one of these institutions. They are in no way a home away from home. They do not allow for the fact that each person is an individual that we do not all get up at the same time that we do not all do the same things at the same time every day. I hope this will have changed by the time I might need one. It is being done in other countries. Now is the time for Canada to get up to date.

MG: We also received a lot of feedback on our series work in progress. I was speaking with people who have long COVID. About returning to work while coping with their symptoms. Several long COVID sufferers wrote to us with their experiences. Letha Henry is a grade one and two teacher who told us she's been off work since November of 2020, and she writes, I love my job. It wasn't until I was separated from it that I realised how much of my identity is intertwined with my work. I know that this wasn't healthy, but so much of my self-worth was linked with my ability to do my job well. About a month ago, after a series of good days, I asked my doctor if he thought I might be finally ready to return. He shook his head. He said that employers require consistency, and my relapses are so unpredictable that I would not be able to provide that consistency right now. I have an eight year old son who is meant to be in my class this year. For months, he kept asking me when I'm coming back. When I stopped answering soon, he also altered his expectations. He's learning like I am. But when you can't plan for the future, all you have is the present moment.

KARIN MARLEY: Gerry Weber is in Conestoga, Ontario. He's another long COVID patient. And he says it's comforting to hear that long COVID is becoming more recognised as a real condition and not just seen as something in my head. I was healthy and very active. With long COVID, I've had to scale back my work to one quarter time. I'm 56 and now starting to wonder if I'll ever get back to full capacity or if my career pursuits are now over.

MG: And this is from Charles Jonah in Gatineau. I have done phone work for many years, but I have a very limited ability to talk and breathe at this point. My employer has been great saying if I recover, I can work, but not until then. But my life has forever changed. I can't even walk my pug around the block. The stress and weight is a lot. My EI has run out at 15 weeks again, and none of the Sciarra COVID supports are available anymore. Luckily, my doctors in Ottawa have been over the Moon. Awesome in support. To some of your letters to us, Karin. Thank you very much for helping us sift through the mailbag.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: And thanks to everybody who wrote in. You can comment on anything you hear on the programme. Get in touch. We read all of your mail and some of those letters as you heard and up on the radio. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca or reach us on Twitter @The CurrentCBC That's The Current for this Wednesday. Coming up next on CBC Radio one, it's Q all week long, they are running a series called Shelter from the Storm. Covering Climate Change and the Arts. And This Morning, Tom Power will speak with comedians Robbie Williams and Matt winning about trying to find the funny side of an environmental crisis. Coming up in just a moment on CBC Radio one, I'm Matt Galloway thanks for listening to The Current. Take good care and we will see you tomorrow.

The Current Transcript for February 2, 2022

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