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The Current Transcript for February 24, 2017

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

SEIDU MOHAMMED: The wind was blowing and all my eyes was frozen and I can’t see anything and it was very cold, very very cold there. And we don't know what to do.

LAURA LYNCH: Seidu Mohammed was slowly freezing to death. Already his hands were useless. He was essentially blind. His friend Razak Iyal wanted to hold his hand but couldn't. His fingers too were frozen. Today we will hear in detail for the first time the desperate journey that brought these two Ghanaian men to a frozen field in Manitoba and thrust them into the centre of a national debate about what to do with asylum seekers who are crossing into Canada from the United States in increasing numbers. And later..

SOUNDCLIP

The majority of what's called abuse, harassment and trolling is ridicule, is criticism, sometimes it’s strong criticism — but that's what the internet's for.

LL: Milo Yiannopoulos made his name as a self-labeled troll on Twitter until he was banned from it for his racist misogynist comments. That didn't stop him from becoming a rising star of the so-called alt-right until his own words brought them crashing down again. What does Yiannopoulos’ popularity say about the conservative movement in the United States, and about those who choose to troll? We'll look at that. Before that though, we've saved the biggest issue of the week for last.

SOUNDCLIP

When you order pizza, you want cheesy savoury goodness. So my question is why do people think it's acceptable to put fruit on pizza?

LL: Alright, the challenge has been set. Pineapple on pizza became something of a diplomatic incident this week when the president of Iceland detailed his distaste for mixing Hawaiian fruit with Italian tradition. Place your orders now, because we're going to serve up a debate about pizza protocol. Extra-large, topped with lots of opinions. I'm Laura Lynch in Vancouver and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

Trek to Canada worth life-changing frostbite, refugees say

Guests: Seidu Mohammed, Razak Iyal

[Music: Theme]

LAURA LYNCH: December 24th, 2016 was a life-changing day for 24-year-old Seidu Mohammed and 35-year-old Razak Iyal. The two Ghanaian men made international headlines when their walk into Manitoba from the US almost cost them their lives. The number of asylum seekers crossing into Canada keeps climbing. This year alone, more than 100 people have crossed through snowy fields near Emerson, Manitoba to make a claim. The crossing is freezing and potentially deadly. Something Seidu Mohammed and Razak Iyal know all too well. Severe frostbite left doctors no choice but to amputate all of say Seidu’s fingers and all but Razak’s thumbs. They spoke with me from the hospital in Winnipeg. This is the story of their harrowing journey, their recovery, and it all begins with what drove them from their home country in the first place. For Seidu Mohammed, a well-known soccer player in Ghana, it started with threats about his sexual orientation.

[Music: ominous electronic undertones]

SEIDU MOHAMMED: My manager came and saw me with someone and, you know, he get mad, he start calling me names. Wanted to, you know, he say he will end my career, threaten me, and say he will tell the Ghana community for what I did, from my Muslim community to my father. [unintelligible] the Ghanian don’t like the LGBTQ or the gay people in our country. They treat them very bad. I'm very scared.

RAZAK IYAL: I left Ghana because of safety of my life, because some people they wanted to kill me. And there's a lot of corruption and there is, they don't help the people who are in need. And if you don't have money you don't have justice. I left my wife and my mom back home, so I'm thinking about them.

LL: Razak, you decided to leave Ghana, tell me how you got to the United States?

RAZAK IYAL: I left Ghana to Brazil. That's when I realized that wow, nobody speak English here. So I decided to go to the United States because I know it's an English speaking country and a lot of people understand me more. I left Brazil to Ecuador. We took some boats and some buses before we got to Costa Rica, from Panama to Costa Rica. You know, so from there also we were robbed there and beaten. And all our belongings, our money and everything was gone. I came and reached Mexico, and that's where I was robbed. My bag, my luggage, I have everything. I lost my everything, even my passport. And I lost everything over there. From Costa Rica, went to Guatemala, from Guatemala to Honduras, from Honduras to Nicaragua, from Nicaragua to Mexico. From there, we took a bus and the bus take like two and half days and we reach a place, a city called Tijuana. That's where I crossed through, to the San Diego. They took us to a small detention centre. We slept there for a week. So and they told us we are going to transfer you guys to Arizona. They start bringing the handcuff and the chains. So that's where I go crazy. I say wow, what is going on here? I don't understand this. I came here for protection. I came here for asylum and you are chanting me like a criminal? And they say you better shut up. I don't want you, I don't want you to open your mouth.

LL: Were you denied asylum in the United States?

RAZAK IYAL: Yeah, I was there in asylum in the United States because I don't have somebody to support me. I don't have a lawyer. I can’t prove my case because I don't have access to internet and I don't have a telephone because I don't have money to call long distance calls. Because I have to call back home to send me some of the documents that I need to prove my case. And that's why I lost my case.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: They denied me for the working permit me for the first time. So I waited again for three months and I applied again, and they denied me also. So I was frustrated and I told my friend that I can't stay, I can't be in this country anymore because I'm frustrated and I don't know what to do.

RAZAK IYAL: After the two years, they released me on deportation because I lost my case and they're trying to find my document to send me back to my country. I didn't make any move to go to Canada until the immigration start knocking on my door.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: Well, I was afraid to get deported and I decided to run from that country because of the deportation that I'm on. Because when she denied me, she put me on deportation, it means I have to go back to my country. So I decided to run from there and come to this country.

RAZAK IYAL: Last year on November, they left a note to my uncle because I was living with my uncle. They wanted to take me back to Ghana, and I don't want to go back to Ghana because I know what is going to happen to me when I go back to Ghana. That’s why I decided that no, I have to find my way, I have to make my move coming to Canada.

[Music: ominous electronic undertones]

REPORTER: Here in Canada, dozens of refugees have been braving brutal winter prairie conditions to walk across the border into this country. They're seeking sanctuary in small town of Emerson, Manitoba.

RAZAK IYAL: I call one of my friends who live in New York with me and I asked them, and both of them say oh, we know the Somalis. They have a community in Minneapolis. If you go to Minneapolis, you can find the way to Canada.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: I was in Minneapolis when I met this, my friend, Razak.

RAZAK IYAL: That’s where I met Seidu, at a Greyhound station in Minneapolis.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: We are the only blacks there when he got there.

RAZAK IYAL: He greet me and he ask me where are you from? I told him I'm from Ghana. And he said oh, I'm also from Ghana.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: And I asked him where is he going? He said he's going to Canada, then I said I also going to the same, it’s like coincidence. So we all took that journey together.

REPORTER: In Emerson, Manitoba, local reeve Greg Jansen is standing just north of an abandoned border crossing.

GREG JANSEN: How desperate are these people?

REPORTER: In recent months, more than 400 people have snuck across the border. While technically..

RAZAK IYAL: So we came out from the Greyhound station. We are standing in front of the street and that's where we met a black car come and stand in front of us, asking us where are you guys going? And we told him that we are going to the border. And he said oh, that's Grand Forks, I can take you guys there, but each one of you have to pay like 200 bucks. And we agree, we say no, no problem.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: We sat in the car and we are going in 15, 20 minutes and he stopped. He said this Canada, we should go. And we too, we don’t know the border between Canada and United States, this our first time.

REPORTER: But Emerson’s used to a few cases a year, not hundreds.

GREG JANSEN: It's getting a little sketchy sometimes. We haven't had any major incidents yet, but I think it’ll come.

REPORTER: Over the weekend, 22 people, including some children, crossed in the dark and bitter cold.

RAZAK IYAL: That’s why we start walking, we walk in the middle of the night. We walk over there until we came reach where the border is in. That’s where we start feeling the cold.

[Music: hollow ambient sounds]

RAZAK IYAL: The cold is very crazy and the winds is blowing too, because it's on the field, nobody's there and it's all covered by the snow. So when we step in in the snow, it go beyond our waists.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: We see a lot of snow, and it was very cold, very very cold there. And when it comes to the things that we wear, it wasn’t enough. And we don’t know what to do.

RAZAK IYAL: So that's where the winds start blowing and the winds just take over our gloves and hats that we wearing. So that’s where we start thinking that oh, it’s very crazy. And we start feeling our hands start freezing.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: Yeah, Razak wanted to give up because of the cold. We can't do it because I told Razak that he have to let us make an effort, because we have to do this because of our life, which is at stake. And we are very scared and very afraid. So I told Razak, and Razak said OK let's go. So we took off from there.

RAZAK IYAL: Yeah, I remember when we were walking, Seidu cannot see. He decided that I should go and leave him, and I say no I cannot go and leave you. We have to go, we have to make it. I can't hold his hand, because my hands is frozen, so I can’t hold his hand.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: Razak also gloves got off. The wind was blowing and all my eyes was frozen and I can’t see anything.

RAZAK IYAL: I cannot do anything to him, but I'm trying to help him.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: I was taking the steps of Razak when we were walking, because I don't see anything, because if you walk and I can hear his footsteps, I have to call him, for him to stand and wait for me, for me to get to his place before we can also walk again.

RAZAK IYAL: After we cross into Canada, we don't know where the immigrations are, so we don't know where to go. We just, we start walking towards the highway. That's where we decided that we have to stand at one place to look for protection, to look for somebody who can save us.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: There were people driving trucks, if you waved them, they don't want to stand, they don't want to stop and help us because, I don't blame them, because they don't know who we are.

RAZAK IYAL: After we stand there for hours, nobody is willing to stop. That's where all of us, we say hey, let’s give up.

LL: When you say let's give up. What were you thinking? Were you thinking you would just lie down and die?

RAZAK IYAL: Yeah, that's what we’re thinking. Because at that time, we start feeling our chests, Seidu starts screaming that his chest is pain him, and I can’t help him, I can't do anything, because I wish I can help him on that time, but I can’t.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: And we wanted to give up in that snow, and I told Razak that I can’t, I have to stop here, because everything that happened here is God who let it happen, so we give everything to God, because we wanted to give up.

RAZAK IYAL: We were standing there for almost like seven hours, until a truck driver stop and pick us on the road. When I saw him, I start screaming oh God, we thank you God for saving our life. I ran towards his truck, I told him that help help. I can't say anything, I told him help help. So he came out from his truck and Seidu start working slowly and he came there. That's where he helps Seidu to climb the truck and he goes in and he let Seidu lie on his bed. He have bed on the back of his seat, so he makes Seidu lie on his bed and I was sitting on the chair.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: And he started calling the 911 and the ambulance, because at that moment when we were in his car, I was feeling like something is burning in me because I can't see nothing. My arms are burning, my feet is burning, my ears is burning, because I was feeling like something is burning in me. And even he gave me a water, I can’t drink the water because I was crying in this car. We were crying and nobody feel like it’s feeling better when he took us, because our arms are frozen, my ears also got frostbite and I can’t also see nothing.

RAZAK IYAL: I feel happy and I feel joy that I know we're going to make it.

REPORTER: Two refugees from Ghana remain in a Winnipeg hospital tonight, after they almost froze to death sneaking into Canada from the United States. They were found wandering in the bitter cold after they walked across the border near the Emerson crossing.

LL: Razak, how badly were you injured?

RAZAK IYAL: It's just only my fingers and my part of my ears. But it's very good now because my ears was healed and I'm waiting for my hands to get better. But Seidu, it's very crazy, because he lost all his fingers.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: All my ten fingers I lost it. And I even frostbite on my ears, but it's not that, but they cut a little bit of it. And my feet, I'm lucky that my feet also it's ok. But I'm very well known in my country as a soccer player. So I don't want to lose my toe. Even yesterday, my doctor said he want to move my toe to my finger and I said no I can't do that. No, I can’t do that because I will even feel more pain, even if it heals, because I can’t even run if they took my toe. And I don’t want them to touch my toe at all.

RAZAK IYAL: For me, I left with one finger, that finger helps me a lot. I don't need any assistance to brush my teeth, I do it by myself. But sometimes when I'm going to wear my clothes, I have to get somebody who can help me a little bit. But for Seidu, he need more assistance than me because he don't have any finger that he can do any activity with it, because he have to get someone to do everything for him.

LL: Razak, I'm wondering after everything that you have sacrificed. After leaving your wife behind, after traveling all the way up from Brazil and then losing so much. Was it worth it?

RAZAK IYAL: I didn't regret the moves that I made. I know this thing happened to me and I'm very happy that I'm here in Canada. And I know the people of Canada, most of the people here they are trying to help us. We are very happy that we are here.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: I say, I would say it's worth it because going back to my country, I'm going to lose my life there, I'm going to lose my life there. So I don't want to go back. So I would say that it's worth it because even though we didn’t pray for it, but it has happened. So it’s worth it to lose my fingers to be in Canada than to go back to my country to murdered.

RAZAK IYAL: For me, I'm a businessman, so I hope if everything go well with me, I can try and continue with my business. I have my own shop that I was selling electronic items like a TVs, fridge, air conditioners. And I'm still have hope that, that I'll continue doing my business. Even without my fingers.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: Right now I'm seeing that I'm in a country that's they like people and also care about people, not look like the United States. They care about people. They respect us when we came here and they did everything that they can for us to survive.

LL: Razak, your journey was obviously risky, desperate, but do you understand why some people might say that you have taken advantage of a loophole in the law by sneaking into Canada?

RAZAK IYAL: I wish. I don't want anybody to be in this situation. But if you being in my shoe or if you are in doubt situation when I am, you going to do the same thing. And we know we made a mistake, but we don't want to go back and get killed. So I know the Canadian people, they forgive us and I don't wish anybody to do the mistake that we made. I know a lot of people were coming through the way that we came but everybody is afraid of losing his life.

LL: Razak, I wish you a continued recovery from your injuries. Thank you very much for speaking with me.

RAZAK IYAL: Thank you so much. I'm thanking the people of Canada too. They have a good heart and we are happy that we are here.

SEIDU MOHAMMED: So all I would say is that God has blessed this country with good people, and it will continue to bless this country. Because this country, I know one day, they're going to be on top of the world because of the treatment that they treat people here. They are very kind to us when we came, if everybody see you, you want to come around you, chat with you, smile with you. So this country is a very good country. Thank you so much.

LL: Razak Iyal and Seidu Mohammed crossed into Manitoba on Christmas Eve, seeking asylum. Their refugee hearings are coming up at the end of March. Soon they will leave the care of the health sciences centre in Winnipeg and move into their own apartment.

[Music: Extro]

LL: The CBC News is coming up next. Then after the news, how Iceland came close to causing a diplomatic incident over pizza. That story coming up. I'm Laura Lynch in Vancouver and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

Pizza protocol: Should pineapple be banned as a topping?

Guests: Giacomo Pasquini, Massimo Capra, Carol Helstosky

LAURA LYNCH: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch in Vancouver and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

LL: Still to come, what the spectacular rise and fall of far right provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos says about the state of conservatism today. But first, it’s the culinary debate of the century. Well, so far anyway.

SOUNDCLIP

Just because something is legal doesn't mean you should do it. Which is always the argument I've used against pineapple on pizza.

[Sound: crowd laughing]

It's legal, but it's immoral.

[Sound: crowd laughing]

LL: The topic of pineapple on pizza doesn't make for polite conversation. Much like religion and politics, ideas about whether pineapple belongs on the face of a pizza pie are far too entrenched to broach diplomatically. A lesson the president of Iceland learned this week, when he spoke out about the culinary classic. As Iceland's ambassador to Canada Sturla Sigurjónsson explains, it started innocently enough.

SOUNDCLIP

Well, I think he was probably caught a bit off guard. As I understand, he was at an event at a university in Iceland and got this whimsical question about his views on pineapple as a topping on pizza and he responded in a lighthearted way that he thought that they should be forbidden. And then whole storm started, as you know.

LL: Yeah, well the debate over whether pineapple is appropriate for pizza has raged fiercely around the world. And Canada weighed in with a stake of its own, claiming to be the birthplace of the Hawaiian pizza, a pie dressed with ham and pineapple. But in Italy, where real pizza hails from, there is no controversy. Freelancer Megan Williams visited a pizzeria in Rome, and dared to ask customers and the chef whether pineapple is palatable on pizza.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: accordion song]

VOICE 1: No no no no, [Italian speaking language]

VOICE 2: In 40 years, nobody has asked for a pizza with pineapple.

VOICE 3: I've worked in a pizzeria with some neapolitan guys, and they were talking about it like it’s the devil.

[Sound: voices laughing]

VOICE 3: Can't really tell though. Never had it.

VOICE 4: I’m Italian, so I don't think that pizza is a true destination for pineapple. But I've never tried.

REPORTER: Would you ever order?

VOICE 4: No.

REPORTER: It's called Hawaiian pizza. Do you know where it comes from?

VOICE 4: Has to be the US, they're always doing this strange stuff with pizza, messing it up. [chuckles]

REPORTER: Canada.

VOICE 4: Canada. I’ve never had it, I don't think I will ever have it, I mean, pineapple is a fruit.

VOICE 5: There are sweet pizzas, but we use it with Italian stuff. Pineapple isn't exactly an Italian fruit so.

VOICE 4: it's never going to take off in Italy that's for sure, because Italians are really proud about the pizza, how it's made and how it has been done like this for years. So they will never accept it.

REPORTER: Well, so why can you have nutella pizza and not pizza with pineapples?

VOICE 4: Because nutella is Italian.

REPORTER: Ah.

[Music: accordion and trumpet song]

LL: And that was a freelancer Megan Williams, talking to people in Rome. Ro pick this up here in Canada, I'm joined by two chefs, chef Massimo Capra is the owner of Capra’s Kitchen and Giacomo Pasquini is the executive chef of Terroni. They are both in Toronto. Hello to you both.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Good morning.

MASSIMO CAPRA: Hello.

LL: Giacomo Pasquini, let me start with you.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Yes.

LL: People in Rome clearly do not like pineapple on their pizza. What do you think?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Thank God. [laughs]

LL: [laughs]

GIACOMO PASQUINI: I don’t.

LL: Why not?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Well, as the Italian said, I don't think it belongs on the pizza topping. And I think Italian pizza is so simple and, you know, the three ingredients that you can pick is tomato, mozzarella, and basil and extra virgin olive oil. So it's a fruit of an apple, I don’t think it belongs in there. I clearly and honestly, I don't like the taste on it. [laughs]

LL: So have you tried it?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: I don't know if I want to say that. [laughs]

LL: [laughs]

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Well I did, actually.

MASSIMO CAPRA: You probably did, come on.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: I did, I did. Well I have to try it, right? [chuckles]

LL: Uh huh, tell me about that, what was it like the first time you tried it?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: It was the first and last time, let me tell you. [chuckles] It’s something that I'm not enjoying that’s it. I'm not going to order, I have no thought to go back and order. And that was it, that was the first and last time.

MASSIMO CAPRA: Really eh?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: [chuckles]

LL: And Massimo Capra, I can hear you wanting to jump in. What do you think of pizza and pineapple together?

MASSIMO CAPRA: [chuckles] Well, I had it only once, maybe 35 years ago. And then traveling throughout Italy and seeing some pizzerias that are really modern and the new style of pizzerias because there are new things happening in Italy all the time. I actually saw a pizza with pineapple with ham, with pickled onions, with a little bit of grainy mustard, with a ricotta base that was absolutely delicious. And not what we know and what we see. But, you know, I've seen some bad things happening in Italy too.

LL: [chuckles]

GIACOMO PASQUINI: [chuckles]

MASSIMO CAPRA: I mean, like French fries on pizza for instance. I mean, I've seen that.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Yup.

MASSIMO CAPRA: And I know that there is a movement to change things and that starts in Italy, not really abroad. But I am not against putting pineapple on pizza if the flavours are combined right. You know, after all, it is bread based, it’s not, I don't know why we are making a sanctuary out of pizza.

LL: [laughs]

MASSIMO CAPRA: I mean, this is a bread base, it’s an Egyptian bread. You know, I mean, it’s stretched same way, it’s done the same way, the dough is done the same way. It came to Italy and when 200 years ago we found tomatoes and we put them on it, and then it became a big deal. So there is room for change and improvement and betterment. I mean, and this is coming from a guy that only eats margherita pizza by the way.

LL: [chuckles] Alright.

MASSIMO CAPRA: [laughs]

GIACOMO PASQUINI: [laughs]

LL: Alright, you two, the battle is joined between you, Giacomo, you heard what Massimo’s opinion is, is there ever room?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Yeah, if I go in his restaurant, I’m not going to order the pineapple pizza.

MASSIMO CAPRA: [laughs]

LL: But is there ever room for change Giacomo?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Um, personally, I like things, to keep it very traditional to be honest. I always like the history behind the dish, I always like the history behind the ingredients. So I'm a traditional guy. Absolutely. I love when stuff, yes, gets a little bit out of control with different ingredients. But I am a guy that always go back to the tradition. Definitely. So.

LL: What would you do if somebody came into your restaurant and ordered, and said to you would you mind putting some pineapple on the pizza?

MASSIMO CAPRA: [laughs]

GIACOMO PASQUINI: I don't think I’m going to answer that. [chuckles] It's not going to happen. It's very clear. So it's, I don't think we have a pineapple in the restaurant actually in the fridge.

MASSIMO CAPRA: Yeah, I don’t think so.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: So it’s not going to happen. I’m not going to go to the market. I’m not going to go out of my way to the market to get a pineapple.

LL: OK, so that makes it an easy answer. I want to ask both of you, what did you think when you heard that the president of Iceland said he’d ban pineapple on pizza if he could?

MASSIMO CAPRA: That was awesome. That was actually very good, because I've seen some strange things in Iceland. And I love that place and I can't wait to go back, but I mean, that was amazing that he would do that.

LL: OK.

MASSIMO CAPRA: Yeah.

LL: Giacomo?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: I think it was awesome. I was reading the article when it came out and it was funny when he said that I don't have such a power, but if I could I would.

MASSIMO CAPRA: [laughs] Let’s do small steps. Don’t put cheese on spaghetti with clams.

LL: [laughs]

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Definitely. Definitely.

LL: Oh, right, so there's other lines to draw here as well? Alright.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Yes.

MASSIMO CAPRA: Absolutely. Stop using a spoon for crying out loud. Learn to twirl.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Exactly.

LL: But Massimo, you heard Giacomo say that he sounds like he would absolutely say no to somebody if they came into his restaurant asking for pineapple. What would you say if someone wanted that?

MASSIMO CAPRA: Well you see the best thing to do is really not to have the ingredients in house, otherwise you're going to get ridden with guilt, right?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: [chuckles]

MASSIMO CAPRA: So if you don’t have the pineapple, I'm not going to go out and buy pineapple for you. I mean, come on.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: [chuckles]

LL: [chuckles]

MASSIMO CAPRA: You know what I mean? So I don't have pineapple and I don't have French fries in my restaurant. I mean, that's as simple as that.

LL: Well, listen, it doesn't get much more traditional than La Scuola Italiana Pizzaioli, I'm trying my best to pronounce this correctly, near Venice.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: [chuckles]

LL: That is Italy's oldest pizza school. I didn't know such a thing existed, I should have.

MASSIMO CAPRA: Yeah, me neither actually.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Yeah. [chuckles]

LL: [chuckles] And listen now, this is Caterina Orlandi, she teaches there. This is what she says about pineapple on pizza.

SOUNDCLIP

CATERINA ORLANDI: Yeah, in Italy, our pizzerias offer this kind of pizza. Usually this is eaten by tourists. This is not a traditional pizza, but we can consider this pineapple pizza as a dessert pizza. For example, our school, Scuola Italiana Pizzaioli, offers dessert pizza courses. And we have seen before many combinations of fruit, you know, or sweet food on top of pizza. So this has to be considered as a sweet pizza, a dessert pizza and a non-traditional pizza.

LL: OK.

MASSIMO CAPRA: Wow.

LL: There you go from pizza school. Giacomo Pasquini, what do you think of dessert pizza?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Um well, that’s hard. I'm not good. You know what, if you put nutella, I’m into it because I love nutella. As bad as it sound. But definitely, dessert pizza with, no. [Italian speaking language]

LL: Wow.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Yeah.

LL: You are so strict.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Yeah. I'm a traditional guy. So if I go out for pizza, I'm not going to start thinking I want a pizza with the fruit salad on top. No, I'm not ready for that. I’m sorry.

LL: And Massimo Capra?

MASSIMO CAPRA: I couldn't agree with Giacomo more. I wouldn't eat a pizza for dessert if you paid me to. Too much bread not, you know, I mean, it's just not built as a dessert. I don't care how much nutella you put on it, it's just not built as a dessert, it’s a savoury dough. I mean, to me, it's just a silly way to end a meal.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Yeah.

MASSIMO CAPRA: I really don't like that.

LL: Well wait a second, aren't either one of you worried about getting left behind in the world of fusion cuisine?

MASSIMO CAPRA: [laughs]

GIACOMO PASQUINI: That’s not a fusion. I don’t think that it’s a fusion pizza.

MASSIMO CAPRA: OK. Let me put it down this way, if I was in Hawaii, and the pineapple is local and it's beautiful, and I have beautiful ham and then yeah, I would put it on pizza. Fusion cuisine, maybe it is. But you know what, it’s using local ingredients. In Toronto, to put pineapple on pizza from a can or even fresh, diced and all that is disgusting at best.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: [laughs]

MASSIMO CAPRA: Unless you do it properly. To eat dessert, as a pizza dough as dessert. I mean, yeah it's a novelty. But I don't know, I just don't understand people that actually take that and enjoy it, with that battle against sugar and all. I mean, it makes no sense. You know, I mean, a pizza dough is a pizza dough and a sweet dough for a dessert is a sweet dough for a dessert.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Yeah.

MASSIMO CAPRA: So they need to be made differently.

LL: I want to play one more piece of tape from Caterina Orlandi. Each year, the pizza school holds an international pizza contest. And here she is talking again, about innovations in pizza toppings.

SOUNDCLIP

CATERINA ORLANDI: In our school, we have seen so many combinations of food, you know, different toppings on pizza before. For example, during the past edition of the world pizza championship, we have seen a pizza with insects on top. So crickets. In different parts of the world, such as Thailand, Mexico and Algeria, their main dish is insects. So they thought of combining our most, you know, famous dish with their most famous dish.

MASSIMO CAPRA: Hm.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Wow.

LL: I guess that's sort of what you were saying about you go local. [chuckles]

GIACOMO PASQUINI: [laughs]

MASSIMO CAPRA: Yeah, you go really local.

LL: Maybe after that, pineapple on pizza doesn't sound quite so bad?

MASSIMO CAPRA: No, that's right. You know, but I mean, I’ll tell you one thing though about innovation. I, you know, I created a beet risotto about 30 years ago and I've been making it ever since. When the first time that I made beet risotto, it was in a competition here in Toronto from the consortium of rice growers of Italy. And everyone looked at it and it’s beautiful and red and everybody knows it, because it is delicious and it’s sweet and salty and all. And they all, all the Italian chefs looked at me and they went this is gross, this is disgusting, it will never take on. That recipe went in the book because I participated in the event. The book went around the world. And now you can see that beer risotto is apparent everywhere. So even in Italy they are making beet risotto, they actually have dehydrated beet in a risotto bag and they are making it.

LL: OK.

MASSIMO CAPRA: So excuse me, innovation can happen.

LL: OK. Well, and then last word to you Giacomo Pasquini. Do you have any kind of a favourite sort of a mash up of cultures in a dish, a fusion of anything?

GIACOMO PASQUINI: We're talking about pizza? [laughs]

LL: I'm letting you take on the world here.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Well, I agree on innovation with chef Capra definitely. I like to be creative and I worked in creative places, yes. But still, I’ll always go back to the tradition. And you can be still creative, local, use a combination of, we can call it fusion, absolutely. But I think the traditional way has to play a big role in the dish. And that's, I believe, I strongly believe in that.

LL: Well.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Yeah. [chuckles]

LL: Both of you, I hope, I wish you happy days in the kitchen as you head back to work.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Thank you.

LL: And I hope you don't have any nightmares about pineapple on pizza.

MASSIMO CAPRA: [laughs]

GIACOMO PASQUINI: I did last night. [laughs]

MASSIMO CAPRA: I might study some new recipes for it, never mind.

LL: Thanks gentlemen.

GIACOMO PASQUINI: Thank you.

MASSIMO CAPRA: You're welcome, thank you.

LL: Chef Massimo Capra is the owner of Capra's Kitchen, and Giacomo Pasquini is the executive chef of Terroni. They were both in our Toronto studio.

[Music: accordion and trombone song]

LL: Now, for more on the history and traditions of pizza I am joined by Carol Helstosky. She is an Associate Professor of History at the University of Denver, and the author of Pizza: A Global History. She is in Denver. Hello.

CAROL HELSTOSKY: Good morning.

LL: What crossed your mind as you listened to the two chefs?

CAROL HELSTOSKY: I absolutely loved the phrase that Massimo used, that he is not interested in making a sanctuary out of pizza. [chuckles]

LL: [laughs]

CAROL HELSTOSKY: Terrific. I would point out, I found this most interesting and looking at the long range history of pizza, the first thing I would point out would be pizza never had that great a reputation throughout much of its history. As people tried pizza, it had its origins in Naples, right, in the 17th century. And as people outside of Naples, even other Italians or foreigners, tried pizza they reacted with absolute disgust. I believe American inventor Samuel Morse, when he visited Naples and tried pizza, he described that as a type of nauseas cake.

LL: [chuckles]

CAROL HELSTOSKY: And said it was like a piece of bread that had been taken, reeking out of the sewer, because it was covered in pepper and tomatoes and little bits of fish, and people were absolutely disgusted by pizza. So I find that interesting that nowadays we're talking about toppings that make us feel sick. [chuckles]

LL: Yeah, no kidding. But how did it come to be that pizza ended up with these traditional ingredients that we know now?

CAROL HELSTOSKY: In Naples, there were several different types of pizza, but mostly pizza was consumed by the poorest of the Neapolitans. Soldiers, workers, families who didn't have access to kitchens and purchased cheap street food. This was also a place where people could eat pasta street side, and so pizza would be a cheap takeaway snack. And so the pizzaiolo would make pizza out of whatever ingredients he happened to have on hand. Near Naples, tomatoes were certainly popular but also fish. And then some mozzarella made out of buffalo milk, fresh herbs like basil or oregano. Whatever was on hand would be sprinkled on top of a pizza.

LL: And this is linked to poverty is it not? That's sort of how it came out?

CAROL HELSTOSKY: Very much so, yes. The history of Italian cuisine is also the history of, what I call, a cuisine of scarcity. Where you have limited ingredients and you seek to combine those ingredients in creative ways. And over the decades and then over a century, you sort of embed those practices in a series of, I would call them informal, rules. I think you can always bend them a little bit. But we see definitely by the end of the 20th century, I think, in the 1980s, with the growth of slow food in Italy and also the association of authentic Neapolitan pizza makers in the eighties, a real effort to preserve a cuisine of scarcity and to preserve those rules.

LL: That's interesting. So the history is important to today's respect for the rules, even though those rules were sparked by what people didn't have?

CAROL HELSTOSKY: Oh, I think very much so. I mean, I'm an American and I live in the West where I think the majority of my students at university wouldn't blink twice about eating a Hawaiian pizza and put God knows what else on their pizzas. [chuckles]

LL: [chuckles]

CAROL HELSTOSKY: Because they love all kinds of toppings. And I think a lot of my students would look at Italians and say hey, what is their problem? Why are they so strict? Why do they even care, right? Pizza’s for experimenting and you have fun with it, and it's a playful food. What they don't understand, really, is when some Italians, not all Italians, but when some Italians get really upset about bending the rules or trying out this or doing that with a pizza, what they’re really talking about is their culinary heritage. They're talking about, essentially, history on a plate.

LL: Well, so you heard Caterina Orlandi talk about how Italians are now innovating with dessert pizza. What do you think it'll take for that to gain common acceptance in Italy, given what you just said about traditions?

CAROL HELSTOSKY: I think there's always a bit of experimentation that goes on for customers, for consumers, whether they're tourists or new residents to Italy or, you know, immigrants to Italy. I think that that will change. I think you will always encounter, at least in my research, I found that you tend to have pizza purists and then pizza experimenters. I think those two populations exist mostly peacefully. [chuckles]

LL: [chuckles]

CAROL HELSTOSKY: Except at moments, [chuckles] where someone talks about banning pineapple on pizza, then maybe these conversations explode. But I think some Italians will be accepting of innovation, sure.

LL: Is it generational?

CAROL HELSTOSKY: I don’t know. I think you always have new generations of people and this isn't just an Italian phenomenon. You always have new generations of people who go back, when they become chefs or innovators, culinary innovators, and they seek, they look in history, you know, to seek out what those traditions are. We certainly see this in Italy, where new generations of pizza makers really seek to preserve these older traditions. So I don't really think it's something, pizza traditionalism isn't something that's going to die out with a certain generation, there’ll always be new groups of pizza makers who will look back and try to preserve those traditions.

LL: OK. Before I let you go, do you eat pizza with pineapple on it?

CAROL HELSTOSKY: Oh, I am not a pizza purist. [chuckles]

LL: [chuckles]

CAROL HELSTOSKY: I will try anything once. Though I’m going to have to draw the line at insects on pizza.

LL: [laughs]

CAROL HELSTOSKY: I’m not sure how that's going to taste. I have had pizza with pineapple. It was OK. I'm not a big fan of the sweet sour combination. Like that kind of sweet savoury combination, so I tend not to like it. But like I said, I have a teenager who really does like pizza with pineapple and olives of all things.

LL: OK.

CAROL HELSTOSKY: Yeah.

LL: Another strange combination.

CAROL HELSTOSKY: [laughs]

LL: Thank you very much.

CAROL HELSTOSKY: OK. Thank you.

LL: Carol Helstosky is an Associate Professor of History at the University of Denver, and the author of Pizza: A Global History. She was in Denver. And now over to you, should pizza be dressed with pineapple or insects or enjoyed only in its classic ways? Whichever way you slice it, let us hear about it. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or me @LauraLynchCBC. Post on this segment on our Facebook page or email us by clicking on the contact link at cbc.ca/thecurrent.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Wait, the risotto.

VOICE 2: Oh, thank God. OK here we go. Oh, I’m just so hungry. Oh, that looks good, you got leaves with yours.

[Sound: plates clanking]

VOICE 2: Is this what I ordered?

VOICE 1: Yes, that is a risotto.

VOICE 2: Oh.

VOICE 1: It’s a special recipe that my brother and I bring from Italy. It’s delicious, I promise.

VOICE 2: It took so long I thought you went all the way back to Italy to get it.

VOICE 1: Yes, I know, [chuckles] but it’s worth it, I promise. You would like a fresh pepper or cheese?

VOICE 2: No, I don’t need cheese.

VOICE 3: Cheese, yeah, lots of cheese.

[Sound: cutlery on plates]

VOICE 2: Excuse me, didn’t you say that this was going to be rice with seafood?

VOICE 1: Uh, yes, this is, it is Italian Arborio rice, the best. And then with shrimp and scallop and.

VOICE 2: I see. I just don’t see anything that looks like a shrimp or a scallop. I just, well, I’m not, I mean, it’s just not what I expected. But I get a side order of spaghetti with this right?

VOICE 1: Right. Well, no.

VOICE 3: I thought all main courses come with spaghetti?

VOICE 1: Well, some yes. But you see, risotto is rice, so it is a starch. And it doesn’t go really with pasta.

VOICE 2: But I don’t understand.

VOICE 3: Honey, honey. Order a side of spaghetti, that’s all. And I’ll eat your meatballs.

VOICE 2: Yeah, he’ll have meatballs.

VOICE 1: Well, uh, the spaghetti comes without meatballs.

VOICE 2: There are no meatballs with the spaghetti?

VOICE 1: No, sometimes spaghetti likes to be alone. [chuckles]

VOICE 2: Alright then, I guess we’ll also have a side order of meatballs.

VOICE 3: This is fine, let’s just eat.

VOICE 2: Alright then, no meatballs and we’ll just have a side order of spaghetti.

LL: That is a scene from the film Big Night. Echoing those tensions around North American misunderstanding of traditional Italian cuisine. Coming up next, how the mainstream acceptance of troll culture led to the rise and fall of far right darling Milo Yiannopoulos. That story after the break. I'm Laura Lynch in Vancouver and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

[Music: Extro]

LAURA LYNCH: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch in Vancouver and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current. Coming up next week on The Current, the next in our series of special shows on missing and murdered Indigenous women. This one tackles some particularly sensitive stories, stories like Angel Wolfe’s. She was eight-years-old when the RCMP asked for her DNA to confirm the identity of her mother's body, which had been discovered on Robert Pickton’s farm. She tells us how that event transformed her life.

SOUNDCLIP

ANGEL WOLFE: Two officers, a male and a female that came knocking at the door when I was eight-years-old, asking for DNA from me because they told me my mother's jaw bone had been found on Pickton’s farm.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: They actually told you that?

ANGEL WOLFE: Yeah, word for word. My mother's jaw bone was found on Pickton’s farm and I was eight-years-old. There was no kind of feeling about these women. There was no kind of care. They were just a needle in a haystack that were being found on this farm.

AMT: I can't even imagine what an eight-year-old would think. How did you react to that?

ANGEL WOLFE: I was very angry. At that point, I kind of just envisioned a glass mirror being broken and shattering to the floor because growing up in care, I always had a dream that I would pack my bags one day and run away and find my mom. And so once those police told me my mother's jaw bone was on a farm, that mirror kind of just shattered all over the floor and I knew that bag wasn't going to be packed and I was never going to find my mom again.

LL: Angel Wolfe joins a panel of young Indigenous activists, as part of The Current’s public forum on missing and murdered Indigenous women in Canada. This town hall focused on how the issue affects children and youth specifically. That special coming up Wednesday on The Current.

[Music: electronic trance]

What the rise and fall of Milo Yiannopoulos says about conservatism and online trolling

Guests: Pete Wehner, Whitney Phillips

LAURA LYNCH: I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

MILO YIANNOPOULOS: I never identify as the alt-right, the press seems determined to crown me the queen of it. All I've done is give them a fair hearing in the press. I think that white identity and white nationalism is a little misleading. I think it's more accurate to say that the alt-right cares about Western supremacy, rather than white supremacy. It cares about Western values, it cares about liberal capitalist western democracy, democratic values, freedom, equality, that kind of thing. And it sees, you know, various threats to those on various fronts. But all I can tell you is as a gay man, I'm quite reassured by Donald Trump's, you know, entreaties toward American values and his scepticism about Islamic immigration.

LL: That's former Breitbart editor Milo Yiannopoulos speaking on CNBC last September. And while he denied being part of the so-called alt-right. Yiannopoulos has built a career espousing many things they embrace, such as his views on feminism, minorities, Muslims, and Jews.

SOUNDCLIP

MILO YIANNOPOULOS: Most people instinctively agree with equality of opportunity for women to rise as high as a man if they're prepared to work as hard and put the same amount of hours in. And that's not what modern intersectional third wave, as it's called, feminism is about. Which seems to me, and I think to a lot of women too, primarily to be about man hating. It is a very angry, bitter, profane, lesbianiac sort of feminism.

MILO YIANNOPOULOS: I mean, the Black Lives Matter want the same thing the KKK does, segregated dorms at colleges, all that kind of stuff. They leave black cities in flames because they're so self-destructive.

MILO YIANNOPOULOS: Most of the generation Trump, the alt-right people, the people who like me, they're not anti-Semites, they don't care about Jews, they may have some assumptions about Jews, they may have some prejudice about Jews, that the Jews run everything. Well we do. The Jews run all the banks, well we do. The Jews run the media, well we do. You know, I mean, they’re right about all that stuff.

LL: Milo Yiannopoulos parlayed that kind of rhetoric into a lucrative book deal with Simon and Schuster, and an invitation to speak at CPAC, the Conservative Political Action Conference, where President Donald Trump is speaking today. Yiannopoulos was set to take the stage at that same conference, until a video surfaced where he appeared to condone paedophilia. The backlash was swift. The book deal and the keynote address were canceled. My next guest says Milo Yiannopoulos’ invitation to CPAC was a sign of the moral decay within conservatism in America. Pete Wehner is a conservative writer, a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Centre, and he served as a speechwriter and adviser in the previous three Republican administrations. We've reached him today in McLean, Virginia. Hello.

PETE WEHNER: How are you?

LL: Fine, thank you. What did you make of the initial invitation from CPAC to Milo Yiannopoulos?

PETE WEHNER: That it was outrageous. And I said so at the time, this idea that he represents Western values is absurd. He's a nihilist, he's decadent, he's crude, and he's obviously disturbed. And the idea that the Conservative Political Action Conference, which is the largest gathering of grassroots conservatives in America would invite him and celebrate him. Really was disturbing, but in a sense, not shocking because that is the state of conservatism in America right now, at least large parts of it.

LL: Now, his invitation has now been revoked after his comments. CPAC is saying it made the right decision. What do you make of its handling of this?

PETE WEHNER: Well, yeah of course, if a guy comes out on tape and essentially endorses pedophilia, they disinvited him are they supposed to pat themselves on the back for that? It's like, well, this is the boundary they finally said that can't be crossed? Endorsing pedophilia but everything short of that, the misogyny, the anti-Semitism, the racist attacks on African-American actresses, the whole act of Yiannopoulos, to shock, to insult, to tear down civic and moral and cultural boundaries. That whole schtick was well known and CPAC invited him and was proud to invite him. And just because they said, look, you know, the pedophilia comments is creating outrage, so we have to disinvite you. They handled it poorly. I agreed with them to rescind the invitation but it never should have been sent in the first place.

LL: Well, why do you think they did send it in the first place? Was it about making headlines?

PETE WEHNER: There was a combination of things. I think part of it was headlines. I think part of it was, in a sense, ratings. Trying to get a lot of attention. Press was going to be there and then going to write about it. And frankly, was there to try and appeal to elements within the right, including people, the younger generation, but not exclusively to them. Because Yiannopoulos represents something that is happening on the right. And he has an appeal to it. What he says has resonance with some number of people. Matt Schlapp, who's the head of the American Conservative Union, which hosts CPAC understood that and so he wanted to bring him in because of what he thought was in the self-interest of his organization as it relates to attention and ratings.

LL: How would you define conservatism in the United States today?

PETE WEHNER: I think it's confused. Look, I think most, if you talk to most Republicans, certainly most Republicans on Capitol Hill and the Senate and then the House, and after three drinks, if they were honest, they would say that they identify more with a kind of Reagan version of conservatism, that is after all the conservatism that shaped the movement for the last 35 years and that many of them grew up in and imbibed as they became conservatives. And it’s the reason many of them did become conservatives. And now Trump is coming, [sighs] coming along, he and his team, Steve Bannon, Steve Miller and others, and they're redefining it. Now, I would argue that Trump and Bannon and Miller, what they represent isn't conservatism. It's a kind of ethno nationalism, a blood and soil conservatism, and it's one that I strongly oppose. But Trump won, he's head of the Republican Party. And increasingly, he's viewed as head of the conservative movement. And so there's this split going on and there's this debate going on and you see it in all sorts of places, including among writers and public intellectuals, many of whom say this is not a form of conservatism that we're comfortable in, it's not a form of conservatism we're going to sign up for. And they're going to try and fight and defend for the definition of conservatism as it’s been traditionally understood. And they view, and I would put myself in that in that group, Donald Trump and Steve Bannon and Steve Miller as enemies of that version of conservatism.

LL: And yet many of them voted for Donald Trump.

PETE WEHNER: They did. That was a problem. And a lot of us were quite discouraged about it at the time. I will say, having been in touch with a lot of pro Trump voters, this really was not a continuum, right? Some people voted for Trump. They did so reluctantly. Trump was their last choice among Republicans, but when given a choice between Trump and Hillary Clinton, they voted for Trump because they felt like he would do more conservative things, in their estimation, more things that were good for the country than Hillary Clinton would. That's a reasonable argument. I disagreed with it. But it's a reasonable one.

LL: Right.

PETE WEHNER: And I think what bothered me more was people on the right who enthusiastically embraced Trump, who were cheerleaders for him. Who for years held positions that were antithetical to what Trump represents.

LL: I just want to jump in there because when you say the ones on the right, some of them are now embracing what is labeled the alt-right. And I just want to play some tape for you, Dan Schneider, the Executive Director of the American Conservative Union had this to say about the alt-right.

SOUNDCLIP

DAN SCHNEIDER: There is a sinister organization that is trying to worm its way in, into our ranks. We have heard what conservatism is. We have to make sure we know what conservatism is not. Just a few years ago, this hate filled left wing fascist group hijacked the very term alt-right. And they did it intentionally, because they want to deceive the media and they want to deceive you all about what they stand for. They are not an extension of conservatism. They are nothing but garden variety left wing fascists.

LL: What do you think of that? Left wing fascist, does that make any sense?

PETE WEHNER: Well, I agreed with most of it. I'm not sure I would call them left wing fascists. I'm not sure that that's fair to the left wing and I have my problems with the left wing. I think they're a kind of nihilistic group and I certainly don't think that they're conservative. I mean, the name itself alt-right stands for alternative right so.

LL: But I guess what I'm wondering is is Dan Snyder simply trying to change labels because he doesn't want the conservative movement to have to address racism within its ranks? So he'd rather push it out.

PETE WEHNER: No, no, I don't think that that's what he's doing. I think what he's doing is he's saying that there is an understanding, a pedigree, a history of conservatism and what Milo Yiannopoulos and the alt-right represent isn't that. It isn't in that tradition. It isn't conservatism as most people understand it or as history has defined it. Is there racism within the right? Sure. There is racism and perditious elements within every political movement and you address them as it comes up. But that's why I'm not sure I would say that what Yiannopoulos represents is left wing fascism. But it's certain philosophy of fascism that has fascistic elements to it and that's antithetical to conservatism. If that's his argument, I agree with him.

LL: I have about ten seconds left. I just wanted to ask you, is there a seat at the table for traditional conservatives like you in America now?

PETE WEHNER: Oh I think so. There are a lot of writers and thinkers and actually a lot of Americans who hold these views. I'll tell you, I think events will determine whether Trump and Bannon and Miller succeed or not. I think that Trump will fail. I think he's inept and incompetent. I think his ideology is pernicious, I do think when he fails, that something will replace it and that something will be good and right and honourable.

LL: We'll leave it there. Thank you so much.

PETE WEHNER: Thanks.

LL: Pete Wehner is a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, and he served in previous three Republican administrations. We reached him in McLean, Virginia.

SOUNDCLIP

MILO YIANNOPOULOS: What I would suggest to you is that we return to the definition that I spoke about, how they have the trolls whose primary purpose is to cause other people emotional distress, to inflict misery on other people. And I don't think anyone could accuse me or any other robustly opinioned columnist of doing that. We sometimes say things and we sometimes publish and edit our publications in a way that causes, that upsets some people. You might say that a tabloid journalist isn’t doing its job properly if he doesn't accomplish that. But I certainly wouldn't agree that I fall into the category of the sorts of people that we’re looking for.

LL: That was Milo Yiannopoulos talking to the CBC back in 2013, denying his reputation as a so-called professional troll. But my next guest disagrees, and argues that it was the popularity and normalisation of troll culture that led to his rise as a far right ringleader. Whitney Phillips is an Assistant Professor at Mercer University, and the author of This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things: Mapping the Relationship Between Online Trolling and Mainstream Culture. We've reached her in Macon, Georgia. Hello.

WHITNEY PHILLIPS: Good morning Laura.

LL: Now, there Milo Yiannopoulos was denying being a troll in that clip. That was four years ago. Does he fit your description of a troll?

WHITNEY PHILLIPS: Oh, that's a complicated question. I actually do, in part to people like him, have stopped using the word troll to describe online instigation, because the problem with the word troll is that it tends to posit a kind of playfulness or sort of this idea that it's not really real life, it's something that happens on the Internet. And if you take offense to it you're just being oversensitive. You have been trolled. And instead, I think it's really critical to call the behaviours based on what impact they have. So I would actually agree, I don't personally call Milo Yiannopoulos a troll, I call him, you know, a nihilistic, mean spirited, opportunist, and a racist, and a bigot, and a person who has created a lot of pain for a lot of people. So I think that in a way, I mean, I agree with him, but not for the reasons that he stipulates himself.

LL: OK. Well then how exactly would you define a troll?

WHITNEY PHILLIPS: I mean, trolling is, he's right, in how it has typically been defined historically, or at least in the last 15 years or so. You know, that it's a troll is someone who deliberately tries to upset people on the internet. And that term is still utilized, it's still in, you know, high circulation online these days. But like I said, I think that what that does is it minimizes the embodied impact that those behaviours have on people online, and it kind of engages in a sort of victim blaming logic. That you allow yourself to be trolled, so if you get trolled it's ultimately your fault, it's not the fault of the person who is choosing to be antagonistic for their own entertainment.

LL: What do you mean by that term embodied impact?

WHITNEY PHILLIPS: Yeah, I mean, so when people talk about online interactions, they tend often to kind of cordon it off from quote unquote, “real life”, as if the internet is some other place that, you know, normal rules of society don't entirely apply, and that you don't have to take things so seriously it's the internet. It kind of stipulates its own sort of behavioural and emotional norms. And that I mean, that's just evidence, in the fact that people very commonly demarcate real life from, you know, IRL, in real life, from the internet. And I think that is a mistake, because even if something is mediated digitally, a person can still have very real embodied responses to antagonistic online behaviour. So yeah, it might be happening on a computer screen but when you are enraged from something that you see online or when you feel traumatized by something you seen online, that is a fully embodied physiological response that is indistinguishable from the kinds of responses that you would have from an interaction that takes place, for example, at the grocery store.

LL: Now, the comedian and talk show host Bill Maher likened Yiannopoulos to a young Christopher Hitchens, who is the late but well known critic and writer. What do you make of that comparison?

WHITNEY PHILLIPS: I mean, I think that Yiannopoulos has made his career in the last few years out of denigrating others, targeting members of groups who he doesn't feel deserves protection or equal protection. You know, he's gone after black activists, women of colour in particular, you know, trans people, he's outed them and harassed them in person. You know, so to suggest that what he's doing is engaging in some sort of intellectual argument, which is what Hitchens was, that was what he did. You know, that's absurd and it's offensive. Because what Yiannopoulos is doing is he's targeting members of marginalized groups and essentially encouraging people on the internet to point and laugh at them or hurl insults at them, that it's not, this is not intellectual labour that he's doing, it's hatefulness.

LL: So as you say, he existed on the internet. What role did the media play in building what is known today as Milo Yiannopoulos?

WHITNEY PHILLIPS: They played an enormous role. You know, and this is true for all kinds of antagonistic behaviours online. The subcultural trolls that I studied in my book, which was research from 2008, 2013, and in that book, and I think this argument is applicable to Yiannopoulos as well, online instigators exist in this kind of symbiotic relationship with journalists often, that both the misbehaviour of trolls, if you want to put scare quotes on that or not, that that ultimately creates an opportunity to, you know, write sort of sensationalist headlines and hot takes. And it allows, trolls give journalists quite a lot to do. And that content is in turn commoditized through advertisements and that just incentivizes additional trolling behaviour, because their behaviours work. They misbehave in particular predictable ways and then journalists report on that behaviour in predictable ways. And so both sides can sometimes, both sides end up benefiting in different ways, but both sides end up benefiting from the behaviour of the other. And so it's really, it's impossible to talk about Yiannopoulos outside of the context of a media environment that rewards sensationalist headlines, click bait. Yiannopoulos, he is the extension of that, he has the grotesque extension of, basically, capitalist practices online.

LL: Well, so then what's your prescription? Would you suggest that the media ignore people like him?

WHITNEY PHILLIPS: Absolutely not. No. And this is, I mean, and I have done a lot of soul searching myself, because as a cultural critic, as an academic, I'm also part of this system that I that I'm critiquing right? That when I write, when I wrote my book or when I write my articles about these kinds of things, you know, I also am contributing to a longer tale of a story, right? And I think that a way for all of us, so again, I'm not pointing fingers, I am in this camp, I am in it. I think that there are ways of approaching these kinds of subjects and these kinds of characters that minimizes the sensationalism. And instead, forwards, instead basically doesn't do their work for them. That there are ways of covering Yiannopoulos, explaining what he says and contextualizing why that is so damaging and hurtful in this embodied way. You can talk about that and you can reframe the conversation, so it's not just essentially carrying his water, that you're not calling him the names that he wants, you're not using the terms he wants to be called, and you're not buying into his particular worldview, in which he's doing nothing wrong and everyone else is the one that has the problem. That you push back against that and that's a way of forwarding, you know, it's reporting the news, that's what journalist's job to do, so of course they need to do that. But doing so in a way that minimizes the kind of sensationalist element that incentivizes Yiannopoulos and people like Yiannopoulos.

LL: Given your knowledge of things, do you think that now with what's happened to Yiannopoulos that he'll just go away?

WHITNEY PHILLIPS: [chuckles] I would be shocked if Yiannopoulos just went away. Right now, I mean, the story is still very fresh. So it's unclear what group or groups are going to end up embracing him. I mean, the logistic question of where is he going to have a job now? I don't know. I don't know what is going to happen. But there is absolutely no way that he is going to just sort of accept this and then kind of shuffle off into obscurity, it's not, that is not what kind of person we're dealing with.

LL: Whitney Phillips, thank you.

WHITNEY PHILLIPS: Thank you.

LL: Whitney Phillips is an Assistant Professor at Mercer University, and the author of This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things: Mapping the Relationship Between Online Trolling and Mainstream Culture. She is in Macon, Georgia.

[Music: piano]

LL: Yesterday on the program, we spoke with American culture and literary critic Jessa Crispin about her new book Why I Am Not a Feminist: A Feminist Manifesto. In it, Jessa Crispin takes issue with modern day big tent feminism, arguing it's been hollowed out to appeal to the masses.

SOUNDCLIP

The idea of universal feminism, you know, all women should be feminists, I don't think that's true. Feminism used to be a radical, terrifying thing. Feminism should make men scared and uncomfortable because they are going to have to examine their unconscious desires and their unconscious ways of oppressing women that they haven't necessarily been aware of in the past and it should make women uncomfortable, because you should understand that by participating, by profiting from this society that is a system of oppression and a system of exploitation, that you are causing harm.

LL: Well, after that segment aired we heard from a lot of you. Renzo Cecchetto in Ottawa writes, “any man who spoke so disparagingly of females in the same manner that Jessa Crispin offered her opinions of the male gender would be instantly excoriated as misogynistic and a woman hater. Why should such views be tolerated in the reverse direction?” Carla Chambers had a different take, she tweeted her perspective on feminism, “great segment on feminism. I agreed with most of the critiques the guest had. Feminist politics is a better term. It keeps things socially focused instead of a self-centering of the word feminist. While the human rights label applies, women have to be seen as fully human first. That's what feminist politics addresses. And we also heard from Margaret Beach in Toronto, she writes, “I am a 54-year-old white woman. I attended the Toronto event for the Women's March on Washington with my daughters and husband who thought they were feminist too. It was uplifting to recognize the terrible misogyny that controls our world and join in the crowd and shout shame. What do I have to do to be quote worthy? Jessa Crispin is not the only person I've heard speak negatively about women and men who claim to be feminists but are criticized because they lack the required radical ideology, racial background, gender or sexual identity struggles.” And finally, we'll get the last word to Alex Cheung who tweets, “best line from Jessa Crispin on people who call themselves feminists, just because you call yourself a unicorn doesn't make you one.” If you have thoughts on feminism or anything else you hear on the program, let us know. You can find us on Facebook, on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC, me @LauraLynchCBC, or contact us through our website at cbc.ca/thecurrent. Well that is today's edition of The Current. Now, earlier today we heard the arguments for and against pineapple on pizza. But of course, pineapple isn't the only nontraditional topping people have wanted to put on their pies. We're going to leave you today with a scene from Seinfeld. This is Kramer learning to make pizza. I'm Laura Lynch in Vancouver, thank you for listening to the Friday edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

KRAMER: Everybody can do this.

POPPIE: Mmhmm. Yeah.

[Sound: crowd laughing]

POPPIE: No, no, use your wrist. It’s all in the wrist.

KRAMER: Oh yeah, whoa.

POPPIE: Not too high.

[Sound: crowd laughing]

POPPIE: Very good, that’s a very good.

KRAMER: Put the sauce on here. [Kramer speaking made up Italian]

[Sound: crowd laughing]

KRAMER: Some cheese, yeah.

POPPIE: Not a too much.

KRAMER: Mmm. Ham, cucumbers.

[Sound: crowd laughing]

POPPIE: Wait a second, what is that?

KRAMER: It’s cucumbers.

POPPIE: No no no, you can’t a put a cucumbers on a pizza.

KRAMER: Well why not? I like cucumbers.

POPPIE: That’s a not a pizza, it’ll taste terrible.

KRAMER: No but that’s the idea, you make your own pie.

POPPIE: Yes, but we cannot a give a the people the right to choose any topping they want. Now on this issue there can be no debate.

KRAMER: What gives you the right to tell me how I would make my pie?

POPPIE: Because it’s a pizza.

KRAMER: It’s not a pizza until it comes out of the oven.

POPPIE: It’s a pizza the moment you put your fists in the dough.

KRAMER: No it isn’t.

POPPIE: Yes it is.

[Sound: crowd laughing]

[Music: Personal and the Pizzas]

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February 24, 2017 full episode transcript

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