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The Current Transcript for January 14, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

MATT GALLOWAY: Rechev Brown works at a grocery store in Toronto. And like many other essential workers, he's worried about what will happen if he does get sick.

RECHEV BROWN If you're not feeling too well, you are told to stay home until you get tested for COVID. I know for me, like, I'm... right now, I'm scared that if I'm not feeling well to let my boss and I'm not feeling well, and it's kind of unfair for me and obviously my co-workers and my employer that I should be coming to work sick. Let's say I have COVID, right? But because of the fear of losing income, because you don't have the time, you don't have the legislation, if I can say, then you're put in a position where you have to put literally your health before your income. And you should never have to choose between your health and your job.

MATT GALLOWAY: Rechev Brown doesn't have paid sick days. And the calls for that to change for him and other workers are getting louder. Dr. Lawrence Loh is the medical officer of health for Peel Region in Ontario, one of the hardest-hit parts of the entire country when it comes to COVID-19.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Loh, good morning.

LAWRENCE LOH: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thank you for joining us. How common are the concerns like the ones we heard from Rechev Brown just now?

LAWRENCE LOH: Well, I think the concerns are very common. And I think the reality is that the current stay-at-home order in Ontario is going to do little to change the ongoing plate and transmission that's occurring in workplaces and then subsequently within homes in our region.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why do you believe, I mean, there's a lot that has been said about this order, and Ontarians are being told just to stay home. Why do you believe that the stay-at-home order won't have the effect that it's meant to have?

LAWRENCE LOH: Well, in Peel Region, one of the biggest challenges that we've seen is that we have a lot of employees, a lot of workers, who do jobs that you can't do from home. Certainly, manufacturing, warehousing and distributing, food processing. Besides many of the frontline retail workers, just as the initial interview that you had played there also face. And the reality is that these aren't jobs that can be done by Zoom. And these are also jobs that also tend to have fewer supports or fewer benefits, including things like paid sick leave to ensure that people can do what they need to do to stay healthy.

MATT GALLOWAY: Tell me more about that. In your region, as I mentioned, COVID cases continue to be in the hundreds every day. That's one of the hardest-hit parts of this entire country. What are you seeing in the workplaces in terms of why those areas in the midst of this pandemic, I mean, were months and months into this now are still the source of COVID outbreaks?

LAWRENCE LOH: One thing that's really interesting, if you look at the Ontario government's modelling data, is that Peel actually hit a plateau for about six or seven weeks since November. And then only recently, we started seeing a very concerning surge, likely related to the holidays. But the good question that a lot of people ask is, well, what is that plateau? Why is Peel just sort of sitting at 500 cases a day for so long? And the reality is, again, we have a lot of individuals who work in workplaces where, you know, there are, you know, these are many of our newest Canadians, many who are from racialized populations, temporary agency and contract workers. And there's lots of incentives for them to work or to break isolation early if they've been exposed so that they can make sure they can keep a roof over their heads. And that really becomes quite a bit of a challenge when you're trying to both stay well and safe, most importantly for them, but also to control disease spread in the community and keep the community safe as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: That if they didn't come to work, as Rechev Brown said, I mean, life is expensive, and they wouldn't be able to afford the things that they need to afford, like rent or food, because they wouldn't be paid.

LAWRENCE LOH: That's right. And there's lots of studies about this from around the world. There was a study of New York nursing homes, for example, that showed that nursing homes that had more generous paid sick leave actually had lower rates of respiratory and gastrointestinal outbreaks. We do know that other studies have shown that from the H1N1 pandemic that workers who are precariously employed, who do need that income are more likely to show up and work sick.

MATT GALLOWAY: This is a bit of a side note, but it's important to this. I mean, we've spoken with employees in manufacturing plants in your community, and they've talked about what they face on a daily basis. Why is it ten, 11 months into this pandemic that some of these manufacturing and industrial workplaces would still be contributing to the spread of COVID-19?

LAWRENCE LOH: Well, it's an interesting question. I think there's a there's a few things there. Ultimately, it's a bit of a cycle of transmission. We have transmission that occurs in workplaces, sometimes in multiple workplaces, because we do know many temporary agency and contract workers need to work between multiple workplaces in order to make ends meet. And then it ends up in homes. And one of the big things that we have in our region is we have homes with a lot of inhabitants in them. These aren't single, you know, one or two-person kind of housing units as might be along the waterfront in Toronto. But these can be very large homes, multiple families, multiple people who are all in the same precarious employed position. The spread then continues there and then continues from there back into workplaces. And so the reality is, in addition to what is a perfect storm, where every time you're getting a box, every time you're getting a delivery, every time you're seeing food on your grocery shelves, chances are it's passed through the region of Peel. That all together is really what continues to drive both the economy to some extent, but also transmission within the region.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so, given that, what did you want to see change when it came to the way that that paid sick days would be handled?

LAWRENCE LOH: Well, paid sick days are a really important piece of the puzzle. It really gives not just a legal force but also a societal force and message. If you're out there saying the message, you know, stay home when you're sick, you need to allow people to have that confidence that they can do so. But related to that, it is all about what we call in Pell protection, investigations and inspections. So, you know, we know our Ministry of Labour colleagues, you know, should have resources and more of the ability to proactively inspect the harder hit sectors where people are still working in-person. Rapid testing could be rolled out in workplaces. And certainly, more protection for those temporary and agency and contract workers in the same way that long-term care workers are, you know, given the support to stay at one facility, those folks should maybe be getting the same support as well. So it really is a bit of a culmination of everything, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so when the premier of Ontario says that the situation in his province is at a crisis point, that the health care system is at a breaking point or beyond the breaking point, and there is real concern about how bleak the next few days, weeks, months could be. There have been calls to have paid sick days implemented as part of this new lockdown in the province of Ontario. That didn't happen. What did you think when you saw that?

LAWRENCE LOH: Well, you know, I know the premier has been working tremendously together with the rest of his cabinet, balancing all sorts of... all sorts of different considerations and challenges. But I think the thing that we know is that the cost of a few paid sick days is probably much less than, you know, the need to, you know, wholesale shut down the economy because transmission is still happening. And I think, you know, I think to the extent that, you know, other jurisdictions that have taken care of their most vulnerable have seen successes in making sure that everyone is safe from COVID, the ability to ensure that we are taking care of our essential workforce is really about fixing that plateau that we saw in Peel. And ultimately, what continues to drive transmission throughout Ontario.

MATT GALLOWAY: You're a doctor, but, I mean, being the medical officer of health has some political dimension to it. Help me understand this. What do you see as the resistance to something like paid sick days?

LAWRENCE LOH: You know, I think it's... it's a number of different pieces. I think one of the things is there is a real focus, I would say, on on individual accountability in the midst of a collective project. And, you know, to the extent that many people are following the rules and many people are doing the right thing, I imagine a lot of people in Peel, as well as, you know, across Canada and Ontario are wondering, well, what is going on? And I think we as a society just need to remember that, you know, there are those people who are out there shirking the rules, who are, you know, ignoring the advice. But there are some people who are unable to follow the advice because they are actually precariously employed, because they're making the impossible choices of keeping a roof over their heads or, you know, stopping the spread. And I think to the extent that we can support them, we know that we're ultimately supporting all of us in our community and staying safe.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you think there's something ideological behind this? I mean, Premier Ford, before the pandemic started, had eliminated paid sick days in the province of Ontario.

LAWRENCE LOH: Yeah, I mean, I certainly, you know, follow along with many of those discussions. But ultimately, I know that, you know, our governments, you know, our leaders want to do right in this pandemic, and they want to make sure that we actually all get out of what is really [chuckle] a bit of a nightmare, I think, for many of us. And that ultimately means that for those who aren't able to protect themselves, for those who are vulnerable, for those who for those who are still working, even as the rest of us are being told to stay home, you know, we need to figure out how we're making sure that we're stopping transmission amongst that population.

MATT GALLOWAY: There is a federal dimension to this, and this applies across the country obviously, and this is something the premier of Ontario has said, saying that in some ways, the federal government will provide funding for paid sick days, the provinces would implement job leave protection. That's what's happened. Why is that federal plan around sick days not enough to keep people home when they're sick?

LAWRENCE LOH: So one of the biggest challenges with the current federal assistance is the time in which it takes for it to be released. You know, in general, the benefit of having something like paid sick days is that it, again, it basically affords a certain flexibility, and it affords a certain reassurance, especially in the midst of an emergency situation where, you know, decisions need to be taken quickly. So one of the challenges of the federal assistance is things like the waiting period, and also, certainly, the amount and the ability by which people can reach it. I would say if anything, Matt, you know, there should be a campaign to at least... and there is continuing work to help essential workers understand what they could access if they fall sick. But, you know, beyond helping them access what they can already access, I think we really need to look at how they're getting that assistance as well, which is very critical.

MATT GALLOWAY: You said very early on that this stay-at-home order in the province of Ontario may not be effective because of the lack of paid sick days. Where does that leave you if cases continue to rise in your jurisdiction, and, you know, the hammer comes down, but the hammer isn't hitting the nail? Where does that leave you?

LAWRENCE LOH: Well, you know, I think it goes back to what I was saying in the in the middle there, Matt. There's a number of things that need to be done and a real focus that needs to be taken on our essential workforce, the people that continue to make sure that the rest of us can stay home. So deploying things like rapid testing, deploying things like workplace inspections, you know, paid sick days, so that there's that conversation that says really stay home if you're not feeling well. And we'll make sure you're taken care of. It's about really reframing our approach I would say to the pandemic, to say, you know, there is an understanding that by virtue of where you work or where you live, you're disadvantaged somehow, and we need to make sure that if we're going to get through this, we're actually making sure that you can take care of yourself.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just finally, this far into this pandemic, are you frustrated that you have to keep repeating the same message?

LAWRENCE LOH: You know, I think it's... It's not that frustrating because, ultimately, it is the message of hope. And it is the same message we've been trying to deliver for a long time. Really, the best way to get through this pandemic is together and through being kind to each other. And I think one of the kindest ways to make sure that we're looking out for, you know, our fellow people is to make sure that we're able to take the steps that we can to protect ourselves from COVID-19.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr Loh, I really appreciate your time this morning. You have a lot going on, and I'm glad that you were able to steal some time to speak with us. Thank you very much.

LAWRENCE LOH: Thanks so much, Matt. I appreciate it.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Lawrence Loh is the medical officer of Health for Peel Region in the Greater Toronto Area. Lior Shamfiru is an employment lawyer at Samfiru Tumarkin. He's been listening in. Lior, good morning to you.

LIOR SAMFIRU: Good morning, Matt. Thanks for having me on.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thanks for joining us. What do you make of what you've heard from Dr. Lawrence Loh? That the way out of this is through paid sick days, is through allowing people the ability to stay home when they're sick and not worry that they're going to be evicted because, for example, they can't pay the rent?

LIOR SAMFIRU: I don't doubt for a second that having sick days, having paid sick days, will curb the virus. If we were able to have a proper system in place that allowed people that have the virus or may have the virus to stay home and not put others at risk, but putting something like that in place and the consequences that may come about if you put it in place may actually give us pause here. For example, the only practical way where paid sick days can be implemented is by imposing that obligations on employers. The government doesn't have the ability to assess and administer a proper paid sick days in the way that would actually benefit employees. That would take way too long. So it would have to be up to the employer. Well, in a time right now where many employers and, you know, you talked about this earlier are on the brink of going under. They're surviving. They're holding on barely.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

LIOR SAMFIRU: To impose this additional financial obligation, for many employers, that may be a death sentence. Or it could mean something else. Many employers may have to find the money, but elsewhere by perhaps letting people go, by cutting hours, by laying off people. So those people who we're trying to help by giving them additional compensation may end up losing their job and be even worse off financially. So we have to understand that right now we're in a very unique financial situation for businesses. This is not the real world for them. So to impose that additional obligation on certain employers, that could be potentially fatal and very, very, very problematic.

MATT GALLOWAY: But we're also in a unique situation when it comes to the health of Canadians. I mean, we're in a global pandemic, and people are falling ill, and people are dying. And I guess the doctor's point was it's in some ways short-term pain for long-term gain, that a complete shutdown would be worse. If you are able to allow your employees, if they're feeling sick, to stay home for a couple of weeks, that in the long run is going to help those employers. Does that hold water for you?

LIOR SAMFIRU: Well, it depends if the employer can survive it until then. I can tell you that study after study has shown that for those employers that provide paid sick days to their employees, and many employers do. If they provide five paid sick days, employees will take the five. If they provide 25, they'll take the 25. So employers will assume that if I provide a certain number of sick days, those will be taken. And that is a huge cost for me.

MATT GALLOWAY: But what's wrong with that if somebody's sick and they're staying home? I mean, again, if this is about, you know, transmitting a disease, and Dr. Loh is saying that in those industrial sites or in perhaps the distribution centres, people are coming in and they're sick, isn't it better for all of us if those employees are able to stay home?

LIOR SAMFIRU: Absolutely, no doubt. But employers will tell you that one of the concerns that they have is, you know, as much as we don't like to say that there may be some taking advantage of a situation by those who may not qualify for sick days, still saying, well, I have these, quote/unquote, free days that I could get five, ten, 20. So I'll take advantage of those. And employers tell you that that's always been happening.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is there any evidence, though? Is there any evidence that people actually take advantage of that, that I mean, you know, if you have a few sick days, it's not that, you know, you're not coming into work because you don't want to, but that people are actually using them because they're sick and they feel as though that's their right?

LIOR SAMFIRU: Well, I certainly... I certainly know that employers will tell you that that's what they've experienced. I know I've had my clients tell me that they've seen that. And that's why oftentimes, you know, especially with employers that are unionized and negotiate sick days for the unionized employees, there's such a reluctance often to negotiate and increase those sick days because they know, well, if we add two more sick days to our allotment of 15, then employees will take those. And now everyone will take 17 days. But I think a government here can step in and do something effective to help the situation, which is to provide financial incentives for those employers so they can afford to provide sick days through tax breaks or other incentives, or perhaps deal with the problem. And the problem is not so much the sick days. The problem is that the individuals can't afford to be off. So if there's a way to offset or defer some of the liabilities, financial liabilities, that employees have when they cannot work for a period of time or to help them meet those financial obligations, I think that's when the government can intervene and perhaps alleviate that problem. I'm not convinced that telling all employers in this province at this time you have to provide a certain number of paid sick days is actually going to solve the problem if the result is people losing their jobs.

MATT GALLOWAY: It was interesting because the Ontario Chamber of Commerce has opposed paid sick days for a long time. They represent a number of businesses in that province. They reversed that stance last month, and they said that they supported a bill from the opposition party in Ontario that would have made, you know, paid sick leave in Ontario, something that employees could could count on. The bill didn't pass. But does that show to you some support from within the business community, and perhaps attitudes would be changing?

LIOR SAMFIRU: I certainly think that a lot of businesses are in a position to offer sick days, and they see the value in that, and especially because it may keep their workplaces safe, allow them to stay open because they don't have to shut down because of a COVID outbreak. The problem is those smaller businesses that may not have a voice as much, or as public a voice in how they're going to cope with it and they're going to survive with it. You know, the small retailers, the small stores, et cetera, how are they going to manage it? And we can't forget those because they're ultimately the backbone of most economies, those are very small businesses. And how they're going to be impacted in this time when they're barely holding on. I think that is obvious. So maybe this is where the government provides assistance and support to those businesses to allow them to do that rather than impose a brand new financial obligation on them.

MATT GALLOWAY: We just have a couple of seconds left. Let me ask you for a bit of, as I can say, free legal advice for [chuckling] Rechev Brown, who we heard at the beginning of this. Grocery store worker, he's worried about how he'd pay the bills if he stays home sick from work. Just in a couple of seconds, what would you say to him?

LIOR SAMFIRU: Well, he has obviously access to the Canada Sickness Benefit that's been implemented that provides for 450 dollars a week after taxes. To apply for that, otherwise, of course, speak with his employer. Perhaps his employer is able to provide him additional hours when he comes back to make up for the loss. Beyond that, at this point, certainly do not go to work under any circumstances if you are sick. That, by the way, could be cause for dismissal. So that's something that employees should be very careful about.

MATT GALLOWAY: Lior, it's good to speak with you. I really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

LIOR SAMFIRU: Thank you, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Lior Samfiru, an employment lawyer based in Toronto. Your thoughts on this welcome. You can email us: @thecurrent@cbc.ca. Your CBC News is next. And then,.

WOMAN: I recommend that bars and restaurants stop in-person, dine-in service and move exclusively to takeout and delivery service.

MATT GALLOWAY: That order came from the medical officer of health in Toronto ten months ago. Since then, around 10,000 bars and restaurants have closed across Canada. We'll talk about the future of those restaurants and bars, coming up after the news. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

Restaurants pivot during pandemic and look to the future

Guests: Dan Clapson, Conor Joerin, Joshna Maharaj

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, Lesley Stahl of "60 Minutes" on the impeachment of Donald Trump 2.0. But first, trying to keep an industry alive.

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MATT GALLOWAY: From shuttered bars and restaurants, to a whole new takeout... take on take on takeout. Last year saw a massive change to where, how and what we eat. And while that industry teeters on the edge of a kitchen knife, some of the pivots that bars and restaurants have made are actually working out. For their thoughts on where the industry is headed, and how we cook and eat at home in 2021, I'm joined by three people. Dan Clapson is The Globe and Mail's food critic and columnist for The Prairies, and the co-founder of Eat North. It's a food media company. Dan is in Calgary. Conor Joerin is the owner of two restaurants in Toronto, Sugo and Conzo Pizzeria. And Joshna Maharaj is a chef, author and food activist. She is in Toronto. Good morning to you all.

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Good morning.

DAN CLAPSON: Good morning.

CONOR JOERIN: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dan, when you take a look at how restaurants have changed because of this pandemic, what stands out the most for you?

DAN CLAPSON: I think the one thing that is the same across the board is that most restaurant operators really streamlined what they were doing, you know, so they really stopped chasing, you know, that it ingredient or that trendy cocktail, and tried to focus on what they did best, and also obviously what would work best in takeout. I think that was probably the main thing.

MATT GALLOWAY: What did that mean for you, Conor? I mean, you have a couple of restaurants. When this pandemic hit, what changed for you immediately?

CONOR JOERIN: We closed our doors immediately. And then, like Dan said, we started to streamline. So we got more efficient. We started to run with smaller teams for the health of our restaurant and also because margins changed. And then we invested in pieces of equipment to help make us a little more efficient, you know? So, yeah, those are two big changes for us as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: You there are a couple of things that happened to you. One is that you had to let go of a wine bar that you were in the midst of getting set to open up.

CONOR JOERIN: Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: What was that decision like to make?

CONOR JOERIN: It's a tough decision, for sure, you know, walking away from an investment like that, a dream like that, is it's a hard pill to swallow. It was a little easier when everyone else was, you know, going through it and as a community as a whole was losing a lot, so this year is sort of an exercise in loss. But I feel, you know, [clears throat] it's sort of this pandemic has sort of told us to pump the brakes a little bit and maybe that don't need to keep building at such a fast rate. We can slow down a little bit and enjoy, you know, the things we have right now.

MATT GALLOWAY: You use the word community there. You were a big part of the community in your city. And I know, because I saw the work that you were doing, you are were also donating meals early on in this pandemic. What was happening there?

CONOR JOERIN: When we had to close, we were left with a lot of food on our shelves. [clears throat] So when everything got shut down, supply chains stopped. There was lots of food everywhere. Our suppliers had food, our fridges were full of food. And there was a lot of, you know, people in our community who have had a hard time accessing food the best of times. And then because of the, you know, the uncertainty and fear, people were were having a hard time access food. So we turned the food in our restaurants, in our walk-in fridges into meals, and started delivering them to... to shelters, food banks, community centres, places where people could access food and then eventually to health care workers.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just the last point on this. I mean, there's been so much loss this year. And part of the loss can be the loss of a business. It can be the loss of a dream of opening another business. What have you been thinking about when it comes to loss over the last year?

CONOR JOERIN: It's... yeah, it's been an exercise in just letting go and being OK with it. And also, you know, just changing perspectives a little bit and realizing what we do have here. You know, it's... we have lost a lot, but we've also gained a lot socially. There's been a lot of change. There's been a lot of time for reflection, you know, and I think we've made some forward progress in human rights. Hopefully, people are starting to look at environmental issues, you know, some of the holes and some of the broken parts in our food systems. So I think we've gained a lot as a whole socially and as a community. You know, there's been some financial losses. But at the end of the day, that's not the most important thing, I don't think. So, you know, I think it's all perspective and how you look at loss, you know, often to grow, you have to lose lose something, so I think it's the thing at the end of the day.

MATT GALLOWAY: Joshna Maharaj, before I asking you about food, let me ask you just about how you're doing?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: You were posting on Twitter saying that you had just been diagnosed with COVID. Are you OK?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: I have. Thank you. Yes, I'm super grateful of the fact that my symptoms are very mild, and they have not gotten any worse since Tuesday when I got diagnosed. So I am hunkering down, and I have "The Great British Bake Off" with me to get through it.

MATT GALLOWAY: [Matt, Conor and Dan chuckle] I hope that helps, and I hope you stay healthy.

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Oh my God, it really does. Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: How do you... I mean, my kitchen has become the restaurant in my home. How have people in terms of the relation to food, how has that changed, do you think, over the last many months?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: I think a lot of changes have happened, but I think perhaps one of the most significant is people have a really increased sense of how their food gets to them.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Be it from a farm or from a grocery store, as our supply chains were sort of shifted and jostled, you know what I mean? And really taxed over this past time. People have a really keen sense of what it takes to get their food to them. And honestly, it's something that I've been kind of screaming and yelling about for a while. So it's actually... it's actually pretty great.

MATT GALLOWAY: What difference do you think that will make? I mean, we've spoken about, you know, the situation that's temporary foreign workers who are picking our fruits and vegetables find themselves in.

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: The people who are working in meat processing plants find themselves. And when people learn about that, when... when, you know, the light is shone on those industries, what happens, do you think?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: I think that people get, first, super surprised because they don't... they didn't realize that it was that bad, right? Or that these really exploitative, dangerous circumstances exist just to get some chicken to their house or, you know, to to the grocery store for them. And so I think that there is a bit of a... there's been a bit of a reckoning both internally as consumers and shoppers and eaters. And then there has been much broader thinking about what this system actually looks like?

MATT GALLOWAY: Have you done anything differently at home over the past year when it comes to food?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Yes, I really feel like I have had to walk my talk a lot, right? I'm the kind of person that's like, stay at home, get lost in the dreamy value of cooking. But when we're all forced into it, I feel like I have really had to force myself to do the same thing. And I'm sick and tired of eating my own food. [Matt laughs] But this is where we are right now. I live alone, and this is the game we're playing. And so it has been... it has been a great test for me to really walk my talk. And I, because I'm a dork, get lost in recipes, and I've been tackling like long recipes that take days to make.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dan, do you think our relationship with food at home has changed a lot? I mean, I know that you spend a lot of time out looking at restaurants and bars in The Prairies, but at home, where we're all stuck these days, has our relationship with food changed?

DAN CLAPSON: Oh, I would agree with Joshna's thoughts100 per cent. I also do cook a lot at home and do a lot of recipe development as well. So I think, if anything, the people that liked to cook pre-pandemic are excellent home cooks now because we had so much time to hone their skills at home. And I think I will say I think my friends that were not great at cooking or had minimal interest are still bad cooks and probably just order takeout. [Matt laughs] So I think the people that were bad are probably still bad, but I think the people that were good are probably great. So I think a result of that this year is I think that you will see home cooks willing to spend more money on local ingredients or ingredients that maybe are more top-shelf to cook with at home. And I think you'll see people spending more time on different culinary recipe projects at home, so willing to put in more time cooking.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about in those restaurants? I mean, there's been a real pivot because the restaurants have had to do this. Some have turned into grocery stores. Some are offering different kinds of takeout or, you know, if you're allowed to, cocktail takeout or what have you. What are the innovations that you have seen that you think might stick around?

DAN CLAPSON: Well, I think the pandemic really helped to shine a light on just how creative independent restauranteurs can be. And also, the community giveback aspect, I think, was amazing. Like, what Conor did, so many restauranteurs did that across the country. It was amazing. But outside of that, you know, there's there's no shortage of meal kits and cocktail kits across the country now. And I think at the beginning of the pandemic, a lot of places, again, just put them out to put them out. But now I think we've seen them become really elevated. I think Christmas dinner packages were a great example of that to wrap up the year. And I would say just in my social circle, most people I knew did not cook at home for Christmas. They supported a local restaurant by getting dinner picked up or brought to their house. And I think that will also flow into this year. You know, when things get, quote/unquote, normal again, I think we will see people opting for special occasion meals to be ordered from restaurants as opposed to cooking themselves.

MATT GALLOWAY: Conor, you have a takeout operation that's running out of Sugo now, and the pizzeria. Is takeout, and the pivot to takeout, enough, do you think, to save restaurants?

CONOR JOERIN: It's paying rent right now. And with, you know, wage subsidies and rent subsidies, a lot of places are hanging on, I think places that were overexpanded and, you know, big, resturant groups that weren't practising the business practises have started to close. But a lot of the smaller, owner-operated businesses, you know, there's enough there to hopefully make it through this and preserve the culture and community that they foster in their spaces.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are there changes that you have been able to implement in your restaurants that you would want to hang on to? I mean, I think of streetside dining, which for a lot of people was something that they had been pushing for for a long time. They'd seen it elsewhere. It'd been impossible. Suddenly, every restaurant has some sort of streetside patio set up. Is that something that you'd want to hang on to?

CONOR JOERIN: Yeah, absolutely. I think with the curbside patios, we saw a city come alive. It was wonderful. It was almost like watching a garden grow in front of your house. So the community seemed to love it. We really enjoyed interacting with people out on the street. Often, we have large line-ups in front of Sugo, and some friends of ours play music out front. And there's quite a lively scene out front. There's a community scene out front. So we were really excited about that. And we hope that continues, you know, and also spilling over into parks, you saw people picnicking, having wine and enjoying takeout and parks. The city came alive. And I think everyone enjoyed it, business owners and the community alike.

MATT GALLOWAY: You said that takeout allows you to pay the rent. But you also, you gave your staff a raise at the beginning of the pandemic. Why did you do that?

CONOR JOERIN: Yeah, all of our costs. So, everything costs more in the pandemic. The price of food went up. And then when we were looking at some of the, you know, the problems in our systems, you know, one of the things, I come from a cooking background, traditionally, there's, you know, a wage difference between front of house and back house. So immediately, we asked our cooks, the backbone of any restaurant, to come back to work. And it's a stressful time, you know, just getting to work right now incurs a heavy stress. There's, you know, it's a hard time to ask people to come to work. So we immediately gave everyone a raise just to, you know, help make it a little easier to come back to work. And we upped our prices a little bit to help with the incurred cost of higher food costs because of the interruptions in our food systems. And becoming more efficient also allowed us to offer our staff higher wages.

MATT GALLOWAY: Joshna, what are you hoping for? I mean, in light of what Conor's been saying, and what Dan's talked about in terms of innovation, whether it's, you know, the kinds of food the people are offering or how restaurants actually operate and how they treat the people who work in those restaurants, what are you hoping will be a lasting change to the industry that could come out of this time?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: I'm really excited about this kind of reform that we're hearing of precisely what colour is talking about, about rethinking wages and how we roll that out to consumers. And I think what's really going to be amazing is to see that people on every stage, both consumers, restaurateurs, farmers, suppliers, all along the chain, we're all going to make this little shift and this little adjustment. And the one is this is just going to be what's necessary. But I love the idea that we're going to do this together right? Our entire industry and community, we really we have to do this together, right? This is the only way we're going to get through this if we work with each other. And that, I see the spirit of that has really blossomed. And I'm super encouraged by that.

MATT GALLOWAY: In many parts of this country, going out to a restaurant to have dinner is a dream right now because restaurants are closed in many parts of this country. In places like British Columbia and parts of Atlantic Canada, though, they remain open. And so we asked some diners in Vancouver what it is that drives them to eat out, even during a pandemic. Have a listen to this.

WOMAN: When you're in a restaurant, it definitely feels like you get to be closer to the people you're with, and you get that experience of, like, connecting with people that you don't get when you, like, order out, definitely, for sure.

WOMAN#2: On Friday, I was in the restaurant, at the bar, with just a couple of us. We were sitting and chatting to each other, one of my closest friends, because I'm living alone. That's why I'm just so used to go to the restaurant and get socializing with everybody, just makes me so happy.

MAN: It's not just the food. It's more... it's even more than that. It's the experience, you know, about like talking to each other, like, having like a good time. It's not the place, it's the memories that we have in that place.

MAN#2: I think it's what makes us human. You know, we go out there and a lot of the time, you know, if you look at some of the greatest, you know, a lot of things have been done, you know, over meals. It's a very personal thing, you know? It's also what makes this Canadian, you know, in many ways, we're a melting pot. That's why I see them as so special. Is you're seeing cultures mixed together in a way that it's melting pot, you know? And food is a huge part of that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Conor Joerin, I have a friend who describes restaurants as kind of a magic act. That there's the food, but then there's much more. I've stood in the line in front of your restaurant. You talked about the long lines. And I've been in that tiny little box of a space where people are kind of crammed in on top of each other. What do you miss from the before times for restaurants? When you could go out on a Thursday or Friday or Saturday night and be part of that? What do you miss most about that?

CONOR JOERIN: I think just the connection to the community, to my neighbours, to the people that live in my community, exchanging smiles, words, laughter, jokes, breaking bread, being part of people's celebrations. You know, watching family celebrate birthdays, anniversaries, first dates. And then restaurants, just the spirit of community in a restaurant that lives in them through the food, through the music, through the conversations people are having. So just that real connection, that human experience. And I think we all miss that a lot in our communities. We're managing to stay in touch online, but there's a bit of disconnect right now. So just that raw human connexion and that human spirit that's so important for our health.

MATT GALLOWAY: How worried are you about losing that? This is not just an interruption, but for a lot of places, they're not going to make it, and they're not going to be able to come back when we get out of this thing. How worried are you about losing that?

CONOR JOERIN: I think we we are going to, you know, obviously we're going to lose some restaurants. And, you know, I'm saddened that a lot of people have lost so much, but I'm hopeful. Humans, we're such social creatures. If you look at the history after any sort of interruption, whether it's a pandemic or 9/11, restaurants come back strong, and people can't wait to get back and connect with each other, to break bread, to celebrate, to communicate, to talk about new ideas in the future. So I'm hopeful the spaces will come back. There will obviously be some changes to the way we operate and health guidelines and everything like that. But I'm definitely hopeful. And, you know, restaurants are here to stay. They're not going to go away. They're an expression of our humanity and culture and and community. So I can't see them leaving. And, you know, it's just a waiting game right now it feels like.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dan Clapson, we can cook at home. We could order in. What do we lose when we aren't able to go out to eat?

DAN CLAPSON: Oh, like, what I wouldn't give for a pint of beer, you know? [Matt and Dan laugh] This is just like the little things you realize that you miss, you know? And I think I've I've realized you can order a lot of takeout, yes. But there's certain things that you just don't want to make yourself and are just not the same in a box. So outside of just missing the, of course, I miss the atmosphere of a restaurant or a bar, you know, sitting at the pub with friends or having dinner with my partner out. But I think one thing that's interesting, too, is that people maybe might not realize that restaurants also support a lot of other creative industries. So when you're looking at an independent restaurant, they might hire a local illustrator every two months to redo their seasonal menus, or they might be topping a fashion designer to update aprons and whatnot. And I think because restaurants aren't able to operate like normal, all these other creative industries, music obviously, too, a lot of restaurants and bars employ musicians. So I think that is what I also miss, is that support within the creative industries. So I really hope that things get back to normal.

MATT GALLOWAY: Conor's optimistic, but are you confident that the support is there to help the industry recover?

DAN CLAPSON: You mean currently, or once everything's --

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, I mean, part of it is just, you know, hanging on, but then once things get back into place, I mean, these places are going to need support as well. And there have been calls from industry, from, you know, restaurant groups across the country, the save hospitality movement, to ensure that these places don't go dark forever. Is that support there, do you think?

DAN CLAPSON: Well, I think currently the most important thing is if it is within your means, you should be ordering takeout. And obviously, if it's further within your means, if you can pick up the food from the restaurant as opposed to using a delivery app, that's the best way to go for sure. If restaurants are now making, this is a huge trend now, a lot of restaurants and bars have their own packaged products, so they might make their own sauces or syrups for cocktails and whatnot. Those are great options to stock your pantry as well. Every little bit helps the restaurant for sure. You know, once things are done, I don't think restaurants and bars are going to have trouble getting people in the door. Like, I'm going to be standing outside of my favourite restaurant the minute it opens, you know? I think a lot of people have that mentality.

MATT GALLOWAY: Joshna, food means things to everybody. And it's not just going to eat. I mean, it's also people who could not afford to go out to eat, but they still rely on food to, you know, provide community, to provide fellowship, in addition to providing fuel. How have you seen that change over the course of this pandemic with the organizations that you know very well?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: It has been a real challenge, Matt. Because The Stop is an organization you know well, and I'm connected to well here. And one of the most important functions that The Stop offers is a reduction in social isolation, right? We really got that from a survey a few years ago. And my response to that was like, what are you talking about? The most important thing we do is give... is the food. But the truth is the food is just a tool, right? The food is a tool to enable people to connect to each other. So now, those lovely folks have had to figure out ways to to maintain social connections in a moment where we have to reduce, you know, reduce those connections. So the amount that's riding on that takeout package of food right now is higher than it's ever been. And I've even seen folks who started writing notes to people on the outside of the containers just to put a bit of that emotional social piece in, as well as the good nutrition. And that... it's a real challenge for them.

MATT GALLOWAY: When we get out of this, I'll ask you all this in the last couple of minutes that we have, I mean, when we get out of this, what's the first thing that you want to do when it comes to... we're talking about, you know, the place of restaurants in our culture? Joshna where do you want to go, and what do you want to eat?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Where do I want to go? You know what? Oh, man! I am dying to go and eat a Richmond Station burger in the restaurant with all of my smiley... to see my people, right? One of the delights of restaurants to me is to walk in and see my people's faces, and I am dying to go and sit down at a restaurant and see all of them.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dan, you mentioned the pint of beer. Aside from that, what else do you want when we get through this?

DAN CLAPSON: Well, I don't think beer will sustain me alone. [Dan and Matt laughs] So, I'm a huge fan of Vietnamese food, and Calgary, has an amazing Vietnamese restaurant community here, so I will go have a ball of pho for sure.

MATT GALLOWAY: And what will that give you? I mean, you could, again, you could make that at home, but what would that give you in the restaurant?

DAN CLAPSON: Again, I just think there is something special about getting it in that, you know, big ceramic bowl with a pile of herbs and beans, sprouts and whatnot on the side. And again, yes, you can order it with takeout, but by the time you transport it home, I find it's not quite the same. So I just... I just love that aroma of a piping hot bowl of pho. And, yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to most, and probably going to Vietnam as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: Conor, what about you? What are you looking forward to when you can open your doors again?

CONOR JOERIN: I'm looking forward to just seeing seeing the community, watching people break bread together, and, you know, tuck into a big plate together. And like Dan, I miss Vietnamese food very much, travelling to Vietnam as well as, you know, like a hot pot or salad rolls, where you're you're carrying food with your fingers and wrapping up salad rolls with a love for the people you're sharing the meal with that. That connection over food is something I miss dearly.

MATT GALLOWAY: Simple pleasures, noodles and burgers. It's great to speak with you all about this. Thank you very much.

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Thank you.

DAN CLAPSON: Thanks so much!

CONOR JOERIN: Thank you all very much.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dan Clapson, Globe and Mail's food critic and columnist for The Prairies, and co-founder of Eat North. Conor Joerin is the owner of the Toronto restaurants Sugo and Conzo Pizzeria. Joshna Maharaj, chef, author and food activist in Toronto. What do you miss most about restaurants? Make us hungry. Let us know through the email: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Or you can tweet us: @TheCurrentCBC. Coming up after your regional update, with less than a week left in his presidency, Donald Trump has been the first president to be impeached twice. In 90 seconds, veteran "60 Minutes" journalist Lesley Stahl on what comes next, for Trump and for her country. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Journalist Lesley Stahl on covering Trump

Guests: Lesley Stahl, Bruce Hoffman

MATT GALLOWAY: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

MAN: We cannot wait until January 20th, Donald Trump must be removed.

WOMAN: It is impossible for the Senate to remove him before his term expires. So what is the point?

WOMAN#2: All time for debate has expired. Those in favour say aye. [a chorus of aye] Those opposed say no. [a chorus of no]. In the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it.

MATT GALLOWAY: The eyes of much of the world were on Washington yesterday, as the U.S. House of Representatives voted to impeach Donald Trump for the second time. Forty-six years ago, as a young reporter, Leslie Stahl watched another president, Richard Nixon, face impeachment. Now, she is amongst the top journalists in America. As a correspondent for "60 Minutes". Lesley Stahl, good morning.

LESLEY STAHL: Good morning. Hi, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: What a pleasure to have you on the program.

LESLEY STAHL: How lovely!

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you make of this moment? A president impeached for the second time.

LESLEY STAHL: I guess what I make of it is an enormous sense of sadness, and I guess a little fear. We're right at that moment where we don't know what direction the United States democracy, I guess, is going to go. We're right at that moment where it can either be completely reined back in under the leadership of a new president, or we can just devolve into more violence. And we don't know.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you worry about the health of of democracy? I spoke with the journalist and historian Jill Lepore yesterday on the program, and she said that she's worried about democracy, that it's fragile. Are you worried about that?

LESLEY STAHL: Of course. And that's why I say we're at this pivot point where we don't know what direction our democracy is going to go in. More and more people are writing about the rise and fall of the Roman Empire, and it's chilling and sad.

MATT GALLOWAY: You've interviewed Donald Trump three times now, the most recent --.

LESLEY STAHL: Four times! [slight chuckle].

MATT GALLOWAY: Four times, pardon me! [both chuckle].

LESLEY STAHL: Four times.

MATT GALLOWAY: Four times. The most recent of those four times was when he walked out in the midst of the interview just before the election in November. He wasn't happy with the tough questions that you were asking him. Did anything that you heard in that conversation give you any idea of the chaos that was about to be unleashed upon your country?

LESLEY STAHL: No, but... and I wasn't surprised by anything. Almost everything he said, almost, was a repeat of things he had said before that weren't true. You know, my... some of the people on my team were disappointed because I had a very broad-ranging interview planned. I wanted to ask him about some foreign policy issues, some economic issues, but I got hung up on his untruths. And every time he said something that wasn't true, I challenged it. That's what got him so annoyed because it was one challenge after the next. So I wasn't surprised. Everything I heard, I'd heard before. And I did not have any idea that he would act the way he's acted since the election. I know he was saying and sort of insinuating that the election would be stolen, but I had no sense whatsoever that he would take it this far.

MATT GALLOWAY: You spoke with him in 2016, just as he was about to be named the nominee, and you asked him why he attacked the media in the way that he did? [Lesley laughs] He said that he does it to discredit you and demean you all so that when you write negative stories about me, no one will believe you.

LESLEY STAHL: Right.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you think he was successful in that?

LESLEY STAHL: Yes, sadly. And he did it not only to the institution of the press, but he did it to law enforcement. He did it to the intelligence community. He just went after a lot of our institutions. And that's why I'm saying I fear, I fear for the future. I'm reading, just now read an article about his approval ratings. And while they've dropped in the wake of this violence, they haven't dropped that much. You know, he has his core support. It's at least a full-third of the country, at least a full-third of the country. And a continuing something like 70 per cent of the Republican Party. He's dipped only a little, so he leaves with this what... what a lot of people think is a scar on him because of what happened at the Capitol, but not a very deep one, it seems to me, in terms of opinion.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you talk about those institutions, and I mean the media and journalism, part of the role is to hold him to account. He talked about the media as the enemy of the people. And we saw in the Congress when people were leaving on one of the doors it said: "murder the media". What is the effect of... of... of that? When he calls the media the enemy the people, and then you see something like that in the wake of... of you know, an attack, a riot on the seat of democracy. What's the effect of that?

LESLEY STAHL: Well, people don't believe us. You know, what's happened, and this is a little away from Donald Trump, but because it's been happening for a long time, and that is the word media. The word media encompasses us at "60 Minutes" and the mainstream media. But it also encompasses all the cable shows. It encompasses Rush Limbaugh. You know, it encompasses the far-right. It encompasses the far-left, in their opinion, their performers. And they have strong opinions that they wear on their sleeves, but they're called media. And so [scoff] we are thrown into that salad bowl and tarred with the brush that we're opinionated, all of us, even those of us who try so hard not to be, not saying we don't have opinions, but we really try to report down the middle. But we're tarred with that because people call us the media. So it's not all Donald Trump. The lack of trust in us has been growing for years now, years.

MATT GALLOWAY: When you take a look at those approval ratings, I mean, he told you something about his base. He said that his base is not a base. It's a movement.

LESLEY STAHL: Yes, he did. He did. More than once.

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, do you feel, I mean, when you take a look at those approval ratings, when you take a look at the fact that 71 million people-plus voted for him in the last election. Is that a movement to you?

LESLEY STAHL: It is. It is. And you saw the effect of his hold on that movement last Wednesday when they rampaged at the Capitol. Yes, of course, it's a movement. And when he said it, not to me, but he said to somebody, you know, I could go out on Fifth Avenue and kill somebody, and they'd still support me. It appears to be true. And he's done so many things as president that you wake up and you say, well, that's it, you know, he's finished, he can't survive this. And he does. And he may survive this, meaning that he goes off to Mar-a-Lago, and starts campaigning for 2024.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you think that that's possible, that he could run again in 2024?

LESLEY STAHL: Well, you know, I'm a little confused about our Constitution. Under which people in Congress are saying they can convict him after he leaves office, it's not 100 per cent clear. There's an argument that the clause says remove and disqualify him from running again. And some scholars say that those are two separate things. Removal is one thing. And obviously, if he's convicted, he will already have been removed. But they argue there's a second clause that says disqualify, but it's not entirely clear that it's a second clause. So it's debated. But I think that the urge to convict him after he leaves office is to make sure he doesn't run again. My question is if he self-pardons himself, [slight chuckle] does he... Does it obviate a conviction in the Senate? I don't know.

MATT GALLOWAY: Or if Joe Biden were to pardon him.

LESLEY STAHL: [laughing] That's not going to happen.

MATT GALLOWAY: You don't think so? I mean, it's interesting. People talk about kind of a national healing in the United States when Nixon left, and Gerald Ford pardoned him.

LESLEY STAHL: Yeah, but they were of the same party.

MATT GALLOWAY: Hmm.

LESLEY STAHL: No, Biden's not going to pardon him. There's no way that's going to happen. What could happen is he self-pardons, or he agrees to leave as long as Pence pardons him, you know? But the question is, if he's convicted, and he's been self-pardoned or pardoned by the vice president, does that mean that he can run again? So those are big questions still out there.

MATT GALLOWAY: How do you understand, I mean, if he were to run again, there were a number of people who probably would vote for him again, millions of people. How do you understand the divisions in your country?

LESLEY STAHL: Yeah, I don't. Well, part of it is social media, which has been a polarizing force. It has driven people more and more into their corners and into extreme positions because they can go and read what they... what appeals to them, what they already think. They can go and have their views endorsed and radicalized. And that's a big part of it. And I don't know how you rein that in? You know, I did see after Watergate, Gerald Ford came in. And somewhat like Joe Biden, he's a... he was a calming personality. There wasn't hate in his soul. He was a lovely man. And the country settled down. There was division. There was a lot of polarization then. And, you know, it was like a boil that Gerald Ford, you know, punctured, and it was almost overnight. And I keep praying that... that we still... that can still happen. When I when we started this conversation, I said, I don't know.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

LESLEY STAHL: I think we're at that moment where that could happen because Joe Biden is that calming person. But then again, these forces have been unleashed. So, I don't know?

MATT GALLOWAY: I was going to say, I mean, I just wonder what like... what his biggest challenges in the months ahead? If Joe Biden sees himself as a unifier, and has talked about the idea of working with different people over the course of his career, is something like that even possible in 2021?

LESLEY STAHL: Right. Good question. [both laughing] I don't know? You know, I do think it's possible in Congress. In a way, I think that this riot that it took place up there and so many Republicans were cowering under the seats in the House and in the Senate in fear that... that it may have jolted something, you know, like an electrical spark and maybe changed the molecules a little bit. That's very possible. You hear Mitch McConnell, who's the soon to be minority leader in our Senate, he has shown some interest in a trial in the Senate. Of course, he won't be in charge after Trump leaves, so there will be a trial because the Democrats will be in charge. Anyway, you know what's interesting to me is that the reason that the Democrats now control all three branches of government is because of Donald Trump. And Republican lawmakers may come to resent that. We'll see. I don't know?

MATT GALLOWAY: It's impossible to turn away from and I mean, it must just as a personal question, I mean, this having done what you've done over the course of your career is this would still gets you excited about the work that you do, that in some ways you don't know.

LESLEY STAHL: You know, I used to cover Washington, and I covered the White House for ten years, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and George Herbert Walker Bush, the beginning of his term. And yeah, I woke up every day, both turned on by what was happening, but also adrenaline flowed because it was a deadline every day. At "60 Minutes", it's not quite like that, you know?

MATT GALLOWAY: Mmm-hmm.

LESLEY STAHL: Usually, it takes us a couple of weeks to put our stories together. I just interviewed Nancy Pelosi, who's the speaker of the House.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

LESLEY STAHL: And we did that in a day. That was kind of an astonishment at "60 Minutes" that you could turn a story around so quickly. So my adrenaline was definitely flowing at the importance of the story and the deadline pressure, so.

MATT GALLOWAY: Leslie Stahl, what a pleasure to talk to you. I really appreciate your perspective on this moment that we are all watching. Thank you very much.

LESLEY STAHL: It's a pleasure, Matt. Nice to talk to you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Leslie Stahl, correspondent for CBS News, "60 Minutes". She was in New York. Yesterday's impeachment of President Trump comes, as she mentioned, as fear and suspicion still hangs over a now very heavily guarded Capitol. And as more information comes out about last week's attack on the Capitol, more questions are being raised about how it happened and about the involvement of former and current members of police and military personnel. Bruce Hoffman has studied terrorism and insurgencies for the past 45 years. He a Shelby Culham and Catherine W. Davis senior fellow for counterterrorism and homeland security at the Council on Foreign Relations. Bruce Hoffman, good morning to you.

BRUCE HOFFMAN: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: As an expert on terrorism, just briefly, what was going through your mind as you watched those images of the attack on the Capitol last Wednesday?

BRUCE HOFFMAN: I think it was difficult for any American and indeed have friends and allies overseas not to be absolutely horrified that this citadel or bastion of democracy, this enormously important institution in American history, was overrun and vandalized and damaged and the lives of our elected representatives threatened to the extent that they were last week. So, one of horror.

MATT GALLOWAY: There's been debate over the language that should be applied here and whether or not the people who attacked the Capitol are domestic terrorists. Is that the right language?

BRUCE HOFFMAN: Terrorism is always best defined by the nature of the act itself, rather than the identity of the perpetrator or their cause. And if you look at U.S. legal code and indeed the FBI's definition, and the FBI, of course, is the lead agency in the United States responsible for counterterrorism. It specifically cites violence or the threat of violence to coerce and intimidate a population or government, thereby to affect policy. So by that definition, clearly, what occurred at the U.S. Capitol last Wednesday was terrorism. Whether we want to call the individuals who did it terrorism or not is... is immaterial. It was an act of terrorism.

MATT GALLOWAY: There have been real concerns raised about the presence of former and current members of the police and the military supporting right-wing extremists. What threat does that pose to the nation?

BRUCE HOFFMAN: Well, clearly, we saw it on our TV screens last week, you had persons with the organizational skills, with the discipline, with the command and communication abilities, wearing body armour, carrying both actual weapons or makeshift weapons or plastic ties. And you saw the planning and the orchestration that could really have resulted in a disaster had it not been for the U.S. Capitol Police, and Capitol staffers, who I think really did avert what could have been a very, very serious situation that would have been beyond the pale of one's imagination if the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, or other members of Congress were somehow seized hostage... or senators were seized as hostages.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's not just members of law enforcement. I mean, House Democrat Mikie Sherrill claims that she witnessed members of Congress who are leading groups through the Capitol in the days before the riots for what she was calling reconnaissance. What do you make of that kind of accusation?

BRUCE HOFFMAN: Yes, I seen those as well. Unfortunately, no surprise. We're talking about a country that is deeply divided, that is politically polarized, where in many respects, not just the rhetoric, but the actual violence itself has been legitimized and justified, where people see themselves as revolutionaries, as true patriots. So it's not surprising that there would be members of Congress who have openly expressed those types of views, actually implementing them or facilitating it. But I want to caution, this is something that is the subject of an investigation now.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

BRUCE HOFFMAN: We don't know that this is for certain. But given the rhetoric, I don't think it would surprise people.

MATT GALLOWAY: What does it mean if those extremists have an ally in the president of the United States?

BRUCE HOFFMAN: Well, the president has essentially weaponized these people. I mean, certainly, President Trump, in his speech on the Ellipse just before his followers marched down Pennsylvania Avenue, whether he deliberately intended or not, it was taken by those protesters and demonstrators as a green light to run rampant. He told them to descend on the Capitol. So for them, it's been like pushing an open door. We can trace this back to the 2017 "Unite The Right" rally in Charlottesville, where President Trump avoided condemning the individuals and the groups that came there precisely to engage in violence. Almost... that was a carbon copy. That was a harbinger of what happened to the United States Capitol last week.

MATT GALLOWAY: He leaves office in under a week. But there are many people who believe that whether it's people in his own party or the sentiments that are around, that that's going to hang around for a long time. How much of this continues to be fuelled by the messages that he has displayed and dispersed?

BRUCE HOFFMAN: I think the divisions in the United States and the political polarization that has divided Americans is not something that is specific to President Trump's term in office. This is something that is going to continue not just for weeks or months past President-elect Biden's inauguration. But I would hazard to say that it's going to continue for years, if not for a decade. The last time America was riven with this sort of divisiveness was, of course, over the Vietnam War. There were signal political actions that could be taken. We withdrew from Indochina. We ended a universal conscription. We gave the vote to 18-year-olds. It's hard to see what specific legislative initiatives can be enacted that would have the same kind of calming effect. And let me caution you that, you know, even with all those legislative initiatives on a much more modest level, we had a terrorist campaign at the time by radical leftists that lasted from the late 1960s to the early 1980s. So we're in for, I think, a long period of instability in the United States. Unfortunately, that's the reality.

MATT GALLOWAY: You talk about a calming effect. The House voted to impeach the president yesterday. What would that mean for the extremists who support him?

BRUCE HOFFMAN: Well, it's just... it's just more evidence that the system, as it were, is dedicated against them and that they have no voice. And it is that sense of disenfranchisement and disillusionment with the current system of governance in the United States that, of course, has given rise to this grassroots movement, parts of which descended on Washington, D.C. last week. And one has to say, planning to descend on Washington, D.C. in virtually every state capital in the United States in the coming days.

MATT GALLOWAY: I was going to say, how concerned are you about what could be happening in the days ahead? People have looked, not just to Inauguration, and we can talk about that in a moment, but also in the days leading up to the Inauguration.

BRUCE HOFFMAN: Well, unfortunately, all the rhetoric from the president and I think some of the rhetoric that we heard yesterday in the debate in the House of Representatives over impeachment validates these people's view that the system is so rot and so corrupt that only violence by true, quote/unquote, true patriots can rescue the United States from this abyss. So I don't see anyone throttling back in their extremism, in their vitriol and perhaps in their commitment to violence. The one thing I'll say is that the authorities will certainly be far better prepared to deal with whatever occurs in Washington, D.C., or across state capitals than they were last week. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that there might not be repetitions, perhaps not as serious incidents of violence, but nonetheless, outbursts of violence.

MATT GALLOWAY: What would you expect to see then next Wednesday when Joe Biden is inaugurated as president of the United States?

BRUCE HOFFMAN: I actually think that the Inauguration may pass without incident. I'm more worried in the lead-up to the Inauguration. Maybe the Inauguration is the kind of event, especially this year, that is being reimagined. It's not going to have the parade or the massive crowds or the festivities that normally attend an Inauguration simply because of the COVID pandemic. So it probably will be easier to police and secure than previous ones. And always, when there's a focus on a specific national event like that, we can count on a massive security presence, but also the intense focus on securing it. It's these disparate countrywide events over the next few days that, of course, include Washington, D.C., that I think will be more challenging because they're less predictable and they can move all over the city or cities.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's great to speak with you this morning, Bruce. I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

BRUCE HOFFMAN: You're very welcome.

MATT GALLOWAY: Bruce Hoffman is a senior fellow for counterterrorism and homeland security at the Council on Foreign Relations. That is The Current for this morning. Coming up next on CBC Radio One its "Q". Canada Reads is back. Five panellists' short-listed books will be revealed. That's coming up in just a few moments on your CBC Radio One, something for you to read in these pandemic times. We're going to leave you with some music, and some sad news from the music world. The legendary folk musician, longtime activist Curtis "Shingoose" Jonnie died on Tuesday morning, 74 years old, had tested positive for COIVD-19. Shingoose is Ojibwe from the Roseau River Anishinaabe First Nation, was inducted into the Manitoba Music Hall of Fame in 2012. And we'll leave you with his song, "Silver River". This is from the 1975 album "Native Country". My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take care. And we will talk to you again tomorrow.

[Music: "Silver River" by Shingoose/Folk rock]

January 14, 2020 Episode Transcript

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