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The Current Transcript for January 14=5, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

JAMES COMEY: I know he's made a statement about that he will not intervene in the decisions of the Department of Justice. And I think that's healthy. The pardon power rests with him alone. And so he'll have an opportunity when he's in office to explain how he thinks about that. I think it's prudent for him to leave decisions about investigations and prosecutions to the Department of Justice, because one of the problems we've had over the last four years is that it's come to be seen as a partisan arm of the president, and that is a corrosive thing for an institution of justice.

MATT GALLOWAY You've suggested that Joe Biden should consider pardoning Donald Trump. People's eyebrows shot off their heads when you said that. Why would you say that that's worth consideration?

JAMES COMEY: He should at least think about it the same way that Gerald Ford, president right after Nixon resigned, thought about it and made the hard decision to pardon Nixon in actually similar circumstances, as he explained, to try and help a rising country move forward and deal with the tremendous problems before it. It absolutely crushed his public approval at the time. And history has proven public approval to be wrong, and him to have been a wise leader. So I don't know whether Joe Biden should pardon Donald Trump, but he should at least think about it and explain his reasoning. I could imagine if he makes a decision to do it, it's about not just that need to move forward and away from a fallen and corrupt president, but what a pardon signifies. I mean, our Supreme Court in 1915 said, if you're pardoned and you accept that pardon, it's an admission of guilt. And that's an important vehicle for accountability as well that people often don't talk about.

MATT GALLOWAY You write that on one hand, you feel guilty about leaving the FBI after you were fired by Donald Trump, but on the other hand, you were relieved. Why were you relieved had being fired?

JAMES COMEY: I was relieved to be away from a really bad person who is president of the United States. And who, in my four months with him, tested me constantly trying to see if I would bend and if I would be in my institution. And I knew that exhausting, anxiety-producing experience would go on and on and on. And so I was relieved in a way not to have the burden of trying to protect the institution, the rule of law from this criminal president.

MATT GALLOWAY Why do you think that so many people in the administration, people who knew the character and the dangers of this president and they saw it in broad daylight, why do you think they went along with him for so many years?

JAMES COMEY: I don't know for sure. It obviously has a lot to do with the character of each individual and the threshold matter Donald Trump didn't attract to him in the main people of great ability or great character, and so they came in a lot of them a little bent, to begin with. But he also has, by virtue of his role and his way of operating as a person, a way of bending. He's the president of the United States, lying constantly at the people gathered around his desk, almost never letting them speak. And by virtue of that, that wind of lies that he was blowing at them constantly and the power of his office, bending them to his will and allowing them to tell themselves stories, as all humans do, that I'm bending because my country needs me to survive in this role because I'm so important to the nation. And so I'll go along. I'll go along. I'll go along And then he's eaten your soul, and you're the attorney-general of the United States walking across Lafayette Square, violently cleared so the president can hold a Bible up.

MATT GALLOWAY What do you make of how the attorney-general conducted himself, William Barr, in that position?

JAMES COMEY: I think he disgraced the Department of Justice.

MATT GALLOWAY Is that just about him, or is that about a longtail effect on how people see the Department of Justice?

JAMES COMEY: He's someone who's stained the Department of Justice internally and externally. So his reputation will never recover. But the departments will recover. It will snap back very quickly. There's a hunger to return to the business of nonpartisan law enforcement. The longer part to fix will be the public perception of the department because so many people internalized the lies about it and its operations.

MATT GALLOWAY And it's not just William Barr, but there are a number of other people who were close to Donald Trump, who in the remaining days of his presidency have stepped aside, said, oh, this is too much. I want nothing to do with him and have called him out.

JAMES COMEY: I have two reactions. One is, OK, that's good. But wow. So where have you been? I mean, have you been alive the last four years? And so I find I'm a little sceptical by nature, but I'm particularly sceptical of those people who appear to be rechroming themselves on the way out the door. My kids have an expression that I gather cool people know that I didn't know, which is keep the receipts. It's going to be really important to keep the receipts and remember these people, because you're going to be shocked six months from now how few people even remember working with Donald Trump or for Donald Trump. Keep the receipts.

MATT GALLOWAY You say that in the book, amoral leaders have a way of revealing the character of those around them. What did it reveal about you being near Donald Trump?

JAMES COMEY: I think in the main I did what my parents would have wanted me to do. I was raised by parents, used to say difficult times. You have to stand up and be counted. Actually never knew exactly what they meant by that. But I think they meant don't bend. And look, I bent a little. I bent tactically a few times. I bent when he demanded my loyalty, and I tried to avoid it by silence. And then I avoided it by telling him, you'll always get honesty from me. And then I bent a little by saying, agreeing when he said he wanted honest loyalty. And I did that convincing myself that I needed that tactic to avoid a war with the president.

MATT GALLOWAY Why didn't you watch the results of the election when Donald Trump was elected? You write in the book that you went to bed, and your wife woke you up in the middle of the night and told you that he'd won.

JAMES COMEY: Because I knew no matter what happened, I was still going to be FBI director. And I didn't see myself as serving a particular president. I saw myself as serving the nation. And also, I'm a maniac for sleep. I can't make sound decisions if I'm really tired. And the FBI director job is all about making hard decisions. So I knew whatever was coming, I was going to need rest. And if I stayed up till 3:00 in the morning, it was going to be a very difficult week.

MATT GALLOWAY How much of that was about trying to put your head under the pillow in light of the fierce attacks that you had been under from Democrats for sending the letter to Congress, what, eleven days before the election, saying that there was new information discovered pertinent to the investigation into Hillary Clinton's email, and that the case was being reopened?

JAMES COMEY: Yeah, I don't think it was about that. I mean, what you described is a reality, but no pillow was going to help me with that. I was at that point at peace with the decision. I knew it sucked, but I was confident. And actually, five years on, four years on, I still think it was the right decision, although it still sucks, in my view. It was the least bad alternative that we faced at that time.

MATT GALLOWAY You say telling Congress this, that information, shortly before an election was a terrible thing, but better, in my view, than the catastrophic choice of perpetuating a lie to the American people and their representatives. You still believe that?

JAMES COMEY: I do. It pains me to be involved. Every moment of Donald Trump's presidency just increases the pain. Even with the benefit of hindsight, I don't think the FBI, having told Congress and the American people this investigation is done. It's done. You can trust us, go away, go away, could conceal from Congress that that was no longer true.

MATT GALLOWAY You write about it again in this new book. And I just wonder whether there was something unsettled in your mind that you had to try and address and going back to it a second time?

JAMES COMEY: No, actually, I wanted to leave it out [laughing] because it's... it's that nightmare I can't awaken from. But I was convinced by my editor readers that I needed it because the chronology didn't make sense otherwise, because I talked for the first time in this book about the Russia investigation, which I didn't talk about in the last book. And some of the key parts of the Clinton case overlapped.

MATT GALLOWAY Four or five years later, I mean, you say tonight. You can't wake up from, but practically, how does that decision affect your life now?

JAMES COMEY: Well, my day-to-day life, it doesn't affect at all, but I continue to run into people who hate me for reasons that I guess I understand, though I don't think they really understand what was involved in those decisions.

MATT GALLOWAY I want to ask you about the state of the United States. The cliche is it's an incredibly divided nation right now, and that's obvious. But you write in the book, there are many Americans of goodwill who believe the Department of Justice and the FBI were part of a corrupt deep state plot to hurt Trump. Why do you believe that they are Americans of goodwill?

JAMES COMEY: Because I know some of them. I mean, some of them are related to me. I mean, I married Amazing Woman from Iowa. She has relatives in Iowa who have internalized those truths. Now, they try to separate it from me personally, like I know Jim's a good guy, but the deep state. They're not criminals. They're not Proud Boys. They're just people trapped in a fog of lies. A lot of people are. So that's why I say that.

MATT GALLOWAY This is a book about a number of things, but it really is about trust. How do you go about restoring that trust? How do you tell those people of goodwill that they've been taken?

JAMES COMEY: Very carefully and slowly. Because the hardest thing for a human being to do, I'll speak for myself, all of us, is to admit when we're wrong. And instead of yelling at them that they're idiots or criminals or racists, you have to find there's a lot of people need to yell that at. But I'm talking about the millions of people who I otherwise think are people of goodwill. They're just been defrauded. You have to coax them out of that. Show them their way out of that. And you do that with the kind of leader we now have in the United States. I think they will see what competent, empathetic leadership looks like.

MATT GALLOWAY People are already beginning to muse about how Donald Trump will be remembered. Knowing him as you do, as somebody who served for him, was fired by him. How do you think he'll be remembered?

JAMES COMEY: I think he'll be remembered as the worst president in the history of the United States. As the only president who was impeached twice as a measure of just how bad he was. And of an enormous mistake that America made. And, like I said, I think the receipts will slowly, even... even if we try to keep them, will be gone over time. People will be shocked when they look back one hundred years from now. How many people voted for Donald Trump. And will be really embarrassed by him, his presidency.

MATT GALLOWAY What about yourself? You're an historic figure now because of the decisions you made as the FBI director. And I mean, you talk about people hating you. The right hates you because they say you're part of this deep state conspiracy that tried to undermine Donald Trump. The left hates you, or much of the left hates you, because of the decision to reopen the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails. How do you think you'll be written about in history books?

JAMES COMEY: Well, if I am, I think it'll be something like that. But I think in the main, even those... I guess I can't speak for the right. Even those people on the left, I think, believe that I'm an honest person. I'm just an idiot, I think. And so I think I'll be remembered as a public servant who tried to get it right. I hope I'll be remembered as a really good dad, husband and increasingly a good and practised grandfather.

MATT GALLOWAY James Comey, it's a real pleasure to speak with you. Thank you very much.

JAMES COMEY: Thanks for having me, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY James Comey was the director of the FBI from 2013 to 2017. His new book is called "Saving Justice: Truth, Transparency and Trust". Your CBC News is next. And then,.

WOMAN: Another coping strategy that I turn to is being more active in the kitchen. So cooking more, baking, more, risk-taking with recipes. Reading is also something I've been trying to do a lot of. Get some fresh air. Stay active in really minimal amount of space.

MATT GALLOWAY How to cope through this pandemic so we don't create another one, a mental health crisis. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in six minutes.

[Music: Theme]

Finding ways to cope in pandemic winter

Guest: Angie Elliot, Shimi Kang, Micheal Ungar

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, what do you get when you take a tarp, some water, freezing cold weather and a bit of space? Still thinking about it? I'll give you a hint. It's a recipe more and more Canadians are turning to this winter. The answer in 30 minutes. But first, coping with COVID.

[Music: Theme]

MATT GALLOWAY: January often isn't the best month for anyone. The holidays are over, the days are short, the weather's cold. We're in the midst of a global pandemic. And it's no wonder, given all of that, that so many of us are struggling with just about everything. In a moment, two professionals are here to lend some advice. But first, Angie Elliott has tackled feelings like this before, and she joins me now from her home in Oshawa, Ontario. Angie, good morning.

ANGIE ELLIOT: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: How are you doing? You know what?

ANGIE ELLIOT: I'm doing very well, all things considered.

MATT GALLOWAY: I mean, it's a loaded question these days. So I ask it, you know, given the fact that we're all sort of in this situation. Before the pandemic, you went through a major mental health crisis. Just briefly, tell me more about that and what happened?

ANGIE ELLIOT: Well, in 2016, I had a cluster of symptoms that left me, at best, dizzy and breathless. And at worst, collapsed unconscious several times a week. And even after several trips to the E.R., no one could pinpoint a root cause. And because all of my medical tests came back normal, I was put on a year-long waiting list for mental health services at my local hospital. So off I went home to wait for my turn. But days turned into weeks of me getting sicker and sicker, and we got to the point where I felt like I was becoming a burden to my family and friends, and decided to do them a favour by taking my own life.

MATT GALLOWAY: Oh my goodness!

ANGIE ELLIOT: Before anything happened, though, thankfully, my husband felt something was off. And he brought me to CAMH's emergency department and told them, look, we can't wait any longer. Someone needs to help her now. And within four hours, I had not only a diagnosis but a treatment plan. CAMH saved my life.

MATT GALLOWAY: And the diagnosis was of what?

ANGIE ELLIOT: A severe panic disorder. And after so many months of mystery, immediately they said, oh, yes, we've seen this before. This is very easily treated, and you're going to start feeling better very, very soon.

MATT GALLOWAY: Given that, when the pandemic hit, how worried are you about all the big changes that you were suddenly facing and how... how those could impact you?

ANGIE ELLIOT: Oh, terribly worried because it's blown up everything that has ever brought me happiness, seeing family and friends, working at a job I love, even having our sons' friends over. What I would give to hear boys rifling through my fridge every day after school now. So, many of the demons that I laid back in 2016 came back, the panic, the insomnia, the lethargy. But luckily, CAMH taught me the skills to to get through this, to face it head-on and to emerge at the other side.

MATT GALLOWAY: Can I ask you just a bit more about the work part of that?

ANGIE ELLIOT: Sure!

MATT GALLOWAY: Because you had to take leave from your job. Your husband is immunocompromised, and so --.

ANGIE ELLIOT: That's right!

MATT GALLOWAY: You couldn't, given the risk of this pandemic, you couldn't, you know, potentially expose yourself and then expose your husband.

ANGIE ELLIOT: Right.

MATT GALLOWAY: So much of us, I mean, work is important. It helps pay the bills. But it does, as strange as it sounds, give us some sense of purpose as well in a way. What happens when... When that's taken away from you?

ANGIE ELLIOT: Well, my whole mindset had to change. And now my full-time job is taking care of my body and my mind so that the framework of our home and family stays intact. And to go back to your point about purpose, routine and purpose are essential. Everyone talks about diet and exercise, and mindfulness, which is great. But CAMH taught me more specifically how to deal with the issues that arise, sometimes every day. They... they break it down very, very simply, four s': shower, stretch, sunlight and something specific to do each and every day. And it sounds really, really easy, but it's not, especially on the days when you don't feel like doing anything.

MATT GALLOWAY: So if you apply those four s', what happens?

ANGIE ELLIOT: I'm in a far better mindset. For instance, yesterday, after my shower stretch and sunshine time, I reorganized my pantry. It not only keeps my mind busy, but it keeps my hands busy enough to stave off the fear that can creep in. I keep the news off, I play great music, and I find myself in a far better mindset once those tasks are complete.

MATT GALLOWAY: How easy would it be to put one or more of those s' to the side? I mean, you know, it's Friday and we're just going to let some of that sort of stuff slide?

ANGIE ELLIOT: Oh, it's a fight every day.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

ANGIE ELLIOT: Absolutely. It's a fight every day. I mean, I think I have about five seconds to act on what I should be doing before my mind will convince me, oh, you're fine. Just, you know? And I approach it like I approached my paying job. You know, I show up, I show up on time, and I show up with a good attitude.

MATT GALLOWAY: I was reading something that you had said about the type of thinking that you try to apply, and you're applying sort of "what is" thinking instead of "what if" thinking. Can you tell me more about that?

ANGIE ELLIOT: Oh, absolutely. CAMH is really big on relying on evidence, not feelings, especially when my default mode is panic. So every morning, Matt, I wake up with a scratchy throat, and immediately think it's COVID. It's not, I snore. So I take a shower, I have a cup of tea, and how about that? No more sore throat! Now, I don't I don't ignore symptoms of COVID, and I would certainly act on any symptoms, but I don't stress myself out before I have to.

MATT GALLOWAY: You've been very open in talking about this, not just this morning, but I mean more broadly. And that's your own situation. When you connect with with friends or family, what's your sense as to how other people are doing right now, but also how willing people are to take a close look at how they're doing?

ANGIE ELLIOT: Oh, people are so willing to talk about what they're truly feeling once the subject is broached. Sometimes, introducing a topic like, you know, maybe not feeling so great or not being your best self are difficult topics to broach. I mean, we love to have the illusion of perfection. But once the topic is broached, people are so eager to talk about how they're feeling the same thing. Like, for instance, this weekend I spoke to a friend, and I... and I told her, you know, I'm having a lot of opposite thoughts. And I told her I was feeling both completely overwhelmed and bored out of my skull. And that [chuckling], well, I'm so grateful for the technology that allows me to see my family over face time. But I'm constantly distracted by either how weird I look on the screen or online schooling noises because our son is doing school from home. And it turns out she feels the exact same way, and one thing I learned in school is grief shared is grief decreased, and that is especially true now.

MATT GALLOWAY: So for people, just finally, for people who find themselves in that situation, and again, we're saying it feels like everybody is just trying to keep their heads above water. What's a piece of advice that you would give somebody?

ANGIE ELLIOT: Number one, reach out to your doctor. They are a great source of an introduction into mental illness care, mental wellness. One thing I found that really helped me is I received a notification that CAMH has an app called "Hope" that I downloaded about six months ago. And on it, it's got a crisis helpline. It has a safety plan. And the wellness activities are very, very helpful on those days where, like you said, it's really, really hard to get motivated. And I think perhaps the most important thing is don't fall into the trap of thinking this won't get better, it will get better, get help, take it hour-by-hour. And above all, be kind to yourself.

MATT GALLOWAY: I wish you the very best. And I'm glad you're doing OK, Angie.

ANGIE ELLIOT: Well, thank you so much, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Appreciate talking to you.

ANGIE ELLIOT: So nice to talk to you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Thanks very much. Take care.

ANGIE ELLIOT: Thank you. Bye-bye.

MATT GALLOWAY: Angie Elliott is a funeral director from Oshawa, Ontario. That app that she mentioned from CAMH, the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, is called "Hope". We could all probably use a bit of professional advice right now on how to cope with this thing that we are in. So let's hear from a couple of people who can do just that. Dr Shimi Kang is a psychiatrist and the author of "The Tech Solution: Creating Healthy Habits for Kids Growing Up in a Digital World". Michael Ungar is the canada research chair in child, family and community resilience at Dalhousie University in Halifax and the author of "Change Your World: Science of Resilience". Good morning to you both.

MICHAEL UNGAR Good morning, Matt.

SHIMI KANG: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Michael, how common are experiences like what we heard from Angie there, loss of routine, the loss of purpose in some ways, the dread creeping in as this thing drags on?

MICHAEL UNGAR That's exactly what we're beginning to see, as people report increases and losing their routine, breaks in, you know, not attending work in the same way. And when you just go through the checkbox of the kinds of risk factors that we're being exposed to, it's makes a lot of sense that a lot of the disruption in our life and the relationships, the things that used to perk us up. I mean, if you think about it, Matt, the pandemic has not only taken away all our coping strategies, like going to the gym and talking to our friends and having parties or whatever, it's also loaded the other side of our life with a lot more worries and just reasons to to feel down.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are you noticing this in your own life, without being too personal?

MICHAEL UNGAR Oh, absolutely. I mean, [chuckle] it's still a real struggle to maintain connections. We're trying, you know, definitely reaching out to our neighbours, trying to keep active. I loved what Angie was saying about, you know, just making sure that there are certain routines or structuring the world around you to stay focussed and have that still that sense of mission in your life so that you remember that, you know, the suffering that we're doing, the inconvenience is part of a... of a bigger goal, which is to keep everyone healthy.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Kang, what about you? I mean, they call these the "January Blues". I want to talk more broadly in a moment. But just personally, how are you dealing with this?

SHIMI KANG: Yes. Yeah, thank you, Matt, for asking. Definitely feel in the same boat as many Canadians. This is a time of stress. It's also a time of chronic stress. You know, it is prolonged. It's been going on for a while. I'm lucky here in the West. I have three kids who are still in school. And I live with my elderly mother-in-law and my husband. We're all working from home. But... But, you know, you get that cabin fever. But also, you know, I see the stress all around me in my clinical practise, my patients. You know, it's starting to... they are starting to have real difficulties. You know, they've held in... hung in there for quite a while. And I think the sunlight is such a key piece, you know, out here in the West, you know, hearing that sunlight, you know, mentioned by Angie. Well, you know, we know that that helps release serotonin. But she also said wonderful things. Music is endorphins. And challenge and structure gives us a hit of dopamine. But, you know, what's amazing is our brains are resilient. And there are many things we can do as this continues on.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do we know, Dr. Kiag, about... I mean, we're well into this now, almost a year into this pandemic. And people are feeling that idea of COVID fatigue. What are the mental impacts of a second or third stage lockdown compared to the first time, when when in March, it seemed like, within a couple of days, the world changed?

SHIMI KANG: Right. Yes. So back in March, you know, it was a crisis. And that certainly can motivate people. I'm an addiction psychiatrist. So my currency is kind of motivation. And we know that high levels of crisis or stress can be motivating. And so we listened, and we paid attention, and we acted. But as time went off, that changed, and then the novelty wore off. You know, novelty also is something our brain tends to like. You know, we get hits of dopamine when things are new and different. Over time, that wore off and the stress part was what remained. And now, here we are in the second wave. So definitely hearing, you know, pandemic burnout, definitely seeing the mental health curve going up and up. We need to flatten that curve. And really now we're at this place where it is a bit of survival of the fittest, meaning the fit, the one that is most adaptable to this world that we're in, people who are making those changes, adjusting, trying new things. I call it play. You know, trying new and different ways to cope and adjust, to still get outside, to still stay connected, to still move our bodies. You know, those individuals, you know, are getting through this, you know? But we need each other more than now. We need our professional help. And we need to get this message out. So these program are so important, you know, as a collective understanding education, there is still a lot we can do. And focussing on that silver lining, for sure.

MATT GALLOWAY: Michael Unger, it would seem as though resilience is something that's required in a moment like this. And this is what you focus on. Ten months after this pandemic started, do people have any resilience left?

MICHAEL UNGAR [Chuckle] Yes, I think they do. It's been interesting. Some of the international studies, like out of the U.K. Recently that was just published, has actually shown that it's not all entirely doom and gloom for everybody. In some cases, the rates of depression and anxiety are actually going down, not up. Now, I think that's going to explain it. These are, you know, if you're looking at everyone, not just the people who are hardest hit by this. But there is some readjustment going on. That people are finding new routines. People are at home with their families a little bit more, which could be good or bad, of course, Matt. But there's, you know, there is some semblance that people are adjusting to this. They're finding new hobbies. They're changing their exercise routines. They're using social media, or they're reaching out online. And we know from some of that research that, you know, online communities can be good substitutes for, you know, face-to-face contact. In some cases, if we're really interacting. Some of this work environments at home, we're not commuting as much. We're more in tune with nature if we're able to at least get out of our condos to sort of walk around the neighbourhood. So what I'm understanding from, you know, we study resilience of populations under a great deals of stress. And quite clearly, during the pandemic, we are seeing people make some accommodations and find, you know, basically exploit the opportunities around them or change the world around them so that they can actually do things. And we know that if you can make new relationships, if you can tune into your neighbours, bring over a casserole to someone who can't get out or who's shut-in, just a sense of mission that we're all in this together, maybe at the end of the day expressing some gratitude for the small things that actually went right. You know, we look at post-wildfire's post-tsunamis, post-other disasters, even post-war, people do take lessons from those experiences and integrate them into the life. And sometimes, they actually come back stronger.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Kang, Michael mentioned being online. We know a lot of kids across this country have switched to online learning, even temporarily. That can be hard on the parents who are there, certainly hard on the teachers. How does that affect the mental health of young people? And are you concerned about it?

SHIMI KANG: Yes, absolutely concerned. We know online time has gone up. A recent study by Western Ontario University showed almost double. That's outside of online school. Pre-pandemic, teens were checking their phone 150 times a day and spending over seven hours outside of school and homework. And, you know, what we know is happening is screens are linked to very significant physical health, mental health, social health consequences, physically, sleep deprivation, the blue light and the disruption of what's called our circadian 24-hour rhythm, near-sightedness. We're seeing prolonged posture, crouching over. Sitting is the new smoking, and it's highly toxic to our bodies. From a mental health, screentime has been linked to things like anxiety, depression, body image disturbance, gaming and Internet addiction are now medical diagnoses. And socially, we're seeing deficits in social skills, including the most basic of empathy. And rates of loneliness were already skyrocketing amongst young people, pre-pandemic. You know, where they aren't seeing each other, aren't looking at each other in real-time. And all of that has a profound impact on individuals and our collective generation.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's a long list of bad news. What are parents supposed to do about this, and young people as well?

SHIMI KANG: Right. So, you know, there's also many, many positives with tech. And I see them, you know, I have a son with ADHD, and he uses his noise-cancelling headphones. My daughter has dyslexia, and she needs her Google Read and Write. So, yes, technology is a real I say it is the fire of our time. When we use it well, we can go further and farther than ever before. And so, parents, what I recommend in the "Tech Solution" book is to really look for a familiar metaphor, something we already know to grapple this very overwhelming issue at time. So let's talk about a diet of tech. And let's look at consumption of tech the way we look at consumption of food. There is healthy tech. This is tech that leads to self-care, things like sleep at Fitbit, mindfulness apps. That's endorphin being released. There's tech that leads to connexion FaceTime, video conferencing, community activism, building. That's oxytocin is what you get when you consume that type of tech. And then there's tech that leads to serotonin or creativity and learning and mastery. So that's good, healthy tech. You can consume more of that. Limit and monitor that junk tech, that would be dopamine-driven, kind of mindless scrolling, zoning out with a video game. That's like sugar, a bag of chips, empty calories. Here and there, limit and monitor that. And then avoid the junk, that toxic tech. That's tech associated with cortisol, sleep deprivation, sitting, prolonged posture, you know, fear of missing out, hate, bullying. And so if you look at it in that way, and we can categorize, start giving children this language that we're all familiar with, now we can move beyond this idea of screen time to screen quality.

MATT GALLOWAY: Michael, you've give us some thought, I know, to teens. And I ask this as the parent of teens, how... how are they being affected by this moment that we're in right now? What should we be thinking about?

MICHAEL UNGAR Well, actually, they're probably, [clears throat] other than people who have lost their jobs, the teens are actually the ones that we are seeing are the most affected by this. We just did a huge study in the U.S., and the group that's showing the greatest increase in anxiety and depression and everything else, partly because their lives are disrupted. They're just not out socializing as much. And they're really picking up the cues about all the social justice movements, the Black Lives Matter, the #MeToo movements. You know, our teenagers are tuned into that. And, well, that's not bad. It's causing that stress response. What we can do for them, of course, is basically, first and foremost, we've understood that families that are more honest with their kids in terms of what the concept of transparency, let your teenagers know what is actually happening in terms of your finances and your family, or the stress on your, you know, in terms of your relationships, or actually, you know, that you're all in this together. The more that there's that transparency, that seems to be a buffer against that more catastrophizing thinking a teenager will get into, or feeling left out. Plus, we also know from... go back to studies during World War One, World War Two everywhere. If a teenager feels like they're contributing to the betterment of those around them, they want that sort of sense that I'm more of the adult world, that they're making a contribution. So the more the families can, like, let's face it, if you're composing the order for the family's, you know, order from the grocery store, you know, to have a pick up, why isn't your teen online doing that for you? Why aren't they being asked to step up and make a contribution to the family, cook a meal? Definitely, the theory that... Angie mentioned it, and Dr. Kang mentioned it as well, this idea of keeping routines in their lives. Don't let them sleep all day, that type of thing. Our teen can get through this, but they need to be brought in and made to feel like they are actually contributing, and that they're suffering, I guess, is part of a bigger reason, and can actually help the family.

MATT GALLOWAY: We just have a couple of minutes left, and I'll split it between the two of you. For those of us who are feeling the toll of this, and we aren't sure what to do, knowing that, you know, we still have a long road ahead of us. I'll start with you, Michael, briefly. What's one piece of advice that you would give us?

MICHAEL UNGAR Keep in mind that your individual ruggedness, your individual mind, depends on your relationships around you. You know, look for those new relationships, whether online, or at the neighbour across the road. You know, just stay connected as best you can, and develop some new routines, new hobbies, new ways of shining. And for gosh sakes, connect with everyone, your colleagues. Schedule some time with your work colleagues off the Zoom time to not talk about work, but just to share what's going on with your kids and your dog.

MICHAEL UNGAR Dr. Kang, one piece of advice, briefly, for those of us who find ourselves, as I say, just trying to keep our heads above water?

SHIMI KANG: Right, yes. So, like Dr. Unger, I agree with the social relationships, the other two coping skills I talk about our play and downtime. So downtime, self-care, take care of yourself. And play, really trying new and different things. We are hardwired to do this. We're hardwired to experiment, figure things out, try something, and pursue our hobbies and passions. It's very healthy for our brain. So remember that mental stimulation is a key part as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: Both of you take care of yourselves. And I really appreciate you being here this morning. Thank you.

MICHAEL UNGAR Thank you.

SHIMI KANG: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Michael Unger is the Canada research chair in child, family and community resilience at Dalhousie University, and the author of "Change Your World: The Science of Resilience". Dr Shimi Kang is a psychiatrist, and the author of "The Tech Solution: Creating Healthy Habits for Kids Growing Up in a Digital World". We wanted to mention that if you are experiencing distress, the Canada Suicide Helpline is: 18334564566. Again, that's: 834564566. We would love to hear from you as well. The line that we have heard over the course of this pandemic is we're all in this together, and that can mean different things to different people. But so many of us are struggling with everything that's going on right now. Do you have strategies that you have employed to cope? And would you like to share them with other Canadians? You can reach us through email: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Tweet us: @TheCurrentCBC. Or go to the website: www.cbc.ca/thecurrent. And click on the "contact" link. One way to cope is through play, as Dr. Kang was saying. Coming up after your regional update, a rink of one zone. We will take you to the backyards of some serious do-it-yourselfers. Get at the hose, cross your fingers for cold weather. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

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Restaurants pivot during pandemic and look to the future

Guests: Dan Clapson, Conor Joerin, Joshna Maharaj

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, Lesley Stahl of "60 Minutes" on the impeachment of Donald Trump 2.0. But first, trying to keep an industry alive.

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MATT GALLOWAY: From shuttered bars and restaurants, to a whole new takeout... take on take on takeout. Last year saw a massive change to where, how and what we eat. And while that industry teeters on the edge of a kitchen knife, some of the pivots that bars and restaurants have made are actually working out. For their thoughts on where the industry is headed, and how we cook and eat at home in 2021, I'm joined by three people. Dan Clapson is The Globe and Mail's food critic and columnist for The Prairies, and the co-founder of Eat North. It's a food media company. Dan is in Calgary. Conor Joerin is the owner of two restaurants in Toronto, Sugo and Conzo Pizzeria. And Joshna Maharaj is a chef, author and food activist. She is in Toronto. Good morning to you all.

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Good morning.

DAN CLAPSON: Good morning.

CONOR JOERIN: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dan, when you take a look at how restaurants have changed because of this pandemic, what stands out the most for you?

DAN CLAPSON: I think the one thing that is the same across the board is that most restaurant operators really streamlined what they were doing, you know, so they really stopped chasing, you know, that it ingredient or that trendy cocktail, and tried to focus on what they did best, and also obviously what would work best in takeout. I think that was probably the main thing.

MATT GALLOWAY: What did that mean for you, Conor? I mean, you have a couple of restaurants. When this pandemic hit, what changed for you immediately?

CONOR JOERIN: We closed our doors immediately. And then, like Dan said, we started to streamline. So we got more efficient. We started to run with smaller teams for the health of our restaurant and also because margins changed. And then we invested in pieces of equipment to help make us a little more efficient, you know? So, yeah, those are two big changes for us as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: You there are a couple of things that happened to you. One is that you had to let go of a wine bar that you were in the midst of getting set to open up.

CONOR JOERIN: Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: What was that decision like to make?

CONOR JOERIN: It's a tough decision, for sure, you know, walking away from an investment like that, a dream like that, is it's a hard pill to swallow. It was a little easier when everyone else was, you know, going through it and as a community as a whole was losing a lot, so this year is sort of an exercise in loss. But I feel, you know, [clears throat] it's sort of this pandemic has sort of told us to pump the brakes a little bit and maybe that don't need to keep building at such a fast rate. We can slow down a little bit and enjoy, you know, the things we have right now.

MATT GALLOWAY: You use the word community there. You were a big part of the community in your city. And I know, because I saw the work that you were doing, you are were also donating meals early on in this pandemic. What was happening there?

CONOR JOERIN: When we had to close, we were left with a lot of food on our shelves. [clears throat] So when everything got shut down, supply chains stopped. There was lots of food everywhere. Our suppliers had food, our fridges were full of food. And there was a lot of, you know, people in our community who have had a hard time accessing food the best of times. And then because of the, you know, the uncertainty and fear, people were were having a hard time access food. So we turned the food in our restaurants, in our walk-in fridges into meals, and started delivering them to... to shelters, food banks, community centres, places where people could access food and then eventually to health care workers.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just the last point on this. I mean, there's been so much loss this year. And part of the loss can be the loss of a business. It can be the loss of a dream of opening another business. What have you been thinking about when it comes to loss over the last year?

CONOR JOERIN: It's... yeah, it's been an exercise in just letting go and being OK with it. And also, you know, just changing perspectives a little bit and realizing what we do have here. You know, it's... we have lost a lot, but we've also gained a lot socially. There's been a lot of change. There's been a lot of time for reflection, you know, and I think we've made some forward progress in human rights. Hopefully, people are starting to look at environmental issues, you know, some of the holes and some of the broken parts in our food systems. So I think we've gained a lot as a whole socially and as a community. You know, there's been some financial losses. But at the end of the day, that's not the most important thing, I don't think. So, you know, I think it's all perspective and how you look at loss, you know, often to grow, you have to lose lose something, so I think it's the thing at the end of the day.

MATT GALLOWAY: Joshna Maharaj, before I asking you about food, let me ask you just about how you're doing?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: You were posting on Twitter saying that you had just been diagnosed with COVID. Are you OK?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: I have. Thank you. Yes, I'm super grateful of the fact that my symptoms are very mild, and they have not gotten any worse since Tuesday when I got diagnosed. So I am hunkering down, and I have "The Great British Bake Off" with me to get through it.

MATT GALLOWAY: [Matt, Conor and Dan chuckle] I hope that helps, and I hope you stay healthy.

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Oh my God, it really does. Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: How do you... I mean, my kitchen has become the restaurant in my home. How have people in terms of the relation to food, how has that changed, do you think, over the last many months?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: I think a lot of changes have happened, but I think perhaps one of the most significant is people have a really increased sense of how their food gets to them.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Be it from a farm or from a grocery store, as our supply chains were sort of shifted and jostled, you know what I mean? And really taxed over this past time. People have a really keen sense of what it takes to get their food to them. And honestly, it's something that I've been kind of screaming and yelling about for a while. So it's actually... it's actually pretty great.

MATT GALLOWAY: What difference do you think that will make? I mean, we've spoken about, you know, the situation that's temporary foreign workers who are picking our fruits and vegetables find themselves in.

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: The people who are working in meat processing plants find themselves. And when people learn about that, when... when, you know, the light is shone on those industries, what happens, do you think?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: I think that people get, first, super surprised because they don't... they didn't realize that it was that bad, right? Or that these really exploitative, dangerous circumstances exist just to get some chicken to their house or, you know, to to the grocery store for them. And so I think that there is a bit of a... there's been a bit of a reckoning both internally as consumers and shoppers and eaters. And then there has been much broader thinking about what this system actually looks like?

MATT GALLOWAY: Have you done anything differently at home over the past year when it comes to food?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Yes, I really feel like I have had to walk my talk a lot, right? I'm the kind of person that's like, stay at home, get lost in the dreamy value of cooking. But when we're all forced into it, I feel like I have really had to force myself to do the same thing. And I'm sick and tired of eating my own food. [Matt laughs] But this is where we are right now. I live alone, and this is the game we're playing. And so it has been... it has been a great test for me to really walk my talk. And I, because I'm a dork, get lost in recipes, and I've been tackling like long recipes that take days to make.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dan, do you think our relationship with food at home has changed a lot? I mean, I know that you spend a lot of time out looking at restaurants and bars in The Prairies, but at home, where we're all stuck these days, has our relationship with food changed?

DAN CLAPSON: Oh, I would agree with Joshna's thoughts100 per cent. I also do cook a lot at home and do a lot of recipe development as well. So I think, if anything, the people that liked to cook pre-pandemic are excellent home cooks now because we had so much time to hone their skills at home. And I think I will say I think my friends that were not great at cooking or had minimal interest are still bad cooks and probably just order takeout. [Matt laughs] So I think the people that were bad are probably still bad, but I think the people that were good are probably great. So I think a result of that this year is I think that you will see home cooks willing to spend more money on local ingredients or ingredients that maybe are more top-shelf to cook with at home. And I think you'll see people spending more time on different culinary recipe projects at home, so willing to put in more time cooking.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about in those restaurants? I mean, there's been a real pivot because the restaurants have had to do this. Some have turned into grocery stores. Some are offering different kinds of takeout or, you know, if you're allowed to, cocktail takeout or what have you. What are the innovations that you have seen that you think might stick around?

DAN CLAPSON: Well, I think the pandemic really helped to shine a light on just how creative independent restauranteurs can be. And also, the community giveback aspect, I think, was amazing. Like, what Conor did, so many restauranteurs did that across the country. It was amazing. But outside of that, you know, there's there's no shortage of meal kits and cocktail kits across the country now. And I think at the beginning of the pandemic, a lot of places, again, just put them out to put them out. But now I think we've seen them become really elevated. I think Christmas dinner packages were a great example of that to wrap up the year. And I would say just in my social circle, most people I knew did not cook at home for Christmas. They supported a local restaurant by getting dinner picked up or brought to their house. And I think that will also flow into this year. You know, when things get, quote/unquote, normal again, I think we will see people opting for special occasion meals to be ordered from restaurants as opposed to cooking themselves.

MATT GALLOWAY: Conor, you have a takeout operation that's running out of Sugo now, and the pizzeria. Is takeout, and the pivot to takeout, enough, do you think, to save restaurants?

CONOR JOERIN: It's paying rent right now. And with, you know, wage subsidies and rent subsidies, a lot of places are hanging on, I think places that were overexpanded and, you know, big, resturant groups that weren't practising the business practises have started to close. But a lot of the smaller, owner-operated businesses, you know, there's enough there to hopefully make it through this and preserve the culture and community that they foster in their spaces.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are there changes that you have been able to implement in your restaurants that you would want to hang on to? I mean, I think of streetside dining, which for a lot of people was something that they had been pushing for for a long time. They'd seen it elsewhere. It'd been impossible. Suddenly, every restaurant has some sort of streetside patio set up. Is that something that you'd want to hang on to?

CONOR JOERIN: Yeah, absolutely. I think with the curbside patios, we saw a city come alive. It was wonderful. It was almost like watching a garden grow in front of your house. So the community seemed to love it. We really enjoyed interacting with people out on the street. Often, we have large line-ups in front of Sugo, and some friends of ours play music out front. And there's quite a lively scene out front. There's a community scene out front. So we were really excited about that. And we hope that continues, you know, and also spilling over into parks, you saw people picnicking, having wine and enjoying takeout and parks. The city came alive. And I think everyone enjoyed it, business owners and the community alike.

MATT GALLOWAY: You said that takeout allows you to pay the rent. But you also, you gave your staff a raise at the beginning of the pandemic. Why did you do that?

CONOR JOERIN: Yeah, all of our costs. So, everything costs more in the pandemic. The price of food went up. And then when we were looking at some of the, you know, the problems in our systems, you know, one of the things, I come from a cooking background, traditionally, there's, you know, a wage difference between front of house and back house. So immediately, we asked our cooks, the backbone of any restaurant, to come back to work. And it's a stressful time, you know, just getting to work right now incurs a heavy stress. There's, you know, it's a hard time to ask people to come to work. So we immediately gave everyone a raise just to, you know, help make it a little easier to come back to work. And we upped our prices a little bit to help with the incurred cost of higher food costs because of the interruptions in our food systems. And becoming more efficient also allowed us to offer our staff higher wages.

MATT GALLOWAY: Joshna, what are you hoping for? I mean, in light of what Conor's been saying, and what Dan's talked about in terms of innovation, whether it's, you know, the kinds of food the people are offering or how restaurants actually operate and how they treat the people who work in those restaurants, what are you hoping will be a lasting change to the industry that could come out of this time?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: I'm really excited about this kind of reform that we're hearing of precisely what colour is talking about, about rethinking wages and how we roll that out to consumers. And I think what's really going to be amazing is to see that people on every stage, both consumers, restaurateurs, farmers, suppliers, all along the chain, we're all going to make this little shift and this little adjustment. And the one is this is just going to be what's necessary. But I love the idea that we're going to do this together right? Our entire industry and community, we really we have to do this together, right? This is the only way we're going to get through this if we work with each other. And that, I see the spirit of that has really blossomed. And I'm super encouraged by that.

MATT GALLOWAY: In many parts of this country, going out to a restaurant to have dinner is a dream right now because restaurants are closed in many parts of this country. In places like British Columbia and parts of Atlantic Canada, though, they remain open. And so we asked some diners in Vancouver what it is that drives them to eat out, even during a pandemic. Have a listen to this.

WOMAN: When you're in a restaurant, it definitely feels like you get to be closer to the people you're with, and you get that experience of, like, connecting with people that you don't get when you, like, order out, definitely, for sure.

WOMAN#2: On Friday, I was in the restaurant, at the bar, with just a couple of us. We were sitting and chatting to each other, one of my closest friends, because I'm living alone. That's why I'm just so used to go to the restaurant and get socializing with everybody, just makes me so happy.

MAN: It's not just the food. It's more... it's even more than that. It's the experience, you know, about like talking to each other, like, having like a good time. It's not the place, it's the memories that we have in that place.

MAN#2: I think it's what makes us human. You know, we go out there and a lot of the time, you know, if you look at some of the greatest, you know, a lot of things have been done, you know, over meals. It's a very personal thing, you know? It's also what makes this Canadian, you know, in many ways, we're a melting pot. That's why I see them as so special. Is you're seeing cultures mixed together in a way that it's melting pot, you know? And food is a huge part of that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Conor Joerin, I have a friend who describes restaurants as kind of a magic act. That there's the food, but then there's much more. I've stood in the line in front of your restaurant. You talked about the long lines. And I've been in that tiny little box of a space where people are kind of crammed in on top of each other. What do you miss from the before times for restaurants? When you could go out on a Thursday or Friday or Saturday night and be part of that? What do you miss most about that?

CONOR JOERIN: I think just the connection to the community, to my neighbours, to the people that live in my community, exchanging smiles, words, laughter, jokes, breaking bread, being part of people's celebrations. You know, watching family celebrate birthdays, anniversaries, first dates. And then restaurants, just the spirit of community in a restaurant that lives in them through the food, through the music, through the conversations people are having. So just that real connection, that human experience. And I think we all miss that a lot in our communities. We're managing to stay in touch online, but there's a bit of disconnect right now. So just that raw human connexion and that human spirit that's so important for our health.

MATT GALLOWAY: How worried are you about losing that? This is not just an interruption, but for a lot of places, they're not going to make it, and they're not going to be able to come back when we get out of this thing. How worried are you about losing that?

CONOR JOERIN: I think we we are going to, you know, obviously we're going to lose some restaurants. And, you know, I'm saddened that a lot of people have lost so much, but I'm hopeful. Humans, we're such social creatures. If you look at the history after any sort of interruption, whether it's a pandemic or 9/11, restaurants come back strong, and people can't wait to get back and connect with each other, to break bread, to celebrate, to communicate, to talk about new ideas in the future. So I'm hopeful the spaces will come back. There will obviously be some changes to the way we operate and health guidelines and everything like that. But I'm definitely hopeful. And, you know, restaurants are here to stay. They're not going to go away. They're an expression of our humanity and culture and and community. So I can't see them leaving. And, you know, it's just a waiting game right now it feels like.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dan Clapson, we can cook at home. We could order in. What do we lose when we aren't able to go out to eat?

DAN CLAPSON: Oh, like, what I wouldn't give for a pint of beer, you know? [Matt and Dan laugh] This is just like the little things you realize that you miss, you know? And I think I've I've realized you can order a lot of takeout, yes. But there's certain things that you just don't want to make yourself and are just not the same in a box. So outside of just missing the, of course, I miss the atmosphere of a restaurant or a bar, you know, sitting at the pub with friends or having dinner with my partner out. But I think one thing that's interesting, too, is that people maybe might not realize that restaurants also support a lot of other creative industries. So when you're looking at an independent restaurant, they might hire a local illustrator every two months to redo their seasonal menus, or they might be topping a fashion designer to update aprons and whatnot. And I think because restaurants aren't able to operate like normal, all these other creative industries, music obviously, too, a lot of restaurants and bars employ musicians. So I think that is what I also miss, is that support within the creative industries. So I really hope that things get back to normal.

MATT GALLOWAY: Conor's optimistic, but are you confident that the support is there to help the industry recover?

DAN CLAPSON: You mean currently, or once everything's --

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, I mean, part of it is just, you know, hanging on, but then once things get back into place, I mean, these places are going to need support as well. And there have been calls from industry, from, you know, restaurant groups across the country, the save hospitality movement, to ensure that these places don't go dark forever. Is that support there, do you think?

DAN CLAPSON: Well, I think currently the most important thing is if it is within your means, you should be ordering takeout. And obviously, if it's further within your means, if you can pick up the food from the restaurant as opposed to using a delivery app, that's the best way to go for sure. If restaurants are now making, this is a huge trend now, a lot of restaurants and bars have their own packaged products, so they might make their own sauces or syrups for cocktails and whatnot. Those are great options to stock your pantry as well. Every little bit helps the restaurant for sure. You know, once things are done, I don't think restaurants and bars are going to have trouble getting people in the door. Like, I'm going to be standing outside of my favourite restaurant the minute it opens, you know? I think a lot of people have that mentality.

MATT GALLOWAY: Joshna, food means things to everybody. And it's not just going to eat. I mean, it's also people who could not afford to go out to eat, but they still rely on food to, you know, provide community, to provide fellowship, in addition to providing fuel. How have you seen that change over the course of this pandemic with the organizations that you know very well?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: It has been a real challenge, Matt. Because The Stop is an organization you know well, and I'm connected to well here. And one of the most important functions that The Stop offers is a reduction in social isolation, right? We really got that from a survey a few years ago. And my response to that was like, what are you talking about? The most important thing we do is give... is the food. But the truth is the food is just a tool, right? The food is a tool to enable people to connect to each other. So now, those lovely folks have had to figure out ways to to maintain social connections in a moment where we have to reduce, you know, reduce those connections. So the amount that's riding on that takeout package of food right now is higher than it's ever been. And I've even seen folks who started writing notes to people on the outside of the containers just to put a bit of that emotional social piece in, as well as the good nutrition. And that... it's a real challenge for them.

MATT GALLOWAY: When we get out of this, I'll ask you all this in the last couple of minutes that we have, I mean, when we get out of this, what's the first thing that you want to do when it comes to... we're talking about, you know, the place of restaurants in our culture? Joshna where do you want to go, and what do you want to eat?

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Where do I want to go? You know what? Oh, man! I am dying to go and eat a Richmond Station burger in the restaurant with all of my smiley... to see my people, right? One of the delights of restaurants to me is to walk in and see my people's faces, and I am dying to go and sit down at a restaurant and see all of them.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dan, you mentioned the pint of beer. Aside from that, what else do you want when we get through this?

DAN CLAPSON: Well, I don't think beer will sustain me alone. [Dan and Matt laughs] So, I'm a huge fan of Vietnamese food, and Calgary, has an amazing Vietnamese restaurant community here, so I will go have a ball of pho for sure.

MATT GALLOWAY: And what will that give you? I mean, you could, again, you could make that at home, but what would that give you in the restaurant?

DAN CLAPSON: Again, I just think there is something special about getting it in that, you know, big ceramic bowl with a pile of herbs and beans, sprouts and whatnot on the side. And again, yes, you can order it with takeout, but by the time you transport it home, I find it's not quite the same. So I just... I just love that aroma of a piping hot bowl of pho. And, yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to most, and probably going to Vietnam as well.

MATT GALLOWAY: Conor, what about you? What are you looking forward to when you can open your doors again?

CONOR JOERIN: I'm looking forward to just seeing seeing the community, watching people break bread together, and, you know, tuck into a big plate together. And like Dan, I miss Vietnamese food very much, travelling to Vietnam as well as, you know, like a hot pot or salad rolls, where you're you're carrying food with your fingers and wrapping up salad rolls with a love for the people you're sharing the meal with that. That connection over food is something I miss dearly.

MATT GALLOWAY: Simple pleasures, noodles and burgers. It's great to speak with you all about this. Thank you very much.

JOSHNA MAHARAJ: Thank you.

DAN CLAPSON: Thanks so much!

CONOR JOERIN: Thank you all very much.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dan Clapson, Globe and Mail's food critic and columnist for The Prairies, and co-founder of Eat North. Conor Joerin is the owner of the Toronto restaurants Sugo and Conzo Pizzeria. Joshna Maharaj, chef, author and food activist in Toronto. What do you miss most about restaurants? Make us hungry. Let us know through the email: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Or you can tweet us: @TheCurrentCBC. Coming up after your regional update, with less than a week left in his presidency, Donald Trump has been the first president to be impeached twice. In 90 seconds, veteran "60 Minutes" journalist Lesley Stahl on what comes next, for Trump and for her country. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

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Outdoor rinks

Guests: Aziz Kara, Jimmy Skrivanos, Kelly Baillargeon

MATT GALLOWAY: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. What is a kid ,or an adult, to do when COVID-19 has shut down house league hockey or derailed your figure skating lessons? Well, you should take to the backyard, of course. And that is precisely what they did at our producer Alison Masemann's place. And the neighbours next door got in on the act as well.

OLIVER MASEMANN-GRAY: Hello, I'm Oliver Masemann-Gray. I am 13 years old.

OWEN MASEMANN-GRAY: I'm Owen Masemann-Gray. And eight years old.

[Sound: Skates on ice and a puck being shot from a stick. It sounds like Canada!]

OLIVER MASEMANN-GRAY: We had to set up little two-by-fours to make the outer edge of the rink, where we then set the tarp on top and filled it up with water. And then the next morning, it was slightly frozen. We waited another day, and then we waited another day after that. And then it was Saturday, and then it was awesome to be able to skate on the rink.

[Sound: A stick hits the ice]

OWEN MASEMANN-GRAY: Our rink is a bit tiny, but it works! I would say, give it out of ten, maybe eight out of ten?!

OLIVER MASEMANN-GRAY: It was awesome to be able to skate on the rink!

OWEN MASEMANN-GRAY: We haven't skated for months, so it was really fun to get back on the ice.

OLIVER MASEMANN-GRAY: I thought I would be a little rusty, but I wasn't. And just felt completely natural to go back on.

[Sound: The satisfying smack of taking a shot]

OLIVER MASEMANN-GRAY: Next door they have started making a rink, and theirs is a bit smaller.

KINGSTON HART: I'm Kingston, and I'm nine years old.

AILEY HART: I'm Oli, and I'm eleven years old. So, our dad saw a couple videos on, you know, like Facebook and stuff. And then we saw you guys, our neighbours, were making one, and we thought we could just do it. It's built on our deck, and I feel like it's a lot... it's easier for it to melt because underneath the deck, there's like this big hot air bubble, and that makes it a lot warmer.

OLIVER MASEMANN-GRAY: They have lights up on their rink, which is a nice touch, but --.

AILEY HART: They're just Christmas lights. They're strung around the rink so that... because it's winter, it starts getting dark at like 7:30. So sometimes we want to skate at like, I don't know, 6:00 or something, and we need the lights to, you know, skate around. I have never played ice hockey before, and this was, like, my first chance to actually play ice hockey. Oh, well, it's really awesome. I, I love skating, but most winters, normally we only get to skate like once a month, because we have to go out. And, of course, with COVID, you have to book times. And just having the skating rink here, it's so much better and so much easier. And you can go out whenever you want.

OWEN MASEMANN-GRAY: I think I'm probably going to use it almost every day. Because of online learning, I can use the rink at lunchtime and right after school, which is really, really good, because then I'm also not bored as much after school, and it's a great way to get exercise.

OLIVER MASEMANN-GRAY: My hockey skills have improved on this rink for the past three days. Definitely my skating, like overall just skating. And definitely stickhandling, too.

OWEN MASEMANN-GRAY: Yeah, I've been doing hockey since I was seven years old, so it's really nice to have this rink. And even though we can't do hockey this year, we can still have our little backyard rink.

[Sound: Skating and ice crunching]

MATT GALLOWAY: Owen and Oliver Masemann-Gray, and their next door neighbours, Ailey and Kingston Hart, enjoying their brand-new backyard ice rinks. Now, there is no real data on this yet, but anecdotally, it seems like during this pandemic winter, a lot more people are buying up tarps, carving out some space behind the house if they have it, and creating their own frozen playgrounds. Of course, there are many Canadians who've been doing this for years, and they may have a few tips to pass along. People like Aziz Kara, a father of two, who lives in Midtown Toronto, Jimmy Skrivanos, who is on his fifth year of backyard rink building in Calgary. And Kelly Baillargeon, who's with me from the farm near Edam in northwest Saskatchewan. Good morning, everyone.

AZIZ KARA: Good morning.

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: Good morning, Matt.

KELLY BAILARGEON: Morning!

MATT GALLOWAY: Let's hear about these rinks. This is an opportunity for you to, yes, brag, [laughing] but also give us some tips for those newbies amongst us. Aziz, we'll start with you in Toronto, describe what you've built?

AZIZ KARA: Yeah. So, our place isn't too big. We're in Midtown Toronto, so our rink is about 16-feet wide, by about 40-feet long, which is a great size for our young family. I've got four in our family. And we've got, you know, a light, you can think about some halogen sort of construction light, if you will, mounted up on top of a wooden trellis structure at the edge of our deck. And those are angled down towards the rink. And that provides plenty of light for, you know, a nice evening and night skate. Beyond that, it's pretty simple.

MATT GALLOWAY: What happens of.... I think of my backyard. I mean, it's the size of a postage stamp, but it's not level at all. Big, you know, hump in the middle of it, and a hole on one side. What happens if your backyard isn't level, Aziz?

AZIZ KARA: Yeah, that's a... it's actually quite a challenge that you've got to work around. So the same case in our backyard, Mat. At the closest site to the house is is where it's the highest. At the furthest side of our backyard is where it's the deepest. So we've got a slope away from the house. And it's about a foot difference in slope. So you have to take that into account when you're building the rink. So the first few times they tried it, at the furthest point away from the house, there's about a foot... about a foot of water, if you can believe that, that had to freeze. And obviously, not all of it freezes. There's some water below, but taking into account the slope of your backyard is actually a big part of how you plan out your rink.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so you build some sort of, you know, balancing act like a shim or something like that that's going to level it out?

AZIZ KARA: I've actually, yeah, so over the years I've been, you know, trying to get some tips. And I actually ended up getting a tip from a local rink builder, actually local in Oakville. So, you know, he gave me a tip that you can... you can buy these big foam sheets. So I've got these like four-feet, by eight-feet pieces of foam sheets that are three inches thick. They probably put them on the side of a house where they're putting up some stucco. So if you lay those down on the ground, and then the tarp over it, it displaces some of the water. And that, you know, reduces some of the weight that goes up against the board. So, you know, these are some of the tricks that you pick up over the course of the years. And you can... you could sort of level it out. But at the deepest end of my rink this year, I've got about 16 inches of water, and it holds up. So, you know, you make it work. But there are solutions to get around that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jimmy, tell us what you built in Calgary?

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: What I've built, [chuckling] it's fifth-year. I've got a sport court, so we've got a basketball court, badminton court, pickleball, everything under the ice. So essentially, I don't have to suffer what Aziz suffers with a slope. So I've got a... what? About an eight-inch grate for the water. But it is 30-feet, by 68-feet.

MATT GALLOWAY: Wow!

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: Of ice. Two-foot boards, led lights under under the liner. So I've got a centre to blue lines and two gold lines. A lot of lighting for night skating. I've got two 150 bulbs, two 100 watt bulbs on the deck and on the trees, essentially getting rid of all the shadowing.

MATT GALLOWAY: This sounds very fancy!

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: Every year you do something new. [Matt chuckles] Every year you add.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is this about a luge track that you built at your house as well?

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: Oh, that's an annual event. We've, prior to our sport court, we've built a luge off the deck, [Matt laughs] 17-second run. [Matt laughs some more] So the kids will go on. It takes about 17 seconds. So essentially now, since we've built the sport court five years ago, we transitioned from the deck to the... to the rink.

MATT GALLOWAY: All right [chuckling]. I was going to say it sounds dangerous, but fun. And I'm not sure which one is more interesting. The danger part of the fun part? Kelly, you're on a farm, so you presumably have a bit more more space. Tell me what you built.

KELLY BAILARGEON: Yeah, we are definitely a lot different situation than the other two. I mean, we've got lots of... lots of open space here in the yard. And yeah, I don't even put a line or anything under mine. And as far as levelling it, well, it's... we have equipment on the farm and stuff. And have a skid-steer here, and so we've kind of got the yard levelled out a spot for it. And our rink is 120-feet long, by 50-feet wide.

MATT GALLOWAY: Holy! That's huge.

KELLY BAILARGEON: Yeah, well, it's, yeah., we just got a lot more space here. And, you know, it's a big job to get a rink, even a small rink made. And, you know, a bigger rink, I don't know if it takes that much more time. We've just got, you know, a big water tank and a bit more equipment to kind of help build it.

MATT GALLOWAY: You talk about equipment. I mean, making it is one thing, but you want to have the ice relatively stable and clean as well. So tell me about what you have, the machinery that you've put together for maintaining the ice?

KELLY BAILARGEON: Well, this is far... like, sometimes if we get a big snow dump here or something, well, I've got a skid-steer, like a bobcat to help clear the ice off because it's a big job [chuckle] if you get a foot or two of snow. But then after that, usually I'll just scrape it off with a shovel and stuff. And then, I kind of built a resurfacer, like a homemade Zamboni, if you will, [Matt laughs] out of a quad and a water tank on the back for filling it with hot water and resurfacing.

MATT GALLOWAY: And when you get it done, I mean, do you have some sort of measure of pride in standing there and looking at your pristine rink?

KELLY BAILARGEON: Well, when it's... yeah, after it's all.... after it's flooded, you almost hate to skate on it because it looks so nice. But yeah, I mean, that's not the point of it. But yeah, they sure make nice pictures of it, you know, once it's all shined up.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about you, Aziz? I mean, you made some sort of homemade Zamboni-type thing?

AZIZ KARA: Yeah. I call this a Homeboni.

MATT GALLOWAY: The Homeboni!

AZIZ KARA: Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: OK.

AZIZ KARA: And I stole my kids little toy bin. You know, if you think of those plastic round bins that you put drinks in at a picnic, I bought one of those to put their toys in, so took that away from them, drilled a hole, bought some pipes from, you know, the local hardware store and, you know, tried to make a little contraption. And it was, you know, mildly successful, but it felt like a little too much work for the Csize of rink that we had [slight chuckle]. So used it once. And and now, it's, you know, resumed its role as a toy bin. But so for me, now what I do is I just take, you know, two buckets, you know, that we have, like small small pails, fill them up with water and just walk them over to the to the rink and dump them on. And it takes about eight buckets full to flood the surface, and then you just let it freeze. You know, I was thinking about last week when after we had a bit of mild weather, it got cold here in Toronto. So it was perfect for me to flood it, you know, wait an hour and then go back again and flood it again. I did that about four times. Then, The next day, we had a wonderful surface to skate on.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jimmy, I mean, you talk about flooding the rink. I mean, there's the you know, it's an iconic image, somebody standing out there in the dark with the hose and they're flooding the rink. Is that what you get up to?

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: [laughing] No!

MATT GALLOWAY: No! [laughing].

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: No, I do it in the dark. Yeah, I'm no different than Kelly. I've got equipment, too. I've got snow blowers, leaf blowers, mostly just like Kelly does. You know, after you get rid of the snow, you clean up the ice with your push shovels or your pushers. And I've got a hot water spigot in the utility room, so I just hook up to that. And similar to Aziz, I've got an ice resurfacer. So I walk it, I'll walk behind and, yeah, take a look at it every day and just say, wow, that's beautiful!

MATT GALLOWAY: How much does your family get out of the rink, Jimmy?

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: You know, we probably have close to about 90 skateable days here in Calgary, so we use it probably about 45, 50 times a year.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's like you're keeping track them!

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: Yeah. Oh yeah, I keep all the statistics, yup.

MATT GALLOWAY: And that's that's a good amount. I mean, it ends up being kind of a central place for people?

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: It does. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So far, I think we've done about 34 skates since November 20th, yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Kelly, I mean, you have a couple of daughters. And normally, I guess, they'd be playing hockey, but things end up on the shelf because of COVID restrictions. What does it mean for them and for you to have a place where they can skate at home?

KELLY BAILARGEON: Oh, it's... it's just another excuse to not be in the house. I mean, more activity... or more time they can be outside, just everyone's in a better mood. And, yeah, just less screen time, the better. And, you know, our rink, same thing, too, everyone around here has rinks, it seems like. But, you know, even when before the pandemic hit, I mean, we'd have hockey games on the weekend. And it's good for us, oh, to meet up somewhere after. And even just if you can have three or four families over and have a skate, it's a blast.

MATT GALLOWAY: And you end up, I guess, building kind of memories, if it's a tradition and you do it every year. I mean, you end up building kind of memories around that space, right?

KELLY BAILARGEON: Yeah, for sure. Even if they're not... if they're not even skating on it, they're playing in the snow piles on the edge or just, you know, chasing the animals around the ice, like their pets. And, yeah, it just seems to be a place to hang out, even if they don't even have the skates on using it.

MATT GALLOWAY: Aziz, did you build your rink for your kids, or is it really just for you initially?

AZIZ KARA: Well, it's definitely [chuckling] with the kids in mind. You know, it took them a bit of time to to want to get out there. So, you know, in years past, I found myself using it more than them. When I put them to bed, you know, it's really nice to go out outside, you know, put the headphones on, maybe listen to a podcast or some music and skate around. You know, I'm not the best skater. So, for me, I get to practise and get a little bit better. So, you know, it's fun for the whole family. My wife's gone out like after the kids have been asleep just to skate around. But, yeah, we all... We all make good use of it.

MATT GALLOWAY: There's this organization called RinkWatch, which is a project that recruits people across North America who build backyard rinks, people like yourselves. And it asks them to report regularly about the weather conditions at their rinks and the quality of the ice. And this is a way to measure the effects of climate change. Take a listen to Robert McCleman. He runs RinkWatch, and he is an environmental studies professor at Wilfrid Laurier University.

ROBERT MCCLEMAN: We've learned from participants what are the sort of critical temperature thresholds for building a skating rink. I mean, everybody knows that water starts to freeze once the temperature drops below zero degrees Celsius. But actually, to have a skating rink, to have a large amount of water frozen really solid and to have a hard surface, you want temperatures to be closer to minus-five degrees Celsius or colder. One of the things we've been able to do now that we know the key temperature thresholds is to cast backwards through historical weather records and to look at trends over the last 50 or 75 years in terms of winter temperatures and whether they're suitable for skating. And we're also able to cast out into the future using climate models to look like what the future holds. Looking into the future, we can see that, especially towards the end of this century, it's going to be very difficult to make backyard skating rinks in places like New York or Boston. And in Toronto and Montreal, the length of the outdoor skating season is going to shrink by anywhere between 25 and 35 per cent. Out west and in Canada, especially out in Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, skating season will still be pretty good throughout most of the 21st century, although it will start to decline as well towards the tail end.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jimmy, you've been one of the volunteers that keeps these stats for RinkWatch. Have you seen a real change in weather conditions over the years when it comes to your rink?

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: You know what? It's my first year, so I can't really speak to that. I've just started getting statistics for Robert.

MATT GALLOWAY: So, you don't know then whether the rink that you have now would be the rink that you'd have in years to come?

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: You know what? This is the second year that we flooded in November. So, 2017, we flooded on November 4th, believe it or not. But November 11th is our first flood, and our first game was November 20th. So I haven't noticed a difference.

MATT GALLOWAY: Kelly, have you seen A difference?

KELLY BAILARGEON: No, not at all. This is our earliest year putting ice in, I think. And we were skating on flooz here in October. Yeah, so I don't really see that at all, no.

MATT GALLOWAY: What about for you, Aziz? I mean, in Toronto, I mean, it's... it's... you're probably at the greatest risk of the three of you of having kind of slushy ice. Is it worth it for you if you go through that freeze thaw, freeze thaw over the winter a few different times to put in all that work, knowing that you're not really sure what you're going to get in terms of a rink?

AZIZ KARA: I personally think so. I mean, you get a few memories, and those are worth, you know, worth... worth it. You know, I think back to a couple of years ago, where it was bitterly cold over the holiday break. And the great part was that having the rink, we got everyone outside. Otherwise, people would have just been sitting inside, which isn't a bad thing, but to get outside and get some fresh air. So it's definitely a good thing to have there. I mean, in terms of the weather, you know, I put my my rink structure up in around mid-November, maybe hope that the ground freezes and keeps the brackets in place. And then the earliest that I can flood is, that I've been able to flood, is right around Christmas Eve. And this year, I ended up flooding, I want to say mid-December, but it just wasn't cold enough. And there was a few nights where I got a solid surface, not anything to be able to stand on. But I had to wait until early January before it was really solid and for us to be able to skate on. And that's... that's pretty much what I've seen. That in Toronto, you know, you got to wait until late December, early January before you have a surface that, you know, you can skate on.

MATT GALLOWAY: So, you're all pros at doing this. I want to ask you for some advice. If somebody is starting out, perhaps intimidated by the idea of building a backyard rink and not sure how it's going to work out. What piece of advice, Aziz, would you give them?

AZIZ KARA: So, the way that I got started, I was inspired by a neighbour two doors down, you know. So for me, it was... it was just looking it up on the Internet, doing a lot of research, not a lot.... there's like a ton of resources. You know, there's a lot of companies that will sell you a kit with brackets and boards or, you know, they'll tell you what size of wood you need. So, you know, they've got all the resources out there. They're incentivised to do that. Obviously, they want to sell as many of these as they can. So I would say, you know, look it up. There's lots of videos, lots of companies that will sell these things. There's lots of local rink builders that'll do that as well. And like you said, Matt, there's a lot of people that are building these rinks. So chances are that you know someone that's done it. So lots of people that you can... that you can lean on. But otherwise, give it a shot. The first rink that I built didn't work out. I had... I had a tear in the tarp, and we just didn't get good ice that year, and we couldn't skate on it. And I just learned from that. So, dive into it!

MATT GALLOWAY: Kelly, piece of advice for the newbies?

KELLY BAILARGEON: Just be prepared to spend some time. Yeah, even not just building it, but maintaining it seems to be as much work as any, especially if you're somewhere it snows lots. But yeah, and another thing is the ice has got to be... got to be level or you're... you know, at least your base. The more level it is, you'll save a lot of time and water building it to start off.

MATT GALLOWAY: And Jimmy, for you, one piece of advice?

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: One piece of advice, leaks! Don't walk on the liner, don't take anything for granted! Leaks can ruin the season.

MATT GALLOWAY: But when you put that work in Jimmy, I mean, the benefit of it is, I mean, paint me the perfect picture of when, you know, pre-pandemic, say, when you have the ring going, what's the best scene that you could have there.

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: All the kids, well, usually we have the hockey team. So all the kids are on the ice. The parents are on the deck. The parents are around the firepit. We're all visiting, hanging out, having some cocktails, barbecue's going, smoker's going, all of that. That's the perfect, perfect scene.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's enough to make you love winter. It's great to talk to you all. Good luck with the rinks. And thank you very much.

KELLY BAILARGEON: Thank you.

AZIZ KARA: Thanks, Matt.

JIMMY SKRIVANOS: Thanks.

MATT GALLOWAY: Aziz Kara in Toronto, Kelly Baillargeon outside Edam, Saskatchewan. And Jimmy Skrivanos in Calgary. It's an opportunity for you to brag, you could share your achievements in the category of backyard ice making. Tweet us some photos of what you created this year: @The CurrentCBC. Email your backyard rink stories to: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Or you can just boast about going and skating on natural ice. I have some friends who are in Yellowknife, and they taught me with photos of skating and Great Slave Lake. They're beautiful. Let us know how you're getting out on the ice in this strange winter that we're having. thecurrent@cbc.ca, or Twitter: @TheCurrentCBC. That's The Current for today, and for this week. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One. It's "Q" coming up. And guest host Tahlia Schlanger talks with the author Angie Thomas. She has a prequel Out to "The Hate You Give" — a wildly successful book. The new novel is called "Concrete Rose", and she tells Tahlia about going back to the characters in that novel and telling the story, this time through the eyes of a young Black man. We have been talking this morning about preserving our mental health in these pandemic winter months using all sorts of coping strategies, including the joys of skating outdoors. The Olympic speed skater and cyclist Clara Hughes speaks out regularly about mental health and the value of being active, especially outdoors. And she enjoys music to help her cope as well. We will give Clara the last word this morning. I'm matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take care. Have a great weekend, and I'll talk to you on Monday.

CLARA HUGHES: The song that's helped me get through this pandemic — that keeps going and going, but there is light at the end of the tunnel — is "Beautiful World" by Colin Hay. It's a song that a good friend of mine, another musician, sent to me way back in March of 2020, at the beginning of this whole thing that we're all in. And his name's Sean McCann. And Sean and I had spent two weeks down in the Sonoran Desert, hiking, sleeping under the stars, cooking over a campfire. Sean's a good friend of mine, and he knew that it was hard coming home because I was isolated in the house from my husband, not knowing if I was going to pass something to him, if I had something, the confusion we all felt. And so every day, Sean McCann sent me a song to get me through the day. "Beautiful World" is a beautiful song, because it shows that when everything around can be dark and can be difficult, when there's struggle everywhere, there's beauty to be found in the smallest things.

[Music: "Beautiful World" by Colin Hay/Folk rock]

January 15, 2020 Episode Transcript

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