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The Current Transcript for January 7, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

We will never give up, we will never concede it doesn't happen. You don't concede when there's theft involved.

MATT GALLOWAY: There have been many unprecedented moments in the United States over the last four years. Yesterday, though, stands apart. For weeks, Donald Trump has been repeating baseless claims about being cheated out of an election he lost in November. Yesterday, on the day that Joe Biden was to have been certified as president, Trump supporting rioters stormed the Capitol building where that certification was taking place. In a moment, reflections on those stunning scenes, why they happened and what happens next. Also this morning, what happens next for students out of school and learning at home and for their parents?

SOUNDCLIP

OK, let's get you on. Can you log in yourself? Your iPod is charging.

MG: Is it safe for kids to be back in school given the rising cost numbers and much of this country? We will discuss in 30 minutes. Plus, the harrowing story of one long term care home hit hard in the second wave and why more wasn't done to protect its residents. We begin, though, in the U.S. Capitol. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Unlikely Trump will be removed from office, but keep him away from 'sharp objects': conservative commentator

Guests: Joanne Freeman, John Fund, Pearl Dowe

SOUNDCLIP

The votes for president of the United States are as follows, Joseph R. Biden Jr. of the state of Delaware has received 306 votes. Donald Trump of the state of Florida has received 232 votes. The announcement of the state of the vote by the president of the Senate shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the person's elected president and vice president of the United States.

MG: And with that in the dark hours of this morning, Vice President Mike Pence certified Joe Biden as the next American president. But people in the United States and indeed right around this world are waking to a changed perception of American democracy.

SOUNDCLIP

[Protestors shouting]

VOICE 1: They have broken the glass to the U.S. Capitol. Protesters now are using the ends of a staff holding an American flag.

PROTESTORS: We want Trump.

VOICE 2: I call on President Trump to go on national television now to fulfil his oath and defend the Constitution and demand an end to this siege.

MG: Terms like insurrection, sedition and anarchy are being used to describe several hours of unprecedented mayhem. A mob of pro Trump supporters incited by the president himself stormed the U.S. Capitol and occupied the floor of the Senate, where lawmakers were supposed to be certifying the results of November's election. And indeed, as we heard later returned to finish that job. One protester was shot by police and later died. For a look at where that country goes from here, I'm joined by Pearl Dowe, a professor of political science and African-American studies at Emory University. John Fund, a columnist with the National Review. And Joanne Freeman, professor of U.S. History and American Studies at Yale University and the author of The Field of Blood Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War. Good morning to you all.

PEARL DOWE: Good morning.

JOANNE FREEMAN: Good morning,.

MG: Pearl Dow, what was it like for you watching what unfolded yesterday at the Capitol?

PEARL DOWE: I'm still going everywhere. I'm still processing this because Tuesday night became the night that Georgia, which is my home state and where I currently reside, elected two Democratic senators, one African-American, one Jewish. And the location of that quickly going away. I think what I saw was the emotions that I felt at the time, including rage and anger. Shock, not so much shock at what these people were doing, because if anyone has been following this presidency following the last few months, the rhetoric, what was that happening, what they did was not as shocking. It was the fact that we lack of response by those that were deemed to protect that building and our elected officials. I think that's the most shocking part.

MG: What about for you, Joanne Freeman, and what was your reaction as you watched this? I mean, as the protesters got closer, got through the barricades, smashed the window, opened the door, went across through the rotunda and ultimately onto the floor of the Senate.

JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, it won't surprise people to hear outrage was a great part of my response. I spent a good number of years writing about the U.S. Capitol as the base of American democratic representation and a really symbolic representation of American democracy. And there's no denying that what I was watching, what we were all watching yesterday was an attack on those things, an attack on American democracy in reality and symbolically as well. I can't say that I was absolutely surprised, given the call for violence. I do agree that part of what was surprising was the fact that it was allowed to happen and seemingly the police stepped back and allowed that to continue. But what was also shocking to me was, you know, I just wrote a book about physical violence in Congress in the years leading up to the Civil War and this kind of direct assault on the Capitol was threatened a lot, but didn't happen in this direct way. So as so many things in this current moment, there's a blatancy to what's going on, a sort of sense of real entitlement to power that is kind of jaw dropping in its obviousness.

MG: John Fund, how much responsibility does Donald Trump have and what happened yesterday?

JOHN FUND: Significant, although his speech, if you listen to all of it, did not directly incite violence, he did suggest people go up to the Capitol and said he would join them. That was clearly partly responsible for the mayhem that happened. And they're going to be a lot of questions about the president's current mental state. And they should be asked. And, you know, we were normally not supposed to play psychiatrist in the media, but I'm willing to do it because I've talked to people who know the president. The Capitol Police failure is beyond belief. They have 2000 officers. That's more police in the city of Baltimore, which is the eighth largest police force in the country. For them not to have been able to hold off a group of people only armed with, you know, wooden stakes and, you know, riot shields is beyond any comprehension.

MG: I want to talk about the police in a moment, but go back to the president. The president, as you said, he may not have incited violence directly yesterday, but people say that they're not surprised that this has happened because for weeks since the election, but even before this election, he has said that the system was rigged against him. He was telling people that the votes were being stolen, that the system was biased against them. And then since he lost the election, has been making these false claims that the election was stolen from him. Are you surprised, given what he has been saying, that something like this would unfold?

JOHN FUND: Donald Trump has had many erratic moments during his life, but he has kept a grasp on reality. What's happened since November 3rd is I think we've added to the president's attention deficit disorder, something which I think someone in the White House told me is called focus lock. You can't focus on what is appropriate. You can focus obsessively on what is not appropriate in both ADD and focus lock, it's a failure of the brain's central executive function that manages focus. The president is abandoning his job and obsessing about things that may or may not be true and only paying attention to that which he's obsessed with.

MG: Let's talk about how this happened. Pearl, you mentioned this and everybody has in terms of the police response, the response that we saw from law enforcement was very different, for example, from this summer during Black Lives Matter protests in Lafayette Square where rubber bullets were used. People are saying yesterday that the police treated those rioters with kid gloves. They were posing for selfies with some of them. What do you how do you make sense of the difference between the police response in some events and the police response yesterday, Pearl?

PEARL DOWE: Well, what you know, for those of us that are familiar with Washington, D.C., I lived there for many years to know that perimeter and to know how aggressive those Capitol Police are about broaching that perimeter, even with giving person a ticket for jaywalking to see that was just like, well, wait a minute, you can't come across there because there's a barricade that's, you know, to to think about it and to think about your own steps of trying to get to a place when you're there for business. I think what we saw is what we have seen across the country when we talk about this issue of policing in America and who has the right to be protected. And so we saw that presented front and centre at the seat of American power.

MG: If these were black protesters who were storming the Capitol?

PEARL DOWE: They wouldn't have made it across the barricade. That's very clear. That's very obvious. We could look at the pictures from the summer where we could see armed police, extremely armed, stand in front of the Capitol during particular marches in preparation. We see it where we know that there are large groups of people of colour that come for demonstrations and protest, that those areas are protected and guarded. So to have a significant breakdown and what was obvious, where you saw actual police officers removing the barricades for people to walk through, almost ushering them into the Capitol. Many people did have weapons, there are people we there are pictures with people who have weapons. There also accounts that some of these people actually were coming to actually kidnap or to hold hostage people because of what was happening, this constitutional procedure. So there were people in that group that did not come just to say I was there. There were people that came to pose a threat to those members of Congress, something we have to be clear about.

MG: As someone who studies history, Joanne, part of the spark for this violence, as we were saying, is the president saying that he lost the election to fraud charges that have have zero facts behind them. What is the effect of that on American democracy, on saying that you are calling the election a fraud, that you've been cheated out of that election?

JOANNE FREEMAN: Right, well, this president has been chipping away at institutions of government from the onset, from the very beginning of his presidency. Now we've just been watching him focus that effort on the voting process in America, which is the heart of American democracy. Democracy runs on a certain faith and commitment to a process of government, you know, the Constitution, in a sense, is a pact that Americans make with each other to agree to the workings of democracy on a basic level. That agreement in many ways has been violated over the course of this presidency and so I think part of what we were watching was the logical outcome of that. And this really leads me to give a lot of thought. We should give a lot of thought to the impact of this and to the significance of how we respond to this, because all of the things we're talking about here, including the ultimate failure of the Capitol Police, are going to do nothing to repair the damage done in people's faith in the government and its ability to represent us at large and not just to represent people who are protesting on their own behalf. So what happens now matters a lot. Accountability is another thing that's at the heart of American government, American democracy. The people who have power are accountable for the way in which they use that power. The rule of law requires accountability as well. So I'm certainly more than interested to see what's going to come next, because American democracy in some ways really requires bolstering at this moment.

MG: John Fund, what about accountability for those other Republicans who, you know, were supporting Trump, Ted Cruz, who was standing there on the floor in the hours before saying that he had doubts about the results of the election? Josh Hawley, who raised a fist to the protesters in the minutes before the riots. What responsibility to those Republicans have for what happened yesterday?

JOHN FUND: Some Republicans were grandstanding for political advantage in primaries, planning to run for president in 2024. Some have legitimate concerns about election irregularities that actually did happen, although they did not affect the ultimate outcome of the race. But I think this is a clarifying moment for Republicans, because I can almost guarantee you that while the populist impulses that motivated a lot of people to support Donald Trump are going to remain and be powerful, Donald Trump is not going to be leading them. I think several things are guaranteed from this. I don't think Donald Trump is a viable candidate for president in 2024 for the Republican nomination. I don't think his daughter in law, Laura Trump, is going to be a candidate for U.S. Senate in North Carolina has been speculated and I don't think Ivanka Trump is going to be running for Senate in Florida. I think the influence of the Trump family has fundamentally become a depreciating asset starting yesterday and continuing forward.

MG: What about those, though, who had hitched their wagons to him and were reluctant to come out and say that Joe Biden was the rightfully elected president, the next president of the United States, because they worried about that? Has that changed materially, do you think?

JOHN FUND: Well, there were there were fewer than you think. Who actually said that Joe Biden hadn't won the election? But those who remain having said that, we're primarily backbenchers in Congress and they will remain backbencher's in Congress. They may even suffer primary challenges from, you know, a revived Republican establishment coalition. So. This is a sad, sad moment. I mean, I've read stories about, you know, how American troops broke and ran and allowed British soldiers to storm the Capitol in 1814 in retaliation for burning down the Canadian capital. But the British were responsible for what happened in 1814. We are responsible for what happened yesterday.

MG: Do you think and I'll ask all of you this in terms of what happens next. But there is some talk of, you know, removing the president from office, using the 25th Amendment. He still has a couple of weeks left as president. And there are questions as to what perhaps he still could do in that office. John, do you think he needs to be taken out now in terms of through the through the 25th Amendment? Does he need to be taken out of that office now?

JOHN FUND: I don't think you could move fast enough to do that. The 25th Amendment requires a majority of the cabinet to meet with the vice president and execute that. You'd have to ask yourself if the president is angry now, how angry would he be if he saw a majority of his cabinet or the vice president meet? I think probably the more prudent course would be to make sure that sharp objects are kept away from him for 14 days and leave office peacefully. And he's already committed to a peaceful transfer of power.

MG: Pearl, what happens now, do you think?

PEARL DOWE: Well, I think the the process will probably move forward because we we have seen over the last four years that there's not a political will to hold this man accountable for anything. So I don't think he will be. What I am deeply concerned about is the increasing amount of political violence in this country. We saw this happen over the summer in Michigan in which persons that attempted to control the Michigan state legislature. And so this is a continuous trend in which there's a group of people in this country, particularly white Americans, who believe that they are the sole have the sole right to control American democracy, and thus they don't believe in democracy for all. And so I think we have to grapple with that moving forward.

MG: To a lot of people, you know, the symbol of that was the image yesterday of the man with the Confederate flag walking through the rotunda.

PEARL DOWE: Exactly. And we have to remember that it was just a few months ago that the Confederate statues within the rotunda, which is removed. And so this is a longstanding challenge for this country about citizenship, about the rights of persons like myself who are African-American, which is the foundation of what this conspiracy that yesterday was based on. That's the root of it, that people like me don't have the right to invoke our citizenship in our choices when it comes to voting. And so I think until we grapple with that, fully grapple with that which we have not, and every time we have these moments, we we we see platitudes just like yesterday, watching last night, the deliberation, it was quite a stark contrast where you saw this formality where just a few hours before you saw chaos and violence. And so I think America has to if this democracy is going to stand, has to finally face what it is that is at the root of our society and really rough with it. And deal with.

MG: Joanne Freeman, last couple of minutes to you. I know that historians are very reluctant to predict the future, but but you talked about how the country kind of grapples with what happened yesterday, what needs to happen.

JOANNE FREEMAN: Well, I mean, I'm echoing what others have said here, and I suppose what I implicated before, there needs to be action taken. There needs to be a bolstering of democracy, an assertion, a clear statement that that kind of behaviour is not acceptable. Earlier, the word grandstanding was used as far as what certain Republicans have been doing regarding their claims about the election. That's the right word. And it's a word that I think we should take seriously. Grandstanding when it comes from a president or from national representatives is never just rhetoric. It becomes a statement, the representative statement. And Americans take that kind of language seriously. So I think that, again, accountability is of vital importance right now on all kinds of levels. And I think democracy needs to be asserted, upheld, and I think there needs to be a clear line drawn in the sand that this kind of behaviour will not be acceptable, cannot happen again, and really needs to be tracked down to the ground as far as what the dynamics of it were, how it unfolded, as it did, and really the basics of what happened at the Capitol yesterday and who allowed it to happen.

MG: It's good to speak with you all about this. Thank you very much for your time this morning. Quite a quite a moment yesterday. Thank you.

GUESTS: Thank you.

MG: Joanne Freeman is a professor of U.S. history and American studies at Yale University, Pearl Dowe, a professor of political science and African-American studies at Emory University, and John Fund, a columnist with the National Review. We would be happy to hear from you as you perhaps watched this live or you caught up with it later in the day. Your thoughts on what you saw yesterday, but also what you heard from our guests this morning in terms of where the United States goes from here. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Your CBC News is next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: OK, then you go there. Everybody should be getting on. Dismiss.

VOICE 2: [Via speaker] Our time going on?

VOICE 1: That's loud.

VOICE 2: [Vocalizing]

CHILD: The hard part is...

MG: Well, does that sound like your house? Home schooling has been a steep learning curve for everyone involved. Kids, parents, teachers. And they're all wondering how much longer this is going to go on. Should kids go back for in class learning? Is it safe, given the rise in cold cases in many parts of this country? We'll talk about that coming up next. I'm Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current. Back in six minutes. Stick around.

Epidemiologists call for mandatory COVID-19 testing in schools amid rising case counts

Guests: Jennifer Heighton, Ashleigh Tuite, Colin Furness

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, a covid outbreak at an Ontario long term care home has left family members reeling. We will hear from some of them, as well as caregivers and doctors who say the system is broken. But first, making the grade.

[Music: Theme]

MG: In normal times, remember those, this week would have been back to class after Christmas break for Canada's students and teachers instead in Nova Scotia, they extended the break for a week. And in four other provinces, parents were wrangling kids into desk chairs at home and struggling through tech problems. Here is how back to school sounded in Toronto for Adrian Loncke and her kids, seven year old Ozzie and 11 year old Leona.

SOUNDCLIP

ADRIAN: OK, let's get you on. Can you log in yourself?

OZZIE: Sure.

ADRIAN: No, no. You're downstairs.

OZZIE: Mama. No, no. Google Glass.

ADRIAN: Your iPod is charging. I think.

[Sound: Door closing]

ADRIAN: What time is your first one?

LEONA: 10:15.

ADRIAN: And then your meeting with Mr. Neils Leader, right.

LEONA: Yeah.

ADRIAN: OK. Have you done your daily check in?

LEONA: No not yet.

ADRIAN: OK.

MG: That's the student and parents perspective. Here's what it sounded like for one teacher running a virtual classroom. Ashanty Sri is a grade five and six teacher at Parklawn Junior Middle School in Toronto.

SOUNDCLIP

ASHANTY: So you want to make sure that all- When you click on the bird, see how now it's moving together?

STUDENT: But still it's not working.

ASHANTY: Click on it. OK, so see how you have yours forever and then you have to turn and turn, but you have nothing in between it. So it is working, but it's going so fast that you're not even seeing that it's working. And you see there is as weight.

STUDENT: I need another weight so I can put this one here.

MG: Familiar scenes for many people in those scenes were playing out across Ontario, Quebec, Alberta and Manitoba this week, what happens next is up to provincial governments. Ontario Premier Doug Ford is facing pressure to extend online learning, and he says he's considering it. British Columbia has bucked the trend and already sent kids back to school on Monday. Jennifer Heighton is a grade four or five teacher in Burnaby, British Columbia, and she joins me now. Jennifer, good morning.

JENNIFER HEIGHTON: Good morning. Should I call you Miss Heighton? Is that what the students call you?

JENNIFER HEIGHTON: That's what they call me.

MG: Miss Heighton. Students are back. How do you feel about that being back in the classroom?

JENNIFER HEIGHTON: Well, teachers in all over really would like to have the same measures in the classroom that other schools have. I mean, we do enjoy being face to face with this, the students, but other public places around the country have got distancing, have got masks and ventilation is being addressed. Not in schools. And so really around the province. Yes, we are happy to see the children face to face. However, it is nerve wracking to not have the distancing, not of the masks or the ventilation.

MG: What do you most nerve wracking? What are you most concerned about?

JENNIFER HEIGHTON: I'm concerned about if a student were, or if I were, to bring the virus into the classroom, I would not want to be passing it onto my students or for them to pass it to one another. We've had some schools in B.C. that have had multiple exposure notices, some even up to 20. And so there's a lot of concern about potential school transmission going on, even though it's not being acknowledged by our health office.

MG: How much mask wearing goes on, even if it's not mandated? Are you finding that a lot of the students in your class and in your school are wearing masks?

JENNIFER HEIGHTON: Yes. So my classroom, I have got 100 percent mask in compliance. And that's because I established a culture of mask wearing right at the beginning in September. And I have an administrator and a district that is fine with that. So for me, the mask wearing in class has been good. However, I am aware that around the province and around like classrooms all over, that's not the case. So there's been some resistance to establishing a mask culture in certain classrooms in certain districts. So I think that having a mask mandate across the province would be really helpful. And there's been teachers clamouring for that and the union is clamouring for that because the studies have shown that not wearing as a source control is very effective.

Dr. Bonnie Henry, who is the provincial health officer in British Columbia, said at the end of December that her modelling showed the world to your point. There have been cases where staff and students were potentially exposed to covid-19 hundreds of cases. Only a small fraction of those have actually led to transmission, and that the proportion of students infected with covid has remained relatively consistent since the start of school - it hasn't actually gone up. She's the top doctor in British Columbia. How reassuring is what she says to you?

JENNIFER HEIGHTON: Well, it's not reassuring when we know from the ground what's been happening. So the unspoken part has been that there have been several exposure notices that have gone home where parents have discovered after they kind of compare notes with other classmates, parents, that that one notice covered several cases. So, for example, the notice sounds like it's only about one person in the classroom who has tested positive. But actually they discover that there are four. And so there's been data obfuscation from the health office. And we know that because of what's been going on. Another example is there is just 50 cases just announced. I mean, 50 cases in a high school in Surrey. And this is not called an outbreak. So the definition of outbreak for B.C. is very different than it is for other workplaces. And what that means is it the bar for an outbreak is set so high that even 50 cases in a school connected to five classes is not called an outbreak.

MG: I was just going to say help me understand this, because Bonnie Henry has become sort of this very trusted voice. I mean, she's leading the province and has been celebrated in terms of how she has tackled this. And I know that she's faced pushback from a number of teachers, from teachers unions as well. Why is there that gap is you suggesting the people on the ground have a better understanding of what's happening than perhaps somebody in her office?

JENNIFER HEIGHTON: I think so, because, for example, we've got two moms who are running a Facebook site that they collect exposure letters anonymously from people and then they verify those exposure letters and make sure that they are accurate. And then they post them on their website. And the numbers that they have been able to generate from that have been day to day, like every day they post twice a day. Yet the health office has not been able to produce that type of daily and school exposure data, and they even admitted to the Sun that they couldn't keep up with that just yet. Two parents are able to to do it.

m: What about the students? I mean, just before I let you go, how do you think the students feel about being back at school right now?

JENNIFER HEIGHTON: The students, it all depends on what the situation is in their classrooms. So in my classroom, I've got my all of them wearing masks. My windows are open every day. And so I think the comfort level is a lot higher. And I can tell that because, you know, even on the first day of school in January 4th, I had 100 percent of students come back to school. That's not the case everywhere. I do know some families are saying that when they ask their children about mask wearing in schools that not all of them do, not all of their classmates do. And then those children do feel more nervous about being in a class. So I think that it varies.

MG: I wish you the best of luck. You have school later on this morning. And so I appreciate you getting up early to speak with us. Jennifer, thank you.

JENNIFER HEIGHTON: Thank you so much, Matt.

MG: Jennifer Hudson is a grade four or five teacher. She was in Burnaby, British Columbia, in Canada in September. People right across this country held their collective breath as students and teachers headed back to the classroom. The question is, are they any more or less safe now than they were then? Colin Furness is an infection control epidemiologist and assistant professor at the Faculty of Information at the University of Toronto. Ashleigh Tuite is an epidemiologist and mathematical modeller at the University of Toronto. Dalla Lana, School of Public Health. Good morning to you both.

COLIN FURNESS: Good morning.

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Good morning.

MG: Colin, what do you make of the concerns you just heard from Jennifer Highton in Burnaby?

COLIN FURNESS: Their real and I think what Ontario and B.C. share in common is not a lot of data transparency, not a lot of clarity, not a lot of testing. And that can make people very concerned. It's pretty difficult to know what is the level of safety here.

MG: One of the things we heard, Ashleigh, is that there is not a mask mandate in British Columbia. Many of the provinces have mask rules for students. Is it a mistake for B.C. not to have one?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Yeah, I think so, absolutely. You know, to me, that's a pretty simple tool that we have available. We know that it helps. And the fact that you're relying on individual teachers to effectively act, as you know, advocates for masking, when that's an intervention that we know works is really at this point in the pandemic, really unforgivable, I think.

MG: How are things going in your house, Colin? You have a couple of young children, they are doing online school this week. How how's that unfolding?

COLIN FURNESS: So I have one in primary school, one in junior school, and the junior school child who who's 12 is actually doing quite well. He's an extrovert and misses his friends, but I think he's being productive. When we think about primary school children, I think my younger one is pretty typical. And, you know, my wife and I both work. We're both pretty busy and we're getting nothing done this week because we're on call for tech support. It's difficult for him. It's not an ideal learning environment. In fact, I don't think there's really much learning going on at all. And that's pretty stressful for all of us.

MG: There's not much learning going on at all.

COLIN FURNESS: Yeah, and it's not about- he's got a great teacher, by the way, and we've got all the pieces we need: we've got high speed Internet, he's got his own Chromebook. We've got all those pieces and many people don't. So we're as advantaged as possible and I still don't think this looks like learning to me.

MG: So let's talk about what could or should happen. The Ontario government had been saying that elementary kids would go back to school next Monday. Secondary students a few weeks after that. Yesterday, the premier sort of opened the door to the possibility that that could change. Ashley, what do you think should happen should kids go back to school on Monday?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: It's a really difficult question. I mean, I think, you know, we're constantly talking about these balances and these trade-offs when it comes to schools. But I mean, I think particularly in places where we have increasing cases, it doesn't make sense to open these schools where we know that they're you know, we have. Interventions and we have measures in place to try and make them safer, but we're at a point, you know, in Ontario, where we have, you know, increasing hospitalizations, our ICUs are starting to fill up, and we're, you know, we're begging people to do everything they can to limit their social contacts. And then we're opening schools where we have large numbers of people aggregating in spaces that are not as safe as they could or should be. And so I think, you know, at this particular moment in the pandemic and again, you know, this is maybe not a blanket statement across the entire country, but in these places that are experiencing these surges, it really seems like we're going to be adding fuel to the fire.

MG: Tell me more about that. I mean, again, to your point, it depends on your local situation. But in general, if you see case counts in the community going up in Ontario, you're looking at 3000 new cases plus a day. There are similar high numbers in other provinces or at least, you know, higher numbers in other provinces. What is the risk level in schools compared to the situation in September?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Yeah, so, I mean, basically what you need to think about is, you know, communities are connected to schools, so as we have more communities spread, we are going to see more students and staff entering into schools with COVID-19. And ideally, we find some of those cases with screening, but we also know that children are more likely to be asymptomatic. So we're going to have more and more cases in school settings, and that's more likely to lead to, you know, classrooms getting shut down and schools getting shut down. And similarly, that those schools basically act as amplifiers. So you have case, some transmission happening in the schools. Those students and staff go home to their households and then can spread, you know, basically amplify this to the spread of COVID throughout our communities.

MG: I want to bring Colin in. But just on that point, when you hear in Quebec that, you know, they are imposing what seems to be the strictest lockdown in this country with a curfew even, but they're still standing elementary students back to school on Monday. Does that make sense to you?

COLIN FURNESS: Well, it doesn't seem to make sense. And yet I think I can understand the logic. I think, first of all, let's separate primary schools from older kids, primary schools are a little bit different because we do have data that kids are not as infective as they ought to be. We're still not totally sure why. And so that means we can't really feel comfortable with that. But the clinical evidence, the contact tracing evidence says there's not much transmission. I'm not going to say kids are immune. I'm not going to say they don't get it. I'm not going to say there's no risk. But the contact tracing data suggest that there's not that much transmission going on. So when we think about working parents, poorer families have a disproportionately large burden to bear here. When we think about that, when we think about no one is forced to go back. Parents can elect for online learning and so can teachers. When we think that there's going to be playdates going on anyway. In fact, I have a ton of evidence saying that's exactly what's going on, closing schools doesn't actually take a lot of that contact out. And it's those playdates that I think are more dangerous than kids sitting at a desk with a mask on. So some of the most dangerous conduct, I think, is still going on. But the big one here, and I can't emphasize this enough, is if we were to open schools next week or the week after, we should do it with mandatory testing of kids. Public health and schools have always gone together. This is where we do vaccinations. We could be finding cases in the community by testing kids. Not only that, there's a simple protocol we can use that involves kids just spitting in a cup. We don't need to use swabs and university labs could analyse it. Those that labs are sitting idle right now. So we literally have all the pieces we could do with that. We need in order to make use of schools as a way to identify cases and reduce transmission.

MG: Do we actually know if those cases are happening? I mean, Bonnie Henry, I said earlier, she said that the data shows that schools aren't a place where transmission is happening widely in British Columbia. To your point, do we actually know, Colin, if that's the case across this country, do we have the data to show whether schools are safe or not?

COLIN FURNESS: Eileen De Villa was on TV doing a press conference last week, and that is what she said, almost word for word. I haven't seen the data myself, but I do trust Dr. De Villa.

MG: The medical officer of health in Toronto.

COLIN FURNESS: And so that's what I'm basing it on.

MG: Yeah, I guess the question is, you would be you know, you're saying there's no learning happening in your house when it comes to your younger child and you're not really getting anything done, you and your partner. Would you be comfortable sending kids back to school without that, you know, spit in the cup testing that you're talking about?

COLIN FURNESS: In my particular neighbourhood, actually, yes. And that's because I am fortunate to be privileged. Not every neighbourhood is going to feel nearly as safe. So I think I need to put that caveat in there. Broadly speaking, no. I want testing. I want testing in there. That should have happened in September. We don't have the data. And we're here talking about, gee, is there transmission going on in schools? It's sad that we've had four months of school and we still don't know. We should have been doing testing and a lot of it and we should be doing that now.

MG: Ashleigh, what about this new variant of the virus from the UK? We're already seeing it in some parts of of Canada. What does that mean for the future of in person learning?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I mean, I think the new variant really emphasises the importance of getting spread under control. You know, if we allow ongoing spread to happen, we can expect that once this variant is circulating in our communities that it will potentially become the dominant lineage and will be dealing with a much harder to control pandemic. So, again, this gets back to Colin's point, which I think is really, really critical, is that we need to be looking for covid in schools. You know, we have people who are very adamant that we have no transmission happening. We have other people saying that they're hotbeds of transmission. And the reason that we're still having this debate is because we're not systematically going and looking at this. And, you know, if we don't look and, you know, I think we should be looking for these variants as well. We're potentially in a situation where a few months from now we have a more transmissible strain. And the measures that we have to control this are the same, but we have to do them a lot better. And then, you know, these weaknesses that we have in terms of the safety that are the control measures that are in place in our schools don't work as well. So we really need to continue to think about how do we invest in our schools. And I think that's one of the really frustrating things, is that, you know, we've been talking about this sort of sort of control measures that we need to have in place since June. And we talk about schools as being essential, but we're not treating them as essential. We're not investing in them. We're not improving ventilation. We're not making sure that we're able to limit class sizes. We don't have testing in place. We don't have supports in place for people so that if their children need to stay off of class, that that, you know, their parents can stay home and take care of them.

MG: So given that I mean, you do mathematical modelling, what would you expect to see when schools that are closed now, if they were to reopen on Monday, what would happen?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I anticipate that we'll see a surge in cases again, you know, we're in a bit of a strange time right now. We were just past the winter break. We know that a lot of people got together over the holidays. So I think the next couple of weeks in terms of data are going to be a little bit confusing as we start seeing the effect of those gathering any transmission that happened. But, you know, opening the schools isn't going to make things better. I would say that.

MG: Colin, what about for you when it comes to this new variant? Again, the concern that a lot of people have is that it's more contagious, apparently amongst younger people. What does that mean?

COLIN FURNESS: I think it's pretty clear to me that it will become the dominant lineage. And when that happens, the schools will be closed and we're going to have some pretty severe measures in order to stop, in order to prevent here what's been happening in the UK.

MG: What do you mean, severe measures?

COLIN FURNESS: Curfews, things like Quebec is doing. I mean, really, really doubling down on limiting social contact. So I think that variant will close schools. The question is how many weeks or months before it becomes dominant? And that I do not know.

MG: You mentioned the disproportionate effect and you use the word saying that you're privileged in terms of the things you have at your disposal from books and Internet connexion and perhaps space in your home. What is closing schools mean for people? There's a disproportionate effect when it comes to technology, when it comes to time, when it comes to space. What does that mean for people, if we keep those schools closed for another few weeks or a month or longer, Colin?

COLIN FURNESS: The lower down you are in socio economic status, the larger and more negative the effect is of having kids at home, no question. And if there was a way that I could trade and keep my kids at home, so a family that had harder challenges, seven hours, I would do that. That's not where our education system works, though. It would be a bit complicated, but I'm really concerned about that. And that's a voice that's not at the table and it's important.

MG: So parents are listening to this right now and they're wondering what's going to happen and they're wondering what should happen. What would you tell a parent about sending their kid back to in-person school and college?

COLIN FURNESS: I think every family needs to make a smart choice. There's other factors to consider. Are there immune compromised people in the house? How's people anxiety? What kind of resources do they have? There's obviously tens of thousands of children who have families who opted for online learning from September. So clearly there's an interest there. And I think people need to have that choice. It's an individual choice. How bad is it in your neighbourhood? What's your tolerance for risk? What is your socioeconomic standpoint on this? Or what's the damage of sending them there versus not? So there isn't one clear answer, and I think that's part of what makes this really stressful.

MG: And I don't want to, I mean, not to put words in your mouth, but a couple of minutes ago, you said essentially it's not if schools are going to be closing, but when if this new strain becomes the dominant strain.

COLIN FURNESS: So if the new strain holds off until July, school is done for the summer anyway. So it's really, it's basically a race. Will the variant really get in there before term is over in June. And I just don't know,.

MG: Ashleigh, in the last minute and a half or so that we have. What would you tell a parent about sending their child back to in-person schooling?

ASHLEIGH TUITE: I would say the same as Colin. You know, this is unfortunately an individual decision. And I I actually feel really frustrated that it comes down to individual families having to decide what's best for them because we don't have the leadership from our government. And, ultimately, we would want to be in a situation where, you know, virtual learning is not a viable option or a sustainable option for a lot of families. And we've seen other countries that have done things like, you know, keep schools open for people who need to go to school and for those who can accommodate virtual learning. You have basically have some flexibility there. And I think what we're dealing with right now is a sort of yo yo-ing between person and virtual learning. And there's all of this uncertainty. But ultimately, I think each family and each household is going to have to make a decision that makes most sense for them. And, you know, hopeful over the coming weeks and months we'll get these different measures in place to help people have a bit more clarity and certainty about what's going on in schools.

MG: It's great to speak with you both. Ashleigh, thank you so much.

ASHLEIGH TUITE: Thank you very much.

MG: And Colin, good luck in your home with all the things going on that are happening there.

COLIN FURNESS: Thank you.

MG: Collin Furness and Ashleigh Tuite. Both epidemiologists both teach at the University of Toronto. Your thoughts on this, please. How's it going when it comes to schooling in your home? Is it working or are you getting anything done? Kids learning anything? What are you weighing when it comes to perhaps sending the children back to school? You can let us know. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

The worker called me and said they are moving grandma to a different side of the building there because they have order to isolate all of the infected residents in one place. The communication between us was cut off for a few days. Three days later, she could barely talk.

MG: It's not just in schools. The covid crisis in long term care homes continues. And you will hear that coming up in about 90 seconds. I Matt Galloway you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio one.

71 dead in COVID-19 outbreak at Tendercare Living Centre in Ontario; and André Picard on Quebec's curfew

Guests: Dr. Samir Sinha, Andre Picard

MG: I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. Over the past few weeks, a long term care home in the hard hit Scarborough neighbourhood of Toronto has been the site of an unfolding tragedy. 71 residents have died of covid-19, a new high for a single facility. Since Christmas Day, the Tenderccare Living Centre has been under the management of a nearby hospital, and The Current spoke with several families whose loved ones contracted the virus. This is how they spent the holiday season.

SOUNDCLIP

REED: My name is Reed Zhao my grandmother. She had everything to care for about two and a half years. Her name is Pinchu. She was 96. We've got a phone call [unintelligible] Friday, and the social worker told me she was diagnosed with covid and she's fine. She's staying where her room is. On the same day, of course, the entire family called my grandma. She sounds loud and clear on that day. We were hoping for the best.

JANET: My name is Janet Sloan. My mother in law is a resident Tendercare. I have to say they are already very stretched in terms of resources before the covid, which is always our concern. Before, I think they had a little bit more resource. I think one to eight, meaning one PSW to eight residents. But in the last few years there has been one to like 11.

NORMAN: So my name is Norman and my father was a resident of Tendercare and unfortunately he passed away December 3rd. In my opinion, not so much from covid, but from lack of care, lack of hydration, lack of food. He basically just had a slow suffering death.

JANET: We started getting concerned when they started sending emails that, like maybe 20 people were getting sick every day, they're more, right. So we keep asking. And then finally on the 19th, they said she was confirmed.

REED: The next day I got a call from Tendercare. The worker called me, said they are moving grandma to a different side of the building there because they have to isolate all of the infected residents in one place. The communication between us was cut off for a few days because we had a phone line in her room. Once she's moved, we cannot call her anymore. Three days later, when the cell phone was sent to my grandmother, she could barely talk. We can hear her making noises, but she didn't talk. We don't know what happened in the three days.

JANET: I remember for a few days we call like morning, afternoon, evening, like three, four times four or five times a day, and we still weren't able to get anybody. But I think now, looking back at that time, they must be running themselves ragged, trying just to, because I think at that time, a lot of people were gone.

REED: Once she was moved to the other side of the building abruptly, I thought something was wrong, but I didn't know what was wrong. But I could sense from the kind of rush, I think talking to the service workers, I have no response from any of the management. It wasn't until later the media interviewed a doctor who visited tender care on Sunday. That week we start to realise that we have underestimated the situation.

SILVIE: So my name is Sylvie Matthew, I'm a family physician and Long-Term Care physician in Toronto, Ontario. I worked at Tendercare in Scarborough, I believe it was December 20th, 26th and the 29th. So I was an informal physician chat group, I was asked to help sort of urgently. And so I went in the next day with the colleague.

NORMAN: Basically right from the get go they were telling me that he had no symptoms, no temperatures, no fever. The only thing they said was that he was not eating or drinking and was weak. So in hindsight, I was naive and I believed that they were doing the best. And they told me, don't worry, you know, we're going to do our best to take care of him. We will make sure they'll be fine.

SILVIE: Well, I haven't been in an environment where you have dozens and dozens of sick people on a floor at the same time, it's daunting when you when you have full staff in a long term care home, which is still, in my opinion, inadequate in most cases for the level of care that many residents need. But when you have them sicker and requiring more help and more encouragement than having less staff per resident, it just makes that even more overwhelming.

REED: A few days later, I think after Christmas, she couldn't eat, one of the Tendercare support worker told me she couldn't eat and they are about to send her to a hospital. One day after she was in the hospital, she she woke up and could speak. I called her. She cried on the phone so she couldn't drink cold water and they didn't give her warm water. She started crying the phone. They didn't give me water. I cannot drink cold water. She'ed just repeat that.

NORMAN: Like my father has dementia and it's pretty advanced. And you need to tell them you need to eat and you need to, you know, like with the aeroplane, kind of like encourage them to eat and the shortage of staff, in my opinion, that is the main cause of death in Tendercare. It is not covid. The people in there now are just suffering a slow and painful death.

SILVIE: In a situation where you have 20 something sick people on a one wing or one ward, and you have one nurse and a couple of caregivers, everybody is just doing their best to support people. Obviously, when you're limited in in time and availability per person than in any situation in health care, you are triaging.

JANET: I think starting like the 11th day, they told us that she had a fever that night. They also said her oxygen levels, she had to be given oxygen. Well, of course, we're worried because we thought she was good, because we thought she was just asymptomatic all the time. We started having more video chat with her. She looked tired, like very tired, but she was still able to kind of say hi, but she wasn't as alert as before already.

NORMAN: Wednesday, I was on my way downtown. I was driving at 1:00. They called me and they said, you know, we need to talk it over. So I pulled over and called them back and they said that we fed your dad at 11:00 this morning, we just went in and checked on them and he's not breathing. So I said, OK, well, what do you need to do? Do you need to take him to the hospital? You know, they put on a respirator? Like what do you need? And they said, well, he's not breathing. What does that mean? You're not telling me? And that's- at that point. Then she said, well, he's dead. I was kind of in shock. And then in a very matter of fact kind of way, they said, well, can you come and get his body? And I was like, I just didn't know how to respond to that. And then, you know, I guess there must have been silence for four or five seconds. And then she says, well, you don't have to give him right away, not tonight, you know something like that. In hindsight, I wish I wasn't so trusting of of them because I feel if I had taken more seriously and done something, my dad would still be here right now. And the fact that the government keeps saying, well, you know, we have an excessive number of staff right now more than normal. What does that mean when you say that is sufficient or is excessive? No, these are all subjective terms. We need to demand to know what is the exact number of staff in the building.

REED: If we could [unintelligible] the clock back, we should send the military sending RedCross at the earliest possible time when the first case was discovered. We never know they were so badly understaffed. We never know of how the residents were fed, how the sick people were treated like they just try to dodge all the questions.

JANET: A couple of days ago when the second doctor called us saying that she vomited at lunchtime and they said that's one of the symptoms of covid. And then I think the doctor was worried that maybe it's a sign that she might have pneumonia. We tried to see her a lot on the video chat because we don't want her to feel that like she's alone, that way we're still there and we're trying our best. And I think she probably felt she's been let down.

NORMAN: I really don't fault the staff there at this juncture that I lay the blame fully on the government in charge, now. You know, this treatment of our seniors, it's inhumane.

REED: She's been through the Second World War. She's been through the Japanese invasion of China. A lot of difficulties, farming so many hardships in life. We initially didn't believe covid could take her though. But, you know, it's it's very hard for us because I- I couldn't give up any chance to bring her back. But there is so little we can do. And we were kept in the dark while she was in Tendercare.

Thank you to Norman, Janet, Reed Zhao and Dr. Sylvie Mathew for sharing their experiences at the Tendercare Living Centre, 71 residents have now died at that long term care home. We also got an update from Janet about her mother in law. Sung Hing is continuing to hang on and her son has been able to go in as an essential caregiver and bring her some soup. Now, we did extend an invitation to Extendicare, the company that runs the Tendercare Living Centre, to participate in this conversation today. No one was available. Tendercare did send us a statement extending condolences to affected families. It also said that the home is now stabilising and that, in its words, staffing has been above baseline for all categories, including personal support workers, nursing, housecleaning, dietary and other staff, and that the ratio of staff is higher than it was before the December outbreak. We also invited Ontario's minister of long term care, Merrilee Fullerton, to join us, but she would not make herself available for an interview either. I'm joined now by Dr. Samir Sinha. He is an expert in long term care and the head of geriatrics at Sinai Health and the University Health Network in Toronto. Doctor, good morning to you.

SAMIR SINHA: Good morning.

MG: That it's heartbreaking hearing the voices of those family members talk about what they went through. What do you make of what you've heard?

SAMIR SINHA: I just I feel so much for just the families there who are now going to live for the rest of their lives with just the guilt, the fact that they feel that if they only knew what was really happening, that they didn't realise until it was too late how bad the situation was and just the opaqueness of the communication and as they said they don't blame the staff here. They appreciate the staff were doing the best they could. But, you know, when they're told that the staffing is adequate, but then they find out that their mother wasn't getting fed or couldn't even get hydrated, let alone receive basic care, and when you have a ratio of staffing, when the Government Film Commission now says we should be having four hours a day. But if you have one personal support worker for eight residents and every resident needs four hours a day, how is one person able to provide 32 hours of care? It just tells you the state of staffing right before the pandemic. And how even when you're saying that we're above average levels, will the average levels were always inadequate and especially in the middle of a pandemic. And so this has really been characterised by many as a humanitarian crisis. And I think this is exactly what this was.

MG: Well, then again, you hear the family members say that they feel as though they were kept in the dark. They're still trying to figure out why it is that tender care management wouldn't give them specific numbers of staff who were on duty caring for their loved ones. Is there any legitimate reason for that? Or are they right to feel as though the management of this long term care home is dodging?

SAMIR SINHA: I think every question that I heard everyone asking was an appropriate question, right. You know, if you're not allowed to come in, if you can't come in as a family member and remember that when you think about the residents who are living in our long term care homes, 90 percent of them have cognitive impairment, 70 percent of them are living with dementia. Many of the residents attend Tendercare English is not their primary language. And one of the barriers to their care was that they might be speaking their primary language and the staff couldn't understand what they were saying. And so family saying, we're making signs to make it clear that my my grandmother, my mother likes to drink hot water. Please give her hot water. When you have these challenges of just meeting basic care needs it's absolutely important to engage the families because these families know the needs and they can communicate and they can participate. But I think it's all just a symptom of an entire home that's in absolute chaos that at one point was using up to 11 different agencies and doctors, you know, Dr. Matthew there, who is calling for help on Twitter with her colleagues just to see if anybody has a spare day and a spare pair of hands get in here, because what she witnessed was just absolutely appalling.

MG: But this isn't in March. This is happening in December. This is months after covid has arrived. We're well into a second wave. Why is it that homes like tender care are still struggling?

MG: Well, the scary thing to mad is that this is tender care's third outbreak, right? This wasn't their first run at this. This is their third run at this. And what was most concerning was when the ministry finally sent in a team to kind of get a sense of what was going on. Their report that came back was shocking. It basically said that that their staff were completely overwhelmed and that staff who in some casesmweren't able to follow the regular infection prevention and control protocols, knowing how to use their personal protective equipment. And that's why you see this phenomenon where at the beginning you heard that only a handful of residents were infected and then literally day by day, more and more and more, because that only really happens, frankly, when you don't have a good handle on the situation or you're actually transmitting the virus between residents on a continual basis and hence the deaths that keep mounting even weeks after the minister saying that, you know, from her view, the home was stable now and that things were under control. It breaks my heart because I think for the family there, you know, they were with the little communication they were getting at times. You know, they were trusting. They were they were believing that, you know, that people wouldn't let what actually happened happened, that that's just not possible. But you're right. This is 10 months in. This is completely unforgivable because all of this was avoidable. And the fact of the matter is, during the second wave now we've just crossed a thousand deaths in our long term care homes. On top of the 2000 that occurred in the first wave.

MG: We were hoping to ask the minister of long term care in Ontario for her assessment of what went wrong and how to prevent similar tragedies. But as I mentioned, she would not make herself available for an interview. What does the Ontario government need to do now?

SAMIR SINHA: You know, the government needed to do all along. It needs to address the staffing issues. I think right now, you know, the government's actually now said that we're going to spend another three hundred and eighty million dollars on top of the billion they've already spent to try and stabilise the long term care situation. And that's really throwing money at these homes and saying use the money to do whatever you can, hire agencies, do whatever. But really, you know, other provinces like B.C. and Quebec, early on, B.C. basically stabilise staffing and went on a hiring spree of 7500 extra staff. Quebec did you know back in May they went out to get 10000 staff. And I'll tell you, Matt, that, you know, just as of the other day, 229 homes in Ontario, over one third of our long term care homes in Ontario in outbreak in Quebec, which had a horrible first wave, far worse than Ontario and everywhere else. As of yesterday, only 63 homes in outbreak.

MG: Do you think there's the political will in the province of Ontario to make those changes? I mean, there's also a review that's being done of long term care. And we're hearing that those who are doing the review wanted it extended so that they could cover the second wave. And the government has denied that extension. Is is there the will to make these changes?

SAMIR SINHA: I really question if there really is. I think there's a lot of the right statements being made will move heaven and earth will create an iron ring. But it really seems that we haven't really moved consistently as fast as we can. We haven't actually followed what the experts are asking. Even the long term care commission said, stop studying the staffing study, get the four hours a day in place right now. But our government, for example, when it was budget day, they carefully announced a few days ahead of time that they were going to be the gold standard of four hours a day. But then there was no money in the budget. More recently, they said we're going to do it by 2024-25, but by 2022, by the time of the election, they'll only increase it by 15 minutes a day. That's still an hour short a day. So, you could say that the government has the political will, but it seems to be as slow as molasses at the moment.

MG: Just finally, I mean, you can hear it in your voice. You know, this this well, because of the work that you have done, this is your life's work. And you sound exasperated in doing this. If you had a loved one in long term care right now in the province of Ontario, what would you do?

SAMIR SINHA: I'd absolutely pull them out. I have zero faith right now in the system, and I know that is not possible for so many families that are just who, you know, who don't even have enough care in the community to provide the support that they would. That's why their parents or their loved one went into care in the first place. But the key is, is that when you continually see the government taking half measures and really trying to tell us that everything's OK and that they've done everything possible when you know they haven't, I can't look any Ontario in the eye and say everything's fine doctors.

MG: Dr. Samir Sinha, good to speak with you, as always. Thank you.

SAMIR SINHA: Thank you so much.

MG: Doctor Samir Sinha is an expert in long term care and the head of geriatrics at Sinai Health and the University Health Network in Toronto. This is The Current on CBC Radio One, I'm Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

Starting next Saturday, there'll be a curfew from 8:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. during four weeks. So after 8:00 p.m., we won't be allowed to go out in the streets except for work. I know those measures are tough for our mental health, but we have to balance that with the situation in our hospitals. The situation is very serious.

MG: As Francois Legault, Quebec's premier, announcing a covid curfew, the first for Canada, the only exception will be for those heading into or coming home from work. The Globe and Mail's health columnist André Picard is here to talk about these lockdown measures and other issues. Andre, good morning.

ANDRE PICARD: Good morning.

MG: We are not familiar in this country with covid curfews. They're happening elsewhere, but this is the first in Canada. How effective do you think it will be?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, the first in a in a whole province, there have been little curfews in indigenous communities here and there, and of course, you mentioned around the world. It's hard to say how how effective it will be. It really depends on enforcement. It depends on buy in. And the early response seems to be mixed. People have their doubts about this because there's some tough talk as we often get from the premier, but there's many, many exceptions to this rule. So essentially, Quebec's been under this lockdown. I call it a semi lockdown for a couple of months. And nothing really changes now except this curfew and then other laws have been loosened. So people don't see this as a really dramatic change. They see it, I think, more as an irritation.

MG: We've been talking about schools and the schools will remain open. Construction, essential construction will continue. Does it seem right to you that that's happening, that ski resorts, for example, can stay open?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, it's you know, I often liken it to French grammar. French grammar has a lot of rules, but as an exception to every rule and this curfew has so many exceptions that it's hard to keep track of where there's going to be professional hockey, there's going to be skiing, there's going to be all kinds of things. We had stores closed for two months now, and now they're going to be allowed to do kerbside pickup. So for as many things we shut down, there's reopening. So it's not- it doesn't seem like more strict, which is sort of the message the government is supposed to be conveying.

MG: Do you think that other provinces should look to this approach, whether it's this kind of curfew or something even stronger?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, I think they're going to have to talk about it, because other provinces, Ontario in particular, has the same problem as Quebec, but worse, you know, Quebec a month ago had 1500 cases a day. Now it's up to more than 2500 cases a day. That's that's a big jump in a in a short period. In Ontario's case, numbers are rising even faster. Hospitals are really, really stressed in those two provinces. They're really on the brink of having to do dramatic stuff, open field hospitals. We have morgues in in trucks now, etc. So this is something has to be done. Curfews have worked in other countries, but they've only worked where their real curfews, where they're very strict. One of the things about Quebec that's striking is there's not really any limitations on travel. You know, in Melbourne, you couldn't go more than five kilometres from your home once a day. In Quebec, you can still go shopping five times a day. You can drive to the ski hill, et cetera. There's all kinds of exceptions that don't make this look like a lockdown or a real curfew.

MG: Measures like this are necessary in the race to get vaccines into the arms of Canadians. There's been a lot of criticism about the distribution of vaccines. You wrote a column saying that keeping vaccines in storage, waiting to be used as a bit like having bags of peas in a freezer. How would you assess the rollout of the vaccines from provincial governments across this country?

ANDRE PICARD: I think there's two aspects to this story. One is the vaccines that we have. We should get into people's arms as urgently as possible. And that hasn't been done. Our clinics were closed or cut back during the holidays, etc. We should have been doing this as a priority, as something urgent and the urgency wasn't there. So that's an issue. We have to use to stop that. We have the second part of it. And the provinces have been right to criticise over Ottawa, over this is there's just not very much stock. We have very few vaccines in Canada. So what's going to happen in very short order is we're going to have zero vaccines and we're going to be waiting for new shipments to come in. And that's a different problem, but it's an even worse problem.

MG: One of the other problems that governments are facing is that some members of their own cabinets have been travelling this winter internationally. And it's not just certain politicians. What else have you been tracking when it comes to Canadians travelling abroad?

ANDRE PICARD: Well, politicians are travelling. We've seen heads of public health programmes of hospitals. The elite are travelling, but there's also just a lot of ordinary people travelling. So, again, you go back to Quebec. Quebec is has a get tough curfew. But thousands of Quebecers are travelling to Cuba. Snowbirds are going to Florida. So, again, it's this mixed messaging. Are we really locked down or are we really taking this seriously? Or if we had a little bit of money, can we just take off and enjoy the sun? And when we come back- a big, big story in Quebec was that you could apply for this federal aid of a thousand dollars if you were quarantined. Now, the government in reaction has cut that off to travellers, but that sent this message early on that, you know, there's really no punishment for breaking the rules.

MG: So we're really not taking this seriously then, or seriously enough?

ANDRE PICARD: I don't think we're taking it seriously enough or people think, well, this doesn't apply to me or Cadec again, time and time again, this emphasises, well, older people, elders over 65, they have to stay in their homes. They're really in danger. And I think part of the message that's heard from younger people is, well, it's only old folks who are at risk so we can do it as we like.

MG: Andre, good to speak with you as always. And we will talk again. Appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

ANDRE PICARD: Thank you.

MG: Andre Picard, the Global Mail's health columnist. That is The Current for today. Coming up next on CBC Radio one, it's Q. Alex Trebek, beloved Jeopardy Host and of course, alumnus of CBC, was honoured with a lifetime achievement award at this year's Canadian Screen Awards. The awards were cancelled and of course, sadly, Alex Trebek died earlier this year, but he did record a speech before his passing. And you will hear that coming up on cue. It'll be nice to hear his voice again. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Take good care. And we'll talk to you again tomorrow.

Thursday January 7, 2021 Transcript

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