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The Current Transcript for January 30, 2017

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Listen to the full episode

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

I want to say a few words to our Muslim Quebecers. We are with you. This is your home. You are welcome here. We are all Quebecers.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Quebec’s premier in the small hours of this morning with a message of support and solidarity as Quebecers and Canadians absorb the news of what officials say was an act of terrorism—targeting worshippers at a Quebec City mosque. We are on that story in a moment. On a day when the debate over terror and how to confront it is raging across the US, President Donald Trump's order blocking all visa entries from seven predominantly Muslim countries through April and blocking all Syrian refugees indefinitely has created confusion beyond US borders and outcries that such a ban will embolden extremists. We're looking at that story in half an hour. And US politics has come tumbling over the border over another signature target of the new president—trade—specifically globalization.

SOUNDCLIP

I hear Trump talking about protectionism. Bernie Sanders talking about protectionism. And I can't tell the difference.

AMT: Economic globalization used to be the target of the political left. As the political right that once championed globalization starts to condemn it with the full weight of a new president behind it, we're asking whose fight is it anyway? Hear that discussion in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Quebec City reacts to lethal terrorist attack at local mosque

Guests: Marika Wheeler, Haroun Bouazzi, Sameer Zuberi

AMT: Well, police say it started just before eight o’clock last night in the Quebec City suburb of Sainte-Foy. Roughly 50 people had gathered at the Centre culturel islamique de Québec for nightly prayers when the shooting began. Witnesses say masked gunmen stormed the mosque and opened fire. One reportedly left the mosque to recharge his weapon and then came back a second time, then a third. When it ended, six worshippers were dead. Another eight injured. Two men have been arrested. Police say they do not believe anyone else was directly involved. Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard said the police investigation is just beginning.

SOUNDCLIP

It's an organized attack. We will see—we'll soon know how organized it was and how long ago and by whom, et cetera. But the fact that it's an organized attack on a specific community, I think everywhere in the world would qualify as being a terrorist act.

AMT: That is the Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard at a press conference in the small hours of this morning. Marika Wheeler with CBC News in Quebec City was on the scene at the mosque throughout the night and she joins us now from our studio in Quebec City. Hi, Marika.

MARIKA WHEELER: Good morning, Anna Maria.

AMT: Well, you were on that scene all night. What did it look like when you arrived?

MARIKA WHEELER: Yeah. When I first arrived, it was at the mosque. The police had cordoned off a large perimeter and a number of people from the Muslim community had come to that looking for answers. One man drove past. He was asking officers for some directions or some information and there was a woman inside his car and she was just weeping. And there were small children on the back seat, sitting on the back seat and he was just looking for somewhere to go for information. And that's a scene of people looking for information that I saw throughout the night in different parts of the city, of this suburb. And one part that really stays with me is at the arena in Sainte-Foy, in this neighbourhood, this is where a bus full of people who are witnesses were taken to be interrogated and spoken to by police. And there was an officer outside of this arena that was guarding the premises with a very large rifle. There were people from the Muslim community coming there looking for information. Everyone I spoke to from that community yesterday were immigrants. Some had been here for two years, some 15. One man more than 40. In one small group of men, I spoke with a man named [unintelligible] and I spoke with him just moments after he got a phone call saying that one of his best friends was one of the victims of the shooting last night and he was just shattered. This friend's wife is his children's daycare provider. He'd seen this friend that very afternoon and he was just shattered and looking at another one of his friends thinking how am I going to tell this man's wife about what’s happened?

AMT: We have a clip here, Marika. Let's just listen and you can tell us who this is.

SOUNDCLIP

[Speaking in Canadian French]

MARIKA WHEELER: That’s Majid El-Maqsood. He's another person who was looking for information yesterday. That was taken—I spoke with him there outside of the hospital in Quebec City. He's actually saying that he finds it unbelievable that someone would attack a place of worship, especially in a city like Quebec. He says he has many Quebecois friends and he feels that this is his city.

AMT: And you say you were at the hospital. What did you hear there?

MARIKA WHEELER: Media was not allowed to go into the hospital. Before that, going to the hospital, I was closer to the scene and that’s the area near the mosque and that's where I spoke with Mohamed Oudghiri. He's been living in Quebec City for 42 years. He told me his four children were born here. They were married here. They made their lives here but this is how he feels now.

SOUNDCLIP

Well, I love Quebec. Quebec, I chose it to live here but now I'm really—I’m frightened. Maybe I'm going to leave.

AMT: Wow. So that's a pretty strong reaction there. Tensions must be high.

MARIKA WHEELER: And that fear is something I heard from several people yesterday, saying I chose Quebec City because I felt it was a safe place. And now I don't feel safe. But at the arena, I also spoke with someone who was worried about the future, worried about retaliation. But I also heard from this man, [unintelligible].

SOUNDCLIP

So I think Muslim people here must be close to the rest of the Canadian and Quebecois people. And we continue together to fight this kind of, this kind of person and this kind of ideologies.

AMT: Marika, this mosque has been targeted before. What happened last June?

MARIKA WHEELER: Yes. In June of this year actually, well, this past year, someone left a pig's head wrapped up like a Christmas present or a present outside of the mosque. And that definitely upset people in the community there. And I heard from people today overnight saying that they are concerned, saying they were wondering if that investigation had been pushed further, if it would have in some way been able to stop the attacks last night.

AMT: And police have arrested two gunmen. What do we know about the suspects? What are they saying?

MARIKA WHEELER: Well, according to a police source that's close to the investigation, the two suspects could be students at Laval University, the big university here in Quebec City. And this is—so that's something we're certainly following throughout this. There are also reports that one of the two would have turned himself in to police.

AMT: And as you said, that the people who were at the mosque were taken by bus to be talked to at a separate place. They should be able to get more information from them about what actually transpired in there in those horrific moments.

MARIKA WHEELER: Of course. So this is an investigation that's been taken over by the counterterrorism unit because as you mentioned in your introduction, this is being called a terrorist attack by the province as well as by the Canadian governments.

AMT: Okay. Well, Marika Wheeler, thank you. Thank you very much.

MARIKA WHEELER: Thank you.

AMT: Marika Wheeler of CBC News in Quebec City on the scene all night talking to people about what happened at that mosque in Sainte-Foy. Messages to Muslims in Quebec are coming in from around the world, from the mayor of London, to the mayor of New York City, to the chancellor of Germany. Messages were also showing up on Haroun Bouazzi’s cell phone. He is the co-president of the Association of Muslims and Arabs for a Secular Quebec and we reached him in Paris, France where he was at the airport on his way home to Canada. Hello.

HAROUN BOUAZZI: Hi. Thank you for having me.

AMT: What is your reaction to what has happened in Quebec?

HAROUN BOUAZZI: Our first reaction was obviously a huge shock. A huge shock. We were thinking about all the families that are actually losing, lost someone from their parents or either a father or husband or a son. A lot of sadness. I talked during the entire night a lot of people from the Muslim community. Either they’re in Quebec City or other places in Quebec and I have to say you know people were crying. It was a really shock in the community. People are scared.

AMT: What questions do you have about who would do this and why?

HAROUN BOUAZZI: I mean these are things that are impossible to understand obviously. The amount of deaths, the weapons, the war situation—we're not used to this in Quebec. And it's impossible to make sense of all this blood. Now having said that, I have to say most of the people weren’t that astonished in the communities. I mean we have been seeing acts of hatred. Obviously at this stage, we have no idea who did this. But still, people you know have been seeing hatred against them. You know a window was broken or a head of a pig was delivered to that specific mosque actually. Two weeks before, someone actually in [unintelligible] for example, they made a hole in the wall of a mosque and actually tried to burn the mosque with gasoline. We've seen bullets on the window of a Halal store in Sherbrooke. So we've seen women getting you know attacked or even spit on them in the public transportation. So people have been scared for a long time.

AMT: And yet at the same time, I'm imagining that you are reeling from this news.

HAROUN BOUAZZI: Yeah. I mean I have to say for the past now 12 hours, we received a huge amount of love. A huge amount of love for all kinds of Quebecers no matter what their faith. We are actually organizing a vigil in Montreal for the people that actually died. We know that in Quebec City, in Montreal, in [unintelligible], in Sherbrooke, there is vigils actually to show that you know hatred and violence against minorities is unacceptable and we're all together in this and hopefully we’ll start just working on that, you know how we actually can build a common future more than actually how we can be divided in this very, very hard moment.

AMT: Well, Quebec has been embroiled more than other provinces on the whole issue of reasonable accommodation when it comes to religion. Do you see a connection to all of the controversy that surrounded all of those discussions?

HAROUN BOUAZZI: I mean it's hard to know what exactly happened. But obviously what we've seen is that there is all these debates actually brought a very bad environment. You know all of these situations where we never stop talking about the right of a woman of wearing a veil or not, all the situation where we actually you know talk about accommodation that didn't really even happen sometime. We should actually think about the other real problems of society and our politicians should actually start working seriously in equality and fighting all kinds of racism and Islamophobia and sexism and homophobia, not dividing us for cheap political gain.

AMT: And I'm reaching you at the airport in Paris. Of course Paris was the scene of a major multiple terror attack just over a year ago. This is Monday after the Friday of President Trump’s order suspending visas for people from seven majority Muslim countries. Are you connecting all of these things?

HAROUN BOUAZZI: I mean obviously there is links. Either terrorism is international from one side and the other side, also all the Islamophobic and the hatred responses that we can see in France, in the US, or even in Quebec, have the same kind of construction. You know we play on fear. We make people think that you know the problem is surrounding the Muslim communities and they are an inside threat. You know media plays a very important role in this. When someone does something wrong and he's black or he's Muslim, some media it’s not at all the same treatment when someone is actually not [unintelligible]. And hopefully will actually understand that all these things [inaudible] in our society either to bring people like Trump in power or even to actually enhance hatred in our society against individuals.

AMT: You know the very people who some would want us to fear are the victims of this today.

HAROUN BOUAZZI: Yeah. That’s the reality. I mean that's the only thing I think these days we should actually you know think about. You know the people that have been subject to all the blood or actually people that were you know peaceful worshippers from Muslim faith. And hopefully we'll all get together tonight in the streets all around Quebec to actually show that we’re together and this and that hopefully never again anything like this can happen in our country.

AMT: Haroun Bouazzi, I'll let you go and catch your flight. Thank you for speaking with me today.

HAROUN BOUAZZI: Thank you for having me and please peace for everyone.

AMT: Haroun Bouazzi, co-president of the Association of Muslims and Arabs for a Secular Quebec. We reached him in Paris at the airport. He's just on his way home now to Canada. Sameer Zuberi is a spokesperson for the vigil planned for Montreal this evening. He is a human rights advocate and we've reached him in Montreal. Hello.

SAMEER ZUBERI: Hi.

AMT: What are you thinking this morning?

SAMEER ZUBERI: Well, you know I was quite distressed with what happened yesterday, as many of my friends were. On social media feeds, it was very clear that people were you know processing it, were quite rattled and distressed by it. So myself, that's how I'm feeling personally.

AMT: Yeah and you've been speaking to people I guess, right, throughout the night. What kinds of things are you hearing?

SAMEER ZUBERI: Well, I mean there's definitely a deep sense of shock. There is a lot of people who are concerned about what's going on. You know people feel like they want to—what should be done so there could be some sort of productive you know output for this, response to this. So that's personally how people are feeling, how I'm feeling, how my friends are feeling and others.

AMT: Now what are you thinking about what could have motivated an attack like this?

SAMEER ZUBERI: Well, I think that you know as your previous guest was mentioning, that the discourse that's going on within society has you know been taken to an extreme degree yesterday night in those attacks, those terrorist attacks, those killings. So I think that's what really has happened and we got to be aware that the conversations we're having in society can be picked up by wrong-minded individuals and be taken to extreme ends which are completely unacceptable. And that's what we saw yesterday.

AMT: And when you talk about the conversations going on in society, how much has the ongoing controversy about reasonable accommodation been an issue then?

SAMEER ZUBERI: Well, we've been having this debate within Quebec for over 10 years and Quebec is not sealed off from the rest of the country or continent or the world. So I mean there is conversations going on within Quebec. There was conversations going on within Canada and also internationally from south of the border, Donald Trump, et cetera. So yes, certainly these three levels, these three layers are all impacting each other and leading to the sad event that happened yesterday.

AMT: Because you know my last guest was just talking about the number of attacks on mosques in Quebec over the past several months. There do not seem to be the same number of incidents in other parts of the country and I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about why we're seeing such things in Quebec?

SAMEER ZUBERI: That's true. I mean with an English Canada, we hear the conversation’s growing at the federal level. Nowadays we have a Kellie Leitch for example, who's pronouncing herself as Trump-light you know. But within Quebec, we also have others who are having similar conversations here. Politicians, pundits, even some media personalities that are you know having a very negative conversation on immigrants, on Muslims, on the place of minorities within our province. So there is a conversation going on within in English Canada and on top of that, we have a more intense conversation within Quebec. And it’s true—there are a number of hate crimes. There is crimes against property and mosques, and this time against persons, where people are losing their lives.

AMT: And you talk about intense conversations but you’re essentially saying that they get way too heated?

SAMEER ZUBERI: They do. I mean in years past, we had the Charte des valeurs, which was the values charter by the PQ government. This was from the government that was saying that we should legislate on how people dress, in particular targeting Muslims. There were people—Quebecers who had been living here for, you know were born here—were talking about leaving the province. And it wasn't just table talk. It was a serious conversation about leaving the province. And now a little while later, a few years later, we have this issue. Right? So I think the politicians here really need to have a serious conversation within themselves, amongst themselves about how do they talk about minorities? How do they talk about Muslims? And are they going to continue down this spiral to you know who knows where or they going to have finally a positive conversation?

AMT: The World Islamic body today said that the Trump visa ban in the US emboldens extremists. Do you have any thoughts on that connection?

SAMEER ZUBERI: I think not only his visa ban but also his whole conversation, his election campaign, has emboldened anybody who has any form of bigotry, misogyny, et cetera, to come on out and say whatever they could not say before publicly. So certainly, the visa ban has definitely emboldened people. But I would say that it's not only that, it's you know the type of stuff that Donald Trump is promoting in general.

AMT: Are you afraid?

SAMEER ZUBERI: I actually for the first time, I said to the organizers of the vigil last night, I said that we should have a light police presence at the vigil.

AMT: The vigil tonight.

SAMEER ZUBERI: Yes. I would not have said that in other circumstance. And I said so because you don't know who can you know come and think of doing something tragic. I don't think that will actually happen. Certainly not. But I think that it's a reasonable precaution to take. But I do feel safe in my city and my province and country.

AMT: Okay. So just briefly before I let you go, what is happening tonight at that vigil in Montreal?

SAMEER ZUBERI: Well, we're gathering at six o'clock in the city. It's been a little bit spontaneous. It's going to be, we're going to have a number of speeches. There will be about 10 people with only three short minute speeches and we're having a gathering. We do have some support from the city. And we're looking at basically having a good crowd and really coming together in solidarity to mark the passing of the lives of these people.

AMT: Sameer Zuberi, good to talk to you today. Thank you.

SAMEER ZUBERI: Thank you.

AMT: Sameer Zuberi, spokesperson for the vigil planned for Montreal this evening. We reached him in Montreal. Well, stay with us. The CBC News is next. And then we are stateside where President Donald Trump's decree suspending visa admissions to people from seven majority Muslim nations has sparked condemnation, confusion and more controversy. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM and online on www.cbc.ca/thecurrent.

[Music: Sting]

U.S. travel ban from seven Muslim-majority countries criticized for its legality

Guests: Sara, Samer Khalaf, Troy Eid

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, anti-globalization. Think back to books like No Logo and mass demonstrations against the WTO. Rallying against global trade was once the hallmark of the left. But now from Brexit to Trump, it's a message coming from the right. The curious migration of anti-globalization in half an hour. But first, decrying a presidential decree.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I have a special immigration visa in my passport, me and my family, because I work with the US government. But when I came here, they said no. They treat me as I break the rules or do something wrong.

[Sound: Protesters chanting “No hate, no fear, refugees are welcome here”]

VOICE 2: A number of people with valid visas, they got on board a plane before the executive order was issued and when they got off the plane here, they were detained. Customs and border protection people here are acting pursuant to the guidance they've gotten from Washington which apparently is not very clear guidance.

AMT: Okay. Well, Iraqi interpreter Hameed Khalid Darweesh speaking to the New York Times after being released from detention at New York's Kennedy Airport on Saturday. We also heard the Democratic Congressman Jerrold Nadler describing some of the chaos as travellers were held at airports across the US over the weekend. There were peaceful rallies at many of those airports, from New York and Chicago to Dallas and San Francisco. As many Americans turned up to protest President Donald Trump's executive order which will temporarily block people from seven predominantly Muslim countries from entering the US with visas. Those countries are Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya. There will also be a temporary ban on refugees—an indefinite ban on refugees from Syria. In signing that order Friday, President Trump was following through on one of his key campaign pledges.

SOUNDCLIP

Shall I read you the statement?

[Sound: Crowd cheering]

Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.

[Sound: Crowd cheering]

We have no choice. We have no choice.

AMT: Donald Trump on the campaign trail. According to the White House, the order is intended to “keep radical Islamic terrorists out of the US.” It says this will not apply to green card holders but that was a clarification that only came yesterday. The order went into effect immediately after Trump signed it on Friday afternoon. In Ottawa, the prime minister's office says it's received assurances that Canadian dual citizens will not be caught up in this ban. It's already having an impact on millions of people who live, work and study in the US and on their families. My next guest is one of them. We're calling her by only her first name: Sara. She is a permanent resident of the United States. She has a green card. She is a medical doctor who also has a PhD in neuroscience. She's a researcher at Columbia University and she joins us from New York. Hello.

SARA: Hi, Anna Maria.

AMT: First of all, I can't use your last name because you're worried about speaking out.

SARA: I prefer not to have my last name. I don't know. It's like all these uncertainties about everything, about the permanent residency, about me, who are the legal immigrants. It just makes me a little bit uncomfortable.

AMT: You were supposed to be in Toronto for a visit this weekend. What happened?

SARA: Yeah. Right. I was supposed to meet my good friends at Toronto and because after we heard the news about the possibility of this order to be signed, the immigration attorneys warned us not to travel outside of the US. So sadly, I cancelled my trip. And also even my [unintelligible], who she's also a medical doctor and she lives in Toronto and she had plans to go for a conference, medical conference in the US. She also has cancelled her trip already.

AMT: But now you are a permanent resident and you have a green card. Am I correct?

SARA: Yeah. Right.

AMT: So technically you should be fine, but you aren't taking any chances.

SARA: Exactly because if you follow the news, especially for like 84 hours after the signing the order, even the legal immigrants in this country, permanent residents, they were detained at the airport. So of course, I was worried for my situation too and I’m still worried.

AMT: Now you came from Iran. It is one of the countries that is on this list of residents being temporarily blocked. How does that affect you? Do you have people who are supposed to come in to see you?

SARA: My whole family lives there. My parents live there. My brother lives there. Everyone. And the saddest story of my life right now is that in 2016, my fiancé gave me a ring right in front of the Statue of Liberty—the symbol of generosity and welcoming nature of this country. And now I'm sitting here letting you know that my 68-year-old father, my 65-year-old mother, they are banned to enter this country. They won't be with me in my wedding ceremony in March. It is really heartbreaking for me. They've been waiting for the visa for almost eight months and I was hopeful that by March, they will get it and the visa process will be done. But right now, I'm just very upset. I don't even know if ever I can have them here or for any of my important events in life. So this is like tearing apart my family basically, for me.

AMT: And this ban actually is in effect right through April, so there's no way, right? I mean they've said that all visas from Iran like are not going to be processed.

SARA: Yeah, exactly. So I don't know when again I will see them. And just imagine my pain that I always think what if something happens to them? What if I need them here? What will happen to my life in this way?

AMT: How did you become a permanent resident? Why did you go to the States?

SARA: After I finished my PhD in Europe, I found a post-doctoral research position at Columbia, which I'm very honoured to work here. And then I was granted a green card because of the contribution of my work in medical field and because of the impact of my research and the science on medical society. So basically I was granted this because of whatever I had done in my life.

AMT: So they saw you as an asset.

SARA: Exactly.

AMT: And so as all of this has been unfolding this past weekend, what kind of emotions have you been feeling? What are you thinking?

SARA: I've been crying a lot. I’ve been crying almost like every hour, every time I read the news, every time I heard like something worse than the other one. And to be honest, I wasn't even sure to talk to you because I thought what if I again start to cry? But then I thought even if I cry in this program, I shouldn't be embarrassed for that. The people who have made me feel this way, they should be embarrassed.

AMT: And so what will you do now? What do you think will happen?

SARA: I don’t know. I really don't know. I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. I don't want to lose my hope. But at the same time, I'm really upset, hurt. As like looking at the bright side, my friends and colleagues in academia prepared a letter last week which became available to us to sign on Friday morning. We started to receive the support signatures on average almost like 10 emails per minute by noon, the same day on Friday. It’s a kind of very impressive rate, I think. As of last night, as I know, 37 Nobel Prize winners, they have signed the letter which is called Academics Against Immigration Executive Order. And the number of total signatures by last night was almost more than 12,000 signatures. And it’s also for me very like heartwarming seeing that all congressman or senators, they're supporting us. They go to the airport to support the detainees or they go through the process industry. It bursts me into tears when I see people who are like so kind and supportive and they march against this discrimination order.

AMT: Right. Sara, thank you for speaking with me today.

SARA: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

AMT: That is Sara. We are not using her last name because she feels uncertain about what could happen to her. She is a permanent resident now in the United States with a green card. Moved from Iran. She's a general practitioner and a neuroscientist, a researcher at Columbia University and we reached her in New York. Well, not surprisingly, this travel ban has sparked lawsuits on the grounds that it violates constitutional rights to due process and equal protection. Saturday, a federal judge in New York blocked part of the ban and so some of the people at the airport did not have to be actually turned away and put back on planes. Although the White House stands by this ban, my next guest and his organization is offering pro-bono legal advice to people concerned about the impact of the executive order. Samer Khalaf is president of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee and he joins us from Washington. Hello.

SAMER KHALAF: Good morning. How are you, Anna Maria?

AMT: Well, I'm wondering what kind of reaction your organization's been getting since President Trump signed those orders Friday afternoon.

SAMER KHALAF: Well, Anna Maria, first I'd like to offer my condolences to people of Canada and to the loved ones of the victims of the Quebec terrorist attack. I know we've had a lot of—you know it’s been a lot of terrorist attacks all over the world and we’d just like to express our solidarity with the people of Canada. The reception we've been getting, it's been mind-blowing, to be quite honest with you. Our offices have been opened all weekend. In fact, we've been going 24 hours a day. We've gotten several thousands of phone calls from people not just within the United States but also all over the world. You know confusion is rampant. People don't understand. They don't know. Who does it apply to? When will it apply? Can they come in? Should they board a plane? If they do come in, what are they going to do? The other day we had a really heartwarming call from a woman, an American woman who was fearful that her mother was going to be arriving from Uganda would not be able to come to this country and she was asking us what she should do. Uganda, of course is not affected by this ban, but this is the extent of the confusion of what's going on.

AMT: There have been so many clarifications over the weekend in terms of green card holders, permanent residents.

SAMER KHALAF: Well, it’s not just even the clarifications. It’s that the people on the ground are confused. The people that are tasked with enforcing this are confused. So we're getting sort of a hodgepodge of enforcement. Depending on where you're entering, you will be treated differently. We were getting reports that some airports were letting people in. We’re getting other reports that they were sending them back. We're getting other reports that they’re detaining them. So you know a lot of people on the ground don't know what's going on. And a problem with this executive order is that it wasn't properly vetted. It wasn't vetted. We know it’s a fact that it wasn’t vetted by Homeland Security. It wasn't vetted by the Department of Justice. It wasn't even vetted by White House Counsel. They put this together and they threw it out there and they said enforce it now. Nobody on the ground—the Department of Homeland Security didn’t have an opportunity to develop procedures about how they're going to enforce it. The airlines themselves weren't even notified. They were given literally 30 minutes to enforce and they wouldn't have an opportunity to give notice to their representatives in all the different airports. So it was complete chaos.

AMT: And so as you try to go through the chaos, let's talk about the wider meaning of this order. As he signed this order, President Trump talked of what he called new vetting measures to “keep radical Islamic terrorists out of the US.” What do you make of that goal?

SAMER KHALAF: Well, one wonders if that's an achievable goal in his mind because he has to—you know before he lists these measures, he has to be satisfied in his mind that all proper procedures are being taken care of. Well, what does that mean? We won't have any standards. So at this point, he could be renewing this ban for his entire presidency. Let me clarify one other thing which a lot of people do not realize, don't understand. The ban against visa holders—and up until recently the ban against green card holders—was not a ban just on Muslims. It was a ban on all Syrians and all Iraqis, both Muslims and Christians. In fact, we've had several instances of Christian families who are coming in and being turned away. So it's not it's not just a religious test but this was a racist ban on people coming from a specific country.

AMT: Well, in fact, one of his spokespeople Kellyanne Conway says that's proof that he's not anti-Muslim.

SAMER KHALAF: Okay. So he's not anti-Muslim but he's racist against Arabs. I mean what does she say? You know I don't like these people. I just don't like these people. I mean that that doesn't make sense at all because you know then he goes to—the second part where he talks about refugees and that refugee ban is a specific ban on Muslims because religious minorities in those countries would be exempt from the ban.

AMT: He's talking about allowing Christians in.

SAMER KHALAF: Exactly. So you have the one section that's racist against all people from the seven countries and then you have the second section that's racist only against Muslims. So he's basically being racist about everybody. There is no difference in this order.

AMT: So what are your next steps?

SAMER KHALAF: You know that's an interesting question. Right now we've been so concentrated on the immediate danger, the immediate ramifications. Those are the victims that were in transit. Those are the ones who are trying to come back. So what we need to do is at least get them sorted out right now. Try to get news to the green card holders that it is okay for you to come back. We suggest you come back immediately because God knows how this is going to change in the future. That's sort of the immediate. The long term goal is how do we fight this long term? How do we get this executive order wiped off the books? And that's a wider strategy decision that we're going have to sit down with many of our partners and we're going to have to come up with a strategy. The protests help and I think they're good but we need to move also beyond that and do other things.

AMT: Donald Trump campaigned on this. Were you surprised that this came out on Friday?

SAMER KHALAF: You know nothing surprises me anymore with Donald Trump. And that's sort of I guess the cynicism that I have as a lawyer. Yes, he said a lot of things but everybody was you know hoping at least that he was just being bombastic, that he was just saying it just to get votes. We're learning otherwise to our own detriment.

AMT: Okay, Mr. Khalaf. We have to leave it there. Thank you.

SAMER KHALAF: Sure. Thank you very much.

AMT: That is Samer Khalaf, president of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. We reached him in Washington. Well, critics call it un-American and they want it revoked but the travel ban is not without its supporters. Kellyanne Conway, counsel to President Trump, had this to say on Fox News Sunday.

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You're talking about 325,000 people from overseas came into this country just yesterday through our airports. It’s 325,000. You're talking about 300 and some who have been detained or are prevented from gaining access to an aircraft in their home countries and must stay for now. That's one per cent. And I think in terms of the upside being greater protection of our borders, of our people, it's a small price to pay. I am told by the officials that anyone has been detained, if there's no further threat, if they're not dangerous to this country, they can expect to be released in due course as most of them have already.

AMT: Okay. Well, that is Kellyanne Conway, counselor to President Trump. You heard protests in the background in part of that clip. That was part of the original Fox feed. For a different perspective on this shift in US immigration policy, I'm joined by Troy Eid. He's an attorney, former United States Attorney for the District of Colorado. He's also the first Arab-American named to any US attorney position. Earlier this month, he had a Denver Post article headlined: “Trump poised to reform America's failed immigration policies”. And Troy Eid joins us from Denver, Colorado. Hello.

TROY EID: Good morning. How are you?

AMT: I'm well. I'm wondering how you’re reacting to those who are reacting against these presidential orders.

TROY EID: Well, first of all, I want to offer my condolences for the tragedy in Quebec City. We spent our last family vacation there this summer and I really am very saddened by the tragedy there. Let me just say that I know there's a lot of emotion that's going on right now and there's certainly some confusion. There's no question though in my mind that the president is completely justified in trying to take a pause—a very short pause, I might point out—and focus on the countries that President Obama specifically said in 2015 and 2016, pose a serious terrorism related threat to the United States. I mean this is not some list of countries that Mr. Trump made up. Actually President Obama in two separate findings determined that there was a specific risk from these countries. So I think taking a pause at this point in time is very reasonable for him to do.

AMT: And of course some of those countries were always on a list of countries that support terror in the United States over many presidents. Sudan, for example.

TROY EID: Certainly so. And the pause will allow there to be some reassessment if there are other countries that need to be added or some that need to be taken off and that's just fine.

AMT: What proof is there that banning visa holders will actually lead to something concrete?

TROY EID: Well, I think you've got to look at this in context. I mean we have had plenty of public testimony, those of us who have been involved in this process before. I would refer you to Jim Comey’s testimony in front of the Congress in 2015 where the FBI director said very specifically that we had serious issues in being able to vet people from—he was speaking specifically of Syria. We need to go in and take a look and understand who's getting in. Are we having the appropriate screening processes? Are the background checks actually working? Or are we relying on countries that are not providing adequate information? And then we need a better policy. I don't think there's any debate that the policy that we have now has been a failure. So we need to focus on the security aspect of it and the implementation I think could be better. But you know that's a work in progress. And I think that there's a lot more to come.

AMT: Have there been terror attacks from people holding visas from those seven countries in the last decade?

TROY EID: Well, you've got to look at the broader context, Anna Maria. I mean we have an immigration system that number one has not had adequate background checking, demonstrated in some instances for different classifications. And we're not just talking about the refugees that are covered in part of the order or the specific seven countries that are listed as an indefinite hold during the 120 days. You know we're talking about the overall balance of the policy. I mean we have in the United States now an average waiting time for US citizenship for a person from Mexico of 18 years. We have people who've waited—this past year, we had someone who got in had to wait for 33 years. We're not adequately looking at our immigration policies.

[Crosstalk]

AMT: And I'm asking because of course, these seven countries don't include Saudi Arabia where in fact there were visa students—15 of them actually—who were responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

TROY EID: Well, they better be looking at Saudi Arabia and a lot of other countries too. I mean there’s no question that—

[Crosstalk]

AMT: But they’re not. But they’re not. They’re not on the list. So what do you make of that?

TROY EID: Well, the whole point is to have a pause. What the order says is let's have a pause and take a look and make sure that we understand number one, go where the threats based on what President Obama told us are the threats from the seven countries of concern with terrorism. And then secondly, look at the entire system. And that will not be limited to those seven countries. It would not be prudent to let the world go the way that it is now. That has produced a lot of significant issues for border security not just for the United States but for other countries as well.

AMT: As an Arab-American, how do you react to the view that blocking people from these seven Muslim majority countries is discriminatory?

TROY EID: Well, I don't see why it would be discriminatory. It's a pause as we did for Syria and President Obama did for a period of time when it was clear that we were not adequately vetting people coming into this country. He did that with Syrian refugees. This is a limited pause. They need to take a look at the procedures and the processes for how people are coming in and they need to make sure that they get it right. I would much rather have a balance where you look at it in a very dispassionate way, understand what's going on and then make changes to strengthen the security procedures and processes we have than to go and ignore the facts on the ground, as unpleasant as they sometimes might be.

AMT: And given Mr. Trump's berating of his intelligence agencies in the days leading up to taking over the presidency, do you expect he will listen to intelligence agencies on these issues?

TROY EID: Well, I don't know what to say about that. I mean you know right after the election, he went out to the CIA and spoke to the CIA. I know he sends different signals about different things. But this is not just a matter of President Trump’s statements. Like I said, I served with Jim Comey, the head of the FBI, and I know him well. When Jim Comey tells the world that we do not have adequate vetting for our country, why the heck would we disagree with that? He has need to know. He has access to information. And that's only a prudent matter. And so you know I think putting the emotion aside, focusing on what the real issues are and actually taking the time to get the policy right is in everybody's interest, including Arab-Americans’ interests.

AMT: Troy Eid, thanks for your time.

TROY EID: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

AMT: Troy Eid, attorney and former US State Attorney for the District of Colorado. The first Arab American named to any US attorney position. He joined us from Denver, Colorado. Let us know what you think of what he had to say and our other guests on this issue. You can tweet us. We’re @thecurrentCBC.

[Music: Sting]

AMT: Find us on Facebook. Go to our website, www.cbc.ca/thecurrent, click on the contact link. Remember you can listen to CBC Radio through the free app for online: www.cbc.ca/thecurrent. And coming up next, we're talking about globalization, a policy of the left now a policy—anti-globalization—of the right.

How the right trumped the left on anti-globalization

Guests: Maude Barlow, Saadia Zahidi, Gary Wolfram

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and this is The Current. I just want to let you know: Wednesday we are airing a special program that we recorded last week in Vancouver. It is the latest public forum in our series about missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. And this one's focus is on the media—how both journalists have told the story and how the arts have been used for communicating and healing. Lorelei Williams was one of my guests in that forum and you'll hear her Wednesday. She's someone who's seen this issue from a few different angles. Her cousin's DNA was found on the farm of serial killer Robert Pickton. Her aunt has been missing for years. Lorelei has done countless media interviews about her own personal story but the search for her aunt also led her to start a dance group called Butterflies in Spirit.

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My missing aunt's picture wasn't out there so I just wanted to find a way to get it out there. And for some reason, I thought of dance and it's so powerful. And I realized that right away because my mom actually passed away five days before our very first performance. And I had anxiety and I had to make the decision if I wanted to go on with the performance. And it was when we were performing during that 15 minutes when my anxiety went away and right then and there, I knew that dance was so powerful.

AMT: Lorelei Williams was one of my guests at a forum recorded in Vancouver last week. It is all about how journalists, artists and advocates have communicated the story of missing and murdered Indigenous women. You can hear that entire program Wednesday on The Current. And we continue the conversation about how the story of missing and murdered Indigenous women has been told with a web chat. Sarah Hunt is going to be my guest. She's an assistant professor in the Department of First Nations and Indigenous Studies at UBC. You can join that conversation on our website, www.cbc.ca/thecurrent, o'clock Eastern Time on Wednesday, February 1st. Now this is The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and we are talking about the fight about globalization then and now.

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[Sound: Protest]

VOICE 1: Just when you were thinking that we had entered the darkest night and that corporations were threatening to further erode our sovereignty and make it impossible for our children to experience true freedom, we rise up and we say no.

VOICE 2: If you pick up a shoe now, you have the story of globalization in your hand. You have leather that was maybe produced in Argentina, shipped to the Philippines, produced by a Korean subcontractor and went through a Hong Kong broker that was dealing with a company in Oregon.

VOICE 3: I am here because I want to protest the horrible inequality of wealth in this country.

VOICE 4: Well, I think the American public is waking up to the fact that we are giving away our democracy. We're giving away our sovereignty to a secretive group of people who make the rules and those rules are not based on our values. It’s based on trade and profit and nothing else.

AMT: Well, back in 1999, that was the sound of anti-globalization—loud, anarchic and definitely politically left leaning—including Canada's Naomi Klein who became something of a guru for the movement. Fast forward to today and it is not that you don't hear a similar anti-globalization message. It's just coming from some surprising quarters.

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Skilled craftsmen and tradespeople and factory workers have seen the jobs they love shipped thousands and thousands of miles away. Many Pennsylvania towns once thriving and humming are now in a state of total disrepair. This wave of globalization has wiped out totally, totally our middle class.

AMT: Okay. Well, that of course is the American President Donald Trump and you might hear something similar from Nigel Farage of the UK’s Brexit campaign or Marine Le Pen in France. The anti-globalization message has definitely been taken up hard by the hard right and that has left some on the left wondering how their movement escaped their grasp. We have three guests with us to share their thoughts on why that anti-globalization message has proved so popular across the globe and the political spectrum and who really owns it. Maude Barlow is the national chair for the Council of Canadians. She is the author most recently of Boiling Point: Government Neglect, Corporate Abuse and Canada's Water Crisis. Maude Barlow joins us from our Ottawa studio. Saadia Zahidi is the head of education, gender and employment with the World Economic Forum—the not-for-profit foundation that organized the Davos meeting of business, government and other big players held earlier this month. She is in Geneva. And Gary Wolfram is the William E. Simon professor of Economics and Public Policy and director of economics at Hillsdale College as well as a policy expert with the Heartland Institute, a free market think tank. He joins us from Hillsdale, Michigan. Hello everyone and welcome.

MAUDE BARLOW: Morning.

GARY WOLFRAM: Thank you for having us.

SAADIA ZAHIDI: Hi.

AMT: Saadia Zahidi, let’s start with you. How do you define globalization?

SAADIA ZAHIDI: Well, the traditional definition has included the movement of goods, of capital, of people. And I would say also ideas, with the type of digital connectivity we have in the world today.

AMT: Maude Barlow, what does globalization mean to you?

MAUDE BARLOW: Well, there’s the good and the bad. The good of course is the integration of knowledge, the sharing of information, communication, the Internet and so on. And of course standards of human rights, standards around the environment and so on. I make a huge distinction between globalization and economic globalization. To me, economic globalization is the handing over to the market of all the areas around finance, the economy, policies to do with trade and so on, which include deregulation of environmental and health standards, sometimes a war on unions and workers, the privatization of essential services and of course free trade and investment agreements that give corporations enormous power. So I would make a distinction between globalization—which I think much of which is positive—and economic globalization, which I think has created the kind of backlash that we're seeing from left to right around the world.

AMT: Gary Wolfram, we heard President Trump saying earlier that globalization has destroyed the American middle class. Is that true?

GARY WOLFRAM: No, it's not. If you look at, for example, most of the manufacturing job losses have been because we now use machines, et cetera. We substituted capital for labour. In fact, manufacturing output is 30 per cent greater in the United States today than it was in 2009, but we use significantly less workers there. In fact, the number of jobs has fallen by about five million since 2000 in the manufacturing sector but the manufacturing sector is much larger than it was.

AMT: So why do you think and what do you think of the fact that Donald Trump is using anti-globalization rhetoric in this context?

GARY WOLFRAM: Well, because I think it's a matter of what Bastiat called the seen and the unseen, a French political philosopher from the 19th century, or what Sherlock Holmes said of Watson: “The problem with you, Watson, you see but you don’t observe.” And I think a lot of people sit there and say oh gee, the 56-year-old auto worker in Dearborn has lost his job and that must be due to the fact that we're trading. But the reality is manufacturing in the United States benefits from trade in the fact more than half of the imports—about 53 per cent—are capital goods and intermediate goods. That is goods that are used in the manufacturing sector here.

AMT: So Maude Barlow, what do you think of when you hear Donald Trump campaigning against globalization?

MAUDE BARLOW: Well, I think he spoke to some truths. For instance, people in Detroit, in the Michigan areas that have lost so many jobs. And yes, Gary's right when he says that a lot of it is automation but a lot of it has been real jobs that have moved. Over a million people moved out of Detroit City for instance, inner city Detroit and left just devastation behind. Donald Trump saw that and he spoke to a truth and that is that transnational corporations, transnational capital have the ability and are using that ability to move their manufacturing around the world to places where there are either lower environmental standards or lower wages and you know terrible working conditions for the people. And he saw that. We saw that here in Canada with the devastation of our manufacturing sector and it wasn't just automation. It was many, many thousands of jobs moving away down to the low wage states of the US or Mexico and he spoke to that truth. The deep differences between him and somebody like Bernie Sanders or myself is that he then turns around and blames Mexicans, blames immigrants, blames refugees, blames the part of globalization that I would argue is good and does not touch deeply on the larger reality of which he is a part. I mean this man is a billionaire. This man has made money from exactly the kind of abuses that he's charging others with. So I would make a very deep and strong distinction between our visions and our values. But I also want to say that I think there are many people who voted for Donald Trump who are not misogynists, who are not racist, who held their nose because somebody finally spoke to their lives and said you know our lives, our communities have been hollowed out by economic globalization. And finally somebody is listening.

AMT: Okay.

MAUDE BARLOW: I think the same thing happened in Brexit.

AMT: I was just going to ask you. We can hear some of that in the UK and Europe right now.

MAUDE BARLOW: That's exactly right and I know people, very progressive people, who made a decision to vote for Brexit who are fed up with the European Union making these kind of decisions, for instance around CETA, the comprehensive economic agreement between Canada and Europe. The vast majority of Europeans don't want it. I mean there's poll after poll that just showed they do not want it. They don't want the provision of CETA, like NAFTA, that gives corporations the right to sue governments if they don't like their policies. Canada has been battered by American challenges and so people in Europe have said no to this. But it doesn't matter. The European Commission says we're moving ahead with it anyways. I think we need to understand that there's going to be a backlash against that kind of elitist globalization, that economic globalization.

AMT: Okay. Maude, let me get in here and ask you a question. So is there common ground between you and the right?

MAUDE BARLOW: No, I don't think there is and I think it's very important for us to make a distinction between the message that Donald Trump is giving and our position. But it doesn't mean that we can't understand why he would speak to some truth to people who would also understand our position. In other words, I think Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump in some ways had a very similar message but their understanding of where it came from and how they would interpret it was very, very different. But you know when you see what just happened in the United States with the ban basically on Muslims, on a whole group, this is anathema to the kind of globalization that we support. And I think it's conflating of globalization with economic globalization and I just want to say that when Prime Minister Trudeau says we're open to the world, we're not like that. Our borders are much more open and that's a good thing because we also support free trade, I would say there needs to be a distinction made there too. These trade agreements are part of the problem that has caused the kind of refugees we have in the world.

AMT: Okay. Gary Wolfram, the right has traditionally been about free market and free trade. So why are so many Republicans, right-wing Americans rallying against globalization?

GARY WOLFRAM: Well again, I think it's a matter that they are not observing how this works. I mean in 2013, the Federal Reserve Board of St. Louis did a study and they said that imports have a critical role in boosting manufacturing in the United States. People think—I mean if you probably asked the average person they think that the manufacturing sector is gone away and et cetera. And that's just not true. And in addition, people don't realize trade is between individuals. Trade is not between countries. Canada doesn't trade with the United States. The United States doesn't trade with China. Individuals trade. And the reason that you have so many things that you didn't have in 1950 is because of trade and the fact that now you can get an iPhone that part of it was produced in the United States, part of it was produced in perhaps Thailand, part of it’s produced in China. And when it comes back in, it comes as an import at the full value when in fact much of that value happened in the United States. And it wouldn't have happened if we didn't have a lower way of producing those. This sort of goes back to the idea that the sort of the Luddites, in the sense that well, we think that we shouldn't allow for machinery because it's going to replace all these jobs. The real question ought to be is why we are so slow in moving from let's say the auto worker that got laid off, why are we so slow in having them move into a skilled trades such as welding where there's a very large shortage? To me that's the issue that we ought to be focusing on, is labour market rigidity and not on banning people from making exchanges with other folks whether that's in Ohio or whether it's in Windsor or whether it's in Berlin.

AMT: So Gary Wolfram, how comfortable are you then with this? It's nationalist. It's protectionist. There are even xenophobic elements coming into play with anti-globalization in the United States. Is this dangerous?

GARY WOLFRAM: Well, I think it is. I think that the way that we interact with one another worldwide affects peace. It affects our attitudes. And this idea that well, we don't want to allow you to trade with someone else because they live in a different country or we don't want you to be able to buy your vegetables because it came from somewhere else, I think that's harmful. In fact, how do you actually get a reduction in worldwide problems when the countries are integrated in their economies? I mean China is not going to bomb the United States because if it did, 600 million people that are middle class in China who are involved in trade with the United States and around the world would be damaged. And so it puts a damper on the worldwide problems in terms of you know are we going to go to war with someone? I mean there's this old saying that no two countries ever gone to war once they had a McDonald's.

AMT: Okay. So Saadia Zahidi, I want to get you in here as you're listening to this because your organization is essentially under attack from all sides. How do you fight back? What do you say to the left? What do you say to the right?

SAADIA ZAHIDI: I think we have to not conflate the trends of the past with some of what is coming up in the future. And I think at the moment, we're in danger of conflating those things and not necessarily taking the best possible decisions. So if we look towards the past, it is true that economic globalization has led to millions and by some estimates over a billion people being lifted out of poverty, a growth in the middle class around the world. And if we put equal value on human life around the world, it has helped a lot of people. At the same time, we haven't done two things very well: one, we haven't governed it very well. We haven't governed it so that the benefits are spread equally. We have not focused on inclusive policies and we have not communicated the benefits to those that have been, that have actually received those benefits, they haven't been communicated to very well. The second thing is what is coming up in the future and I think even in the last few years we've seen this and we're going to see more and more of this with what we call the fourth industrial revolution and the changes that that will bring to labour markets. That is what we need to be preparing for at the moment. There's been a lot of investment in you know technological infrastructure, physical infrastructure, digital infrastructure. We're going to need to invest in human capital infrastructure and that is going to apply anywhere around the world because the tools of growth have changed. We are living in an innovation and knowledge-based economy. And that's what we're going to need to prepare for instead of wishing for some of the blue-collar work to come back.

AMT: Maude Barlow, I want to pick up on some of this with what you said at the beginning about economic globalization and you can talk about people being lifted out of poverty. And you can talk about the benefits of all of this. Where did the captains of industry fit into this and where does their power fit into this?

MAUDE BARLOW: They're the one per cent. I mean we know that recent studies tell us that the top one per cent in the world now have more wealth than the entire population of the rest of the world. I very strongly argue that these stats on lifting people out of extreme poverty are smoke and mirrors. If you take the international poverty line is $1.25 a day. If you put it anywhere even remotely where people could live at say $10 an hour, 80 per cent of the world would be in poverty. In fact, the United Nations says that three-quarters of the working age people of the world are what they call the precariat. They don't have decent jobs. They don't have security. They don't have pensions or benefits. They have two or three jobs holding down something. This is the legacy of the promises that were made by the World Economic Forum, by the World Bank, that this kind of economic globalization would rise, all boats and ships would all rise together. That has not been so. It has been very much so for a certain group but not for the majority of the people. And I want to say to Gary, nobody is saying we're not to trade. Canada has treated since my god, since we were sending beaver hats to Europe. Of course we trade and of course that's been a good thing and no one's even talking about not having trade rules. But these current set of trade and investment agreements give transnational corporations enormous power to tell governments what they no longer can do. And they actually give them the power to sue governments of the free trade area if they're bringing in policies that they can show are going to cause them to lose money. So I would think that we have to look at what kind of rules we want. How can we change the arc of globalization to serve people? How can we look at trade agreements and investment agreements that serve people in communities, not the other way around, and remove the power of this one per cent to dictate to the rest of us?

AMT: Well, let me ask you as well, Maude Barlow. Donald Trump talks about forcing manufacturers to do more in the United States. But his supporters also talk about a need for more deregulation. So how do you mix those two?

MAUDE BARLOW: Well, it's a very big worry for Canada. For one thing, we have lost manufacturing jobs. Manufacturing used to account for 26 per cent of our GDP. Now it's down to about 11 per cent. So for Canada, the manufacturing sector really has been decimated partly by—

AMT: Six hundred jobs just lost last week.

MAUDE BARLOW: Absolutely, absolutely. And that's directly due to NAFTA. Company’s allowed to move. GM is allowed to move to Mexico legally under the North American Free Trade Agreement. That's the kind of thing we want to renegotiate. We need a new auto pact. But I think the question for us is what kind of world we want, what kind of society and community we want. My worry now is that not only is Donald Trump going to go nationalistic and try to bring those jobs back but it's going to be done by unleashing the oil companies, fracking. They're going to frack in the national parks. They're going to go back to mountaintop coal removal. They're going to deregulate all the water laws. We're awaiting the Trudeau government here right now and it's promised to reinstate the three major water laws that were gutted under the Harper government. I don't know if we're going to do that now. I mean they're going to be told by companies in Canada if you reinstate those, if you bring in a carbon tax, if you do any of these kind of things that make us uncompetitive in Canada, we're not going to be able to stay here. So I think it's a lose-lose for Canada and I think we should come to the table with some tough talk. I would like to see our prime minister with backbone.

AMT: Saadia. I’ll get Saadia Zahidi just to respond to what you're hearing from your perspective, from where you are.

SAADIA ZAHIDI: You know I’d just really like to reiterate the point around the fact that labour markets are going to be changing. And a lot of the losses that you've seen in advanced economies for the middle classes, for this hollowing out that has happened, this polarization that is happening, four out of the five of those jobs that have been lost is because of technology and not because of economic globalization. And that is what we're going to need to prepare for and that's going to require to go back to Gary's point, we are not moving fast enough on re-skilling. We're not moving fast enough on re-educating people. And this is not just about long term changes to education systems where we'll see the payoff in 15 or 20 years. No. This is about the three billion plus people in the world that are already part of the world's workforce, that are adults, that are 15 plus years of age that are not going to go back to some of those fundamental schooling systems. We're going to need a very different approach to social safety nets and we're going to need a very different approach to re-skilling. That's what's coming up and that's what we'll need to prepare for.

AMT: Gary Wolfram then, instead of hearing what you're hearing coming out of the Trump administration, what would you like to hear?

GARY WOLFRAM: Well, first of all, I agree wholeheartedly with Saadia. I mean I think that's what we're talking about. This is not a trade problem. This is a problem of investment in human capital that is teaching people how to become welders or teaching people how to do construction. And I think the problem with the Trump approach is that okay, let's slap a 20 per cent tariff on goods coming in from Mexico. Well, what is that going to do? A, it's going to make it so that Americans are going to have to pay 20 per cent more for—maybe not exactly 20 per cent—but to pay more for imports from Mexico that are consumer goods of which only 25 per cent of imports are. But nonetheless, I mean they have less money to spend on other things at the Kroger's or whatever and you don't see the job that didn't get created at the Kroger's because we're spending more to pay for tariffs. Second of all, as I mentioned, lots of what is going on is it allows us manufacturing—and I'm sure the same is for Canada—that when a Canadian manufacturer because they can get parts or raw materials less expensively, they're able to be more competitive worldwide and they'll be able to hire people. And finally, it cannot possibly be that the 600 million people that have improved their lives in China would be better off if we stopped trading with them. You know I don't think that in general, you know jobs don't get shipped overseas. You don't see you know a crate with jobs labelled on it being loaded on ships. Capital moves. When I was a kid, made in Japan was cheap, shoddy stuff and now it’s Lexus.

AMT: Well, we have to leave it there. Thank you, all of you, for being part of this discussion.

MANY VOICES: Thank you.

AMT: Maude Barlow, national chair for the Council of Canadians and her latest book is called Boiling Point. She's in Ottawa. Saadia Zahidi, head of education, gender and employment with the World Economic Forum. She's in Geneva. Gary Wolfram, the William E. Simon professor of economics and public policy and director of economics at Hillsdale College, as well as policy expert with the Heartland Institute. He joins us from Hillsdale, Michigan. That is our program for today. Stay with Radio One for q. Tom Power is joined by some Canadian stage royalty. Fiona Reid is talking to Tom today about portraying the queen in The Audience. That's a play penned by Peter Morgan, the same writer behind the Netflix series, The Crown. And finally today after our discussion about President Trump's new extreme vetting measures of people from certain majority Muslim countries, we're going to leave you with the words of comedian Aziz Ansari. He was the first guest host of Saturday Night Live after the inauguration of Donald Trump. We'll leave you with part of his monologue. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Hate crimes and stuff are on the rise. You know as far as people of my own skin tone, brown people, I think part of the problem is a lot of these people, they just haven't interacted with any brown people in their normal life. The only people they see are these monsters in the news who are just a drop in the ocean. Maybe what needs to happen is when they do the news report, they should do a second report about some other brown people that are just up to normal stuff just to calm those people down. So the report’s like, “The suspects are considered armed and dangerous. Not armed and dangerous are these four other Muslim people that are eating nachos in Chicago. Let's go to footage of them. Uh oh, looks like Nassir just spilled a little cheese on his khakis. He got a little overambitious with that last dip. We've all been there.” A lot of people are Islamophobic, which doesn't make sense on paper because you know the God of Islam is the same God that was revealed to Abraham in Judaism and Christianity. Same God. But people are scared. Why? Because any time they watch movies and TV shows and a character's Arabic or they’re praying or something like that, that scary-ass music from Homeland is underneath it. It’s terrifying. And people are like “Ahh! What are they saying?” Just God is good, normal religion stuff. It’s okay. You want to end Islamophobia? Honestly just change that music. Like if the music was different, if it was just like [sings theme to “Yakety Sax”], people would be like man, Islam is one whimsical religion, isn’t it?

[Music: Ending theme]

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January 30, 2017 full episode transcript

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