Conservative premiers' unity means the system is working 'in a weird and twisted way,' says columnist

Guest: Chris Hall, Marie Vastel, Murray Mandryk

KS: Summer is often a time for catching up. For most of us may mean backyard barbecues with old friends or family we haven't seen in a while. For Canada's 13 premiers it means three days of meetings and in between the photo ops, the agenda typically includes discussion of common concerns, health care funding for example, or the trade barriers that keep B.C. wine out of Ontario liquor stores. But at this year's council of the federation there is another topic in the air: the upcoming federal election. The meeting begins in Saskatoon today and it's the last time the premiers will gather before the October vote. With several newly elected Conservative premiers at the table sending a firm message to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is sure to be a top priority. Our weekly national affairs panel is here to talk about what's at stake. Chris Hall is the CBC's national affairs editor and host of CBC's The House. Marie Vastel is the Parliamentary correspondent for Le Devoir. They're both in our Ottawa studio. And Murray Mandryk is the political columnist for the Regina Leader Post and he's in our Regina studio. Good morning everyone.

CHRIS HALL: Morning.

MARIE VASTEL: Good morning.

MURRAY MANDRYK: Good morning.

KS: Chris, I'm going to start with you. What can Canadians expect out of this meeting? What's the main message here?

CHRIS HALL: Well if you're talking about the political message it will be I think overwhelmed by those six premiers some the Conservative slant who believe that Justin Trudeau's government is doing the wrong thing by imposing a carbon tax. Not all them. Dennis King isn't in that crowd, a new Conservative, but clearly Jason Kenney, Doug Ford, Brian Pallister, Blaine Higgs, Scott Moe all feel that way and that's the main message they want to come out. On the other matters, things like health care. We hear that every year it's more money for that from the provinces that they would like to see from the federal government. Getting rid of those internal trade barriers, economic development. I don't expect we're going to have any major breakthroughs here, but clearly they will want to talk about those issues as well.

KS: When they start talking about trade I feel like they get into that broken record territory. They all say they want to change and then they never do anything to change. But that's another point, we'll get to that in a minute. But Chris I just want to go back to you. You know Alberta Premier Jason Kenney, he hosted a pre-meeting on Monday on the sidelines of the Calgary Stampede. Why is that important?

CHRIS HALL: Well I think because it sets the message that they want to have for Justin Trudeau before the meeting even began. It's in Alberta which is obviously the focal point of the Trans Mountain pipeline dispute with the with the federal government and with John Horgan of British Columbia. They want the message to be clear that the resource development sector that the Conservatives believe there's a better way to promote that sector as opposed to a carbon tax on emissions. These kinds of things that have separated them all along are now going to be at the forefront of this meeting.

KS: Murray I want to ask you Saskatchewan premier Scott Moe, he's the host of this year's talks, but really is he driving the agenda here?

MURRAY MANDRYK: No I don't really think he is and it's kind of not his nature, while our previous Premier Brad Wall would be the kind of politician that would take more of a forefront position. Scott Moe isn't that guy. Scott Moe is a guy that plays second fiddle to Jason Kenney and to Doug Ford to a certain extent. But all that said, I think that there is a huge emphasis by Moe and other premiers to put forward that same message as Chris describes, which is basically that we are right about the carbon tax. That was a great observation in terms of of the meeting in Calgary and what the message they were trying to send. You'll notice they were all wearing white hats as per the White Hat Ceremony, and if you're from my vintage of age that represents the good cowboy as opposed to the black hat cowboy. So I'm sure they sent Justin Trudeau a black hat. It's kind of this reinforced message all over, over, over again in Saskatchewan and Alberta that the carbon tax is bad. And at least locally in terms of local consumption it seems to be working.

KS: I was going to say, how frustrated are the people in Saskatchewan about the carbon tax?

MURRAY MANDRYK: Well they're frustrated because they need something to be frustrated about because this is the west and this is what we talk about and we do have legitimate problems in the industry. If you look at our overall economy at this very second, it's not exactly all that bad right now. There's not a huge lot of issues in Saskatchewan going on unless you want to count the controversy as to whether the Riders mascots's eyes should be black or green. You know it's that kind of time of year where it is that. That said, there is legitimate concern about the oil sector. Sadly there's an interesting argument to be made about independence, about the court case that's now proceeding to the Supreme Court in Saskatchewan Court appeal in terms of who should be making these decisions and what's right for the province and whether our solution is right. I almost think that the meeting in Calgary almost deflects from the seriousness of that message and I think people elsewhere in the country see these rather large middle-aged gentleman wearing white hats and kind of make one assumption that they don't have a legitimate message. They actually do. But there's also other messages that need to be talked about at the premiers' conference, at the conference and I hope that they don't get lost either.

KS: Marie, you know Jason Kenney, Scott Moe and Doug Ford, they have one message that they want to send to the Liberal Government about the carbon tax, but Quebec's premier Francois Legault he has a different message. Where does he fit in here?

MARIE VASTEL: Yeah. He had an interesting bit of news on Monday, before heading over to Saskatchewan, saying he too wanted to challenge the carbon tax and kind of intervene on the Saskatchewan argument side at the Supreme Court in December. For Francois Legault it is surprising, but not because he hasn't renegged the idea of carbon pricing as a valuable mechanism to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. What he's saying, he's making it all about autonomy of the provinces of respecting the province's jurisdictions as Murray was saying just before. And so in that sense it's not so much that he's joined the Conservative premiers in movement, but more that he's just defending his nationalism and the nationalism of his government. He also told my colleague who's in Saskatchewan for the Council of Federation right now that he was also thinking about joining a court challenge of C-69, that bill that we talked so much about reforming the environmental evaluation process by Ottawa. And in that case too Quebec had some reservations saying again that they thought Ottawa was impeding on their jurisdiction and that only they, Quebec, should have jurisdiction over environmental assessment. So it is surprising and it allows him to show up to the meeting as a bit, less of a lone wolf, but I don't think anyone should be illusioned thinking that he is now on board with everything Jason Kenney and his colleagues want to do because he is still very opposed to any pipeline going through his province.

KS: And how is that dynamic going to play? OK, if Premier Legault is saying okay you know what, I'm going to join this challenge but not because I sort of like that argument there, but because I want to protect you know the rights of Quebec. How does that dynamic play when Jason Kenney has so many other things on the agenda that he wants to really achieve there?

MARIE VASTEL: Well I think he also wants to you know build on that consensus against Ottawa. I mean he did say he'd campaign against Justin Trudeau. This is definitely helpful to have another one and Quebec nonetheless. And so it does help Jason Kenney I believe to have someone like Francois Legault and premier of such a big province join, and Quebec being known as a province that does believe in the environment and doing its part, but it definitely doesn't mean that they're all on the same page and when it comes to I think Jason Kenney also really wanted to hammer down this idea of an energy corridor going through Canada, an idea that Andrew Scheer the federal Conservative leader is also proposing. Well it doesn't help when someone smack in the middle of the road saying no and so I think the dynamic should be interesting, but I think Jason Kenney being an ex-federal politician is also smart enough to know that you pick your battles with Quebec three months from an election because his colleagues from the Federal Conservative Party don't need a fight with Quebec three months from the election.

KS: And Chris I want to ask you, you know we're expecting that the Conservative premiers at this meeting to really take up a lot of the space here and really dominate the conversation. What implications could that have for Andrew Scheer given that we are the conservative leader given that we are about three months from an election?

CHRIS HALL: Well that's a really important question. Jason Kenney has become the de facto spokesperson for these premiers and there's a reason for that because he has experience at the federal level. He's certainly well-known enough and he has connections with the federal Conservatives. I don't think I'm breaking any news here by saying the Conservatives would federally would probably prefer Doug Ford not be very prominent and vocal during the campaign because of his troubles. The inevitable comparisons to the kinds of cuts his government has introduced and its efforts to try to reduce spending. So it is a clear signal that the Conservatives do support having the premiers advance issues around the carbon tax for example. But as Marie points out, they really don't want to alienate Quebec because they have what a dozen seats still in Quebec and they need to hold those and if there's any chance to win they also need to do well in Ontario. So there's a bit of a tightrope here. You can't offend Doug Ford, you can't offend Francois Legault. You want to make some progress and seats that CAQ won last time or ones where the Conservatives believe they might have a chance along the north shore of the St. Lawrence. It's going to be an interesting act to follow. Jason Kenney clearly articulate in both official languages and clearly well-known here. They would prefer and are obviously I'm sure very happy that he used to come the de facto spokesperson for this group.

KS: Murray on sort of, on that same sort of question, let's flip it. Flip it around. The prime minister, you know what implications could a meeting like this, coming out of a meeting like this. If there's a strong message from these Conservative premiers and they seem united, what are the implications for Justin Trudeau?

MURRAY MANDRYK: Well in Saskatchewan and in Alberta there's not much just implications in the sense that there's not many seats up here in play for the federal election. I think there's a bigger implication though because, if not separation, the notion of Western alienation is very real and when you asked earlier what's going on in Saskatchewan and Alberta right now it is that sentiment that there's something very wrong with our system. There's something very wrong that we can't get our voice heard. And I find it bizarrely interesting, intriguing that the solution to this seems to be an alliance, but very much a political conservative alliance of premiers with very different views even representing technically different parties because we don't no longer have provincial Progressive Conservative parties except for in Ontario and elsewhere in Saskatchewan, we have the Saskatchewan Party that is the de facto Conservative Party, but they managed to come together in unity at a conference in agreement on one thing. And I'm not so sure that's the most unhealthy thing. Some people might think it is if you can only get together on how much you dislike pipelines or how much you dislike the carbon tax, or more specifically how much you dislike Justin Trudeau and want to see the Liberals defeated. But this is our democratic system, these were legitimately elected by the public and this is the message that Saskatchewan has been driving home for some time. We're duly elected to represent your interest as citizens and oh by the way we have premiers in New Brunswick, in Quebec, to a certain extent in Ontario, and certainly in Alberta that share your interests. So in a weird and twisted way I guess the system's working.

KS: Murray I want to follow up with you know you speak about sort of there's a united message here and you know that it's not unusual for four provincial premiers to gang up on federal government. And you know we certainly seen it in the past and particularly because it is an election year these premiers have things that they want to achieve and have things that they're hoping to get from Ottawa. But is there something different about the tension now?

MURRAY MANDRYK: Yeah there is. It's palpable in Saskatchewan that there's frustration with what's going on and I'm old enough to remember what was going on in the early 1980s after the NDP and everything else. Those sentiments are being regurgitated and restored by another Trudeau and that is a reoccurring message out here. There has to be something done to address this. So when Jason Kenney says something, we want to do something about the environment, but we want to do it on on our terms, I think what they're saying is they want to do it on our terms. I don't necessarily think that they're, that this is a foremost concern, but they are concerned about representing their interests in a way that they don't think the federal government is doing so in terms of both the carbon tax and and Bill C-69. So within all the rhetoric you're hearing there is some legitimacy in terms of policy and there's some legitimacy in terms of representing some real life concerns out here, even though the economy is not exactly the worst in the world or maybe quite as bad as they sometimes make it out to be. But there is real life frustration out here in Alberta and Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and certainly in certain other parts of the west.

KS: Chris if we see all of all of this friction sort of play out, are there any tangible consequences for Canadians because of the friction?

CHRIS HALL: Well you know it's all been wrapped up in the provincial jurisdiction federal jurisdiction argument, and I think that if you're a voter right now or you're just a person who is worrying about pocketbook issues the carbon tax encapsulates that and certainly all the premiers and Andrew Scheer federally have been talking about the importance of leaving money in people's pockets trying to find other ways to reduce carbon emissions. So on that level I suppose it's important to people to know we also know from our own poll, Katie, that young people in particular that climate change is a top of mind issue now. They are concerned about what the future holds. And I don't think they really are interested in fighting over what the best way to deal with it is, they just want to deal with it. And I think for all the politicians around the table in Saskatoon today that's one thing to keep in mind, the federal government at least has a plan. You may not like it but it's a plan. It's about imposing a price on carbon. What's their plan to actually achieve the results? They may have one, but it's not consistent across the board. Blaine Higgs New Brunswick is already close to a 30 percent reduction from 2005 levels which is the target. Clearly Saskatchewan is not. Alberta is not too. These are the kinds of things that I think they have to keep in mind.

MARIE VASTEL: Which is what the courts of appeal recognized right? When they sided with Ottawa, they said well you need some sort of federal oversight to ensure that it actually happens everywhere in the country and that someone actually measures that it happens. To go back to your question, Katie, about what does this mean for Justin Trudeau, as you said, I don't think it's that unusual to have provinces who disagree with Ottawa. There's a reason Stephen Harper didn't want to meet with premiers and there's a reason Justin Trudeau might be realizing his province might have been a bad idea. And it's also not unusual to have a different colour government in a province as opposed to federally right. So I think we're just seeing a switch back to the other side of that equation where now it's more conservatives om provinces and it's a federal and it's a Liberal leader at the federal government for now. What will be interesting though is that apparently these premiers are hoping to draft a letter of kind of their request ahead of the election for every federal party and it will definitely be less in line with Justin Trudeau's policies because they are all conservative, because a majority of them are conservative premiers. But I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing for Justin Trudeau. I think he would be quite happy as Chris said to campaign saying that, you know, the federal Conservatives are going to do what Doug Ford has done and in places like Ontario and Quebec where there are a lot of seats to win and where the either party who wants to win government needs to win a lot of seats. I don't think it's necessarily going to be a detriment to Justin Trudeau's campaign to have provincial Conservative politicians disagreeing with him.

KS: Quebec's controversial ban on public officials wearing religious symbols at work is also expected to come up on the sidelines of this. A court challenge has been launched and Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister said he is going to raise concerns at this week's talks. Marie, how do you think Mr. Legault will respond to pushback about this legislation?

MARIE VASTEL: I think he's very much expecting it. These people have all criticised the bill when it was adopted a few weeks ago, right? You saw everyone on Twitter from Rachel Notley to Jason Kenney to Brian Pallister actually taking up a microphone and saying it was a racist bill. I don't think there will be any surprise on the part of the Quebec delegation to hear behind closed doors that everyone or almost everyone disagrees. That being said, I think Francois Legault is very confident that in his own province, which is really all that matters to him, he does have a certain amount of popular support. And again I'm not sure we should expect a big consensus declaration blaming this bill because I think people recognize that you probably don't want to get in a fight with Quebec ahead of a federal election. But most also I think they will recognize that in Quebec it is not a unanimous position to oppose this bill even amongst Conservative members. There a Conservative MPs from Quebec who do not seem to fully disagree with this bill or at least recognize that their own constituents don't disagree with the bill. Most of the Conservative Quebec MPs are from the Quebec City region, which is a very conservative region. I think they are fully aware that this is not something they want to denounce too strongly. And you've seen, you know, Andrew Scheer and his colleagues not come out too, too strongly against this bill federally.

KS: And Chris there's one last thing I want to ask you really quickly. There's another news story that also could take up a lot of energy at this meeting and that is the news that broke last night that there's going to be about 500 people losing their jobs in Thunder Bay laid off at Bombardier.

CHRIS HALL: Right.

KS: Do you anticipate any political fallout here?

CHRIS HALL: Well I think this is from Doug Ford. It's really important because we had Oshawa close, the GM plant there closed its main assembly line and only a few jobs remain. Thunder Bay, it's a big employer. Bombardier obviously critically important as a national corporate enterprise. So if you're looking for some kind of support, what is it that that plant needs, it needs basically more government orders for railcars and they haven't materialized right now. So I'm not sure what they can do, but it does underscore that no matter how good the economy looks from a helicopter point of view, on the ground there are still pockets like Thunder Bay, like Oshawa, where jobs are disappearing and governments at all level have to have some kind of way to respond to that.

KS: Chris, Murray, Marie, thank you for your time today.

CHRIS MURRAY: Thank you.

MARIE VASTEL: Thank you.

MURRAY MANDRYK: Thank you.

KS: Chris Hill is the CBC's national affairs editor and host of The House, Marie Vastel is a parliamentary correspondent for Le Devoir and Murray Mandryk is the political columnist for the Regina Leader Post in our Regina studio. The CBC News is next and then it's Uncover: Escaping NXIVM.

[Music: Theme]

Uncover: Escaping NXIVM - Episode 3

KS: Hello. I'm Katie Simpson and you're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

KS: This week we're bringing you the CBC's award-winning investigative podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. You may have seen the headlines about the self-help group that former members call a "sex cult." Its leader was convicted last month of racketeering and sex trafficking. He drew in wealthy and powerful women such as Seagram heiress Claire Bronfman and actor Allison Mack, the star of Smallville. In the first two episodes, we met Sarah Edmondson who was once one of NXIVM's top recruiters. In this episode, we get a closer look at NXIVM's leader Keith Raniere from people who knew him intimately. Here is Uncover: Escaping NXIVM.

SOUNDCLIP

JB: Sarah has Keith Raniere’s initials burned onto her body. She gave devastating collateral to be part of what she thought was a women’s only group in NXIVM. Now Sarah is pretty sure that group, DOS, is run by Keith. What is he up to? What kind of person would do this? To try to answer this, I’m gonna cover a lot of ground, what may feel like a wild ride...but stick with me it’s worth it.

JB: I’m Josh Bloch… this is Escaping NXIVM from CBC Podcasts Uncover

JB: Chapter 3: Sex, Money and Nazis.

JV: This is V-Week…

SE: The whole thing that V-Week was pitched as, is that originally it was Keith’s birthday. Let’s create that day. Then it turned into a weekend, and then it turned into a week. My last V-week was 12 days. That’s almost a half a fucking month!

JB: Held in the Catskills in Upstate New York.

SE: The bus would pull up from the airport and you’d get out, and people would be there welcoming you...

SE: And there was Latin music playing and top 40 hits and like people leading dance parties on the lawn.

MAN: V-Week is lying in the grass looking at the stars, and holding hands. or V-Week could be...

MAN: Or V-Week could be the people.

[Music: Singing “Change the world”]

SE: I mean honestly Josh, like I learned to just assume that he... ‘cause all these things that were weird were based on the foundation that he's the most ethical humanitarian man in the world. And he wouldn't do anything that wasn't within that framework.

JB: Hi

JB: How’s it going?

JB: Oh, just a quiet place.

JB: Can you take us back to that first time you met him? Tell me about your first meeting with Keith?

JB: When Barbara Bouchey joined NXIVM back in 2000, Keith told her she was special, that he had visions about her arrival. And he dropped the classic pick up line: “Here’s a copy of my favourite Ayn Rand book.”

JB: He said: you’re my Dagny?

JB: And I’m the book’s hero, John Galt. It worked.

JB: Barbara moved to Knox Woods the neighbourhood where Keith lived near Albany, New York — near where NXIVM has its headquarters. And she became Keith’s girlfriend.

JB: Barbara is tall and imposing. She can talk about Keith for hours without coming up for air.

JB: Keith’s dad James was an advertising exec in the Mad Men era. His mom Vera was a dance teacher. They lived in Suffern, New York — a couple hours down the highway from Albany.

BB: And so he learned to become a nocturnal person because of his mother. And that in his teenage years, that he was kind of like need to watch or care for her in the evening because she would sometimes take medicine and drugs and drink. And so he had this kind of precarious relationship with his mom that was unsupervised. Keith also told me that when he was 13 years old, he believes that's when he had what he deems this transformation of himself. That’s when he believes he, quote, “became enlightened”. And his last, quote, “attachment to the outside world’ disappeared”.

BB: And this is what his father said, he said, “Barb, when he was seven or eight, we had him tested. And he was so intelligent…

BB: And he said what we did is we told Keith about how gifted and how intelligent he was. And he said it was almost like a switch went off. And suddenly overnight he turned into like Jesus Christ. And that he was superior and better than everybody like he was a deity. He said it was that [snaps] dramatic and that profound he said it went right to his head.

BB: Because dozens of young girls were calling the house and she was overhearing his conversations with them where he was telling every single woman, every single girl the same thing: I love you. You're the special one. You’re the important you're the one in my life and I love you.’ And she says, and he's saying this to different girls. He's is clearly lying ‘cause they're all not special!

HEIDI HUTCHINSON: I literally, my first sight of Keith was his rear end either going through or coming into my sister’s bedroom window.

HH: On christmas eve, in 1984…

JB: Heidi says he wasn't like other guys they knew. He was a non-conformist, and that was attractive. Gina was dating him.

JB: Heidi says even their mother bought it. But it wasn’t true. Gina eventually found out that there were others. And she was heartbroken.

Heidi and Gina would learn that Keith had multiple partners — including a polyamorous relationship with three women who became known as spiritual wives and would remain with him for decades. Years later, polyamory became part of Keith’s teachings. Like when he told Sarah and Nippy that men are inclined to have multiple partners.

JB: But Keith does not sound like your typical casanova. one of his friends at the time described him as pretty nerdy.

JB: Eric Roode is now a computer programmer in Philadelphia. But for nearly 10 years, he was one of Keith’s closest friends.

JB: Keith worked briefly for the multi-level marketing company Amway. Something about the structure of it captured his imagination. He dreamed of starting a company like it.

JB: Keith was fresh out of college. He was into yoga and eastern philosophies, and his house became a kind of hippy hang out. There always seemed to be a group of people hanging around him. Like Gina and Heidi, they were mostly young women.

JB: And Eric says there was something about the way the women were acting around Keith...

JB: One way Keith drew people to him, was with talk of the human potential movement — the idea of unlocking people’s untapped abilities and how it can bring about positive change in the world…

JB: This is an idea I’ve heard again and again. Keith listens very carefully. It’s part of his charm. He makes you feel like you are the only person in the room. That you can accomplish anything. But that he also uses the people around him for his own ends. That he wanted his own money-making machine. Heidi was there when he was working on the first part of this plan.

HH: That’s everyone, pretty much everyone’s lounging around. You know, Keith he's got a notebook or he's got a Rubik's Cube. And there was planning and plotting and packaging of Keith as this guru.

HH: I was kind of shocked that the IQ test was an open book test.

EDDIE ALBERT: [on tape] “From the beginning, America had what the whole world wanted. Opportunity. Opportunity to do more to have more, to be more…

EA: It’s fascinating the opportunities available in this country. I don’t mean fancy investments...

JB: This video features the actor Eddie Albert of the popular 1960s sitcom Green Acres and a cherub-faced Keith Raniere, dressed in a dark grey business suit and crisp white dress shirt. He’s wearing large oval wire-frame glasses. The central message: Keith is one of the smartest men in the world, and he’s inviting you to realize your dreams by becoming a partner in his company….

KR: Yes, happy to see you too.

KR: Yes, well sometimes it even amazes me. But Consumers Buyline is wonderful. And it’s working.

TN: Yeah. Oh yeah, I did. I did love him. I mean he was funny and he was smart…

TN: God gifted you with all this brilliance, why aren’t you curing cancer? why aren’t you doing something magnificent?

TN: Oh, I will be… I’m gonna change the world… don’t you want to come along?

TN: He would light it up. I mean I think that need for that admiration of all those people, you know, chanting his name and waiting for him to come on stage. And he was good, he was engaging, and people loved him. And he would do Q and A til exhaustion. And he would go all night if he needed to, just answering their questions.

TN: He has systematically replaced each of the key women with someone with more connections, um, more accolades, more money. I say that he keeps improving the last model.

JB: Nancy was a personal development coach, believer in the human potential movement, and trained in hypnotherapy.

JB: The way Toni tells it, Nancy and Keith have an epic meeting. This is in 1998. It spans four days. And when it’s over, the Executive Success Program is born. A few years later, it would be rebranded as NXIVM. We found this video of Keith talking about it online…

JB: Like Consumers Buyline, NXIVM it will have a multi-level marketing company but selling personal growth instead of dishwashers.

JB: Keith will be the resident guru and be called Vanguard. Nancy is named president and will get the decidedly less sexy title of Prefect.

JB: In 1998 — as Keith Raniere takes on the role of Vanguard — Sarah is training to be an actor at Concordia University in Montreal. She is seven years away from meeting Keith. And in those years, he will work on his new persona.

JB: He will not only promote himself as one of the smartest people in the world, but that he is enlightened. He’s not just an entrepreneur, he is now a guru. He claims to be a renunciate — someone who has given up his attachment to all material things. He doesn’t own a cell phone and is driven around by members of his inner circle. He sleeps most of the day and is up late into the night. He spends a lot of time filing patents for everything from “rational inquiry” and the “sash system” to a find-my-phone app. He greets women in NXIVM with a kiss on the lips. He crafts hundreds of personal growth workshop. He hires PR consultants and people with political connections. He wants a global reach... though he’s seen remarkably little of the world. He spends most of his time within a few kilometers of his home.

JB: The Bronfmans rarely talk to the press but in 2009, Sara and Clare spoke with Paul Vandenburgh of 1300 Talk Radio, a private radio station in Albany. Sara described her love of Nxivm.

And some of their ambitions dovetailed nicely with Keith’s…

JB: That year, in 2009, the Dalai Lama accepted an invitation to speak in Albany.

JB: Sara and Clare were key to making this happen. Watching the video of the event, you can see Sara and Clare sitting on stage with his Holiness… they are beaming.

Vanguard and Prefect sit in the front row… also beaming. Here is one of the most famous and respected spiritual leaders in the world acknowledging Keith.

JB: The next time there would be this much attention on Clare Bronfman was when she was arrested by the FBI in July of 2018 on charges including racketeering conspiracy. She has pleaded not guilty. Her lawyer says Clare was charged because the government doesn’t agree with her beliefs.

JB: To learn more about Keith, I’ve travelled to Clifton Park where NXIVM is headquartered. I’ve been trying to get in touch with anyone from NXIVM for months, but no one has responded.

My plan is to go undercover, walk in the front door and sign up for some NXIVM course. I hide a digital recorder in my breast pocket, and I leave my producers in the car. The offices are a one-story brick building with a cheap looking NXIVM sign screwed to a bulletin board out front. There are a few reserved parking spots — one for Lauren Salzman and another for Nancy. I knock on a glass door.

JB: But no one answers. I try a second door and its unlocked. So I enter…

JB: Inside there is large portrait of Vanguard and another of Prefect on the wall. There is a central meeting area with a number of adjoining offices. And there is a woman who seems very surprised to see me…

JB: Hi. Yeah, I'm here...is this the Executive Success Program?

JB: I'm, my name is Josh, I just wanted to find out about some programs. A friend of mine had taken some courses.

JB: This is not how I envisioned things going...

NXIVM EMPLOYEE: You would need to be meeting somebody, how did you get in?

NXIVM EMPLOYEE: OK, I don't know who you are meeting there is nobody here to…

JB: There is no one else around?

JB: Oh no. Who do I contact?

JB: And they would give me a contact? I don't...Someone here you mean?

JB: Oh.

JB: Okay, thank you…

SCOTT STAR: Sure!

SS: It really was always like "your salvation is right around the corner with the next class." Like what if the next... I don't know how many times I've heard, "What if the next class is the one that resolves this issue for you?"

SS: We moved most recently from North Carolina up here to be a part of the community and to do more classes and to invest in personal development and really to be more humanitarian. Do something like that in the world.

SS: So where we’ll go, is the, what they call the sports barn...

JB: Scott’s a triathlete. He’s wearing a perfectly fitted gingham button-up shirt as well as a vest. He looks like he just stepped out of an LL Bean catalogue.

JB: I finally get the geography. We are in the suburb of Clifton Park, which is just outside Albany. And within Clifton Park, there is a little neighbourhood called Knox Woods where most people in NXIVM live. Scott drives us to a spot just 10 minutes from Knox Woods, and we stop

Outside what looks like a barn. It’s a single-story, red building, made of wood and surrounded by farmers fields. Scott doesn’t want to get out of the car. He’s nervous about being spotted.

JB: If Scott wanted one on one guidance, he would come here at midnight. To watch Keith play volleyball. Every Tuesday and Thursday this is how Keith made himself available to his followers

JB: I'm trying to picture this still, so it's like it's 15, 16 in the volleyball game and then suddenly someone comes up, and it's like "my inner deficiency is this, and I can't get through it.” And so you pause the game, and he starts talking to them?

JB: Cool at the time, until he learned about another side of the company...

SS: Yeah duped. And um...like what's the word? What's the opposite of naive? Like, like more cynical.

JB: I call Sarah and let her know I'm here, in Knox Woods...

NIPPY: Hello.

JB: Hey. I’m standing in knox woods.

JB: Sarah and Nippy rented an apartment close by and spent at least a few months here every year. By the time they left NXIVM, they were in the process of finalizing plans to move here.

JB: Alright.

JB: I’m trying to see the place through Sarah’s eyes, and imagine how she saw Keith. On first glance, nothing unusual stands out here in Knox Woods. Homes that belong to NXIVM members are scattered around the neighbourhood. It’s quaint... well, it’s faux quaint like any suburb. But this is definitely not your David Koresh-hole-up-in-a-compound kinda group.

JB: Lori Christina lives here. She’s the self-appointed head of what she says is a neighbourhood watch. And she’s really watching. She’s taking me on a tour

LC: [faintly] Yeah, I think the lights are going on...

KAREN UNTERREINER: [very faint, under Josh] No, no, no.

JB: I got a wave, I got a legit wave, she thought I was someone else.

LC: I can’t give you Keith! Last time I got Keith!

LC: Just you know people when they see him watching, they’ll text me and say ‘hey, Keith’s walking’...

LC: So we’re going to loop around this way. And that is, apparently, if what Sarah remembers, is where the branding may have taken place, and it probably was the spare room…

[pause]

JB: The mothership is three drab grey row-houses on a curved street. Its ground zero of Keith’s harem….

JB: According to The FBI, Keith’s harem extended beyond the three women he lived with…

LC: Ahh!! The harem walk. I’ve seen the harem meet-up happen right in front of my condo, the girl, or the woman, coming from one direction…

BB: So what I now know is that of the 12 women, all of them but me knew about each other. I was the only one who didn't know about all of them. But all of them knew about each other and knew about me.

[pause]

BB: And over the next three days, Keith would not talk to me, but the whole army of his inner circle women are making visits. And now what they're doing is saying you know you came into this lifetime to do this. This is your calling. You're here to make a difference here. You’re the Dagny. You're his soulmate, and you're his soul-partner.

BB: It had an effect on him. Almost like someone was having an argument in the room. It would drain him of his energy. And you know he was an important man with a powerful mission.

BB: One of them would call and say Keith told us that you're having an issue. And he’s laid out flat on the couch. You just zapped him of all of his energy. Don't you realize he's here to do bigger things?

[Sound: A phone connecting]

JB: Hello. Can you hear me?

JB: hello, hello.

JB: Ok, great.

JB: I have more questions for Barbara about what life was like inside this exclusive part of NXIVM? She tells me that this group of women had a special role in making a positive difference in the world…

JB: And that’s when she starts talking about Nazis…

JB: Well, and when you say that the group was reincarnated from the Nazi era. Was he suggesting that you were in fact Nazis?

JB: And is that something that you believed or continue to believe is true?

[pause]

BB: You know I think this a study in the Buddhist religion in different kind of gurus that you know guru teachers believe that they can move an energy — the Shakra energies — within the person both by their words, their energy, their teachings. Even if you have sex you can move the called the “koodaleedee” energy.

[pause]

BB: Having intimacy with his key women gave him these extra degrees of freedom, control, influence, and the ability to manipulate the girls. Let's face it when you're in love with someone you know isn't there a famous saying that goes what you won't do, you will do for love?

BB: Are you aware that Keith had a commodities account in my name in the first year?

BB: So he says to me I have a formula to trade commodities, and I was wondering if you would experiment with me…

BB: And he says if you put down $25,000…

JB: They should both put in 25 thousand dollars to test out his formula to beat the commodities market.

JB: Are you going to be surprised to hear she agreed?

JB: So now she was in for 50 grand…

BB: He's crying. Beet red and sweating…

JB: Barbara says she lost 1.6 million dollars. But like so many other women in Keith’s life, she stuck around. And Keith didn’t stop trading on the commodities market. If Barbara had a lot of money, Sara and Clare had much more. He turned to the Bronfmans. Barbara said he pitched them on a plan to expand the reach of the company by making a fortune on the commodities market.

JB: Barbara says Keith borrowed 65 million dollars from the Bronfmans, and he lost it all. In an interview with the New York Times, Keith denied the amount was that high. Barbara says she does not know whether he ever paid it back. But she was in the room when Keith explained it was Clare’s fault he lost the money. He said Clare committed an ethical breach when she spoke with a reporter from Forbes Magazine about NXIVM. The 2003 article upset their dad Edgar Bronfman Sr. And Keith claimed as punishment, the billionaire manipulated the commodities market to ensure Keith would lose the money.

BB: My impression was that they believed him. I on the other hand, thought it was a crock of shit

WOMAN: It started very gradually. It started with a hug, Keith taught me how to hug...

WOMAN: He pulled my pelvic area close to his and said that adults hugged like that.

WOMAN: I met Keith Raniere shortly after moving to Clifton Park around 1990.

WOMAN: I was looking to make some extra money, so she got me a job stuffing envelopes. And then I got to meet Pam Cafritz and Karen and Kristen and Keith. And they offered me a job walking Pam’s dog for $5 a day, twice a day. So I started going their house to walk the dog to pick him up before school and after school. During that time I got to know Keith. He offered to tutor me in algebra and Latin. Shortly after the tutoring started a sexual relationship started between Keith and myself. It happened at various locations. Mostly at his business office, the elevator, an empty closet at Rome Plaza, in a broom closet, janitor closet, and also at the house where Pam Cafritz, Kristen and Karen lived with Keith. That relationship continued from the age of 12 until 13 when I ran away…

[pause]

SE: Mark Vincente got me in and got me out…

SE: And that's what I was like "oh my God, what am I in? What is this?" Then certain things started to click.

SE: Oh God, I was just... I was such a basket case. So this is when, this is when I stopped sleeping because I... the you know like the rug just been pulled out from underneath me. And I think it was it was in the middle of um... I was running the middle Five Day. I was running a training in Vancouver at the centre. I was in the middle of the training, going in and having to EM people. I had to just get through the training. I didn't know the magnitude of the situation. I just knew that I was... I wasn't going to continue with anything. It's like I knew, I already knew I already knew that I wanted out of DOS, now I recognized, now it made sense like Keith, you know Keith created this faux women's empowerment program within the structure of NXIVM to maintain loyalty and to feed his sex addiction.

SE: You know like that's just so not what I thought I was a part of.

Sarah: Oh God no, no I’ve never had sex with Keith. Ugh, it makes me want to barf. No offence to the women who did. It was actually one of the things that I said to people when they said look what about these allegations of a harem. I said if he had harem don’t you think I'd be in it? I know that sounds crazy. But I was like really. If he was going to hit on everybody, don’t you think he would have hit on me? And he hasn't done that. He's been nothing but polite. What I didn't understand. I mean I say that in a jokey way like in a kind of narcissistic way, but I thought really if he was such a douchebag he would have put it up there. What I don't understand, and I can't prove this is caveat my opinion, he doesn't put it out there in a traditional propositional way. He puts it out there by offering business opportunities. And I've counted... Nippy and I just counted five different things that he offered to me over the years that I didn't take him up on. It wouldn’t be like ‘hey, Keith wants to have sex with you!’ It’s ‘come to Albany, Keith is asking about you.’ When you’re in Albany, ‘come to volleyball, you coming to volleyball?

SE: I do. I do believe that was on the table and I missed it.

JB: There’s a series of videos posted online called “Conversations with Keith.” This one is with the actor Allison Mack. I can’t be certain when this video was made, but according to the FBI’s timeline, when it is posted on youtube Allison Mack is Keith Raniere’s slave in DOS.

JB: Allison and Keith are sitting across from each other at what looks like a dining room table. She is enraptured and hangs on his every word.

JB: Among its claims, the FBI says Keith was the one who created the secret women’s group. The FBI says some DOS slaves believed their collateral would be released if they didn’t follow instructions to seduce Keith. And it names Allison Mack as his co-conspirator. Her charges include sex trafficking and racketeering conspiracy. And like Keith, she has pleaded not guilty. Her lawyer tells us she disputes the alleged facts of the case. And that she expects she’ll be vindicated.

KR: But why do you think that’s so...

KR: Yes?

[applause]

JB: I was just thinking about how, you went to 12 V-Weeks, you celebrated his birthday 12 times, you were teaching his curriculum, you were making him a ton of money. When things started to change, when you realize that the organization was not what it seemed to be…

JB: For 12 years, Sarah got up on stage at V-week and thanked Vanguard. She sang “Happy Birthday” to him. It is possible that women in NXIVM created DOS — that’s the claim Keith makes in a court filing. But if the FBI allegations are true, Sarah is implicated in a group that didn’t empower women. It entrapped them. Suddenly Vanguard isn’t the smartest man in the world, with a plan to save humanity. Vanguard is just Keith, a guy in Albany who likes to control women. And Sarah is trapped.

SE: [sighs] At that time, yeah. Yeah, at that time I was afraid of him.

[Music]

KS: You've been listening to Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. Since the podcast was made NXIVM's leader Keith Ranieri was found guilty of sex trafficking and other crimes. He'll be sentenced in September. Tune in tomorrow for Episode 4 and you can listen again or catch up on any episodes that you may have missed at cbc.ca/podcasts. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for the news. Then it's Q. Tom Power's bacon number is about to hit zero. Kevin Bacon, the star of Footloose, tremors 1, 2 and 3 and many more is in to talk about his new crime drama, City on a Hill. I'm Katie Simpson. Thanks for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music: Theme]

The Current Transcript for July 10, 2019

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Prologue

Conservative premiers' unity means the system is working 'in a weird and twisted way,' says columnist

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July 10, 2019 episode transcript

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