Immigration reform needed to stop future migrant deaths, says professor

Guests: Paulina Villegas, Roger Enriquez

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The benefit of his personal visit to Canada in our territories will be very, very meaningful for those who have been struggling for their healing journey.

ROSEMARY BARTON: The pope says he is coming to Canada to offer an apology to residential school survivors later this month. In spite of health challenges and even speculation, he may step down, something he denies. The confirmation is good news to many survivors who have been waiting for this day, but there are also concerns this apology may not be enough. That's coming up in 30 minutes. And then in an hour.

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I don't drink, I don't smoke and no sex. So that's my seat. That's what I told that to my doctor. And she says she'll take the first two.

RB: Some of the secrets to living longer, apparently. We continue to bring you the podcast, Unlocking the Fountain with host Keith McArthur as he looks into what we can do to prolong our lives with our own actions. But first, a human smuggling tragedy in Texas and why this may be only the beginning. I'm Rosemary Barton in for Matt Galloway. And this is The Current.

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RB: It was the deadliest human smuggling tragedy of its kind in the United States last week in San Antonio, Texas. 53 people were found dead, trapped in a sweltering tractor trailer. A few others in the vehicle survived. The migrants were from Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. Karen Caballero is in Honduras and she lost two sons on that journey.

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[Via Translation] They were anxious to do the trip. Every day they would ask, when are we leaving? It was almost like they felt like they were going to a birthday party when they were little and would always ask, When's the party? Alejandro was anxious because he was eager to be there. He would say that he was definitely going to work over there. It made me laugh when he said, Mommy, when we are there, we will build your house. And I replied, I don't need a house anymore because you won't be here. Go and build a life for yourself through. Triumph. The hugs, the kisses, the snuggles space. Alejandro is big, but he is a big bear. He is great. And he is... My two sons.

RB: Karen Caballero sons left home in early June. Alejandro was 24. Fernando just 20. Paulina Way Villegas is a reporter for The Washington Post and she's been reporting on this. Paulina, good morning to you.

PAULINA VILLEGAS: Good morning. Thanks for having.

RB: Me. Yeah, thank you for coming. What what do you know about the people who were inside that tractor trailer?

PAULINA VILLEGAS: Well, we've been trying to piece together more and more information as the days pass by since the tragic discovery of, you know, the migrants. Actually, actually, 67 people inside of that trailer truck. And so far, we know their nationalities. We know that 27 out of the 53 who died are from Mexico, 14 from Honduras. Do, as I said, from Guatemala and El Salvador. These people are, you know, coming from remote, small villages in the mountains in different states. And we so far, you know, know that they all had in common that were coming to the US in search of a better life and, you know, tragically died in the pursuit of those dreams.

RB: And because they were coming from various countries, did they all converge in Mexico to make this trip? Do we know that?

PAULINA VILLEGAS: We don't know that yet. There are challenges to an investigation of this type. You have several smuggling rings and organisations working in Central America, in Mexico and in the United States. They could be working together in tandem or separately, you know, to organise different parts of the trip anywhere you're coming from. So we don't know exactly. They all converge in Mexico. I was reading some sources say that those coming from Central America could have flown directly to the U.S. Those from Mexico are most likely to have crossed Mexico by foot or train or the vehicles up to the border and across the border. And then probably very, you know, on the U.S. side. But those details are simply not confirmed.

RB: What do we know about the journey to Texas and why it ended as it as it did? Because that part of the story is unclear to me. We know that they died, but why did the voyage end and how were they discovered?

PAULINA VILLEGAS: I mean, we don't know exactly what happened. Again, these are like illegal activities, obviously carried and organised by, you know, illegal organisations and human smugglers and sometimes also working with drug cartels and they'll go documentations stations in in Mexico, for example. It it is a very dangerous trip. We know that, you know, the weather is extreme in the southwest border. We have summer heat temperatures that makes it even makes it even more dangerous for people travelling in this kind of way, which is using a large vehicles and trailers sometimes. And it's it's often common for smugglers to do carry or guide the migrants across the river by foot like, you know, crossing the Rio Grande. They by foot. And once they are in the U.S., keep them in stash houses. And then for these trucks to pick them up and take them to the their final destination. But this is no time to outsource.

RB: What you have been able to do, I think, is pieced together, you and your colleagues, a little bit about the victims, their families, and who was who they were and who they left behind. Can you tell us a little bit about what you heard?

PAULINA VILLEGAS: Yeah. I think it's important for us who've been covering, you know, immigration and this kind of tragic and terrible incidents to remind our readers that this is a human tragedy at the epicentre. You know, so many lives were lost. Women, children, teenagers who wanted and dreamt, were arriving in the U.S. and working. What we've heard from families is exactly that, that they all left with one dream in common, which is to get opportunities for work and, you know, the opportunity to get a better life and to help out their families back home. What we've heard from the family that we talked to is that they you know, they knew the risks. They knew the challenges and and the dangers that the journey includes and implies that they were willing to take that risk. Because, you know, the same reason that every migrant fled their home, which is just, you know, to fled poverty violence. And it's also important to remind the audience that this is a region Mexico, Central America, and obviously elsewhere in the world that's been devastated also by the pandemic. And, you know, people are just, you know, trying to look for for a better life.

RB: You know, I understand the issue of migration, but this is a, you know, as you say, a risk that these people obviously knew they were taking to get smuggled into the U.S. and they knew it was dangerous. Why are so many people from Latin America still choosing that route? Is it because there is no other way?

PAULINA VILLEGAS: Yeah. That's what they say. It's difficult to understand why people willing to take such such a risk and literally just put their lives in danger. But I think that tells you a lot about their desperation and the lack of opportunities that they see. They, you know, they find in their home country. We talked to a family in Central America who's whose two sons, one 16, the other 19. We talked to them on Thursday, I believe, and he was not sure, they had not received confirmation yet that, you know, her kids have died, but she was, their parents were pretty certain that they had, you know, perished inside of that truck. And and they said, like, I couldn't blame them because they were just trying to, you know, to get and work, find work which they can't in this small village in the mountains of Mexico. And everyone should have the right to seek for that, to work and and get a little money, you know, by this and how to help their parents. She said that I couldn't hold them back and tell them not to go.

RB: I this is a big question. But briefly, what changes to the American immigration system are these families and families like these calling for?

PAULINA VILLEGAS: Sorry. Can you repeat the question?

RB: What kind of changes are the families of those affected calling for in terms of the immigration system in the United States?

PAULINA VILLEGAS: I mean, this is an ongoing issue. And it's also important to nderline that this is albeit this is a tragic incident. It's not isolated. We've been seeing, you know, this kind of tragedies happening more and more often, both in the US and in Mexico. Only last month in Mexico, I think the authorities found three different trailer shots in three different states with random migrants inside dehydrated. Some of them had to be taken to hospital. And migrant advocates and migrant rights groups say or argue that the increasingly restrictive immigration policies are just pushing people to take even more dangerous routes and journeys, which is, they say, causing more and more tragedies.

RB: Paulina, thank you for your reporting and for sharing with us this morning. Appreciate it.

PAULINA VILLEGAS: Thank you so much.

RB: Paulina Villegas is a reporter for The Washington Post. A prayer vigil was held in San Antonio for the victims last Tuesday. Jessica Azua was one of the speakers and she spoke from personal experience.

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I just. I couldn't believe that. Here we are again. I came here when I was 14 years old in an 18 wheeler as well, and I passed out from the heat. So these kids... I was lucky that I woke up.

RB: As Jessica Azua says what happened last week in Texas was not the first tragedy of this kind. Roger Enriquez has been looking into these smuggling operations and why they are so deadly. He's an associate professor of criminology and criminal justice at the University of Texas and the executive director of Westside Community Partnerships. He is in San Antonio. Hello.

ROGER ENRIQUEZ: Good. Good morning.

RB: So what went through your mind, Roger, when you heard about this tractor trailer? With so many deaths inside?

ROGER ENRIQUEZ: Well, you know, honestly, because the heat had been sweltering in the month of June with several days above 100. I hate to say that. Unfortunately, I anticipated that something like this would could happen. We know that there are many, many of these tractor trailers that come in with human cargo. And fortunately, the folks who operate these, these are typically cartels and with very little regard for human life. So the risk becomes all the greater for this truck when the temperatures are the way they are.

RB: And I want to get to those networks and cartels. But do you have a sense of what's happening to the few people who did survive right now?

ROGER ENRIQUEZ: Well, I typically what would happen is the survivors are really key to investigate what went wrong. The we do what the government can offer them what's called T visas or U visas in order to help cooperate with authorities, stay in the country to be able to provide information to law enforcement around what happened.

RB: And who was involved, I guess, which is sort of the key question. What can you tell us about the networks or, as you said, the cartels behind these human smuggling operations?

ROGER ENRIQUEZ: Right. Well, I mean, truthfully, the success of things like the USMCA or NAFTA before it has really created these massive channels for commerce in the region. The Port of Laredo, which is just south of us, 150 miles, which is where the truck came from. $250 billion in trade. 12,000 vehicles cross daily. So this creates an opportunity not just for legitimate businesses, obviously, but for cartels and anybody else who's looking to profit or get financial gain from having using that pipeline for for human smuggling, contraband, etc.. So we know that they're very highly organised folks, not just into Mexico but all the way down to Central America and all the way into the United States as well, to be able to move these persons into and through these otherwise legitimate channels of commerce, but obviously masking themselves as produce or any other goods that typically flow through there.

RB: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like free trade. This is one of sort of the the consequences of free trade, the abuse of it as well. What are some of the ways that U.S. law enforcement is trying to stop the smugglers, or are they?

ROGER ENRIQUEZ: Well, no, they're definitely this is again, the the the the unintended consequences here abound. Right. So the idea is to attempt to kerb illegal immigration of the United States has spent billions of dollars in order to try to beef up security in the area. Right. So the idea is you're spending billions on more personnel, what's typically referred to as non-intrusive inspection technology like x rays, cameras of use of K-9 teams, horse patrols, air into interdiction, marine interdiction, you name it, they've done it. And what that's done is made that trek all the more dangerous, because you're going to attempt to really run the gauntlet, basically to try to get into the United States. Folks have to take bigger risks, take, you know, and obviously deal with elements that really no one should have to deal with.

RB: So so what is the answer then, if it's not adding on layers of, you know, enforcement? Is it prevention? Is it a broader immigration solution? What's the answer to avoiding this?

ROGER ENRIQUEZ: I mean, the answer remains the same. And it's been the same for the last 20 some odd years, which is comprehensive immigration reform to the goals of any immigration system is to create to to have opportunities for labour and also family reunification. As the stories come out, there are pushes and pulls to immigration and we're learning more. You know, some of the places where these folks were headed, they were going to reunite with aunts and uncles and folks that, you know, that they have family here. I mean, you know, people are spending anywhere from 6 to $10000 for these trips. Obviously, they're receiving support from someone. And ultimately they were trying to be reunified with an aunt or an uncle or who knows who but somebody already in the United States. So we have a lack of comprehensive immigration reform in this country because it's not dealing with two of the most basic needs of immigration, which is family reunification and creating labour.

RB: Well, and it doesn't seem as though Republicans or Democrats are willing to take that on the governor of Texas after this incident. Not surprisingly, perhaps blame President Biden and his border policy for the deaths. What do you make of that?

ROGER ENRIQUEZ: Well, I mean if you want to talk about the militarisation of the of the of the of the border, the state of Texas spent $10 billion of its own money on top of what the federal government had already spent, thereby creating a much more dangerous situation for folks who are trying to come into this country. Now, immigration law has historically been viewed as the purview of the federal government. But because this this this immigration is such a hot button issue, we're coming into an election for the governor of the state of Texas. And, of course, the you know, the stakes have been raised and folks are obviously, you know, attempting to garner some political gain from that.

RB: Four people have been arrested and charged in connexion with this particular tragedy. How often does that happen, Roger?

ROGER ENRIQUEZ: Well, I looked at the data a while back, and about 4000 folks are convicted of smuggling aliens every year, and they typically get sentences of between 16 and 20 months range. Right. So that's not very many folks. And it's not a very long sentence. Not obviously, this particular result is very unique. It's a mass casualty event most of the time where folks get caught, you know, they may get caught at a checkpoint or something along those lines. And you don't have the loss of human life. But, you know, it is I mean, you're talking just in the port of Laredo, there's 12,000 trucks that cross back and forth every day. These are I mean, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. So it's a challenge. There's no doubt about it.

RB: Are you bracing for more of these kinds of tragedies as the summer goes on? You didn't sound frankly surprised that it had happened in this instance.

ROGER ENRIQUEZ: No, I wasn't surprised. And unfortunately, we are becoming altogether too complacent. You know, as was mentioned earlier, I mean, this is a problem that's been going on. There have been years in in the Arizona desert, you know, where migrants would succumb to the heat as they tried to cross there. In our own state as well, where they try to migrate to try to cross into more isolated areas, they they've died out in the Texas desert. So, I mean, this has been going on for 20, 25 years. You know, so unfortunately, you know, this is we become somewhat desensitised to it and that's unfortunate. Tragic, really.

RB: Well, Roger, thank you. Tragic, indeed. Roger, thank you for speaking with us about it this morning to appreciate it.

ROGER ENRIQUEZ: Thank you very much.

RB: Have a good day. Roger Enriquez is an associate professor of criminology and criminal justice at the University of Texas. The CBS News is next. And then.

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He has to say, I am sorry for what happened to your people and your children. How he says it is the prevailing outstanding issue.

RB: Despite rumours of ill health cancelling the Pope's trip to Canada, the pontiff says he will be here to meet with Indigenous groups later this month. Coming up in 6 minutes, what residential school survivors say they need to hear for a meaningful apology. I'm Rosemary Barton and you are listening to The Current.

Despite health concerns, the Pope remains committed to visiting Canada later this month

Guests: Philip Pullella, Kenneth Young, Tanya Talaga

RB: Hello. I'm Rosemary Barton, and you're listening to The Current.

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RB: Still to come, building your personal Fountain of Youth, the next episode of the CBC podcast, Unlocking the Fountain in just 30 minutes. But first, the makings of a meaningful apology from Pope Francis to residential school survivors.

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[Italian speech]

RB: 'I'm still alive'. That's what Pope Francis said to Reuters correspondent Philip Pullella in the Vatican before they sat down for an exclusive interview this past weekend. In the wide ranging conversation, the Pope put rumours to rest that he was resigning.

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RB: The Pope said the thought never entered his mind, and for the moment he isn't going anywhere. The news will come as a relief to many in Canada. The pope has a long awaited visit here later this month. Philip Pullela joins us from Rome to talk more about his face to face interview with the pope. Philip, good morning.

PHILIP PULLELLA: Hi, how are you?

RB: Good. So I guess the question everyone wants to know is how did Pope Francis seem to you?

PHILIP PULLELLA: Oh, fine. No, fine. Look, he's a man with a leg problem. He's got a problem in his knee. He's already using the wheelchair less than he did before he walked into the room where we were using a cane, but without any help. There were no aides with him, and no aides stayed with him when we talked to him for about 90 minutes. Then when he left, he walked by himself to the edge of the room. There was a wheelchair waiting outside because then he has to take an elevator, go up to his apartment in the guesthouse. So he was fine. And I think he made it very, very clear that he does not want this Canada trip to go the fate of the Africa trip, which he had to cancel because he needed more rest. And so I think he's going to be very more careful. And July is normally the month that the pope takes off in the sense that he doesn't have any general audiences, private audiences rest inside the Vatican. And so between now and the time we leave, I think he'd be trying to rest as much as possible.

RB: Because you're coming to Canada with him. We should point out.

PHILIP PULLELLA: That's correct.

RB: You last interviewed him four years ago. How was he changed? Has he diminished health wise?

PHILIP PULLELLA: Well, I mean, I was looking at the pictures. He's put on a little bit of weight and I've lost a little more hair. But otherwise, you know, no. I mean, he's four years older and we're all four years older than we were before.

RB: What did he say to you about his rumoured retirement? And do you have the impression he wanted to give this interview to you to sort of do a bit of message control?

PHILIP PULLELLA: Well, I don't know about that because, I mean, basically, the fact the messages was not coming from the Vatican, but I had asked to a private contact, bypassed the entire Vatican information structures, as I did last time. That may be may be part of it because I sent a note asking for it and then he actually called me directly. I can't really answer that from his point of view. He normally doesn't really care about these kind of reports. I mean, I think basically there were really no serious rumours here. I think just, you know, some journalists just basically went a little bit overboard and connected dots that should not have been connected. And, you know, then the thing took off on its own.

RB: You talked about that trip to Africa that he had to cancel. And I guess that's where there was the concern in this country that he would cancel here. How do you think he's feeling about coming to Canada or travelling at all?

PHILIP PULLELLA: No, he's definitely coming. No, no, no. The impression that I got was definitely coming. He basically said, you know, essentially disobey the doctors before and basically walked more than he should have. And the feeling I got is is absolutely sure we're going to kind of it was. No. Basically, doctors told him if you rest you that you get therapy, etc., for another 20 days, you can go to Canada. He looked much better than he did in the past couple of weeks when he was using the wheelchair and he was able to walk. And so I think that all systems are go for Canada. He did say to me after the cameras were off and we were just sort of walking out with him and I said, I said, I'll see you on the plane then. And he said, it's going to be a long trip. But, you know, I mean, I think we're talking about distances. The distances to Africa would have been a little bit shorter. But I think the problem with Africa was not so much the distances. It's sort of like what he would have found on the ground, you know, in conditions in those two countries, the roads, etc., etc., to, you know, to just make sure that he would be able to to do it. Yeah.

RB: And he didn't talk extensively about the trip to Canada, but what is your sense of the importance of this trip and in terms of a priority for the pope in the Vatican?

PHILIP PULLELLA: Well, it's pretty you know, it's very important to him to sort of try and put this behind him in the sense of apologises, even though, you know, he was elected years after the last residential school closed. So, you know, I think he wants to make good on his promise that he made to the representatives of the native peoples who came here in March and April that he would apologise on their own, on their homeland. So he's very, very keen to do that. It is rather the report term, rather actually pretty pretty quick in the making. I mean, basically promised in April to come and and then he's come in just really, what? Just a few months later.

RB: There are a lot of expectations, as I'm as you may know here, from residential school survivors, that the apology be meaningful and that it be on behalf of the church as opposed to the behaviour of some of the the the people that committed these crimes. What would you say to them about those expectations?

PHILIP PULLELLA: From everything I can gather, I think that those commutations will be fulfilled to the people who came here, were quite happy with the way he phrased things and did, I think, apologise on behalf of the church and not for the people who committed those things. I mean, I think those two things are intertwined. I think people can split hairs on what an apology means or something. But I mean, the fact that you are, I think, coming to someone else's country after they've asked you to come to someone else's country. And the prime minister has said, you know, can you please come and apologise here? And if we get down to the house later on that evening, a bit of a stretch. I mean, I think he will I think he will satisfy most people. The people who were here were very satisfied with the amount of time that he gave them. I mean, he gave them an entire week, more or less, the various delegations, to meet with the same external groups for one week was quite something.

RB: Thanks, Philip.

PHILIP PULLELLA: Take care. Bye bye.

RB: Philip Pullela is a senior correspondent with Reuters in Rome. With the pope's visit less than three weeks away, preparations are underway for events in Alberta, Quebec and Nunavut. That's where the pope is making stops in Alberta. The pope will visit the site of a former residential school in Maskwacis and take part in the annual pilgrimage to Lac Sainte Anne. He will address those crowds expected to be in the tens of thousands. And Martin and at the plains of Abraham in Quebec City. Kenneth Young is a former regional chief for Manitoba for the Assembly of First Nations and a residential school survivor. Last month, he was part of Survivors Circle that met with a Canadian with that met with excuse me, Canadian bishops about their expectations for the pope's apology. Kenneth Young, good morning to you, sir.

KENNETH YOUNG: Good morning.

RB: So now that we know for sure the pope is coming, because I guess there had been some question about that. What's your reaction to the news that he is still going to make this visit?

KENNETH YOUNG: Well, of course, we're very happy that he's healthy enough to travel to Canada to. To to visit and to make this apology to the survivors that will be in attendance and enlist all those who will be on TV screens in various parts of the country.

RB: You are in Winnipeg where the pope is is not making a stop. Are you going to travel to any of his events later this month?

KENNETH YOUNG: I'm considering going to Edmonton. And I haven't quite made up my mind yet, but I, uh. I think I will go.

RB: And you've said you want the apology to not just be personal, but you want it to also be on behalf of the church as an institution. Why is that so important to you, Kenneth?

KENNETH YOUNG: Well, he made a commitment to walk with the survivors on a journey to reconciliation. And you would expand more on the on on the apology when you came here to First Nation territory. And I think that it's important that he apologise on behalf of the Catholic Church. He asked to acknowledge and accept responsibility for the grave harms that were caused to to. The Church participation and implementing Canada's the Indian Residential School Assimilation policy. I mean that the schools were based on Canada's policy to rid the Indian from the child. Some people said kill. I refer to it as red. Know that that was the basis of the Indian residential schools. Indian residential school system. Get rid of the Indian in the child.

RB: I know that you have done some thinking about, you know, what kind of visit the pope should have. And do you have the impression that the bishops here in this country and the Vatican did enough to consult with you and other communities about the pope's visit?

KENNETH YOUNG: Well, we had a meeting with the Catholic bishops there, and and I think it was important that the meeting take place. But what we came away from that meeting with was that we felt that the, the leaders of the Catholic Church were not prepared to be more frank and open about, like what it is that the Pope might say and an apology. Mm hmm. And in fact, they told us they had a draught apology made, and we wanted to see a copy of it and told us that it was prepared with advice from survivors that it wasn't tell us who the survivors were or gave them the advice. And so we prepared our own apology statement for His Holiness to consider whether or not this is or not, we don't know.

RB: Are you concerned, Kenneth, that this this might not live up to your expectations and the expectations of others?

KENNETH YOUNG: I'm optimistic that the. That the pope will say the right thing. I don't believe he can say that. He apologises for the wrongdoing of some people work in the church or in the schools and go back to Rome and that if he does that and says that, I would consider that the trip was was a failure.

RB: If you if you could have a moment with him, what would you tell him about your experience as a residential school survivor?

KENNETH YOUNG: Well, first of all, I. I didn't attend the Catholic. I attended two Anglican schools. But my experiences and what I saw there and left an indelible mark in my, in my life. It was not easy to get rid of what- the effects of what my experience is that to me. I, I guess I was more psychologically abused than culturally abused by what I experienced at these schools. And that came back to haunt me later in life. And I didn't realise at all. And I started thinking about what it is that caused me to behave the way like I did when I became an adult.

RB: And would you say you've moved past that yourself now?

KENNETH YOUNG: Well, you know, healing journey is ongoing.

RB: Yeah.

KENNETH YOUNG: I don't think I'll complete the journey to the satisfaction that I want it to. I want it to be. But I've come a long way. I really have.

RB: You say you went to those Anglican residential schools, but what would it mean for you personally to hear the Pope apologise on treaty land in this country?

KENNETH YOUNG: Well, for Catholic students, former students, survivors, for society as a whole, it would be wonderful if the Pope accepted on behalf of the Catholic Church responsibility for what children went through, children's families went through, their communities went through and what they're going through now would be wonderful. The Foley apologised and accepted on behalf of the church responsibility for those extremely negative impacts of the Indian Residential School for [unintelligible] life.

RB: Well, I hope you make it to Edmonton if you if you decide to go, Kenneth, and I hope it is what you want it and what you need it to be. Thank you for making the time for me this morning.

KENNETH YOUNG: I thank you for having me. I appreciate it very much.

RB: And me, too. Thank you so much. Kenneth Young is a former Manitoba regional chief for the Assembly of First Nations and a residential school survivor. The apology from The Pope is something survivors have been asking for for an awfully long time. But it's not all that indigenous communities are looking for. Tanya Talaga is an Anishinaabe columnist for the Globe and Mail. Tanya, good morning.

TANYA TALAGA: Good morning.

RB: So what are you hearing from people around you, indigenous communities about their expectations? Because certainly I know there's all sorts of expectations out there.

TANYA TALAGA: Mm hmm. I think that this is it's a bit of a divided thought as to what is going to happen. I mean, when we talk about expectations, I think that as I am not a survivor, but I am an intergenerational survivor. And I think that forgiveness is a very personal thing. And I think that so many survivors have to walk their own journey and to accept or not accept the words of the pope or any other faith leader that comes here to apologise for what happened. You know, I think that Catholicism Christianity is very divisive in our communities now as a result of the residential school experience. And so I think that the response is going to be interesting to see what actually happens. You know, many young people don't have the same faith as the older generation that grew up in community with the church. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens when the pope does apologise. I mean, because listening to those words here on treaty lands in our First Nations communities in Iqaluit, listening in Quebec, I mean, it's going to be something for all of. This was a call that was made from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission more than seven years ago for within one year of the report for an apology by the Pope to be made on Canadian soil. So this is something all of us have waited for. But it is also just can't be an apology. So much more needs to happen to bring repatriation, to bring some kind of step forward with the Catholic Church.

RB: Well, I'll ask you about what those things should be. But when I talked to Philip Pullela, who had interviewed him on the weekend, he suggested that the many people who travelled to the Vatican just months ago to talk directly to the Pope were relatively satisfied with that conversation. Was that your understanding, too, that people felt hopeful or okay coming out of that meeting, or was there also scepticism?

TANYA TALAGA: Yeah, I can't speak for every single person that came out of the meetings because again, it's such a private set of such a private experience and it's, you know, your own spirituality and what you've been through as a survivor. Many, though, wanted to be there. They wanted to be in front of the Pope. They wanted to be in his presence in order to explain and to have their voices heard by the leader of the Catholic Church. And so I think for the people that were in his audience, yes, they did feel like they were able to have their say. They were able to convey either in letters many gave letters over to the Pope or even just said what had happened to them in those meetings with with the pontiff. So I think that, you know, you could ask every single one of them how they felt actually about what happened. But everyone that was there wanted to be there. I mean, Phil Fontaine, for example, has been seeking an apology for three decades. Wilton Littlechild again. He'd been to Rome four times looking for an apology for residential schools. So this you know, it is a personal triumph for some people to be able to be there with the Pope and then also make sure that he said sorry then and is going to say it again when he gets to Canada. I mean.

RB: It's incredible that some people have had to spend so much of their. Demanding this to happen, and it seems like it's going to happen in one form or another in a few weeks. You heard there, I'm sure, Tanya, from Kenneth Young and and part of the survivors so-called circle that he's in, they yes, they want this apology, but they also want other things. Namely, this issue around the doctrine of discovery for it to be renounced. Do you think that those sorts of actions might happen here or have to happen in order for this to become meaningful?

TANYA TALAGA: I truly hope so. You know, I do know that frustration meeting. Many leaders have been having side conversations, you know, both at the Vatican and here in Canada, trying to press on those issues, saying, you know what, you need to rescind the doctrine of discovery. We also need to get all of those documents back that are being held in the Vatican and all of the records that the Vatican still has. And not to mention all of the, quote unquote, artefacts that the Vatican Museum has in its possession. You know, there are so many roads to walk in order to get to an apology. And starting by bringing back some of those objects, bringing the records back, the documents back, having a really large conversation about what those doctrines of discovery, what terra nullius meant and what it has contributed to, and the shape of Canada and the making of Canada. There is so much to apologise for and it's a long walk ahead.

RB: You've talked about that, the ceremonial items from the Vatican collection. I think you've even seen some of them. And I know that Phil Fontaine, who you just talked about there, the former chief of the event, has told this programme that a museum might be an idea. What what kinds of things did you see? What kinds of things do you think would be an important gesture for the Pope to bring with him?

TANYA TALAGA: I'd say bring it all back. You know, just to be quite frank with you. I mean, I was ready. I would have been there with a U-Haul if I was in Rome. I was with the delegation as an observer, I was, I'm a journalist and author. I'm writing a book on this. And and so, you know, and we went to the Vatican Museum. There's a section called Anima Mundi that has all indigenous artefacts, quote unquote, in a part of a private collection. And what is there is not just from Turtle Island, but from all indigenous nations, from across the globe, but pertaining to our communities. I mean, it was really quite incredible to see wampum belts, for example, that was made in 1831. It was Algonquin, Nipissing and Karnataka Mohawk. And to see that and it was from the lake of the two mountains area or Oka. And it was beautiful, made of shell and skin. And it is one of five wampum belts that I am told so that are Algonquin and actually quite a commander was the one who told me about this. And this belt is so sacred and we have so few of them here in Canada. Not to mention moccasins, an old stovepipe that is at least 200 years old. Haida masks, jewellery. It's it was incredible to see all of these beautiful pieces. You know, they're they're made from by our ancestors. They are they were made from their hands. And this thing is in Canada, although many of these objects, as ceremonial objects were banned, they were destroyed under the Indian Act, under Potlatch Bans. And here I was looking at all of these objects, and so were all of the other delegates that were with me. And, you know, it was an emotional experience for all of us. We just couldn't believe what we were seeing. And I just think that it would be such a beautiful gesture if the people delegation were to bring those objects back with them on the plane.

RB: Tanya, I only have about 30 seconds, but but as we get closer to this visit, there's lots of build-up, obviously, and expectations. What are you hoping for?

TANYA TALAGA: I hope there's truth. I hope there's truth telling. I hope that the pope listens. I hope that he reaches the people that need to hear him. And I do hope that there is finally change. I mean, this is an opportunity to go forward. This is an opportunity to bring those documents back, the records back, our grandmothers and fathers. This is an opportunity to say sorry and actually mean it. Let's back it up with action.

RB: Tanya Talaga, thank you for making time for us this morning. Appreciate it.

TANYA TALAGA: Jimme gwitch.

RB: Have a good day. Tanya Talaga is an Anishinaabe columnist with The Globe and Mail. Remember, a national Indian residential school crisis line has been set up to provide support for former students and those affected. People can access emotional and crisis referral services by calling the 24 hour national crisis line. It is 1 866 925 4419. Coming up after your regional update, we'll bring you the next episode of the CBC podcast, Unlocking the Fountain. That's happening in 90 seconds. I'm Rosemary Barton, and you're listening to The Current. Talk in a minute.

Episode 6 of Unlocking The Fountain

RB: I'm Rosemary Barton and you're listening to The Current. We're continuing our presentation of the CBC podcast, Unlocking the Fountain. Here is host Keith McArthur with Episode six exploring the science based blueprint for building your own fountain of Youth.

SOUNDCLIP

KEITH MCARTHUR: Okay. We're recording. Hi, Evelyn.

EVELYN: Hi, Keith.

KEITH MCARTHUR: How was your day so far?

EVELYN: What's that?

KEITH MCARTHUR: How is your day so far?

EVELYN: My day so far has been all right. I haven't done anything. I watch television, and at my age, they don't dare let me go out and be with people. Yet I'm not ready for people.

KEITH MCARTHUR: Because of COVID, you mean?

EVELYN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KEITH MCARTHUR: I'm chatting with Evelyn Levine, who's a few days from celebrating her 90th birthday, and for me, this is personal. I recently learnt that my biological age is about seven years older than it should be 55 years instead of my actual 48. And through a rough semi scientific calculation, I've estimated this puts my future age of death at 73. So I want to know how Evelyn has aged so successfully.

EVELYN: Okay, just tell me what you want.

KEITH MCARTHUR: The pandemic prevented me from meeting Evelyn in person at her Toronto condo, but she assures me she looks much younger than her age.

EVELYN: Not that I'm boasting in any way, shape or form, believe me. But no one but no one that has seen me will give me 98 years.

KEITH MCARTHUR: Although she's rarely smoked or drank, Evelyn's lifestyle hasn't always been exemplary.

EVELYN: Oh, you know what? I really have not gone on these crazy diets with food and whatever. And I'll be very honest with you, I'm too lazy to exercise any and I'm okay. Let's hope I keep it this long.

KEITH MCARTHUR: Why do you think that is? That you're still going strong? What's your secret?

EVELYN: If I tell you, you'll know. You'll laugh. I don't drink, I don't smoke and no sex. So that's my secret. That's what I told that to my doctor. And she says she'll take the first two. Okay.

KEITH MCARTHUR: I'm Keith MacArthur, and this is Unlocking the Fountain, a podcast about the mysteries of ageing and the scientific quest to slow, stop or reverse it. I've embraced age 73 as my potential expiration date, but not because I'm accepting it. I'm choosing to see it as a marker, one I want to beat it. So how do I do this? For Evelyn, there's surely more at play than abstaining from sex, booze and cigarettes. She appears to be one of the lucky ones with genes that have helped her avoid AIDS related diseases. I've had my genes tested, and they're not like Evelyn's, but none of this is set in stone. Well, genetics appear to be the most important factor in allowing people to live into their nineties. Researchers say lifestyle, attitude and environment play a larger role into our seventies or eighties. So I'm on a side quest. I want to put together a list grounded in science of the things I can do and the foods I should eat to maximise my lifespan and health span. While I wait for scientists to unlock their fountain of youth, I'm going to build my own.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: In 12 short years, I've turned into an old man. Well, you haven't aged at all.

VOICE 2: It stops ageing completely.

VOICE 1: Yes.

VOICE 3: How? This is what mankind has been dreaming of. Tell me the secret.

KEITH MCARTHUR: This is episode six How to Live Longer. After my kidney transplant in 2017. I was so grateful for a second chance at life that I dedicated myself to learning how to live happier and healthier. So now, whenever I talk to an expert in ageing, I ask what they've done in their own lives to try to live longer.

ALISSA APPEL: Well, I most definitely get more sleep now.

DAVID SINCLAIR: I exercise, I do weightlifting.

JAEL CHANCEY: And of course, going for frequent. Medical check ups.

KEITH MCARTHUR: That was Jael Chancey, David Sinclair and Alissa Appel, the University of California researcher who studies telomeres. She found that the stress of being a parent caregiver can add as much as the decade to your biological age. My wife, Laura and I, we relate to this. Caring for our son Bryson's complex needs takes a toll, and the chronic stress appears to have shortened both of our life spans. But Appel has newer research, which suggests that maybe we can reverse it. After her study of parents, Apple was part of a research team that brought in another group of full time caregivers. This time it was people caring for spouses with dementia.

ALISSA APPEL: So they're elderly and they're not taking care of themselves. So they tend to be overweight, they tend to be sedentary, they tend to have a lot of sadness or depressive symptoms.

KEITH MCARTHUR: And their biological age tends to be much older than it should be, as measured by telomeres, the protective caps at the ends of DNA chromosomes that are known to shrink with age. The caregivers were divided into two groups. Half of them were put on an exercise programme for six months. The other half were told they were on a waiting list for the programme.

ALISSA APPEL: And those who got the exercise actually, by the end of the six months, had telomere lengthening so that they did protect their telomeres. So in a sense, to caregivers, to people under under a lot of daily stress. Exercise is essential. Exercise is protecting ourselves from what otherwise is a stress acceleration of our ageing.

KEITH MCARTHUR: In other words, while chronic stress was speeding up, the ageing clock exercise was slowing it down. Appel and her colleagues wondered what other correlations they could find.

ALISSA APPEL: Because it's so easy to measure. There are just so many hundreds of studies on telomeres now that we know that we move them around with our daily choices.

KEITH MCARTHUR: This trove of telomere research will be a good start in building my blueprint for ageing. But it's not the only input. Well. Apple was correlating behaviours with longevity by measuring telomeres. Author Dan Buettner took a different approach. He searched the world for regions where people lived longer than average. He called these areas blue zones and identified five of them in small regions of Japan, Italy, Costa Rica, Greece and California. Buettner visited these zones with a team of doctors, scientists and demographers to identify what the people in these regions have in common. Buettner identified nine things people in these blue zones do that, he thinks, can help explain their longevity. These are behaviours related to exercise, diet and community. We'll get into these. For now, I'll just point out that much of what Buettner found is supported by other longevity research. So I overlay telomere studies and blue zones research with other scientific studies that measure which actions lead to age related diseases and early death. And when I put it all together, I start to see the outlines of a fountain. Picture a classical white fountain. Water flows up through a hidden tube in the middle and cascades down multiple tiers. Our fountain. It has three tiers. Eat right, move right. And think right. And each tier includes some unexpected recommendations. But before I get into the details, a caveat. Well, everything I mention here is grounded in science. Not all of it applies equally for everyone. What's good for the average person's health isn't always good for your health. A personal example. Boosting the immune system is good for almost everyone, but not for me, because my health depends on keeping my immunity low so my body doesn't reject my kidney. So consider what works for your own body, mind and health, and please check with a doctor before any extreme lifestyle changes. Tier one eat right. Eating right is about three things what you eat, how much you eat and when you eat. Let's start with what you eat first. Eat more plants.

DAVID SINCLAIR: I try not to eat a lot of meat.

KEITH MCARTHUR: David Sinclair from Harvard.

DAVID SINCLAIR: You know, I do like meat like most people. But I try not to overeat meat because it's been shown time and time again that vegetarianism is better for longevity.

KEITH MCARTHUR: Multiple studies have shown that vegetarians are less likely to get cancer, diabetes, heart disease and dementia than meat eaters. Some evidence suggests you can delay age related diseases even more if you add fatty fish like salmon to a vegetarian diet. Now it is possible not to eat meat and still be unhealthy. So the second rule of eating for longevity is to avoid processed foods. People in blue zones are much more likely to cook their own meals using simple ingredients. And one 2020 study found that people who consumed the highest amount of processed foods were twice as likely to have short telomeres as those who ate the least processed foods. The third recommendation for longevity eating is to cut way back on sugar and white carbs. A 2014 study from Apple's group found that daily consumption of sugary sodas takes years from your life. If you drink one standard personal sized bottle of soda each day, your telomeres will be nearly five years shorter, according to the research. But what about booze? Well, Buettner found that people in four of the blue zones drink wine regularly but moderately. Those in the fifth blue zone, the seventh Day Adventists have Loma Linda, California. They don't drink at all. Buettner recommends a glass or two each day and suggests the best time is before dinner. Booze doesn't seem to have much of a positive effect on your telomeres, but binge drinking does rob years from your life by shortening them. For the average person. A drink or maybe two probably won't hurt and might actually help. Eating right is about more than what you eat and drink. It's also about when and how much. Early in this series we learnt that the first proven method of increasing animal lifespan was starvation or at least severe caloric restriction. So should I be starving myself? I reached out to Peter Attia, a physician who has become an expert in longevity, partly by experimenting on himself. And Attia says it's complicated. While severe caloric restriction may increase longevity, it can have some serious side effects. It can lower your immune response and can lead to a dangerous loss of skeletal muscle.

PETER ATTIA: The other issue is very few people can live in a constant state of caloric deprivation. You know, if you just say, look, you're going to spend the rest of your life eating 30% below your, you know, your optimal caloric intake. So for many people uninterrupted caloric restriction, though theoretically an option turns out to be practically not one.

KEITH MCARTHUR: But there is another option. One Attia has experimented with quite a bit. Fasting. You may have friends who've tried intermittent fasting as a way to lose weight, and it can work for that. But it also seems to turn back the ageing clock. It does this by targeting emptor, the nutrient sensor built into cells. If there are enough nutrients coming in, emtor tells cells to divide. But during fasting, when there aren't enough nutrients, it tells them to pull into the pitstop to repair and recycle themselves, which slows ageing. Even if we don't fast. We may benefit from just eating less. Dan Buettner found that people in blue zones tend to eat their biggest meal early in the day and stop eating before they feel full. The people of Okinawa, Japan even have a term for this. Before each meal they say the words hara hoshi bu, which roughly translates to eat until your belly is just 80% full. There's a lot to remember in this eating tier, but it's well summed up in seven words from food writer Michael Pollan. Eat food, he writes, meaning real food, not processed. Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants. Our fountain's second here is to move, right? It's not like I didn't know exercise was good for me, but I always thought it was mostly about heart health and weight loss. But exercise wards off age related diseases to such a large extent that even scientists are still marvelled by it. A study of nearly 6000 American adults found that people who exercised five times a week for at least 30 to 40 minutes each time had a biological age nine years younger than those with a sedentary lifestyle. But does that translate into actual longevity? Absolutely. And it's not just that people who exercise have fewer heart attacks. They're also delaying almost every other age related disease, including cancers, diabetes and dementia. And the best part about exercise. You get benefits no matter what age you start. Nir Barzilai.

NIR BARZILAI: The most important thing for your audience is to know that exercise is probably the most impactful thing that you could do at any age. It's never too late to exercise. Exercise is the most important thing.

KEITH MCARTHUR: What else does the science tell us about exercise? First, the biggest longevity boost comes from moderate to intense aerobic exercise, like running or swimming. Much of the benefit appears related to putting your body through physical stress for a prolonged period of time. A leisurely walk won't cut it, but a brisk wind might. Second, there are diminishing returns. Peter Attia

PETER ATTIA: It is sort of an upside down j curve where most people under most reasonable conditions are getting a, you know, an increasing amount of benefit with increasing exercise. But above a certain point, that benefit vanishes.

KEITH MCARTHUR: The final tier of our fountain is more broad. It involves mental health, attitude and avoiding risky behaviours. I'm calling this tier think right. Let's start with mental health. We already know that stress can accelerate ageing, and it's the same with stress's regular companions, anxiety and depression. This is something else I don't like to hear. I have chronic anxiety that sometimes leads to depression. But the good news for people like us is that if we can find a medicine that treats our symptoms, it can also help our telomeres.

ALISSA APPEL: I have a colleague at UCSF who has been studying antidepressants and depression, and one thing that he found was the more years of depression, the shorter the telomeres. But that was only untreated depression. So the years on antidepressants helped or or ruled out that relationship.

KEITH MCARTHUR: It's worth remembering that not all stress is bad for us. The stress we put on our bodies by fasting or exercise appears to increase lifespan and health span. And Appel says it's the same with mental stress. Chronic stress that makes you want to hide in the bathroom isn't good for you. But short term stress that creates a little fear. But also excitement might be things like going on a first date or preparing for a big presentation. And people can learn how to respond to stress in healthier ways. Several studies have shown that meditation can lead to longer telomeres. Though a 2021 review of this study says more work needs to be done before the effect can be quantified. The final piece of the thinking right here in our fountain is about avoiding risky behaviours. Driving drunk or without a seatbelt could lower your life expectancy. So could choosing not to go for check-ups or get vaccines. But the most significant risk is one that more than one billion people on the planet still engage in, smoking. The U.S. Centre for Disease Control and Prevention says people who smoke die at least ten years earlier than those who don't. And multiple studies show that non-smokers have longer telomeres than smokers. When is it too late to make changes that can have a meaningful impact on longevity? That's different for everyone. But it's older than I would have guessed. Former smokers live longer than current smokers. People who start exercising or eating healthy and middle age live longer than those who don't. A little while after viewing his first blue zone book came out, he made another discovery. On a trip back to the Blue Zone in Ikaria, Buettner met a Greek war veteran who had lived in the United States for 40 years. While there, he was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer. He returned home to Ikaria.

DAN BUETTNER: To start living the Ikaria lifestyle and survived another 35 years or so. And he has no idea how he what he did or why he survived this terminal condition. And I had one of those aha moments, those epiphanies that I was getting it all wrong. I was looking for a pattern to pursue. And what I really needed was a blueprint for an environment so that the right behaviours ensue. And that was the big aha moment. Took me eight years.

KEITH MCARTHUR: That was the moment Buettner realised that living a blue zones lifestyle was extremely difficult for people who didn't live in a blue zones environment.

DAN BUETTNER: In blue zones, healthy plant based foods going to be cheapest and most accessible. Every time people go to work or a friend's house or out to eat, it occasions a walk. The option to implode into your room and get on your device isn't there because you don't come out for a day. Somebody is going to be knocking on your door. And the reason these these factors in blue zones work is because they're baked into the environment and they architect people's decisions unconsciously from the time they wake up. They're subtle, but there's a lot of them, and they add up to significantly better behaviours and manifestly longer life.

KEITH MCARTHUR: So Buettner decided to change his own environment, choosing to live in walkable neighbourhoods with easy access to recreation and social interactions. But not everybody has that luxury. And of course, that's the case for many of the recommendations in this episode. There's privilege in having time to exercise, go in for regular check-ups and cook unprocessed meals from scratch. It's a lot harder to do if you're stitching together multiple jobs at minimum wage. Or just a busy working parent trying to also oversee virtual school during a pandemic. Buettner recognised this to. So he began working with local governments across North America to transform communities into many blue zones by making it easier to do helpful things like walking and eating fresh vegetables and harder to do unhelpful things like driving and eating fast food.

DAN BUETTNER: We want to change the environment so the healthy choice is not only easiest, but it's unavoidable.

KEITH MCARTHUR: Buettner still believes in the nine blue zone secrets from his first book. It's just that he believes the best way to make them happen. It's about setting yourself up in the best environment, being part of the right community. It reminds me again of Evelyn Levine. In recent years, she's lost everyone she was closest to. And, of course, pandemic restrictions have made seniors even more isolated. How how does it feel now to have outlived most people your age?

EVELYN: Well, it's very, very lonesome. No friends there, none left, really. They were all gone, like you, you know. And I can't I can't get them back. So it's not easy, you know? But however, I still have family, and it's it's so I'm just very happy to be here.

KEITH MCARTHUR: But genetic predisposition and healthy living can stave off age related diseases. Staving off loneliness can be more of a challenge. But it seems like Evelyn has found a way to beat that too. Before the pandemic, she'd sit in the lobby of her condo building and knit winter hats and scarves for homeless people. Other seniors would pass through the lobby and ask what she was doing. And one by one, they joined her. The group became known as the Knitting Ladies.

EVELYN: And we have made hats. And I think up until now, we have given themq about 150 hats. Yeah. And we're still going strong. We're still knitting.

KEITH MCARTHUR: And so the 98 year old who'd beaten cancer, pneumonia and COVID 19. Also managed to find herself a purpose and a community. I don't have Evelyn's longevity genes. Heck, I probably don't have her resilience genes either. What I do have is a blueprint for a three tier fountain of youth. I need to move better, eat better, and think better, and change my environment so these things feel easier. If I can build my own fountain, I feel good about adding a decade to my life expectancy, living to 83 instead of 73. But that's still a far cry from where I started this journey with fantasies of living to 150 or even a thousand years. That's going to depend on major breakthroughs from doctors, scientists and pharmaceutical companies. And the first way humans might benefit from these interventions might not be by extending our own lives, but those of our pets. Next time on Unlocking the Fountain.

VOICE 1: Oh, yeah. I heard about you. You're trying to make dogs live long.

VOICE 2: I often get asked by cat people, you know, why are you doing this in dogs? Why are you not doing this in cats? It's a few more years that he can live and sort of experience the world, and that would be nice. It's a few more years that we can have him here because he's a really good boy.

RB: We'll hear that episode tomorrow with Keith McArthur. That's our programme for today though. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Host Tom Power speaks to actor Greg Kinnear. His latest role is as a detective trying to prove that a man deemed a serial liar by police is actually a serial killer. The series called Blackbird is inspired by a true story. I'm Rosemary Barton. Thanks so much for listening to The Current. See you back here tomorrow. Bye bye.

The Current Transcript for July 5Hred, 2022

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Prologue

Immigration reform needed to stop future migrant deaths, says professor

Despite health concerns, the Pope remains committed to visiting Canada later this month

Episode 6 of Unlocking The Fountain

Tuesday July 5, 2022 Full Transcript

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